Wade was a disaster in the 2014 Finals

[DonDraper]

Don't know why people don't bring it up more when discussing his legacy.




He was only in his 11th season in the league, so it's not like he was old


He scored 10 points on 23% in Game 4


He scored 11 points on 33% in Game 5





All other games he statpadded once the score was >20 points difference










Just terrible, imo this performance locks him out of the top 25





Tell me a worse performance a player had in their prime.

[no pun intended]

Don't know why people don't bring it up more when discussing his legacy.




He was only in his 11th season in the league, so it's not like he was old


He scored 10 points on 23% in Game 4


He scored 11 points on 33% in Game 5





All other games he statpadded once the score was >20 points difference










Just terrible, imo this performance locks him out of the top 25





Tell me a worse performance a player had in their prime.
http://i.imgur.com/pSngI.jpg

[DonDraper]

Nope, LeBron averaged 18/7/7 on 47%


Wade was 15/4/4 on 44%



Thats a huge difference, especially if you take away all of Wade's points scored after the lead was >20 points



In fact, LeBron played better in 2011, than Wade did in both 2013 and 2014



Try again.

[LongLiveTheKing]

I was dissapointed in D-Wade's effort in those finals. He had a great game 1 and fell off after that. His defensive effort was pretty bad.

[Spurs m8]

Anyone who watched those Finals would know he was actually flat out ****ing awful, it was so ****ing awesome to watch!

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron's 2011 Finals were worse. The Heat had that series in the bag, it took his epic choke to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Wade was atrocious in '14, but even if he plays well the Spurs most likely still win, plus his drop in production wasn't as severe as LeBron's was

[GrapeApe]

32 years old is prime? :oldlol:

He was overweight, in part because of the maintenance plan that the organization insisted on. Wade has stated multiple times that he was not happy about it, and there were several games that he wanted to play in which the team forced him to sit out. I understand the logic of it, but in retrospect it was a horrible idea. He played well in the conference playoffs but looked completely gassed in the finals. It's not like the Heat would have won that series even if Wade put up his 20/5/5 on good efficiency that he had been averaging prior to the finals.

In 2011 however, the Heat absolutely win that series if Lebron showed up.

[PJR]

Nothing is worse than this: http://youtu.be/sFe8KUEQdn4


Nothing.

[no pun intended]

LeBron's 2011 Finals were worse. The Heat had that series in the bag, it took his epic choke to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Wade was atrocious in '14, but even if he plays well the Spurs most likely still win, plus his drop in production wasn't as severe as LeBron's was
Was just gonna respond with this. Plus stats don't tell the whole story obviously. The Heat's overall production heavily relied on LeBron. To have him shrink in the spotlight was more detrimental for the team than if the same happened to Wade.

But even if you wanna look at the stats, it says the same story anyway...

LeBron averaged 26/9/6 in the 2011 playoffs before the 2011 finals.

Wade average 19/4/4 in the 2014 playoffs before the 2014 finals.

[ClipperRevival]

You mean the same Wade that had to watch his minutes the entire season because his knees were screwed? Going by age, he wasn't that far removed from his prime but in reality, he was far removed from his prime. 2006-2009 Wade sh'ts on 2011 Wade in terms of explosiveness.

Of course this is nothing but an agenda driven thread so I wouldn't expect objectivity. You want objectivity? LeBron choked away the finals in 2011. Everyone knows this to be fact except his own fans.

[DonDraper]

32 years old is prime? :oldlol:

He was overweight, in part because of the maintenance plan that the organization insisted on. Wade has stated multiple times that he was not happy about it, and there were several games that he wanted to play in which the team forced him to sit out. I understand the logic of it, but in retrospect it was a horrible idea. He played well in the conference playoffs but looked completely gassed in the finals. It's not like the Heat would have won that series even if Wade put up his 20/5/5 on good efficiency that he had been averaging prior to the finals.

In 2011 however, the Heat absolutely win that series if Lebron showed up.

LeBron was in his prime in his 11th season

Kobe was in his prime in his 11th season

Jordan was in his prime in his 11th season



No excuses for Wade, that was his prime too.

[Wade's Rings]

Bron's '14 Finals were a disaster

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22/5/7/5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22/4/2/2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

Statpadded the whole series on top of his atrocious defense.

