List of players that need spacing the most [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

03-22-2016, 03:49 PM

LeBron is the far better 3 point and midrange shooter compared to MJ :confusedshrug:

Neither player has good efficiency on 3-point jumpshots, but Jordan had GOAT efficiency on 2-point and midrange jumpshots, which were taken far more often for both players.

Consequently, Jordan's Efg on jumpshots was far better in 1997 than any season of Lebron's career:

.................eFG% All Jumpshots................ Midrange

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.2%, 727/1528........... 48.9%, 588/1202

Lebron 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 35.6%, 324/998............ 33.2%, 183/551
Lebron 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.9%, 400/1136.......... 36.0%, 217/602
Lebron 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 41.7%, 423/1166.......... 38.4%, 242/630
Lebron 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.5%, 372/1066.......... 35.1%, 204/581
Lebron 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.4%, 338/1001.......... 36.4%, 185/508
Lebron 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 42.2%, 366/1024.......... 36.8%, 193/525
Lebron 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.4%, 356/970............ 38.8%, 188/444
Lebron 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 45.4%, 393/968............ 44.6%, 217/487
Lebron 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.7%, 290/726............ 42.3%, 188/444
Lebron 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 49.0%, 333/784............ 43.2%, 174/403
Lebron 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 47.0%, 288/736............ 38.5%, 126/327
Lebron 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.1%, 280/788............ 37.0%, 127/343
Lebron 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.0%, 181/543............ 37.1%, 96/259

.

Labissiere

03-22-2016, 03:51 PM

Side note: OP is the worst.

Ranked 12th

03-22-2016, 03:54 PM

This is the 6th time 3ball deleted his reply to me and reposted it

FYI.

3ball

03-22-2016, 03:54 PM

Side note: OP is the worst.

I'm just stating the facts.

MJ was one of the best 2-point jumpshooters of all-time - better than Curry.

He shot far better than Curry on jumpshots inside the 3-point line, on FIVE times the volume:

......................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- links to nba.com data

8-16 ft......... 51.8%, 682 fga........... 46.8%, 126 fga........ 50.0%, 90 fga

16-24 ft....... 48.2%, 495 fga........... 39.4%, 218 fga........ 45.1%, 113 fga

Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga

CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 45.0%, 160 fga

LEBRON 2015:. 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016:. 37.1%, 251 fga

Labissiere

03-22-2016, 03:58 PM

[I][B][COLOR="DarkRed"]I'm just stating the facts.

Is copy and pasting things really "stating" them?

jstern

03-22-2016, 03:58 PM

Career 3 point percentage

LeBron 34%

Jordan (on regular 3 point distance) 30.5%

LeBron is the far better 3 point and midrange shooter compared to MJ :confusedshrug:

How can you say that Lebron is a better midrange shooter than Jordan? Jordan is one of the greatest midrange shooters of all time. That was like his specialty. You should edit your post else everyone is going to think you just started watching basketball.

As far as 3 point shooting. Jordan mostly took bail out 3 pointers early in his career. Averaging around 30 3 pointers per season. A better way to judge his ability is to look at his 89-90 season, when he decided to make it a part of his game and shot around 230.

Labissiere

03-22-2016, 04:05 PM

How can you say that Lebron is a better midrange shooter than Jordan? Jordan is one of the greatest midrange shooters of all time. That was like his specialty. You should edit your post else everyone is going to think you just started watching basketball.

As far as 3 point shooting. Jordan mostly took bail out 3 pointers early in his career. Averaging around 30 3 pointers per season. A better way to judge his ability is to look at his 89-90 season, when he decided to make it a part of his game and shot around 230.
And ultimately decided it wasn't efficient enough so cut it back again.

3ball

03-22-2016, 04:56 PM

Is copy and pasting things really "stating" them?

You realize these are all statistics, right?

