For the 'everyone deserves a trophy/make excuses/its not your fault' people...

[UK2K]

I am going to intentionally leave out political labels...

But if you are one of those people, when you read these quotes, what is your reaction?

[QUOTE]

[falc39]

Life is competition. No matter how hard people try, it will always remain so. You never hear of winners complaining about the refs. Those who choose to spend their time complaining about where they are in life are just sowing the seeds for more failure.

[UK2K]

Life is competition. No matter how hard people try, it will always remain so. You never hear of winners complaining about the refs. Those who choose to spend their time complaining about where they are in life are just sowing the seeds for more failure.
True.

I wonder though, if your kid comes in second and you have to explain why they don't get a trophy, what do parents tell them?

I'm not a parent yet, but if it were me, you have to be truthful. 'You did a great job, but that kid is better. He practiced harder. He put in more work. If you want to win next time, you have to be the one willing to put in the work.'

But if you aren't telling your kid 'he worked harder than you', then what are you telling them? They ran out of trophies? Instead of challenging your kid to be better, what are you saying to them?

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE]

[Im Still Ballin]

The whootie is next gen

[christian1923]

True.

I wonder though, if your kid comes in second and you have to explain why they don't get a trophy, what do parents tell them?

I'm not a parent yet, but if it were me, you have to be truthful. 'You did a great job, but that kid is better. He practiced harder. He put in more work. If you want to win next time, you have to be the one willing to put in the work.'

But if you aren't telling your kid 'he worked harder than you', then what are you telling them? They ran out of trophies? Instead of challenging your kid to be better, what are you saying to them?
What age are the kids you are you talking about?

[falc39]

True.

I wonder though, if your kid comes in second and you have to explain why they don't get a trophy, what do parents tell them?

I'm not a parent yet, but if it were me, you have to be truthful. 'You did a great job, but that kid is better. He practiced harder. He put in more work. If you want to win next time, you have to be the one willing to put in the work.'

But if you aren't telling your kid 'he worked harder than you', then what are you telling them? They ran out of trophies? Instead of challenging your kid to be better, what are you saying to them?

I don't have a kid but I believe there are a couple of ways to go about it... A lot depending on how mature they are and such and how well they can take criticism. Failure is not the end of the world, the key is really the process and understanding that you can learn from failure. The greatest winners have all experienced failure at some point in their lives. Like you said, it's attiude that matters. Process matters. The big picture matters. As a society we sometimes put too much emphasis on the trophy whereas the real award is overcoming challenges and achieving goals. Complaining and not taking responsibility will never make you a winner.

[DonDadda59]

I don't have a kid but I believe there are a couple of ways to go about it... A lot depending on how mature they are and such and how well they can take criticism. Failure is not the end of the world, the key is really the process and understanding that you can learn from failure. The greatest winners have all experienced failure at some point in their lives. Like you said, it's attiude that matters. Process matters. The big picture matters. As a society we sometimes put to much emphasis on the trophy whereas the real award is overcoming challenges and achieving goals. Complaining and not taking responsibility will never make you a winner.

Now this is 1000% true. :applause:

You don't know who you really are, what you're capable of and made of until you fail and fail hard. I think it's important and healthy for people to experience failure after taking risks, and learning lessons from that. I think that's a great lesson for kids.

"A wise man sees failure as progress." -Canibus

[Long Duck Dong]

http://cdn5.movieclips.com/universal/m/meet-the-fockers-2004/0325538_4572_MC_UTx360.jpg

[DCL]

the road to success might require eating lots of humble pies. just do it early on and get that fking phase over with as soon as possible. :oldlol:

[DeuceWallaces]

I think you can find dumb quotes plastered on the walls of schools and offices all across America. More overboard commentary on the state of things and pc bullshit that doesn't exist. That's great. You should work hard. But as DD said, me hitting the books or the gym 6 hours a day will not make me a star football player, olympic athlete, or magically morph my parents into billionaires who can spot me a cool million after I finish my B.S.

Upward economic and social mobility is at an all time low, and something tells me a lack of will or determination is not the problem.

[UK2K]

There's a bit of truth in this but it's mostly bullshit. You and I could have spent 6 hours per day, 6 days per week, since we were 5 years old in the gym working on our basketball games and we would never in a million years be able to do the things LeBron James can do on a basketball court if he just played casually once a week at a rec center for fun.

It depends what field/activity/etc you're talking about, but innate talent matters most.
This is true to a degree...

You're right, I won't ever be 6'8". But to say that you and I can't make it to the NBA with a desire and free reign to practice every day is a lie.

Tyler Ulis won SEC player of the year and Defensive player of the year. He's 5'9". Yeah he can't do what Ben Simmons can do, but to argue he's not as good of a basketball player is false.

So yeah, I won't ever have LeBron physical attributes, but Steph Curry won't either, and it hasn't stopped him.

You ever read his college scouting reports? Too small. Not quick enough. Won't make it. That's what you're telling me now.

[Nick Young]

This is why kids should be taught to take responsibility for their actions from a young age.

Kids who suck at something shouldn't be awarded trophies and told that they're just as good as the kids who work hard and have talent.

If a kid sucks at something, they need to know that they suck. They will either quit doing what they do and get disheartened, or they will work their ass off until they become good, or atleast capable at whatever skill they work on.