[Wade's Rings]

LeBron was in his prime in his 11th season

Kobe was in his prime in his 11th season

Jordan was in his prime in his 11th season



No excuses for Wade, that was his prime too.

Jordan was 34 in his 11th Season :oldlol:

You guys can't even troll right.

[Fallen Angel]

LeBron was in his prime in his 11th season

Kobe was in his prime in his 11th season

Jordan was in his prime in his 11th season



No excuses for Wade, that was his prime too.
you sound so stupid

Plenty of All-Time Greats have had their prime early and late in their careers.

[Fallen Angel]

Nobody with a brain considers Wade's time in the Big Three his prime years excluding his first year with Lebron and Bosh.

[DonDraper]

Jordan was 34 in his 11th Season :oldlol:

You guys can't even troll right.


He was 32-33 idiot, same age as 2014 Wade





And he averaged 30/6/5 that season, how was that not his Prime?

[Wade's Rings]

He was 32-33 idiot, same age as 2014 Wade





And he averaged 30/6/5 that season, how was that not his Prime?

His 11th FULL Season was the 1996-1997 Season when he turned 34. He was 34, how is that his Prime?

Since you avoided my post on Bron's '14 Finals, I'll post it again:

Bron's '14 Finals were a disaster

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22/5/7/5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22/4/2/2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

Statpadded the whole series on top of his atrocious defense.

[aj1987]

OP sucks **** on a regular basis, apparently.

[GrapeApe]

LeBron was in his prime in his 11th season

Kobe was in his prime in his 11th season

Jordan was in his prime in his 11th season



No excuses for Wade, that was his prime too.

This may come as a surprise to you, but human beings are different. Wade also has no cartilage in one of his knees. Are you saying you didn't see a physical difference between 2005-2012 Wade versus 2014 Wade? No one with brain claims that Wade was in his prime in 2014. Even Wade himself acknowledged that he could no longer physically do the things he once could.

[nba_55]

His 11th FULL Season was the 1996-1997 Season when he turned 34. He was 34, how is that his Prime?

Since you avoided my post on Bron's '14 Finals, I'll post it again:

Bron's '14 Finals were a disaster

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22/5/7/5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22/4/2/2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)


Statpadded the whole series on top of his atrocious defense.

What exactly is your definition of statpadding? From your post, the only game where it seems like he statpaded was game 4. Game 5, he scored 17 first quarter points, that's statpadding? Game 3 he had a great first quarter, that's statpadding? You seem confused in your definition of statpadding.

[DonDraper]

What exactly is your definition of statpadding? From your post, the only game where it seems like he statpaded was game 4. Game 5, he scored 17 first quarter points, that's statpadding? Game 3 he had a great first quarter, that's statpadding? You seem confused in your definition of statpadding.

Wade's Rings* has been exposed as a troll many times before, don't bother with him.

[zbott]

Anyway ... would not have mattered if Wade had a better series ... Spurs were locked in and on a mission ... what a series - what a time ...

[GrapeApe]

Wade's Rings* has been exposed as a troll many times before, don't bother with him.

Say's the guy who claims 2014 Wade was in his prime. :oldlol:

If you think 19/5/5/1.5/.5 is prime Wade, you obviously didn't watch basketball before 2014.

[Wade's Rings]

What exactly is your definition of statpadding? From your post, the only game where it seems like he statpaded was game 4. Game 5, he scored 17 first quarter points, that's statpadding? Game 3 he had a great first quarter, that's statpadding? You seem confused in your definition of statpadding.

I left out this piece of information: Games 3-5 Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+. Game 3 he only scored after the 1st Quarter when the Game was a blowout. The Game was within 9 and he did nothing until the Spurs were up 15+.

[Wade's Rings]

Wade's Rings* has been exposed as a troll many times before, don't bother with him.

Is that why you're avoiding my post? :oldlol:

[DonDraper]

Is that why you're avoiding my post? :oldlol:


Avoided what? :oldlol:



You still didn't explain why a prime Wade scored 14/5/3 and 10, 11 points in the last two games

[DoctorP]

He was shit and he knew it.

[Wade's Rings]

Avoided what? :oldlol:



You still didn't explain why a prime Wade scored 14/5/3 and 10, 11 points in the last two games

Wade wasn't Prime so your question is already invalid. Now adress why Bron was so awful in those Finals.

