Ingram vs. Simmons - is Simmons still a clear #1?

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Ingram played in a tougher division and played against better competition. Better teammates, better coaching, and solid stats for a guy his age at the size/weight he is on a Duke team. 16/7/2.

LSU has very sub par coaching and very average D1 players besides Simmons. He had a monster season but a lot of his highlights are against no name D1 schools. He has no jumpshot whatsoever. His attitude and response to his 1.8 GPA shows immaturity. He is not as athletic as some of these scouts put him out to be. He's got above average NBA athleticism but honestly I don't see how he's a clear #1 unless he had 2003 LeBron out of this world athleticism.

[buddha]

Ingram's frame is way too small. the physicality in the NBA will kill him.

i'd draft Buddy Hield over him.

[Cocaine80s]

Ulis is going #1 imo

[Nick Young]

Simmons must be picked exactly where the Lakers need him to be picked.

[FreezingTsmoove]

People said Jabari parker had average athleticism and he looks like a gazelle out there. People dont realize how athletic average nba athleticism is

And you said it yourself he has above average athleticism

[Human Error]

If anything, Simmons has solidified himself as a non top pick. One NBA executive got him right I think, he is more than in a mold of Even Turner and Boris Diaw rather than Lebron's or Magic Johnson's. There is also a risk Ingram is more of Austin Daye rather than Durant, but I would select Ingram if I have a top pick. We lack a truly great prospect like Karl Anthony Towns in this draft.

[pastis]

does simmons has an above average midrange/threepoint game? this is sine-qua-non for succes in todays league.

[Cocaine80s]

does simmons has an above average midrange/threepoint game? this is sine-qua-non for succes in todays league.
On a scale of 1-10 he'd be about a -4

[GreatHILL]

Simmons is a joke!

[IcanzIIravor]

This is fcking pathetic :lol

He needs professional help at this point.

[Im Still Ballin]

He needs professional help at this point.
Perth lads or what bro

[plowking]

Buddy Hield>Ingram.

[Ca$H]

Ingram played in a tougher division and played against better competition. Better teammates, better coaching, and solid stats for a guy his age at the size/weight he is on a Duke team. 16/7/2.

LSU has very sub par coaching and very average D1 players besides Simmons. He had a monster season but a lot of his highlights are against no name D1 schools. He has no jumpshot whatsoever. His attitude and response to his 1.8 GPA shows immaturity. He is not as athletic as some of these scouts put him out to be. He's got above average NBA athleticism but honestly I don't see how he's a clear #1 unless he had 2003 LeBron out of this world athleticism.

Ingram is a better fit for the Sixers and Lakers. Ingram can play SG or SF. IMO Simmons is a PF in the modern NBA.

Schr

[Fallen Angel]

If Simmons get drafted to a team with an idiot coach and no system of offense then he's bound to fail, sadly you look at the lottery teams and most of them are not well coached. Celtics are his best chance at success.

[Ca$H]

This is fcking pathetic :lol

He presents a very good argument but that is way too much time/effort spent on a message board post. At least post it as a bleacher report article.

[Ca$H]

If Simmons get drafted to a team with an idiot coach and no system of offense then he's bound to fail, sadly you look at the lottery teams and most of them are not well coached. Celtics are his best chance at success.

What if the Lakers hire Luke Walton? Simmons can develop into a rich man's Draygod.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I think Ingram is the Lakers' best bet personally. I really hope they get him. I think he will be a stud once he gets to 220-240 pounds at his 6'9'' frame. Dude seems to play a lot like Giannis but with a jumpshot. It's scary. He doesn't get as many assists but he also played for the Duke system. If he played for LSU, I'm sure he would have high stats as well.

[T_L_P]

What if the Lakers hire Luke Walton? Simmons can develop into a rich man's Draygod.

Simmons won't ever be better than Draymond, let alone better than him.

[Milbuck]

I think Ingram is the Lakers' best bet personally. I really hope they get him. I think he will be a stud once he gets to 220-240 pounds at his 6'9'' frame. Dude seems to play a lot like Giannis but with a jumpshot. It's scary. He doesn't get as many assists but he also played for the Duke system. If he played for LSU, I'm sure he would have high stats as well.
Giannis is legitimately playing point guard right now and is a near 7' 7'4" wingspan alien defensively. There's been games where he's played PG on offense and center on defense protecting the rim. I remember a game against Minnesota...he had 27/9/11 as the primary playmaker/ballhandler...and defensively, KAT had 17 points in the first Q..we put Giannis on him, he scores just 4 points the remaining 3 quarters and we blow them out.

Ingram can be a really nice scorer, but he isn't touching Giannis' all around potential.

Also Giannis has always had the frame to put on great muscle. Even his rookie year at like ~6'9" 200 it was almost guaranteed he would grow and he had a big frame to put on 25-30 pounds easily. That's why at 6'11" 230 he still moves like a guard. I doubt Ingram can get to 230+ and maintain his fluidity.

[3ball]

Similar to Lebron, Simmons is a bad shooter who plays point guard from the forward position - he's a poor man's Lebron.. This is a problem because Lebron's style achieves stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.. Simmons' impact is likely the same.

Specifically, Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.





This is fcking pathetic :lol



Quite the contrary - I'm very proud of it..

[ralph_i_el]

Quite the contrary - I'm very proud of it..
http://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llz351yX6q1qis4q9o1_500.gif

[FireDavidKahn]

Quite the contrary - I'm very proud of it..
:facepalm Simmons ain't close to a "poor man's Lebron".

[Cocaine80s]

Giannis is legitimately playing point guard right now and is a near 7' 7'4" wingspan alien defensively. There's been games where he's played PG on offense and center on defense protecting the rim. I remember a game against Minnesota...he had 27/9/11 as the primary playmaker/ballhandler...and defensively, KAT had 17 points in the first Q..we put Giannis on him, he scores just 4 points the remaining 3 quarters and we blow them out.

Ingram can be a really nice scorer, but he isn't touching Giannis' all around potential.

Also Giannis has always had the frame to put on great muscle. Even his rookie year at like ~6'9" 200 it was almost guaranteed he would grow and he had a big frame to put on 25-30 pounds easily. That's why at 6'11" 230 he still moves like a guard. I doubt Ingram can get to 230+ and maintain his fluidity.
Ingram can't touch Gianni's as a passer but Giannis will never be as a good as a shooter like Ingram either

They're very different, they just are long af

[3ball]

:facepalm Simmons ain't close to a "poor man's Lebron".
Simmons is a poor man's Lebron because he employs a point guard style from the forward position just like Lebron does - but this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

This is why Simmons' college teams were so horrible - his point guard style from the forward position reduced everyone's opportunity to assist and time with the ball just like Lebron - if this style causes the far more talented Lebron's teams to underachieve and lose as the favorite from 2009-2011, then it should be no surprise that the teams of poor man's Lebron would be complete AIDS.