Participation trophies are the worst things ever.


When I played AYSO soccer my team would lose games by like 7-0 and 10-0, at the end of the season we still got a trophy. And individual team awards were awarded to everyone, even the fat kid who always played centerback and was primarily responsible for us leaking all those goals all season long.

It is wrong to reward kids for going 0-10 for a season and losing every game by 5+ goals.

[Nick Young]

I think you can find dumb quotes plastered on the walls of schools and offices all across America. More overboard commentary on the state of things and pc bullshit that doesn't exist. That's great. You should work hard. But as DD said, me hitting the books or the gym 6 hours a day will not make me a star football player, olympic athlete, or magically morph my parents into billionaires who can spot me a cool million after I finish my B.S.

Upward economic and social mobility is at an all time low, and something tells me a lack of will or determination is not the problem.
Lack of will is the exact problem. Kids rarely work their asses off to achieve great things these days because loser attitude defeatists like you tell them not to. "You have no chance kid. You might as well not even try."

That's a great way to inspire strong work ethic in the developing mind of a child :cheers:

[DeuceWallaces]

Lack of will is the exact problem. Kids rarely work their asses off to achieve great things these days because loser attitude defeatists like you tell them not to. "You have no chance kid. You might as well not even try."

That's a great way to inspire strong work ethic in the developing mind of a child :cheers:

Most kids work their asses off; and rightfully so. That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the difficulty of our current system.

[tobethdope]

there is a difference between winning and losing and being successful; also, people have different opinions on what makes a winner or a loser

people like nick young (the poster on ish) for example will always be a losers in my book no matter how successful they are

[Nick Young]

Most kids work their asses off; and rightfully so.
no they don't. Most kids have no idea what hard work really is.

Most kids try a little bit and then quit when things get too hard. Then when they grow up they play the victim and blame every outside force under the sun for their own failure, rather than taking responsibility for either not being very good, or not working hard enough.



That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the difficulty of our current system.

Bigger population=more competition.
Yes. The world is hard. The world has always been hard. It is hard to achieve great things. Life isn't fair. Some people are born legless and blind in a gutter in Kabul. Some people are born in palaces in Monaco. Do you want a cookie? Will that help you feel better about the facts of life? :confusedshrug:

[nathanjizzle]

you have all of these ****** ass qoutes in your office. you must be a loser. these qoutes already exist in my head, i create them everyday.

[UK2K]

What age are the kids you are you talking about?

I don't know. 8? 10? 12?

I remember when I was in 7th grade, I was 12 years old, I was playing basketball for 5 different teams at the same time.

That's 5 different practices. 5 different games. 5 different uniforms. 5 different playbooks.

But that's what I lived for. I had regional tournament MVP's, AAU MVP's, MVP for this and that, you name it, I had it. At that age, I already knew hard work meant success, and I was going to outwork everyone.

8 may be a bit young, but telling the truth at that age will pay off later down the road, IMO.

[DonDadda59]

This is true to a degree...

You're right, I won't ever be 6'8". But to say that you and I can't make it to the NBA with a desire and free reign to practice every day is a lie.

I never even hinted at that. Guys like Mugsy Bogues and Earl Boykins made the NBA when conventional wisdom says that's virtually impossible. I'm sure they worked their asses off to even make their HS JV squads, let alone the pro ranks. Isaiah Thomas is physically an average dude- 5'9" 180 lbs and he's the best player on a playoff bound team.

I'm just saying, LeBron James could've been a very good/borderline all star caliber player in the NBA when he was 16 years old. No amount of hard work, training, determination, etc is going to make up for that gap in innate talent.

Thomas, Bogues, Boykins, Nate Robinson (even though he's a bit of a genetic freak himself) didn't get $100 million sneaker deals out of High School before they played a minute in the NBA and LeBron did for a reason.


So yeah, I won't ever have LeBron physical attributes, but Steph Curry won't either, and it hasn't stopped him.

You ever read his college scouting reports? Too small. Not quick enough. Won't make it. That's what you're telling me now.

Steph was blessed with many things that the average person isn't which led to his success.

For one, he has elite level hand-eye coordination (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/watch-steph-curry-complete-the-most-insane-ball-handling-drill), something he probably inherited genetically from his father (his mother was also an athlete). He's also 6'3" which makes him taller than the vast majority of the inhabitants of the planet.

He also had the advantage of learning personally from one of the best shooters on the planet in his father as well as having access to world class basketball facilities since he first picked up a basketball.

http://cbssports.com/images/visual/whatshot/stephdrazen.jpg

^I mean that's him when he was Riley's age, right in the middle of a 3-point contest, hanging out with his father Dell, Mitch Richmond, and Drazen Petrovic.

It's really not surprising to anyone I think that NBA players' offspring often times end up being NBA players themselves despite the chances of making the league being miniscule for the general basketball playing population.

[DeuceWallaces]

no they don't. Most kids have no idea what hard work really is.

Most kids try a little bit and then quit when things get too hard. Then when they grow up they play the victim and blame every outside force under the sun for their own failure, rather than taking responsibility for either not being very good, or not working hard enough.




Bigger population=more competition.
Yes. The world is hard. The world has always been hard. It is hard to achieve great things. Life isn't fair. Some people are born legless and blind in a gutter in Kabul. Some people are born in palaces in Monaco. Do you want a cookie? Will that help you feel better about the facts of life? :confusedshrug:

You are entitled and clueless.