[DonDraper]

Wade wasn't Prime so your question is already invalid. Now adress why Bron was so awful in those Finals.


And LeBron scored 35 and carried Wade to a win in Game 2


LeBron averaged 28/8/4 on 68% TS



When LeBron was out the Heat were -98



So your question is invalid

[imdaman99]

The difference is that in 2014, Heat were not beating the Spurs even if Wade had a great Finals. Spurs were THAT much better.
In 2011, all Lebron had to do was be existent or leave a mark on the games and the Heat would have won :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

And LeBron scored 35 and carried Wade to a win in Game 2


LeBron averaged 28/8/4 on 68% TS



When LeBron was out the Heat were -98



So your question is invalid

Games 3-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

So Bron statpadded, failed to be aggressive, and played shit defense :applause:

[3ball]

Jordan won with less help in 1998.. :confusedshrug: ... Pippen's stats were the same as Wade's, and Rodman averaged 3/8 (he wasn't even a starter).. Guys like Kerr and Harper averaged 3-4 ppg on 30%.

Regarding Lebron's performance in 2014 Finals - Lebron's poor defense allowed Kawhi to get 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL did, then the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were..

And the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors).

MJ would've won the 2014 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player become > Duncan, and he would've had the necessary offensive aggression (30+ shot attempts was not a problem).

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan won with less help in 1998.. :confusedshrug: ... Pippen's stats were the same as Wade's, and Rodman averaged 3/8 (he wasn't even a starter).. Guys like Kerr and Harper averaged 3-4 ppg on 30%.

Regarding Lebron's performance in 2014 Finals - Lebron's poor defense allowed Kawhi to get 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL did, then the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were..

And the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors).

MJ would've won the 2014 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player become > Duncan, and he would have the necessary offensive aggression (30+ shot attempts was not a problem).

Pippen was getting FMVP consideration through the first 4 games before getting injured. He was EASILY better than Wade, who played like absolute trash

[3ball]

.............Gm 1.................. Gm 2.............. Gm 3.................. Gm 4

MJ... 33/2/3 on 45%.... 37/5/3 on 42%.... 24/3/2 on 50%.... 34/8/2 on 44%

PIP.. 21/8/1 on 36%.... 21/6/4 on 53%... 10/4/4 on 50%..... 28/9/5 on 50%


JORDAN THRU 4 GAMES:. 32-5-3 on 45%
PIPPEN. THRU 4 GAMES:. 20-7-4 on 47%


Pippen was getting FMVP consideration through the first 4 games before getting injured. He was EASILY better than Wade, who played like absolute trash


^^^ This is an often-repeated lie - you didn't watch the series - you just did a google search 20 years after the fact and found 4-5 articles out of thousands that said Pippen might deserve consideration.

But other than a few reporters that decided to spice up their life by basically trolling, no one thought for 1 second about Pippen for MVP.

If you had watched the series, you'd know this - but instead, you're just an ignorant fan that is doing google searches 20 years after the fact.

[miggyme1]

11th season,4th str8 year going all the way to the finals,came into the league as one of the "older"players in his draft at 21, knee problems ( worst injury in nba considering all the cutting,jumping etc), never been a great jump shooter (spurs make you beat them by taking jumpers), was playing against a spurs team that literally everyone knew would be back in the finals considering the heartbreaking finals loss the year before.


Not trying to excuse wade but even if he was putting up his season averages they still wasn't going to beat the spurs....so what??? play well and still lose as long as you putting up the numbers we accustomed to?? does it change anything??? you still lose.....

[GrapeApe]

^^^ This is an often-repeated lie - you didn't watch the series - you just did a google search 20 years after the fact and found 4-5 articles out of thousands that said Pippen might deserve consideration.

But other than a few reporters that decided to spice up their life by basically trolling, no one thought for 1 second about Pippen for MVP.

If you had watched the series, you'd know this - but instead, you're just an ignorant fan that is doing google searches 20 years after the fact.

Pippen WAS being mentioned as a FMVP candidate. That is a fact. Through 4 games he was more efficient, had more assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, and was better defensively. Even with the injury he still ended up leading the Bulls in assists and averaged 7 rebounds.

Pippen in 1998 was EASILY better than Wade in 2014, and this is coming from a huge Wade fan. There is zero debate. Wade was dreadful and played the worst playoff series if his career. He's be the first to admit it.

