If Jordan never existed, who would win the 90s?

[Derivative]

1991: Lakers
1992: Trailblazers
1993: Suns
1996: Magic
1997: Jazz
1998: Jazz

Prove me wrong.

[G0ATbe]

Pippens Bulls. He made the ECF without Jordan, Jordan couldnt even get out of the first round without Pip. Nuff said.

[Nilocon165]

Pippens Bulls. He made the ECF without Jordan, Jordan couldnt even get out of the first round without Pip. Nuff said.
Nobody thinks that kobe is better than jordan

[LAZERUSS]

I like this idea better...

remove MJ from the Bulls in the 90's...AND also the best player from every other team (guys like Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Karl, etc.)...

and who wins the rings?

I say Chicago gets at least a few.

[DonDraper]

1991: Bulls
1992: Bulls
1993: Bulls
1996: Bulls
1997: Bulls
1998: Bulls

[scuzzy]

His father

[jstern]

I like this idea better...

remove MJ from the Bulls in the 90's...AND also the best player from every other team (guys like Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Karl, etc.)...

and who wins the rings?

I say Chicago gets at least a few.

The problem with that is that the Center position was a pretty big position back then. You're taking that big time defensive presence protecting the middle, that Jordan was best equipped to go up against as a guard.

Jordan's the GOAT, but you're really handicapping the Rockets, Knicks, etc.

It also completely changes the question of the OP, who really just wants to know who the best team in the league was besides the Bulls.

[lucky001]

A lot of changes.

91 Lakers
92 blazers
93 suns
94 rockets

Drexler doesn't leave the Blazers after winning a ring with them.

95 magic
96 magic

Does shaq still leave the magic so soon after winning back to back?
Does penny still get his knee wrecked even if he's just the 2nd fiddle?
97 ?
98 ?

[ClipperRevival]

The thing about 1991 was that the Lakers were supposed to be done and not make the finals. They had a huge upset win over the favored Blazers. Maybe Magic's best season ever in terms of maximizing the talent on the team and doing whatever it took to win. I think if the 1991 Blazers and 1991 Lakers play 10 times, the Blazers win 7/8 of them.

Sonics/Magic in 1996 would've been a great one. The mid 90's Magic team was extremely talented and deep.

1991 - Blazers or Lakers
1992 - Blazers or Knicks
1993 - Suns
1996 - Sonics/Magic
1997 - Jazz
1998 - Jazz

MJ pretty much prevented other greats from achieving legendary status.

[livinglegend]

Bulls.

[imdaman99]

Knicks vs Suns in 93 would have been great.

[sportjames23]

Pippens Bulls. He made the ECF without Jordan, Jordan couldnt even get out of the first round without Pip. Nuff said.


No he didn't, dumbass.

[Showtime80']

Jordan didn't prevent ANYBODY from reaching legendary status !!! In those immortal words "They are who we thought they were"

To me the greatest generation of players were the 80's guys, no question about it but as with everything there are tiers and the 80's guys Jordan battled after 1991 were the SECOND TIER of 80's stars.

They proved it in 1994 and 95 when Jordan was gone. Major choke jobs in those two years by guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone and Ewing proved they were really not at the same level as Magic, Dr J, Bird and Isiah.

What Jordan really prevented was the 90's turning into the 70's with a bunch of one year wonder hum teams winning the title and guys that really DIDN'T DESERVE to be champions

[Labissiere]

His father
:lol

[Im Still Ballin]

No he didn't, dumbass.
Playing the ol' Portland trick on you James!

[Achilleas]

His father

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/qrkx5messu0hweahnzr6.png

[Spurs5Rings2014]

His father

Savage af.

:oldlol:

[choppermagic]

The Karl Malone era?

It would have been a mix of other teams. Actually, it would have been fun. Rockets, Knicks, Jazz, etc. all would have good shots at the ring.

[Thorpesaurous]

The thing about 1991 was that the Lakers were supposed to be done and not make the finals. They had a huge upset win over the favored Blazers. Maybe Magic's best season ever in terms of maximizing the talent on the team and doing whatever it took to win. I think if the 1991 Blazers and 1991 Lakers play 10 times, the Blazers win 7/8 of them.

Sonics/Magic in 1996 would've been a great one. The mid 90's Magic team was extremely talented and deep.

1991 - Blazers or Lakers
1992 - Blazers or Knicks
1993 - Suns
1996 - Sonics/Magic
1997 - Jazz
1998 - Jazz

MJ pretty much prevented other greats from achieving legendary status.