[DeuceWallaces]

You need to get your head checked if you think all it takes is hard work to make the NBA or any professional sports league. I guess all those DI athletes just didn't work hard enough.

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsTCsmqkezQ

[Kvnzhangyay]

I think the main problem is that people try to ignore the fact that some people are just smarter and better than other people

[UK2K]

I never even hinted at that. Guys like Mugsy Bogues and Earl Boykins made the NBA when conventional wisdom says that's virtually impossible. I'm sure they worked their asses off to even make their HS JV squads, let alone the pro ranks. Isaiah Thomas is physically an average dude- 5'9" 180 lbs and he's the best player on a playoff bound team.

I'm just saying, LeBron James could've been a very good/borderline all star caliber player in the NBA when he was 16 years old. No amount of hard work, training, determination, etc is going to make up for that gap in innate talent.

Thomas, Bogues, Boykins, Nate Robinson (even though he's a bit of a genetic freak himself) didn't get $100 million sneaker deals out of High School before they played a minute in the NBA and LeBron did for a reason.



Steph was blessed with many things that the average person isn't which led to his success.

For one, he has elite level hand-eye coordination (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/watch-steph-curry-complete-the-most-insane-ball-handling-drill), something he probably inherited genetically from his father (his mother was also an athlete). He's also 6'3" which makes him taller than the vast majority of the inhabitants of the planet.

He also had the advantage of learning personally from one of the best shooters on the planet in his father as well as having access to world class basketball facilities since he first picked up a basketball.

http://cbssports.com/images/visual/whatshot/stephdrazen.jpg

^I mean that's him when he was Riley's age, right in the middle of a 3-point contest, hanging out with his father Dell, Mitch Richmond, and Drazen Petrovic.

It's really not surprising to anyone I think that NBA players' offspring often times end up being NBA players themselves despite the chances of making the league being miniscule for the general basketball playing population.

Ok, what you just said, I get. It is easier for some than others. That doesn't mean your average Joe can't achieve what they are.

Lebron's size? Yeah that can't be replicated. You want to use his size at 16 because it fits your point, but even at 18, there were still players better than him. Was he the best 18 year old in the world? Maybe. But he wasn't the best basketball player on the planet then, and he's not now. However, between then and now, he was. Why? Because he had to work at it.

Even people like Lebron and Shaq can't just show up and expect to be great. Yeah they can show up at the local YMCA and be the best, but big deal.

As for Curry... what you said proves my point to a T. His hand eye coordination?

http://www.outsideonline.com/1959876/4-easy-drills-improve-hand-eye-coordination

There you go. Practice all day. You practice enough, I guarantee you, 100% without a doubt, that at some point your hand-eye coordination will be as good as his is one day.

He was surrounded by good shooters? What's that have to do with anything. Tyson Chandler was coached by Steve Kerr, but that doesn't automatically make him a good shooter. Curry had to practice shooting. Then practice some more. Then some more. Then more. And more. And more. And more. He's probably the best shooter in the world right now, maybe ever, and I promise if you ask him how many shots hes put up in his life, he couldn't tell you.

Again, he had to practice at it. If you sit around and practice three point shots 8 hours a day for years, you'll be a pretty good shooter too. The question is, is it worth it to you? Probably not, and that's where his will, in this instance, is stronger than yours.

[Nick Young]

You are entitled and clueless.
You were raised to believe you're a victim by your single mother who used the victimization tactic herself to great success to get through life, so I understand where you're coming from bro. No worries, even if I disagree with you, I respect your opinion. :cheers:

It's not your fault.
http://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mab2gzHeHb1qm339ko1_500.gif

ISH is here for you.

[Nick Young]

Ok, what you just said, I get. It is easier for some than others. That doesn't mean your average Joe can't achieve what they are.

Lebron's size? Yeah that can't be replicated. You want to use his size at 16 because it fits your point, but even at 18, there were still players better than him. Was he the best 18 year old in the world? Maybe. But he wasn't the best basketball player on the planet then, and he's not now. However, between then and now, he was. Why? Because he had to work at it.

Even people like Lebron and Shaq can't just show up and expect to be great. Yeah they can show up at the local YMCA and be the best, but big deal.

As for Curry... what you said proves my point to a T. His hand eye coordination?

http://www.outsideonline.com/1959876/4-easy-drills-improve-hand-eye-coordination

There you go. Practice all day. You practice enough, I guarantee you, 100% without a doubt, that at some point your hand-eye coordination will be as good as his is one day.

He was surrounded by good shooters? What's that have to do with anything. Tyson Chandler was coached by Steve Kerr, but that doesn't automatically make him a good shooter. Curry had to practice shooting. Then practice some more. Then some more. Then more. And more. And more. And more. He's probably the best shooter in the world right now, maybe ever, and I promise if you ask him how many shots hes put up in his life, he couldn't tell you.

Again, he had to practice at it. If you sit around and practice three point shots 8 hours a day for years, you'll be a pretty good shooter too. The question is, is it worth it to you? Probably not, and that's where his will, in this instance, is stronger than yours.
Not everyone gets to be a Lebron or a Curry. Both are world class athletes with world class hand eye coordination and intense drive to succeed.



