Michael Jordan's "Shrug game" exposed

[CuterThanRubio]

Due to the recent era debates on the board, I've gained interest in analyzing old clips to compare and contrast defensive execution, since it has been implied by the majority that oldschool strategies were much tougher to score against.

I have concluded that the three point shot was rarely guarded, even in situations where a player got hot and had been knocking them down at a high rate, they still managed to find themselves free from distance more often than not.

I know it wasn't a priority back then, but to claim that modern teams wouldn't be able to compete against older teams is an utter falsification, especially when considering the improved ability to shoot, and the way the three was defended in the past.

I randomly chose to examine one of the most famous three point shooting outbursts, the shrug game, to see if my theory would continue to hold up, and here is what I discovered.

These images are in sequential order, ALL six of his first half threes.

Enjoy.

(Click the pics to make them larger)

(Mods: I'm reposting these pics from a different thread since I figured they would provide insight and didn't want them to waste away, I'm not spamming)

1.

http://s7.postimg.org/6bam9ye1j/open.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/6bam9ye1j/)

2.

http://s29.postimg.org/nyye22gab/JOKE.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/nyye22gab/)

3.

http://s11.postimg.org/7iycc3r8f/wtf.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7iycc3r8f/)

4.

http://s18.postimg.org/chyt3z8ad/why.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/chyt3z8ad/)


5.

http://s30.postimg.org/htwopg3rx/hello.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/htwopg3rx/)

6.

http://s10.postimg.org/jjn9v87ol/illustrate.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/jjn9v87ol/)


EDIT: I'm adding a few additional images that were posted in this thread. A certain member challenged me to provide evidence to support the claim that even renowned shooters like Larry Bird were facing relaxed defense, and I promptly discovered more proof.

(Bonus Reggie Miller exposure included!)

http://s10.postimg.org/ouohlselh/seriously.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ouohlselh/)


http://s13.postimg.org/w6txxnbkj/another.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/w6txxnbkj/)


http://s29.postimg.org/7mh1dvvg3/more.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7mh1dvvg3/)


http://s30.postimg.org/xvvl8dogt/reggie.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/xvvl8dogt/)

[Wade's Rings]

Screenshots :oldlol:

[CuterThanRubio]

Screenshots :oldlol:

Gifs chew up too much bandwidth and the point remains the same.

Every shot was uncontested, Drexler and Ainge didn't even attempt to jump!

[ballinhun8]

Shrug game exposed???


It's one of the most historic Finals games ever bro.




And not to mention, you can't even see the 3pt line in four of the six pictures.

[CuterThanRubio]

Shrug game exposed???


It's one of the most historic Finals games ever bro.




And not to mention, you can't even see the 3pt line in four of the six pictures.

Don't play dumb, "bro"

We know he is behind the line, don't blame me for terrible early 90s camera angles.

You can still see the distance between him and the defense, and that is what I am conveying with this thread.

Not a single shot was directly challenged, the last two shots were jumped for, but the defenders were so far away and late it was after he was already releasing the ball.

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's dispel with this fiction that OP knows what he's doing, he has no idea what he's doing. That's why he's done the things he's done

[IllegalD]

OP is a f*ggot confirmed

[ClipperRevival]

Let's dispel with this fiction that OP knows what he's doing, he has no idea what he's doing. That's why he's done the things he's done

Yeah, he just doesn't know any better. Digging his own grave.

[CuterThanRubio]

:coleman:

So you guys are going to ignore VISUAL PROOF and try dissing me instead?

This is a legitimate discussion point, I just decided to use MJ as an example, don't cry, I know it's hard not to get angry when you see things like this!

[riseagainst]

Exposed of what?


????????

:confusedshrug:

[AintNoSunshine]

:coleman:

So you guys are going to ignore VISUAL PROOF and try dissing me instead?

This is a legitimate discussion point, I just decided to use MJ as an example, don't cry, I know it's hard not to get angry when you see things like this!
Welcome to ISH!:oldlol:

GTFO if what you want is logical and mature discussion.

[IllegalD]

Nothing to see here.

Just another LeBron Stanley f*ggot melting down because his boy is gonna be stuck on 2 rings 44444 life and will only keep adding losses to his pitiful finals record.

:lebroncry:

[Sarcastic]

They were daring him to shoot. That's what the shrug was for. He was saying "well if they're gonna leave me open...(shrug)". Jordan wasn't known for his shot back then.

[CuterThanRubio]

Nothing to see here.

Just another LeBron Stanley f*ggot melting down because his boy is gonna be stuck on 2 rings 44444 life and will only keep adding losses to his pitiful finals record.

:lebroncry:

Lmao, you wish.

I'm not a Bran stan

Aren't you 35 or something?

I've seen you getting relentlessly trolled by that Simon kid, I suggest you fall back from attacking people, I'm not the one!


And yes of course they were leaving him open to a degree, because outside shots weren't expected back in those days, but you would think the pressure would increase after he made a few in a row.

My argument is that defensive tactics in that era are not on par with today's league.

I'm not trying to say MJ isn't the best, but this is one of the greatest illustrations of how primitive the league used to be.

[Sarcastic]

No. He was known as a bad 3 pt shooter, so they left him open on purpose. He tore them a new one for leaving him open like that.

[CuterThanRubio]

No. He was known as a bad 3 pt shooter, so they left him open on purpose. He tore them a new one for leaving him open like that.

http://dearkidlovemom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/but-wait-theres-more.jpg

Here is the thing you are failing to understand, even shooters like Larry Bird were left open outside the arc and I can provide screenshots to prove it.

The three point line was mostly ignored by defenders for the duration of the 80s and 90s.

I recommend searching youtube for highlights of your favorite player from that era, and pay attention to how he is guarded beyond the arc. I bet it will change your perspective.

[chips93]

My argument is that defensive tactics in that era are not on par with today's league.

I'm not trying to say MJ isn't the best, but this is one of the greatest illustrations of how primitive the league used to be.

You really think that defenses were so basic that they didn't think to close out on a hot shooter? That they just hasn't thought to contest jumpers? That's asinine.

It's just that peak Jordan was such a good slasher and mid range scorer that your only defensive option was to give him the open three.

And when you talk about adjusting to a hot shooter, Jordan had spent eight years proving what a great scorer he was inside the arc, you don't just let him get to his spots in the mid range, just because he hit some threes. You just hope he cools off from three, it was the only way you were going to contain him.

Defenses have gotten more sophisticated, but this is a terrible example.

And just fwiw, lebron gets the same level of contest on his three pointers today.

[jstern]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw

[stalkerforlife]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw

Dude was left wide open on a lot of those threes.

Damn.

WIDE OPEN.

[NZStreetBaller]

I agree with OP 100 percent. This crap about 90s defense being tougher is total BS because the primary offensive strategy was to get to the basket they would huddle in towards the basket to defend it.

These days offense utilizes the 3 ball effectively which forced the spacing of today offense. And yes lebron takes advantage of it. Why wouldnt he??

MJ wud still dominate todays game because of the more open paint in todays defense.

But steph curry would also own the 90s due to lack of perimeter coverage. Can u imagine what steph would do being left open 9 out of 10 plays. It wud seriously rain!!

[LakersForlife]

MJ STANS exposed gj

[LakersForlife]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw
this is the defense those old Daks are talking about??? lmao. sit down son

[jstern]

I agree with OP 100 percent. This crap about 90s defense being tougher is total BS because the primary offensive strategy was to get to the basket they would huddle in towards the basket to defend it.

These days offense utilizes the 3 ball effectively which forced the spacing of today offense. And yes lebron takes advantage of it. Why wouldnt he??

MJ wud still dominate todays game because of the more open paint in todays defense.

But steph curry would also own the 90s due to lack of perimeter coverage. Can u imagine what steph would do being left open 9 out of 10 plays. It wud seriously rain!!
Do you think they would guard Curry the same way as Jordan in the 90s? In the video you have to give Jordan some space else he would blow by you. If you step back, like I've seen Kobe do so many times he's going to shoot it. But only in this video because he's trying to prove a point is he looking for his 3. I don't remember the game, but would the Blazers not adjust, or were they coached by a bunch of idiots? Do you think teams guarded every other team the same way, and never adjusted? Curry would not be as successful if he was hand checked.

[IllegalD]

Kind of reminds me of LeBron's overrated Game 7 vs the Spurs where they left him WIDE OPEN for all those 3s.

Thanks OP for exposing both Jordan and LeBron's performances as massively overrated. :applause:

[DonDraper]

Kind of reminds me of LeBron's overrated Game 7 vs the Spurs where they left him WIDE OPEN for all those 3s.