Jordan shot TWICE as many jumpshots at greater efficiency than Lebron's best seasons:

.................eFG% All Jumpshots................ Midrange

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.2%, 727/1528........... 48.9%, 588/1202

Lebron 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 35.6%, 324/998............ 33.2%, 183/551
Lebron 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.9%, 400/1136.......... 36.0%, 217/602
Lebron 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 41.7%, 423/1166.......... 38.4%, 242/630
Lebron 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.5%, 372/1066.......... 35.1%, 204/581
Lebron 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.4%, 338/1001.......... 36.4%, 185/508
Lebron 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 42.2%, 366/1024.......... 36.8%, 193/525
Lebron 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.4%, 356/970............ 38.8%, 188/444
Lebron 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 45.4%, 393/968............ 44.6%, 217/487
Lebron 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.7%, 290/726............ 42.3%, 188/444
Lebron 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 49.0%, 333/784............ 43.2%, 174/403
Lebron 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 47.0%, 288/736............ 38.5%, 126/327
Lebron 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 43.1%, 280/788............ 37.0%, 127/343
Lebron 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.0%, 181/543............ 37.1%, 96/259

Jordan had a GOAT 2-point jumpshot - better than Curry's - he shot far better than Curry on jumpshots inside the 3-point line, on FIVE times the volume:

......................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- links to nba.com data

8-16 ft......... 51.8%, 682 fga........... 46.8%, 126 fga........ 50.0%, 90 fga

16-24 ft....... 48.2%, 495 fga........... 39.4%, 218 fga........ 45.1%, 113 fga

Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga

CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 45.0%, 160 fga

LEBRON 2015:. 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016:. 37.1%, 251 fga

3ball

03-22-2016, 05:25 PM

He tried 3-pointers and decided it wasn't efficient enough

MJ shot 38% on 3-pointers in 1990, but he wouldn't need that in today's game.. Guys like Lebron, Wade, Butler, Westbrook, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

MJ's athleticism would benefit from the spaced-out defenders as well, but unlike their horrible jumpshooting, MJ's GOAT midrange efficiency and volume would be a major advantage.

so MJ cut back on his 3-pointers again.

Actually, MJ shot 38% on 3.1 attempts in 1990, but then thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s

In previous eras, no one thought that being a good 3-point shooting team or shooting 3-pointers was a method of winning games - everyone that being good at scoring TWO-pointers was how you won games.. Jordan was the best two-point scorer by far, so why would he think he needed to change?

And he wouldn't need to change in today's game either - guys like Lebron, Wade, Butler, Westbrook, and Derozan all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

MJ would be no different, except unlike their horrible jumpshooting, his GOAT midrange efficiency and volume would be a major advantage.
.

Nuff Said

03-22-2016, 05:32 PM

Are there any players you do respect in today's game?

GrapeApe

03-22-2016, 05:33 PM

CuterThanRubio

03-22-2016, 05:49 PM

Ball handling in the past was so poor that players were incapable of creating open threes (Not like they really needed to, they were usually left alone when standing beyond the arc, not to mention the illegal defense rules, which were horrible for the game).

3 is more than 2

Using more energy for a less valuable option is a poor strategy.

3ball

03-22-2016, 05:50 PM

Wade's midrange game has been very good throughout his career. There's more to the midrange than jumpers, there's also runners, floaters, tear drops, baby hooks, etc.....and Wade has a masterful array of those types of shots. His midrange jumper has always been solid as well. There's a misconception about Wade being a poor shooter just because he doesn't shoot well from 3. I'm not saying he's on Jordan or Kobe's level, but his midrange game is far from a weakness.
Wade's midrange game is basic compared to Jordan's (and also Kobe's)... When you say "runners, floaters, and tear-drops" - those are all the same shot and they're the most basic midrange shots.

Like Mayweather would say - Wade's midrange game is "straight up and down with no special effects"

Jordan and Kobe's midrange game looks totally different from Wade's rigid movements.. I could post many moves that Wade isn't capable of doing and doesn't have anything looking remotely similar in his repertoire.

But again - even though MJ was a goat midrange shooter, he wouldn't need it in today's game.. Guys like Lebron, Wade, Butler, Westbrook, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he would also have goat midrange efficiency to push his capability far past his non-shooting peers.

3ball

03-22-2016, 05:54 PM

3 is more than 2

Did you read the OP?