Oh, and I like how you conveniently failed to mention Kukoc in your previous post. He had a strong series, averaging 15/5/3/1/1 on 50%. Better than Bosh, and Pippen's numbers were clearly better than Wade's btw.

[Black and White]

Nobody brought up LeBrons 8 point game in the finals?

[3ball]

Through 4 games


.............Gm 1.................. Gm 2.............. Gm 3.................. Gm 4

MJ... 33/2/3 on 45%.... 37/5/3 on 42%.... 24/3/2 on 50%.... 34/8/2 on 44%

PIP.. 21/8/1 on 36%.... 21/6/4 on 53%... 10/4/4 on 50%..... 28/9/5 on 50%


JORDAN THRU 4 GAMES:. 32-5-3 on 45%
PIPPEN. THRU 4 GAMES:. 20-7-4 on 47%


So keep dreaming... :sleeping

There's never been a time where one guy drops 32 ppg and the other guy drops 20, and the 20 ppg guy is considered for MVP... That's a joke.





Pippen WAS being mentioned as a FMVP candidate. That is a fact.


Almost no one considered Pippen for MVP thru 4 games.. There were thousands of articles written through Game 4, but the only evidence you have is 2-3 articles that were written in a trolling manner - one of them was literally titled "Tired of MJ being MVP?... How about Pippen?"

That's an obvious joke considering the massive statistical gap between MJ and Pippen thru 4 games... And remember, we're only talking about thru 4 games - by the end of the series, no one remembered Pippen was on the team.





Oh, and I like how you conveniently failed to mention Kukoc in your previous post. He had a strong series, averaging 15/5/3/1/1 on 50%.


Kukoc isn't HALF the player that Bosh is on either side of the ball, so it doesn't matter if his stats look similar... Bosh is a 10-time all-star whose stats were cratered by Lebron - everyone knows this - but Lebron still had ACCESS to a 10-time all-star caliber player.

Otoh, Kukoc was a bench player and defensive liability that was asked to start because Rodman was massive aids (3/8 averages for the series).





Kukoc's stats were equal to Bosh, and Pippen's numbers were better than Wade's btw.


1) Bosh > Kukoc obviously

2) Pippen = Wade because Pippen was hurt and disappeared in the final 2 games, so their stats end up being equal (15 ppg on 41%)

3) Ray Allen's 10 ppg and Rashard Lewis' 9 ppg > Rodman's 3 ppg and Kerr/Harper's 4 ppg on 30%.


That's it... :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

.............Gm 1.................. Gm 2.............. Gm 3.................. Gm 4

MJ... 33/2/3 on 45%.... 37/5/3 on 42%.... 24/3/2 on 50%.... 34/8/2 on 44%

PIP.. 21/8/1 on 36%.... 21/6/4 on 53%... 10/4/4 on 50%..... 28/9/5 on 50%


JORDAN THRU 4 GAMES:. 32-5-3 on 45%
PIPPEN. THRU 4 GAMES:. 20-7-4 on 47%


So keep dreaming... :sleeping

There's never been a time where one guy drops 32 ppg and the other guy drops 20, and the 20 ppg guy is considered for MVP... That's a joke.



Almost no one considered Pippen for MVP thru 4 games.. There were thousands of articles written through Game 4, but the only evidence you have is 2-3 articles that were written in a trolling manner - one of them was literally titled "Tired of MJ being MVP?... How about Pippen?"

That's an obvious joke considering the massive statistical gap between MJ and Pippen thru 4 games... And remember, we're only talking about thru 4 games - by the end of the series, no one remembered Pippen was on the team.



Kukoc isn't HALF the player that Bosh is on either side of the ball, so it doesn't matter if his stats look similar... Bosh is a 10-time all-star whose stats were cratered by Lebron - everyone knows this - but Lebron still had ACCESS to a 10-time all-star caliber player.

Otoh, Kukoc was a bench player and defensive liability that was asked to start because Rodman was massive aids (3/8 averages for the series).



1) Bosh > Kukoc obviously

2) Pippen = Wade because Pippen was hurt and disappeared in the final 2 games, so their stats end up being equal (15 ppg on 41%)

3) Ray Allen's 10 ppg and Rashard Lewis' 9 ppg > Rodman's 3 ppg and Kerr/Harper's 4 ppg on 30%.