HOWEVER, nothing is stopping people from maxing out their own potential. 99.9% of people don't, because they come up with bullshit excuses that hold them back their entire lives.


Some people are just born stupid and with no talent in anything, but I personally believe that even these people are capable at becoming successful at something, if they were willing to work their asses off.

[UK2K]

Not everyone gets to be a Lebron or a Curry. Both are world class athletes with world class hand eye coordination and intense drive to succeed.



HOWEVER, nothing is stopping people from maxing out their own potential. 99.9% of people don't, because they come up with bullshit excuses that hold them back their entire lives.


Some people are just born stupid and with no talent in anything, but I personally believe that even these people are capable at becoming successful at something, if they were willing to work their asses off.

That much is true, but I think you are selling an individual short.

Like I said, not everyone has the physical attributes that Lebron and Curry have. That being said, I think that if anybody really wanted to shoot as well as Curry, there's nothing stopping them but the will and the practice.

Chris Webber 98-99
.454% FT shooter

Chris Webber 99-00
.751% FT shooter

How can that be, that someone can raise their FT % 30 points in a year?

[QUOTE]In his first 8 years Tyson Chandler attempted 1789 free throws and made 1071 of them for a 59.87% mark but in his ninth season he suddenly became 73+% shooter. And it wasn

[DeuceWallaces]

You were raised to believe you're a victim by your single mother who used the victimization tactic herself to great success to get through life, so I understand where you're coming from bro. No worries, even if I disagree with you, I respect your opinion. :cheers:

It's not your fault.
http://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mab2gzHeHb1qm339ko1_500.gif

ISH is here for you.

I've actually achieved something after being born into nothing. I know how hard it is, and how lucky you have to be on top of the determination and will power.

[Nick Young]

That much is true, but I think you are selling an individual short.

Like I said, not everyone has the physical attributes that Lebron and Curry have. That being said, I think that if anybody really wanted to shoot as well as Curry, there's nothing stopping them but the will and the practice.

I don't think this is true. Some players just aren't capable of becoming great shooters no matter how hard they work.

I read an article about Curry's training coming back from rehab and his trainer said Curry tested with the most insane hand-eye coordination and nervous system that he had ever seen. Curry is a savant genius at basketball and it's unfair to compare regular people, or even regular NBA caliber ballers to him.

In contrast, Jerry Sloan is on record as saying that Raphael Araujo was the hardest working gym rat he had ever seen while working in the NBA. He would spend all his extra time working on his game. Even so, Araujo was nothing more but a 15th man bench scrub. All the same, that is no shame. Araujo maxed out his potential. He was not great in comparison to great NBA players, but he still achieved greatness by being one of the few ballers who made it to the NBA and had a multi-year career playing basketball at the highest level.


Not everyone gets to be a superstar genius. Not everyone has the potential to become a billionaire entrepreneur. But nothing is stopping people from becoming the best version of themselves that they can be.

Participation trophies encourage the idea in kids that they are all special snowflake superstars. This is a toxic idea to implant in the head of a kid from a young age, especially if that kid has very little talent.

[Akrazotile]

I think you can find dumb quotes plastered on the walls of schools and offices all across America. More overboard commentary on the state of things and pc bullshit that doesn't exist. That's great. You should work hard. But as DD said, me hitting the books or the gym 6 hours a day will not make me a star football player, olympic athlete, or magically morph my parents into billionaires who can spot me a cool million after I finish my B.S.

Upward economic and social mobility is at an all time low, and something tells me a lack of will or determination is not the problem.

Uhh, it's definitely a part of it. That's why children of immigrants have always outperformed natives. America has a huge population of people whove long since lost the immigrant drive. We are a complacent country. Look at the obesity. You think that's about something more than personal lack of will? Someone force feeding everyone big macs and fries? Tons of information is available, free audiobooks online, but people spend more time on TMZ than listening to something by Rousseau free on youtube.

We get it dude. You want to find your place by being the hero for the disenfranchised. By being the David standing up to corporate or majority-group Goliath. But the problem is your posturing and posing inhibts you being objective. Youre looking for a role to play, a way to be needed and feel important. Your left wing ideology satisfies that. But unfortunately it's not rooted in reality. It's rooted in your own desire to create a lopsided fairytale in which you get to show ofd by being the white knight in shining armor, the social justice hero. Youre livin a fantasy dude. It's sad you still cant be an adult and try to look at the truth, and accept your insignificance on the social totem pole.

[Nick Young]

I've actually achieved something after being born into nothing. I know how hard it is, and how lucky you have to be on top of the determination and will power.
Utmost props and respect :cheers:

[DeuceWallaces]

Uhh, it's definitely a part of it. That's why children of immigrants have always outperformed natives. America has a huge population of people whove long since lost the immigrant drive. We are a complacent country. Look at the obesity. You think that's about something more than personal lack of will? Someone force feeding everyone big macs and fries? Tons of information is available, free audiobooks online, but people spend more time on TMZ than listening to something by Rousseau free on youtube.

We get it dude. You want to find your place by being the hero for the disenfranchised. By being the David standing up to corporate or majority-group Goliath. But the problem is your posturing and posing inhibts you being objective. Youre looking for a role to play, a way to be needed and feel important. Your left wing ideology satisfies that. But unfortunately it's not rooted in reality. It's rooted in your own desire to create a lopsided fairytale in which you get to show ofd by being the white knight in shining armor, the social justice hero. Youre livin a fantasy dude. It's sad you still cant be an adult and try to look at the truth, and accept your insignificance on the social totem pole.