Lebron, Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - but he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

GrapeApe

03-22-2016, 06:39 PM

Wade's midrange game is basic compared to Jordan's (and also Kobe's)... When you say "runners, floaters, and tear-drops" - those are all the same shot and they're the most basic midrange shots.

Like Mayweather would say - Wade's midrange game is "straight up and down with no special effects"

Jordan and Kobe's midrange game looks totally different from Wade's rigid movements.. I could post many moves that Wade isn't capable of doing and doesn't have anything looking remotely similar in his repertoire.

But again - even though MJ was a goat midrange shooter, he wouldn't need it in today's game.. Guys like Lebron, Wade, Butler, Westbrook, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he would also have goat midrange efficiency to push his capability far past his non-shooting peers.

Did you seriously just call Wade rigid? He is one of the craftiest, most agile, most fluid and smooth players in history. He is anything but rigid and his body control is absolutely elite. I'm starting to think you've never actually seen him play. Nobody who's watched Wade's career would ever call him rigid.

Wade is a 49% career shooter, largely because he's so effective with those "basic" midrange shots. You make it sound like they're easy, when in reality floaters/runners are some of the most difficult shots to master. It takes great timing, touch, and instincts. Why is it so hard to admit that Wade, a top 3 all-time SG, was a great midrange scorer? We know he doesn't shoot 3's and it's not like ALL of his scores are at the rim. Even if you didn't watch him, deductive logic should tell you he was extremely effective from the midrange.

CuterThanRubio

03-22-2016, 06:54 PM

Did you read the OP?

Lebron, Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - but he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

I don't read your posts very thoroughly anymore, its a waste of time.

If getting to the rim was so simple now then why aren't there more 20 point scorers than there were in the 90s?

Flawed logic, as usual.

Those players you named are a step faster, stronger, and greater finishers than the competition, could you imagine Westbrook in the 90s, he would be flying past flat footed iso defense all day long.

CuterThanRubio

03-22-2016, 06:55 PM

Did you seriously just call Wade rigid? He is one of the craftiest, most agile, most fluid and smooth players in history. He is anything but rigid and his body control is absolutely elite. I'm starting to think you've never actually seen him play. Nobody who's watched Wade's career would ever call him rigid.

Wade is a 49% career shooter, largely because he's so effective with those "basic" midrange shots. You make it sound like they're easy, when in reality floaters/runners are some of the most difficult shots to master. It takes great timing, touch, and instincts. Why is it so hard to admit that Wade, a top 3 all-time SG, was a great midrange scorer? We know he doesn't shoot 3's and it's not like ALL of his scores are at the rim. Even if you didn't watch him, deductive logic should tell you he was extremely effective from the midrange.

LMAO

Wade rigid.

The lengths this guy will go to in order to troll the board.

3Ball has never watched a basketball game before, don't mind him!

Nilocon165

03-22-2016, 06:57 PM

Kingdom Hearts II (Japanese: キングダムハーツII Hepburn: Kingudamu Hātsu Tsū?) is an action role-playing game developed and published by Square Enix in 2005 for the PlayStation 2 video game console. The game is a sequel to Kingdom Hearts, which combined Disney and Square elements into an action role-playing game, though it is somewhat darker in tone than its predecessor. The game's popularity has resulted in a novel and manga series based upon it and an international version called Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix, released in March 2007.

3ball

03-22-2016, 07:56 PM

Why is it so hard to admit that Wade, a top 3 all-time SG, was a great midrange scorer?

.................eFG% All Jumpshots................ Midrange

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.2%, 727/1528............. 48.9%, 588/1202

Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.6%, 331/852.............. 38.4%, 174/403
Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.4%, 182/481.............. 39.5%, 115/291
Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.8%, 247/642.............. 38.9%, 144/370
Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):. 36.3%, 228/637.............. 36.4%, 143/393

Wade's midrange ability doesn't compare to that of Jordan or Kobe.