That's it... :confusedshrug:

It definitely shows you didn't watch this series (which you've admitted to not watching a game in 5 years). There's simply no way anyone could prop up Wade, Bosh or any Heat player from that series, literally none of them played well. Saying Pippen was equal to Wade simply based on their stats is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this site

[3ball]

Saying Pippen was equal to Wade simply based on their stats is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this site


Stop lying - I said Pippen was equal to Wade because Pippen was hurt and disappeared in the final 2 games.

Wade never disappeared for 2 games and forced Lebron to get 45 points plus the greatest clutch the NBA has ever seen...

But Pippen did this to Jordan - he forced Jordan to go into the phone booth.





Wade, Bosh or any Heat player none of them played well.



That's because the predictable, play-finishing role that Lebron reduced them to could no longer succeed against the best playoff teams.

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers - he reduces their APG (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

And again - the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.

[GrapeApe]

.............Gm 1.................. Gm 2.............. Gm 3.................. Gm 4

MJ... 33/2/3 on 45%.... 37/5/3 on 42%.... 24/3/2 on 50%.... 34/8/2 on 44%

PIP.. 21/8/1 on 36%.... 21/6/4 on 53%... 10/4/4 on 50%..... 28/9/5 on 50%


JORDAN THRU 4 GAMES:. 32-5-3 on 45%
PIPPEN. THRU 4 GAMES:. 20-7-4 on 47%


So keep dreaming... :sleeping

There's never been a time where one guy drops 32 ppg and the other guy drops 20, and the 20 ppg guy is considered for MVP... That's a joke.



Almost no one considered Pippen for MVP thru 4 games.. There were thousands of articles written through Game 4, but the only evidence you have is 2-3 articles that were written in a trolling manner - one of them was literally titled "Tired of MJ being MVP?... How about Pippen?"

That's an obvious joke considering the massive statistical gap between MJ and Pippen thru 4 games... And remember, we're only talking about thru 4 games - by the end of the series, no one remembered Pippen was on the team.



Kukoc isn't HALF the player that Bosh is on either side of the ball, so it doesn't matter if his stats look similar... Bosh is a 10-time all-star whose stats were cratered by Lebron - everyone knows this - but Lebron still had ACCESS to a 10-time all-star caliber player.

Otoh, Kukoc was a bench player and defensive liability that was asked to start because Rodman was massive aids (3/8 averages for the series).



1) Bosh > Kukoc obviously

2) Pippen = Wade because Pippen was hurt and disappeared in the final 2 games, so their stats end up being equal (15 ppg on 41%)

3) Ray Allen's 10 ppg and Rashard Lewis' 9 ppg > Rodman's 3 ppg and Kerr/Harper's 4 ppg on 30%.


That's it... :confusedshrug:

Pippen: 16/7/5/1.7/0.8 on 50%TS
Wade: 15/4/3/1.6/0.0 on 50%TS

Their stats were clearly NOT equal, especially when you factor in pace. The pace in the 2014 finals was 87.4 compared to 82.0 in 1998. Pace adjusted, Pippen's production was significantly better. You keep talking about offensive production when in reality the Bulls won because of their defense, which was anchored by Pippen. They held the Jazz to an ORtg of 96.1. The Spurs by comparison had an ORtg of 120.8. Aside from being worse statistically, Wade was a MUCH worse defender.

The Heat got destroyed by the Spurs because of their defense, not their offense. All of that garbage about Lebron hurting his teammates' stats is completely irrelevant. You aren't winning a damn thing when you let the opponent have that kind of offensive efficiency.

It's also funny how you talk about a big scoring gap precluding a player being in the FMVP discussion when just last season Iggy won FMVP scoring 10 ppg less than Curry.

[Labissiere]

Wade was on the downslope of his career and dealing with injuries. What are LeBron's excuses for 2011?

[Gileraracer]

equals Lebrons 2011 POs

[JohnMax]

Anyone who watched those Finals would know he was actually flat out ****ing awful, it was so ****ing awesome to watch!