Thanks OP for exposing both Jordan and LeBron's performances as massively overrated. :applause:

12th

[CuterThanRubio]

Do you think they would guard Curry the same way as Jordan in the 90s? In the video you have to give Jordan some space else he would blow by you. If you step back, like I've seen Kobe do so many times he's going to shoot it. But only in this video because he's trying to prove a point is he looking for his 3. I don't remember the game, but would the Blazers not adjust, or were they coached by a bunch of idiots? Do you think teams guarded every other team the same way, and never adjusted? Curry would not be as successful if he was hand checked.

Again, even LARRY BIRD was left alone outside the arc most of the time, and he was regarded as the best shooter of all time until later down the line.

Curry also possesses the ability to finish in the paint at a high percentage and his handle is masterful, you can't just assume he is going to launch a triple every time, he will watch your feet and blow by you once you plant if you check up too hard.

Curry would devastate weak defenses like the Blazers displayed in the screenshots I presented, if a poor outside shooter like Jordan could have a field day imagine what the greatest at his craft would do.

Sidenote: A guy like Danny Ainge wouldn't even make the league in 2016, let alone have the responsibility to cover the best player on the floor lol

[LakersForlife]

thats shrug??? ricky rubio would be a superstar in that era then

[Sarcastic]

http://dearkidlovemom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/but-wait-theres-more.jpg

Here is the thing you are failing to understand, even shooters like Larry Bird were left open outside the arc and I can provide screenshots to prove it.

The three point line was mostly ignored by defenders for the duration of the 80s and 90s.

I recommend searching youtube for highlights of your favorite player from that era, and pay attention to how he is guarded beyond the arc. I bet it will change your perspective.


Ok prove it.

[sd3035]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw


wow, defense was terrible back then :lol

Curry would average 50

[CuterThanRubio]

Ok prove it.

It only took 29 seconds into the first video I watched to prove my theory.

http://s10.postimg.org/ouohlselh/seriously.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ouohlselh/)

Larry Bird, in 91, at a time when he was known as one of, if not the greatest outside shooter in NBA history, was left alone at the top of the key.

Hey look, another one!

This was the next shot he made.

http://s13.postimg.org/w6txxnbkj/another.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/w6txxnbkj/)

Are you starting to catch my drift?

I'm not making this stuff up!

Here is Reggie Miller from the same game!

http://s30.postimg.org/xvvl8dogt/reggie.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/xvvl8dogt/)

ZERO DEFENSE!


I'm not even HALFWAY through the video and every shot he's made from downtown was completely open.

http://s29.postimg.org/7mh1dvvg3/more.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7mh1dvvg3/)

Need I say more?

90s defense was terrible!

[SpaceJam]

lol .jpg

Calling 3ball to come ice this dude with them GIFs

[sd3035]

It only took 29 seconds into the first video I watched to prove my theory.

http://s10.postimg.org/ouohlselh/seriously.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ouohlselh/)

Larry Bird, in 91, at a time when he was known as one of, if not the greatest outside shooter in NBA history, was left alone at the top of the key.

Hey look, another one!

This was the next shot he made.

http://s13.postimg.org/w6txxnbkj/another.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/w6txxnbkj/)

Are you starting to catch my drift?

I'm not making this stuff up!

Here is Reggie Miller from the same game!

http://s30.postimg.org/xvvl8dogt/reggie.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/xvvl8dogt/)

ZERO DEFENSE!


I'm not even HALFWAY through the video and every shot he's made from downtown was completely open.

http://s29.postimg.org/7mh1dvvg3/more.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7mh1dvvg3/)

Need I say more?

90s defense was terrible!


Excellent post :applause:

Defense was garbage back then, hence the inflated ppg for the entire league

[oh the horror]

Excellent post :applause:

Defense was garbage back then, hence the inflated ppg for the entire league




Sure kiddo. Whatever you say. If you were around we'd pat you on the head politely and send you away.



Problem with threads like this is, these kids find little clips on YouTube or pictures and immediately form an entire argument based on something with zero context.


this is why we don't take you seriously. Some of us were actually watching ball back in the 90s. Stop.

[NZStreetBaller]

Excellent post :applause:

Defense was garbage back then, hence the inflated ppg for the entire league

Which is why everybody loved it so much lmao. Jordan was the best offensive player and the highest scorer so he dominated the weak defense era.

[diamenz]

the 3 point shot wasn't considered a high quality shot back then unless you were an elite shooter. elite shooters were guarded accordingly. it was a much higher priority to protect the drive & the paint.

op is a simpleton. vote trump - maybe he can help u win again and get better deals.

[Sarcastic]

The modern defense


http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/535539706da8118815c9e13f/james-harden-defense-lakers.gif

[Sarcastic]

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/53553c3069beddaf1b083f75/harden-durant.gif

[Sarcastic]

http://i.imgur.com/AYmrI40.gif

WOW a wide open 3!!!

OMG modern era defense sux

[oh the horror]

Which is why everybody loved it so much lmao. Jordan was the best offensive player and the highest scorer so he dominated the weak defense era.




Yeah that's the reason everyone loved him. :oldlol:


You dudes are embarrassing yourselves.

[sd3035]

I guess scoring was higher in the 80s and early 90s because the defense was way better :lol

some people are truly retarded

[sportjames23]

OP gettin spit-roasted in his own thread. :oldlol:

[DonDraper]

OP gettin spit-roasted in his own thread. :oldlol:

Nah bro :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

I guess scoring was higher in the 80s and early 90s because the defense was way better :lol

some people are truly retarded


So why is it higher now than the 90s? Defense is better?

[CuterThanRubio]

Nobody is roasting me, period.

I made a claim and supported it and will continue to support it and laugh while these guys desperately scramble!

The guy was acting like Larry Bird never saw an open shot in his life, I IMMEDIATELY proved him wrong and he refused to address it. (You got owned and tried so hard to clap back, just accept it)

Run but you can't hide from the truth!

Those gifs aren't helping your case, either.

Harden guided Durant left into the paint where a man was waiting to contest or take a charge, and why is that one cut short? Because he missed that shot.

FAILURE!

Since when is forcing a player to their weak side and directly into a bad shot poor defense? If that was the 90s Harden would have been standing at the elbow waiting while KD hoisted a jumper.

And footage from the Nash Lakers? LOL HELLO, PAGING 2016


This isn't a rare event, it's undeniable and I felt it needed to be brought to the attention of the people~!

[sd3035]

So why is it higher now than the 90s? Defense is better?

Avg ppg was significantly higher than now during the season of the "shrug" game

PPG dropped once the hand check rule was introduced. It forced defenders to actually use footwork and defend their man instead of standing around and lazily reaching

[jstern]

I decided to watch the highlights of a random Bird game to see how they defended his 3s, and wow, what a beautiful style. I probably wouldn't have noticed it when I was like 17, but the IQ, running around creating plays, not over dribbling holding the ball forever. It's basketball at is best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRUlpUkPMLA


Avg ppg was significantly higher than now during the season of the "shrug" game

PPG dropped once the hand check rule was introduced. It forced defenders to actually use footwork and defend their man instead of standing around and lazily reaching

That's why Nash, Kobe, Iverson had career years once the rules were changed around 2005. Iverson averaging 33 ppg at 30 years old. Steve Nash all of a sudden shooting over 50% for the first time ever in his career at age 30, after being a career .465 shooter. At age 30 for the first time, yet almost finishing his career a .500 shooter. That's why 5 of the top 20 ppg in this era are PGs, while 0 were point guards back in 93.

[sd3035]

I decided to watch the highlights of a random Bird game to see how they defended his 3s, and wow, what a beautiful style. I probably wouldn't have noticed it when I was like 17, but the IQ, running around creating plays, not over dribbling holding the ball forever. It's basketball at is best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRUlpUkPMLA



That's why Nash, Kobe, Iverson had career years once the rules were changed around 2005. Iverson averaging 33 ppg at 30 years old. Steve Nash all of a sudden shooting over 50% for the first time ever in his career at age 30, after being a career .465 shooter. At age 30 for the first time, yet almost finishing his career a .500 shooter. That's why 5 of the top 20 ppg in this era are PGs, while 0 were point guards back in 93.

The hand check rule was implemented in 1994 dummy :roll:

[jstern]

The hand check rule was implemented in 1994 dummy :roll:
But I'm talking about today vs before 94, which is what the discussion in this thread is about.

[sd3035]

But I'm talking about today vs before 94, which is what the discussion in this thread is about.

MJ's shrug game was in '92

defense was significantly weaker back then, hence the much higher ppg

[BarberSchool]

:coleman:

So you guys are going to ignore VISUAL PROOF and try dissing me instead?

This is a legitimate discussion point, I just decided to use MJ as an example, don't cry, I know it's hard not to get angry when you see things like this!Nicca your username bodied you with extreme prejudice, before you clicked the damn confirmation link in the email.

You done son.
Now go away or we shall viciously body you a second time.

[BarberSchool]

Let's dispel with this fiction that OP knows what he's doing, he has no idea what he's doing. That's why he's done the things he's done
Preach brother.