MJ and Kobe were 6'6" and longer - they could've started at SF for their entire careers no problem.. Their midrange game is on another level of Wade's.. Heck, Jordan led the league in scoring during his 2nd three-peat shooting mostly midrange jumpers - look at the stats - his volume and efficiency is unparalleled.

Wade has been a ball-dominator for most of his career.. He doesn't have a fraction of the catch-and-go, triple-threat or turnaround repertoire of Jordan or Kobe.. Wade has no clue about being a big man like those guys do.
.

GrapeApe

03-22-2016, 08:34 PM

.................eFG% All Jumpshots................ Midrange

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.2%, 727/1528............. 48.9%, 588/1202

Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.6%, 331/852.............. 38.4%, 174/403
Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.4%, 182/481.............. 39.5%, 115/291
Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.8%, 247/642.............. 38.9%, 144/370
Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):. 36.3%, 228/637.............. 36.4%, 143/393

Wade's midrange ability doesn't compare to that of Jordan or Kobe.

MJ and Kobe were 6'6" and longer - they could've started at SF for their entire careers no problem.. Their midrange game is on another level of Wade's.. Heck, Jordan led the league in scoring during his 2nd three-peat shooting mostly midrange jumpers - look at the stats - his volume and efficiency is unparalleled.

Wade has been a ball-dominator for most of his career.. He doesn't have a fraction of the catch-and-go, triple-threat or turnaround repertoire of Jordan or Kobe.. Wade has no clue about being a big man like those guys do.
.

I never said Wade was as good a midrange scorer as those guys, and in fact I acknowledged they were better. My point was that Wade has a solid midrange game to accompany his elite slashing ability. You also conveniently ignored how dead wrong you were about calling Wade rigid. Have you ever admitted to being wrong about anything before? You're level of insecurity is embarassing.

3ball

03-22-2016, 08:57 PM

If getting to the rim was so simple now then why aren't there more 20 point scorers than there were in the 90s?

Because players in the 90's didn't average 20 ppg by getting to the rim.

They averaged 20 ppg by shooting from midrange (due to crowded paints).

Otoh, today's players (mentioned in the OP) can average 20 ppg WITHOUT being able to shoot is because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's wide open spacing would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - but he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

jstern

03-22-2016, 09:12 PM

If Jordan came into the current league, as opposed to being transplanted, then his game wouldn't be as good as the 90s Jordan. He once talked about how he had to develop this or that, because of the way relentless way he was being double and trippled team.

CuterThanRubio

03-22-2016, 09:28 PM

Because players in the 90's didn't average 20 ppg by getting to the rim.

They averaged 20 ppg by shooting from midrange (due to crowded paints).

Otoh, today's players (mentioned in the OP) can average 20 ppg WITHOUT being able to shoot is because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's wide open spacing would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - but he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

Once again, your logic and reasoning is horrendous.

If players who can't even shoot are able to average 20 a game, why did the 90s feature more 20ppg scorers than the modern era, when it was supposedly tougher to get to the hoop?

Defense in the 90s was worse than it is now.

jstern

03-22-2016, 09:54 PM

Once again, your logic and reasoning is horrendous.

If players who can't even shoot are able to average 20 a game, why did the 90s feature more 20ppg scorers than the modern era, when it was supposedly tougher to get to the hoop?

Defense in the 90s was worse than it is now.

I randomly picked a season from the 90s, 92-1993, to see who the top scorers were and compared it to this year, and last year because this season is not over. And what I found to be the most interesting is that non of the players in the top 20 in scoring in 93 were point guards, while 5 player this year and last years were point guards. In 92-1993 6 of the top 20 scores were Centers, such as Olajuwon, Ewing, Mourning, David Robinson. While this year only 2 are Centers, with Lopez just making it in at number 20. And last year only 2 Centers, with Gasol making it in at number 20.

Makes you wonder about stats and how you can interpret them.

It's like it all adds up. The NBA changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score, and then we enter the point guard era. With 5 PGs per year in the top 20 in points, a position that's hindered in terms of scoring, because they also have to make the effort of running the offense and having other players score. If that wasn't the case maybe there would be even more PGs, in the top 20.

Nuff Said

03-22-2016, 10:00 PM

Are there any players you do respect in today's game?