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[JohnMax]

LeBron's 2011 Finals were worse. The Heat had that series in the bag, it took his epic choke to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Wade was atrocious in '14, but even if he plays well the Spurs most likely still win, plus his drop in production wasn't as severe as LeBron's was


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[JohnMax]

OP sucks **** on a regular basis, apparently.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[JohnMax]

32 years old is prime? :oldlol:

He was overweight, in part because of the maintenance plan that the organization insisted on. Wade has stated multiple times that he was not happy about it, and there were several games that he wanted to play in which the team forced him to sit out. I understand the logic of it, but in retrospect it was a horrible idea. He played well in the conference playoffs but looked completely gassed in the finals. It's not like the Heat would have won that series even if Wade put up his 20/5/5 on good efficiency that he had been averaging prior to the finals.

In 2011 however, the Heat absolutely win that series if Lebron showed up.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[JohnMax]

Bron's '14 Finals were a disaster

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22/5/7/5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22/4/2/2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

Statpadded the whole series on top of his atrocious defense.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[JohnMax]

Pippen was getting FMVP consideration through the first 4 games before getting injured. He was EASILY better than Wade, who played like absolute trash


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000181763506/8eb717d4253dc896def467911c7dc773_400x400.png

[3ball]

You keep talking about offensive production when in reality the Bulls won because of their defense


The Bulls won because of their defense AND Jordan scoring the highest proportion of team points in Finals history - he averaged 34 of his teams 88 ppg.

Without MJ's goat scoring CARRYING the Bulls on offense, the Bulls get destroyed - they aren't even a team without Jordan carrying the offense.





the Bulls won because of their defense


Pippen allowed Byron Russell to achieve the same stats he got in regular season (9 ppg on 42%).

Otoh, Jordan held Jeff Hornacek (former all-star) to 10 ppg on 41%, which is down from 14 ppg on 48% in regular season - AND he guarded John Stockton frequently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), and held him to 10 ppg on 49% (down from 12 ppg on 53% in regular season).

So it was JORDAN that gave his team a few extra points advantage by holding Hornacek and Stockton down, not Pippen - Pippen didn't hold Russell below his regular season stats like Jordan did to his assignments.





The Heat got destroyed by the Spurs because of their defense, not their offense.


Wow, you're blind to the facts - the Heat's bad defense started with LEBRON - as the leader, Lebron sets the defensive tone and intensity level for the team.

Lebron's poor effort in the Finals allowed Kawhi to get 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL did, then the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were..

And the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors).

MJ would've won the 2014 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player become > Duncan, and he would've had the necessary offensive aggression (30+ shot attempts) to attract defensive attention away from teammates.





It's also funny how you talk about a big scoring gap precluding a player being in the FMVP discussion when just last season Iggy won FMVP scoring 10 ppg less than Curry.


That's because Iggy guarded Lebron the entire series - that's the equivalent of Pippen guarding Karl Malone, which didn't happen.

Pippen guarded Byron Russell and let Byron get the same stats he got in regular season, while MJ guarded former all-star Jeff Hornacek, and held him to 10 ppg on 41% (down from 14 ppg on 48% in regular season)

Jordan also guarded Stockton frequently, and helped hold him to 10 ppg on 49% (down from 12 ppg on 53% in regular season).
.

[greatest-ever]

Don't know why people don't bring it up more when discussing his legacy.




He was only in his 11th season in the league, so it's not like he was old


He scored 10 points on 23% in Game 4


He scored 11 points on 33% in Game 5





All other games he statpadded once the score was >20 points difference










Just terrible, imo this performance locks him out of the top 25





Tell me a worse performance a player had in their prime.
You must be smoking drugs if you think Wade was in his prime in 2014, i mean he played about what 54 games in the regular season because of nagging injuries here and there? Anyway, i don't see it as a negative to his legacy per say, your legacy is already set when you're a 3 time champion and proved you could win as the man.

[GrapeApe]

The Bulls won because of their defense AND Jordan scoring the highest proportion of team points in Finals history - he averaged 34 of his teams 88 ppg.

Without MJ's goat scoring CARRYING the Bulls on offense, the Bulls get destroyed - they aren't even a team without Jordan carrying the offense.



Pippen allowed Byron Russell to achieve the same stats he got in regular season (9 ppg on 42%).

Otoh, Jordan held Jeff Hornacek (former all-star) to 10 ppg on 41%, which is down from 14 ppg on 48% in regular season - AND he guarded John Stockton frequently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), and held him to 10 ppg on 49% (down from 12 ppg on 53% in regular season).