[jstern]

MJ's shrug game was in '92

defense was significantly weaker back then, hence the much higher ppg

I don't know. The league is averaging 2.4 more points per game than in 92, and the league this year also has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

[sekachu]

It only took 29 seconds into the first video I watched to prove my theory.

http://s10.postimg.org/ouohlselh/seriously.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ouohlselh/)

Larry Bird, in 91, at a time when he was known as one of, if not the greatest outside shooter in NBA history, was left alone at the top of the key.

Hey look, another one!

This was the next shot he made.






http://s13.postimg.org/w6txxnbkj/another.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/w6txxnbkj/)

Are you starting to catch my drift?

I'm not making this stuff up!

Here is Reggie Miller from the same game!

http://s30.postimg.org/xvvl8dogt/reggie.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/xvvl8dogt/)

ZERO DEFENSE!


I'm not even HALFWAY through the video and every shot he's made from downtown was completely open.

http://s29.postimg.org/7mh1dvvg3/more.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/7mh1dvvg3/)

Need I say more?

90s defense was terrible!





You think this is convincing? I could find ton of wide open 3pts in today's games.

[CuterThanRubio]

Please understand the difference between CREATING space and lackadaisical effort/outright refusal to cover certain areas of the floor.

There is a consistent theme of uninterested defenders allowing open threes in the 80s and 90s, they only seemed concerned about that part of the game once they started going in.

Defenses today look to prevent those openings from happening in the first place, back then they would only search for a response to the problems after they arose, and once a guy like Bird or Jordan got it going there was no stopping them.

[sd3035]

I don't know. The league is averaging 2.4 more points per game than in 92, and the league this year also has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

only in your world is 102.6 > 105.3 :oldlol:

[Dro]

Exposed? So they're supposed to run MJ off the 3point line when that's not the strength of his game overall? So he can blow by them for easy dunks and layups? Nice strategy...

Fact is, a guy got hot from long range, something thats not a strong point in his game, Portland did not want to overreact to it. MJ is not Steph Curry, lol...

[jstern]

only in your world is 102.6 > 105.3 :oldlol:
Boy are you stupid.

[riseagainst]

I don't know. The league is averaging 2.4 more points per game than in 92, and the league this year also has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.


Or the overall quality of players just got better today than in the 90s. You can make arguments both ways, depending on your agenda.

[3ball]

I'm about to rip OP a new one

[sd3035]

Boy am I a retard


First quality post you have ever made :cheers:

[3ball]

You think this is convincing? I could find ton of wide open 3pts in today's games.



NBA.com tracks how close defenders are to shooters.

The data shows that over 80% of 3-pointers are taken with the closest defender 4+ feet away (nba.com describes this distance as "open"), and about half of all 3-pointers are taken with the closest defender 6+ feet away ("wide open").

Here's the stats for the best 3-point shooting team (Warriors) and one of the worst (Grizzlies):



.......................................3-point attempts per game with Closest Defender:


............................0-2 feet (very tight)..... 2-4 feet (tight)...... 4-6 feet (open)..... 6+ feet (very open)

Warriors 2016:................0.6 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight)...................... 5.6 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)....................12.6 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).....................12.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- links to data

Grizzlies 2016:................0.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&ShotDistRange=%3E%3D10.0&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).......................2.3 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)......................8.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)......................7.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=-1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open)



The stats show that in today's game, most 3-pointers are open or wide open - this shouldn't be a surprise because with MULTIPLE players standing behind the line on every play, the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. In previous eras, only 1 player would be standing behind the line, so defenses didn't need complicated rotations and a defender could hug his man at the 3-point line easier without needing to come off him.

However, 3-point defense was a secondary concern against MOST 80's and 90's players because few were 3-point shooters and the 3-point-producing, drive-and-kick plays of today's game weren't common back then - POST-UPS were the staple of most offenses back then, so teams had to emphasize defending the paint instead of the 3-point line.

But now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas..

[sportjames23]

I'm about to rip OP a new one


It's gonna be LIT. :cheers:

[aj1987]

[I][SIZE="3"]NBA.com tracks how close defenders are to shooters.

The data shows that over 80% of 3-pointers are taken with the closest defender 4+ feet away (nba.com describes this distance as "open"), and about half of all 3-pointers are taken with the closest defender 6+ feet away ("wide open").

Nope. It doesn't. Post the league average.

[Cali Syndicate]

What is being exposed here? That mj, who was never considered a 3pt shooter, took open looks because that was what the defense was giving him? That's called smart basketball.

[3ball]

Nope. It doesn't. Post the league average.



You're in denial - nba.com provides "closest defender" information for EVERY SINGLE TEAM:


3-pt attempts per game with defender 0-2 feet away (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight)

3-pt attempts per game with defender 2-4 feet away (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=%3E%3D10.0&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)

3-pt attempts per game with defender 4-6 feet away (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=%3E%3D10.0&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)

3-pt attempts per game with defender 6+ feet away (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open)



It will take me 2 seconds to add up the columns and provide cumulative for the entire league.. Doing it right now....

[Dro]

Nicca your username bodied you with extreme prejudice, before you clicked the damn confirmation link in the email.

You done son.
Now go away or we shall viciously body you a second time.
:lol

[3ball]

Post the league average.



3-point attempts per game (league average) with Closest Defender:



0-2 feet (very tight)..... 2-4 feet (tight)...... 4-6 feet (open)..... 6+ feet (very open)

.........0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).......................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)......................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)........................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- links to nba.com data




The descriptions in parenthesis above are the NBA's descriptions - as you can see, most 3-pointers in today's game are "open" or "wide open".. :confusedshrug:


The stats show that in today's game, most 3-pointers are open or wide open - this shouldn't be a surprise because with MULTIPLE players standing behind the line on every play, the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. In previous eras, only 1 player would be standing behind the line, so defenses didn't need complicated rotations and a defender could hug his man at the 3-point line easier without needing to come off him.

However, 3-point defense was a secondary concern against MOST 80's and 90's players because few were 3-point shooters and the 3-point-producing, drive-and-kick plays of today's game weren't common back then - POST-UPS were the staple of most offenses back then, so teams had to emphasize defending the paint instead of the 3-point line.

But now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas..

[Showtime80']

Watch this video and tell me what basically ALL OF THE PLAYS have in common:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFvlRmO1Zs0

I'll tell you, BODIES, BODIES AND MORE BODIES!!! between Jordan and the basket, with hand checking and no flagrant fouls to save him. He had no other legit scorers on his team in the 80's to space the floor for him so he basically had to take 2 to 3 defenders with him to the basket and a lot of plays in the paint.

Steph Curry plays on a team with multiple 3 point shooters and illegal screeners to create space for him while playing in a league with NO HANDCHECK, flagrant fouls and a 3 second defensive rule to clear the patient for any drives to the basket!!! Go watch basically every Curry made layup and it is basically a red carpet waltz to the basket!

Jordan played in the hardest era for perimeter players to attack the basket with a lousy team to boot. Curry plays in the best team in the league in the easiest time for perimeter players to flourish, just look at mental midgets Harden and Westbrick basically penetrating at will.

Put Curry on the 89' Bulls instead of Jordan with the rules of the time and NO OTHER TEAMMATES TO SPACE the floor for him what do you think happens?!? He's still probably going to nail a lot of the 3's he does now but he's going to have to do it with guys like Robertson, Dumars, Moncrief, Pippen, DJ, Cooper, Harper etc... absolutely DRAPED all over him one on one and forget about untouched forays to the basket as teams packed the paint in those days and would probably send his little as! to the floor on numerous occasions. Would love to see Curry go up against the Bad Boy Pistons and get the Jordan treatment and see if he even averages 20 points per game. Teams would adjust rather easily as they did to Dale Ellis and Michael Adams!

Curry is on the perfect team, system and perfect RULES for him to flourish!!

[Da_Realist]

Steph Curry plays on a team with multiple 3 point shooters and illegal screeners to create space for him while playing in a league with NO HANDCHECK, flagrant fouls and a 3 second defensive rule to clear the patient for any drives to the basket!!! Go watch basically every Curry made layup and it is basically a red carpet waltz to the basket!

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this. :applause:

[Showtime80']

And also count how many AND ONES Michael got from those penetrations and his otherworldly ability as a shot maker. So not only is he getting the 3 point play just like Curry does but he is also getting an EXTRA FOUL on the opponent which Steph RARELY gets on his three point bombs! In today's soft era and with the "Harden style" suddenly in vogue Michael would basically get 4 to 5 and ones per game with ease.

That's what gets lost in the 3>2 mindset. The plays in the paint are guaranteed going to get opponent in foul trouble quicker while also allowing players to get the and one as well versus consistently hoisting up 3's just for the hell of it.

[Blue&Orange]

http://dearkidlovemom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/but-wait-theres-more.jpg

Here is the thing you are failing to understand, even shooters like Larry Bird were left open outside the arc and I can provide screenshots to prove it.

