Did LeBron change the way we view Wade's career?

[Black and White]

Hear me out, Wade is one of the best ever, a top 3 SG, but did LeBron playing in Miami change the way some people (or the media) view Dwyane Wade?

For example look at Dirk, he has 1 ring, but is considered right up there in the top 16-17 of all time, also a top 3-4 PF of all-time, even though longevity is important, I think that Wade's career is viewed differently because of LeBron.

He's a 3 time champion, and one would think he would be ranked higher because of it.

Do you think we look at Wade differently if the decision never happened?

(the reason I don't bring up Bosh is because he was never the number 1 option)

[SouBeachTalents]

The biggest reason why it changed the way Wade will be viewed imo is he'll forever be mentioned as the 2nd option in those Big 3 comparisons, throwing him in with the likes of Pippen/McHale/Parker, when before teaming up Wade was easily a top 3-5 player in the league, and unlike those previously mentioned won a championship as his team's best player

[Ranked 12th]

Think about this, if LeBron didn't show up, Wade would've continued his streak of losing in the 1st round/ lottery every single season.



Who elses career does that resemble? Tmac, who also kept losing in the 1st round.




So if LeBron didn't show up to save the day, Wade wouldn't be top 25-30 but he would be top 50-60 with T-Mac



It seems LeBron saved Wade's legacy :confusedshrug:

[navy]

Who is we? Wade > Dirk

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron chance Wade career since wade's body started to break down after 2011

[Cocaine80s]

Who is we? Wade > Dirk
This. Op's agenda is obvious

[Black and White]

Think about this, if LeBron didn't show up, Wade would've continued his streak of losing in the 1st round/ lottery every single season.



Who elses career does that resemble? Tmac, who also kept losing in the 1st round.




So if LeBron didn't show up to save the day, Wade wouldn't be top 25-30 but he would be top 50-60 with T-Mac



It seems LeBron saved Wade's legacy :confusedshrug:

Wade had a ring before LeBron, T-Mac doesn't, that's the difference.

[Black and White]

Who is we? Wade > Dirk

The majority have it the other way.

[WadeStan]

A more easily answered question is the reverse.

Bron still hasn't won a finals game without Wade in the building. :(

[Wade's Rings]

Yes OP. I have always said this, Bron gained the most legacy boost from the decision. He added 2 Rings, 2 Finals MVPs, and 2 MVPs while winning back-2-back Titles. Wade only added 2 sidekick rings. He likely has an MVP in '11 if Bron doesn't come and the Heat would be contenders in '11 and '12 and he could potentially win another title as the man.

[feyki]

Dirk averaged 26 Points , 10 Boards , %58.4 TS , 118 Ortg a game in 12 consecutive Playoff Years .

So , it's not about 1 ring .

[WadeStan]

Dirk averaged 26 Points , 10 Boards , %58.4 TS , 118 Ortg a game in 12 consecutive Playoff Years .

So , it's not about 1 ring .

True. But his chokes against Miami and the Warriors (Dallas as a 67 win team) have to count for something too.

[pastis]

Who is we? Wade > Dirk

ish is literally the only place where some people think this way. really. But im pretty sure, that if we make an ISH top 100 ranking, that the majority has dirk above wade



True. But his chokes against Miami and the Warriors (Dallas as a 67 win team) have to count for something too.

same for Duncan 08-09 and especially 10-11 performances despite having way better teamm8s i guess?

[ArbitraryWater]

OP literally only knows ringz, it seems...

Btw, is ISH the only place where some people act like Wade is close to Dirk?

That guy "navy" just said it like it was the most normal thing in the world, too

[pastis]

OP literally only knows ringz, it seems...

Btw, is ISH the only place where some people act like Wade is close to Dirk?

That guy "navy" just said it like it was the most normal thing in the world, too

navy and 2-3 more wade stans are thinking this way. Only on ISH. but they would never try to open a thread on realgm or other websites (nbafraft ect) claiming this shit.

[ArbitraryWater]

navy and 2-3 more wade stans are thinking this way. Only on ISH. but they would never try to open a thread on realgm or other websites (nbafraft ect) claiming this shit.

true.. would probably feel a bit too embarrassed, shame is a good sign in a human.

[JT123]

Yes OP. I have always said this, Bron gained the most legacy boost from the decision. He added 2 Rings, 2 Finals MVPs, and 2 MVPs while winning back-2-back Titles. Wade only added 2 sidekick rings. He likely has an MVP in '11 if Bron doesn't come and the Heat would be contenders in '11 and '12 and he could potentially win another title as the man.
http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

[navy]

OP literally only knows ringz, it seems...

Btw, is ISH the only place where some people act like Wade is close to Dirk?