So it was JORDAN that gave his team a few extra points advantage by holding Hornacek and Stockton down, not Pippen - Pippen didn't hold Russell below his regular season stats like Jordan did to his assignments.



Wow, you're blind to the facts - the Heat's bad defense started with LEBRON - as the leader, Lebron sets the defensive tone and intensity level for the team.

Lebron's poor effort in the Finals allowed Kawhi to get 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL did, then the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were..

And the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors).

MJ would've won the 2014 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player become > Duncan, and he would've had the necessary offensive aggression (30+ shot attempts) to attract defensive attention away from teammates.



That's because Iggy guarded Lebron the entire series - that's the equivalent of Pippen guarding Karl Malone, which didn't happen.

Pippen guarded Byron Russell and let Byron get the same stats he got in regular season, while MJ guarded former all-star Jeff Hornacek, and held him to 10 ppg on 41% (down from 14 ppg on 48% in regular season)

Jordan also guarded Stockton frequently, and helped hold him to 10 ppg on 49% (down from 12 ppg on 53% in regular season).
.

The Heat's poor defense had NOTHING to do with Lebron "not setting the tone". Their entire defensive concept was fundamentally flawed, and Spo made zero adjustments. It was a system failure, and anyone who understands the game knows that that the Heat defensive philosophy was antiquated in the modern league. The cracks were showing all season, and the Spurs finally exposed it. You literally have no clue what you're talking about.

As for the Jordan/Pippen stuff, you're a fool if you don't think Pippen had more defensive impact in 1998 than Jordan. If you asked Phil Jackson or Jerry Sloan they would say the same thing.

[3ball]

The Heat's poor defense had NOTHING to do with Lebron "not setting the tone".


Sure it did.. If the team leader is playing horrible defense, that permeates the team - Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan would tell you this.

Also, the Spurs ONLY played amazing against the Heat - they ONLY had crazy ORtg vs. the Heat.

OKC, DAL and POR held the Spurs to reasonable ORtg's - not coincidentally, they also held Kawhi to his regular stats - about 12 ppg on 45%.

Otoh, Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.. :confusedshrug:





anyone who understands the game knows that that the Heat defensive philosophy was antiquated in the modern league.


This is pure bullshit - Dallas and Portland were considered HORRIBLE defensive teams - among the worst in the league - yet they held the Spurs and Kawhi down..

Otoh, Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.. :confusedshrug:





As for the Jordan/Pippen stuff, you're a fool if you don't think Pippen had more defensive impact in 1998 than Jordan.


Pippen was broken down in the last 2 games of the Finals and barely functioning - Jordan had to carry the team on both ends to closeout the series.

Btw, nearly ALL championships teams have great defense - defense often cancels out when comparing championship teams.. Otoh, far LESS championship teams have a great offense, so offense is the far greater differentiating factor - the difference between the Bad Boys and the Bulls is the Bulls had a vastly superior OFFENSE, due to the goat offensive player.

And it's easy to measure Jordan's GOAT offensive impact - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
.

[knicksman]

Games 3-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

So Bron statpadded, failed to be aggressive, and played shit defense :applause:


Bran is a fraud. Not a surprise most players dont respect him:lol

[DonDraper]

Bran is a fraud. Not a surprise most players dont respect him:lol

Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while wade provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, rebounding. So the winners only need role players to win while wade needs superstars but still only manage 3/5. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg.

[knicksman]

Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while wade provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, rebounding. So the winners only need role players to win while wade needs superstars but still only manage 3/5. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg.

2/6:sleeping

[knicksman]

if bran isnt respected, then how much for his stans. I bet posters like lebron23, dubeta, pauk are whipping boys in real life too.

[GrapeApe]

Sure it did.. If the team leader is playing horrible defense, that permeates the team - Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan would tell you this.

Also, the Spurs ONLY played amazing against the Heat - they ONLY had crazy ORtg vs. the Heat.

OKC, DAL and POR held the Spurs to reasonable ORtg's - not coincidentally, they also held Kawhi to his regular stats - about 12 ppg on 45%.

Otoh, Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.. :confusedshrug:



This is pure bullshit - Dallas and Portland were considered HORRIBLE defensive teams - among the worst in the league - yet they held the Spurs and Kawhi down..