The three point line was mostly ignored by defenders for the duration of the 80s and 90s.

I recommend searching youtube for highlights of your favorite player from that era, and pay attention to how he is guarded beyond the arc. I bet it will change your perspective.
There are dumb people and then are dumb people. Who are you arguing with? And what are you arguing?

How da **** such a dumb thread gets 4 pages?


Basically there's not a living soul that ever argued that 80's 90's people were on the perimeter guarding 3's, everybody and their grandmother knows the they were all in the paint.

It really takes a special genius to cherry pick some screenshots with everyone, guess where, in the paint and shout to the world "look here, look what i've found"



The only thing to take from the shrug game is that the guy that people keep saying wouldn't be able to adjust to todays game and shoot 3's, broke a 3pt NBA record the first time he tried to shoot more 3's than 2's

[CuterThanRubio]

I'm about to rip OP a new one

No you aren't, I've been steady clowning you since I joined this place.

Your latest thread was titled

The latest BS on ISH: the 90's didn't defend the 3-pointer

Well guess what, I proved you wrong, they really didn't defend the 3.

Posting a long winded rant based around arbitrary statistics that most people scrolling this thread wont bother reading isn't changing anything.


+

Can you guys read, or are you blinded by manic rage?

I have stated more than once that I am arguing that defense today is better than it was in the 80s and 90s, its not hard to understand.

I'm not cherry picking screenshots either, these breakdowns occurred multiple times in every single game, I dare you to post a random highlight from that era and I will expose it within minutes, seconds even.

You can choose to live in denial or open your mind to the truth, but that is your decision to make, not mine.

And, yeah, there were SO MANY bodies in the paint, but half of the time they were asleep on their feet and standing flat, only to desperately lunge at the ball to no avail, lets not forget about illegal defense rules, come on.

Check this example for instance.

FOUR guys in the paint, yet only one of them managed to jump for the ball.

The white guy lunges without moving at all, the big man runs past him with his arms at his hips, the man originally guarding him slipped to the side without contesting, there is no way you can justify sequences like that.

http://imgur.com/OHv0ZEh

[Dro]

Watch this video and tell me what basically ALL OF THE PLAYS have in common:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFvlRmO1Zs0

I'll tell you, BODIES, BODIES AND MORE BODIES!!! between Jordan and the basket, with hand checking and no flagrant fouls to save him. He had no other legit scorers on his team in the 80's to space the floor for him so he basically had to take 2 to 3 defenders with him to the basket and a lot of plays in the paint.

Steph Curry plays on a team with multiple 3 point shooters and illegal screeners to create space for him while playing in a league with NO HANDCHECK, flagrant fouls and a 3 second defensive rule to clear the patient for any drives to the basket!!! Go watch basically every Curry made layup and it is basically a red carpet waltz to the basket!

Jordan played in the hardest era for perimeter players to attack the basket with a lousy team to boot. Curry plays in the best team in the league in the easiest time for perimeter players to flourish, just look at mental midgets Harden and Westbrick basically penetrating at will.

Put Curry on the 89' Bulls instead of Jordan with the rules of the time and NO OTHER TEAMMATES TO SPACE the floor for him what do you think happens?!? He's still probably going to nail a lot of the 3's he does now but he's going to have to do it with guys like Robertson, Dumars, Moncrief, Pippen, DJ, Cooper, Harper etc... absolutely DRAPED all over him one on one and forget about untouched forays to the basket as teams packed the paint in those days and would probably send his little as! to the floor on numerous occasions. Would love to see Curry go up against the Bad Boy Pistons and get the Jordan treatment and see if he even averages 20 points per game. Teams would adjust rather easily as they did to Dale Ellis and Michael Adams!

Curry is on the perfect team, system and perfect RULES for him to flourish!!
Exactly. They need to pop in a tape of the 98 Bulls/Pacers series and watch how Pippen basically handchecked Mark Jackson 94 feet with no fouls called. Lets see if Steph is jacking up 30 foot 3 pointers with a 6'7 premier defender draped all over him.

Imagine Kwahi handchecking Steph all the way up the court...Hell, how about even somebody like Patrick Beverly...

I don't want to take anything away from Steph but it is what it is. Different rules, you can't touch players, can't guard the paint.

[Da_Realist]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/sports/basketball/golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-christmas-day.html?_r=0

Isiah Thomas: “Listen, we’ve had great offensive players before in this league. I played against two of the best — Michael Jordan and Kareem. Michael would get 30 and 40 against us, but I don’t remember him getting them without a hand in his face.

“The rules favor the offense now; that’s the way it is in all sports. That’s what people want to see. How good would Larry Bird shoot with the way defense is played now, especially on the perimeter?

“I played on some of the best defensive teams ever, my whole life — high school, college, pros — when you could actually get close to the ball. Now, with the rules being what they are, you have too many people can’t play defense, make no attempt. Right now perimeter defense in the N.B.A. is kind of the worst I’ve ever seen, an absolute joke.

[Da_Realist]

Exactly. They need to pop in a tape of the 98 Bulls/Pacers series and watch how Pippen basically handchecked Mark Jackson 94 feet with no fouls called. Lets see if Steph is jacking up 30 foot 3 pointers with a 6'7 premier defender draped all over him.

http://ca.complex.com/sports/2016/03/oral-history-96-bulls?curator=MediaREDEF

Tim Legler (guard, Washington Bullets): The Bulls were the greatest defensive team I have ever played against. The amount of ground they could cover with their length and athletic ability was just different than every other team I played against.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/warriors/2016/03/22/george-karl-warriors-bulls-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-stephen-curry/82119926/

George Karl: “That Bulls team, in my mind, was an incredibly, incredibly tough defensive basketball team," Karl said. "They could explode on you offensively, they could score points on you offensively, but when the game was in the nitty-gritty, it was almost impossible to score."

[3ball]

Well guess what, I proved you wrong, they really didn't defend the 3.



You showed gifs of 6 shots where the defender was within a few feet of Jordan - I posted NBA.com's stats showing that nearly HALF of today's 3-pointers are taken with the defender 6+ feet away



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- nba.com




The descriptions in parenthesis saying "open" and "wide open" are the NBA's descriptions - as you can see, most 3-pointers in today's game are "open" or "wide open".. :confusedshrug:

Today's open 3-point looks shouldn't be a surprise because with MULTIPLE players standing behind the line on every play, the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. In previous eras, only 1 player would be standing behind the line, so defenses didn't need complicated rotations and a defender could hug his man at the 3-point line easier without needing to come off him.






I showed that Jordan was open for his 3-pointers, which demonstrates how previous eras didn't defend the 3-point line


That's because the Blazers didn't think he could shoot like Bird from 3-point range, so they sagged off, just like the Spurs sagged off Lebron in 2013 Finals.. But if they thought he shot 3-pointers like Bird or Reggie Miller, they would've guarded him tightly at all times because ALL eras defend good shooters tightly on the perimeter - guys like Reggie Miller, Bird or Dale Ellis were guarded just as tightly as today.

Infact, they were guarded much tighter due to legal hand-checking, which is banned in today's game - the NBA's current hands-off rule requires space between defender and ballhandler, allowing for easier driving and shooting than previous eras.

However, 3-point defense was a secondary concern against most 80's and 90's players because FEW were 3-point shooters and the 3-point-producing, drive-and-kick plays of today's game weren't common back then - instead, POST-UPS were the staple of most offenses, so teams had to emphasize defending the paint instead of the 3-point line.

But now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.
.

[Blue&Orange]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/sports/basketball/golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-christmas-day.html?_r=0

Isiah Thomas: “Listen, we’ve had great offensive players before in this league. I played against two of the best — Michael Jordan and Kareem. Michael would get 30 and 40 against us, but I don’t remember him getting them without a hand in his face.

“The rules favor the offense now; that’s the way it is in all sports. That’s what people want to see. How good would Larry Bird shoot with the way defense is played now, especially on the perimeter?

“I played on some of the best defensive teams ever, my whole life — high school, college, pros — when you could actually get close to the ball. Now, with the rules being what they are, you have too many people can’t play defense, make no attempt. Right now perimeter defense in the N.B.A. is kind of the worst I’ve ever seen, an absolute joke.
How hilarious is the "hands down man down" when every time a player gets his hands up in the perimeter is a shooting foul?

[CuterThanRubio]

You showed gifs of 6 shots where the defender was within a few feet of Jordan - I posted NBA.com's stats showing that nearly HALF of today's 3-pointers are taken with the defender 6+ feet away



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- nba.com




The descriptions in parenthesis saying "open" and "wide open" are the NBA's descriptions - as you can see, most 3-pointers in today's game are "open" or "wide open".. :confusedshrug:

Today's open 3-point looks shouldn't be a surprise because with MULTIPLE players standing behind the line on every play, the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. In previous eras, only 1 player would be standing behind the line, so defenses didn't need complicated rotations and a defender could hug his man at the 3-point line easier without needing to come off him.