I was gonna say, that Knicks team probably would've gotten one in there somewhere. But that Magic team was really good, and I would guess they'd get one in there too, and it could change the course of the league, because had they gotten one, I wonder if Shaq would've left.

Even at their best I was never fond of that Jazz team. Malone created a weird defensive dynamic, especially since they gave up some athleticism on the perimeter with Hornacek. And the offense was gorgeous, but often felt stiff in the toughest moments. Frankly Stockton was the most creative guy of the bunch, but he also orchestrated the system, so it was always awkward when the asked him to do something at the end of games, which he seemed to do more often than Malone did.

I'd bet the Mourning, Mashburn, Hardaway, Heat team would get one in there. But I don't remember which years had the injury issues.

[Legends66NBA7]

91 - Lakers
92 - Trail Blazers
93 - Suns
96 - Magic
97 - Jazz
98 - Pacers

[ClipperRevival]

I was gonna say, that Knicks team probably would've gotten one in there somewhere. But that Magic team was really good, and I would guess they'd get one in there too, and it could change the course of the league, because had they gotten one, I wonder if Shaq would've left.

Even at their best I was never fond of that Jazz team. Malone created a weird defensive dynamic, especially since they gave up some athleticism on the perimeter with Hornacek. And the offense was gorgeous, but often felt stiff in the toughest moments. Frankly Stockton was the most creative guy of the bunch, but he also orchestrated the system, so it was always awkward when the asked him to do something at the end of games, which he seemed to do more often than Malone did.

I'd bet the Mourning, Mashburn, Hardaway, Heat team would get one in there. But I don't remember which years had the injury issues.

The Jazz weren't pretty but they gave MJ's Bulls the stiffest challenges in the finals in 1997 and 1998. MJ was incredibly clutch in 1997 and without his clutch play, they might not win it that year. And who can forget 1998, in game 6, when MJ single handedly prevented the series from going to game 7 in the last minute, which would've been at Utah. They were the Spurs before the Spurs in terms of not beating themselves and being very disciplined. The Jazz also toyed with the ultra talented but young Lakers team which featured Shaq, Kobe, Jones, Van Exel, etc.

[ClipperRevival]

The Karl Malone era?

It would have been a mix of other teams. Actually, it would have been fun. Rockets, Knicks, Jazz, etc. all would have good shots at the ring.

It was the greatest era for superstars (late 80's to early 90's) and it would've been looked upon as such but MJ just didn't let it get to that. Guys like Barkley, Drexler, Ewing, Malone, Kemp, etc all would probably have a ring or two. But since MJ didn't let it get to that, some mistakenly think he had no challenges. He just stomped all challengers.

[DonDraper]

His father

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fallen Angel]

1991 -> Los Angeles Lakers (Magic Johnson MVP)
1992 -> New York Knicks (Patrick Ewing MVP)
1993 -> Phoenix Suns (Charles Barkley MVP)
1994 -> Houston Rockets (Hakeem Olajuwon MVP)
1995 -> Houston Rockets (Hakeem Olajuwon MVP)
1996 -> Orlando Magic (Shaquille O'Neal MVP)
1997 -> Orlando Magic (Shaquille O'Neal MVP; doesn't leave for LA)
1998 -> Utah Jazz (Karl Malone MVP; Penny gets hurt this year)

[Stringer Bell]

1991: Lakers over Pistons: Magic wins the rubber(less) match against Isiah, going 2-1 against him in the Finals. Maybe this time neither player would get injured.

1992: Blazers over Cavs. Cavs were very good that year, and had handled the Knicks all year. Sometimes those types of results change in the postseason, but I'll still go with Cleveland due to the HCA and previous success that year against NY. But the Blazers were better.+

1993: Suns vs. Knicks, I call this one a 50/50. Maybe we get another brawl.

1994: Rockets over Knicks. No change. Ewing puts up one of the worst offensive performances ever by a great player in an NBA Finals, and John Starks gets all the blame.

1995: Good point earlier that if Drexler wins a title in 1992, he most likely doesn't get traded to Houston. How far does Houston get without Drexler? It seemed at the time risky as Otis Thorpe had been such a good solid player, and helped out with the interior defense. Even while adding a player of Drexler's caliber, some thought it would be too much for Hakeem to handle all the interior defense by himself. Although Robert Horry turned out to be valuable in defending 4s. Trading for Drexler turned out to be the right move, and Houston still got past the first 2 rounds by the skin of their teeth. Maybe the Suns get out of the West again, or maybe the Spurs beat them. I think the young Magic would beat either of them.