That guy "navy" just said it like it was the most normal thing in the world, too
Dirk is the most overrated player I've ever seen. Good thing Lebron choked like a bitch in 2011, cause if he hadnt we wouldnt be having this discussion.

What has he accomplished that it's not even "close" between him and Wade? :biggums:

[Cocaine80s]

Dirk is the most overrated player I've ever seen. Good thing Lebron choked like a bitch in 2011, cause if he hadnt we wouldnt be having this discussion.

What has he accomplished that it's not even "close" between him and Wade? :biggums:
Dude gets so overhyped by white fans its not even funny

3 rings and a fmvp yet not even close to Dirk :roll:

[navy]

Dude gets so overhyped by white fans its not even funny

3 rings and a fmvp yet not even close to Dirk :roll:
Im dead serious, was there anytime during the 2006 or 2011 Finals that Dirk looked FAR superior to Wade?
Like not even close?

No. Get out of here with that bullshit.

Say Dirk is better if you want, but not even close? :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

Im dead serious, was there anytime during the 2006 or 2011 Finals that Dirk looked FAR superior to Wade?
Like not even close?

No. Get out of here with that bullshit.

Say Dirk is better if you want, but not even close? :biggums:

of course not? why would it matter that much to you, though?

[JT123]

Dude gets so overhyped by white fans its not even funny

3 rings and a fmvp yet not even close to Dirk :roll:
Reminds me of how posters insist Bird is better than Lebron despite most of them never having seen Bird play. :lol

[Ranked 12th]

Reminds me of how posters insist Bird is better than Lebron despite most of them never having seen Bird play. :lol

:roll: :roll:

[navy]

of course not? why would it matter that much to you, though?
Why would it matter to me?

This is a basketball forum. We discuss basketball. No?

[feyki]

True. But his chokes against Miami and the Warriors (Dallas as a 67 win team) have to count for something too.

If he didn't , he would be in top 10 goat .

Edit ;

3 fmvp and 1 mvp .

[Cocaine80s]

Reminds me of how posters insist Bird is better than Lebron despite most of them never having seen Bird play. :lol
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

Yes...I respect Wade more now.

Wade was the leader and best player in the 2011 finals, but Bran pouted and sabotaged the series. Instead of being a hot head, Wade took a step back to allow the team to win.

Wade won in both ways because of his dedication to winning...as the star and as the support.

[JT123]

Yes...I respect Wade more now.

Wade was the leader and best player in the 2011 finals, but Bran pouted and sabotaged the series. Instead of being a hot head, Wade took a step back to allow the team to win.

Wade won in both ways because of his dedication to winning...as the star and as the support.
Welcome back Justin! :cheers:
Hopefully you learned your lesson and won't be disrespecting RBA anymore.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Wade changed LeBron's career also. Without his help LeBron wouldn't even be a champ.

[Wade's Rings]

Wade changed LeBron's career also. Without his help LeBron wouldn't even be a champ.

Bron benefitted the most from the decision. Wade didn't benefit nearly as much.

[Ranked 12th]

Bron benefitted the most from the decision. Wade didn't benefit nearly as much.

2 sidekick rings >>>>>>>>> lottery/1st round exit every year of his career.

[Wade's Rings]

2 sidekick rings >>>>>>>>> lottery/1st round exit every year of his career.

You're trying too hard.

[JT123]

You're trying too hard.
You're the one trying to claim 2 additional rings hurt Wade's legacy. :oldlol:
If anyone is trying too hard it's you :sleeping

[Ranked 12th]

You're trying too hard.

2007 - first round exit (swept)

2008- lottery

2009- first round exit

2010- first round exit

:confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

2007 - first round exit (swept)

2008- lottery

2009- first round exit

2010- first round exit

:confusedshrug:

2004- 2nd round

2005- Conference Finals

2006- Title

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

:oldlol: @ you acting like Wade/Bosh are lottery bound/1st round exits.

[Ranked 12th]

2004- 2nd round

2005- Conference Finals

2006- Title

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Wade peaked in 2006 and has been downhill since.


What does that have to do with LeBron coming or not 5 years later in 2011? If LeBron doesn't come, Wade would've continued his streak of 1st round losses or staying in the lottery.

[Ranked 12th]

2004- 2nd round

2005- Conference Finals

2006- Title

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

:oldlol: @ you acting like Wade/Bosh are lottery bound/1st round exits.

Didn't Wade/Bosh miss the playoffs last year? Thanks for proving my point for me. :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

Wade peaked in 2006 and has been downhill since.


What does that have to do with LeBron coming or not 5 years later in 2011? If LeBron doesn't come, Wade would've continued his streak of 1st round losses or staying in the lottery.