That's because the Blazers didn't think he could shoot like Bird from 3-point range, so they sagged off, just like the Spurs sagged off Lebron in 2013 Finals.. But if they thought he shot 3-pointers like Bird or Reggie Miller, they would've guarded him tightly at all times because ALL eras defend good shooters tightly on the perimeter - guys like Reggie Miller, Bird or Dale Ellis were guarded just as tightly as today.

Infact, they were guarded much tighter due to legal hand-checking, which is banned in today's game - the NBA's current hands-off rule requires space between defender and ballhandler, allowing for easier driving and shooting than previous eras.

However, 3-point defense was a secondary concern against most 80's and 90's players because FEW were 3-point shooters and the 3-point-producing, drive-and-kick plays of today's game weren't common back then - instead, POST-UPS were the staple of most offenses, so teams had to emphasize defending the paint instead of the 3-point line.

But now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.
.

I also showcased multiple Larry Bird shots and a Reggie Miller shot, and a Jordan gif that wouldn't show up for some reason.

I still stand by my challenge, post any clips from that era and I'll be revealing things you don't want to see.


Please understand the difference between CREATING space and lackadaisical effort/outright refusal to cover certain areas of the floor.

There is a consistent theme of uninterested defenders allowing open threes in the 80s and 90s, they only seemed concerned about that part of the game once they started going in.

Defenses today look to prevent those openings from happening in the first place, back then they would only search for a response to the problems after they arose, and once a guy like Bird or Jordan got it going there was no stopping them.

Of course there are going to be open looks now, coaches formulate offensive motion specifically to create them, its not the same as LAZY and UNINTERESTED defense from the 80s and 90s.

I know you suffer from autism and struggle with comprehension, but lets remember that Jordan's shrug game is merely an example, this isn't an anti MJ thread, it's a 90s defense sucks thread, so please relax.

And I really have to laugh when I see TIM LEGLER used as a credible source for gauging defense, he would have had trouble scoring in the WNBA, what did you think he was going to say?

[3ball]

its not the same as LAZY and UNINTERESTED defense from the 80s and 90s.



In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders.. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[Blue&Orange]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/sports/basketball/golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-christmas-day.html?_r=0

Isiah Thomas: “Listen, we’ve had great offensive players before in this league. I played against two of the best — Michael Jordan and Kareem. Michael would get 30 and 40 against us, but I don’t remember him getting them without a hand in his face.

“The rules favor the offense now; that’s the way it is in all sports. That’s what people want to see. How good would Larry Bird shoot with the way defense is played now, especially on the perimeter?

“I played on some of the best defensive teams ever, my whole life — high school, college, pros — when you could actually get close to the ball. Now, with the rules being what they are, you have too many people can’t play defense, make no attempt. Right now perimeter defense in the N.B.A. is kind of the worst I’ve ever seen, an absolute joke.


http://www.nba.com/games/20160324/CLEBKN/gameinfo.html

Lebron all the way vid, 3,4 steps?


How someone can tell Lebron is a top10 player with a straight face is beyond me.

[CuterThanRubio]

http://www.nba.com/games/20160324/CLEBKN/gameinfo.html

Lebron all the way vid, 3,4 steps?


How someone can tell Lebron is a top10 player with a straight face is beyond me.

If you guys think I'm a LeBron fanatic I have some sad news for you, he isn't close to my favorite player although I do have respect for his game (outside of the traveling and stiff arming, you can't question his athletic ability and court vision)

Ahh yes, the classic SPACING GIF ONSLAUGHT lol

Deflect my challenge and post redundant BS that doesn't apply to the subject.

I'm sure level headed modern NBA enthusiasts can appreciate my findings, there will be more exposures to come in the future!

This was the first thread I ever made and look at the viewcount, the only people in here throwing tantrums and attacking me are MJ fanboys, I think that says it all.

[jstern]

only in your world is 102.6 > 105.3 :oldlol:

I made a mistake, it's 2.7

But like I said, the league is averaging 2.7 more points per game than in 92, and the league this year also has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

And out of all of that all you can say is 102.6 > 105.3.

[jstern]

To add to the discussion, here's Steve Kerr, who is Curry's head coach, answering a question about Curry.

https://twitter.com/GamePhreak845/status/705144657995538432

Pure honesty, no bias. He's answering as a person who's not influenced by message forums who takes sides. He answering as a person who is not exposed to the internet would, honest with themselves would

[Showtime80']

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thank you Steve!!!!

Steve Nash would've been coming off the bench for EVERY title winning team in the 80's yet in the 21st century he's a two time MVP! Pathetic!

Check out the attention and punishment Jordan took in those early matchups with the Pistons with 3 to 4 guys collapsing on him in the paint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjatwXrtIsU

Curry in those Bulls teams in place of Jordan without the present system and teammates would be p!ssing in his pants going up against that onslaught.

[sd3035]

I made a mistake, it's 2.7

But like I said, the league is averaging 2.7 more points per game than in 92, and the league this year also has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

And out of all of that all you can say is 102.6 > 105.3.


The point is, dummy, that the league was averaging more points in '92, not your mathematical failure

the 105.3 is from back then, and the 102.6 is from this year :lol

[jstern]

The point is, dummy, that the league was averaging more points in '92, not your mathematical failure

the 105.3 is from back then, and the 102.6 is from this year :lol

You really are dumb, and I'm not even saying that as an insult.

You said that perimeter defense was garbage back then. So I'm going to paste what I wrote and just removed that the league average a measly 2.7 more points per games

I'll just focus on the fact that the league this year has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

I mean I know you under stand it, but since you can't deny those facts, you'll just say 105.3 > 102.6

[sd3035]

You really are dumb, and I'm not even saying that as an insult.

You said that perimeter defense was garbage back then. So I'm going to paste what I wrote and just removed that the league average a measly 2.7 more points per games

I'll just focus on the fact that the league this year has a higher two point percentage, and a higher 3 point percentage. Higher 2 point percentage, despite 1992 having so many great big men, and not even one PG in the top 20 in scoring. 5 Point Guards in the top 20 PPG this year. Sounds like things have gotten much easier for perimeter players.

I mean I know you under stand it, but since you can't deny those facts, you'll just say 105.3 > 102.6


You're livid :roll:

[sportjames23]

Watch this video and tell me what basically ALL OF THE PLAYS have in common:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFvlRmO1Zs0

I'll tell you, BODIES, BODIES AND MORE BODIES!!! between Jordan and the basket, with hand checking and no flagrant fouls to save him. He had no other legit scorers on his team in the 80's to space the floor for him so he basically had to take 2 to 3 defenders with him to the basket and a lot of plays in the paint.

Steph Curry plays on a team with multiple 3 point shooters and illegal screeners to create space for him while playing in a league with NO HANDCHECK, flagrant fouls and a 3 second defensive rule to clear the patient for any drives to the basket!!! Go watch basically every Curry made layup and it is basically a red carpet waltz to the basket!

Jordan played in the hardest era for perimeter players to attack the basket with a lousy team to boot. Curry plays in the best team in the league in the easiest time for perimeter players to flourish, just look at mental midgets Harden and Westbrick basically penetrating at will.

Put Curry on the 89' Bulls instead of Jordan with the rules of the time and NO OTHER TEAMMATES TO SPACE the floor for him what do you think happens?!? He's still probably going to nail a lot of the 3's he does now but he's going to have to do it with guys like Robertson, Dumars, Moncrief, Pippen, DJ, Cooper, Harper etc... absolutely DRAPED all over him one on one and forget about untouched forays to the basket as teams packed the paint in those days and would probably send his little as! to the floor on numerous occasions. Would love to see Curry go up against the Bad Boy Pistons and get the Jordan treatment and see if he even averages 20 points per game. Teams would adjust rather easily as they did to Dale Ellis and Michael Adams!

Curry is on the perfect team, system and perfect RULES for him to flourish!!


:applause: :cheers: :rockon:

[CuterThanRubio]

Meanwhile, in 2016, superior shooters are drilling clutch daggers over outstretched defenders who are actively anticipating a three.

http://s18.postimg.org/s0ytneeat/lill.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/s0ytneeat/)

Damian Lillard would average 30ppg with ease in the 90s

[ballinhun8]

Looks like an inefficient long 2 pt shot attempt if you ask me.




Some really bad pics your putting up as "proof" bro

[aj1987]

Does the retarded '80's stan not know that Nash averaged 17/3/8 on 60% TS from '01 to '04?

More like '80's starting PG's, at best, would be used as defensive role-players today. If they're good defenders, that is. :oldlol:

[SchrOEder]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw

this is tough defense of the 90s? LOL. Look how Kobe, Durant, Dirk, Wade or Garnett are being defended in the RS and playoffs... OMG.

