Longest 20 point streaks in NBA history

[dunksby]

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In case imgur doesn't work:

1- Wilt: 80
2- Oscar: 79
3- Hawkins: 76
4- Jordan: 72
5- Kareem: 71
6- Kareem: 70
7- Jordan: 69
8- Issel: 63
8- Kobe: 63
9- McAdoo: 57
9- AI: 57
10- KD 56
10- KD 56
11- KD 55

[LAZERUSS]

http://i.imgur.com/xI8btj0.png
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http://i.imgur.com/tGczlGi.png
http://i.imgur.com/stY34nR.png
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http://i.imgur.com/53xAVF9.png
http://i.imgur.com/8UL2gvv.png
http://i.imgur.com/hCUp1QI.png
http://i.imgur.com/c3kkqol.png
http://i.imgur.com/UlOb9cA.png
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In case imgur doesn't work:

1- Wilt: 80
2- Oscar: 79
3- Hawkins: 76
4- Jordan: 72
5- Kareem: 71
6- Kareem: 70
7- Jordan: 69
8- Issel: 63
8- Kobe: 63
9- McAdoo: 57
9- AI: 57
10- KD 56
10- KD 56
11- KD 55

Chamberlain had 126 in a row. And had he not been ejected in the first quarter in his 127th, he would have continued it to 147. And if you include his playoffs, it would have been 141.

[Uncle Drew]

Chamberlain had 126 in a row. And had he not been ejected in the first quarter in his 127th, he would have continued it to 147. And if you include his playoffs, it would have been 141.
Luckily for Wilt they didn't include playoffs, otherwise his streaks would end at 82 every time.

[LAZERUSS]

Luckily for Wilt they didn't include playoffs, otherwise his streaks would end at 82 every time.

I INCLUDED his playoffs. 126 in the regular season, and with his playoff games, that streak went to 141.

BTW, Wilt had 37 20+ point games in his first 38 playoff games, and had 51 in his first 54. Most of them 30+.

[LAZERUSS]

In his "scoring" prime, and counting the post-season, Chamberlain played in 606 games...and had a total of 17 games of less than 20 points.

Oh, and for the bashers...in his first 52 playoff games (again, in his scoring prime)... 49 of 20+, and 35 of those were 30+.

[Jasper]

what no CURRY ....

I guess after a season and a 1/2 he can't be included with the greats of all time. :lol :roll: :lol :roll: :lol

[dunksby]

Chamberlain had 126 in a row. And had he not been ejected in the first quarter in his 127th, he would have continued it to 147. And if you include his playoffs, it would have been 141.
Are you capable of appreciating anything? Sad thing is you are relatively young but behave like an 80-year old bitter grandpa who doesn't remember the last time he got laid.

[dunksby]

what no CURRY ....

I guess after a season and a 1/2 he can't be included with the greats of all time. :lol :roll: :lol :roll: :lol
Curry's longest streak has been 14 so far (2015-10-27 2015-11-20).

[Psileas]

I INCLUDED his playoffs. 126 in the regular season, and with his playoff games, that streak went to 141.

BTW, Wilt had 37 20+ point games in his first 38 playoff games, and had 51 in his first 54. Most of them 30+.

Talk about backfire. :oldlol:

Also missing is Wilt's (and NBA's in general) 2nd best performance of 92.
My guess is he only included single seasons and only since 1964 (for bbr reasons...). So, Wilt's 1962-1963 streak altogether is the one missing and the "80" thing has to do with the 1964 season, when Wilt also had 20+ in every single game.

[Psileas]

Btw, is #3 Connie Hawkins in the ABA? Cool, didn't know he had that long a streak (his 30+ ppg season was cut short).

[kshutts1]

Chamberlain had 126 in a row. And had he not been ejected in the first quarter in his 127th, he would have continued it to 147. And if you include his playoffs, it would have been 141.
I thought one of Wilt's "myths" was that he was never disqualified from a game. Can you shed some light on this apparent discrepancy?

[Psileas]

I thought one of Wilt's "myths" was that he was never disqualified from a game. Can you shed some light on this apparent discrepancy?

Wilt did get ejected in that game due to techs, but never disqualified due to fouling.

[kshutts1]

Wilt did get ejected in that game due to techs, but never disqualified due to fouling.
Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the verbage was just misleading.

[LAZERUSS]

Are you capable of appreciating anything? Sad thing is you are relatively young but behave like an 80-year old bitter grandpa who doesn't remember the last time he got laid.

?????

So if I correct an obvious mistake (or maybe falsehood), I don't appreciate your post?

I guess when ESPN makes some ridiculous claim like Jordan had the longest 25+ point streak then we are just supposed to accept it as fact?

If your intent was to prop up Wilt...great. He certainly deserves it.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt did get ejected in that game due to techs, but never disqualified due to fouling.

That, and a couple of injuries as well, derailed some of his streaks.

Of course, had Chamberlain known that some 30-40-50 years later that a player would break his career scoring average mark, or break his PER record, or come close to his FG% record, he would have easily put them so far out of reach that no one would ever have challenged them.

[Psileas]

That, and a couple of injuries as well, derailed some of his streaks.

Of course, had Chamberlain known that some 30-40-50 years later that a player would break his career scoring average mark, or break his PER record, or come close to his FG% record, he would have easily put them so far out of reach that no one would ever have challenged them.

Yeah, it's crazy, e.g, that the guy who holds the record for most consecutive 20, 30, 40, etc, point games holds none of the top 20 records when it comes to double figure scoring streaks. The reasons being:

1960: Getting injured in mouth and leaving early
1963: 3 consecutive techs (!) due to him complaining on refs easily blowing the whistle on his teammates
1965: Getting nose broken, leaving early

Take away these unfortunate circumstances and have him play normal minutes instead of 6, 8, etc, and we're talking about a 600+ game streak. Most impressively, each of these games would almost certainly also be a double-double.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, it's crazy, e.g, that the guy who holds the record for most consecutive 20, 30, 40, etc, point games holds none of the top 20 records when it comes to double figure scoring streaks. The reasons being:

1960: Getting injured in mouth and leaving early
1963: 3 consecutive techs (!) due to him complaining on refs easily blowing the whistle on his teammates
1965: Getting nose broken, leaving early

Take away these unfortunate circumstances and have him play normal minutes instead of 6, 8, etc, and we're talking about a 600+ game streak. Most impressively, each of these games would almost certainly also be a double-double.

The three techs was a weird one. I believe even Pollack couldn't understand it.


As for his records that have been surpassed, or may be surpassed...

it is much easier chasing records, than establishing them. When Wilt set his career ppg mark, no one was even remotely close (well, Kareem was, but in only his 4th season.). Same with his PER. And he shattered his .540 FG% mark twice by huge margins. Even I believed that no one would approach the .727 mark. When he retired I believe the next best mark was KAJ's .577.

[LAZERUSS]

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400489956

Durant would go on to eclipse Jordan's "record" of 40, with a 41 game streak.

Of course, no mention of the ACTUAL record of 106 straight by Chamberlain.

[dunksby]

?????

So if I correct an obvious mistake (or maybe falsehood), I don't appreciate your post?

I guess when ESPN makes some ridiculous claim like Jordan had the longest 25+ point streak then we are just supposed to accept it as fact?

If your intent was to prop up Wilt...great. He certainly deserves it.
BBR doesn't have the data before 64, there is no ill-intent here, if you are so angry about my representation go post a new thread using your sources. But I doubt you would, because it would mean you would have to spend time researching players other than Wilt.

[dunksby]

Btw, is #3 Connie Hawkins in the ABA? Cool, didn't know he had that long a streak (his 30+ ppg season was cut short).
Yes, I figured it was too good to leave out.

[Proctor]

That, and a couple of injuries as well, derailed some of his streaks.

Of course, had Chamberlain known that some 30-40-50 years later that a player would break his career scoring average mark, or break his PER record, or come close to his FG% record, he would have easily put them so far out of reach that no one would ever have challenged them.
Can you post the interview where he made this claim to you?

[lucky001]

Oh, this one is absolutely true. Of all the goat candidates, and maybe the top ten or more, wilt is the most obsessed with numbers. Now many legends, especially in their younger days, took a close interest in their stats.

There are the stories of magic and bird reading the papers, making sure to top each other's box score. Or bird asking what's the most points scored in a building, then jacking shots to top it. There's the story of jordan checking with the assistant coaches to see if he needs 2 more boards or assists to keep his triple double streak going.

Mixed among the stories of 20k and mountain lions are stories of wilt displaying this boneheaded mentality. Fresh after leading one of the goat teams to the title, wilt decides to lead the league in assists, because people say he doesn't pass enough.

He proceeds to pad his assists, rondo style, through a whole season. Passing up layups. Over passing. He goes so far as to pass the ball to his team mates who catch and shoot, rather than the ones who would dribble once or twice, so he can get his dimes.Over an entire season. That's ricky davis andre blatche triple double hunting level jackassery coming from a legend.

Let's say shaq decided to do the same thing after his 15-1 postseason. Freezing out kobe, just passing to fish and Harper, passing up dunks etc. Well, he still wouldn't lead the league in assists, but kobe would've killed someone before the all star break. Just totally wreck a championship team's chemistry.

Wilt would've been the undisputed goat, if he wasn't a damn fool.

[LAZERUSS]

Oh, this one is absolutely true. Of all the goat candidates, and maybe the top ten or more, wilt is the most obsessed with numbers. Now many legends, especially in their younger days, took a close interest in their stats.

There are the stories of magic and bird reading the papers, making sure to top each other's box score. Or bird asking what's the most points scored in a building, then jacking shots to top it. There's the story of jordan checking with the assistant coaches to see if he needs 2 more boards or assists to keep his triple double streak going.

Mixed among the stories of 20k and mountain lions are stories of wilt displaying this boneheaded mentality. Fresh after leading one of the goat teams to the title, wilt decides to lead the league in assists, because people say he doesn't pass enough.

He proceeds to pad his assists, rondo style, through a whole season. Passing up layups. Over passing. He goes so far as to pass the ball to his team mates who catch and shoot, rather than the ones who would dribble once or twice, so he can get his dimes.Over an entire season. That's ricky davis andre blatche triple double hunting level jackassery coming from a legend.

Let's say shaq decided to do the same thing after his 15-1 postseason. Freezing out kobe, just passing to fish and Harper, passing up dunks etc. Well, he still wouldn't lead the league in assists, but kobe would've killed someone before the all star break. Just totally wreck a championship team's chemistry.

Wilt would've been the undisputed goat, if he wasn't a damn fool.

Yep..."totally wrecked a championship team's chemistry" alright.

To the point that they ran away with the best record in the league (62-20 to the next best mark of 54-28.)

Of course, we saw what all that passing did to his teammates (and himself) in the post-season. Those teammates were so worn out from the extra shots that they were wiped out by injuries.

Here is a little research...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

Again...who would have realized that leading the league in assists would have led to such physical breakdowns in the post-season?

[Akrazotile]

--------------------------------------------------
In case imgur doesn't work:

1- Wilt: 80
2- Oscar: 79
3- Hawkins: 76
4- Jordan: 72
5- Kareem: 71
6- Kareem: 70
7- Jordan: 69
8- Issel: 63
8- Kobe: 63
9- McAdoo: 57
9- AI: 57
10- KD 56
10- KD 56
11- KD 55


Chuckerfest. Yawn.

[LAZERUSS]

Can you post the interview where he made this claim to you?

Here is one...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html


After his monstrous scoring year in 1961-62, Chamberlain's average dropped slowly each year until the 1967-68 season, when it rose slightly to 24.3 points per game from 24.1 the season before. During his first seven years Chamberlain scored an average of 39.4 points per game and led the league in scoring all seven seasons, a string matched only by Michael Jordan two decades later. In Chamberlain's second seven years, he averaged 20.7 points.

Was the waning production attributable to the effects of age and better defenses? Chamberlain didn't think so. "I look back and know that my last seven years in the league versus my first seven years were a joke in terms of scoring," he told the Philadelphia Daily News. "I stopped shooting -- coaches asked me to do that, and I did. I wonder sometimes if that was a mistake."

BTW, Chamberlain's 69-70 season might have been one of his greatest. I say "might have" because he shredded his knee in the ninth game, and was never the same player again.

But, it was interesting from this perspective...in his three previous seasons his COACHES asked him to basically shoot less. His new coach in the 69-70 season, asked Chamberlain to become the focal point of the offense.

And he responded by leading the league in scoring thru those first nine games, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%, and with 20.6 rpg.) BTW, his teammate, Jerry West, was second in scoring at the time, at 30.8 ppg (and would go on to lead the league at 31.2 ppg.)

Furthermore, that 32.2 ppg average was not inflated by one or two huge games. In those nine games he had games of 33. 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 (against Bob Rule...go head and look him up), and 43 (against Dierking.) The Dierking game was interesting from the standpoint that a prime Chamberlain routinely hung 50+ games on him (with a high of 63), but Kareem would also face Dierking in double digit H2H's, and his high against him was 41.

Oh, and in their only H2H before Chamberlain blew out his knee, he easily outplayed rookie Kareem (Alcindor.) He outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (including two sky-hooks); and outshot him from the floor, 9-14 to 9-21.

And one more thing...Wilt's injury occurred in the third quarter of a game in which he had played 28 minutes, and had scored 33 points (on 13-14 shooting.) Clearly, he was on his way to a 40+ point game, and perhaps yet another 50 point game.

Think about this...had Chamberlain scored 50 points in that game, his ppg average would have been 34.1 ppg (to go along with a .579 FG% and 20.6 + rpg.)

Kareem would go on to average 28.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, and on a .518 FG% in that same season. And a couple of years later KAJ would have the greatest season of his career... 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and on a .574 FG%.

And here was a 33 year old Chamberlain, well on his way to a 34.1 ppg, 20.6 rpg, .579 FG% season.

Of course, Wilt's scoring declined from '66-67 thru '68-69...not because he couldn't score, but because his coaches asked him to shoot less. Keep in mind, though, that he had the season high scoring games in each of the those seasons (58 in '67, 68 in '68, and 66 in '69.) BTW, Rick Barry won the scoring title in that 66-67 season, at 35.6 ppg (which was the highest fulltime "non-Wilt" season in the Wilt era), and stated that he [Barry] won the title, only because Wilt didn't want it.

And later on, in the 68-69 season, Chamberlain's scoring had declined so much (to about 17.5 ppg at mid-season) that Sports Illustrated ran an article that hit the news-stands on 1/27/69...claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Too bad for them that, the night before that story hit the news-stands...Chamberlain unleashed a 60 point game, and would follow that up with a 66 point game a few nights later.

In any case, CLEARLY, had Wilt wanted to score, he could have scored FAR more than he actually did.

[LAZERUSS]

BBR doesn't have the data before 64, there is no ill-intent here, if you are so angry about my representation go post a new thread using your sources. But I doubt you would, because it would mean you would have to spend time researching players other than Wilt.

I wouldn't have to...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain


NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 from December 16–29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest streaks with 6 in 1962, and 5 in 1961 and 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 from December 8–30, 1961 and January 11-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9–25, 1962.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961 – February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.

NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961 – January 19, 1963)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963-March 18, 1964.

[LAZERUSS]

Can you post the interview where he made this claim to you?

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/boards/topic/85392-wilt-chamberlains-resume/?page=6

(Wilt's autobiography)...


When people talk about things that are being done today as if they have never been done before, of course I feel cheated. I am sorry that video was not perfected during my early career so that more people could view for themselves. I must admit that I don't know any other sport that changed the game because of a single player. And I don't know of a another athlete who dominated any phase of his sport like I did with scoring and rebounding. Nor have I heard of anyone else who was asked to give up the most dominating part of his game (in my case, scoring) because they thought he could be even more dominating if he concentrated on other aspects of his game. (In my case, it was passing. And that year, 1968, I lead the league in assists. That would be like asking Joe Montana to switch to defensive back and have him lead the league in interceptions.) In some ways it was very flattering that they were so confident. I could dominate in any aspect of the game I wanted. On the other hand, would have asked Babe Ruth to go back to pitching after realizing how great he was at batting? I don't think so.


Perhaps anger is too strong a word to describe my feelings on this matter, yet the more I reflect on this aspect of my career, the more I bristle.


In my first four or five years in the NBA, I so dominated the scoring that even my strongest detractors had to concede that I could score almost whenever I wanted to. An example of how I dominanted was brought to light on January 9, 1991, when Michael Jordan scored his fiften thousandth point. All the papers praised his achievement and related that he reached that milestone in his 460th game-faster than anyone in NBA history except yours truly, who did it in 358 games. That's right-102 games quicker. I mention this to illustrate the point that it was only after I was besieged by many bullshit factions that I started to score less and less. I did it only to appease my detractors, not because of any inability to keep scoring. There is no doubt that if I had chosen to keep scoring; I could have, and just as easily in my last years of play as in the beginning o my career. I became a smarter player as I got older and my field goal percentage started to climb to unreal numbers. Also the center competition, in my mind's eye, became less and less formidable. Russell was getting old. Kareem was not strong enough to stop me going to the basket (which I did more of in my later years than I was allowed to in my early years). I want you to realize that I dunked the basketball about half as many shots a game when I was really scoring points as Michael Jordan does now. I mainly used fadeaway jump shots and finger rolls to score my shots. The point is, I could have put the scoring record so far out of reach that Kareem would have had to play thirty years, not twenty, to break the record. But I sacrificed all that scoring ability for whatever my teams wanted of me. I call that real unselfishness-not like that crap you hear announcers say when a player gives off a pass to a teammate. My last game in the NBA was indicative of what I had allowed myself to become as a scorer. I took one-that's right-one shot during the entire game. There were many games during the last four or five years of my career when I took one or no shots. But I led the NBA in rebounding and blocked shots, and I established a shooting percentage record that may stand for many a year-72.7 percent.


What would you have done if you were the greatest scorer the game has ever seen? Would you stop shooting and pass the ball to some guy who on his best day couldn't score in an entire game what you averaged for one quarter? For better or worse, that's what I did.


At times I got a little angry when I read that I couldn't score any more. So I would go out and score fifty or sixty points just to show people that I could still do it; then I would go back to role playing, scoring twelve and thirteen points a contest.

[Lebronxrings]

Looks like kobe is not gonna be top 10 again. :(

[dunksby]

KD ties Jordan's record with 72 consecutive games scoring 20 points or more.

[aj1987]

Lozerus ruins pretty much every thread.

NEWSFLASH: Outside of a dozen people, no one gives a shit about the statpadding mental midget.

KD... :applause:

[Big164]

Lozerus ruins pretty much every thread.

NEWSFLASH: Outside of a dozen people, no one gives a shit about the statpadding mental midget.

KD... :applause:
A dozen on a msg board is Alot considering Wilt played 50 fkin years ago. FMVP Paul Pierce played very recently and already forgotten.

Wilts greatness has survived 50 NBA seasons and counting.Bron'll be lucky to get half that,

[LAZERUSS]

Lozerus ruins pretty much every thread.

NEWSFLASH: Outside of a dozen people, no one gives a shit about the statpadding mental midget.

KD... :applause:

I deal in FACTS ajackoff. FACTS.

The OP claimed that Wilt had an 80 game streak of 20+ point games. Which was only partly true. He actually had TWO streaks of 80+ 20+ point games. Namely, two separate streaks of 126 and 92 20+ games.

Not only that, but add in his playoffs in the first span (his '61 and '62 playoffs), and the first streak was actually at 141. BTW, KD couldn't make that same claim in his 72 game streak. He had a 19 point game in last year's playoffs.

Furthermore, in the 126 game streak, Chamberlain had a TOTAL of SIX games in which he didn't score 30+, with a LOW of 23. In fact, he AVERAGED about 48 ppg in those 126 games. He wasn't going into 4th quarters with 12 points, and being spoon-fed until he hit 20. A 20 point game was an awful game for Wilt, and in fact, he was routinely putting up 20+ point first halves.

Oh, and in that 126 game span, he faced the Celtics and Russell 15 times. If you want to use his playoffs, and his 141 game streak, he met Russell 22 times. And in that span he had four games of less than 30, with a low of 22, and 10 games of 40+, and an average of 37 ppg in those 22 games.

FACTS ajackoff. FACTS.

[Dray n Klay]

How many 20+ point Finals did 3" WiltCHOKE have?

[LAZERUSS]

How many 20+ point Finals did 3" WiltCHOKE have?

The FINALS in the decade of the 60's were between the Celtics...and WILT. And he was putting up 22-25-7, 22-32-10, 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 in those Finals.

You want an example...


In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, he was traded mid-year, for three decent players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried what was a 40-40 team, past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round.

Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 25.2 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .465.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins, including a 129-96 clincher. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01



Compare that with Lebron's '16 Finals. Took a 57-25 team up against a 73-9 team that barely won a seven game series against a 55 win team, and was outscored in that series. Then, after the Warriors went up 3-1, the NBA suspended Draymond Green; Andrew Bogut, their rim-protector, missed the last two games with an injury; and the "Lebron-Stopper" Iguadala injured his back and was just a shell in the last two games of the series.