Exactly my point. You're trying way too hard :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Wade peaked in 2006 and has been downhill since.


http://s22.postimg.org/cowe4ra2p/09wade.jpg

[Ranked 12th]

http://s22.postimg.org/cowe4ra2p/09wade.jpg

So you admit Wade was worse than LeBron?

:roll:

[feyki]

So you admit Wade was worse than LeBron?

:roll:

So being worse than Lebron is laughable .

[warriorfan]

So you admit Wade was worse than LeBron?

:roll:

Wade was better when you factor in composure, leadership, and mental toughness. Put Wade on the 2009 Cavaliers and he isn't getting sent home by a Jameer Nelsonless Magic team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade was better when you factor in composure, leadership, and mental toughness. Put Wade on the 2009 Cavaliers and he isn't getting sent home by a Jameer Nelsonless Magic team.

You put LeBron on the 2009 Heat they probably don't lose to the Hawks

[aj1987]

You put LeBron on the 2009 Heat they probably don't lose to the Hawks
That Heat team was one of the worst rebounding and 3pt shooting teams in the league. They defense was anchored by a 6'4" SG. LeBron's isn't getting past the Hawks with that team. I doubt he even wins as many games as Wade did.

I like Dirk, but dude has been getting massively overrated since he won the ring in '11.

[Labissiere]

The biggest reason why it changed the way Wade will be viewed imo is he'll forever be mentioned as the 2nd option in those Big 3 comparisons, throwing him in with the likes of Pippen/McHale/Parker, when before teaming up Wade was easily a top 3-5 player in the league, and unlike those previously mentioned won a championship as his team's best player
Yep.

[choppermagic]

Going from Alpha franchise player to Beta, role player-type role will hurt your overall perception from casual fans. it's inevitable.

Professional Sports is entertainment. People like to root for heroes. The sidekicks get appreciation but are not given the legacy of heroes.

[aquaadverse]

You're a serious dumbass. The Heat decided they would go all in for the free agent class of 2010 and filled the roster with players that were more valued for their expiring contracts over value on the court. It resulted in 2 Titles.

[PJR]

Not at all, because Wade will always have his 2006 season in his back pocket. That will always hold up in history.

A 28-6-6 59TS% post-season run, and the runaway Finals MVP.

There will NEVER be a narrative attached to Wade that he NEEDED LeBron to win. Never.

And on the fact that after this season, LeBron will have played 9 complete seasons without Wade, with a different orgranization, and has yet to come close to sniffing a title? That will only enhance how Wade is perceived.


And good lord don't let the Heat actually beat Cavs in the playoffs. :lol

That will be too fun.

[Gileraracer]

I'd respect Wade if he didn't need 17 free throws per game or Lebron to win a championship

[aquaadverse]

Anyone remember Wade sitting at the post game podium during that first season to keep Lebron from saying something stupid ? Dude is a Beta . He will never win a tile in that environment. Talent, yup. Leadership, zero.

[aquaadverse]

I'd respect Wade if he didn't need 17 free throws per game or Lebron to win a championship
And your team has won what, exactly?

[Hey Yo]

Not at all, because Wade will always have his 2006 season in his back pocket. That will always hold up in history.

A 28-6-6 59TS% post-season run, and the runaway Finals MVP.

There will NEVER be a narrative attached to Wade that he NEEDED LeBron to win. Never.

And on the fact that after this season, LeBron will have played 9 complete seasons without Wade, with a different orgranization, and has yet to come close to sniffing a title? That will only enhance how Wade is perceived.


And good lord don't let the Heat actually beat Cavs in the playoffs. :lol

That will be too fun.
What scenario/situation do you consider "close to sniffing a title?"

[PJR]

Anyone remember Wade sitting at the post game podium during that first season to keep Lebron from saying something stupid ? Dude is a Beta . He will never win a tile in that environment. Talent, yup. Leadership, zero.

That Cleveland lockeroom is as messy as you can get, and it all starts with LeBron's passive aggressive style of "leadership".

And instead of just trying to focus on basketball and lead by example, he's out there trying to run the Cavs like his own corporation. Not gonna work.

[pauk]

Dirk with the MVP + context of what i call "the man" championship run (being easily the best player on the team, most accountable player) compared to Wades makes his career slightly better....

Wade has one "the man" championship run... and... thats it, as far as significant accolades goes.... those other 2 are not meaningless but not as significant as his 1st championship run, nowhere close.... all in all not significant enough to rank him ahead or exactly next to Dirk... but very close....

[aj1987]

Dirk with the MVP + context of what i call "the man" championship run (being easily the best player on the team, most accountable player) compared to Wades makes his career slightly better....

Wade has one "the man" championship run... and... thats it, as far as significant accolades goes.... those other 2 are not meaningless but not as significant as his 1st championship run, nowhere close.... all in all not significant enough to rank him ahead or exactly next to Dirk... but very close....
Wade was 1 missed 3 and a LeBron choke away form being a 4x NBA champ and 2x FMVP.