Smoke117

03-22-2016, 10:17 PM

Are there any players you do respect in today's game?

He doesn't even watch todays game...

IllegalD

03-22-2016, 10:31 PM

.................eFG% All Jumpshots................ Midrange

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.2%, 727/1528............. 48.9%, 588/1202

Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.6%, 331/852.............. 38.4%, 174/403
Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.4%, 182/481.............. 39.5%, 115/291
Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 39.8%, 247/642.............. 38.9%, 144/370
Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):. 36.3%, 228/637.............. 36.4%, 143/393

Wade's midrange ability doesn't compare to that of Jordan or Kobe.

MJ and Kobe were 6'6" and longer - they could've started at SF for their entire careers no problem.. Their midrange game is on another level of Wade's.. Heck, Jordan led the league in scoring during his 2nd three-peat shooting mostly midrange jumpers - look at the stats - his volume and efficiency is unparalleled.

Wade has been a ball-dominator for most of his career.. He doesn't have a fraction of the catch-and-go, triple-threat or turnaround repertoire of Jordan or Kobe.. Wade has no clue about being a big man like those guys do.
.

I'm starting to like this 3ball fellar... :applause:

Boogey

03-22-2016, 10:43 PM

Duh

Curry better distance shooter

Jordan best mid

Lebron best stat padder. Someone tell that ***** to throw that ball full court b 4 the quarters end

3ball

03-22-2016, 11:21 PM

If today's players who can't even shoot are able to average 20 a game,

why did the 90s feature more 20ppg scorers than the modern era, when it was supposedly tougher to get to the hoop?

They shot great from midrange, since it was harder to get to the hoop.. But in today's game, players don't need to be good shooters since it's EASY to get to the hole.

Lebron, Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Btw, the 90's only had TWO 30-point scorers, while the 2000's had 8... This is because more bad shooters took advantage of easier penetration (iverson, tmac, etc).

defense was worse in the 90's

Lebron, Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - but he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

It's simply WAY easier to get to the hole in today's game - the league officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that easier penetration was the objective of the rule changes in 2005 (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds).

imdaman99

03-22-2016, 11:37 PM

Westbrook was missing the best player on his team and his stretch 4 in Ibaka for much of last season and he did fine. Yes his efficiency was worse than usual but he was almost their ONLY option on offense. If he played all season, he would have still got them to the playoffs. Which doesn't mean he plays better without the spacing, spacing helps everyone. You think Curry or Kobe or MJ would still be as dominant if they didn't have great shooters on their team? Absolutely not. Don't act like MJ never had great shooters on his team.

livinglegend

03-22-2016, 11:41 PM

Your brain also need more spacing since Lebron is occupying almost the whole capacity of it.

3ball

03-22-2016, 11:42 PM

Don't act like MJ never had great shooters on his team.

He didn't.. His teammates were horrible 3-point shooters compared to today's players.

The Bulls attempted 5 threes per game in 1991... Today's teams attempt 24 threes per game.. It's not even close.

But again - players don't need to be good shooters to score well in today's game since it's EASY to get to the hole.

Lebron, Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Wade and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Jacks3

03-22-2016, 11:56 PM

3ball

03-23-2016, 12:01 AM

.
THREAD CLIFFS:

In today's game, good shooting from midrange or 3-point range is NOT required to be a good scorer because it's easy to get to the hole.

Lebron, Westbrook, Butler, Wade and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - except he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

It's simply WAY easier to get to the hole in today's game - the league officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) that easier penetration was the objective of the rule changes in 2005 (hand-check ban, defensive 3 seconds).

3ball

03-23-2016, 12:18 AM

Kobe and MJ had crappy spacing on their teams compared to some of these modern stars.

Agreed - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to draw defenders to the perimeter, so the paint was often too crowded to penetrate - pulling up from midrange was the only option:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

Packed paints like these make penetration virtually impossible, which is why wings in previous eras HAD to be good midrange shooters to average 20 ppg.