I already laughed as i saw some footages of larry bird and the 80s basketball... weak defense as hell

[pastis]

At least post the video instead of stills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_zgkYsnUTw


hhahahah. 90s defense. HAHAHA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC-pzv34c50

[pastis]

Or the overall quality of players just got better today than in the 90s. You can make arguments both ways, depending on your agenda.

this. even lazaruss and cavsftw41 admitted that back then stars in the 60-80s were maybe as good as the stars today, but the role players back then were just terrible, basically worse than highschool basketball today.

[diamenz]

simpletons everywhere.

[3ball]

.
NBA.com describes most of today's 3-point attempts as "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet)



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................1.7% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight)................ 17.2% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight).............41.6% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).............39.5% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open)



Over 80% of today's 3-point looks are "open" or "wide open"..

Today's open 3-point looks shouldn't be a surprise because with MULTIPLE players standing behind the line on every play, the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

In previous eras, only 1 player would be standing behind the line, so defenses didn't need complicated rotations and a defender could hug his man at the 3-point line easier without needing to come off him.

[Showtime80']

LOL! You really start to see the ages and lack of knowledge from the posters here when talking about 80's role players!!! First of all teams back then didn't have "big 2's or 3's" like today's colluding puss!es, they had big 4's and 5's!!! But just for the sake of labeling "role players" take a look at the contending teams "role players" and compare them to the dumb fundamentally flawed trash teams today have to put on the floor:

80's Lakers role players

Rambis
Cooper
Wilkes
Scott
Thompson
McAdoo
Kupchak

80' Celtics role players

Archibald
Maxwell
Ainge
DJ
Walton
Wedman

80's Sixers role players

Dawkins
Cheeks
Bobby Jones
Toney

80's Pistons role players

Mahorn
Rodman
Aguirre
Microwave

LOL!!! The Cavs in 2015 reached the Finals and won 2 games starting players that wouldn't have even come off the PRACTICE SQUAD for any of those teams!

To be a "role player" in the 80's you needed to basically have all-star level talent! Today's role guys are dumb athletic bodies with NO UNDERSTANDING of basketball fundamentals! He'll some of today's manufactured stars like Harden and Westbrick are dumber than rocks when it comes to the intricacies of the game!

In the 80's basketball IQ and fundamentals came before athleticism and the quality of play reflected it! Enjoy this generation of dumb as! Role players like Tristan Thompson, Aaron Gordon, Jamaal Crawford, DeAndre Jordan, JR Smith, Josh Smith etc...

Sad time for the NBA!

And one more thing about the "shrug game" how many times did that "open 3 point explosion happen before or after that game?

[Dro]

That's what gets lost in the 3>2 mindset. The plays in the paint are guaranteed going to get opponent in foul trouble quicker
Great point...often overlooked...

[Dro]

There are dumb people and then are dumb people. Who are you arguing with? And what are you arguing?

How da **** such a dumb thread gets 4 pages?


Basically there's not a living soul that ever argued that 80's 90's people were on the perimeter guarding 3's, everybody and their grandmother knows the they were all in the paint.

This basically...

[Labissiere]

This basically...
Right, but 3ball changes history to make sure every "challenge" comes from MJ's era.

[Da_Realist]

LOL! You really start to see the ages and lack of knowledge from the posters here when talking about 80's role players!!! First of all teams back then didn't have "big 2's or 3's" like today's colluding puss!es, they had big 4's and 5's!!! But just for the sake of labeling "role players" take a look at the contending teams "role players" and compare them to the dumb fundamentally flawed trash teams today have to put on the floor:

80's Lakers role players

Rambis
Cooper
Wilkes
Scott
Thompson
McAdoo
Kupchak

80' Celtics role players

Archibald
Maxwell
Ainge
DJ
Walton
Wedman

80's Sixers role players

Dawkins
Cheeks
Bobby Jones
Toney

80's Pistons role players

Mahorn
Rodman
Aguirre
Microwave

LOL!!! The Cavs in 2015 reached the Finals and won 2 games starting players that wouldn't have even come off the PRACTICE SQUAD for any of those teams!

To be a "role player" in the 80's you needed to basically have all-star level talent! Today's role guys are dumb athletic bodies with NO UNDERSTANDING of basketball fundamentals! He'll some of today's manufactured stars like Harden and Westbrick are dumber than rocks when it comes to the intricacies of the game!

In the 80's basketball IQ and fundamentals came before athleticism and the quality of play reflected it! Enjoy this generation of dumb as! Role players like Tristan Thompson, Aaron Gordon, Jamaal Crawford, DeAndre Jordan, JR Smith, Josh Smith etc...

Sad time for the NBA!

And one more thing about the "shrug game" how many times did that "open 3 point explosion happen before or after that game?

Preach! :applause:

[3ball]

Basically there's not a living soul that ever argued that 80's 90's people were on the perimeter guarding 3's, everybody and their grandmother knows the they were all in the paint.


Because most players didn't shoot 3-pointers back then - that's why defenders guarded the paint.

But the few good 3-point shooters that existed were guarded just as tightly as today... ALL eras defend good shooters tightly... basketball 101... :hammerhead:

Infact, they were guarded much tighter due to legal hand-checking, which is banned in today's game - the NBA's current hands-off rule requires space between defender and ballhandler, allowing for easier driving and shooting than previous eras.
.

[3ball]

.
Over 70% of Curry's 3-point attempts are either "open" (4-6 ft) or "wide open" (6+ ft).. However, the league average is 80%.



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).................... 2.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................5.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................2.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................0.4% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)................ 26.1% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............45.9% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............24.3% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)



Keep in mind that today's teams take 24 threes per game, and the primary method used to generate these looks is screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

However, today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This format didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.

So don't be surprised that Curry's 3-pointers are mostly wide open.. Today's offenses are designed to maximize 3-point shooting and generate kickouts for easy looks.. But in previous eras, guys like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..

[OnFire]

Sure kiddo. Whatever you say. If you were around we'd pat you on the head politely and send you away.



Problem with threads like this is, these kids find little clips on YouTube or pictures and immediately form an entire argument based on something with zero context.


this is why we don't take you seriously. Some of us were actually watching ball back in the 90s. Stop.

I'm getting old too, but you know, you watching it in the 90's isn't as good as him watching it yesterday to prove his point. Which memory do you think is better? His from yesterday or you from 1991?

[sekachu]

Meanwhile, in 2016, superior shooters are drilling clutch daggers over outstretched defenders who are actively anticipating a three.

http://s18.postimg.org/s0ytneeat/lill.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/s0ytneeat/)

Damian Lillard would average 30ppg with ease in the 90s




The 3pts in 90s era wasn't primary utilized back then unlike today's game relies heavily, so it isn't rational to say the defense wasn't good in 90s.

If the 90s teams have a chance to play against today's nba, they will adapt the game and adjust the defense. I am sure they will focus more on perimeter defense when they play against like curry or lillard.

[OnFire]

The 3pts in 90s era wasn't primary utilized back then unlike today's game relies heavily, so it isn't rational to say the defense wasn't good in 90s.

If the 90s teams have a chance to play against today's nba, they will adapt the game and adjust the defense. I am sure they will focus more on perimeter defense when they play against like curry or lillard.

So only old players could adapt? The guys who watch 50 hours of game film a week with iso cameras on every player couldn't adapt to previous era defense and offense?

[3ball]

.
NBA.com describes most of today's 3-point attempts as "open" (4-6 feet) or "very open" (6+ feet)



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................1.7% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight)................ 17.2% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight).............41.6% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).............39.5% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open)




Over 70% of Curry's 3-point attempts are either "open" (4-6 ft) or "very open" (6+ ft).. However, the league average is 80%, as shown above.



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).................... 2.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................5.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................2.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................0.4% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)................ 26.1% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............45.9% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............24.3% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)




It makes sense that most 3-pointers are wide open - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

Keep in mind that driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for most of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to just stand there and wait for kickouts like today's player.

Btw, 3-pointers have ALWAYS needed to be more open, much more than 2-pointers - certainly, most 2-pointers aren't taken with 4+ feet of room like today's 3-pointers.. Since 3-pointers must be more open, today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG.

Otoh, previous eras barely shot 3-pointers - instead, they settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.. In addition to creating faster pace, the higher proportion of 2-pointers caused MUCH higher offensive rebounding rates, which resulted in higher ORtg and DRtg.. This is just how the stat is calculated.

If you removed the 3-point line from today's game, offensive rebounding rate would increase again, which would result in higher ORtg... And of course, teams would settle for more contested shots (2-pointers), resulting in less offense being run and faster pace.
.

[Dro]

I also showcased multiple Larry Bird shots and a Reggie Miller shot, and a Jordan gif that wouldn't show up for some reason.

I still stand by my challenge, post any clips from that era and I'll be revealing things you don't want to see.