In the game seven win, Lebron shot 9-24 from the field, including 0-4 in the last four minutes. He needed a great defensive stop by Kevin Love (of all people), and a game winning trey from Kyrie to win the game.

Lebron's game seven stats:

27 points, on 9-24 from the field, with an eFG% of .396, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot .450. And with a TS% of .475, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501.

He also had a teammate score 26 points, on a .478 eFG%, and a .525 TS%.

The best player on the floor in that game seven?

How about Draymond Green, who as you will recall, was suspended in game five. Green put up a game high 32 points, on a .933 eFG% and a .955 TS%, with a game high 15 rebounds.


James had a great series, but not a Wilt-esque '65 EDF's.

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg on a .533 eFG%, and a .562 TS%, in a series in which both teams shot considerably higher than the teams in Wilt's '65 EDF's.


In any case... Lebron was one shot away from losing the '16 Finals, and Wilt was one bad inbounds pass away from winning a ring in '65.

BTW...none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.



One can only imagine the numbers that a prime Chamberlain would have put up had he faced the likes of a washed-up Smits in his last season; or a 35 year old Mutombo, whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp; or a never was career 6 ppg scorer in "bad feet" MacCulloch; or a complete bust in Dampier; in FOUR Finals.

[Lebronxrings]

a focused lebron and durant on a bad team would probably beat the record.

[Psileas]

Wilt's 126 streak doesn't even tell the whole truth given how he played limited minutes both before (last game of r.s) and after (technical fouls) this streak occured. Would be more like 178 games under more normal circumstances - and, no, playoffs wouldn't bend it, either.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's 126 streak doesn't even tell the whole truth given how he played limited minutes both before (last game of r.s) and after (technical fouls) this streak occured. Would be more like 178 games under more normal circumstances - and, no, playoffs wouldn't bend it, either.

His 92 game streak also didn't include the playoffs, in which he hung 12 more games of 20+ (with only a 22 and 28 point game being below 30.)

In the game in which he was thrown out, he only played four minutes, and still put up 6 points. So he most likely on his way to yet another 40+ point game. So, assuming that he had played an entire game, his 126 streak would have reached 147 (and add in his 15 playoff games, and it would have been at 162.)

The one game that would have broken that 147 streak was a 13 point game in 40 minutes. Of course, no one at the time gave his 20+ game streak a second thought. Had this occurred in the Durant era, and he likely would have been spoon-fed enough shots, and given enough minutes, to hit 20.

He then went on a 92 game streak, which, like his 61-62 season, involved a 20+ point game in every game of the 63-64 season (and again, just like his 61-62 post-season, a 20+ point game in every playoff game.)

So, had he not been kicked out of that one game...and he was ONE game away from 240 straight games of 20+. Add in 27 more playoff games of 20+...and it would have run to 267.

And again, he probably AVERAGED 42-43 ppg in those 267 games!

Of course, Wilt's era didn't have the benefit of hindsight. These streak records, and terms like "triple-doubles", were not regarded as they are today.

For instance, in his '67-68 season, no one cared about "triple-doubles", nor were blocks officially recorded. At the end of that season, Chamberlain put up a still NBA record of nine straight triple-doubles. However, he was one assist away from recording 12 triple doubles in a row. And had blocked shots been an official stat, and had triple doubles (and quad doubles) actually been considered a relevant statistic, ... and given what we know today...and he, and Oscar, likely would have put some of these triples and quads so far out of reach that they would be untouchable today.

[dankok8]

Those who say Wilt could have scored more completely ignore the reason he started scoring less in the first place. While he was in his scoring prime, his team never won a championship and in those seven years only came close on two occasions, in 1962 and 1965. If Wilt kept scoring he would have had 40k points but quite likely no rings.

[Psileas]

Those who say Wilt could have scored more completely ignore the reason he started scoring less in the first place. While he was in his scoring prime, his team never won a championship and in those seven years only came close on two occasions, in 1962 and 1965. If Wilt kept scoring he would have had 40k points but quite likely no rings.

First of all, the specific streaks of 20+ point scoring happened more than a full season before Wilt cut down his scoring and his teams weren't even that competitive without his scoring to begin with. Seeing how they fared each time Wilt shot and scored "little" compared to vice-versa, Wilt scoring a lot seems the most obvious choice to make them more competitive.
Second, who knows. The '67 Sixers, healthy as they were throughout that season, might be able to win the title even with a high scoring Wilt and with correct role distributions. Why couldn't they? Kareem's Bucks did, in 1971. After all, even high scoring Wilt led teams did come very close to beating the Celtics twice (and, ironically, some here blame Wilt for not scoring more in '62 vs the Celtics), so it's not as if Wilt's high scoring was a recipe for disaster. And while 1967 seems to favor his non-scoring roles, 1968-71 don't support this case. If anything, that period seems like 1960-66 all over again. A 1969 Wilt is constantly heavily blamed for not scoring more in the '69 Finals (and sometimes, in general), yet, we all know he would easily do so if he wasn't constantly assigned with so bizarre, out of his comfort/familiarity zone, roles by his coach, like playing out of the post, to open space for Baylor. I mean, we all know that Wilt was capable of averaging more than 8 shots per game vs Russell and it wasn't Russell's defense what primarily held Wilt to 11.6 ppg, right? Wilt had never averaged in a series less than 21.6 ppg against Russell and he obviously hadn't forgotten how to score within a single season.

[dankok8]

First of all, the specific streaks of 20+ point scoring happened more than a full season before Wilt cut down his scoring and his teams weren't even that competitive without his scoring to begin with. Seeing how they fared each time Wilt shot and scored "little" compared to vice-versa, Wilt scoring a lot seems the most obvious choice to make them more competitive.
Second, who knows. The '67 Sixers, healthy as they were throughout that season, might be able to win the title even with a high scoring Wilt and with correct role distributions. Why couldn't they? Kareem's Bucks did, in 1971. After all, even high scoring Wilt led teams did come very close to beating the Celtics twice (and, ironically, some here blame Wilt for not scoring more in '62 vs the Celtics), so it's not as if Wilt's high scoring was a recipe for disaster. And while 1967 seems to favor his non-scoring roles, 1968-71 don't support this case. If anything, that period seems like 1960-66 all over again. A 1969 Wilt is constantly heavily blamed for not scoring more in the '69 Finals (and sometimes, in general), yet, we all know he would easily do so if he wasn't constantly assigned with so bizarre, out of his comfort/familiarity zone, roles by his coach, like playing out of the post, to open space for Baylor. I mean, we all know that Wilt was capable of averaging more than 8 shots per game vs Russell and it wasn't Russell's defense what primarily held Wilt to 11.6 ppg, right? Wilt had never averaged in a series less than 21.6 ppg against Russell and he obviously hadn't forgotten how to score within a single season.

It is obviously not clear cut like Wilt couldn't win while scoring or conversely Wilt couldn't lose when not scoring but Alex Hannum wanted Wilt to shoot less because he thought it would make his team better. And it did...

The fact that he was criticized for not scoring more isn't in opposition to what I said. In 1969 Wilt definitely didn't shoot enough. Even in his scoring prime he had times (1962 Game 7 and 1966 through the first four games) that he didn't shoot enough. He generally went from doing too much in his early years to deferring too much. It was inexcusable for him to average just 11.7 ppg in the 1969 finals. Wilt always said that he did what the coaches asked but many other greats knew what things to do that their team needs to win. Wilt had to be told what to do. Sometimes in the middle of a close game, you have to figure it out and do it. The coach won't or can't interfere. Based on what Wilt has been saying all his life even after retiring from basketball, one can make an argument that Wilt never quite figured that out. He had far too many seasons where he set out to break records. Scoring records, rebounding records, assist records, field goal percentage records... That really is undeniable.

Anyways Wilt should get full credit for the records he owns. ESPN's cherry-picked stats are bull. I agree with LAZERUSS on that.

[Psileas]

It is obviously not clear cut like Wilt couldn't win while scoring or conversely Wilt couldn't lose when not scoring but Alex Hannum wanted Wilt to shoot less because he thought it would make his team better. And it did...

The fact that he was criticized for not scoring more isn't in opposition to what I said. In 1969 Wilt definitely didn't shoot enough. Even in his scoring prime he had times (1962 Game 7 and 1966 through the first four games) that he didn't shoot enough. He generally went from doing too much in his early years to deferring too much. It was inexcusable for him to average just 11.7 ppg in the 1969 finals. Wilt always said that he did what the coaches asked but many other greats knew what things to do that their team needs to win. Wilt had to be told what to do. Sometimes in the middle of a close game, you have to figure it out and do it. The coach won't or can't interfere. Based on what Wilt has been saying all his life even after retiring from basketball, one can make an argument that Wilt never quite figured that out. He had far too many seasons where he set out to break records. Scoring records, rebounding records, assist records, field goal percentage records... That really is undeniable.

Anyways Wilt should get full credit for the records he owns. ESPN's cherry-picked stats are bull. I agree with LAZERUSS on that.

We're talking about Wilt's era now, right? Given other non-Celtic legends' failures to win titles, no, even other greats didn't "know" what to do when it came to winning the crucial one. The difference is, they weren't criticized the same way Wilt was and it wasn't due to them doing the right things when it mattered compared to Wilt, but due to Wilt having raised people's expectations so much that not winning the title was considered, solely for him, a failure. I don't see people shitting on West for not playing well in certain do or die games in 1964 or '65 or '70 or '73 or Oscar for '64, '65 or '67 (let alone him missing the playoffs multiple times in his prime). These guys didn't show they can win any better than Wilt and they weren't even better performers in do or die games (Lazeruss has provided the list which shows Wilt was among the GOAT "do or die performers"), but Wilt did get blamed a lot more. I guess Wilt viewed this the same way and eventually got frustrated, which is why he waited from his coaches to tell him what to do.

Saying Wilt was inexcusable to average 11.7 is the same as saying Wilt was inexcusable to average 8 shots, which is the main reason he averaged 11.7. So, why didn't his coach point this out throughout the series? Why couldn't he figure out that Wilt not shooting enough was crucial to the Lakers not closing out the series? I've never found any reference to show he complained to Wilt for not shooting enough. I've never seen anyone from his era even mention this matter outside of modern fans, who obviously haven't watched the games. Funnily enough, in the Finals games when the Lakers won, Wilt averaged less than in losses. So, I'm not sure what to make of this.

[dankok8]

We're talking about Wilt's era now, right? Given other non-Celtic legends' failures to win titles, no, even other greats didn't "know" what to do when it came to winning the crucial one. The difference is, they weren't criticized the same way Wilt was and it wasn't due to them doing the right things when it mattered compared to Wilt, but due to Wilt having raised people's expectations so much that not winning the title was considered, solely for him, a failure. I don't see people shitting on West for not playing well in certain do or die games in 1964 or '65 or '70 or '73 or Oscar for '64, '65 or '67 (let alone him missing the playoffs multiple times in his prime). These guys didn't show they can win any better than Wilt and they weren't even better performers in do or die games (Lazeruss has provided the list which shows Wilt was among the GOAT "do or die performers"), but Wilt did get blamed a lot more. I guess Wilt viewed this the same way and eventually got frustrated, which is why he waited from his coaches to tell him what to do.

Saying Wilt was inexcusable to average 11.7 is the same as saying Wilt was inexcusable to average 8 shots, which is the main reason he averaged 11.7. So, why didn't his coach point this out throughout the series? Why couldn't he figure out that Wilt not shooting enough was crucial to the Lakers not closing out the series? I've never found any reference to show he complained to Wilt for not shooting enough. I've never seen anyone from his era even mention this matter outside of modern fans, who obviously haven't watched the games. Funnily enough, in the Finals games when the Lakers won, Wilt averaged less than in losses. So, I'm not sure what to make of this.

You are right. Those other legends like Oscar, Baylor, West etc. also never figured out how to win as the best players on their teams but those guys are not in the GOAT conversation. Wilt is and therefore he is held to a higher standard. By the way, those guys' legacies did take a hit too. Oscar and West are on very few top 10 lists and out of top 15 often these days even though one could make an argument that no PG was ever as dominant as Oscar and no SG as dominant as West (or at least that West was Jordan's equal...his playoff performances were insane!).

Butch van Breda Kolff was an awful coach who disliked Wilt and put personal differences above the team but still... Wilt must have had the ball in scoring position way more than 8 times per game in that series. There is no excuse to be so passive and put up so few shots.

I have always said that Wilt lost his GOAT case not in his early career but from 1968-1970 when his subpar play was instrumental in his team giving away three straight championships.

[LAZERUSS]

Those who say Wilt could have scored more completely ignore the reason he started scoring less in the first place. While he was in his scoring prime, his team never won a championship and in those seven years only came close on two occasions, in 1962 and 1965. If Wilt kept scoring he would have had 40k points but quite likely no rings.

Chamberlain joined a last place team in his rookie season. He immediately led them to a 49-26 record. And he did so averaging 37.6 ppg en route to not only ROY, but a solid MVP as well.

A couple of points here. One, their key players from the year before, Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers, either slightly declined (Arizin dropped from 26.4 ppg down to 22.3 ppg), or increased (Gola went from 14.1 to 15.0, and Rodgers from 10.7 to 11.6.) Wilt's scoring had little overall effect on his teammates.

Secondly, while they were beaten in the EDF's by Boston in six games, they were actually more competitive than the Hawks were in a seven game series loss to Boston in the Finals. The Celtics enjoyed a +7.8 ppg margin over St. Louis, and only a +3.8 against Philly. Furthermore, the clinching game six in the Warrior series was decided by two points. Boston pounded the Hawks in the clincher in the Finals.

Not only that, but what is often over-looked in the '60 EDF's, was that Wilt badly injured his right wrist in a melee at the end of game two. There was even speculation that it might have been broken. How bad was that injury? Wilt only played 35 minutes (BTW, Russell played 40), in the ONLY playoff H2H between he and Russell, in which Russell DECISIVELY outplayed Chamberlain. Russell outscored Wilt 26-12, and outrebounded Chamberlain by a staggering 39-15. Of course...with Russell outplaying Wilt...you can guess the final score. 120-90.

Of course, back then playoff games were often back-to-back, as was the case with game four. Wilt was still nowhere near 100% going into game four, but he was at least able to slightly outplay Russell in that game...in a close loss. Two days later Chamberlain was back at full strength, and he unleashed a monster game on Russell...outscoring him 50-22, and outrebounding him 35-27...in a 128-107 win. In the clincher, Wilt slightly outplayed Russell, but as always, Russell's teammates outplayed Wilt's, in a 119-117 win. One can only wonder how that series might have played out had Wilt been at 100% for the entire series.

This was just one, of several examples, in which the REAL Finals in the decade of the 60's involved the Celtics...and Wilt. In fact, aside from '61, and '63, you could make a case that all EIGHT of the Wilt-Boston battles were for the NBA title in the 60's.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Those that claim that Wilt was a "selfish" scorer in his 61-62 season, ignore the FACT that it was NOT Chamberlain's idea to take 40 FGAs per game. It was his COACH's. Following the three game sweeping loss to the Nats in the '61 playoffs, Frank McGuire decided that the Warriors only hope, lied in Chamberlain taking on an even greater role in the offense. In the '61 playoffs, Wilt's three key teammates, Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers, shot .328, .206, and .368 respectively.

The reality was, the Celtics were a much better run organization than Wilt's Warriors. In Russell's rookie season, Boston not only added him, but they also drafted Tom Heinsohn. The next year they added Sam Jones. By the early 60's they had added John Havlicek. In 1963, they added HOFer Clyde Lovellette, who had averaged 20 ppg just the season before...and he was only their EIGHTH best player that season. In fact, they fielded NINE HOFers on their '63 roster.

Meanwhile, the Warriors were content to get older and worse. They put all their eggs in Wilt's basket. By the '62 season, Arizin was in his last season, and Gola was nearing the end. McGuire decided that Chamberlain shooting 40 FGAs per game, on 50% shooting, was better than anyone else on that roster taking shots on 40% (or worse) shooting.

Chamberlain essentially single-handedly carried that Warrior roster to a 49-31 record. Yes, Arizin, Gola, Rodgers, and even rookie Tom Meschery, contributed. But their contributions paled in comparison to what Russell's teammates were giving him.

Wilt single-handedly carried Philly past the pesky Nats in the first round, which included the "at the limit" game five 56-35-12 performance. In the EDF's, Chamberlain's Warriors lost a game seven by two points. In a series in which Wilt averaged 34-27. In Robert Cherry's book on Wilt's life, he mentioned that Boston was favored in EVERY game of the '62 EDF's. Wilt's teammate summed it up best. Aside from Wilt, Boston was better, player-for-player thru the entire roster...and that WILT was the reason that the Warriors nearly won the title.

The Lakers, with both West and Baylor (and with Baylor hanging a 41 ppg Finals) also took Boston to a game seven, losing game seven in OT. In any case, Wilt carried a worse roster, as far as Baylor and West combined did.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Dankok8 mentions that a scoring Wilt only came close to a title twice.

How about Wilt's '64 Warriors?

Granted, aside from Wilt, this was a horrific roster. Essentially the same roster that had gone 31-49 the year before (and with Wilt leading the NBA in FIFTEEN statistical categories, including WIN SHARES.)

How bad was that '64 roster?

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/03/02/608684/meet-the-new-wilt-chamberlain

[QUOTE]So are the Warriors, a team that lists on its roster some of the slowest players and worst shooters ever to play in the NBA. With just 14 games remaining in the regular season, San Francisco

[Dray n Klay]

Wilt and his 3" SHRANK in the 1969 NBA Finals, not a single 20 point game in the the Finals series..




We all saw Wilt SHRINKING and SMALL in the Finals, as expected

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Even Dankok8 agrees that Wilt's '65 Sixers narrowly missed a title.

In that '64-65 season, Wilt was traded at mid-season, for three players, who had collectively averaged 31 ppg, to a Sixers team that had gone 34-46 the year before.

And much like his rookie season, his huge scoring had little effect on his key teammates. Hal Greer averaged 23.3 ppg in his '64 season, and Chet Walker averaged 17.3 that same season.

In fact, take a look at those two in their '64 playoffs, and pre-Wilt (and a first round exit BTW):

Greer 21.4 ppg on a .389 FG%.
Walker 18.8 ppg on a .390 FG%.


Even with Wilt in that second half, the Sixers were barely a .500 team. Overall, they finished 40-40. Meanwhile, the Celtics were at the peak of their Dynasty, putting up a best ever, at the time, record of 62-18.

In the first round, Chamberlain led his Sixers to a 3-1 series romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals (Oscar, Lucas, Twyman, Embry, and Odie Smith.) In the clincher, Chamberlain hung a 38-26-5-10 game.

I have documented Wilt's '65 EDF's here before...


Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 25.2 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .465.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins, including a 129-96 clincher. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id1=ellisle01&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id2=chambwi01


As a side-note...I pointed out Greer's and Walker's playoff numbers in their '64 post-season, and pre-Wilt:

Greer 21.4 ppg on a .389 FG%.
Walker 18.8 ppg on a .390 FG%.

How about their '65 post-season, and now with Wilt?

Greer 24.6 ppg on a .455 FG%
Walker 20.3 ppg on a .480 FG%

and Wilt? 29.3 ppg, 27.2 rpg, 4.4 apg, and on a .530 FG%.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

For those that claim that Wilt's scoring didn't lead to team success (which was already shredded earlier in this topic)...

how about his '65-66 season?

Chamberlain led the league in PPG, RPG, FG%, and several other statistical categories, including a runaway in WIN SHARES...

all while leading the Sixers to the BEST RECORD in the league.

Granted, that "best record" was somewhat of a mirage. Philly had to win their last 11 games to eke out a one game margin over the Celtics. Not only that, but the Celtics had their key players miss quite a few games overall. The reality was, the Celtics were still the most stacked team in the league.

Before I get to the EDF's, during their regular season H2H's, the Sixers held a 6-4 edge over the Celtics. In fact, Wilt missed one of those games, and it was, of course, a convincing loss. So, with Wilt, the Sixers had enjoyed a 6-3 H2H advantage over Boston. And in those nine games Chamberlain averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.2 apg, and shot .473 from the field.

In the EDF's, the Celtics romped over Wilt's Sixers, 4-1. Must have been Wilt's fault, right? Surely a massive decline from his regular season numbers against them, right? Yep...Wilt's scoring dropped from 28.3 ppg down to 28.0 ppg; his rebounding declined from 30.7 rpg, down to 30.2 rpg; his assists dropped from 4.2 apg down to 3.3 apg (more on that in a moment); and his FG%...well, he actually elevated it from .473 to .509.

What happened then? Wilt's teammates collectively shot...get this... .352 from the field (which obviously affected his apg, as well.) Walker shot .375, and Greer shot .352. Rookie Billy Cunningham, who had averaged 14.3 ppg on a .426 FG% in the regular season, was hurt, only played in four playoff games, and averaged 5.3 ppg on a .161 FG%. But yes, blame WILT for that series loss.


There you have it. Wilt's "scoring" seasons...from his rookie season in '59-60, thru his last league-leading scoring season, in '65-66.