Otoh, Lebron, Westbrook, Butler, Wade and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still the NBA's best scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Dresta

03-23-2016, 12:18 AM

Yes, Wade "needed" spacing so bad he won a title with his team shooting 29% from 3 in the ECF and 31% from 3 in the Finals, while averaging 27 on 68TS% and 35 on 57TS% respectively.

Dat need for spacing :rolleyes:

GrapeApe

03-23-2016, 12:21 AM

3ball

03-23-2016, 12:33 AM

Yes, Wade "needed" spacing so bad he won a title with his team shooting 29% from 3 in the ECF and 31% from 3 in the Finals, while averaging 27 on 68TS% and 35 on 57TS% respectively.

It's the THREAT of the 3-pointer that draws the defender out and provides the spacing - the Mavs only shot 28% in 2011 Finals but they had great spacing because they ATTEMPTED 18 per game.

The Heat attempted 18 threes per game in 2006 as well - that's a ton of spacing to help Wade's efficiency IN ADDITION to the hands-off defense and defensive 3 seconds that the league was just learning how to deal with - remember, Thibbs' flooding hadn't been introduced yet in 2006.

It was literally the softest defensive period in history - tons of spacing, no hand-checking, no flooding.

The stats reflect the easy defensive environment - league-wide offensive rating, pace and PPG was higher in 2006 than Jordan's 2nd three-peat.. ORtg reached an all-time highs in 2009 despite the lower offensive rebounding rates from shooting more 3-pointers.

3ball

03-23-2016, 12:43 AM

None of those guys are even in the top 5 in scoring.

Westbrook was scoring champ last season despite poor 3-point and midrange efficiency.

Wade was scoring champ in 2009 despite poor 3-point and midrange efficiency.

Lebron averaged 30 ppg in 2010 and has been a top scorer his entire career despite poor 3-point and midrange efficiency.

Guys like Butler and Derozan average 20 ppg+ despite poor midrange and 3-point efficency.. So keep saying dumb shit.. It's an obvious fact that wing players don't need to be good shooters to be a good scorers in today's game.

Just sayin.

You're desperate.

Lebron, Westbrook, Butler, Wade and Derozan had poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, but they're still among the NBA's best wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Today's open game would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way - except he would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over his aforementioned, non-shooting peers.
.

Akhenaten

03-23-2016, 01:13 AM

First off shots from 16 foot or more are NOT mid-range shots. Last I checked mid is short for middle i.e. "medium" distance. If we divide the scoring zone (24 feet from rim to top of three point line) into thirds a midrange would be 8-16 feet. Wade from this distance is a good shooter 42%+ for his career. I base this off shooting splits on bball reference.

He's 39% for his career from 10-16 and 46% from 3-10 ft, so 42% from 8-16 is a fair estimation IMO. Also whoever said that floaters, runners, push shots etc where the "same" shot and are basic shots couldn't be more wrong.

There's much more variation in the releases, touch and footwork required to be prolific at those shots that a jumpshot. The most basic shot in basketball is the jumpshot. Also runner's/floaters etc are THE toughest shots to be prolific at in basketball.

The 3-10 ft range shot is the least attempted and lowest percentage made shot in all the NBA.
That in between, in between or mid mid range is the hardest shot to make STATISCALLY. Wade shoots 46% on those shots on over 3 attempts a game. Kobe is right around the same for his career.

Point being Wade is above average mid range, kobe/Jordan level? No, but more than good enough to where he'd rape in ANY era regardless of "spacing". Wade attempts way more shoots at the rim and converts on a MUCH higher percentage than a Kobe though (not sure about J, bball ref shot splits only go back to 01), Wade would do that in any era, particularly considering his bread and butter; which is attacking downhill off a middle pick and roll.

He's such a freak athletically, especially horizontally with his quickness and agility then when combined with his freakish explosion, ball handling, body control, balance, strength, touch.