Your life is exhibit A. I feel sorry for your parents. Although, I think just because you haven't done shit with your life after being given every opportunity, doesn't mean we should accuse everyone else struggling as lacking will power or determination or deny the reality of US upward mobility.

[Labissiere]

I'm ok with everybody getting participation trophies, as long as the winners get a bigger trophy and everybody knows it.

[falc39]

I think you can find dumb quotes plastered on the walls of schools and offices all across America. More overboard commentary on the state of things and pc bullshit that doesn't exist. That's great. You should work hard. But as DD said, me hitting the books or the gym 6 hours a day will not make me a star football player, olympic athlete, or magically morph my parents into billionaires who can spot me a cool million after I finish my B.S.

Upward economic and social mobility is at an all time low, and something tells me a lack of will or determination is not the problem.

They aren't dumb quotes. A lot of people would benefit to heed the wisdom in them.

Let's see... star football player, olympic athlete, billionarie parents... is that your idea of success? 99.9999%. Those are cream of the crop, the very top of their fields. You are right in the sense that it takes a whole lot more than 6 hours a day to reach that level of elite performance or financial wealth. That's how it should be.


Most kids work their asses off; and rightfully so. That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the difficulty of our current system.

It's competition. Working hard doesn't mean much if someone else is doing the same. "Working hard" is relative. A lot of us work hard. But I know people who would laugh at what we would consider to be working hard. What about working smart? Being resourceful? Attitude matters more than working hard. I'll put my money 100% of the time on someone who is positive and has iron-will determination over someone who does not.

There are always problems and you can always critique the system, but it goes a lot deeper than that. It comes down to culture. Ideologies, values, and principles. These are things that you can't just throw money at and expect them to be corrected. It's the reason why some people see those quotes everyday and not realize the key to success is slapping them right in the face.

[Heilige]

They aren't dumb quotes. A lot of people would benefit to heed the wisdom in them.

Let's see... star football player, olympic athlete, billionarie parents... is that your idea of success? 99.9999%. Those are cream of the crop, the very top of their fields. You are right in the sense that it takes a whole lot more than 6 hours a day to reach that level of elite performance or financial wealth. That's how it should be.



How many hours a day does it take?

[falc39]

How many hours a day does it take?

That's a very general question and really depends. It's definitely not 6 though :oldlol: . Go read some biographies of real successful people and maybe come back and report it to us. There was a book that came out that said you need something like 10,000 total hours to master something. But really, if you are just counting hours then I don't think you are getting the point. It's about the process.

[Heilige]

That's a very general question and really depends. It's definitely not 6 though :oldlol: . Go read some biographies of real successful people and maybe come back and report it to us. There was a book that came out that said you need something like 10,000 total hours to master something. But really, if you are just counting hours then I don't think you are getting the point. It's about the process.


Can you elaborate on the process? I guess I don't really get it. You can be involved in the process and still not be successful or am I wrong?

[UK2K]

Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Most kids work their asses off; and rightfully so. That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the difficulty of our current system.

Since when? Even when I was in high school 10 years ago, 3/4 of my class didn't work. Probably more than that. I was one of the only people I knew who had a job. I made cookies during the school year, and on breaks and during the summer I cleaned horse stalls. Literally shoveled horse shit.

High school is a ****ing joke. If you cant work a 20 hour a week job and graduate high school, you have bigger problems in life.

[DeuceWallaces]

They aren't dumb quotes. A lot of people would benefit to heed the wisdom in them.

Let's see... star football player, olympic athlete, billionarie parents... is that your idea of success? 99.9999%. Those are cream of the crop, the very top of their fields. You are right in the sense that it takes a whole lot more than 6 hours a day to reach that level of elite performance or financial wealth. That's how it should be.



It's competition. Working hard doesn't mean much if someone else is doing the same. "Working hard" is relative. A lot of us work hard. But I know people who would laugh at what we would consider to be working hard. What about working smart? Being resourceful? Attitude matters more than working hard. I'll put my money 100% of the time on someone who is positive and has iron-will determination over someone who does not.

There are always problems and you can always critique the system, but it goes a lot deeper than that. It comes down to culture. Ideologies, values, and principles. These are things that you can't just throw money at and expect them to be corrected. It's the reason why some people see those quotes everyday and not realize the key to success is slapping them right in the face.

Yes. They are stupid cliches that don't reflect reality. "Work hard." Yeah, no shit. If you need a picture of Vince Lombardi to get through your day, you've already lost.

There are plenty of scientific studies that illustrate economic, social, and academic upward mobility are harder than ever and it goes well beyond being lazy.

[DeuceWallaces]

Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Most kids work their asses off; and rightfully so. That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the difficulty of our current system.

Since when? Even when I was in high school 10 years ago, 3/4 of my class didn't work. Probably more than that. I was one of the only people I knew who had a job. I made cookies during the school year, and on breaks and during the summer I cleaned horse stalls. Literally shoveled horse shit.

High school is a ****ing joke. If you cant work a 20 hour a week job and graduate high school, you have bigger problems in life.