2012:

1st Round - 21/4/4/3/1 on 51%
ECSF - 26/6/3/1/1 on 47%
ECF - 21/6/5/2/2 on 44%
Finals - 23/6/5/1/1 on 44%

Overall - 23/5/4/2/1 on 46%

Elite numbers anyway you look at it. Miami doesn't even get to the ECF, if Wade doesn't go ham against the Pacers, averaging 33/7/4/2/1 on 62% over the final 3 games, 2 of which were at Indiana.

[aquaadverse]

Dirk with the MVP + context of what i call "the man" championship run (being easily the best player on the team, most accountable player) compared to Wades makes his career slightly better....

Wade has one "the man" championship run... and... thats it, as far as significant accolades goes.... those other 2 are not meaningless but not as significant as his 1st championship run, nowhere close.... all in all not significant enough to rank him ahead or exactly next to Dirk... but very close....
Dirk had one. Deal. He lost to the the 8th team when he won MVP. Seriously, get over it.

[aquaadverse]

Dirk had one. Deal. He lost to the the 8th team when he won MVP. Seriously, get over it.

You guys kill me. Absolutely nothing.

[Bankaii]

Only idiots think Lebron hurt Wade's legacy.

Let's say Bron and Bosh never leave in 2010.
Wade continues to be a 1st round bounce and as he gets older he can't sit games out like he did.

His career and views as a player would be much worse.

And Wade>Dirk, gtfoh.

[aj1987]

Only idiots think Lebron hurt Wade's legacy.

Let's say Bron and Bosh never leave in 2010.
Wade continues to be a 1st round bounce and as he gets older he can't sit games out like he did.

His career and views as a player would be much worse.

And Wade>Dirk, gtfoh.
Miami had a shit ton of capspace and they freed that up specifically for the '10 FA. Even if LeBron and Bosh BOTH do not come to Miami, you think Pat is going to let Wade play on teams like the '09 and '10 ones?

[Lebronxrings]

Lebron is criminally underrated on this forum. :facepalm

[Ranked 12th]

Miami had a shit ton of capspace and they freed that up specifically for the '10 FA. Even if LeBron and Bosh BOTH do not come to Miami, you think Pat is going to let Wade play on teams like the '09 and '10 ones?

Yea, they used LeBrons cap space to stack the deck last year with Deng, Dragic, Whiteside and still missed the playoffs.


That's exactly what wouldve happened if LeBron never showed up

[Wade's Rings]

Only idiots think Lebron hurt Wade's legacy.

Let's say Bron and Bosh never leave in 2010.
Wade continues to be a 1st round bounce and as he gets older he can't sit games out like he did.

His career and views as a player would be much worse.

And Wade>Dirk, gtfoh.

How much did it benefit Wade? He only got 2 sidekick Titles. If Bron doesn't come and Wade and Bosh have their own team, he likely has an MVP in '11. He is on a contender in '11 & '12. Potentially getting another Title as the man.

According to pastis and arbitrarywater Wade isn't even close to Dirk All-Time.

[Wade's Rings]

Yea, they used LeBrons cap space to stack the deck last year with Deng, Dragic, Whiteside and still missed the playoffs.


That's exactly what wouldve happened if LeBron never showed up

Whiteside was on the Kings in '10 literally just drafted. Dragic likely isn't traded and IIRC Deng was a free agent. Again you're trying too hard.

[Wade's Rings]

Miami had a shit ton of capspace and they freed that up specifically for the '10 FA. Even if LeBron and Bosh BOTH do not come to Miami, you think Pat is going to let Wade play on teams like the '09 and '10 ones?

I've said the Heat could've won Titles sans Bron in '11 & '12 and I get a lot of heat for it. It's like people forget that Bosh signed before Bron and the Heat could've used Lebron's money to sign some decent role players to fill up the rest of the roster.

[pastis]

How much did it benefit Wade? He only got 2 sidekick Titles. If Bron doesn't come and Wade and Bosh have their own team, he likely has an MVP in '11. He is on a contender in '11 & '12. Potentially getting another Title as the man.

According to pastis and arbitrarywater Wade isn't even close to Dirk All-Time.

what do you mean with close? Dirk is far better than wade in any advanced stat outside RS PER (playoff PER is Dirk better).
I just stated that most experts/analysts and even most basketball forums have Dirk more in the KG/Barkley/Malone/Dr.J tier and wade is not part of that.
Im pretty sure, if we would make an ISH top100 list, Dirk would be ahead of Wade, tough ISH is probably the only forum where Wade-stans really consider Wade > Dirk

I have Dirk in the 14-17 Range and Wade more in the 22-25 range. You have it probably the other way round.