He came within an eyelash of winning a title twice ('62 and '65), and was very competitive in two more ('60 and '64.) He also led his team to the best record in the league in one more.

[dankok8]

Scoring Wilt did lead his teams to some success but not championship success... For a GOAT-caliber player at his peak to lead his teams (some pretty talented teams at that...) to 40-something wins is not impressive at all.

LAZERUSS is conveniently ignoring that:

- the Warriors in 1959 were so bad because their all-star C Neil Johnston missed basically the entire season to injury; in 1958 a healthy Warriors roster made the Eastern Division Finals and lost to Boston in 5 games, not much worse than what they did with Wilt losing in 6 games

- in 1960 against Boston it was Wilt's fault for getting injured, he's the one who punched Heinsohn and hurt his hand in the process

- the Warriors in 1961 were swept by the underdog Syracuse Nationals

- the Warriors in 1963 won just 31 games and missed the playoffs; this was a roster no worse than in 1964

- before he got traded in 1965 Wilt was on his way to a historically awful season by a pantheon player; Warriors were a woeful 11-33 when Wilt got traded at the all-star break

- Wilt was subpar in the first four games of the 1966 series against Boston as the Sixers fell down 3-1; in the fifth game he erupted but it was too late


He obviously had instances where he played well and carried his team like in 1962 and especially in 1965 with the Sixers. My problem is when people pretend like he had a good winning resume. He really didn't... It is not modern media and fans who paint Wilt as a player lacking intangibles aka "a loser". It was his contemporaries who expressed doubt in his ability, commitment, and attitude required to win championships.

[Psileas]

Scoring Wilt did lead his teams to some success but not championship success... For a GOAT-caliber player at his peak to lead his teams (some pretty talented teams at that...) to 40-something wins is not impressive at all.

Given that Russell was usually leading the clearly superior Celtics to 55-60 wins and that the perennial Western champions Lakers were in the 45-50 win range (at times less than Wilt's teams), I'll say his team records were usually pretty fine.



LAZERUSS is conveniently ignoring that:

- the Warriors in 1959 were so bad because their all-star C Neil Johnston missed basically the entire season to injury; in 1958 a healthy Warriors roster made the Eastern Division Finals and lost to Boston in 5 games, not much worse than what they did with Wilt losing in 6 games

The 1958 Warriors went 37-35, the 1959 Warriors went 32-40 and the 1960 Warriors went 46-29. The 1960 Warriors had Wilt injured vs the for 2 games, played an improved Celtics team (59-16 vs 49-23) and still sent them to 6 games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the 1960 Warriors were clearly better than both their '58 and '59 versions.


- the Warriors in 1961 were swept by the underdog Syracuse Nationals


How is this relevant to Wilt? Did he underperform in the series? Btw, this was the only series that a Wilt-led team lost in the playoffs to a non eventual champion.


- the Warriors in 1963 won just 31 games and missed the playoffs; this was a roster no worse than in 1964


Eh, it was. The '63 squad used 16 different players in its roster, which is pretty big for the era. The '64 squad, only 11, including rookie Thurmond.


- before he got traded in 1965 Wilt was on his way to a historically awful season by a pantheon player; Warriors were a woeful 11-33 when Wilt got traded at the all-star break


And yet, this was the same Wilt who sent the 62-18 Celtics to 7 games with 30/31 averages. So, whose was the awful season exactly? Was really Wilt the one who had a bad season?


- Wilt was subpar in the first four games of the 1966 series against Boston as the Sixers fell down 3-1; in the fifth game he erupted but it was too late


Yeah, it was "too late" because the Celtics were quite clearly better. Wilt would have needed a stupid 55+ point game in Game 5 to win. The first 2 games were 20-point blowouts, which means Wilt would have needed 45+ pointers in each to give them a chance. Btw, you know you've set the bar pretty damn high when 25-32-5 and 31-27-4 games vs Russell are considered (decades after the fact) subpar. These are comparable numbers with what a 1971 Kareem had been producing during that postseason.


He obviously had instances where he played well and carried his team like in 1962 and especially in 1965 with the Sixers. My problem is when people pretend like he had a good winning resume. He really didn't... It is not modern media and fans who paint Wilt as a player lacking intangibles aka "a loser". It was his contemporaries who expressed doubt in his ability, commitment, and attitude required to win championships.

It's because they weren't experienced enough to know better. They were stuck in the pre-24'' era, when a big man's presence like Mikan alone could make all the difference in the world and they expected Wilt to continue this. But things had changed and when Mikan came back in '56, he realized this, as well. Heck, people weren't even learning their lessons decades later. Jordan was often branded a non winner in the 80's and LeBron...I don't even need to remind you what people thought of him up to 2016 because of failing to beat clearly superior teams.
People don't want analyses and contexts, they want simplistic results that they can easily interpret (2/6, "22"...:rolleyes: ), although the reality is never as simple as people think it is.

[Big164]

Wilt's peaks are so profound the lows don't even matter

100 Game
50.4 season
30.1 career
20k women

Greatest scorer of all time!

[LAZERUSS]

- the Warriors in 1963 won just 31 games and missed the playoffs; this was a roster no worse than in 1964

- before he got traded in 1965 Wilt was on his way to a historically awful season by a pantheon player; Warriors were a woeful 11-33 when Wilt got traded at the all-star break

The '63 Warriors had lost both of their secondary players...Arizin and Gola. And, as Psileas mentioned, the roster was so bad that they used 16 different players....several of whom only had brief NBA careers.

What gets lost about that '63 season was that, while they only went 31-49, they lost 35 games bu single digits, and in fact, were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points (going 4-4 in those.) Not only that, but their ppg differential was -2.2 ppg.

Oh, and they only went 1-8 against the Celtics, but six of those losses were close. And in those nine games Chamberlain outscored Russell by a 38-14 ppg margin.

That again brings us back to the '64 season. I already pointed out that there were two main differences over their '63 season. And one of those was only marginal...rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of position. The real main difference was the COACH. For the first time in his career, Chamberlain had a HOF coach.

Once again, that SI article mentioned that the roster that Hannum inherited was among the slowest, and worst shooters in the entire league. In fact, Hannum concluded that they were so dependent upon Wilt that they had forgotten how to play the game. And, Wilt's second best teammate was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13 ppg. Keep that in mind.

And yet Wilt STILL carried that POS roster to a 48-32 record and thru a much more talented Hawks roster in the WDF's...and did so with a monster run of 39-23 .559. Then, somehow, with practically no help, he got them to a play a competitive five game series against perhaps the most stacked roster in NBA history. In a series in which he he destroyed Russell.


That brings is to the '64-65 season. First of all, Wilt was fighting a mysterious illness his entire time with the Warriors. It was so bad that he missed six games out of those 44. In fact, that illness was the main reason that the Warriors traded him in the first place. Their team doctors mis-diagnosed his aliment as a heart problem. It was later determined to be that it was pancreatis, but in any case, he was never 100% while he was with the Warriors (and BTW, he STILL was averaging 39 ppg when he was traded.)

But keep in mind that Wilt's roster in that '64-65 Warrior season was still pretty much the same roster that had gone 31-49 in '62-63. And again, he somehow had taken that horrific roster to a 48-32 record in the '63-64 season.

And while they only went 10-27 with Wilt in that '64-65 season, they could only go 7-36 with Thurmond replacing him...and putting up a 21 ppg-24 rpg second half of the season.

Ok, we know that Chamberlain was not only traded away for three players who collectively averaged 31 ppg, and on a team that had gone 34-46 the year before...but then he single-handedly almost pulled off the greatest upset in NBA history, losing a game seven to the seven-time defending champion and 62-18 Celtics by one point. Again, in what was probably the most brutal beatdown ever administered by one Top-10 player on another Top-10 player in their primes.

We also know that the very next year the Sixers went on to have the best record in the league, and they followed that up with the best record in the next two seasons, as well, including the all-time best record (at the time) of 68-13, and a dominating world title in the '66-67 season.

How about Wilt's former team, the Warriors? Again, after he was traded, the Warriors inserted Thurmond into his center slot, and not only did Nate put up a 21-24 season the rest of that year...he would go on to have a HOF career. But even with Nate...only a 7-36 record.

The Warriors were so bad in that '64-65 season, that it enabled them to draft future HOFer Rick Barry. And with Thurmond now coming into his prime, and with Barry hanging a rookie season of 26 ppg....a 35-45 record. Think about that. Wilt had taken a much less talented roster to a 48-32 record just two years before. And BOTH Nate and Barry combined couldn't even get to a winning record.

BUT, it gets even better. The '66-67 Warriors had PEAK seasons from BOTH Thurmond (who finished runner-up to Chamberlain in the MVP balloting), with his 19-21 season...and Barry, who would put up the highest full-time "non-Wilt" scoring season in the Wilt era, at 35.6 ppg. On top of that, the '67 Warriors had added Jeff Mullins, who would go on to put up multiple 20+ ppg seasons, and 6-10 Clyde Lee who among the most productive rebounders of his era.

Remember Wilt's second best teammate in the '64 season, and in which the Warriors went 48-32? It was Tom Meschery...who had averaged 13 ppg. Guess what, in that '67 season he averaged 11 ppg...and was the Warriors SEVENTH best scorer. So, here were a peak Thurmond and a peak Barry, and with SEVERAL major additions...and going 44-37 in that '67 season. Again, Wilt had dragged a FAR WORSE roster to a 48-32 record just three years prior. BTW, Chamberlain oberwhelmed Thurmond in the '67 Finals, and carried the Sixers to a 4-2 series win in the process.

[Dray n Klay]

3"
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WiltCHOKE

[dankok8]

Given that Russell was usually leading the clearly superior Celtics to 55-60 wins and that the perennial Western champions Lakers were in the 45-50 win range (at times less than Wilt's teams), I'll say his team records were usually pretty fine.

Fine? Sure. Impressive? No. Subpar for a GOAT candidate playing on a team with 3 HOFers? Absolutely.


The 1958 Warriors went 37-35, the 1959 Warriors went 32-40 and the 1960 Warriors went 46-29. The 1960 Warriors had Wilt injured vs the for 2 games, played an improved Celtics team (59-16 vs 49-23) and still sent them to 6 games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the 1960 Warriors were clearly better than both their '58 and '59 versions.

I never denied that the 1960 Warriors were better than before Wilt came but they weren't better as much as LAZ is claiming by comparing them to the 1959 Warriors who were without their starting all-star center. That was my point.


How is this relevant to Wilt? Did he underperform in the series? Btw, this was the only series that a Wilt-led team lost in the playoffs to a non eventual champion.

Considering he averaged 49.2 %TS and was subpar rebounding the ball, there is a case to be made that he underperformed. Regardless, we are talking about winning and he was upset by an underdog team that had no C capable of dealing with him.


Eh, it was. The '63 squad used 16 different players in its roster, which is pretty big for the era. The '64 squad, only 11, including rookie Thurmond.

LAZERUSS himself said a "comparable POS roster" but ok. I can agree that the 1963 roster was worse than 1964. It was still inexcusable for them to miss the playoffs though and finish below the Detroit Pistons whose only HOF player was a rookie Dave DeBusschere. The following year he won 48 games with a rookie Thurmond but that is still just a solid and an unimpressive record.


What gets lost about that '63 season was that, while they only went 31-49, they lost 35 games bu single digits, and in fact, were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points (going 4-4 in those.) Not only that, but their ppg differential was -2.2 ppg.

Oh, and they only went 1-8 against the Celtics, but six of those losses were close. And in those nine games Chamberlain outscored Russell by a 38-14 ppg margin.

Warriors losing all those games by single digits actually shows that they were competitive but that Wilt couldn't put them over the top. We know he had a poor defensive season that year.

And if as you say Wilt carried a POS roster to 48 games in 1964 why couldn't he carry another POS roster in 1963? You mention Hannum but he was also the coach in 1965 and the team nose-dived. Articles mention that Wilt played strong defense and for the first time in his career committed to sharing the ball in 1964. That's probably the biggest reaon why they won that season.


And yet, this was the same Wilt who sent the 62-18 Celtics to 7 games with 30/31 averages. So, whose was the awful season exactly? Was really Wilt the one who had a bad season?

He was awful with the Warriors (injury but still...) and then just ok with the Sixers during the regular season before he stepped up in the playoffs.


Yeah, it was "too late" because the Celtics were quite clearly better. Wilt would have needed a stupid 55+ point game in Game 5 to win. The first 2 games were 20-point blowouts, which means Wilt would have needed 45+ pointers in each to give them a chance. Btw, you know you've set the bar pretty damn high when 25-32-5 and 31-27-4 games vs Russell are considered (decades after the fact) subpar. These are comparable numbers with what a 1971 Kareem had been producing during that postseason.

Kareem in 1971 played on a juggernaut team that was winning blowout after blowout. 1966 Sixers needed Wilt to score the ball... By the way that's why Kareem is criticized for 1978 when he put up the same numbers as in 1971. His team needed more.


It's because they weren't experienced enough to know better. They were stuck in the pre-24'' era, when a big man's presence like Mikan alone could make all the difference in the world and they expected Wilt to continue this. But things had changed and when Mikan came back in '56, he realized this, as well. Heck, people weren't even learning their lessons decades later. Jordan was often branded a non winner in the 80's and LeBron...I don't even need to remind you what people thought of him up to 2016 because of failing to beat clearly superior teams.

Russell was a center the last time I checked and he did pretty well. And we've been over this before but Wilt had a team that could challenge Russell and the Celtics from 1965 onwards and from 1967-1969 a more talented team on his side.


People don't want analyses and contexts, they want simplistic results that they can easily interpret (2/6, "22"...:rolleyes: ), although the reality is never as simple as people think it is.

Of course "2/6" is stuff only trolls would use. Still I think most basketball historians would consider Wilt an underachiever because of his lack of winning. Wilt gained and lost motivation from year to year. By his own admission he had other interests in life, namely women and driving fast cars. And when he committed to basketball, much of the time his focus was on breaking records and not winning. His sheer talent alone and periods of focus led to two championships but he left a lot on the table. From the talent standpoint, I have no argument with calling Wilt the GOAT but he wouldn't be the first player I would pick on an all time draft to build my team around and I think the majority of the community would support me on that.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Despite some shortcomings, Wilt's career from 1960-1966 is not a stain on his legacy. It's from 1968-1970 that he lost three likely championships and I can't look past that especially considering he was a veteran then and playing on stacked rosters so there are no excuses.

[Jasper]

Dan Issel on the list :applause:

I remember him , but never thought of him as that consistent.

[Psileas]

Fine? Sure. Impressive? No. Subpar for a GOAT candidate playing on a team with 3 HOFers? Absolutely.


What's the team with 3 HOFers? Thw Warriors? Are Gola and Arizin HOFers because of what they did in the 60's? The Lakers? Ironically, the record the '69 team posted was still their best since Mikan's days and the best in the league. People expecting huge 65+ win seasons were like the ones expecting the same thing from the 2011 Heat or today's Warriors. We also know how the '70 Lakers fared without Wilt and that they did post impressive records with Wilt in '72 and '73.


I never denied that the 1960 Warriors were better than before Wilt came but they weren't better as much as LAZ is claiming by comparing them to the 1959 Warriors who were without their starting all-star center. That was my point.


OK, but that's the matter with other great rookie seasons, as well. E.g, people talk about Duncan's rookie season improvement, but fail to take into account that Robinson had missed the previous season. Rookie Jordan improved his team by 11 wins, but that's compared to a team that tanked hard in the finale of their previous season, losing 14 of their last 15 games.


Considering he averaged 49.2 %TS and was subpar rebounding the ball, there is a case to be made that he underperformed. Regardless, we are talking about winning and he was upset by an underdog team that had no C capable of dealing with him.

You're reaching over some small drop. Wilt's drop and overall "underperformance" is peanuts compared to Arizin's and Gola's (aka, their HOF'ers) layed eggs. You may explain Wilt's drop by improved defense/reduced pace, but...32.8% FG from someone taking 22.8 FGAs? 20.6% from the other? Just no comparison. You can take Wilt's performance and still call it huge. Not the same with the others.


LAZERUSS himself said a "comparable POS roster" but ok. I can agree that the 1963 roster was worse than 1964. It was still inexcusable for them to miss the playoffs though and finish below the Detroit Pistons whose only HOF player was a rookie Dave DeBusschere. The following year he won 48 games with a rookie Thurmond but that is still just a solid and an unimpressive record.


You judge a lot by using today's standards. Rarely will you find any impressive team records from that era. Wilt's 1967 Sixers stand alone. The Warriors did as much as the perennial finalists Lakers were doing.
Most importantly, I don't see how Wilt is to be blamed for seasons like 1963. Last time I checked, a player who produces an all-time high PER (not to mention the unadjusted numbers) clearly is asked to do a lot. How is Wilt to blame for this? How is successfully doing a lot - and, I guess, not solely because he himself chose to - making him a worse player? If anything, this is an indication of a team with weak personalities, waiting to be rescued by a 1 man gang, who didn't even want to appear intimidating towards the others.


He was awful with the Warriors (injury but still...) and then just ok with the Sixers during the regular season before he stepped up in the playoffs.

39/24/3 on 50% for the Warriors.
30/22/4 on 53% for the Sixers.
You've set completely new standards for what awful means. Here's a small thought experiment: Have someone watch all of Wilt's available games on the web. Almost all of them are losses. Do you think Wilt will be overall appearing terrible?
Even if all of Wilt's career losses were somehow available (just the losses, without implying people won't know about his wins), do you think he'd be the one looking terrible over there?


Russell was a center the last time I checked and he did pretty well. And we've been over this before but Wilt had a team that could challenge Russell and the Celtics from 1965 onwards and from 1967-1969 a more talented team on his side.

Yes, we've been over this before, and you know what I believe: Wilt's only real missed title was in 1969. No way am I supposed to believe the Sixers were a legit threat to the Celtics before '67 just because they had a talented, but inexperienced core and were vastly outcoached, with a coach with no serious coaching credentials having to match the arguable GOAT. Nor do I consider an injury ridden '68 team losing in 7 games any kind of huge blow. What happened to the Warriors last season was way worse. Their only "mistake" is that they led 3-1, which makes it seem painful (again, Warrior-style, but still not nearly as big a failure).


Of course "2/6" is stuff only trolls would use. Still I think most basketball historians would consider Wilt an underachiever because of his lack of winning. Wilt gained and lost motivation from year to year. By his own admission he had other interests in life, namely women and driving fast cars. And when he committed to basketball, much of the time his focus was on breaking records and not winning. His sheer talent alone and periods of focus led to two championships but he left a lot on the table. From the talent standpoint, I have no argument with calling Wilt the GOAT but he wouldn't be the first player I would pick on an all time draft to build my team around and I think the majority of the community would support me on that.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Despite some shortcomings, Wilt's career from 1960-1966 is not a stain on his legacy. It's from 1968-1970 that he lost three likely championships and I can't look past that especially considering he was a veteran then and playing on stacked rosters so there are no excuses.

Too bad if that's what happens. I'd consider Wilt an underachiever if he underachieved, plain and simple. I don't care what his teams do in the end. If Wilt needs to change something, it's up to his coaches to tell him. Someone who has the talent and ability to dominate almost in any way, but not any way altogether (that's freaking impossible to anyone - scoring a lot, rebounding a lot, playmaking a lot, defending a lot, who the hell has ever done that? Not even the famed 2016 LeBron Finals featured such a player) has to have some good guidance in order to win while dominating. Not having good guidance and being left to just do whatever you deem right is not something that will earn the title of the underachiever by me.

[Big164]

Elgin Baylor was the cancer and kept the Lakers Losing in the playoffs for a decade ..long before Wilt joined the team.

Elgin was so toxic in the locker room, wilt and Lakers went on a 33 game win streak the day after he retired! A record that still stands. and won the championship.

[dankok8]

What's the team with 3 HOFers? Thw Warriors? Are Gola and Arizin HOFers because of what they did in the 60's? The Lakers? Ironically, the record the '69 team posted was still their best since Mikan's days and the best in the league. People expecting huge 65+ win seasons were like the ones expecting the same thing from the 2011 Heat or today's Warriors. We also know how the '70 Lakers fared without Wilt and that they did post impressive records with Wilt in '72 and '73.

Arizin made 3 consecutive all-star appearances from 1960-1962 and Gola made four straight from 1960-1963. We know that at that time every above average started basically made the all-star team but these guys could play. For reference Boston in those years also had around 3 all-stars.

I didn't mean 65+ win seasons but Wilt in his first six seasons never even broke 50 wins. FIFTY!


OK, but that's the matter with other great rookie seasons, as well. E.g, people talk about Duncan's rookie season improvement, but fail to take into account that Robinson had missed the previous season. Rookie Jordan improved his team by 11 wins, but that's compared to a team that tanked hard in the finale of their previous season, losing 14 of their last 15 games.

I have said many times that Duncan's rookie season is very overrated. The team he joined is indeed much better than what their W-L record indicates.