Congratulations. Most everyone has a job by junior year of high school. Even in this shit economy 16-19 year old employment ratio is like 30%.

[97 bulls]

I think there's some truth in what everyone is saying. You need talent, will/desire, support, and most of all in our society, you need a lot of luck. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not what you know, it who you know.


We also must realize that success means different things to different people. Like the FT% example. Tyson Chandler shooting 73% is a tremendous success for him. If Steph Curry were to shoot 73% for a season, he's be looked at as a failure.


We spend far to much time judging individuals based on our own personal expectaions.

[falc39]

Can you elaborate on the process? I guess I don't really get it. You can be involved in the process and still not be successful or am I wrong?

Process is just a way to express all the work and investment to get from point A to point b. Everyone likes to see the results, because the rewards of success is what makes people feel good. But process is all the hard work, preparation, failures, etc. that lead up to that success. There is no detailed formula for process and for every individual it will be different. It's fools gold to think it is that easy. Many people have been duped into thinking that because they have degree = they will now be guaranteed success.

[UK2K]

Utmost props and respect :cheers:
I dont think my climb out of nothingness was luck at all though.

I didn't win the lottery or cash out at the casino. I moved across the country before I turned my life around. That's not lucky at all. Once there, I got a job and enrolled in school. One thing led to another and here I am. My promotion wasn't luck. My raise wasn't luck. My bonus wasn't luck.

I guess you could consider having a place to live 'lucky'.

I was 'lucky' in finding my girlfriend now. She made me want to be something more. In that regard, I'm the luckiest guy in the world.

[KyrieTheFuture]

This is true to a degree...

You're right, I won't ever be 6'8". But to say that you and I can't make it to the NBA with a desire and free reign to practice every day is a lie.

Tyler Ulis won SEC player of the year and Defensive player of the year. He's 5'9". Yeah he can't do what Ben Simmons can do, but to argue he's not as good of a basketball player is false.

So yeah, I won't ever have LeBron physical attributes, but Steph Curry won't either, and it hasn't stopped him.

You ever read his college scouting reports? Too small. Not quick enough. Won't make it. That's what you're telling me now.
The **** is this? Ben Simmons is easily a better basketball player.

And that Lasorda quote sucks

[blablabla]

I was taught throughout my life that the difference between winners and losers is attitude. To this day, I agree with that. But in our world of hypersensitivity today, would these quotes be put up in an elementary school? Would they be put up a rec league? I don't think they would, because they teach us that some people will excel and some won't.

Just random thoughts for the day...
Great lesson to be thought sure, very inspirational but its simply not true. Sure you have to be determined to reach certain goals but there are also a million other factors coming into play. You are looking at this from a very simple angle, comparing fvcking free throw percentages to prove some stupid point. Chris Webber was getting paid millions of dollars and had all the time in the world with the best coaches to practice his free throw shooting. Unbreakable spirit and iron will as a way to success or whatever other pseudo heroic bs you people believe in doesn't apply to the real world. Hard work does create opportunity and success but you got to have an opportunity to work hard. Some ghetto kids probably can't even afford a ball to practice and you are here talking about hard work. The gap between rich and poor is widening every year , ghetto schools can't even afford fvcking textbooks because of your countries retarded school financing system, it is not about excuses its about a reality that is crushing the dreams of lower class kids before they can even work on achieving them. Also congrats to your middle management job you ignorant fvck you are a true inspiration for every middle class white guy out there

[longtime lurker]

Isn't OP a security guard?

[Jailblazers7]

I don't think believing in hard work while also believing that the world is more complicated than a Vince Lombardi quote are incompatible.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Isn't OP a security guard?

Damn

[Nick Young]

Yes. They are stupid cliches that don't reflect reality. "Work hard." Yeah, no shit. If you need a picture of Vince Lombardi to get through your day, you've already lost.

There are plenty of scientific studies that illustrate economic, social, and academic upward mobility are harder than ever and it goes well beyond being lazy.
what a defeatist loser attitude. giving up without even trying:facepalm

You're obsessed with class. Guess what bro. if you keep telling yourself that you aren't capable of achieving something, you're never going to achieve it.

[DeuceWallaces]

what a defeatist loser attitude. giving up without even trying:facepalm

You're obsessed with class. Guess what bro. if you keep telling yourself that you aren't capable of achieving something, you're never going to achieve it.

I've already achieved it.

[falc39]

I don't think believing in hard work while also believing that the world is more complicated than a Vince Lombardi quote are incompatible.

You would think that would be assumed but maybe we aren't at that point yet after reading some of the replies in this thread.

I know when I say hard work, I mean it to be everything that you can do to give yourself the best chance to succeed. For some, they may have a narrow perspective of just working until you are tired, or studying a lot, or getting good grades; but that would be very limiting view of what hard work is. Hard work to me is really the whole gamut: from improving your mannerisms, habits, resourcefulness, networking, knowledge, etc. Those who have a great work ethic and determination will never want to cease and stop improving on such things and they will be way better off because of it.

At the end of the day, it still needs to be seen from the perspective of competition because that's what it is. If you're dream job is hiring and there are 40 applicants, it will go something like this (for simplicity):

20 are "hard" workers and prepared for the interview, and 20 are not.
Of those 20 hard workers, maybe 8 are extremely hard working or have standout talent, knowledge, or personality for the job.
Of those 8, maybe 2 or 3 is the complete package.
But in the end, still only one will get hired.