Otoh, Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.. :confusedshrug:

You just unwittingly strengthened my point. :oldlol:

Of course the Spurs only played that well against the Heat. That's my entire point. They played historically well offensively because of the Heat's flawed defensive system and Spo's lack of adjustment to what the Spurs were doing. No other team that the Spurs faced in the playoffs had the Heat's defensive style and philosophy. NONE. It is widely known (especially among Heat fans who hated it) that Heat's defensive system had been falling apart dating back to the prior season. You wouldn't know that because you are clueless. You have zero understanding of the Heat's defense so you continue to spout the same cliched nonsense over and over.

You are making it out to be some kind of one on one issue between Lebron and Leonard, which is patently false. Leonard just happened to be the prime beneficiary of the fact that the ball moves faster than players. Ball movement, smart passing, and flawless execution is what destroyed the Heat, not any individual battles. One on one defense had almost NOTHING to do with the Heat losing that series.

[Blue&Orange]

Games 3-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%.

But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wades 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game according to the ESPN article MVP Leonard Does it All (and according to the same article Leonard shot 65% on LeBron for the series)

So Bron statpadded, failed to be aggressive, and played shit defense :applause:
:applause: :applause: :applause:


Game 3
Lebron -21
Wade -9

Game 4
Lebron -21
Wade -9

Game 5
Lebron -16
Wade -10

Dat Lebron's +\- :roll:

And this while statpadding against Matt Bonner when Wade and Spurs starters were on the bench. Now you tell me this was Wade with horrible defense? The question then is how awful was Lebron then?


Another finals fail.

[GrapeApe]

Winners provide the most important/hardest skill to the table which is tough shot creation, while wade provides redundant skills that can be supplied easily by other players aka passing, defense, rebounding. So the winners only need role players to win while wade needs superstars but still only manage 3/5. This teammate excuse is laughable at best. Magic won with old ass kareem scoring only 15ppg.

And Wade won with old ass Shaq averaging 13 ppg.

Tough shot creation? Redundant skills? Wade is one of the best slashers and finishers of all time. He consistently made more ridiculously difficult finishes at the rim than anyone but Jordan.

[3ball]

They played historically well offensively because of the Heat's flawed defensive system


Except your making it up - the heat were a FAR better defensive team than DAL and POR, who were 2 of the worst defensive teams in the league.'

Yet they still held Kawhi down - so Lebron has no excuse for NOT holding Kawhi down.

Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.

Lebron let Kawhi go off, while no other team did - those are the facts.

[coin24]

if bran isnt respected, then how much for his stans. I bet posters like lebron23, dubeta, pauk are whipping boys in real life too.


Simon is like life's toilet, he just gets shat on from all angles..

[GrapeApe]

Except your making it up - the heat were a FAR better defensive team than DAL and POR, who were 2 of the worst defensive teams in the league.'

Yet they still held Kawhi down - so Lebron has no excuse for NOT holding Kawhi down.

Lebron let Kawhi go OFF and be the best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or Portland.

Lebron let Kawhi go off, while no other team did - those are the facts.

You just ignored everything I said. Typical. Do you understand ANYTHING about styles, strategy, and match ups? The Heat's defensive style played right into the Spurs' hands. Other teams may have been worse defensively than the Heat, but their styles matched up better against the Spurs than the style of the Heat. Do you seriously not understand that or are you just playing dumb?

Matchups and styles are everything. Why do you think great teams occassionally struggle against certain lesser teams? (Dallas vs GS in 2007 for example). The Heat's defense worked against a lot of teams, but not against a ball movement team like the Spurs. Again, it had NOTHING to do with Lebron vs Leonard or any individual match ups. How are you not getting this?

You know what? Explain the Heat's defensive style and philosophy. Please. Since you're such an expert it should be no problem.

[3ball]

Explain the Heat's defensive style and philosophy.


Their philosophy has nothing to do with Lebron letting Kawhi go OFF.

Lebron let Kawhi be best offensive player for the Spurs, which unlocked their GOAT chemistry and ORtg that we didn't see against OKC, DAL or POR.





Since you're such an expert


You're desperate... Accept the facts - Lebron let Kawhi get 18 ppg on 61%.. If he held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45% like OKC and DAL did, then the Heat would've been competitive like those teams were..

And the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors).

MJ would've won the 2014 Finals because his defense wouldn't let a role player become > Duncan, and he would've had the necessary offensive aggression (30+ shot attempts) to attract defensive attention away from teammates.