You're reaching over some small drop. Wilt's drop and overall "underperformance" is peanuts compared to Arizin's and Gola's (aka, their HOF'ers) layed eggs. You may explain Wilt's drop by improved defense/reduced pace, but...32.8% FG from someone taking 22.8 FGAs? 20.6% from the other? Just no comparison. You can take Wilt's performance and still call it huge. Not the same with the others.

Arizin is probably top 100 all time, Gola not even that. Wilt is a GOAT candidate. We expect more of Wilt.


You judge a lot by using today's standards. Rarely will you find any impressive team records from that era. Wilt's 1967 Sixers stand alone. The Warriors did as much as the perennial finalists Lakers were doing.
Most importantly, I don't see how Wilt is to be blamed for seasons like 1963. Last time I checked, a player who produces an all-time high PER (not to mention the unadjusted numbers) clearly is asked to do a lot. How is Wilt to blame for this? How is successfully doing a lot - and, I guess, not solely because he himself chose to - making him a worse player? If anything, this is an indication of a team with weak personalities, waiting to be rescued by a 1 man gang, who didn't even want to appear intimidating towards the others.

Wilt didn't play good defense in 1963. Worse than in 1962 and much worse than in 1964.




39/24/3 on 50% for the Warriors.
30/22/4 on 53% for the Sixers.

You've set completely new standards for what awful means. Here's a small thought experiment: Have someone watch all of Wilt's available games on the web. Almost all of them are losses. Do you think Wilt will be overall appearing terrible?

Even if all of Wilt's career losses were somehow available (just the losses, without implying people won't know about his wins), do you think he'd be the one looking terrible over there?


You're missing the point. I am saying awful from a winning perspective. The Warriors went 10-27 with Wilt in the lineup. The Sixers were 19-19 with Wilt in the lineup. Those are not good results.


Yes, we've been over this before, and you know what I believe: Wilt's only real missed title was in 1969. No way am I supposed to believe the Sixers were a legit threat to the Celtics before '67 just because they had a talented, but inexperienced core and were vastly outcoached, with a coach with no serious coaching credentials having to match the arguable GOAT. Nor do I consider an injury ridden '68 team losing in 7 games any kind of huge blow. What happened to the Warriors last season was way worse. Their only "mistake" is that they led 3-1, which makes it seem painful (again, Warrior-style, but still not nearly as big a failure).

The 1968 Warriors were up 3-1 with homecourt advantage just like last year's Warriors. No way can anyone excuse losing from that position especially considering that Wilt was terrible in games 6 and 7. The 1970 finals are also not a good look. Why he didn't destroy a hobbled Willis Reed in Game 7 is baffling. Not to mention Wilt was a statue on defense in that game.


Too bad if that's what happens. I'd consider Wilt an underachiever if he underachieved, plain and simple. I don't care what his teams do in the end. If Wilt needs to change something, it's up to his coaches to tell him. Someone who has the talent and ability to dominate almost in any way, but not any way altogether (that's freaking impossible to anyone - scoring a lot, rebounding a lot, playmaking a lot, defending a lot, who the hell has ever done that? Not even the famed 2016 LeBron Finals featured such a player) has to have some good guidance in order to win while dominating. Not having good guidance and being left to just do whatever you deem right is not something that will earn the title of the underachiever by me.

I totally disagree about coaches always having to tell him.

There are two types of adjustments in the game of basketball. There are macroadjustments which are made between games but there are also microadjustments that are made within the game and often by players themselves. A winning player should be able to see what his team needs in a particular game or even a particular possession. He will set that important screen, come out and contest a guard on defense, even yell out to his teammate to switch rotations... It's those kind of little things that sometimes decide games.

[LAZERUSS]

Arizin made 3 consecutive all-star appearances from 1960-1962 and Gola made four straight from 1960-1963. We know that at that time every above average started basically made the all-star team but these guys could play. For reference Boston in those years also had around 3 all-stars.

I didn't mean 65+ win seasons but Wilt in his first six seasons never even broke 50 wins. FIFTY!


You also realize that there was a limit on the number of all-stars a team could send, right? The reality was, the Celtics could have put up a better all-star team than many of the Western all star teams in the first half of that decade.

Hell, Tom Meschery made the all-star team in 1963, with a 16 ppg season, and missing a ton of games.

As for Gola...there is no way that he would be in an NBA HOF. He was no better than a slightly better than average player. Furthermore, he is, without question, the WORST post-season HOFer in NBA history. And before someone blames Wilt, he was just as bad pre-Wilt. BTW, as ordinary a player as he was, he had his best seasons playing alongside Wilt.

Guy Rodgers in also in the HOF. Of course, he FINALLY made it a few years ago. Why? Because he was the Ricky Rubio of his era. The man simply could not shoot. Let's be honest here...if Rubio's career continues to play out as it has so far, does anyone in their right mind believe he will be in the HOF?

And the difference between Rodgers and Rubio was that, as horrible as they were in shooting, Rodgers STILL shot the ball. He had a season of 20 FGAs per game forcryingoutloud. There is footage of game four of the '64 Finals on YouTube. If you want to get a great laugh, just watch it. You will see Wilt, being swarmed by Celtics nearly the entire time, and still dominating the game (he just murdered Russell at both ends in that game)...but here was Rodgers running amok EVERY time he had the ball, and just throwing up prayers that even God couldn't answer. He would repeatedly un down the floor, not waiting for his teammates, and then hurl up a 20 footer that would hit the side of the backboard. It was truly amazing that the Warriors were still in the game until the final play.

Of the trio of Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers...only Arizin, who was nearing the end of his career when he was paired up with Wilt, would have cracked the Celtics top-7 each year from 60-65, and he didn't play in '63-65.

Granted, players like Satch Sanders, Frank Ramsey, and KC Jones have no business in the HOF either. But Boston still had Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, and Sam Jones in those seasons. And then, for a short time, they also added Havlicek to that mix (before Cousy retired.) And all of them had seasons of 20+ ppg in their careers. Later on in the decade the Celts would add Bailey Howell, who was one of his era's most efficient 20+ scorers...both before, and with Russell.

Furthermore, Sanders and KC Jones were regarded as among the top defensive players for much of the decade. And Sanders was a solid shooter, as well. Something that Wilt's teams lacked in his Warrior seasons.

You claim that Wilt's teams should have won 50+ games. First of all, he was playing alongside a LAST PLACE roster. Even your ridiculous argument about 1958 doesn't hold much water. That team only went 37-35. And, as I stated earlier, while the Celtics continued to improve in personnel year-after-year following the Russell-Heinsohn draft, the Warriors continued to stand pat, and in fact, just got older and worse.

Secondly, in Wilt's rookie season, he took that same LAST PLACE POS roster to a 49-26 record. Give that team 82 games, and it would have been 54-55 win team.

And finally with your above argument. The NBA only had 8-9 teams in the first half of the 60's. Other than Boston, there were very few 50+ win teams, and the Lakers with Baylor and West had the most. And yet, Wilt carried his rosters as far as Baylor and West could carry their's. In fact, I would argue that aside from '61 and '63, the NBA Finals came down to Wilt vs Boston in their eight playoff series.

Of course, your above comments only pertain to '60 from '62. Wilt's Warrior rosters from '63 thru '65 were, aside from Wilt, the equivalent of the '73 Sixers.

Continued...

[Psileas]

Arizin made 3 consecutive all-star appearances from 1960-1962 and Gola made four straight from 1960-1963. We know that at that time every above average started basically made the all-star team but these guys could play. For reference Boston in those years also had around 3 all-stars.

I didn't mean 65+ win seasons but Wilt in his first six seasons never even broke 50 wins. FIFTY!

Although none of these rosters had ever proven to be good enough to get 50 wins in the 60's, if you want to get so technical, Wilt's rookie season record is, per 82 games, equivalent to 50-32. Actually, 52-30, if we include only games when Wilt played. His 2nd season team had the equivalent of 48-34, his 3rd season 50-32 and his 5th one, 49-33. The Warriors' first 50 (or even 45 for that matter) win season after Wilt came in...1972. And they didn't lack HOFers either.


Arizin is probably top 100 all time, Gola not even that. Wilt is a GOAT candidate. We expect more of Wilt.


So, are these 2 HOFers, yes or no? Are we to expect more of Wilt+them or not?


Wilt didn't play good defense in 1963. Worse than in 1962 and much worse than in 1964.

While this may be true, what does qualify as "not good defense" for Wilt? Is a defensively weak season for Wilt the equivalent of a season of a weak defensive center overall? Is there more exclusive data for this than comparing whole team stats through seasons?


You're missing the point. I am saying awful from a winning perspective. The Warriors went 10-27 with Wilt in the lineup. The Sixers were 19-19 with Wilt in the lineup. Those are not good results.

The point is, if a player who's certainly capable of dominating games in various ways doesn't bring the expected results, there's probably something wrong either with his teammates of with the way he's used, unless he severely declines, which wasn't the case for Wilt. Ironically, just 2 seasons after "10-27" Wilt came "68-13" Wilt and I'm pretty sure he didn't suddenly become great, especially since "10-27" Wilt followed a very successful season. So, what's the case exactly? Wilt becoming great, then sucky, then great within practically no time? Btw, the '65 Warriors went 7-38 without Wilt, which means that even a Wilt at his "team worst" added almost 10 wins to a team and led another 1 basket away from the Finals (which counts more than the Sixers' apparent regular season non improvement).


The 1968 Warriors were up 3-1 with homecourt advantage just like last year's Warriors. No way can anyone excuse losing from that position especially considering that Wilt was terrible in games 6 and 7. The 1970 finals are also not a good look. Why he didn't destroy a hobbled Willis Reed in Game 7 is baffling. Not to mention Wilt was a statue on defense in that game.

A 34 y.o, 300 lb man coming off an injury that kept him off for almost a whole season and was at his least athletic, being practically unable to outjump or outmanoeuvre his opponent? You tell me. How many similar cases have been able to dominate under these circumstances?


I totally disagree about coaches always having to tell him.

There are two types of adjustments in the game of basketball. There are macroadjustments which are made between games but there are also microadjustments that are made within the game and often by players themselves. A winning player should be able to see what his team needs in a particular game or even a particular possession. He will set that important screen, come out and contest a guard on defense, even yell out to his teammate to switch rotations... It's those kind of little things that sometimes decide games.

Funnily enough, Wilt, in game footage available, does such little stuff pretty often in games his teams lost. He's contested perimeter shots more than he's usually been credited with (being blamed of "not leaving the paint"), he's given countless screens, not to mention outlet passes, he's kept many blocked shots on play (again, despite criticisms that he loved sending the ball to the stands), etc.
More ironically, there have been some older Wilt's games when he's also taking over scoring for a while and yet, instead of his teammates following suit, they become aloof and the team doesn't perform better, which casts some shadow over the "why wasn't he taking over scoring when he should?" question. E.g, it's telling that whenever a non scoring 1967 Wilt was taking over scoring in the playoffs, his teammates were constantly unable to follow: He scored a seasonal playoff high of 41 on the Royals and they lost. He scored a personal series high of 26 on the Warriors and they lost. He had scored 22 vs the Celtics in the 1st half of Game 5 (already almost a season high) and the Celtics were leading. He cut down his scoring and started passing more in the second half and the Sixers destroyed the Celtics. Examples like these indicate that older Wilt's teammates were totally expecting him to pass instead of dominate scoring to make them feel useful and play up to their potential. That wasn't the case with younger Wilt, which means that it wasn't always the safest choice for older Wilt's team to have Wilt take over scoring. His teammates were frequently seeming to get cold when older Wilt had the ball. I repeat that this only happened with an older Wilt. A younger Wilt was getting way better team results in his hotter nights.

[LAZERUSS]

Arizin is probably top 100 all time, Gola not even that. Wilt is a GOAT candidate. We expect more of Wilt.


So you expect Wilt to carry a fading Arizin, who, like Gola, was awful in his '61 and '62 playoffs, to have done what?

Sorry, but how come a prime Kareem couldn't get to a winning record with his '76 Lakers, which had Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, and came in a much more watered down NBA?

Again, Wilt took the '62 Warriors, with his "HOFers" puking all over the floor, to within an eyelash of at least getting past the Celtics, and likely would have beaten the Lakers in the Finals. If nothing else, had Wilt's teammates done anything at all, they would have gone to the Finals, where, given what we know about Chamberlain vs the Lakers in the decade of the 60's, Wilt would hold virtually every Finals scoring record in NBA history.


Wilt didn't play good defense in 1963. Worse than in 1962 and much worse than in 1964.

How do you KNOW that? Using Defensive Win Shares as an example, Wilt came in 5th in '63, third in '61, and second in '60 and '62 (and '64.) The reality was, Chamberlain didn't have the luxury of defensive stars that Russell was surrounded with. We simply don't know much about TEAM defensive stats, when Wilt had ZERO teammates playing defense, while Russell had KC Jones, Satch Sanders, Havlicek, and even Cousy and Heinsohn among the top defenders in the league.

Furthermore, Wilt reduced his opposing centers every bit as much as Russell did his. Walt Bellamy scored as much against Russell as he did against Wilt, and in fact, had higher scoring games against Russell. From DAY ONE. A focused Wilt was an even GREATER one-on-one defender than Russell. In his first H2H with Bellamy, who came into the game averaging 30 points, Chamberlain blocked nine of Bellamy's shots in the first half...and outscored him, 51-14!

Oh, and how about Wilt against Russell in the '60 regular season? Russell shot a career high .467 against the NBA. In his H2H's with Wilt that season... .393.

Chamberlain was also, and without question, the game's greatest rim protector. Again, from DAY ONE. Hell, there are articles crediting him with 17 blocks in his very first game. And he was STILL the best rim-protector in his very LAST season.


You're missing the point. I am saying awful from a winning perspective. The Warriors went 10-27 with Wilt in the lineup. The Sixers were 19-19 with Wilt in the lineup. Those are not good results.

Interesting. The Warriors also went 7-36 with HOFer Thurmond as their starting center that same season. Or on pace for a 11-59 record. Oh, and then they drafted Rick Barry the very next season. With a prime Thurmond and a rookie Barry putting up 26 ppg... a 35-45 record. Which was not much better than Chamberlain had by himself in his '63 season.

Of course, you rip Wilt for his '63 and '65 seasons, and then ask how come Chamberlain didn't get 48 wins out of those rosters like he did in '64? Well, again, remove Wilt from those teams, and they likely would be in the '73 Sixers category. But, how about this...why don't we reverse that thinking and just MARVEL at Wilt taking, arguably the worst roster in NBA history, to 48 wins in '64? And then single-handedly beating a Hawks team that had FAR more talent than the Warriors had. And then making the '64 a competitive Finals, despite being MASSIVELY OUTGUNNED, ...AND, despite his two "HOF" teammates, rookie Thurmond, and Rodgers....shooting .326 and .258 respectively.

I would ask you...how come Kareem's '77 Lakers, who had the best record in the league...how come they were swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's? And PLEASE, don't give me any injury excuses, either. True, he destroyed Walton in that series, but then again, Chamberlain just annihilated Russell in the '64 Finals, as well.

One more thing...

In Russell's rookie season, he played in 48 games, and missed 24. In the games he played Boston went 28-20. In the games he missed, they went 16-8. Looks like Russell was a liabilty, doesn't it?

[LAZERUSS]

The 1968 Warriors were up 3-1 with homecourt advantage just like last year's Warriors. No way can anyone excuse losing from that position especially considering that Wilt was terrible in games 6 and 7. The 1970 finals are also not a good look. Why he didn't destroy a hobbled Willis Reed in Game 7 is baffling. Not to mention Wilt was a statue on defense in that game.

We have been over the '68 and '70 Finals a TON here. And YOU KNOW what happened in BOTH.

But, for those that need some evidence...here goes... '68 first...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

The Sixers that ran away with the best record in the league and were a dominant defending champion that had destroyed the eight-time defending champs in the '67 EDF's....

... were NOWHERE near the team that made the '68 playoffs.


Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.

Wilt's Sixers were without HOFer Cunningham the entire series. The same Cunningham that was averaging 21 ppg on a staggering .558 FG% in the first round when he broke his wrist. A HUGE loss.

But, even without Cunningham, the Sixers still forged a 3-1 series lead. BUT, in game five, BOTH Luke Jackson, and Wali Jones sustained injuries, and were worthless the rest of the series.

Of course, Wilt himself was dealing with an ASSORTMENT of injuries. Look up a calf tear and you will find that typically it takes up to six weeks to heal, and walking on crutches for a couple. Wilt played nearlyu every minute of that series with a calf tear, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout. BTW, it was a similar injury as to what reduced Willis Reed to nothing more than a part-time statue in the last three games of the '70 Finals.

BTW, Kareem missed a clinching game of the Finals with a sprained ankle for cryingoutloud. Here was Wilt, PLAYING...and hanging these "awful" games of 22-25-7 with an injury that typically required CRUTCHES. Of course, Wilt didn't have the luxury of Magic Johnson to carry his roster to a title, either.

BTW, even with that injury, Chamberlain was putting up a 24-23 .539 series in the first five games. In fact, in what could have been the clincher in game five, he CRUSHED Russell, ...outscoring him, 28-8, outrebounding him, 30-24, and outshooting him, 11-21 to 4-10. And even a crippled Wilt was still putting up games of 27 and 34 rebounds in the last two games of that series.

None other than Bill Russell commented, "A lessor man would not have played." Which, of course meant, NO ONE else would have been playing with those injuries...much less putting up a 22-25-7 series.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

1970 Finals?

For all this "heroic" Willis Reed nonsense...what is almost never mentioned, was that Chamberlain had sustained a devastating knee injury in the ninth game of the regular season, and had MAJOR KNEE SURGERY shortly thereafter. It was basically the same injury that took Elgin Baylor six months to even come back from, and then another full season before he was anywhere near the player he had been before (in fact, he was never the same again.)

Furthermore, Wilt was nearly 33 when he was injured, and around 300 lbs. The question wasn't whether he would return that season (virtually ALL medical opinion wrote off the rest of that season), but whether he would have difficulty even walking again.

And, then the Lakers came into the Finals as a decided under-dog (primarily BECAUSE Wilt was nowhere near 100%), and without HCA.

And in the first four games of that Finals, a one-legged Wilt battled a relatively healthy Reed to a draw (with Reed outplaying Chamberlain in games one and three, and Wilt outplaying Reed in games two and four.)

Furthermore, when Reed went down with his muscle tear in game five, his team was DOWN by ten points. As Robert Cherry wrote following an interview with Leonard Koppett (a New York Times writer at the time)...Koppett claimed that the OFFICIALS won that game five for NY. Interesting too, that West took two shots in the entire second half, and Wilt three.

Of course, even a one-legged Wilt could dominate Nate Bowman in game six. BTW, Nate Bowman was the equivalent of Todd "bad feet" MaCulloch, the same center that Shaq just murdered in his '02 Finals. Chamberlain's game six of 45-27 and on a .741 FG% in also often overlooked in that Finals.

As for game seven...you can watch it on YouTube. I have long maintained that a team of Jordan's would not have beaten the Knicks that game. They came out on fire, hitting 15 of their first 21 shots, and the game was over by halftime. But those that blame Wilt had better watch it again. He was the ONLY Laker that played well. And he was being doubled, swarmed, and fouled nearly every time he touched the ball. In the first half he shot 5-10 from the field (and yes, 1-8 from the line), but the rest of his teammates shot 33%.

And why doesn't WEST get the blame for that loss? He was just horrific in tje first half. He was struggling to even get the ball past half court against Frazier, and had several turnovers, as well as well as shooting like shit.

For the game, Wilt outscored "FMVP" Reed, 21-4, outrebounded Reed 24-3, and outshot him from the field, 10-16 to 2-5.

In the last three games of that series, Wilt outscored "FMVP" Reed, 88-10, outrebounded Reed, 71-3, and outshot him from the floor, .708 to .400. Granted, Reed missed one of those games, but it just illustrates how ridiculous that FMVP voting was. BTW, Chamberlain's seven game statline? 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%. And he was easily LA's best player in that series (West went to shit at the worst possible time)...all playing only four months after major knee surgery.

Finally, even you claimed that Wilt was a "statue on defense" in that series. Totally agree. Just watch footage from that series (there is some of game five, and all of game seven on YouTube), and then compare it with Wilt's '72 Finals. Game five of the '72 Finals is also on YouTube, and in it Wilt is blocking eight shots, and had a couple of VERY questionable goal tends in which he blocking shots above the square. BTW, Chamberlain scored 24 points on 10-14 shooting in that game five, but anyone watching it would see that he could easily have scored 40.

The difference between Wilt in the '70 and '72 Finals is like night-and-day.

[Dray n Klay]

LAZ trying to make excuses for 3" :roll:





Just stop it, we all witnessed his SHRINKAGE on the biggest stage (1965, 1968, 1969, 1971 etc)

[LAZERUSS]

Of course "2/6" is stuff only trolls would use. Still I think most basketball historians would consider Wilt an underachiever because of his lack of winning. Wilt gained and lost motivation from year to year. By his own admission he had other interests in life, namely women and driving fast cars. And when he committed to basketball, much of the time his focus was on breaking records and not winning. His sheer talent alone and periods of focus led to two championships but he left a lot on the table. From the talent standpoint, I have no argument with calling Wilt the GOAT but he wouldn't be the first player I would pick on an all time draft to build my team around and I think the majority of the community would support me on that.

Lack of "winning" as in RINGS?

Chamberlain played 14 seasons in his NBA career. He played on 12 winning teams, and 13 that went to the playoffs. In those 13 playoff seasons, he won two rings, and lost to the eventual champion, 10 times. FIVE of those series losses were in game seven's, and four of those were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And he was the best player on the floor in four of those series, and outplayed his HOF counterpart in all five. And injuries to either his teammates, himself, or both, contributed to most of those losses.

He also led four teams to the best record in the league, and had four teams win 60+ games. His '67 Sixers went 68-13, and his '72 Lakers went 69-13.

And from '59-60 thru '64-65, his teams were MASSIVELY OUTGUNNED. Hell, his '65-66 team was also outgunned, as well. And yet, he nearly carried the '62 and '65 teams to a title, and was competitive in '60 and '64.

John Wooden summed it up best. Swap rosters (and coaches) with Russell in the decade of the 60's, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.


Now, as far as UNDERACHIEVING goes...look no further than your boy Kareem. Had MAGIC not arrive in '80, Kareem likely would have retired sometime in the mid-80's and with only ONE ring.

A PRIME Kareem, in his first TEN seasons, went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring (and with the easiest run to a title in playoff history.) He had FAR more talented rosters in '78 and '79 than the Sonics had, and yet were blown out by them in both seasons. He also missed the playoffs entirely in the mid-70's. Not only that, but from '74 thru '79, the NBA had the weakest champions of any decade post '59. Teams with 52-30, 48-34, and even 44-38 were winning rings, and teams that had 40-42 were making the Finals. Hell, in Kareem's one title, his 66-16 Bucks swept a 42-40 team in the Finals.

You blame Wilt for his team's '63 season. In a season in which Chamberlain ran away with the scoring title, as well as the rebounding and FG% titles. In fact, Chamberlain played 47.6 mpg that season, and led the NBA in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories, including WIN SHARES. Oh, and he set a STILL PER record of 31.8.

Let's compare that with Kareem's 75-76 season, shall we?

Before we get to his '75-76 season, we need to take a look at his '71-72 season. In his '71-72, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the field. Furthermore, that 44.2 mpg came on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential.

Jump to his '75-76 season. First of all, as bad as his roster was, it still had Gail Goodrich and his 20 ppg, as well as Cazzie Russell, and in a watered down and weak NBA.

He came to a team that had gone 30-52, and to his credit, he got them to 40-42. BUT, he did so playing 41.2 mpg, and scoring 27.7 ppg on a .529 FG%. He did lead the league in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg, but even that was deceptive. Gone were Wilt, and Thurmond, and the same players that Chamberlain was running away from in rpg, were right behind Kareem.

Clearly, the '76 Lakers needed a '72 Kareem, but instead, they got an unmotivated KAJ who often went thru the motions. This was a prime Kareem's opportunity to put up a "Wilt-like" season, and instead, he dramatically UNDERACHIEVED.

Look, I have a peak Kareem (circa '70 thru '72) almost on a prime Wilt's level. But I have long maintained that after Thurmond outplayed him in their '72 post-season H2H, and then after Wilt reduced him to a .414 shooter in the last four games of the '72 WCF's that he never fully recovered. And the facts support it, as well. A '70 to '72 Kareem was just destroying guys like Cowens, Lanier, and others, but from the mid-70's until end of the decade, those same guys were playing him to a draw. Gilmore, as well. And, of course, Moses was just abusing him from '79 on.

And while even Wilt's best teams had players like Greer, Walker, Cunningham (whom he only had for ONE full playoff run BTW), or West, Baylor, or West and Goodrich...he was facing all-time great teams, as well. The Dynasty, or the HOF-laden Knicks, or the supposed next great dynasty (KAJ's Bucks)...most all of those teammates played poorly in the majority of their post-seasons with Wilt.

Meanwhile, KAJ had the likes of MAGIC and WORTHY, guys that ELEVATED their play in the post-season, as well as stacked rosters with the likes of Wilkes, Cooper, Scott, Thompson, Green, and McAdoo.

Had Wilt had the rosters of the Showtime Lakers, he most assuredly would have won six rings. And likely more.

[francesco totti]

https://s22.postimg.org/95oxp3ha9/Screen_Shot_2016_11_15_at_7_18_15_AM.png

[LAZERUSS]

PSILEAS...Too bad if that's what happens. I'd consider Wilt an underachiever if he underachieved, plain and simple. I don't care what his teams do in the end. If Wilt needs to change something, it's up to his coaches to tell him. Someone who has the talent and ability to dominate almost in any way, but not any way altogether (that's freaking impossible to anyone - scoring a lot, rebounding a lot, playmaking a lot, defending a lot, who the hell has ever done that? Not even the famed 2016 LeBron Finals featured such a player) has to have some good guidance in order to win while dominating. Not having good guidance and being left to just do whatever you deem right is not something that will earn the title of the underachiever by me.

100% agreed.

TEAMS win championships.

Why didn't Jordan win a ring every season? How come he played on FIVE losing teams? How come he was SWEPT twice in the FIRST ROUND, including his highest scoring season? And, why did his scoring and efficiency decline dramatically from his regular season NB numbers, when he faced the Bad Boys from '88 thru '91 (and particularly the prime Pistons from 88-90)?

How come a PRIME Kareem could only go to TWO Finals, and only win ONE ring in his first ten seasons? Hell, he was was getting blown out in the first round, beaten by vastly less talented teams twice, getting swept with HCA, and completely missing the playoffs two years in a row. And how come Kareem's playoff scoring and efficiency fell off the cliff when he faced Thurmond and Wilt in five post-season series?

How come Bird lost with HCA SEVEN times (BTW, he was awful in a couple of those)? And only won three rings with teams that had as many as FOUR other HOFers?

How come Shaq was SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career, and nearly EIGHT? How come he could only go 1-8 against Greg Ostertag in the post-season? How come his scoring and FG% dropped dramatically from his regular season numbers against the Robinson Spurs from '99 thru '02? How come he couldn't beat Ben Wallace and with HCA?

LeCHOKE? Lost FOUR TIMES in his Finals, and was just AWFUL in TWO of them. And ZERO impact in two more. Hell, had his ass saved TWICE in the Finals by TEAMMATES. How come he QUIT MULTIPLE times in his post-seasons? How could he allow a role player, coming off the bench, to not only shut him down while single-covering him, but then to watch him hoisting the FMVP as well?

Kobe? Hell, even with his "5-2" Finals record, it can be argued that he has been the WORST Top-10 Finals performer of all-time. Not to mention some other embarrassing post-season runs.

Hakeem? Truly laughable. King of the First Round Exits. Lost in the first round EIGHT times, and most all of those were blowouts. Only played on four teams that won 50+ games, and with a high of 58. If TEAM success is a measuring stick, he may not even be Top-50.

Even Russell, whose teams beat Wilt's seven times in the post-season...was either outplayed, or downright CRUSHED by Wilt in EVERY post-season H2H, and by a HUGE margin in their 49 playoff games. When Wilt finally had a roster that was the equal of Russell's (and healthy), Wilt and his Sixers just DESTROYED Russell's Dynasty, and in fact, were four points away from a SWEEP in game four.

BTW, and again... Wilt faced Russell and his Dynasty in EIGHT playoff series, with seven of them coming in either his first or second round. When MJ faced the Bad Boys, four times, his numbers dropped considerably. When Shaq faced the Robinson-led Spurs three times...big decline. When Kareem faced Wilt and Thurmond five times...huge drop. And yet, Chamberlain was battling the greatest dynasty, with the best defenses of the 60's, and the GOAT defensive center... EIGHT times, and nearly all of them in the first or second round.

Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was the best player on the floor in the vast majority of them. Not only that, but he was outplaying his HOF counterpart centers in virtually all of them, as well. Only KAJ's '72 WCF's would be questionable, and even then, those that actually watched that series claimed that Wilt outplayed him (Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED him.)

In terms of pure dominance...no one else has been close. At last glance, Pollack had Wilt with some 90 NBA records. The REALITY was/is...Chamberlain holds HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of NBA records. Not only that, but he is also second and third on those lists. And many of them will never be broken.

He played on inferior teams that generally were injury-riddled and under-performed, and still won two rings, and lost five game seven's to the eventual champions, including four by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. He was a few points away from 4-5 more rings (and Russell with four less.) Where would a Wilt with 6-7 rings rank all-time?

Of course, John Wooden said it best...had Wilt swapped rosters with Russell, and it likely would have been WILT holding all those rings.

How about a Wilt with 11 rings?

[aj1987]

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[LAZERUSS]

The King of QUIT...LeQUIT.

Began early in his career...

http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2655852



James was widely criticized on sports talk radio and by TV pundits for leaving the floor in the final seconds Tuesday night in a 104-95 overtime loss to Atlanta. After missing a 3-pointer with 15 seconds left, he began walking off the floor toward Cleveland's locker room while the Hawks dribbled out the clock.

Then came his infamous '07 Finals.

Shot a horrific .356 in a four game sweep. And in that game four one point loss... 10-30 from the floor, and 2-6 from the line.

In his ONE Eastern Conference series in which he actually faced a great team, the '08 Celtics... shot .355 from the floor.

Then came the '09 ECF's, where he "led" his 66-16 team down the drain against the Magic. Let's ask his OWNER about that one...

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....ron_james.html


Gilbert also said he believes James quit on the Cavs in Game 6 of their series in 2009 against Orlando.

"Go back and look at the tape," he said. "How many shots did he take?"

Sure enough...here was the box score from that game...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905300ORL.html


And, as bad as that QUIT JOB was, he followed it up with his performance in the 2010 ECSF's...

Again, let's ask his OWNER...

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....ron_james.html


"He quit," Gilbert said. "Not just in Game 5, but in Games 2, 4 and 6. Watch the tape. The Boston series was unlike anything in the history of sports for a superstar."

And we have the famous footage of game five as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...005110CLE.html

3-14 from the floor.


2011 Finals. Goes from leading scorer on his team, to dropping 10 ppg and only third leading scorer. Watches Bus Rider Wade choke away the clinching game six. Gets badly outplayed by Jason Terry, and can't score a point when defended by the 5-8 JJ Barea.

How about this game four in that series...

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...mis-three.html


The turning point of the series took place in game four when Nowitzki overcame a 100-plus degree fever and scored 10 of his 21 points in the fourth quarter--including a driving layup that put the Mavs up 84-81 with 14.4 seconds remaining--as Dallas tied the series at 2-2. It is no coincidence that the momentum shifted precisely during the first game in this series when James clearly quit (an accusation I base not on numbers but on observable effort level at both ends of the court); after game four, some media members threw around words like "disengaged" and "disinterested" and "detached" to describe James' performance but those terms are just fancy ways to avoid bluntly speaking the truth: James is the most talented player in the NBA, there is nothing wrong with him physically and he quit during a pivotal playoff game. It was funny to hear Jon Barry--who must be the most incompetent NBA analyst who ever actually played in the NBA--declare that if James were still a Cavalier then we would know to expect a big performance from him in game five but that because James now plays for the more talented Heat it was not clear what he would do. Apparently, Barry forgot that James quit versus Boston in game five last year--but Magic Johnson did not let Barry (or James) off the hook, declaring, "I'm sorry, I can't go with that. I can't go with that. I played with two Hall of Famers myself and I didn't say, 'I've got to worry about what Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) is going to do. I've got to worry about what James (Worthy) is going to do.' I came out to dominate if it was a big game and we needed to win that game. He's got to come out with that type of mindset. Let Wade play his game. Let Bosh play his game. He's got to deliver. That's why he signed with Miami. He signed to win the championship. He wanted that pressure. Well, guess what--the pressure's on you. So deliver."

All of the deserved criticism James received for quitting in game four should not obscure the reality that even though Wade played hard throughout the contest he did not distinguish himself in the clutch, missing a key free throw at the :30.1 mark of the fourth quarter that could have tied the score at 81 and then fumbling a pass when he was the first option to attempt a potentially tying three pointer on the game's final possession. Neither miscue should be surprising--Wade is not a great free throw shooter and he has a tendency to be careless with the ball (during his career, Wade turns the ball over 20% more frequently than Kobe Bryant on a per minute basis). It seems like many people have forgotten that before LeBron James became Miami's best player this season Wade's Heat failed to win a single playoff series from 2007-2010.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Continuing...

2013 Finals. Down 3-2 in game six, and playing like shit the entire game, he goes 1-4 in the last four minutes, and in the last seconds of regulation throws up a wild prayer that misses so badly, that an out of position Chris "Can't Do" Bosh taps it out to Ray Allen, who hits the series-saving three. Even in OT, LeChoke chokes, going 1-3. Carried by his teammates to a title.

2014 Finals. The most worthless 28-8-4 .679 TS% performance in Finals history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Plays like shit when the games are close, and then PADS his stats when the games are blowouts.

QUITS on his team in game one, using the famous "menstrual cramps" as an excuse, and the QUITS again in game five...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

Just a KNOWN QUITTER.


2015?

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/0...two-week-break

[QUOTE]ESPN's Brian Windhorst aka "The LeBron Whisperer" made a bombshell appearance on Bill Simmons' podcast yesterday. Face-to-face with Simmons (who was probably squealing inside at all the #insider #information being dropped), Windhorst spilled a few nuggets on how LeBron's first season back with the Cleveland Cavaliers has developed. In addition to mentioning that it's LeBron, not head coach David Blatt calling many of the Cavs' plays, Windhorst told a story about how LeBron had to quit on the team before they'd let him rest up.

[LAZERUSS]

Fact #1 - Lord Chamberlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era

:roll: :roll: :roll:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

http://grantland.com/features/nba-finals-game-6-retro-diary/


6:42: Just wanted to commemorate this moment: Miami down three, gets a rebound and gets the ball to LeBron on the right side of the key, with J.J. Barea defending him one-on-one … and LeBron turns and throws a pass 20 feet backwards to Wade at midcourt. A few seconds later, Miami gives it back to LeBron, who reluctantly backs Barea down to the low post … and bowls him over. Offensive foul. All hail the King!

LeCHOKE also lost a FMVP to a role player coming off the bench.


Shaq?

Went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, including a series in which he averaged 23 ppg on a .493 FG%.

How about his career H2H's against the great Eddy Curry?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Shaquille+O%27Neal&player_id1_select=Shaquille+O%27Neal&player_id1=onealsh01&hint=Eddy+Curry&player_id2_select=Eddy+Curry&player_id2=curryed01

Shaq against the 6-8 Dennis Rodman...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89IQcTPHkRs

And how strong was Shaq?

Who would you take in a bench press contest?

A 400 lb Shaq only a few years after retirement...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2-x-0lAQo

Barely lifts 315.

And now ...the 240 Kevin Durant...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjHnQexeFkc

Easily gets 315 up.

KD >>> stronger than Shaq.


Of course, we KNOW how easily Wilt would have thrown Shaq around, don't we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

[Dray n Klay]

3"...

[LAZERUSS]

3"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-74hRBmuTM

[Big164]

Most consecutive 60 point games: Chamberlain (4)

Most consecutive 50 point games: Chamberlain (7)

Most consecutive 40 point games: Chamberlain (14)

Most consecutive 30 point games: Chamberlain (65)



Most consecutive games won: Chamberlain & Lakers(33 wins)

[CuhGetsBucks]

These threads are highly informative but also very stupid. I can't believe you guys really type all this out and post defensive shares from 1961.

[Big164]

These threads are highly informative but also very stupid. I can't believe you guys really type all this out and post defensive shares from 1961.
And 1961 was over 50 years ago!

doubt anyone will be talking about Lebron's sh.tty mediocre career up in the 2070s.

[aj1987]

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Ilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Ilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Ilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Ilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Ilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Ilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Ilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Ilt Chokerlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Ilt. Ilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Ilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Ilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
i's FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Ilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Ilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Ilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Ilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Ilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Ilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Ilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Ilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Ilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Ilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Ilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)


And now ...the 240 Kevin Durant...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjHnQexeFkc

Easily gets 315 up.

KD >>> stronger than Shaq.
Those were fake weights, you retarded turd. :roll:

[aj1987]

Games 3-5, LeBron put up 33/13/7/2/3 on 53%. He shot 54%, 52%, and 53% during that stretch. Again, those are from games 3-5. Not even including G6, in which Iggy played 30 minutes and LeBron put up 41/16/7/3/3 on 61% TS or G7 in which Iggy played 40 minutes and LeBron put up 27/11/11/2/3.

If we include those games, LeBron averaged 33/12/9/2/3 on 52% after playing terribly in the first two games.

Game 7 - LeBron scored 11 of the Cavs' 18 points in the 4th Q. LeBron scored in one quarter nearly what Wilt averages for his CAREER in the Finals. After GSW went up 4, LeBron scored 6 straight points to keep the Cavs in the game. Scored 8 straight points at one point. Singlehandedly kept the Cavs in the game.

The four minute stretch? Neither team scored a SINGLE point until Kyrie made that incredible 3. LeBron also had the block and the game and title sealing FT in the end.

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s22.postimg.org/wjpp7uq8x/Screen_Shot_2016_09_06_at_11_31_25_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s16.postimg.org/byk2plmv9/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_09_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/fjfy8tret/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_29_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/4l4oqn2th/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_52_PM.png

Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s22.postimg.org/ujhwqjbht/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_38_08_PM.png

Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

[LAZERUSS]

A Jackoff
Those were fake weights, you retarded turd.

BARKLEY's weights were fake you idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2-x-0lAQo


Shaq's weights were REAL. That was the point of the whole thing.
And he barely got 315 up. And 405? He couldn't budge that bar.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I doubt that Shaq could have gotten two more 10 lb plates up, much less two 45's.


As for Wilt...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CqxIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xwANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3715,469887&dq=&hl=en

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6573884&postcount=17

His playing weight was 315 in 1963, and he came to camp at 320 in 1964.

How strong was Wilt in 1964?

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/03/02/608684/meet-the-new-wilt-chamberlain


The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.

Unlike Fat Shaq, Chamberlain was actually to have been KNOWN to WORK OUT in a gym.

Just ask none other than Arnold himself...

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=13904122


As far as the bench press goes...

Here is a 265 lb Dwight Howard....EASILY doing 365 THREE times...

http://www.stack.com/video/2305637272001/dwight-howard-benches-365-pounds

Clearly, with an all out max, he was capable of 400. And a prime Wilt was much bigger and more massive than Dwight ever was.


Of course, we all now KNOW that a 240 lb Kevin DURANT could bench press as much as Shaq...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjHnQexeFkc

In fact, KD does 315 easier than Shaq does.

KD >>>> stronger than Shaq.




Wilt in his 20's was already FAR stronger than a peak Shaq.

[LAZERUSS]

Games 3-5, LeBron put up 33/13/7/2/3 on 53%. He shot 54%, 52%, and 53% during that stretch. Again, those are from games 3-5. Not even including G6, in which Iggy played 30 minutes and LeBron put up 41/16/7/3/3 on 61% TS or G7 in which Iggy played 40 minutes and LeBron put up 27/11/11/2/3.

If we include those games, LeBron averaged 33/12/9/2/3 on 52% after playing terribly in the first two games.

Game 7 - LeBron scored 11 of the Cavs' 18 points in the 4th Q. LeBron scored in one quarter nearly what Wilt averages for his CAREER in the Finals. After GSW went up 4, LeBron scored 6 straight points to keep the Cavs in the game. Scored 8 straight points at one point. Singlehandedly kept the Cavs in the game.

The four minute stretch? Neither team scored a SINGLE point until Kyrie made that incredible 3. LeBron also had the block and the game and title sealing FT in the end.

#2 Kyrie being more clutch than LeBron:

The Cavs were struggling and LeBron scored 11 points in the 4th Q. 8 straight points at one point and scored 6 straight after GSW were up 4 and with all the momentum. Dude absolutely killed their momentum and gave the Cavs a 2pt lead. He also has the game saving block on Iggy.

Irving in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s22.postimg.org/wjpp7uq8x/Screen_Shot_2016_09_06_at_11_31_25_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals:

https://s16.postimg.org/byk2plmv9/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_09_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 3 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/fjfy8tret/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_29_PM.png

LeBron in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s16.postimg.org/4l4oqn2th/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_35_52_PM.png

Kyrie in the 4th Q's of the Finals (last 2 games):

https://s22.postimg.org/ujhwqjbht/Screen_Shot_2016_11_14_at_5_38_08_PM.png

Dude scored 3/2/1 on 36% TS. He gets called the clutch god or whatever for making that one 3 when the game was tied. How the heck can you call LeBron a choker and Kyrie clutch AF, when it's not even close to being true.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG


I already trashed this nonsense.

LePUKE was completely SHUT DOWN when defended ONE-ON-ONE by Iguadala in the '15 Finals. ESPECIALLY in the 4th quarters and OT.

In fact, LeShrinkage's TEAMMATES won game two of that Finals. You know, the game in which LeCLANK shot 11-35, including 2-8 in the 4th quarter and then a laughable 0-4 in OT??!!

As always...it was the Jester's TEAMMATES saving his ass.

And then how about LeCHOKE in the critical game four? 7-22 from the field, and 5-10 from the line in a blowout loss.


Of course, his '14 and '15 Finals were two of the most WORTHLESS Finals in NBA history. ZERO IMPACT in either.


His 2014 Finals were a STATS-PADDING LeShrinkage at his best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Couldn't hit a shot when the games were close, and the PADDED his stats when they were blowouts (which four of the five games were.)


From Game 1 of the 2015 Finals, thru their two regular season H2H's in 15-16, and then thru the first four games of the '16 Finals...the Jester did not have ONE game *(excluding game four of the '16 Finals, when after going 8-18 for the entire game, the Warriors gladly traded layups when treys were needed) in which he shot 50% while Iggy was on the floor. And in most, WAY less. In the '15 Finals alone, LeCHOKE shot just .351 when Iguadala was on the floor.

Iggy... the Jester-Stopper.

[iznogood]

The video of KD bench pressing is so obviously fake you didn't even have to read the description to tell that. Are you really using that as your argument?

[aj1987]

BARKLEY's weights were fake you idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2-x-0lAQo

Shaq's weights were REAL. That was the point of the whole thing.
And he barely got 315 up. And 405? He couldn't budge that bar.

I doubt that Shaq could have gotten two more 10 lb plates up, much less two 45's.
I was talking about KD's video, shit for brains.


I already trashed this nonsense.

LePUKE was completely SHUT DOWN when defended ONE-ON-ONE by Iguadala in the '15 Finals. ESPECIALLY in the 4th quarters and OT.

In fact, LeShrinkage's TEAMMATES won game two of that Finals. You know, the game in which LeCLANK shot 11-35, including 2-8 in the 4th quarter and then a laughable 0-4 in OT??!!

As always...it was the Jester's TEAMMATES saving his ass.

And then how about LeCHOKE in the critical game four? 7-22 from the field, and 5-10 from the line in a blowout loss.

From Game 1 of the 2015 Finals, thru their two regular season H2H's in 15-16, and then thru the first four games of the '16 Finals...the Jester did not have ONE game *(excluding game four of the '16 Finals, when after going 8-18 for the entire game, the Warriors gladly traded layups when treys were needed) in which he shot 50% while Iggy was on the floor. And in most, WAY less. In the '15 Finals alone, LeCHOKE shot just .351 when Iguadala was on the floor.

Iggy... the Jester-Stopper.
You didn't shut down shit, you box-score watching dick muncher. It's painfully obvious you have NEVER watched a single game of basketball in your entire life. I'll post it again:

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG



Of course, his '14 and '15 Finals were two of the most WORTHLESS Finals in NBA history. ZERO IMPACT in either.

His 2014 Finals were a STATS-PADDING LeShrinkage at his best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Couldn't hit a shot when the games were close, and the PADDED his stats when they were blowouts (which four of the five games were.)
LeBron averaged 3.6 points in the 4th Q's in the '14 Finals. He also played only 7 minutes a game in the 4th Q's. In the last 3 games, LeBron only scored 2.7 points a game in the 4th Q. So, LeBron was putting up 25 PPG on nearly 60% shooting over the first 3 quarters. How exactly do you pad your stats in the first 3 quarters? You probably wouldn't know, since you have never actually watched a minute of basketball in your life.

Padding stats is what the mental midget did in the '60's against hilariously terrible competition.

Case in point:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12648992&postcount=25

You posted a ****ing video you OBVIOUSLY did not watch and when I called you out on it, your response was: "I don't care who was defending the 5-8 Barea."

You're a pathetic little cuck. Keep stanning the roided mental midget loser though.

[Big164]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/06/12/sports/basketball/12blog-2/12blog-2-blog480.jpg
http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/6e10/f3cf/6e10f3cf8cf8036cf16325bf6a86c3dc4969a51f.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE]A Jackoff

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[aj1987]

I'm a retarded stan of a roided mental midget choker, who played in the pathetic '60's joke era. Can you please tell me what happened in the '15 Finals, as I've never watched a minute of basketball in my life?
Sure I can.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[LAZERUSS]

A Jackoff

LeBron averaged 3.6 points in the 4th Q's in the '14 Finals. He also played only 7 minutes a game in the 4th Q's. In the last 3 games, LeBron only scored 2.7 points a game in the 4th Q. So, LeBron was putting up 25 PPG on nearly 60% shooting over the first 3 quarters. How exactly do you pad your stats in the first 3 quarters? You probably wouldn't know, since you have never actually watched a minute of basketball in your life.

Padding stats is what the mental midget did in the '60's against hilariously terrible competition.

ACTUALLY it was YOU who didn't watch the 2014 Finals. Of course, being a fan of LeCHOKE, who can blame you.

THE GOAT STATS-PADDED NBA FINALS IN NBA HISTORY.

Just like his WORTHLESS 2015 Finals, in which he shamelessly shot-jacked his team right down the toilet...his 2014 Finals had ZERO IMPACT!

At first glance a 28-8-4 .679 TS% Finals would look sensational.

But, then there was REALITY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

In the five games of the 2014's Finals...four of which were blowouts:

When the Cavs were down by 6-10 points...

42 possessions

LeClank 5-12 13 pts 4 assts.

0.69 PPP

Watch the laughable footage. He was a complete JOKE in crunch time.

Then...when the Spurs were leading by 15+ points throughout the series...

Of his 141 total points, he scored 51 when they were getting routed.

1.11 PPP ...in blowout situations.


Ok, how about some examples...

Game 1:

Heat lead going into the 4th quarter, 80-74.

LePUKE scores...get this... TWO points on 1-3 shooting, in a 110-95 loss.


Game 3:

LeShrivel explodes with 14 first quarter points...and the Heat are DOWN bv 16.
Second quarter, LeShrinkage scores...TWO points. A total of 16...and the Heat are DOWN by 21!

So, in the 3rd quarter LeTINY becomes goes into his normal by-stander mode, and scores TWO points. BUT, his TEAMMATES engineer a comeback, and CUT the deficit down to 11. As we can already see, when LeCRAP shoots in this series, his team gets blownout. When he defers (gives up) his TEAMMATES play well.

In the 4th quarter, LeTO makes THREE quick turnovers before the period is even a couple of minutes old. The Spurs start rolling. Then LeCLANK scores a measley 4 points on 2-4 shooting, and the Spurs go on to rout the Cavs, 111-92.


Game 4:

CLASSIC LePADDER.

He does practically NOTHING in the first half, scoring 9 points...and as he did the entire series...ZERO DEFENSE. The Spurs lead at the half by 19 points, and the game is essentially over.

LePADDER then goes for 19 points in the 3rd quarter. Guess what...the 19 point lead is now 24! ZERO IMPACT with 19 points in a quarter. The Spurs are laughing at the Jester at this point.


Game 5 clincher:

The game is still close at the half, with SA up 47-40.

Then the 3rd quarter happened.

LePADDER makes his first basket at the 4:39 mark...and the Spurs are now up by 19! LeSTENCH scores 9 more meaningless points the rest of the way, and the Spurs waltz to a 17 point title win.


ZERO IMPACT.

A completely WORTHLESS 28-8-4 .679 TS% Finals.

WORTHLESS and with ZERO IMPACT.

LePADDER.

Just like his WORTHLESS and PATHETIC 35.8 ppg on 32 FGAs 2015 Finals.

ZERO IMPACT.

[Dray n Klay]

3" WiltCHOKE ....

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=A JACKOFF] I can show you how worthless and pathetic LeSHIT was in his 2015 Finals with the following giobberish.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[LAZERUSS]

A Jackoff

Case in point:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...2&postcount=25

You posted a ****ing video you OBVIOUSLY did not watch and when I called you out on it, your response was: "I don't care who was defending the 5-8 Barea."

WHERE DID I CLAIM THAT LeSHIT was defending the 5-6 Barea?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12648980&postcount=23

[QUOTE]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...106090DAL.html

17 points on 6-11 shooting as compared to the Jester's 17 on 8-19.

Barea DOMINATED that game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK9jBmSXCmk

Of course, when the Mavs needed to stop LeFLOP, they simply put Barea on him...

http://grantland.com/features/nba-fi...6-retro-diary/

[B]6:42: Just wanted to commemorate this moment: Miami down three, gets a rebound and gets the ball to LeBron on the right side of the key, with J.J. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Barea defending him one-on-one

[LAZERUSS]

IGGY!!!

:bowdown:

Again, Iguadala, the well-known Jester Dominator, was injured in game's six and seven.

So, let's examine your stats more fully shall we?

Game three of the '16 Finals:

LePuke shot an overall 14-26, with 1 trey. When Iggy was on him... 9-20 with zero three-pointers. I'll cover this "clutch" LeChoke more in a few, but in the 4th quarter of a blowout, Shrinkage went 0-1 against Iggy, and after Iggy exited, again in a blowout loss, the Padder went an unnecessary 4-5.

Game four of the '16 Finals:

LeTiny shot an overall 11-21. And looking at his 4th quarter stats, you would think he really stepped up in a relatively close game. Of course, the Jester fans like yourself don't even watch 4th quarters of his games, because, as you all know, he will puke all over the floor in the most critical moments. A career CHOKER. In any case, LePuke had shot an overall 8-18 against Iggy, and in the 4th quarter, he had gone his usual 2-6 shit-like performance. Down by 9, with less than a minute to go, and and with the Cavs desperately needing THREE's, the Warriors conceded the layup...and guess what, your boy LeCrap took them on three straight possessions. And essentially trading layups for Chokurry FTs...in a loss. He finished 11-21, but was actually 8-18 when until he was given three straight hoops. And again, 2-6 in the 4th until the Warriors laughingly handed him those hoops. The ultimate stats-padder!

Game five of the '16 Finals. If we remove those three "gifts" from game four, the Jester had gone a string of 12 straight games (including the '15 Finals and the two regular season H2H's in '16) of shooting less than 50% against Iggy. In game five he FINALLY broke thru....barely. He shot 16-30 overall. However, with the game still in doubt in the 4th quarter, LeClank shot his usual 2-7. His teammates of course carried the Cavs in that quarter, and Tiny was able to sneak off the court at about the five minute mark.

Game six of the '16 Finals. Iggy injured his back early on, and was a crippled shell the rest of the series. Shrinkage took full advantage, going 16-27, and then 6-9 from the floor in the 4th. Only his second 50%+ 4th quarter shooting performance in his 15 straight H2H's with Iggy since game one of the '15 Finals. And the first occurred in that game one of the '15 Finals. HOWEVER, in the OT in game one of the Finals, LeChoke went 1-4. So, if you include his pathetic OT effort, the Jester would only put up ONE 4th quarter, in 15 straight games, of at least 50% shooting.

Game seven of the '16 Finals. You put up this exaggeration about LeChoke putting up 11 straight points. Let's examine that, shall we? In that small span, the Jester shot 3-4 from the floor. From the last 4:14 of the game, LePuke went a trembling 0-4. So, in a span of about seven minutes, LeFoldo went 3-4, and the rest of the ENTIRE GAME...in his 40 other minutes... he shot 6-20! Including the usual 0-4 in the last four minutes of the game.

Keep in mind that Iguadala was still a shell in that game seven, as well. Furthermore, the two teams combined to shoot .396 in that game seven...Shrinkage? .375. The two teams combined to shoot an eFG% of .458. LeChoke? .396. The two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501. LeFlop? .475.

So, in his 4th quarters, LeFlop shot an overall 22-44 (.500). Include his treys, and it was .534. BUT, when Iggy was on the floor in those 4th quarters, it dropped to 18-39, or a .462 FG%. And then, remove those three "gift" layups at the end of game four, and he shot 15-36 against Iggy...or .417. Include his treys against Iggy, and his eFG% was still only .444. Finally, remove LeShit's game six 4th quarter, when Iggy was a cripple...and he would have shot 9-27 against Iggy (including his usual game seven blanks)...or a .333 FG%, and a .370 eFG%!

Iggy...the Jester Stopper.


Oh, the Cavs and Warriors played twice in the 15-16 regular season, as well.

Game 1: A bad 10-26 for LeClank. With Iggy on him... 7-22 (with 0 treys.)
4th quarter? His usual... 2-8.

Game 2: A 132-98 blowout loss that wasn't as close as the final score indicated. Shrinkage went a no-impact 7-16 and a DNP in the 4th.

Let's recap the Jester's '15 Finals, as well. By now everyone knows that he put up one of the all-time WORST shooting performances in NBA Finals history. Not only did he shoot a horrific .398, he did so on an unfathomable 32 FGAs per game. All while the Warriors SINGLED him. And as pathetic as that .398 FG% was, when he was defended by The Jester Stopper... Iguadala...he shot .351! No wonder Iggy, a role player coming off the bench, easily won the FMVP.

I won't break down LePuke's numbers against Iggy in that series. Everyone knows it was a DRAMATIC difference. But, instead I will just post LeClanks game numbers...before getting to his 4th quarters.

Game one: 18-38
Game two: 11-35
Game three: 14-34
Game four: 7-22 (BTW, this was essentially the series.)
Game five: 15-34
Game six: 13-33 (what a clinching performance)

Ok, we can all see that a blind man would have shot as well.

BUT, how about the "clutch" LeChoke. You know...the 4th quarter LeFoldo.

Game 1: Actually shot pretty well. 5-9. Unfortunately for the LeBrick...the game went into OT. Where he shot 0-4 with a couple of critical turnovers. For the entire 4th quarter and OT... 5-13.

Game 2: This is a "peak" LeChoke at his "clutch" best. Went 2-8 in the 4th quarter, but somehow his teammates kept the Cavs into the game, and it went into OT. Where Shrinkage then went his usual 0-4. A combined 2-12 from the 4th quarter thru OT...in a WIN!

Game 3: Somehow LeCrap's teammates were able to win this game despite LeCoward's 4th quarter shooting of 2-7.

Game 4: The Jester with another LeChoke's "peak" performance. In the biggest game of the entire series, Shrinkage went a wimpy 7-22. And he didn't even try in the 4th quarter, going a feeble 0-2.

Game 5: Probably LePuke's best game of any in which he faced a healthy Iggy. Shot 6-13 in the 4th, on with 3 treys. But all in a 13 point loss.

Game 6: The clincher. 13-33 overall, and 5-12 in the futile 4th.

For the '15 Finals, LePuke shot an overall 21-59 in his 4th quarters and OT's, for a .356 FG%. Even with his treys, his overall eFG% was only .415. All accomplished by being SINGLED.


THAT was the "clutch" Court Jester. The man known as Shrinkage lived up (or down) to his name.

[Dray n Klay]

http://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/print/5.500/8.000/break/images-medium-5/kareem-abdul-jabbar-blocks-wilt-chamberlain-retro-images-archive.jpg


Absolutely dominated 3" everytime they matched up



You could just see Wilt SHRIVELING beneath the pressure

[LAZERUSS]

A Jackoff

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Ilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Ilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Ilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Ilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Ilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Ilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Ilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Ilt Chokerlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Ilt. Ilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Ilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Ilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
i's FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Ilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Ilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Ilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Ilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Ilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Ilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Ilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Ilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Ilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Ilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Ilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

'60: In Wilt's rookie season he took what had been a LAST PLACE team the year before, to a 49-26 record. In the first round of the playoffs he single-handedly carried that roster to a series win with a 39-23 series, and in the winner-take-all closing game...put up a 53-22 game.

Then, he took a roster, that was man-for-man, badly outclassed, to a game six, two point loss, against a HOF-laden 59-16 Celtics team, in a series in which he averaged 31-27, and on a .500 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 overall. Oh, and in a must win game five, all he could do was crush Russell with a massive 50-35 game.

'61? Yep...all Wilt's fault. All he did was hang a 37-23 series, while his teammates collectively shot .332 from the field. But yes, blame Wilt's missed FTs. Amazing how Shaq played on two title teams in which he had Finals of .387 and .292 from the line. Must have been his FT shooting that won those series.

'62? In the first round of the playoffs, Chamberlain averaged a 37-23, and in the clinching game five do-or-die game, he put up the greatest triple double in playoff history... a 56-35-12 game.

Then Chamberlain dragged essentially the same last place roster that he inherited in his rookie season, but now older and worse, to a game seven, two point loss, in a series in which he averaged 34-27. He also hung two 40+ point games, including one game in which he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him, 37-20. In that game seven, newspaper recaps at the time, and opposing Boston players praised Wilt's DEFENSE. And in the last minute, Wilt scored Philly's last five points, to tie the game, but Same Jones hit the game-winner. BTW, the Celtics were favored in EVERY game of that seven game series. Oh, and BTW, Wilt went 8-9 from the LINE in that game seven. Funny how the poster (who actually stole this garbage from some idiot who posted this years ago)...missed that, huh?

'63? Yep, and he did so while leading the league in FIFTEEN statistical categories, including...get this... WIN SHARES.

But, more on that in a moment...

'64? Wilt essentially took that SAME exact roster that went 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record. The only addition was rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, out of position, and shot .395 from the field.

In the WDF's, Chamberlain faced the ONLY Western Division foe until the '67 Finals. How did he perform? Put up a 39-23 .559 FG% series (in a post-season NBA that shot .420.) And in the clinching game seven win... a 39-30-10 game.

In the Finals, Wilt's Warriors were outgunned in HOFers, 8-3, which was bad enough. But Wilt's two "HOFers" were rookie Thurmond, a part-timer, and Guy Rodgers, who was the worst shooter of his era. And yes, they lost the series, 4-1, but the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. In those two losses, Chamberlain hung games of 27-38, and 30-27. For the series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, outrebounded Russell, per game, 28-25, and outshot Russell from the floor by a .517 to .386 margin (again, in a post-season that shot .420 overall.) Oh, and how did Wilt's two "HOF" teammates do? Thurmond shot .326 from the floor, and Rodgers shot .258. And there are those that claim that LeShrinkage had no help in his '15 Finals.

[aj1987]

ACTUALLY it was YOU who didn't watch the 2014 Finals. Of course, being a fan of LeCHOKE, who can blame you.

THE GOAT STATS-PADDED NBA FINALS IN NBA HISTORY.

Just like his WORTHLESS 2015 Finals, in which he shamelessly shot-jacked his team right down the toilet...his 2014 Finals had ZERO IMPACT!

At first glance a 28-8-4 .679 TS% Finals would look sensational.

But, then there was REALITY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

In the five games of the 2014's Finals...four of which were blowouts:

When the Cavs were down by 6-10 points...
The Cavs didn't play in the '14 Finals, *** boy. You literally just proved my point.


WHERE DID I CLAIM THAT LeSHIT was defending the 5-6 Barea?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12648980&postcount=23



NOTHING about LeSHRIVEL defending the 5-4 Barea. BUT, the 5-2 white guy Barea DID not only DEFEND LeSHRINKAGE...he SHUT HIM OUT!
What? Looks like you completely lost it.

Lets talk about your mental midget of a lover though:

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[aj1987]

I'm a retarded stan of a roided mental midget choker, who played in the pathetic '60's joke era. Can you please tell me what happened in the '15 Finals, as I've never watched a minute of basketball in my life?
Sure I can.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[LAZERUSS]

'65? This is one of my favorites.

Wilt was TRADED at mid-season, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, for three players and a boatload of cash. Even with Wilt they only went 40-40.

However, he SINGLE-HANDEDLY destroyed Oscar's stacked 48-32 roster in the first round, which included a clinching performance of 38-26.

Then, he took that massively outgunned roster, to a game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics team at the peak of their dynasty. For the series, all Wilt could do was put up the most dominant performance in NBA playoff history...and against the GOAT defensive center in NBA history. Averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, had a 25.1 TRB%, blocked 7.0 shots per game, shot .555 from the floor, in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall;and had a TS% of .575...in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot a .465 TS%. A staggering full 11 percentage points above the series average.

And how about this? Wilt led BOTH teams in MPG, PPG, RPG, BPG, TRB%, FG%, and TS%.

And in game seven, Wilt scored 30 points, including Philly's last eight points, with 32 rebounds, and on an .800 FG%, and on a phenomenal .724 TS%. His teammates collectively shot 29-75 from the floor (.373) in a one point loss. And if Hondo hadn't stolen the ball, it would have been the greatest upset in NBA playoff history.

As for "once again being outscored by Sam Jones in a game seven"...Jones was a GUARD. BTW, Chamberlain was the leading scorer in these Celtic series in '60, '62, '64, '65, and '66. He also outscored Jones in '67. So Jones was barely able to oustcore Wilt in '68, and then in '69. Enough of the "Jones outscored Wilt in game sevens" nonsense.

'66? In that elimination game, Chamberlain had 46 points (19-34 from the field.) He also shot .509 from the floor in that series, while his teammates collectively shot .352.

For the series, all Chamberlain could do was average 28 ppg, 30 rpg, and shoot .509 from the field.

BTW, Wilt led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG% that season, all while leading his team to the best record in the league.

The poster left out Wilt's '67 post-season, so here goes:

First round, Wilt averages ...get this... 28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%.

In the EDF's, and against Russell's 60-21 Celtics, Chamberlain destroys the Dynasty in a near sweep. He outscores Russell, per game, 22-11; ourebounds him, per game, 32-23; outassists per game, 10-6; and outshoots him from the field by a .556-.358 margin.

In the clincher, Wilt outscored Russell, 29-4; outrebounded him, 36-21; outshot him from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5; and outassisted him, 13-7. He even found time to record 7 blocks.

In the Finals, Wilt buries Nate Thurmond in Nate's peak season. He outscores him in five of the six games; outrebounds him in five of the six games; outassists him in five of the six games; and outshot him in every game. BTW, he outshot Nate by a .560 to .343 margin. Oh, and a peak Kareem faced Thurmond in three straight post-season series, and shot .486, .428, and .405 against him.

Overall, a 21-29-9 .579 playoff run. And in series in which he annihilated his HOF peers.

[LAZERUSS]

'68? The Sixers were DECIMATED by injuries in that post-season, that they weren't even favored against the Knicks in the first round.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=13

Chamberlain, himself, was playing with multiple injuries, including a tear in his calf muscle. And again, they were without HOFer Billy Cunningham the entire series.

So here was Wilt playing with injuries that we KNOW that guys like Kareem, LeChoke, and Reed would not have (my god, LeFlop was carried off the floor with MENSTRUAL CRAMPS for cryingoutloud.) Not only that, but Wilt hung a 22-25-7 series.

It was truly amazing that he even played at all, and it was just as amazing that a Sixers roster that was just decimated by injuries and missed games, lost a game seven by four points.

'69? In the game three six point loss, Chamberlain put up a 16-26 game on 55% shooting, while West and Baylor combined to shoot 1-10 from the floor in the 4th quarter.

In that game four loss, Wilt shot 2-11 from the line, while his counterpart Russell, shot 2-12 from the floor. Oh, and how about Baylor in that game? 2-14 from the field, and 1-6 from the line...in a one point loss.

In the game seven, two point loss, all Wilt could do was hang an 18-27-10 triple-double, and on a game high .656 from the floor. West had a .569 TS%, Baylor had a .455 TS%, and Wilt's counterpart Russell put up a 6 pt, 21 reb, .342 TS% game.

But yes, blame Wilt...who, BTW, was not even in the game in the last five minutes, thanks to his incompetent coach, who promptly quit before being fired.

'70? This is truly laughable. Wilt shredded his knee early in the season, and was playing only four months after major knee surgery.

Not only that, but he was clearly the Lakers best player in that series, despite playing on one leg. He hung the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23-24 .625), and in the last two "must win games" had games of 45-27 on 20-27 shooting, and then 21-24 on .625 shooting. Oh, and how did he fare against a one-legged FMVP Reed in the last three games of Finals? He outscored him by an 88-10 margin; outrebounded him by a 71-3 margin; and outshot him from the floor by a 39-55 to 4-10 margin (.708 to .400.)

All this accomplished with a huge underdog 46-36 team that faced a HOF laden 60-22 Knicks team with HCA in the Finals.

As for the "1-11" from the line in game seven...the Lakers were down by 27 points at halftime, and his missed FTs had no bearing on the game. His TEAMMATES poor play, particularly that of an injured Jerry West, who was just slaughtered by Walt Frazier, contributed far more to that rout.

Poster didn't mention Wilt's '71 post-season. The post-season in which he didn't have his two best teammates, West and Baylor, and was playing only a year after major knee surgery. Wilt led his underdog Lakers past the Bulls in the first round, and then statistically battled a peak Kareem to a draw in the WCF's, albeit in a 4-1 series loss. In fact, Wilt actually outplayed Kareem in three of those five games, and one of the others was a draw.


Nor did he mention Wilt's '72 post-season. Chamberlain led a team that had gone 48-34 the year before, and that then jettisoned Baylor, to a 69-13 record. In the WCF's, and despite being heavily outscored by a peak Kareem, he, by ALL accounts, outplayed KAJ. In fact, Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that series. A shot-jacking Kareem shot .457 from the floor in that series, and in the last four games he could only shoot .414! The Lakers knocked off the defending champions, and effectively ended their dynasty before it ever got going.

Chamberlain then absolutely crushed the Knicks and their five HOFers in the Finals. He put up a 19-23-7 .600 series, and in the clincher and playing the game with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED, he hung a 24-29-8 game on 10-14 shooting. Oh, and he did carried "Mr. Clutch" West, who shot a horrific .325 from the floor, to his only ring. Of course Chamberlain won the FMVP.

'73? Unlike the '72 Finals, which were dominated by the Lakers, the '73 Finals had all five games decided in the last minute. And with West once again puking all over the floor, including 5-17 from the field in the clinching game loss, and with Hairston nowhere near 100%, the Lakers fell 4-1. In Wilt's last game of his career, he was the only Laker to play well, putting up a 23-21 game on 9-16 from the floor.


There you have it. Quite a choking resume alright.

Here was Wilt "the choker" routinely putting up 30-20 playoff series, and against the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Kareem, and Russell. In his scoring prime, he averaged 33 ppg in his 52 playoff games, 30 of which came against Russell. Remove the Russell games, and he averaged 36 ppg.

He had post-seasons of 22-21-5, 22-29-9, 24-25-7, 28-30, 29-27, 33-26, 35-25, 35-27, and 37-23. He had post-season series of 30-31, 31-27, 34-27, 37-23, 37-23, 39-23, and 39-23. The man averaged 24.5 rpg, and outrebounded the career record holder in ALL EIGHT of their H2H's. He also averaged an NBA record 24.6 rpg in his six Finals. He had back-to-back triple-double post-season series. He outshot his HOF counterparts in his six Finals by a collective margin of .559 to .439...all while badly outrebounding them.

He had must win playoff games of 42, 45, 46, 50, 50, and 56 points.

In his 23 must-win playoff games he averaged 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in that same span.) Anbd in his 37 must win and series clinching playoff games... 29.5 rpg, 26.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .546 FG%.

[aj1987]

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[LAZERUSS]

The King of QUIT...LeQUIT.

Began early in his career...

http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2655852

Quote:
Quote:
James was widely criticized on sports talk radio and by TV pundits for leaving the floor in the final seconds Tuesday night in a 104-95 overtime loss to Atlanta. After missing a 3-pointer with 15 seconds left, he began walking off the floor toward Cleveland's locker room while the Hawks dribbled out the clock.

Then came his infamous '07 Finals.

Shot a horrific .356 in a four game sweep. And in that game four one point loss... 10-30 from the floor, and 2-6 from the line.

In his ONE Eastern Conference series in which he actually faced a great team, the '08 Celtics... shot .355 from the floor.

Then came the '09 ECF's, where he "led" his 66-16 team down the drain against the Magic. Let's ask his OWNER about that one...

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....ron_james.html

Quote:
Gilbert also said he believes James quit on the Cavs in Game 6 of their series in 2009 against Orlando.

"Go back and look at the tape," he said. "How many shots did he take?"

Sure enough...here was the box score from that game...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905300ORL.html


And, as bad as that QUIT JOB was, he followed it up with his performance in the 2010 ECSF's...

Again, let's ask his OWNER...

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....ron_james.html

Quote:
"He quit," Gilbert said. "Not just in Game 5, but in Games 2, 4 and 6. Watch the tape. The Boston series was unlike anything in the history of sports for a superstar."

And we have the famous footage of game five as well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...005110CLE.html

3-14 from the floor.


2011 Finals. Goes from leading scorer on his team, to dropping 10 ppg and only third leading scorer. Watches Bus Rider Wade choke away the clinching game six. Gets badly outplayed by Jason Terry, and can't score a point when defended by the 5-8 JJ Barea.

How about this game four in that series...

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...mis-three.html

Quote:
The turning point of the series took place in game four when Nowitzki overcame a 100-plus degree fever and scored 10 of his 21 points in the fourth quarter--including a driving layup that put the Mavs up 84-81 with 14.4 seconds remaining--as Dallas tied the series at 2-2. It is no coincidence that the momentum shifted precisely during the first game in this series when James clearly quit (an accusation I base not on numbers but on observable effort level at both ends of the court); after game four, some media members threw around words like "disengaged" and "disinterested" and "detached" to describe James' performance but those terms are just fancy ways to avoid bluntly speaking the truth: James is the most talented player in the NBA, there is nothing wrong with him physically and he quit during a pivotal playoff game. It was funny to hear Jon Barry--who must be the most incompetent NBA analyst who ever actually played in the NBA--declare that if James were still a Cavalier then we would know to expect a big performance from him in game five but that because James now plays for the more talented Heat it was not clear what he would do. Apparently, Barry forgot that James quit versus Boston in game five last year--but Magic Johnson did not let Barry (or James) off the hook, declaring, "I'm sorry, I can't go with that. I can't go with that. I played with two Hall of Famers myself and I didn't say, 'I've got to worry about what Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) is going to do. I've got to worry about what James (Worthy) is going to do.' I came out to dominate if it was a big game and we needed to win that game. He's got to come out with that type of mindset. Let Wade play his game. Let Bosh play his game. He's got to deliver. That's why he signed with Miami. He signed to win the championship. He wanted that pressure. Well, guess what--the pressure's on you. So deliver."

All of the deserved criticism James received for quitting in game four should not obscure the reality that even though Wade played hard throughout the contest he did not distinguish himself in the clutch, missing a key free throw at the :30.1 mark of the fourth quarter that could have tied the score at 81 and then fumbling a pass when he was the first option to attempt a potentially tying three pointer on the game's final possession. Neither miscue should be surprising--Wade is not a great free throw shooter and he has a tendency to be careless with the ball (during his career, Wade turns the ball over 20% more frequently than Kobe Bryant on a per minute basis). It seems like many people have forgotten that before LeBron James became Miami's best player this season Wade's Heat failed to win a single playoff series from 2007-2010.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

2013 Finals. Down 3-2 in game six, and playing like shit the entire game, he goes 1-4 in the last four minutes, and in the last seconds of regulation throws up a wild prayer that misses so badly, that an out of position Chris "Can't Do" Bosh taps it out to Ray Allen, who hits the series-saving three. Even in OT, LeChoke chokes, going 1-3. Carried by his teammates to a title.

2014 Finals. The most worthless 28-8-4 .679 TS% performance in Finals history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Plays like shit when the games are close, and then PADS his stats when the games are blowouts.

QUITS on his team in game one, using the famous "menstrual cramps" as an excuse, and the QUITS again in game five...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

Just a KNOWN QUITTER.


2015?

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/0...two-week-break

Quote:
ESPN's Brian Windhorst aka "The LeBron Whisperer" made a bombshell appearance on Bill Simmons' podcast yesterday. Face-to-face with Simmons (who was probably squealing inside at all the #insider #information being dropped), Windhorst spilled a few nuggets on how LeBron's first season back with the Cleveland Cavaliers has developed. In addition to mentioning that it's LeBron, not head coach David Blatt calling many of the Cavs' plays, Windhorst told a story about how LeBron had to quit on the team before they'd let him rest up.

[aj1987]

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[LAZERUSS]

http://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/print/5.500/8.000/break/images-medium-5/kareem-abdul-jabbar-blocks-wilt-chamberlain-retro-images-archive.jpg


Absolutely dominated 3" everytime they matched up



You could just see Wilt SHRIVELING beneath the pressure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]In the post-season, the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls,[93] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Abdul-Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[93] [B]Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104

[Dray n Klay]

Laz, is it too hard for you to admit that Wilt wasn't perfect and had his blunders in the playoffs? :confusedshrug:



He was human, he lost games, he made mistakes, and he didn't play well all the time, just like any other player.




Are you so enamored with Wilt's 3" pecker that you can't even admit that? :wtf:

[LAZERUSS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/Class%20of%201992/Shaq_Attaq_The_Real_Shaquille_Oneal.jpg

Shaq MUCH shorter than Wilt and Kareem

[aj1987]

https://s18.postimg.org/ejsq6m62h/shaq.jpg
https://s18.postimg.org/bqziml5q1/Wilt_Chamberlain_100_point.jpg

Shaq would drop 100 in a half on 95% in that pathetic era.

[LAZERUSS]

https://s18.postimg.org/ejsq6m62h/shaq.jpg
https://s18.postimg.org/bqziml5q1/Wilt_Chamberlain_100_point.jpg

Shaq would drop 100 in a half on 95% in that pathetic era.

http://i44.tinypic.com/347xlw7.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig


A 400 lb tub of lard Shaq only a couple of years retired ...doing the bench press...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2-x-0lAQo

315 lbs :roll: :roll: :roll:


A 26 year old Wilt's playing weight in 1963... 320 lbs...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CqxIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xwANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3715,469887&dq=&hl=en

A 27 year old Wilt's playing weight in 1964... 315 lbs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6573884&postcount=17

Then how about a 27 year old Wilt's bench...

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/03/02/608684/meet-the-new-wilt-chamberlain


The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.


Arnold himself on Wilt's unfathomable strength...

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=13905351


Wilt would have thrown the fat Shaq all over the floor.

The reality was... Wilt was taller, longer, faster, more athletic, stronger, and more skilled than Shaq. There was no area in terms of basketball in which Shaq was close to Chamberlain.

[aj1987]

http://i44.tinypic.com/347xlw7.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig


A 400 lb tub of lard Shaq only a couple of years retired ...doing the bench press...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2-x-0lAQo

315 lbs :roll: :roll: :roll:


A 26 year old Wilt in 1963... 320 lbs...

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CqxIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xwANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3715,469887&dq=&hl=en

A 27 year old Wilt in 1964... 315 lbs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6573884&postcount=17

Then how about a 27 year old Wilt's bench...

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/03/02/608684/meet-the-new-wilt-chamberlain




Arnold himself on Wilt's unfathomable strength...

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=13905351


Wilt would have thrown the fat Shaq all over the floor.
A roided up career loser vs the MDE. Shaq would make the mental midget quit basketball after 2 minutes.

Heck, 2 minutes is a stretch, TBH. More like 2 plays.

[pedromarinho]

you ****ing tard...

A guy can bench press 500 lbs and have less strenght than a guy who can bench press 300 lbs

bench press means nothing, it's an isolated movement.

shaq would kill wilt in under 5 seconds

[aj1987]

you ****ing tard...

A guy can bench press 500 lbs and have less strenght than a guy who can bench press 300 lbs

bench press means nothing, it's an isolated movement.

shaq would kill wilt in under 5 seconds
This.


Papaya_Pete has much pretty ripped all those myths apart several times as well.

[LAZERUSS]

A roided up career loser vs the MDE. Shaq would make the mental midget quit basketball after 2 minutes.

Heck, 2 minutes is a stretch, TBH. More like 2 plays.

The 7-1.5 300+ Wilt (his playing weight for much of his career) was FAR stronger than the Dough Boy Shaq...who was 6-11.5 (he even admitted as much) and was around 350 lbs of pure fat for most of his career.

Google Wilt's strength. The internet is PLASTERED with articles on his unfathomable strength, speed, and athleticism.

Google Shaq's strength. Most of the articles are hilarious. One of the first one's is his bench press "battle" with Barkley.

And here was an article on SHAQ's strength from 1999...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-10-13/sports/9910130087_1_aba-san-diego-conquistadors-wilt-chamberlain


"People talk about the strength of Shaq (Shaquille O'Neal). I think Wilt could have picked up Shaq and thrown him through the hoop. That's no disrespect to Shaq, but Wilt was the strongest guy I ever played against.


Fat "the Hippo" Shaq.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

you ****ing tard...

A guy can bench press 500 lbs and have less strenght than a guy who can bench press 300 lbs

bench press means nothing, it's an isolated movement.

shaq would kill wilt in under 5 seconds

Let's ask Arnold...

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-best-bs-arnold-schwarzenegger-wilt-chamberlain-and-andre-the-giant-have-dinner/

STRENGTH.

A full charging Shaq would have bounced off of Chamberlain like a mosquito and slid across the entire floor with multiple fractures. They would have been carrying Shaq out in a body bag.

[LAZERUSS]

This.


Papaya_Pete has much pretty ripped all those myths apart several times as well.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

No he didn't. He claimed that tall players can't bench press.

I DESTROYED that when I posted a 6-10 265 Dwight Howard, who would have been a puny dork if he stood next to Chamberlain...

http://www.stack.com/video/2305637272001/dwight-howard-benches-365-pounds

He EASILY does 365... THREE TIMES.

Had he gone with an all out max... 400 .

And again, Chamberlain would have DWARFED him.

There are NUMEROUS articles on Chamberlain's bench press...many of them in the 500 lb range.

There is even a live interview in which the interviewer claims to have witnessed a Wilt, in his 50's, bench pressing 465 lbs.

No question...Chamberlain was BY FAR, the STRONGEST man to have ever played in the NBA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

[CelticBaller]

Oh yes Wilt

The man who famously bench pressed a killer whale and wrestled a shark in the ocean at the same time

[aj1987]

Oh yes Wilt

The man who famously bench pressed a killer whale and wrestled a shark in the ocean at the same time
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Go to that thread and refute him, Lozerus.

[Big164]

Shaq has never been that high off the ground.https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eiNIFq74beE/T7Jubi2cOfI/AAAAAAAADcY/PrwxKE-XRtk/s800/WiltJB1.jpg

[aj1987]

Shaq has never been that high off the ground.https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eiNIFq74beE/T7Jubi2cOfI/AAAAAAAADcY/PrwxKE-XRtk/s800/WiltJB1.jpg
Head near the ****ing rim, little boy.

https://s21.postimg.org/87rqa1z1z/d9_Wez98.jpg

[egokiller]

Look at GOAT MJ right up there with him.

[dankok8]

I will reply to some of this tonight but damn this thread got derailed with the Lebron talk.

[LAZERUSS]

I will reply to some of this tonight but damn this thread got derailed with the Lebron talk.

Partially my fault, but it was derailed by AJackoff's usual POS posts.

Look forward to your reply.

[aj1987]

Partially my fault, but it was derailed by AJackoff's usual POS posts.

Look forward to your reply.
******, serious question. Why do you want to talk about basketball, when you've never seen a single minute of it and obviously do not even watch the clips you post?

I'm here trying to teach you and you are just being dense AF. Chokerlain is a mental midget career loser. Borderline top 15. LeBron is top 3. Learn to deal with it and move on.

[dunksby]

I will reply to some of this tonight but damn this thread got derailed with the Lebron talk.
All this because basketball-reference does not have a perfect database.

[dankok8]

LAZERUSS...

I have a problem when I debate about Wilt with you because you only acknowledge facts that help your argument but ignore others that further the critics' cases.

For example...

Coming into the 1965 EDF, I have never heard you mention that Boston was in a sad state regarding injuries coming into the series. Heinsohn had a nagging foot injury all year, Havlicek had a swollen right hand and an injured knee, and even Russell had an ankle injury.

You also always mention the 1-point loss in Game 7 but you never acknowledge what happened in Game 4. With Boston up by by 2 points with just 1 second left in the game, Hal Green hit a 35-foot buzzer beater that sent the game to OT. He doesn't hit that miraculous shot and Philly is down 3-1 going to Boston and considering they didn't win any game on the road they are probably out in five games. With that shot it's 2-2. Funny thing about the Greer shot is that it was probably not even up in time. With 1 second left, Greer reportedly caught the ball, turned around, took one dribble, and shot the heave. It was a controversial play and Red Auerbach claims that the series never should have even gone seven games.

Wilt played very very well in that series but you can't be selective about the information you provide and act like there is nothing else. The Boston injuries and the Greer shot were definitely contributing factors to why that series was close. I mean Boston crushed a better Philly team in 1966 didn't they? And you always disparage Russell based on his numbers when he had big impact in many games.




As for 1968 it's hard to give Wilt a pass for his calf injury. It was a muscle sprain and trainer Al Domenico called it "not serious". Secondly, it happened in Game 3 and Wilt had a big performance in Game 5 so there is no excuse for his subpar performances in Game 6 and 7.

In 1970, injuries are also a weak excuse because while Wilt did miss almost all of the regular season with injury, he definitely played inspired in the first round. Down 3-1 against the Suns Wilt put together a ridiculous stretch from Game 5 to 7 and led his team to three straight wins to take the series.

Game 5: 36 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10 blocks
Game 6: 12 points, 26 rebounds, 11 assists, 11 blocks
Game 7: 30 points, 17 rebounds, 6 assists, 11 blocks

Sweet mother of god. That's three consecutive triple doubles including a quadruple double. Just straight dominance on both ends of the floor...

After that three game stretch in the postseason and that dominant Game 6 in the finals, it is inexcusable for Wilt to be so pedestrian in Game 5 and Game 7. And I mean pedestrian. He was a statue on defense in Game 7 (which even you admitted) with 0 blocks and he also had 6 turnovers and shot 1/11 from the free throw line.

Based on his performances in other games, I don't think you can use Wilt's injuries as an excuse in 1968 and 1970.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS...

I have a problem when I debate about Wilt with you because you only acknowledge facts that help your argument but ignore others that further the critics' cases.

For example...

Coming into the 1965 EDF, I have never heard you mention that Boston was in a sad state regarding injuries coming into the series. Heinsohn had a nagging foot injury all year, Havlicek had a swollen right hand and an injured knee, and even Russell had an ankle injury.

You also always mention the 1-point loss in Game 7 but you never acknowledge what happened in Game 4. With Boston up by by 2 points with just 1 second left in the game, Hal Green hit a 35-foot buzzer beater that sent the game to OT. He doesn't hit that miraculous shot and Philly is down 3-1 going to Boston and considering they didn't win any game on the road they are probably out in five games. With that shot it's 2-2. Funny thing about the Greer shot is that it was probably not even up in time. With 1 second left, Greer reportedly caught the ball, turned around, took one dribble, and shot the heave. It was a controversial play and Red Auerbach claims that the series never should have even gone seven games.

Wilt played very very well in that series but you can't be selective about the information you provide and act like there is nothing else. The Boston injuries and the Greer shot were definitely contributing factors to why that series was close. I mean Boston crushed a better Philly team in 1966 didn't they? And you always disparage Russell based on his numbers when he had big impact in many games.


[/B]

First of all...

'64-65.

I don't need to make ANY excuses for Chamberlain.

One, he was traded at mid-season, for three players who had averaged 31 ppg the season before, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. It was bad enough that he was going to a crappy team, but, the Sixers gave up quite a bit to get him.

Interesting too, that both their two best players from '64, Greer and Walker, DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED in their playoffs in '65 WITH Wilt, as compared to their '64 playoffs withOUT Chamberlain.

'64 Playoffs:

Greer 21.4 ppg on a .389 FG%
Walker 18.8 ppg on a .390 FG%

'65 Playoffs:

Greer 24.6 ppg on a .455
Walker 20.3 ppg on a .480


Still, Wilt's Sixers were MASSIVELY outgunned. Russell's Celtics enjoyed a 6-3 margin in HOFers, and not only that, but it could easily be argued that Sam Jones, not Russell, was the second best player in that series behind Wilt. Jones averaged 29.1 ppg on a .452 FG% in that series, including games of 40, 36, and then 37 points in the clincher.

And speaking of efficiency in that series, both teams combined to shoot an overall .413 from the field, and a TS% of .465. The Sixers actually had a slight edge in FG% at .413 to .412. HOWEVER, remove Wilt's .555 FG%, and Russell's .447 FG%, and the Celtics outshot the Sixers by a .401 to .377 margin. Chamberlain's .555 was an unfathomable .142 margin over the two team's combined FG%, and his .575 TS% was a staggering .110 above the two team's combined TS%.

Wilt's CRUSHED Russell in nearly every statistical category in that series, as well. In fact, his carpet-bombing of Russell in that series in probably the biggest beatdown by one Top-10 player in their prime over another Top-10 player in their prime. Only Chamberlain's demolition of Russell in their '67 EDF's would likely challenge it.

I have mentioned it before, but in terms of individual matchups in that series, Wilt went 6-1 in his H2H's with Russell. He was only outplayed in game three, and easily outplayed Russell in games four and five and seven. And he obliterated Russell in games one, two, and six.

For those that didn't know, here were their numbers...

Russell averaged 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg (20.2 TRB%), 6.7 apg, .447 FG%, .472 FT%, and on a .459 TS%.

Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg (25.1 TRB%), 3.3 apg, .555 FG%, .583 FT%, and a .575 TS%. And in their known blocked shots, Chamberlain enjoyed a 35-22 advantage.

Interesting too that in game seven, Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's teammates by a .417 to .373 margin (40-96 to 28-75)...in a one point win. Of course, Chamberlain outshot Russell by an .800 to .438 margin from the field (12-15 to 7-16), and using FTs, Wilt outscored Russell 6-13 to 1-2. Even using their FTAs in that game, Chamberlain held a .724 to .444 TS% advantage in that game.

Wilt led BOTH teams in MPG (by one minute over Russell), PPG, RPG, TRB%, FG%, TS%, and in known blocked shots. And I am most certain that had there been a breakdown of offensive and defensive rebounds, that Wilt would have led in those categories, as well as ORtg and even likely DRtg, too.

When you factor in that he came to a bottom dwelling team, that had to give up a collective 31 ppg to get him, and then took that same roster to a game seven, one point loss against the six time defending (and would be seven time defending) and 62-18 Celtics, at the peak of their dynasty...well, it was just a staggering accomplishment.

And in that game seven, Wilt scored Philly's 8 out of their last 10 points to pull the Sixers to within one point, which included 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs remaining. And then, the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass giving the Sixers the ball under their own basket. However, Greer's inbounds pass was stolen by Hondo, and that was the game. BTW, the Sixer coach Dolph Schayes admitted he blew that last play call.

In any case, given the fact that Boston then went on to destroy the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, with two 30+ blowout wins, including a 129-96 clincher...there was no question, that the EDF's were the REAL NBA Finals in '65, as they probably were in all eight of the Wilt-Russell post-season H2H's.

BTW, had the Sixers been able to beat Boston in that game seven, he would have faced a Laker team that he had murdered in the decade of the 60's, including these Laker centers...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1=chambwi01&hint=Leroy+Ellis&player_id2_select=Leroy+Ellis&player_id2=ellisle01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1=chambwi01&hint=Gene+Wiley&player_id2_select=Gene+Wiley&player_id2=wileyge01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&hint=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1_select=Wilt+Chamberlain&player_id1=chambwi01&hint=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id2_select=Darrall+Imhoff&player_id2=imhofda01

BTW, Chamberlain faced the Lakers in 86 H2H games in the decade of the 60's, but never even one game in the post-season. And in those 86 games, he had 42 games of 40+, which included 19 of 50+, 7 of 60+, and even 3 of 70+, with a high of 78. He also had FOUR regular seasons, covering between 8-12 games each, in which he averaged 41 ppg, 44 ppg, 48 ppg, and 52 ppg, as well as another season in which he averaged 26 ppg on a .759 FG%.

Continued...

[Big164]

Head near the ****ing rim, little boy.

Are you honestly claiming shaq can get as high as a seasoned trained 7-1 high jumper?

http://i.imgur.com/G4lyU.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c-A6DnfdO5Q/U17fHcwWNHI/AAAAAAAAFF8/VKBsSUA0TEw/s800/Wilt%2520skies3.jpg

Wilt was an extra terrestrial.

[aj1987]

LAZERUSS...

I have a problem when I debate about Wilt with you because you only acknowledge facts that help your argument but ignore others that further the critics' cases.
He's a cherrypicking dumbass. No point in arguing with someone who hasn't seen a single minute of basketball.

[LAZERUSS]

LAZERUSS...

I have a problem when I debate about Wilt with you because you only acknowledge facts that help your argument but ignore others that further the critics' cases.

As for 1968 it's hard to give Wilt a pass for his calf injury. It was a muscle sprain and trainer Al Domenico called it "not serious". Secondly, it happened in Game 3 and Wilt had a big performance in Game 5 so there is no excuse for his subpar performances in Game 6 and 7.


Based on his performances in other games, I don't think you can use Wilt's injuries as an excuse in 1968 and 1970.

1968:

Wilt's "muscle sprain" has been DOCUMENTED in several articles as a CALF MUSCLE TEAR, which occurred in Game TWO. He was being treated for it prior to game three. And he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING the ENTIRE series.

How bad were his injuries...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13


New York Times - Apr 18, 1968

But injuries have depleted the team that ended the Celtics' eight-year reign last season. Wally Jones, the jump-shooting Philadelphia guard with the game-breaking touch, is doubtful for Friday. He aggravated his right knee, first injured during the series with the New York Knickerbockers, early in the opening quarter and did not return.

Wilt Chamberlain, the 7-foot pillar of the 76ers, produced 20 points but was in obvious pain with an ailing right leg.


DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician



[QUOTE]Lawrence Daily Journal World - April 29, 1968

There never has been a keener rivalry in athletics than the one between basketball's Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell.

But while they go at it tooth and nail on the court, Wilt of Philly and Bill of Boston have great respect for each other.

After the Celtics edged the 76ers in the Eastern playoffs

[Big164]

He's a cherrypicking dumbass. No point in arguing with someone who hasn't seen a single minute of basketball.
Go outside and get laid. Serious we are all 75 year old men, so we have an excuse.

You are 29 and worried about a 1950s player. Millenials were a waste of sperm.

[aj1987]

Go outside and get laid. Serious we are all 75 year old men, so we have an excuse.

You are 29 and worried about a 1950s player. Millenials were a waste of sperm.
You're a 20 year old Asian dude, who pretends to be white with dozens of accounts in ISH solely to troll. Find the nearest tall building and jump off of it as soon as possible, warriorfag.

[LAZERUSS]

1968 continued...

Of course, Chamberlain wasn't the only Sixer to have injury problems.

Aside from Wilt's MULTIPLE INJURIES, the biggest one was the loss of HOFer Billy Cunningham who was injured in game three of the Knicks series, and completely missed the EDF's. BTW, he was having a monster series against the Knicks, averaging 20.7 ppg on a .558 FG% when he went down. A HUGE loss.

Again, here were the list of injuries that Sixers were dealing with in the EDF's...


DELAWARE COUNTY - April 13, 1968

Club Rated 'Most Courageous' By Hannum as Injuries Mount

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - The Philadelphia 76ers could be billed as the best touring troupe In basketball. All they need is a doctor to complete the cast.

Going into the fourth game Sunday of their National Basketball Association playoff series with the Boston Celtics, the 76ers are hurting from head to toe.

So what's new? Injuries have plagued the defending NBA champions since the opening of the season.

"Alex Hannum says this is the most courageous team he's ever coached," says Harvey Pollack, the 76ers' statistician. "The locker room looks like a hospital ward every time I walk in."

Pollack ticked off some of the cases, which read like a medical diary:

-Wilt Chamberlain (partial tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe):

-Wally Jones (injured knee cartilage):

-Luke Jackson (pulled hamstring muscle):

-Hal Greer (bursitus in his right knee):

-And, Billy Cunningham (broken right wrist).

"That's not mentioning (rookie) Jim Reid who had a knee operation after injuring it the first game of the season," said Pollack, "and Larry Costello," the veteran guard who tore an ankle tendon after one-third of the season was gone.

The most recent injury was to Chamberlain in Friday night's Eastern Division playoff contest with the Celtics. The dipper was given whirlpool treatments for the calf muscle tear, but Pollack wasn't sure how he'd respond.

The 76ers have nine men in uniform for the best-of-seven playoffs, which they lead, two games to one. But whether they'll have anybody left for the finals against the Western Division winner is anybody's guess.

The team's troubles multiplied in the Eastern Division semifinals against the New York Knickerbockers. Cunningham broke his wrist, knocking him out for the season, Jones and Jackson suffered their injuries and Chamberlain aggravated his perennial toe injury.

And when Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

That was before game five.

The Sixers were leading the series 3-1 going into game five, and even a Wilt at considerably less than 100% was just crushing Russell. And he would continue to do so in what could have been a clinching game five. He outscored Russell, 28-8, outrebounded Russell, 30-24, and outshot him, 11-21 to 4-10. BUT, late in third quarter of game five, BOTH Luke Jackson, and Wali Jones aggravated previous injuries, and Jones despite being doubtful for game six, played, but was awful (6 pts on 2-9 shooting.) And both shot poorly in game seven (Jackson was 7-17, while Jones was 8-22.)

In any case, the Sixers, as dominant as they were in the regular season, were not a deep team. From '66 thru '68 their front line of Wilt, Cunningham, Walker, and Jackson just overwhelmed their opposition. But by the '68 EDF's their front line was decimated. What had been a strength was now just a shell.

In the first five games, though, even an injured Chamberlain was dominating Russell. He had averaged 24 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .539 FG%. But as incredible a physical specimen as Wilt was, even he couldn't sustain that level of play. By game seven he could hardly move. Still, as poorly as he shot in game six, he managed to pull down 27 rebounds.

And, in game seven, it has also been well documented that his teammates simply did not get him the ball. He only TOUCHED the ball in the pivot a total of SEVEN times in the second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter. Meanwhile, Greer shot 8-25, Walker 8-22, Jones 8-22, Jackson 7-17, and Guokas 2-10. Of course it was WILT who received the blame. Some said that he should have demanded the ball. But, think about this...the team had been successful for two straight seasons with Chamberlain distributing the ball. Can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued had a "selfish" Chamberlain suddenly demanded the ball? If anyone was to blame, it was the usually great Hannum, who somehow lost control of the game. He should have pulled the team aside and demanded that they get the ball into Wilt (interesting enough, he had done that in a game early in the '67 season and against Thurmond's Warriors, and Chamberlain exploded for 24 points in that second half in a win.)

In any case, a broken down shell of what had been the most dominant team in NBA history just the season before, and for the entire regular season...lost a game seven by four points. Had Wilt and the Sixers been healthy in that series, and they likely would have repeated their '67 EDF's destruction of Boston. Furthermore, just how one sided would that series had been had the Sixers been healthy, and it would have been Boston struggling with injuries? Have Russell hobbled, remove Havilcek altogether, and have half of their other players playing hurt, and it might have been the most brutal sweep in playoff history.

Oh, and all a very limited Chamberlain could do in that series... 22-25-7. Now, give me a list of players, healthy or not, who have put up a 22-25-7 seven game playoff series.

[aj1987]

Fact #1 - Chokerlain played in an absolutely shitty and garbage ass era
Fact #2 - Chokerlain played for his stats and didn't give a shit about winning
Fact #3 - Chokerlain choked HARD and this can be evidenced by his significant drop off in production

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Lets look at a couple of physical behemoths from the '60's:

https://s9.postimg.org/b2eeiqye7/0_wilt_chamberlain_4.jpg
https://s9.postimg.org/kbgksv7a7/Bob_Cousy_1950_17688992.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/5mpgjdcjt/140916203240_20140916_gt_elgin_baylor_80th_birth.j pg
https://s10.postimg.org/uu0cjmfnt/Bob_Pettit_1962.jpg

Stick figures? Yep.


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Ilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Ilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Ilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Ilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Ilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Ilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Ilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Ilt Chokerlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Ilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Ilt. Ilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Ilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Ilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
i's FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Ilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Ilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Ilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Ilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Ilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Ilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Ilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Ilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Ilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Ilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Ilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Ilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Ilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[LAZERUSS]

In 1970

Based on his performances in other games, I don't think you can use Wilt's injuries as an excuse in 1968 and 1970.

First of all, I get a kick out of the EXPECTATIONS of Chamberlain.

Here was a CLEARLY less than 100% Chamberlain. He had had MAJOR KNEE SURGERY just four months prior. Virtually ALL medical opinion had him out for the rest of the season. This was almost the exact same injury that a considerably younger Baylor had suffered in the '65 playoffs. Not only did Baylor have about six months recovery time, he had, by far, the worst season of his career the next year. It was almost a year before he approached his previous level of play, and in fact, he was never the same player again.

And we have FOOTAGE of Chamberlain in both game five and game seven of the '70 Finals. Then, compare that FOOTAGE with his game five of the '72 Finals. In the '70 Finals, he is running stiff-legged, has limited side-to-side mobility, and no explosion in his leaps. In the clinching game five of the '72 Finals, he is probably the fastest player on the court; he is literally covering a ton of space in his 8 blocks, and in fact, he is called for two very questionable goal-tends in which his hand is above the square. And just watch how easily he scores in that clinching game five. I have long maintained that he could easily have gone for 40 points had it been necessary.

BTW, he was playing that game five in the '72 Finals with one sprained wrist, and the other wrist...FRACTURED. Think about that. A prime Kareem missed CHUNKS of TWO separate seasons with a broken hand. And yet, here was Wilt not only PLAYING with a broken wrist, he was DOMINATING the game with it. A 24 point game on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire Knick team had a total of 39 BTW), with 8 blocked shots.

Ok, back to the '70 Finals.

A Chamberlain at nowhere near 100%, battled a prime and much healthier Reed, to a draw in the first four games of that series (and the series was tied 2-2.) Reed went down early in game five, and with his team trailing by 10 points. However, aided by the officiating, in which even the NY Times writer Leonard Koppett claimed that the officials swallowed their whistles while West and Wilt were being brutalized (West had TWO FGAs in the second half, and Wilt THREE)...the Knicks came back to win that game.

Game six shifted back to LA, and with a normally officiated game, Chamberlain just overwhelmed the Reedless Knicks with a 45-27 game on 20-27 shooting. BTW, the NY center was career 6-10 journeyman Nate Bowman. Bowman was the equivalent of the 6-11 Todd "Bad Feet" MacCullouch...the career 6 ppg (in only four seasons) center that a peak Shaq crushed in the '02 Finals (36 ppg.) And this 45 point game was by a Wilt basically playing on one leg. One can only imagine the numbers that a prime Chamberlain would have shelled the centers that a peak Shaq faced in his three-peat Finals.

Game seven went back to NY. And I have long maintained that a team of Jordans would not have beaten the Knicks that night. New York came out on fire, hitting 15 of their first 21 shots, and by halftime, the game was essentially over (69-42.)

A couple of points here. Chamberlain was the ONLY Laker to play well in that first half. He was seldom singled by Reed, and when he was, he was often fouled by him (Reed had 4 fouls in the first half.) Reed did lean on Chamberlain, but had a ton of help, as well. In the first half, Wilt scored 11 points, on 5-10 FG/FGA (and yes, 1-8 from the line) with 12 rebounds. And, BTW, had Wilt somehow gone 8-8 from the line...the score would still have been 69-49 at the half. For the game, Chamberlain wound up with 21 points, on 10-16 FG/FGA (and 1-11 FT/FTA) with 24 rebounds.

The REAL blame rested on "Mr. Clutch", who was also battling wrist injuries, but who was just AWFUL in that game seven. He couldn't hit a shot in the first half to save his life, and in fact, had several turnovers just attempting to get the ball past half court. He finally starting hitting some shots in the second half, but it was way too late.

And, of course, Walt Frazier's game seven is also often overlooked. He hung 36 points, and ignited the Knick offense. While his 19 assists are questionable, there is no doubt that he was THE reason that NY won that game.

For the series, all Chamberlain could do was average 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shoot .625 from the field. The "FMVP" Reed hung a 23.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, .483 series. Granted, a healthy Reed outscored a one-legged Wilt in the first four games, but in two of those he shot poorly, and was badly outrebounded (as he was in every game he played in that series.)

Furthermore, in the three pivotal games of the '70 Finals (remember, the series was tied 2-2 in the first four)...Chamberlain outscored Reed by an 88-10 margin, outrebounded him by a 71-3 margin, and outshot him from the field by a 39-55 (.710) to 4-10 (.400) margin. Again, Reed missed one of those games, but you simply can't ignore the numbers. Once the two were playing on a "level playing field" (ie, both were equally as injured), Chamberlain overwhelmed him.


Finally, keep in mind that again, Wilt was nowhere near 100% (and in fact, he would never be the same offensive force he had been before that injury.)

But, here was Wilt getting the blame for a series in which he averaged 23-24 .625, and was the best player on the floor over the last three games. He was certainly the Lakers MVP in that series, despite West having some huge scoring games early on. And again, in a game seven... 21-24 on a .625 FG%.

Now, how about MJ in the first round of the '86 playoffs? Remember his 63 point OT game in game two? How did a healthy Jordan perform in the clinching game three? 19 points on 8-18 shooting in a blowout loss. How about the very next season first round. Game two...Jordan with 42 points. Then came the clinching game three...and Jordan shot 9-30 in a sweeping loss.

How about a prime Kareem, and in his '74 Finals? Game six...34 points on 16-26 shooting (albeit only 8 rebounds), in a one point win. What happened in game seven? He was outplayed by a foul-plagued Cowens, (outscored, outshot, and outrebounded by Cowens), and KAJ with a 26 point game on 10-21 shooting...in a blowout loss on his home floor. Where was his dominant game six when his team desperately needed it in game seven?

How about Kareem's game five in the '80 Finals. 40 points on 16-24 shooting, with 15 rebounds. How about his performance in the clinching game six of the '80 Finals? ZERO...NADA. He didn't even PLAY. And while he was eating popcorn on the couch with a mild ankle sprain...Magic put up one the greatest Finals games in NBA history, carrying his team to a rout of the Sixers on their home floor.

And I could go right down the list of the all-time greats. Most all of them had some poor clinching games, if not poor series. Larry Bird had some downright pathetic playoff series in his career. Hell, Bill Russell just plain gave up against an unstoppable Wilt in the '67 EDF's.

The point is...Wilt...even an INJURED Wilt....was EXPECTED to not only put exceptional playoff games and series...but he was EXPECTED to hang HUGE games. And, in the majority of his playoff games, and particularly his "must win" playoff games, he did so. But only Chamberlain gets ripped for a 22-25-7 or a 23-24- .625 series. The famous WILT DOUBLE STANDARD.

[Big164]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpJTS2UQgQ1vsovP9bymhld8Myht6ye Mk0zQFtNcnhwE-lenyilg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpJTS2UQgQ1vsovP9bymhld8Myht6ye Mk0zQFtNcnhwE-lenyilg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpJTS2UQgQ1vsovP9bymhld8Myht6ye Mk0zQFtNcnhwE-lenyilg

[dunksby]

I wish a mod would just close this thread.