People don't realize that doing the bare minimum of what you may consider to be hard work may very well not be enough, in most cases you don't even stand a chance. Hard work is relative, and the employer doesn't care what you think you deserve for your work. Peoples' value based judgments of themselves may be way out of line of what the market actually values them at. That's the reality of it and it's a message a lot of people need to hear these days. This is a sports message board and we praise our athletes for their hard work and determination, yet it surprises me that we treat it anywhere else like it is a myth. It is not. Competition is everywhere in life and not just in sports. All else being equal, those who have great work ethic and are hard workers stand a much better chance at succeeding than those who aren't. There is no reason not to work much harder than your peers if you want to succeed.


Yes. They are stupid cliches that don't reflect reality. "Work hard." Yeah, no shit. If you need a picture of Vince Lombardi to get through your day, you've already lost.

There are plenty of scientific studies that illustrate economic, social, and academic upward mobility are harder than ever and it goes well beyond being lazy.

There's a reason why so many of these quotes are cliche and common now. It is one of the common denominators of people who made their own success. People can chose to try to learn from them and instill good habits or choose to ignore them and not take them seriously.

Not everyone already knows to "work hard". Some people think they are working hard but are just in that group of 20 who are maybe approaching bare minimum to be considered. Some people really do need a fire lit from under them.

I don't think any of us are completely ignoring things like economic and social mobility that you keep bringing up. Nor do we think other factors like timing, luck, etc. don't exist. A lot of us just recognize that it isn't worth the time to focus on that. The problem is that stuff is irrelevant and impractical on the micro level. These studies wont help you in a job interview or get you a spot on the team. I'm only concerned about how to be the best person I can be with what I can control. Focusing on things like the "system", genetics, timing, luck, are all out of my control and a waste of time that pushes me further away from my goals. Same with complaining. It's really music to my ears when people complain because I know if I ever have to compete against these people they are already sabotaging themselves with their negative attitude and that just gives me the advantage.

[Lebowsky]

I do agree with the premise of the OP to an extent, but to disregard the fact that inequality in the distribution of wealth and resources is a key factor in future success is naive at best. If you take people with the same level of work ethic, those with more resources and easier access to information are, on average, way more likely to be sucessful. Hard word is important for success, but so are your socioeconomic background, talent and even luck.

[Akrazotile]

I do agree with the premise of the OP to an extent, but to disregard the fact that inequality in the distribution of wealth and resources is a key factor in future success is naive at best. If you take people with the same level of work ethic, those with more resources and easier access to information are, on average, way more likely to be sucessful. Hard word is important for success, but so are your socioeconomic background, talent and even luck.


A lot of immigrants came here with nothing and they or their kids ended up very successful. You dont need a lot of money to do homework assignments, read books, pursue things etc. The problem is culture. Success and knowledge is not emphasized in the broken homes LITTERED across America.

A lot of people are to pusssy to admit this, but the country is FILLED with dumb, lazy poor people. Neck tattoos, alcoholics, in and out of jail, kids they dont support, or simply obese, complacent, going through the motions. People like Deuce who live in campus bubbles or these liberals in their moms basement or some chic hipster part of town, always talk about 'the poor' but dont really know who they are.

Ive been all over the country. Ive stayed in poor ass areas. Poor people are culturally a mess. If they watched over their kids and kept them out of trouble and made sure they did their homework and watched good programming and got to bed on time etc, it wouldnt matter if they lived in a trailer and wore second hand clothes. The problem is these people largely are simply lacking the cultural attitudes the middle class and beyond takes for granted. Thats just how some segment of the population operates. Its not that their kids cant get an education bc no money. Its that they dont impress that upon their kids. They fight and smoke and curse and steal etc in front of their kids and their kids just grow up to be the same people.

For liberals, poor people are in the same "do not criticize" safe space as anyone who happens to be black, mexican, muslim, gay, etc, but the reality is the cycle of poverty in America is about attitude. We got clean water, we got public schooling, we're relatively safe and not in civil war etc.. By comparison we have a ton of advantages. You dont need two beamers in the driveway to get a scholarship, an internship, or to just apprentice a trade, go to work and stay out of trouble.

[DeuceWallaces]

You would think that would be assumed but maybe we aren't at that point yet after reading some of the replies in this thread.

I know when I say hard work, I mean it to be everything that you can do to give yourself the best chance to succeed. For some, they may have a narrow perspective of just working until you are tired, or studying a lot, or getting good grades; but that would be very limiting view of what hard work is. Hard work to me is really the whole gamut: from improving your mannerisms, habits, resourcefulness, networking, knowledge, etc. Those who have a great work ethic and determination will never want to cease and stop improving on such things and they will be way better off because of it.

At the end of the day, it still needs to be seen from the perspective of competition because that's what it is. If you're dream job is hiring and there are 40 applicants, it will go something like this (for simplicity):

20 are "hard" workers and prepared for the interview, and 20 are not.
Of those 20 hard workers, maybe 8 are extremely hard working or have standout talent, knowledge, or personality for the job.
Of those 8, maybe 2 or 3 is the complete package.
But in the end, still only one will get hired.