Of course there are going to be open looks now, coaches formulate offensive motion specifically to create them, its not the same as LAZY and UNINTERESTED defense from the 80s and 90s.

I know you suffer from autism and struggle with comprehension, but lets remember that Jordan's shrug game is merely an example, this isn't an anti MJ thread, it's a 90s defense sucks thread, so please relax.

And I really have to laugh when I see TIM LEGLER used as a credible source for gauging defense, he would have had trouble scoring in the WNBA, what did you think he was going to say?
This is really your reasoning? lol. Tim Legler in his prime, whenever that was would wreck anyone in the WNBA and anyone you know personally....

[CuterThanRubio]

Looks like an inefficient long 2 pt shot attempt if you ask me.




Some really bad pics your putting up as "proof" bro

What do you mean "long 2" lmao

You are in DENIAL.

How are you going to be in here defending something without knowing the history behind it?

Jordan hit 6 first half threes in that game, and they were all UNGUARDED.

They aren't long twos, although I'm not surprised a Jordan fanboy who only watched highlights on the internet would assume that, since the only seasons he was able to knock them down from outside is when the line was shortened to long two distance!

[Dro]

If you guys think I'm a LeBron fanatic I have some sad news for you, he isn't close to my favorite player although I do have respect for his game (outside of the traveling and stiff arming, you can't question his athletic ability and court vision)

Ahh yes, the classic SPACING GIF ONSLAUGHT lol

Deflect my challenge and post redundant BS that doesn't apply to the subject.

I'm sure level headed modern NBA enthusiasts can appreciate my findings, there will be more exposures to come in the future!

This was the first thread I ever made and look at the viewcount, the only people in here throwing tantrums and attacking me are MJ fanboys, I think that says it all.
Agenda exposed...Plenty of people in this thread going at you are not MJ FANBOYS whatsoever. When people see an argument that makes no sense, they usually say something about it. As soon as someone starts accusing someone of being a FANBOY because they disagree with you, you lost.

[Dro]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]http://ca.complex.com/sports/2016/03/oral-history-96-bulls?curator=MediaREDEF

Tim Legler (guard, Washington Bullets): The Bulls were the greatest defensive team I have ever played against. The amount of ground they could cover with their length and athletic ability was just different than every other team I played against.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/warriors/2016/03/22/george-karl-warriors-bulls-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-stephen-curry/82119926/

George Karl: [I]

[CuterThanRubio]

Agenda exposed...Plenty of people in this thread going at you are not MJ FANBOYS whatsoever. When people see an argument that makes no sense, they usually say something about it. As soon as someone starts accusing someone of being a FANBOY because they disagree with you, you lost.

Once you start championing TIM LEGLER as a credible source and a worthy talent you know you have gone off the deep end.

You want to talk about an agenda lol.

And yes I do have an agenda and it is very clear

Modern defense>80s/90s

[3ball]

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs

JORDAN:.. 31.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced) <--- links to nba.com data
PIPPEN:... 23.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced)


Assist Percentage 1998-1998 Playoffs

JORDAN:.. 22.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced)
PIPPEN:... 22.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced)



And whats crazy is they never, EVER, had a true defensive presence at center/rim protector.


Without Jordan, the Bulls don't have ANY of the great intangibles - every Bulls player says this - Jordan was an animal in practice and his determination and competitiveness drove that team to greatness.. As the leader of the team, he came thru - i.e. he didn't let his assignment get FMVP, where his bad defensive effort permeated the team.

Interestingly, in 1993, the Bulls half-assed the entire year, but their DRtg (7th) was nearly as good as 1994 (6th), when they were busting their ass every possession.. The Bulls' inability to materially improve their defense in 1994 despite playing much harder is because the team didn't have Jordan.. And considering their defense didn't change, the Bulls' massive drop-off from 3-peat champion to 2nd Round team was due almost entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense, which caused the Bulls ORtg to crater from #1 all-time during 1st three-peat, to 14th in the league in 1994.

Of course, nearly EVERY championship team has a great defense - that's more of a wash amongst championship teams.. Otoh, the Bulls goat offense is more of an advantage over other championship teams - far less championship teams have a great offense.

The Bulls' great offense was due to MJ's scoring the highest percentage of team points ever - including at least 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers - AND leading the Bulls in passing (he led Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats, shown above).

Perhaps the most important factor to the Bulls all-time offense was that Jordan achieved his GOAT scoring mostly off-ball, which allowed his teammates to play to full capacity alongside him (depending on the year, Pippen and Grant's stats alongside Jordan were 85-100% capacity, compre to their 1994 stats).
.

[Da_Realist]

And yes I do have an agenda and it is very clear

Modern defense>80s/90s

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14849780

Isiah Thomas: Out on the perimeter, this is the worst, uh, perimeter defense that I've ever seen in the NBA. When you watch college games, or even high school games, you see defenders sitting down guarding the basketball, particularly at the point guard position and they're able to keep their man in front of them, they're able to challenge shots and they're able to get over screens.

Why do NBA coaches let them play off of them so much?

Isiah Thomas: I think the way the rules are in the NBA right now...it severely hampers the big man. The perimeter players right now...the pendulum has swung so far to the small man, that the rules really favor the small man. I mean, um, we've even eliminated the center position from the All-Star ballot. If we look at our game today, it's a totally different game -- the way the game is being played, the way the game is being coached and the way the game is being officiated.

...

Do you wish we could go back to that era and back to those rules?

Isiah Thomas: I do think the pendulum has swung too far against the big player. When you look at the big man in our league right now, they have zero advantage. As a matter of fact, they're forced to play like small players would play the game. They're forced to go out to the perimeter and try to make three point shots. The way offenses are played and designed today, it's just totally different. And the way defenses are played and designed today... you're actually forcing the big man to go against his strength which is normally closer to the basket so you're asking him to go out to the perimeter to get three points as opposed to when he was down low and he could get an And-1 and a foul. And then there was a lot of strategy that came to the game where a player would have two or three fouls, you would run plays to try to get that player off the floor. Now you have most of your players who play 40-45 minutes a night...and Greenie you were around during the Chicago era when uhh... You know, the intellect of the game from the point guard position and from a schematic standpoint is just totally...it's kind of wiped away. We never wanted to play against Jordan for 45 minutes. We never wanted to play against Abdul Jabbar for 45 minutes or Magic Johnson. You tried to get those guys in foul trouble and move them off the floor. Right now, we see guys get three fouls and they'll never get another foul the rest of the game. It's just a different way of thinking about the game, it's a different way of playing the game, it's an era of the game. The way the game is being played today, the offense has the advantage and the perimeter players have the advantage and we should enjoy what we're watching.

[CuterThanRubio]

Jordan fanboys are raging hard.

You are lucky they didn't have shot tracking back in those days, the numbers would be close to 100%.

And I have already addressed that in previous posts, except I'm not going to continue repeating myself like 3ball does.

I have said everything I need to say on this particular subject and the facts remain!

Look at that viewcount lol, I'm pulling major traffic to the site, your welcome Jeff!

Stay tuned for my next thread exposing the ease of scoring during these so called tougher times!

[Dro]

Right, but 3ball changes history to make sure every "challenge" comes from MJ's era.
Right but EVERYONE knows that also. lol. Why let it affect the argument?

[Dro]

Once you start championing TIM LEGLER as a credible source and a worthy talent you know you have gone off the deep end.

You want to talk about an agenda lol.

And yes I do have an agenda and it is very clear

Modern defense>80s/90s
Yup, no touching players, no paint defense, defense is so awesome..Steph Curry avg. 30 ppg on basically nothing but 3's...Klay Thompson who can't even create his own shot, basically making over 250 3's per year...Yup, that awesome "modern" defense.

Defense is atrocious now, not sure what NBA you're watching....

[ballinhun8]

What do you mean "long 2" lmao

You are in DENIAL.

How are you going to be in here defending something without knowing the history behind it?

Jordan hit 6 first half threes in that game, and they were all UNGUARDED.

They aren't long twos, although I'm not surprised a Jordan fanboy who only watched highlights on the internet would assume that, since the only seasons he was able to knock them down from outside is when the line was shortened to long two distance!



I was talking about the Lillard pic you put up bro

[ballinhun8]

Jordan fanboys are raging hard.

You are lucky they didn't have shot tracking back in those days, the numbers would be close to 100%.

And I have already addressed that in previous posts, except I'm not going to continue repeating myself like 3ball does.

I have said everything I need to say on this particular subject and the facts remain!

Look at that viewcount lol, I'm pulling major traffic to the site, your welcome Jeff!

Stay tuned for my next thread exposing the ease of scoring during these so called tougher times!


You haven't exposed anything though.


There's so much traffic because people have exposed your myth.

[Blue&Orange]

There are dumb people and then are dumb people. Who are you arguing with? And what are you arguing?