[pastis]

I've said the Heat could've won Titles sans Bron in '11 & '12 and I get a lot of heat for it. It's like people forget that Bosh signed before Bron and the Heat could've used Lebron's money to sign some decent role players to fill up the rest of the roster.

deng, dragic, whiteside, bosh, wade and some decent role players and not making the playoffs? whats your excuse?

if Lebron would have missed the playoffs with bosh,whitesite, deng, dragic, what would you and many other lebron critics say?

[aj1987]

what do you mean with close? Dirk is far better than wade in any advanced stat outside RS PER (playoff PER is Dirk better).
I just stated that most experts/analysts and even most basketball forums have Dirk more in the KG/Barkley/Malone/Dr.J tier and wade is not part of that.
Im pretty sure, if we would make an ISH top100 list, Dirk would be ahead of Wade, tough ISH is probably the only forum where Wade-stans really consider Wade > Dirk

I have Dirk in the 14-17 Range and Wade more in the 22-25 range. You have it probably the other way round.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

That was in '12. Wade won another ring after than and Dirk has done jack. Wade is ~18-22 all-time along with Dirk. Dirk in the top 15? :roll: :roll: :roll:

As I said, 1 title and he went from being borderline top 50 to a top 15 player. Never has a SINGLE title changed a players rank so much.


deng, dragic, whiteside, bosh, wade and some decent role players and not making the playoffs? whats your excuse?

if Lebron would have missed the playoffs with bosh,whitesite, deng, dragic, what would you and many other lebron critics say?
You do know that Dragic and Whiteside played a COMBINED 74 games, right? Bosh was done after 44 and Wade played like 60.

Dirk missed the PO's at the same age, FYI.

[kamil]

Think about this, if LeBron didn't show up, Wade would've continued his streak of losing in the 1st round/ lottery every single season.



Who elses career does that resemble? Tmac, who also kept losing in the 1st round.




So if LeBron didn't show up to save the day, Wade wouldn't be top 25-30 but he would be top 50-60 with T-Mac



It seems LeBron saved Wade's legacy :confusedshrug:

You are aware that Wade already had a ring before LeBron* came along... but then agin, LeBron* also needed to bring along Bosh to give himself a guarantee... well, almost.... 2011 and 2014.

[pastis]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

That was in '12. Wade won another ring after than and Dirk has done jack. Wade is ~18-22 all-time along with Dirk. Dirk in the top 15? :roll: :roll: :roll:

As I said, 1 title and he went from being borderline top 50 to a top 15 player. Never has a SINGLE title changed a players rank so much.

thats your opinion. ive seen enough all-time rankings before 2011 who ranked dirk top 25 easily.

and you proved me right: even on wade-stan-infested ish Dirk is ahead of Wade. . let that sink






Dirk missed the PO's at the same age, FYI.

1) with a far worse team
2) he just played 52 games due to injury
3) in the west

edit: 2012-2013 dallas mavericks team

Josh Akognon
3 Rodrigue Beaubois
42 Elton Brand C
25 Vince Carter
4 Darren Collison
9 Jae Crowder
1 Jared Cunningham
52 Eddy Curry C
7 Justin Dentmon
17 Chris Douglas-Roberts
5 Bernard James
13 Mike James PG
30 Dahntay Jones
20 Dominique Jones
0 Shawn Marion
32 O.J. Mayo SG
23 Anthony Morrow
6 Troy Murphy
41 Dirk Nowitzki
34 Brandan Wright
8 Chris Wright

[Bankaii]

How much did it benefit Wade? He only got 2 sidekick Titles. If Bron doesn't come and Wade and Bosh have their own team, he likely has an MVP in '11. He is on a contender in '11 & '12. Potentially getting another Title as the man.

According to pastis and arbitrarywater Wade isn't even close to Dirk All-Time.
People are far too conceded in the "sidekick rings" talk.
I troll Kobetards with it, but those 3 sidekick rings are what puts Kobe ahead of Lebron on my list.

Wade proved he could lead/co-lead a team in 2011, and if Bron had not choked Wade would've probably won FMVP.
2012 was a great run, his numbers speak for themselves.
2013 wasn't as impressive, that was a legit sidekick ring.

I have to disagree with the last part of your post though.
IMO if Lebron is still with Cleveland in 2011 he gets MVP due to superior stats, or D rose still gets it due to team record.
2011 I don't think just Wade and Bosh are contenders. Wade struggled against the Bulls(I think it was this series) and although he was a beast against Boston Lebron was needed to overcome them.
2012 the Thunder would kill them if the Heat even get past Boston.
2013+ would generally look like 2015.