1996: Magic vs. Sonics: Sonics were an excellent team so this would be interesting. Presumably, if the Magic win the finals in 1995, they would have extra confidence. Then again, maybe they'd lose some hunger and Dennis Scott would be in the dumps, rejecting kids autographs requests and telling them to ask him about the rage that exists inside him. Also, how would Horace Grant's health be? He killed the Bulls in the 95' ECSF. He was hurt in the 96' ECF against Chicago. Orlando would have lost anyway, but I think they would have fared a little better.

1997: Jazz vs. Heat? Or maybe the Magic again? A lot depends on if Shaq stays after the 95-96 season. After winning a title, it's a lot easier to want to stay with the team. Jazz would beat the Heat I think. Thankfully MJ & the Bulls took away Karl Malone's championship dreams. Malone is quite possibly the biggest dirtbag of any great NBA player, except maybe for Calvin Murphy (I haven't read too much in detail about what happened with those accusations). I'm used to watching boxing where I like a lot of fighters who have done terrible things, but Malone is such a POS and pathetic excuse for a decent human being that I always enjoy watching old postseason games of the Jazz being eliminated.

1998: Jazz vs. Pacers? Another interesting matchup. If Shaq stayed with Orlando, I'm still assuming Penny suffers the unfortunate injury which derailed a HOF career.

[JohnnySic]

1991 - Pistons
1992 - Knicks
1993 - Knicks
1996 - Sonics
1997 - Jazz
1998 - Pacers

[Stringer Bell]

I was gonna say, that Knicks team probably would've gotten one in there somewhere. But that Magic team was really good, and I would guess they'd get one in there too, and it could change the course of the league, because had they gotten one, I wonder if Shaq would've left.

Even at their best I was never fond of that Jazz team. Malone created a weird defensive dynamic, especially since they gave up some athleticism on the perimeter with Hornacek. And the offense was gorgeous, but often felt stiff in the toughest moments. Frankly Stockton was the most creative guy of the bunch, but he also orchestrated the system, so it was always awkward when the asked him to do something at the end of games, which he seemed to do more often than Malone did.

I'd bet the Mourning, Mashburn, Hardaway, Heat team would get one in there. But I don't remember which years had the injury issues.


The Knicks' best chance was 93'. Ewing and the Knicks often get talked about as a team that would've won these titles if not for Jordan and the Bulls, but really, most of the time when the Bulls defeated them, they weren't championship caliber except for 93'. The Knicks weren't beating the Pistons in 89', they were mediocre in 91', unlikely to beat the Cavs and then the Blazers in 92', and the Magic and then Sonics in 96'.

As stated earlier, I think the Suns/Knicks in 93' would be a 50/50 matchup.

I liked watching the Jazz offense too with their passing. Stockton of course was a brilliant passer, Malone had become a very good passer by then and would find Stockton and Hornacek frequently on cuts to the basketball. He'd make nice passes over his body from weird angles that would hit Stock/Horn in stride.

But that stiffness in the clutch moments was indeed a criticism the Jazz had. People felt they relied too much on the pick-and-roll and lacked creativity. But I'm not sure if that is necessarily true, or just the fact that they were playing MJ, Pippen, and the Bulls. Jordan was the only guy on either team that could consistently create his own shot. Malone could somewhat do it in the post, but not nearly as well as Jordan.

Despite the low scoring and somewhat ugly nature of those finals, I enjoyed them a lot. You knew the teams would rally back when they were down and it would almost always go down to the wire. Even after Chicago won 96-54 in game 3 in 1998 to take a 2-1 lead and people were saying it was over, I figured the Jazz would win at least one more in Chicago and take it back to Utah for game 6.

[k0kakw0rld]

Charles Barkley :pimp:

[Nikola_]

Bunch of "losers" become "winners"

[bizil]

I think the 90's could have been like the 70's. By that I mean no EPIC DYNASTIES. The Knicks of the 70's won two rings, but I don't consider that a dynasty. I think u gotta win at least three rings in a 5 year span to even qualify. The Minny Lakers, 60's Celtics, 80's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 90's Bulls, 2000s Lakers, and 2000s Spurs all did that. I don't see ANY TEAMS in the 90's besides the Bulls that could have done it.

[Reggie43]

Pacers had their best team ever imo in 98 and gave the bulls a tougher challenge than the jazz did so I have them winning in 1998.