How da **** such a dumb thread gets 4 pages?


Basically there's not a living soul that ever argued that 80's 90's people were on the perimeter guarding 3's, everybody and their grandmother knows the they were all in the paint.

It really takes a special genius to cherry pick some screenshots with everyone, guess where, in the paint and shout to the world "look here, look what i've found"



The only thing to take from the shrug game is that the guy that people keep saying wouldn't be able to adjust to todays game and shoot 3's, broke a 3pt NBA record the first time he tried to shoot more 3's than 2's

Deflect my challenge and post redundant BS that doesn't apply to the subject.

I'm sure level headed modern NBA enthusiasts can appreciate my findings, there will be more exposures to come in the future!



:roll:


Can

[CuterThanRubio]

A small group of Jordan fanboys are posting in this thread, explain the thousands of views?

Whether people are refusing to post because they think I'm trolling or whatever the reason may be, there is an absurdly low percentage of users who are denying the truth compared who those who absorbed the information and learned from it.

Blue&Orange you have a weird infatuation with LeBron, I suggest therapy.

Of all players from the modern era to bash, go after an easier target please, we all know King James would TORMENT defenders in a lazier league with a much faster pace.

Don't worry, it's coming soon, and it will accumulate thousands of views just like this one.

[CuterThanRubio]

I was talking about the Lillard pic you put up bro

It is apparent you don't pay attention to the NBA like I do.

That was from LAST NIGHT and it was a three, just because you said it was a long two doesn't change FACTS lol

What's the deal with all of these NON-NBA fans posting on this board, acting like their opinion holds any weight when they can't even craft a legitimate rebuttal without EXPOSING themselves for being clueless?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFbYesLfGY

Dummy, do some research before coming at me next time!

[andgar923]

Due to the recent era debates on the board, I've gained interest in analyzing old clips to compare and contrast defensive execution, since it has been implied by the majority that oldschool strategies were much tougher to score against.

I have concluded that the three point shot was rarely guarded, even in situations where a player got hot and had been knocking them down at a high rate, they still managed to find themselves free from distance more often than not.

I know it wasn't a priority back then, but to claim that modern teams wouldn't be able to compete against older teams is an utter falsification, especially when considering the improved ability to shoot, and the way the three was defended in the past.



Ok...so let's say we go along with you.

The 3pt shot wasn't defended because, well, like you mentioned, it wasn't used much... ok.... that's logical right?

Why would someone defend a shot that:

A. wasn't used much
B. 3pt shooters weren't much of a threat

If you actually know your history, the 3pt shot was 'frowned' upon back then, so players wouldn't really take it unless left wide open. The offensive strategy back then was to pound the ball inside and play in the mid range game.

So even if we were to go along with your assumption that it wasn't defended, there was no real reason to do so, correct?

IF past eras played today's eras, it would be harder for today's players to even bring the ball up the court and get open enough to get position, let alone just bomb 3pt shots.

So automatically, who has to adjust the most?

Off the top today's era has a lot more of adjusting to do then past era players. Now.... not saying that past eras won't adjust, OF COURSE THEY WOULD, but their transition process would be smoother.

Be more physical on the perimeter and fight them OVER the screen more as opposed to under. Defensive schemes to stop 3pt shooters will change, combine that with more physical play today's players would have a hard time even launching as many 3s as they do today, let alone being as effective.

Sure, there would be times when they go off.

But their 3pt fga would drop, their efficiency would drop.

Do you actually think you know the game?

You don't.

I've played against kids with the modern day mentality, but their confidence gets shut down when you put an elbow on them.

[3ball]

.
Over 80% of today's 3-point attempts are "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "very open" (6+ feet) - as described by NBA.com:



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................1.7% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight)................ 17.2% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight).............41.6% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open).............39.5% (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open)




Over 70% of Curry's 3-point attempts are either "open" (4-6 ft) or "very open" (6+ ft).. However, the league average is 80%, as shown above.



........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).................... 2.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................5.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)..................2.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS ................0.4% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)................ 26.1% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............45.9% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/).............24.3% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/)




Keep in mind that today's teams take 24 threes per game, and the primary method used to generate these looks is screen-roll/drive-and-kick.

However, today's drive-and-kick format requires multiple shooters behind the 3-point line on every possession to kick the ball out to.. This format didn't exist in previous eras because teams didn't have enough 3-point-shooting personnel to position multiple shooters behind the line.

Driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.

So don't be surprised that Curry's 3-pointers are mostly wide open.. Today's offenses are designed to maximize 3-point shooting and generate kickouts for easy looks.. But in previous eras, guys like Reggie and Bird had to run off screens to get 3-point looks - they didn't have 3-point shooting teammates to enable drive-and-kick so they could stand and wait for an easy kickout like today's 3-point shooter enjoys..
.

[3ball]

those who absorbed the information and learned from it.


Learned what exactly - what have you taught us?

[andgar923]

It is apparent you don't pay attention to the NBA like I do.

That was from LAST NIGHT and it was a three, just because you said it was a long two doesn't change FACTS lol

What's the deal with all of these NON-NBA fans posting on this board, acting like their opinion holds any weight when they can't even craft a legitimate rebuttal without EXPOSING themselves for being clueless?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFbYesLfGY

Dummy, do some research before coming at me next time!

Contested shots are made ALL THE TIME.

It is about 'consistency'

I can post a clip of old players hitting contested shots for years. And Im sure you'll counter with your own.

FACT is, today's players get easier looks due to a less aggressive defense.

[CuterThanRubio]

Contested shots are made ALL THE TIME.

It is about 'consistency'

I can post a clip of old players hitting contested shots for years. And Im sure you'll counter with your own.

FACT is, today's players get easier looks due to a less aggressive defense.

Players in the past got easy looks due to less aggressive defense, did you not see the images?

Just wait for my new thread, its going to take a few days but there will be plenty more examples of LAZY and UNINTERESTED defenders.

Open looks are CREATED in the modern era, they were simply ALLOWED in the past.

3ball specifically stated in a recent thread that the 90s defended the three, and my claims were a myth, well he is WRONG, and even you are willing to acknowledge that.

The NBA is tougher now because you have to cover more of the floor, there is no paint camping or illegal defense to make up for your lack of awareness.

Just watch some highlights, you will see SLOPPY scrums under the rim, and mostly layups being scored on the fastbreak in those days, defense was NOT a priority.


+

Yo 3ball, stop spamming the same post in my thread, nobody cares what you have to say.

[andgar923]

Players in the past got easy looks due to less aggressive defense,

Stopped reading there.

YOu're a poor troll.

And a new one, since most Bron and Kobe fans have stopped spewing that shit after being exposed time after time.

Notice how they haven't come to your aid?

[3ball]

you have to cover more of the floor, there is no paint camping


Right... These things make it harder for today's defenses..... but easier for the OFFENSE... Spacing and no paint-camping makes it easier for the OFFENSE dumbass.

Offensive players have it easier in today's game, including 3-point shooters - over 80% of today's 3-pointers are "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ ft), as described by NBA.com

Like you said - defenders must cover more ground, so scrambling and late rotations are standard, leading to open more open shots.. And the paint is wide open every play because the spacing and no paint-camping keeps it clear.





the 90's didn't defend the 3-pointer


Today's game defends it less.

FAR more 3-pointers are taken in today's game at far better efficiency, and over 80% of them are "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet), as described by NBA.com.

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o

I can post many more.

Defenders rotate and swarm the perimeter player, the lane is blocked so pick and rolls become more complicated along with driving limiting the perimeter player's options. Hand checking makes it more difficult to get open and get a good look compared to today.

So let's say Curry or whoever is running off screens to get open, he's gonna get HIT and grabbed as he tries to get open. They might go off from time to time, but their efficiency and energy will decline. Their shot opportunities will decline and coaches will change their offensive strategy eliminating some of the 3pt threat.

[diamenz]

you can't just base an argument off of cherry picked images and highlights. i think you're stuck in the moment of the modern nba and fail to see other eras from an objective and unbiased standpoint. and maybe we're old heads stuck in the past, but we're the ones who have had the luxury of seeing the contrast in eras over the years having lived through it, and your argument is shit.

you don't understand the substance of yesterday's game and seem to figure that if players aren't running around like fawns dosed up on crack that they aren't playing defense.

[jstern]

you can't just base an argument off of cherry picked images and highlights. i think you're stuck in the moment of the modern nba and fail to see other eras from an objective and unbiased standpoint. and maybe we're old heads stuck in the past, but we're the ones who have had the luxury of seeing the contrast in eras over the years having lived through it, and your argument is shit.

you don't understand the substance of yesterday's game and seem to figure that if players aren't running around like fawns dosed up on crack that they aren't playing defense.
I think that's a big problem with people in general. Particular when younger, they don't have perspective, and in their head everything revolves around their limited knowledge of things.