I hate hypotheticals because of the multiple variables but Wade's career would look much worse without Lebron.
And AW and pastis are both huge Dirk fans, I'd take their opinion with a grain of salt.
09 Wade is a top 10 peak. Dirk is no where near that.

[Wade's Rings]

what do you mean with close? Dirk is far better than wade in any advanced stat outside RS PER (playoff PER is Dirk better).

I don't give a shit about advanced stats.


I just stated that most experts/analysts and even most basketball forums have Dirk more in the KG/Barkley/Malone/Dr.J tier and wade is not part of that.
Im pretty sure, if we would make an ISH top100 list, Dirk would be ahead of Wade, tough ISH is probably the only forum where Wade-stans really consider Wade > Dirk

You only think Wade "stans" have Wade higher? There are 3 guys In this thread who aren't Wade guys that have him higher. Again, I have no problem with you saying Dirk is better but not close is just a stupid statement.


I have Dirk in the 14-17 Range and Wade more in the 22-25 range. You have it probably the other way round.

I don't have Wade nor Dirk Top 15. They would both fall Top 20 or top 25 for me, I would have to really think the list through though.


deng, dragic, whiteside, bosh, wade and some decent role players and not making the playoffs? whats your excuse?

if Lebron would have missed the playoffs with bosh,whitesite, deng, dragic, what would you and many other lebron critics say?

You people just list names. Deng didn't play great last year. Dragic came after the all-star break and he went from playing on the fast paced Suns to the slow, grind it out ball the Heat play. Whiteside didn't play starters minutes until post All-star break and he still missed several Games due to injury and suspension. As a matter of fact he wasn't a part of the rotation till mid/late January. I think the Heat should've made the Playoffs but listing these guys isn't the reason why.

[pastis]

so we should make a new top100 ish list. i mean Dirk has literally no fans here outisde of aw, dmavs41 and me. maybe 5 people with locked_up_tonight and feyik.

and i hope all these wannabe-oldschool-experts

[Wade's Rings]

People are far too conceded in the "sidekick rings" talk.
I troll Kobetards with it, but those 3 sidekick rings are what puts Kobe ahead of Lebron on my list.

Wade proved he could lead/co-lead a team in 2011, and if Bron had not choked Wade would've probably won FMVP.
2012 was a great run, his numbers speak for themselves.
2013 wasn't as impressive, that was a legit sidekick ring.

Well it helps his legacy but IMO having 1 or 2 as the man would've trumped those and been a much bigger boost for his legacy.


I have to disagree with the last part of your post though.
IMO if Lebron is still with Cleveland in 2011 he gets MVP due to superior stats, or D rose still gets it due to team record.
2011 I don't think just Wade and Bosh are contenders. Wade struggled against the Bulls(I think it was this series) and although he was a beast against Boston Lebron was needed to overcome them.
2012 the Thunder would kill them if the Heat even get past Boston.
2013+ would generally look like 2015.

I think Wade gets it because the only thing holding him back the previous years was his team. He probably posts stats similar to '09 Wade but a little worse and the Heat win 55+ Games IMO.

'12 Wade gave the team to Bron and said he would be the 2nd option. I still think he was still around a 26/5/5 level player if he was the 1st option.

I think they make the Playoffs in '13 but miss it in '14. No chance at a Title in '13.


I hate hypotheticals because of the multiple variables but Wade's career would look much worse without Lebron.
And AW and pastis are both huge Dirk fans, I'd take their opinion with a grain of salt.
09 Wade is a top 10 peak. Dirk is no where near that.

We can agree to disagree. :cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

[QUOTE=pastis]so we should make a new top100 ish list. i mean Dirk has literally no fans here outisde of aw, dmavs41 and me. maybe 5 people with locked_up_tonight and feyik.

and i hope all these wannabe-oldschool-experts

[Bankaii]

Well it helps his legacy but IMO having 1 or 2 as the man would've trumped those and been a much bigger boost for his legacy.



I think Wade gets it because the only thing holding him back the previous years was his team. He probably posts stats similar to '09 Wade but a little worse and the Heat win 55+ Games IMO.

'12 Wade gave the team to Bron and said he would be the 2nd option. I still think he was still around a 26/5/5 level player if he was the 1st option.

I think they make the Playoffs in '13 but miss it in '14. No chance at a Title in '13.



We can agree to disagree. :cheers:
I see nothing wrong with any of what you said.
Nice to see you and I on similar terms for once:cheers:


[QUOTE=pastis]so we should make a new top100 ish list. i mean Dirk has literally no fans here outisde of aw, dmavs41 and me. maybe 5 people with locked_up_tonight and feyik.

and i hope all these wannabe-oldschool-experts

[pastis]

I see nothing wrong with any of what you said.
Nice to see you and I on similar terms for once:cheers:



You seem like a huge asshole. It's not that serious.