[Thorpesaurous]

The Knicks' best chance was 93'. Ewing and the Knicks often get talked about as a team that would've won these titles if not for Jordan and the Bulls, but really, most of the time when the Bulls defeated them, they weren't championship caliber except for 93'. The Knicks weren't beating the Pistons in 89', they were mediocre in 91', unlikely to beat the Cavs and then the Blazers in 92', and the Magic and then Sonics in 96'.

As stated earlier, I think the Suns/Knicks in 93' would be a 50/50 matchup.

I liked watching the Jazz offense too with their passing. Stockton of course was a brilliant passer, Malone had become a very good passer by then and would find Stockton and Hornacek frequently on cuts to the basketball. He'd make nice passes over his body from weird angles that would hit Stock/Horn in stride.

But that stiffness in the clutch moments was indeed a criticism the Jazz had. People felt they relied too much on the pick-and-roll and lacked creativity. But I'm not sure if that is necessarily true, or just the fact that they were playing MJ, Pippen, and the Bulls. Jordan was the only guy on either team that could consistently create his own shot. Malone could somewhat do it in the post, but not nearly as well as Jordan.

Despite the low scoring and somewhat ugly nature of those finals, I enjoyed them a lot. You knew the teams would rally back when they were down and it would almost always go down to the wire. Even after Chicago won 96-54 in game 3 in 1998 to take a 2-1 lead and people were saying it was over, I figured the Jazz would win at least one more in Chicago and take it back to Utah for game 6.


You're probably right about the Knicks. My sense of the Jazz stiffness stems from the fact that when they really needed something, the ball would go into Stockton's hands, which is great, but he wasn't a guy who necessarily got his own shot. He could, but it wasn't his thing, and when they'd call a timeout and set something up and other teams would fall off onto other guys, it was weird to see him taking step back jumpers or walk up threes, when they have an all time scorer on the team.


I forgot about the pacers. That was a really nicely built deep team that had all types of pieces. They were a little underwhelming in the creativity department too though.

[Duderonomy]

My best guesses. I would donate one of my kidneys to see the Jazz-Pacers finals.

1991 - Lakers - pistons 6 games
1992 - Blazers-Knicks 6 games
1993- suns-Knicks 7 games
1996- Sonics- magic 7 games
1997- Jazz- heat 4 games
1998 - Jazz-Pacers 7 games

[tmacattack33]

I like this idea better...

remove MJ from the Bulls in the 90's...AND also the best player from every other team (guys like Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Karl, etc.)...

and who wins the rings?

I say Chicago gets at least a few.

Bulls and Sonics would be the best if you do that.

Sonics would still have Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, and Perkins.

[3ball]

Chicago wins several rings in the 90's if we removed the best player from every team.


^^^^ It's amazing how dumb this statement is... In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54.

So going into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a LOTTERY team - but you think they go from lottery to championships without Jordan??... That's ridiculous.

Obviously, they wouldn't be shit in the 90's without Jordan - nobody would have heard of them.. It's quite likely they would've been lottery the entire 90's without Jordan, just like they were in 1989 without Jordan.

[Fallen Angel]

If people think the Magic would win in 1996 then why wouldn't Shaq stay in Orlando? Are you dummies just overlooking that huge factor on the Eastern Conference?

[Duderonomy]

If people think the Magic would win in 1996 then why wouldn't Shaq stay in Orlando? Are you dummies just overlooking that huge factor on the Eastern Conference?
That's a good point. That Sonics series isn't a lock it could go either way. But if Shaq stayed in 97 they definitely would beat the heat. I don't think the OP was asking for a chain reaction but rather who was the best teams outside of the Bulls in the 90's.

[HenryGarfunkle]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rZe780G1oWI/hqdefault.jpg

[3ball]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rZe780G1oWI/hqdefault.jpg



Solid post.. A little cheesy and obvious, but still solid.

Maybe Jordan's dad wins, but not Jordan's Bulls.. In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54.

So going into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a LOTTERY team - obviously, they cannot go from lottery to championships without Jordan.

They wouldn't be shit in the 90's without Jordan - nobody would have heard of them.. It's quite likely they would've been lottery the entire 90's without Jordan, just like they were in 1989 without Jordan.

[CAstill]

Bulls and Sonics would be the best if you do that.

Sonics would still have Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, and Perkins.


Don't be an idiot, Kemp was their best player. They would of still had Payton is what would happen.

[CAstill]

Sonics beat the Magic in 96 and repeat in 97, possibly even 98 if they pay Kemp.