People don't realize that doing the bare minimum of what you may consider to be hard work may very well not be enough, in most cases you don't even stand a chance. Hard work is relative, and the employer doesn't care what you think you deserve for your work. Peoples' value based judgments of themselves may be way out of line of what the market actually values them at. That's the reality of it and it's a message a lot of people need to hear these days. This is a sports message board and we praise our athletes for their hard work and determination, yet it surprises me that we treat it anywhere else like it is a myth. It is not. Competition is everywhere in life and not just in sports. All else being equal, those who have great work ethic and are hard workers stand a much better chance at succeeding than those who aren't. There is no reason not to work much harder than your peers if you want to succeed.



There's a reason why so many of these quotes are cliche and common now. It is one of the common denominators of people who made their own success. People can chose to try to learn from them and instill good habits or choose to ignore them and not take them seriously.

Not everyone already knows to "work hard". Some people think they are working hard but are just in that group of 20 who are maybe approaching bare minimum to be considered. Some people really do need a fire lit from under them.

I don't think any of us are completely ignoring things like economic and social mobility that you keep bringing up. Nor do we think other factors like timing, luck, etc. don't exist. A lot of us just recognize that it isn't worth the time to focus on that. The problem is that stuff is irrelevant and impractical on the micro level. These studies wont help you in a job interview or get you a spot on the team. I'm only concerned about how to be the best person I can be with what I can control. Focusing on things like the "system", genetics, timing, luck, are all out of my control and a waste of time that pushes me further away from my goals. Same with complaining. It's really music to my ears when people complain because I know if I ever have to compete against these people they are already sabotaging themselves with their negative attitude and that just gives me the advantage.

You can ignore reality all you want but it will still exist.

[keep-itreal]

Most kids try a little bit and then quit when things get too hard. Then when they grow up they play the victim and blame every outside force under the sun for their own failure, rather than taking responsibility for either not being very good, or not working hard enough.

ahahahahhaha

that's me. :roll: :roll: :roll:

































http://screenrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/shutter-island-dicaprio-crying3-300x300.jpg

[UK2K]

Great lesson to be thought sure, very inspirational but its simply not true. Sure you have to be determined to reach certain goals but there are also a million other factors coming into play. You are looking at this from a very simple angle, comparing fvcking free throw percentages to prove some stupid point. Chris Webber was getting paid millions of dollars and had all the time in the world with the best coaches to practice his free throw shooting. Unbreakable spirit and iron will as a way to success or whatever other pseudo heroic bs you people believe in doesn't apply to the real world. Hard work does create opportunity and success but you got to have an opportunity to work hard. Some ghetto kids probably can't even afford a ball to practice and you are here talking about hard work. The gap between rich and poor is widening every year , ghetto schools can't even afford fvcking textbooks because of your countries retarded school financing system, it is not about excuses its about a reality that is crushing the dreams of lower class kids before they can even work on achieving them. Also congrats to your middle management job you ignorant fvck you are a true inspiration for every middle class white guy out there

I guess you missed the rest of the discussion.

You made the huge jump from having a positive attitude, intestinal fortitude, and a strong will to talking about how schools get their funding. It is about excuses, because if you make excuses for someone all their life, they'll ALWAYS make excuses. If you tell them they can't at a young age, of course you are going to think you cant. I'm talking about achieving and overcoming obstacles and here you are talking about kids... American kids who are the wealthiest poor people on the planet... and you say they don't have textbooks so their lives are over. **** man, was everything handed to you in life? Did you never have to do anything uncomfortable? I guess not.

And thanks. It's crazy I can go from a homeless drug addict to middle management in less than three years with nothing more than a high school degree. Imagine my surprise when I hear people like you talk about 'its too hard'.

About three years ago I was living in a Geo Tracker, and now I'm about to buy a second and third rental property. I'm pretty proud of that fact. Maybe I was just lucky over and over and over again?

[UK2K]

I do agree with the premise of the OP to an extent, but to disregard the fact that inequality in the distribution of wealth and resources is a key factor in future success is naive at best. If you take people with the same level of work ethic, those with more resources and easier access to information are, on average, way more likely to be sucessful. Hard word is important for success, but so are your socioeconomic background, talent and even luck.
The premise is, if you give 100% effort in everything you do, no matter what, you will be a success.

There are plenty of horror stories turned success stories. Ben Carson is a great example. He's the exception, but why? Why is he the exception? Because not everyone is willing to work like he did. I'm fact, very few people are.

Let's look at it this way... if you took a kid, take a kid from the ghetto if you want, but say you take this kid at 3 years old. Now, knowing nothing else about this kid, do you think he could become a doctor? Why or why not?

I absolutely believe he can. I believe any kid born in the US today can be anything they want to be 25 years from now. Anything. And I truly believe it. If you put in the work, you can do it.

Like I said, not many people would work overnights and do school during the day at the same time. 16, maybe 18 hour days... who would want to do that? Nobody. Who would do it at all? Very few. But I did because I had to. If everybody in this country chasing a dream said 'I did because I had to', we'd be raising a generation of dreamers instead of a generation of lazy pieces of shit who are never at fault for anything.

[falc39]

You can ignore reality all you want but it will still exist.

You have a reading comprehension issue. You missed my whole point and I really don't care. No one has to take any of my advice. I'm not the one complaining about the system and how unfair life is. If people want to waste their time blaming the system and other external factors not in their control, then have at it :)