But Dirk isn't top 15 all time. I'm sorry that's just dumb.
I don't even think that DMVAS guy would go that far.

advanced stats wise (RS PER, Playoff PER, WS, defensive WS, WS/48 etc. pp) he is way better than Kobe and Wade. its not even close.
I dont think its dumb to have him top 15. Not at all. If you consider success and all-nba honors, AS honors, advanced stats etc he is a top 15 all time.

I dont think there is a huge gap between Malone/Dirk/Barkley/Dr. J/Moses/West. If you are completly objective at least

[Real14]

It made it worse for Wade especially since he already had an asterisk ring before bronna arrived. Wade decided to agree to play with lebronna, then 2011 finals happened. 2012 he then became a bitch by letting bronna take over as tha man. Only way he can make his career a little better is if he defeat bronna in tha playoffs which have a very low chance of happening. I used to be a Wade fan by tha way, had his black Jersey too.

[aj1987]

thats your opinion. ive seen enough all-time rankings before 2011 who ranked dirk top 25 easily.

and you proved me right: even on wade-stan-infested ish Dirk is ahead of Wade. . let that sink
1. There are FAR more Wade haters here than actual Wade fans.
2. Any REASONABLE fan actually has Wade and Dirk pretty close. In fact, even DMAVS, the resident Dirk super stan, considers them to be extremely close and only gives the edge to Dirk because of longevity.
3. Dirk is not even close to being a top 15 player. Don't kid yourself.


1) with a far worse team
2) he just played 52 games due to injury
3) in the west
Wade played 60 games. Bosh played 44. Dragic and Whiteside COMBINED to play 74 games and even then, Dragic was actually bad. IIRC, Miami had the highest number of lineup changes in history. Dallas was/is coached by a GREAT coach. Miami's coach is Spobot.



I dont think there is a huge gap between Malone/Dirk/Barkley/Dr. J/Moses/West. If you are completly objective at least
Moses - 3x MVP, 1x NBA champ, 1x FMVP, great defender, ATG rebounder
Dr. J - 3x NBA/ABA champ, 4x NBA/ABA MVP
West - 1x NBA champ, 1x NBA FMVP, 1x scoring champ, good defender, 9x Finals
Malone - 2x MVP, 2nd all time in points scored, great defender

According to WS, Dirk is better than Moses, Shaq, Kobe, and Hakeem.

According to WS/48, Ed Macauley and Harry Gallatin are top 50 players. Neil Johnston is top 5. Harden, KD, Oscar, Malone, Pettit, Dirk, etc. are all better than Bird.

According to RAPM, Amir Johnson has more impact than Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Pierce, etc..

[Jacks3]

09 Wade is a top 10 peak. Dirk is no where near that.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hey Yo]

I've said the Heat could've won Titles sans Bron in '11 & '12 and I get a lot of heat for it. It's like people forget that Bosh signed before Bron and the Heat could've used Lebron's money to sign some decent role players to fill up the rest of the roster.
Not with Joel Anthony at the 5 and Bibby's corpse at the 1.

With James, Heat went 0-4 against Chicago in the reg. season and don't think they get past them w/o him in the postseason.

[Ranked 12th]

Listen, I'm a Wade Stan, but even I know Dirk >>>>> Wade

[aj1987]

Listen, I'm a Wade Stan, but even I know Dirk >>>>> Wade
Jason Terry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron though. That's much worse. :confusedshrug:

[pastis]

Listen, I'm a Wade Stan, but even I know Dirk >>>>> Wade

:applause: :applause:

[greatest-ever]

No i'd argue it may have actually made people view him in a worse manner, because of how he played in the playoffs those last couple seasons. Also there's the whole thing of "he needed Shaq and Lebron to win rings!", people don't put a lot of weight into Wade's rings actually.

[feyki]

Jerry West and Doctor have definitely better career than Dirk . Moses's status debatable but i think he's better too .

But I don't think Garnett or Karl or Barkley has better career than Dirk .

[greatest-ever]

advanced stats wise (RS PER, Playoff PER, WS, defensive WS, WS/48 etc. pp) he is way better than Kobe and Wade. its not even close.
I dont think its dumb to have him top 15. Not at all. If you consider success and all-nba honors, AS honors, advanced stats etc he is a top 15 all time.

I dont think there is a huge gap between Malone/Dirk/Barkley/Dr. J/Moses/West. If you are completly objective at least
Saying Dirk is way better than Kobe career wise is clearly nonsense fueled by your Dirk bias. He's comfortably better than Wade career wise yes, but that's all longevity. Dirk never reached the level Wade did in 06 or 09. Anyone with a brain can see that the 2 were at least close in their primes.