Dude would bubble ANY era, with or without 3 point shooters to spread the floor. Just look at his 09 season, 30 ppg on 49% with damn the worst three point shooting team surrounding him. Come on man kiki Vandaweigh was avg 27 ppg on 54% plus in the 80s. Wade would rape the 80's, not to mention his open court game.cmon man

3ball

03-23-2016, 01:38 AM

Point being Wade is above average mid range, kobe/Jordan level? No

And that's all we're talking about - Wade's midrange ability is nothing compared to MJ's:

EFFICIENCY AND ATTEMPTS FROM 8-16 FEET

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.8%, 353/682

Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 37.2%, 92/247
Wade.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 44.7%, 97/217
Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 45.7%, 86/188
Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 37.9%, 81/214
Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):. 32.8%, 80/244

It isn't even close - MJ had much better midrange efficiency on THREE times the volume.. :confusedshrug:
.

Akhenaten

03-23-2016, 01:50 AM

And that's all we're talking about - Wade's midrange ability is nothing compared to MJ's:

.

Was this in dispute or something?:biggums:

BTW what are Jordan's career numbers 8-16 ft? Do you have what the league average for that distance? And where are you getting your stats from?

I estimate wade to be at 42% for his career based on combining his 3-10 and 8-16 stats from bball reference.

3ball

03-23-2016, 04:51 AM

EFFICIENCY AND ATTEMPTS FROM 8-16 FEET

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 51.8%, 353/682

Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 37.2%, 92/247
Wade.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 44.7%, 97/217
Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 45.7%, 86/188
Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 37.9%, 81/214
Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):. 32.8%, 80/244

And where are you getting your stats from?

The stats only go back to 1997.. They're from nba.com and my post linked every stat to the data, as shown above.

Jordan shot literally 10 percentage points better from midrange than Wade, on THREE times the volume..

what are Jordan's career numbers 8-16 ft?

Don't feel bad about Jordan's shooting stats being far better than Wade's - Jordan had a GOAT 2-point jumpshot that was better than Curry's.. He shot far better than Curry on jumpshots inside the 3-point line, on FIVE times the volume:

......................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- links to nba.com data

8-16 ft......... 51.8%, 682 fga........... 46.8%, 126 fga........ 50.0%, 90 fga

16-24 ft....... 48.2%, 495 fga........... 39.4%, 218 fga........ 45.1%, 113 fga

Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga

CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 45.0%, 160 fga

3ball

03-23-2016, 04:53 AM

I estimate wade to be at 42% for his career based on combining his 3-10 and 8-16 stats from bball reference.

Maybe... But my point is that wing scorers in previous eras were forced to be great midrange shooters because the paint was often too crowded to penetrate - players often had no choice but to pull-up from midrange:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

Otoh, today's wing player can be a great scorer without being a good shooter because lane penetration is easier.. Lebron, Westbrook, Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still among the NBA's best wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.
.

Achilleas

03-23-2016, 05:01 AM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

what is this 8 players in the paint :biggums:
wtf basket is this,at age 8 they learn us this is not the right way of basketball :confusedshrug:

and the other player what he kicks :lol

3ball

03-23-2016, 05:08 AM

what is this 8 players in the paint :biggums:
wtf basket is this,at age 8 they learn us this is not the right way of basketball :confusedshrug:

Previous eras didn't have today's volume 3-point shooting that draws everyone out of the paint.. Everyone crowded the paint and made it penetration impossible, so good scorers HAD to be good midrange shooters:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif

Otoh, today's wing player can be a great scorer without being a good shooter because lane penetration is easier..

Lebron, Westbrook, Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, but they're still among the NBA's best wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before.

Akhenaten

03-23-2016, 07:12 PM

The stats only go back to 1997.. They're from nba.com and my post linked every stat to the data, as shown above.

Jordan shot literally 10 percentage points better from midrange than Wade, on THREE times the volume..

Don't feel bad about Jordan's shooting stats being far better than Wade's - Jordan had a GOAT 2-point jumpshot that was better than Curry's.. He shot far better than Curry on jumpshots inside the 3-point line, on FIVE times the volume:

Why would anybody feel bad about that? He's freaking Jordan! da hell :oldlol:

bro you realize youre arguing with ghosts right?
your entire career is based on proving that Jordan is the best player ever

you do understand that jordan is the closest we have to a consensus goat right? what is wrong with you man? seriously