[pastis]

Saying Dirk is way better than Kobe career wise is clearly nonsense fueled by your Dirk bias. He's comfortably better than Wade career wise yes, but that's all longevity. Dirk never reached the level Wade did in 06 or 09. Anyone with a brain can see that the 2 were at least close in their primes.

i wrote that advanced stat wise, dirk is better than kobe (and obviously than wade). Statswise Kobe is barely top 20.
I wrote that Kobe never lead his team in WS (ariza and gasol 2x from 08-10) and he never lead the league in WS or WS/48 (Dirk lead his team and 3x times the league)
Dirk has a 24 playoff PER compared to Kobes 22. etc. pp. etc.pp
Kobe has oviously 5 rings, but i guess that Jackson, Shaq, Gasol and co have a say in that matter.
And 2009 wade was awesome, but why should you just look at high volume scoring and not other advanced stats?

[Bankaii]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Let me guess, Kobetard.

09' Wade isn't top 10 but 06' Kobe is?
List 10 better peaks than Wade's.

[Black and White]

i wrote that advanced stat wise, dirk is better than kobe (and obviously than wade). Statswise Kobe is barely top 20.
I wrote that Kobe never lead his team in WS (ariza and gasol 2x from 08-10) and he never lead the league in WS or WS/48 (Dirk lead his team and 3x times the league)
Dirk has a 24 playoff PER compared to Kobes 22. etc. pp. etc.pp
Kobe has oviously 5 rings, but i guess that Jackson, Shaq, Gasol and co have a say in that matter.
And 2009 wade was awesome, but why should you just look at high volume scoring and not other advanced stats?

When you look at advanced stats in a vacuum, it doesn't give substance to an argument, you have to use them in context.

Kobe doesn't fare as well in these categories, but players like CP3 who hasn't won anything do well. Context my man.

[greatest-ever]

And 2009 wade was awesome, but why should you just look at high volume scoring and not other advanced stats?
Mmk, lets. 2009 Wade: PER 30.4, OBPM 8.7, BPM 10.7, VORP 9.7. Those are 4 advanced stats that Dirk quite frankly never came close to over a full season. I'm not even real big on these numbers, but you asked.

[GrapeApe]

No i'd argue it may have actually made people view him in a worse manner, because of how he played in the playoffs those last couple seasons. Also there's the whole thing of "he needed Shaq and Lebron to win rings!", people don't put a lot of weight into Wade's rings actually.

C'mon, you could say "he didn't win without.........." for nearly every superstar in history. Wade's rings carry plenty of weight. Everyone knows that Shaq was past his prime in 2006 and nowhere near the player he once was. Wade was clearly the man on that championship team. Wade was arguably still a top 5 player in 2012, and in 2013 he struggled in the conference playoffs but was a top 10 player in the regular season and very good in the finals.

The funny thing about a thread like this is players don't think like fans. They don't categorize their championships by role. A 3rd option or role player feels every bit the champion as a 1st option or FMVP winner. That's not to say they don't recognize the difference, but it's not nearly to the degree that fans do. For example, most fans would rank a player with 2 titles and 2 FMVP's above a player with 3 titles and 1 FMVP. I'd wager that nearly every player would rather have 3 titles.

[pastis]

When you look at advanced stats in a vacuum, it doesn't give substance to an argument, you have to use them in context.

Kobe doesn't fare as well in these categories, but players like CP3 who hasn't won anything do well. Context my man.

1.) i think advanced stats can give you great player evaluation if you use a larger timespan (like careers)

2) i never said that Dirk is higher on All-time than Kobe, i just said that Kobe ist not that better of a player. i think both have advantages and disadvantages and yea, i think that dirk would have won a few rings if he played his career with jackson, gasol, shaq etc.

[greatest-ever]

C'mon, you could say "he didn't win without.........." for nearly every superstar in history. Wade's rings carry plenty of weight. Everyone knows that Shaq was past his prime in 2006 and nowhere near the player he once was. Wade was clearly the man on that championship team. Wade was arguably still a top 5 player in 2012, and in 2013 he struggled in the conference playoffs but was a top 10 player in the regular season and very good in the finals.

The funny thing about a thread like this is players don't think like fans. They don't categorize their championships by role. A 3rd option or role player feels every bit the champion as a 1st option or FMVP winner. That's not to say they don't recognize the difference, but it's not nearly to the degree that fans do. For example, most fans would rank a player with 2 titles and 2 FMVP's above a player with 3 titles and 1 FMVP. I'd wager that nearly every player would rather have 3 titles.
I don't know how you thought my post was an attack on Wade. I do put weight into Wade's rings, what i'm saying is there are a lot of people that discredit him because of Lebron and Shaq being there.

[Wade's Rings]

I see nothing wrong with any of what you said.
Nice to see you and I on similar terms for once:cheers:

:cheers: