Gary Payton vs. Russell Westbrook

[Lebron23]

Who do you think is the better player, and the better point guard?

http://outsidethehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/paytonwestbrook.jpg

[BasedTom]

2 Seattle Supersonics Legends :applause: :applause: :applause:

[greatest-ever]

Westbrook this year is clearly better than Payton ever was, maybe even last season too.

[HylianNightmare]

Wb

[stalkerforlife]

Payton.

Best defensive PG of all time and an elite offensive threat.

[andgar923]

Are some of these replies a joke?

GP hands down.

It's even arguable that he was the best player for a few years when MJ retired, certainly up there.

[Meticode]

Gary Payton, won a ring, is considered the best defensive PG in NBA history. Is 4th all-time in the NBA in steals, he led his team to the Finals only to meet the all-time great Jordan and was ultra durable troughout his whole career. He played in 95%+ of all the games he every could've possibly played in regular season and playoffs. Also he had two seasons where he shot over 50% from the field which is rare for a point guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#Regular_season

[Ca$H]

Gary Payton, won a ring, is considered the best defensive PG in NBA history. Is 4th all-time in the NBA in steals, he led his team to the Finals only to meet the all-time great Jordan and was ultra durable troughout his whole career. He played in 95%+ of all the games he every could've possibly played in regular season and playoffs. Also he had two seasons where he shot over 50% from the field which is rare for a point guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#Regular_season

role player rings don't enhance a star player's resume'

[jstern]

We're talking about Gary Payton here. I know people live in the moment and Westbrook is a huge name, but come on. Also don't forget about the perimeter friendly rules.

http://www.basket4us.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/westbrook-payton.jpg

[FreezingTsmoove]

Westbrook easily

[BasedTom]

We're talking about Gary Payton here. I know people live in the moment and Westbrook is a huge name, but come on. Also don't forget about the perimeter friendly rules.

http://www.basket4us.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/westbrook-payton.jpg
Westbrook would be unanimous MVP and arguably best in the world if Curry wasn't around. If anything his tremendous year is being underrated.

He is the anti-Harden.

[jstern]

Westbrook would be unanimous MVP and arguably best in the world if Curry wasn't around. If anything his tremendous year is being underrated.

He is the anti-Harden.

But you also have to take the perimeter friendly rules into account. Where point guards are top scorers.

[FashionIssues]

there are no more pg's

[BasedTom]

But you also have to take the perimeter friendly rules into account. Where point guards are top scorers.
Do you use that factor to detract from every perimeter player of this era, or just a select few?

I'm fairly confident that current Westbrook would excel if you were to take him to any other time in the history of the league.

[FashionIssues]

payton has no business playing one on one with westbrook though.

[Im Still Ballin]

Westbrook due to last season and this one

Before that, you'd probably be slightly leaned to the Payton side

[jstern]

Do you use that factor to detract from every perimeter player of this era, or just a select few?

I'm fairly confident that current Westbrook would excel if you were to take him to any other time in the history of the league.
You always have to take reality into account, so rule changes are things that must always be factored in. Always. I'm sure current Westbrook would excel in any era, he and 2009 Lebron are the only players that have given me goosebumps since Jordan retired. Gary Payton is a 1st ballot hall of famer, he's not some average star.

[Real14]

2 Seattle Supersonics Legends :applause: :applause: :applause:
Word Okc don't deserve shit!:roll:

[BasedTom]

You always have to take reality into account, so rule changes are things that must always be factored in. Always. I'm sure current Westbrook would excel in any era, he and 2009 Lebron are the only players that have given me goosebumps since Jordan retired. Gary Payton is a 1st ballot hall of famer, he's not some average star.
Yeah I'm not trying to detract from Payton in any way whatsoever- There is ZERO of that in what I'm trying to say, believe me.

I just think that a lot people are underrating what Russ is doing right now. And what he'll hopefully continue to do/improve on for the next few years.

[Im Still Ballin]

Westbrook would be great in the 90's

Kevin Johnson had a 23/11 season

Averaged probably 20/10 for 88-97

[Im Still Ballin]

Note: He was a 50% FG player, despite being a 31% three point shooter on 0.7 attempts

If A 6-1 PG with less of an outside shot can score 23 points on 50%, imagine what Westbrook could do

He has the body of a SG (Check out dem Jordan defenders)

[feyki]

West little bit better on offence but Payton arguably greatest perimeter defender in nba history .

Gary Payton .

[Smoke117]

Are some of these replies a joke?

GP hands down.

It's even arguable that he was the best player for a few years when MJ retired, certainly up there.

Lmfao...no it isn't. Payton's post 90s numbers are inflated by the fact that the team was going nowhere and he could do whatever he wanted out there. He's also not the greatest defensive pg ever...Jason Kidd is.

[f0und]

payton

smarter player and plays a winning brand of bball. love westbrook, but he's a bit of a bonehead.

[PP34Deuce]

Gary actually would excel more in todays game.

He was an open court player who could post guys up in half court. His build and athletic traits would still make him a great player in todays game.

Gary Payton is not the rebounder Westbrook is but he's more in control.

[Im Still Ballin]

Westbrook has clearly risen his game to a level above Payton. Westbrook is playing on a Wade/Kobe/Magic level of guards right now.

[Smoke117]

Westbrook has clearly risen his game to a level above Payton. Westbrook is playing on a Wade/Kobe/Magic level of guards right now.


He's too stupid to play at a Wade and Magic level...Kobe sure. He doesn't have close to the basketball IQ or control of a Wade or Magic in their primes.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's too stupid to play at a Wade and Magic level...Kobe sure. He doesn't have close to the basketball IQ or control of a Wade or Magic in their primes.
Subjectively, you can make what you want of it

But statistically? He's playing at a Wade/Kobe/Magic level

He's a flawed player, but wasn't Wade and Kobe?

[NLZ]

Gary Payton's yahoo stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/259/

does it say OKC everywhere for him?

[Smoke117]

Subjectively, you can make what you want of it

But statistically? He's playing at a Wade/Kobe/Magic level

He's a flawed player, but wasn't Wade and Kobe?

Wade and Magic always had a level of control Westbrook has never had. Not to mention that Wade up until 2013 before the knee problems was a much, much better defensive player than Westbrook. Rus plays full on 110%...but that's not always a good thing as we've seen from his erraticness. Even in the early Flash days Wade was always under control.

[ballinhun8]

Lmfao...no it isn't. Payton's post 90s numbers are inflated by the fact that the team was going nowhere and he could do whatever he wanted out there. He's also not the greatest defensive pg ever...Jason Kidd is.



No. Kidd was great but he's not on Payton's level.

We're talking about "The Glove" here. That's a pretty telling nickname.

[Dmoore1991]

Payton is a way better player in my opinion in that i think you can build a better team with him on the roster as opposed to having Westbrook on the roster and that is what I primarily look at.

[Smoke117]

No. Kidd was great but he's not on Payton's level.

We're talking about "The Glove" here. That's a pretty telling nickname.

Payton was better one on one...but Kidd was a much, much better help/team defender and had a bigger impact defensively because of that.

[feyki]

Payton is a way better player in my opinion in that i think you can build a better team with him on the roster as opposed to having Westbrook on the roster and that is what I primarily look at.

Put 96 Payton to present Thunder , they would be as good as Spurs and Warriors . Thunder have second best offence of the league . But they have average defence (12th of the league) . Payton would make them elite defensive team too . They would great two way team , like Warriors and Spurs .

[MiseryCityTexas]

Westbrook this year is clearly better than Payton ever was, maybe even last season too.

Payton was a much better defender.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Westbrook this year is clearly better than Payton ever was, maybe even last season too.

Payton wouldn't have allowed Curry to annihilate him in a regular season game the way Curry annihilated Westbrook this season smh. Payton would have locked Curry down in that game.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Westbrook is nothing but a better version of Steve Francis.

[imdaman99]

Payton wouldn't have allowed Curry to annihilate him in a regular season game the way Curry annihilated Westbrook this season smh. Payton would have locked Curry down in that game.
Man you are clueless. First of all, the Warriors run a hundred picks at whoever guards Curry, I'm pretty sure Curry did most his scoring on Singler and Ibaka. You think the Warriors don't know how to exploit Payton fighting through a screen? Payton is not bigger than Draymond or Bogut so he would still have to depend on his teammate because that's how quick Curry can get a shot off.

Payton was a great defender no doubt, but let's not act like he never got humiliated defensively. It happens to everyone, especially great defenders. You don't think Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen or JKidd ever got humiliated by elite offensive players? :oldlol:

http://giant.gfycat.com/EasyBowedColt.gif

[Smoke117]

Man you are clueless. First of all, the Warriors run a hundred picks at whoever guards Curry, I'm pretty sure Curry did most his scoring on Singler and Ibaka. You think the Warriors don't know how to exploit Payton fighting through a screen? Payton is not bigger than Draymond or Bogut so he would still have to depend on his teammate because that's how quick Curry can get a shot off.

Payton was a great defender no doubt, but let's not act like he never got humiliated defensively. It happens to everyone, especially great defenders. You don't think Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen or JKidd ever got humiliated by elite offensive players? :oldlol:

http://giant.gfycat.com/EasyBowedColt.gif

Frankly with these rules you can't even play real defense on the perimeter...thats why we have all these small guards dominating now...back in the 90s you'd NEVER see a guy like Isaiah Thomas being this much a part of the offense. No matter what anyone says...every perimeter players stats are inflated now...a guy like Ray Allen would have ****ing destroyed the league if he came in when Steph did...it's too bad he was already 30 when the rules changed...

[Segatti]

You could easily do the reverse argument and say that Payton wouldn't be as good as a defender if he played today because the rules.

[3ball]

Frankly with these rules you can't even play real defense on the perimeter...thats why we have all these small guards dominating now...back in the 90s you'd NEVER see a guy like Isaiah Thomas being this much a part of the offense. No matter what anyone says...every perimeter players stats are inflated now...a guy like Ray Allen would have ****ing destroyed the league if he came in when Steph did...it's too bad he was already 30 when the rules changed...


https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif


Most of the NBA's top wing scorers are poor 3-point shooters - Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Derozan, Butler

Infact, they all had poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before..

Today's open game would benefit athletic players in previous eras too - however, guys like MJ would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over their aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

Players simply DON'T need to be a good shooters to be top scorers in today's game... Again - Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency.
.

[Smoke117]

https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif


Most of the NBA's top wing scorers are poor 3-point shooters - Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Derozan, Butler

Infact, they all had poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players to get to the rim easier than ever before..

Today's open game would benefit athletic players in previous eras too - however, guys like MJ would ALSO have goat midrange efficiency, and therefore a massive advantage over their aforementioned, non-shooting peers.

Players simply DON'T need to be a good shooters to be top scorers in today's game... Again - Lebron, Wade, Westbrook, Butler, and Derozan have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency.
.

NO matter what era it was...nobody was ever going to be able to stop Wade off the dribble.

[tmacattack33]

I'd say Westbrook....but i'd have to watch some more OKC games. His stats look great, but he has such low bball IQ that I would really need to watch him. I'll see them in the playoffs...I ain't watching no meaningless regular season games.



Anyway, just the fact that you guys are debating this so heavily shows you the mid 90's truly were the Golden times of the league.

Westbrook right now is the 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

And Gary Payton was the 7th or 8th best player in 1996 (behind MJ, Malone, David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Scottie, and Penny)

[Kiddlovesnets]

Best OKC Thunder PG in history vs Best OKC Thunder PG right now, whom will you choose?

[Meticode]

role player rings don't enhance a star player's resume'
Still won a ring, still would put him ahead of Westbrook with 0 rings.

[Papaya Petee]

Gary Payton, won a ring, is considered the best defensive PG in NBA history. Is 4th all-time in the NBA in steals, he led his team to the Finals only to meet the all-time great Jordan and was ultra durable troughout his whole career. He played in 95%+ of all the games he every could've possibly played in regular season and playoffs. Also he had two seasons where he shot over 50% from the field which is rare for a point guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton#Regular_season
Gary Payton won a ring coming off the bench, playing limited minutes, being a back up point guard to a past his prime Jason Williams.
Westbrook aside 2013-2014 has bern extremely durable as well missing little to no games.
If were going to discuss playoff loses, Westbrook made it to the finals to, and lost to a Prime LeBron and Wade team on a mission. Westbrook even had a 44 point game in the finals.

Westbrook is a better slasher, arguably just as good of a 3 PT shooter where Payton wasn't exactly a sharpshooter. He attacks like no other, can give you 25 a game, 10 dimes, and is a top rebounding PG. Westbrook is a very rare talent, and IMO better than Payton.

[3ball]

NO matter what era it was...nobody was ever going to be able to stop Wade off the dribble.



Of course.... But Wade would get to the hole less back then, because the lack of 3-point shooting led to overcrowded paints, where he'd have NO CHOICE but to pull-up from midrange:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif


The lack of spacing prevented penetration just as much as the hand-checking... And the lesser penetration meant that players needed to be great shooters (usually midrange) to be great scorers..

It wasn't just coincidence that nearly all the best scoring wings in previous eras were tremendous midrange shooters (like Jordan) - they HAD to be great shooters to be great scorers, whereas today's wing doesn't (Westbrook, Derozan, Lebron, Butler - they all have poor midrange AND 3-point shooting efficiency).

[thefatmiral]

It's close. Very different players. But Westbrook is the more impactful player.

[bdreason]

I'll take GP's defense and decision making over Westbrook in a playoff setting. Regular season Westbrook is probably worth more wins.

[bizil]

Westbrook is the better player. BUT GP was the better floor general and defender. Both are great all around BUT YET different PG's. GP was a floor general first who could also dominate a game scoring and defensively. Russ is a score first PG who has blossomed into an impressive passer and rebounder.

Both are among the top 5-7 PG's of all time peak wise. But when combining scoring, passing, and defense as a package, GP is arguably the best PG of all time. At the end of the day though, I gotta go with Russ. GOAT wise, Russ has a long way to go to pass GP by. But if he keeps up his current pace, he will pass GP by there too.

[Segatti]

Of course.... But Wade would get to the hole less back then, because the lack of 3-point shooting led to overcrowded paints, where he'd have NO CHOICE but to pull-up from midrange:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif


The lack of spacing prevented penetration just as much as the hand-checking... And the lesser penetration meant that players needed to be great shooters (usually midrange) to be great scorers..

It wasn't just coincidence that nearly all the best scoring wings in previous eras were tremendous midrange shooters (like Jordan) - they HAD to be great shooters to be great scorers, whereas today's wing doesn't (Westbrook, Derozan, Lebron, Butler - they all have poor midrange AND 3-point shooting efficiency).

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183253/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.36.39_PM.png

That crowded paint :lol

[Micku]

I'll take GP's defense and decision making over Westbrook in a playoff setting. Regular season Westbrook is probably worth more wins.

Y'know what....I think you're right. I think I agree with you here.

Westbrook is a better talent. Probably the better player. But I think GP defense and decision making is better than Westbrook overall and it would suit more for a playoff setting. But that's just imo. I'll probably change my mind.

Something tells me OKC would be a bit better with GP in the playoffs. Defense would better. Smarter plays, probably a better general. Then again, when I see GOATbrook flirting with a triple double...I dunno. Close doe. It just Westbrook gott'a be smarter.

And GP could give you 20/8/4 with one of a kind PG defense. So...I dunno. As I said before, I think Westbrook is the better talent. But GP is a smarter player with better defense that could probably make OKC a tad bit better in the playoffs.

[ILLsmak]

Still won a ring, still would put him ahead of Westbrook with 0 rings.

GP I think would destroy WB because he would make WB go ape shit. It wouldn't be hard at all for him to turn WB into a chucker and isolate him from his team.

That shot GP hit in Miami to basically give them the win in game 3 was a giant shot... nobody really puts that up there with shit like Horry or Ray Allen, but that shot was ****ing huge. You can't really say it was a role player ring cuz of that shot. not to mention, he played well overall, imo.

That Heat team had a lot of talent on it.

-Smak

[Smoke117]

GP I think would destroy WB because he would make WB go ape shit. It wouldn't be hard at all for him to turn WB into a chucker and isolate him from his team.

That shot GP hit in Miami to basically give them the win in game 3 was a giant shot... nobody really puts that up there with shit like Horry or Ray Allen, but that shot was ****ing huge. You can't really say it was a role player ring cuz of that shot. not to mention, he played well overall, imo.

That Heat team had a lot of talent on it.

-Smak

...one shot doesn't make him a star...it absolutely is a role player ring...he averaged 3/2/2...and that's me being generous as it was actually 2.7ppg.

[jstern]

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183253/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.36.39_PM.png

That crowded paint :lol

I would understand the :lol if it was a still picture of the defenders out by the 3 point line, close to the offensive players.

Anyway, on Gary Payton. Jordan had his worse Finals numbers when guarded by Gary Payton.

[houston]

It's close. Very different players. But Westbrook is the more impactful player.


yup this i agree

[Lebron23]

Give me Gary Payton better defender and higher Basketball IQ than Russell Westbrick.

[Leroy Jetson]

Westbrook doesn't have the mental capacity to beat Payton. He can always turn into chuckbrook and lose you the game. Durant and Payton together would already have a title. Durant is better than Kemp and if Payton didn't have to face the Bulls he probably would have won at least once in his prime.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Jason Williams wasn't past his prime. He just played in a more controlled offense in Miami. Pat Riley wasn't having that playing ground bullshit.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Shawn kemp was a better version of Amare Stodemire that played defense before the 10 million kids and crack.....

[imdaman99]

Westbrook doesn't have the mental capacity to beat Payton. He can always turn into chuckbrook and lose you the game. Durant and Payton together would already have a title. Durant is better than Kemp and if Payton didn't have to face the Bulls he probably would have won at least once in his prime.
Too many IFs. I'll take the guy who is still improving and already an elite player that will have more shots at the title going forward.

[Lebron23]

Westbrook. He's in another tier than Payton. Payton was never a top 3-5 player in the NBA During his prime.

Westbrook also have better all around numbers.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Westbrook. He's in another tier than Payton. Payton was never a top 3-5 player in the NBA During his prime.

Westbrook also have better all around numbers.

This.

Payton never had the same impact as Russ does. Payton was a great player but Russ is a generational talent.

[imdaman99]

Too many IFs. I'll take the guy who is still improving and already an elite player that will have more shots at the title going forward.
:( Fk KD

[SpreeS]

This.

Payton never had the same impact as Russ does. Payton was a great player but Russ is a generational talent.


What impact? He has only stats and I guarantee, that OKC will miss PO again.

[atljonesbro]

Westbrook and it's not even close. This thread is just another chance for the Jordan mythologists to try and prop up their hero

[KungFuJoe]

Westbrook is the better player, individually.

But you'll never win a ring with Westbrook on your team. Even as a second option. Too many boneheaded plays...too much hero ball. He'll get a teammate a bucket but then jack up two ill advised shots in a row. He's good enough to beat the average teams all by himself but that style will never beat the elite teams.

Payton, on the other hand...he would be a great fit on any championship team...just not as the first option of course. Just never had the right luck/pieces around him. Some great players just don't win and it's not their fault.

And yes, I know he won a ring with the Heat, but I don't think anyone is really counting that.

[Overdrive]

Give me Gary Payton better defender and higher Basketball IQ than Russell Westbrick.


Westbrook. He's in another tier than Payton. Payton was never a top 3-5 player in the NBA During his prime.

Westbrook also have better all around numbers.

:lol

[atljonesbro]

:lol
You know I saw this too but for some reason I thought I was just seein shit and didn't go back and look :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

:lol


I became a believer of westbrook.

[CuhGetsBucks]

Lmfaooo

[Lebron23]

Westbrook officially surpassed Gary Payton. And the 2012 Oklahoma City Thunder would beat the 1996 Sonics in a best of 7 series.

[Whoah10115]

Lol.

Even in this era he's a stat padder. Gary Payton is better than Westbrook.

[SouBeachTalents]

Are some of these replies a joke?

GP hands down.

It's even arguable that he was the best player for a few years when MJ retired, certainly up there.
:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:

:roll:

Here is what Payton did when MJ was retired in his prime:

1994: 17/3/6, all-NBA 3rd team, 6th in MVP
1995: 21/3/7, all-NBA 2nd team, 9th in MVP

This doesn't even get to Seattle choking in the first round both years.

"Best player in the league" doe! This tells you a lot about how credible MJ stan hallucinations about how players were perceived in the 90's are...Payton was never in that conversation, let alone in 94' and 95'. Great player, top 40 all-time, though.

[ELITEpower23]

Westbrook averaged 27-11-7-4 in 2016 WCF

PLEASE post Payton's best series?

Also, Russ is an MVP winner. Payton aint

[Hakkim90cc]

I woulda loved seeing these two go at eachother in a seven game playoff series.


GP would get Russ so mad. If Beverley annoyed him you just know GP would be gnawin at his face and make him squirt in anger.

[Hakkim90cc]

Unrelated; westbrook deserves to get clowned for all the borderline homo outfits he wears coming in to the games. Wish we had more gp kg type of dusty ugly dudes to put these prettyboys in their place.

[Whoah10115]

Payton is a better defender, a better passer, has a bettrr midrange, much better in the post, much smarter, more instinctual, less prone to emotional mistakes. He put up 24 when it was harder to.

Payton makes his team better than Westbrook makes his. If Westbrook were playing two guard like Wade, for example, then he'd be a better player and then we could evaluate it fairly.

[Axe]

:roll:

Here is what Payton did when MJ was retired in his prime:

1994: 17/3/6, all-NBA 3rd team, 6th in MVP
1995: 21/3/7, all-NBA 2nd team, 9th in MVP

This doesn't even get to Seattle choking in the first round both years.

"Best player in the league" doe! This tells you a lot about how credible MJ stan hallucinations about how players were perceived in the 90's are...Payton was never in that conversation, let alone in 94' and 95'. Great player, top 40 all-time, though.
This retard still butthurt and weeping over overzealous mj stans. :lol

[light]

Westbrook is a better overall player. GP better defender obviously.

[Whoah10115]

This retard still butthurt and weeping over overzealous mj stans. :lol

I like that you quoted him, as he's been blocked a long time.

Talks about Payton's prime, except ignores the year Jordanw returned, or when he took over the team and was twice 1st Team All-NBA. That wasn't his prime tho.

Also, Payton never being top 3-5 is proof of Jordan stans...so, as good as he was, he was never top 5?

That's a knock on Jordan, lol.

[Axe]

I like that you quoted him, as he's been blocked a long time.

Talks about Payton's prime, except ignores the year Jordanw returned, or when he took over the team and was twice 1st Team All-NBA. That wasn't his prime tho.

Also, Payton never being top 3-5 is proof of Jordan stans...so, as good as he was, he was never top 5?

That's a knock on Jordan, lol.
Lol what do you mean by that?

[SATAN]

Westbrook averaged 27-11-7-4 in 2016 WCF

PLEASE post Payton's best series?

Also, Russ is an MVP winner. Payton aint

I'd rather have Payton as my PG though.

[Clippersfan86]

Payton. Westbrook is more gifted but Payton's IQ, two way domination ability and leadership and I'd choose him over WB as my floor general any day.

[ELITEpower23]

Payton. Westbrook is more gifted but Payton's IQ, two way domination ability and leadership and I'd choose him over WB as my floor general any day.

Sorry, the 3ball method says only points matter, nothing else.

Payton has scored over 23 ppg twice
Russell has scored over 23 ppg seven times

Sorry, by 3ball ranking laws Russell is the better player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry, the 3ball method says only points matter, nothing else.

Payton has scored over 23 ppg twice
Russell has scored over 23 ppg seven times

Sorry, by 3ball ranking laws Russell is the better player.

Yup, defense doesn't matter (unless comparing MJ to Curry, apparently).

[Reggie43]

I would take the smarter more fundamentally sound player (Payton). Its weird to me why modern era superstars fail to delegate roles and try to do everything by themselves (Westbrook) They would play better and win more if they focused on their strengths.

[Whoah10115]

Lol what do you mean by that?

Roundball_Rock has been blocked because he's nauseating.

[Axe]

Roundball_Rock has been blocked because he's nauseating.
Here in ish, you mean?

Guy should be banned permanently, tbh. He's been fuming for sometime now.

[1987_Lakers]

This is actually a good comparison, I'd rather have GP on my team, but by the time Westbrook retires I can see him being ranked ahead of GP All-time and I'm not even a Westbrook fan.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is actually a good comparison, I'd rather have GP on my team, but by the time Westbrook retires I can see him being ranked ahead of GP All-time and I'm not even a Westbrook fan.

He probably already has a better resume than Payton.

Westbrook vs. Payton (Resume Comparison)

MVP's: Westbrook 1, Payton 0
All-NBA: Payton 9, Westbrook 8
All-NBA 1st: 2 each
Top 5 MVP: Westbrook 4, Payton 1
Top 10 MVP: Payton 8, Westbrook 6
All-star: 9 each
All-D: Payton 9, Westbrook 0
DPOY: Payton 1, Westbrook

Statistically Westbrook trounces him but Payton was an all-time great defender and that doesn't show up neatly on paper.

Team success wise both are similar, although Payton had more success as a #1 option, but a lot of that is one season. Seattle did little outside of that in Payton's prime (they made a WCF in 93' but GP was a role player at that point). Payton also has a ring late in his career--but he was 6/2/2 in 24 MPG in the playoffs that year at age 37 so not exactly a big contributor to the team.

Payton had good longevity; the jury is still out on Westbrook but he has made it to 30 and is still a great player.

[Whoah10115]

Here in ish, you mean?

Guy should be banned permanently, tbh. He's been fuming for sometime now.

I just had to block because I hate the taste of vomit in my mouth.

[Axe]

I just had to block because I hate the taste of vomit in my mouth.
:roll:

[Lebron23]

Westbrook already surpassed Payton when he won an NBA MVP. And he is now another tier above Payton after averaging a triple double.

[miggyme1]

Payton is clearly the best pg,dont see how anyone can argue that. Westbrook is the better athlete.....better player is hard to judge since gary did lead prolly one of the worst teams ever to an NBA finals appearance. Nobody outside of Seattle remembers that 96 team.

[HoopsNY]

Westbrook has the better stats and has an MVP, but Payton is a better leader and defender. He also had his best year in the height of the defensive era, whereas Westbrook has been in an era that is much easier to score.

In addition, Westbrook has had the luxury of playing alongside elite scorers like KD, Harden, PG, and Beal. GP played alongside Kemp, but Kemp at no point in his career was an "elite" scorer.

Westbrook averages 7.7 assists in his career in the playoffs, which all consist of his peak years. GP's peak/prime (1995-2003) saw him average 7.2 assists in the playoffs. The difference is minimal, though Westbrook has been able to pull off years where he averaged 10-11 assists a game. GP's best were around 9.

At their best, Westbrook is giving you a triple double (30/10/10), bad/erratic shooting, and a lot of turnovers. GP is giving you near triple double numbers (24/9/7) with elite defense and leadership, and minimal turnovers.

One underrated aspect of GPs game was his ability to protect the ball. He averaged just 2.8 TOs during that stretch, whereas Westbrook averages 4. Westbrook has a playoff series where he averaged 6 TOs per game.

If GP is playing today, he probably doesn't stand out as much defensively, but he'd easily be one of the best defensive players, if not the best. He'd also put up 26-27 a game with 10 assists and possibly 8-9 boards. So I'm going with GP.

[999Guy]

Payton wasn’t defending shit. McMillan was.

Anyway, GP was better than Russ is now at the same age.

Russ definitely peaked higher for a 3 yr stretch.

Russ might have the better career.

[HoopsNY]

Payton wasn’t defending shit. McMillan was.

Anyway, GP was better than Russ is now at the same age.

Russ definitely peaked higher for a 3 yr stretch.

Russ might have the better career.

Yea, earlier on in his career. But Nate was a bench player so that's not really a fair assessment. Added to that is the fact that he retired by 1998. GP was DPOY in 1996 and by the 1999-03 seasons, a flood of great guards were in the league such as AI, Kobe, Allen, Penny, Vince, TMac, Francis, Davis, Kidd, etc. GP was the main guy on all of them and guarded them extremely well. Just look at what he did defensively in the postseason against the likes of Marbury, Abdul-Rauf, and MJ.

[kawhileonard2]

Payton for sure. Some guys are just stats.

[dankok8]

Payton actually knew how to run an offense and didn't play like a chicken with his head cut off. Decision making is the most important thing for a PG. Westbrook is more talented athlete but Payton is a better basketball player.

[tanibanana]

I never saw Payton became the best player for at least one season.
But I saw Westbrook, at least for one season, the best player of NBA. His MVP season that is.

[Mauzah]

Westbrook is way too out of control for my tastes and I'm a WB fan. Putting pressure on the D is great but you know what else is great... a controlled floor general who is a tenacious defender and who can lead your team while putting up quality numbers of his own. GP baby!

[scuzzy]

Westbrook can carry a team, Payton was never even the best player on his team.


RW's playoff "chokes" are still infinitely better than GP's best playoff series


Easy choice

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Glove for peak, prime or career. Just a far better player when it mattered and played defense unlike Russ and is top 3 ever defensively @ PG

[And1AllDay]

in the 16' wcf against warriors goatbrook put up

27-11-7-4

https://i.postimg.cc/L4GS56tp/goatbrook-over-payton.png

6'1 payton aint shit compared to goatbrook foh if you think otherwords :oldlol:

[dankok8]

in the 16' wcf against warriors goatbrook put up

27-11-7-4

https://i.postimg.cc/L4GS56tp/goatbrook-over-payton.png

6'1 payton aint shit compared to goatbrook foh if you think otherwords :oldlol:

Circle that FG% too... :lol

[Thenameless]

Westbrook is going to end his career the more decorated player stats wise, but he's one of the most misleading stat-padders in history. Gary Payton didn't win much either, but I think his style of play is still more conducive to winning. If I could add one of them at their best to this year's Lakers, I'm taking Payton (yes, even over MVP Westbrook). He "fits like a glove" into the Lakers' defensive style of play, and isn't a ball hog that will cramp Lebron's style.

[Thenameless]

Westbrook has the better stats and has an MVP, but Payton is a better leader and defender. He also had his best year in the height of the defensive era, whereas Westbrook has been in an era that is much easier to score.

In addition, Westbrook has had the luxury of playing alongside elite scorers like KD, Harden, PG, and Beal. GP played alongside Kemp, but Kemp at no point in his career was an "elite" scorer.

Westbrook averages 7.7 assists in his career in the playoffs, which all consist of his peak years. GP's peak/prime (1995-2003) saw him average 7.2 assists in the playoffs. The difference is minimal, though Westbrook has been able to pull off years where he averaged 10-11 assists a game. GP's best were around 9.

At their best, Westbrook is giving you a triple double (30/10/10), bad/erratic shooting, and a lot of turnovers. GP is giving you near triple double numbers (24/9/7) with elite defense and leadership, and minimal turnovers.

One underrated aspect of GPs game was his ability to protect the ball. He averaged just 2.8 TOs during that stretch, whereas Westbrook averages 4. Westbrook has a playoff series where he averaged 6 TOs per game.

If GP is playing today, he probably doesn't stand out as much defensively, but he'd easily be one of the best defensive players, if not the best. He'd also put up 26-27 a game with 10 assists and possibly 8-9 boards. So I'm going with GP.

Very reasonable take. You know your basketball.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Very reasonable take. You know your basketball.
that's weird because it reads like nothing but hypotheticals, old clichés and wishful thinking to me. :confusedshrug:

idk, but stating arbitrary takes as if every player in X decade magically increases their digits across every metric by 35% is honestly comedic. realistically, instead of nostalgically, chances are Gary Payton wouldn't have even made the league today with what he offered out of college in todays NBA, that's looking at it objectively in terms of talent pool.

a career 16ppg defensive specialist turning into a 27, 9, 10 player gave me a good chuckle.

[ClipperRevival]

that's weird because it reads like nothing but hypotheticals, old clichés and wishful thinking to me. :confusedshrug:

idk, but stating arbitrary takes as if every player in X decade magically increases their digits across every metric by 35% is honestly comedic. realistically, instead of nostalgically, chances are Gary Payton wouldn't have even made the league today with what he offered out of college in todays NBA, that's looking at it objectively in terms of talent pool.

a career 16ppg defensive specialist turning into a 27, 9, 10 player gave me a good chuckle.

GP had a 10 year run from 1994 - 2003: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 APG, 4.6 RPG, 2.1 SPG

And on top of giving you GOAT tier defense. So he wasn't just a defensive specialist. He was a great, all-around player. His numbers would no doubt be higher in this guard driven, wide open era. Maybe not 27 PPG but maybe closer to 24-25 PPG.

[scuzzy]

that's weird because it reads like nothing but hypotheticals, old clichés and wishful thinking to me. :confusedshrug:

idk, but stating arbitrary takes as if every player in X decade magically increases their digits across every metric by 35% is honestly comedic. realistically, instead of nostalgically, chances are Gary Payton wouldn't have even made the league today with what he offered out of college in todays NBA, that's looking at it objectively in terms of talent pool.

a career 16ppg defensive specialist turning into a 27, 9, 10 player gave me a good chuckle.
This

90's campfire stories are the best tho, truth is GP was a nobody for half his career that played with prime Kemp for nearly a decade with nothing to show, similar to Malone/Stockton.

He wasn't even the 5th option on Seattle until 1994 and even after they tossed Kemp in 98, Vin Baker still outshined Gary :oldlol:

Westbrook in his 3rd year was better than Gary Payton ever was, by his 4th year reached farther in the post season than GP ever did also. We'd all would be able to point to GP's playoff woes but he was so irrelevant to Seattles early success that noone can recall any. He was never even remotely close to a team factor or household name Westbrook has been.

Payton's white home Sonics jersey was the first jersey I ever bought too

[Thenameless]

Westbrook in his 3rd year was better than Gary Payton ever was, by his 4th year reached farther in the post season than GP ever did also.

This is incorrect.

[Stanley Kobrick]

This

90's campfire stories are the best tho, truth is GP was a nobody for half his career that played with prime Kemp for nearly a decade with nothing to show, similar to Malone/Stockton.

He wasn't even the 5th option on Seattle until 1994 and even after they tossed Kemp in 98, Vin Baker still outshined Gary :oldlol:

Westbrook in his 3rd year was better than Gary Payton ever was, by his 4th year reached farther in the post season than GP ever did also. We'd all would be able to point to GP's playoff woes but he was so irrelevant to Seattles early success that noone can recall any. He was never even remotely close to a team factor or household name Westbrook has been.

Payton's white home Sonics jersey was the first jersey I ever bought too
give them benefit of the doubt, most of these diehard 90's onlyfans are unaware that Payton actually played throughout the mid 2000's and was nothing special throughout that time. making their inflation theory quite laughable by default. they would have had to remain watching basketball after 1998 to be aware of this.

[Thenameless]

Circle that FG% too... :lol

That's why Westbrook is a loser.

[scuzzy]

This is incorrect.
It is, 96 was an easy sweep 4-0 but Jordan didn't give af and bulls let them breathe. In the first three games of the 96 Finals, Gary Payton scored a whopping total of 45 points on 40% shooting. That was his Westbrook moment

No one will ever remember or recall that though because GP wasn't the main event or limelight of the team ever

Westbrook teams have always depended on him to be on point or they flatline. Just like Rockets last year

[Thenameless]

It is, 96 was an easy sweep 4-0 but Jordan didn't give af and bulls let them breathe. In the first three games of the 96 Finals, Gary Payton scored a whopping total of 45 points on 40% shooting. That was his Westbrook moment

No one will ever remember or recall that though because GP wasn't the main event or limelight of the team ever

Westbrook teams have always depended on him to be on point or they flatline. Just like Rockets last year

Payton may have won his Championship coming off the bench, but that's still farther than Westbrook will ever go.

Westbrook flatlines when it counts. That's why Durant left.

[scuzzy]

Payton may have won his Championship coming off the bench, but that's still farther than Westbrook will ever go.

Westbrook flatlines when it counts. That's why Durant left.
And yet Westbrooks flatlines are still substantially better than what Gary Payton ever brought to the playoffs.

If Gary Payton was held to Russ standards with his poor man John Wall career production and typed all day on twitter like he barked back in the 90's, we all would be regurgitating his playoffs lapses instead of Westbrooks.

But see you can't recall a single Gary Payton moment in his career.

[Axe]

that's weird because it reads like nothing but hypotheticals, old clichés and wishful thinking to me. :confusedshrug:

idk, but stating arbitrary takes as if every player in X decade magically increases their digits across every metric by 35% is honestly comedic. realistically, instead of nostalgically, chances are Gary Payton wouldn't have even made the league today with what he offered out of college in todays NBA, that's looking at it objectively in terms of talent pool.

a career 16ppg defensive specialist turning into a 27, 9, 10 player gave me a good chuckle.

This

90's campfire stories are the best tho, truth is GP was a nobody for half his career that played with prime Kemp for nearly a decade with nothing to show, similar to Malone/Stockton.

He wasn't even the 5th option on Seattle until 1994 and even after they tossed Kemp in 98, Vin Baker still outshined Gary :oldlol:

Westbrook in his 3rd year was better than Gary Payton ever was, by his 4th year reached farther in the post season than GP ever did also. We'd all would be able to point to GP's playoff woes but he was so irrelevant to Seattles early success that noone can recall any. He was never even remotely close to a team factor or household name Westbrook has been.

Payton's white home Sonics jersey was the first jersey I ever bought too
Reading these stuff only made me wonder how he got to the hof somehow but most likely, it's because of his defensive prowess against the most decorated player in the league back then, the bald his hairness who went 1-9 without a certain sidekick and a certain mastermind. I've also learned that gp was so used to trash talking his opponents too and that he became 4th for most technical fouls of all-time. But if he were to be given an all-time ranking today, he might not even crack the top 50 rn i guess.

[Thenameless]

And yet Westbrooks flatlines are still substantially better than what Gary Payton ever brought to the playoffs.

If Gary Payton was held to Russ standards with his poor man John Wall career production and typed all day on twitter like he barked back in the 90's, we all would be regurgitating his playoffs lapses instead of Westbrooks.

But see you can't recall a single Gary Payton moment in his career.

Westbrook's play style doesn't win. He's a more current version of guys like Dominique Wilkins and Carmelo Anthony. An inefficient ball hog, that will cause his teams to lose in the playoffs. Losing will follow this guy around until he retires.

[scuzzy]

Westbrook's play style doesn't win. He's a more current version of guys like Dominique Wilkins and Carmelo Anthony. An inefficient ball hog, that will cause his teams to lose in the playoffs. Losing will follow this guy around until he retires.

Gary Payton lost more playoff games than Westbrook with the same playoff w/l % and he wasn't even the 3-4th option on nearly half them :oldlol:

[Thenameless]

Gary Payton lost more playoff games than Westbrook with the same playoff w/l % and he wasn't even the 3-4th option on nearly half them :oldlol:

Okay, let's go with this then. Payton and Westbrook have the same playoff win/loss percentage, but you say Westbrook is the more significant player on his teams. Not a good look for Westbrook now is it? I mean if your the team's supposed "go-to guy", you should be causing your team to win more games than some scrub right?

[scuzzy]

Okay, let's go with this then. Payton and Westbrook have the same playoff win/loss percentage, but you say Westbrook is the more significant player on his teams. Not a good look for Westbrook now is it? I mean if your the team's supposed "go-to guy", you should be causing your team to win more games than some scrub right?
That's your knock on Westbrook, he did a more shameful 20, 6, 6 on 47% in his very first series instead of averaging 13ppg like Gary Payton in his first 4 playoffs?

Your stance is it's better to be the less viral piece of a team when comparing two players who have the same w/l %. Because if you weren't even good enough to be a major role and involved in your teams failure, then you can't get criticized for it.

Honestly, have you ever played sports?

[HoopsNY]

that's weird because it reads like nothing but hypotheticals, old clichés and wishful thinking to me. :confusedshrug:

idk, but stating arbitrary takes as if every player in X decade magically increases their digits across every metric by 35% is honestly comedic. realistically, instead of nostalgically, chances are Gary Payton wouldn't have even made the league today with what he offered out of college in todays NBA, that's looking at it objectively in terms of talent pool.

a career 16ppg defensive specialist turning into a 27, 9, 10 player gave me a good chuckle.

It's called making an inference. between 2009-14, when offense/defense was more balanced, Westbrook averaged 20/5/7 on 43%. Since that time, when the league's offense has gone parabolic, Westbrook has averaged 26/9.5/10 on 44%.

These aren't hypotheticals based on nothing. These are hypotheticals based on real averages. If for six years Westbrook put up 20/5/7 on 43%, then the league's style of play shifted to a more fast paced, three point shooting league, and Westbrook saw his numbers dramatically increase, why would peak GP not experience similar, especially seeing that both guys are/were not great shooters?

You're focusing on GP's career which includes GP's non-peak/prime years. I'm saying PEAK GP probably puts up such numbers. If 30/10/10 is solidified in our minds as being Westbrook's production (peak numbers), then we have to speculate what PEAK Payton would have done in a similar circumstance.

Not to mention, peak GP is doing what he did in the height of the defensive era, let alone the slowest paced league in NBA history. What happens when the pace jumps from 88-90 like it did between 1997-00 to now 100? His numbers.....go down? How does that work? There's nothing intuitive about thinking that.

[HoopsNY]

GP had a 10 year run from 1994 - 2003: 21.4 PPG, 8.1 APG, 4.6 RPG, 2.1 SPG

And on top of giving you GOAT tier defense. So he wasn't just a defensive specialist. He was a great, all-around player. His numbers would no doubt be higher in this guard driven, wide open era. Maybe not 27 PPG but maybe closer to 24-25 PPG.

My point wasn't that GP would average 26-27 PPG for his career in this era. Rather, he would put up those numbers in his peak years. We saw GP putting up 24 PPG in 2000 when the league was at its peak defensively.

So he puts up 24 PPG in a much slower, much more aggressive league defensively, but wouldn't be able to put up 26 PPG in a MUCH faster league with MUCH more relaxed perimeter rules?

It's amazing how Bran stans (not you) will try to justify their stupidity when all data suggests otherwise.

[Stanley Kobrick]

It's called making an inference. between 2009-14, when offense/defense was more balanced, Westbrook averaged 20/5/7 on 43%. Since that time, when the league's offense has gone parabolic, Westbrook has averaged 26/9.5/10 on 44%.

These aren't hypotheticals based on noting. These are hypotheticals based on real averages. If for six years Westbrook put up 20/5/7 on 43%, then the league's style of play shifted to a more fast paced, three point shooting league, and Westbrook saw his numbers dramatically increase, why would peak GP not experience similar, especially seeing that both guys are/were not great shooters?

just more incoherent rambling and baseless gestures. and you can tell you don't know what your talking about since the most obvious detail is he went from being a 20-24 year old second option behind Durant, to being a 25 year old 1st option between your arbitrary benchmarks. that's something that basketball reference wont' spoon feed you

[HoopsNY]

This

90's campfire stories are the best tho, truth is GP was a nobody for half his career that played with prime Kemp for nearly a decade with nothing to show, similar to Malone/Stockton.

He wasn't even the 5th option on Seattle until 1994 and even after they tossed Kemp in 98, Vin Baker still outshined Gary :oldlol:

Westbrook in his 3rd year was better than Gary Payton ever was, by his 4th year reached farther in the post season than GP ever did also. We'd all would be able to point to GP's playoff woes but he was so irrelevant to Seattles early success that noone can recall any. He was never even remotely close to a team factor or household name Westbrook has been.

Payton's white home Sonics jersey was the first jersey I ever bought too

This is devoid of context. You're mentioning 1991-97 Kemp but failing to compare him with the likes of Kevin Durant. Show me where Shawn Kemp is in the NBA's top 50, then show me where Kevin Durant is. Not to mention, Westbrook has played with a plethora of great talent, mainly elite scorers. If GP has an elite scorer like Malone or MJ, what do you think his success would have been?

Vin Baker and Kemp were never elite scorers. In fact, neither of the two ever finished in the top 10 in scoring in their careers. Harden, Beal, George, and KD all have. And all have been elite scorers with or without Westbrook.

How does that gets lost in this conversation is beyond me.

[HoopsNY]

give them benefit of the doubt, most of these diehard 90's onlyfans are unaware that Payton actually played throughout the mid 2000's and was nothing special throughout that time. making their inflation theory quite laughable by default. they would have had to remain watching basketball after 1998 to be aware of this.

What are you talking about? The NBA enacted rule changes for the 2004-05 season. Payton was 36 years old then and on his last lap. In 2006 and 2007, his final two seasons, he played coming off the bench, and he was 37 and 38 years old.

You talk about "90s onlyfans" but you're ignoring the actual data and facts.

[scuzzy]

This is devoid of context. You're mentioning 1991-97 Kemp but failing to compare him with the likes of Kevin Durant. Show me where Shawn Kemp is in the NBA's top 50, then show me where Kevin Durant is. Not to mention, Westbrook has played with a plethora of great talent, mainly elite scorers. If GP has an elite scorer like Malone or MJ, what do you think his success would have been?

Vin Baker and Kemp were never elite scorers. In fact, neither of the two ever finished in the top 10 in scoring in their careers. Harden, Beal, George, and KD all have. And all have been elite scorers with or without Westbrook.

How does that gets lost in this conversation is beyond me.
good point :applause:


https://sports.ws/thegp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/110906lalakers.jpg

:oldlol::hammerhead:

[HoopsNY]

And yet Westbrooks flatlines are still substantially better than what Gary Payton ever brought to the playoffs.

If Gary Payton was held to Russ standards with his poor man John Wall career production and typed all day on twitter like he barked back in the 90's, we all would be regurgitating his playoffs lapses instead of Westbrooks.

But see you can't recall a single Gary Payton moment in his career.

How are they "substantially better"? Just look at their prime playoff numbers.

GP Playoffs 1995-03: 22/5/7/2 on 45%
Westbrook Playoffs 2010-20: 25/7/8/2 on 41%

This includes 2015-Present where stats are considerably more inflated with relaxed perimeter rules and increased spacing. In addition, you're not even accounting for the fact that Westbrook has played with a plethora of elite offensive players, whereas GP played with shit most of the time. Yet the numbers are very similar. And we're talking about playoff moments, did you watch last night's game?

[HoopsNY]

good point :applause:


https://sports.ws/thegp/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/110906lalakers.jpg

:oldlol::hammerhead:

This is an image of 2004. C'mon. GP was 35 by that time and clearly over the hill. We're discussing these guys at their peaks here and you're focusing in on GPs declining years.

[HoopsNY]

just more incoherent rambling and baseless gestures. and you can tell you don't know what your talking about since the most obvious detail is he went from being a 20-24 year old second option behind Durant, to being a 25 year old 1st option between your arbitrary benchmarks. that's something that basketball reference wont' spoon feed you

This is nonsense. Westbrook was All-NBA 2nd Team in 2011, 2012, and 2013. In 2014, he wasn't selected, largely due to his injury and only playing in 46 games. But Westbrook hit the ground running. His rise in numbers correlates with the rest of the league. He isn't some anomaly.

Don't believe me? Go look at the league triple doubles from 2009-14. Then compare them to now. Guess what, Westbrook isn't the only one who has seen an exponential rise in triple doubles. The entire league has.

Bran Stans want us to ignore Westbrook's first six seasons in the NBA as if he wasn't an elite player. Meanwhile, I clearly said at Westbrook's best, he's giving you 30/10/10. But Bran stans have an agenda, they want to isolate the first 60 years of the league as if it didn't happen.

[scuzzy]

How are they "substantially better"? Just look at their prime playoff numbers.

GP Playoffs 1995-03: 22/5/7/2 on 45%
Westbrook Playoffs 2010-20: 25/7/8/2 on 41%


this ones cute

a 10 year sample size from when Westbrook was 20yo-30yo

vs

a 8 year sample size from when Payton was 25yo-32yo

You're on a roll, wouldn't want to actually gauge Paytons first 10 years vs Westbrooks first 10 years. :ohwell:

[HoopsNY]

this ones cute

a 10 year sample size from when Westbrook was 20yo-30yo

vs

a 8 year sample size from when Payton was 25yo-32yo

You're on a roll, wouldn't want to actually gauge Paytons first 10 years vs Westbrooks first 10 years. :ohwell:

How many times do I have to say this, we are comparing peak/prime years here. It is the basis for establishing what a PEAK GP would do in today's league. It's not that hard to understand. If GP is in his peak/prime now, what would he be doing?

[scuzzy]

This is an image of 2004. C'mon. GP was 35 by that time and clearly over the hill. We're discussing these guys at their peaks here and you're focusing in on GPs declining years.
ah so it's only fitting to discuss the best years of Gary Payton

Seem to be quite normal to critisizing Curry at 33 and Lebron at 37 right now, or ya know Westbrook at 32 right now. Just not Payton at 34? :(

Westbrook has played 1 less NBA season than Payton's tenure as a Laker. So it's fair game, get over it

[scuzzy]

How many times do I have to say this, we are comparing peak/prime years here. It is the basis for establishing what a PEAK GP would do in today's league. It's not that hard to understand. If GP is in his peak/prime now, what would he be doing?
So Westbrook was in his prime at a young 21-22yo? And Payton just wasn't until 26? Why's that? Smells like another obvious reason to take WB over GP.

You're cherry picking your personal preferences based on GP's career peak and sitting it next to Westbrooks rookie years when he was Durants wingman. You're not comparing their primes at all, just when it figuratively looks best for Payton.

Funniest part about it is WB's 10 year spread still obliterate that prime 8 year sample what you think resembles Gary Payton. Which it doesn't, his entirety of his career does though, like the many of years where Payton was nothing more than a role player. All 6-7 of them

[HoopsNY]

ah so it's only fitting to discuss the best years of Gary Payton

Seem to be quite normal to critisizing Curry at 33 and Lebron at 37 right now, or ya know Westbrook at 32 right now. Just not Payton at 34? :(

Westbrook has played 1 less NBA season than Payton's tenure as a Laker. So it's fair game, get over it

You must have me mixed up with someone else. When did I ever discuss Steph at 33 or LeBron at 37? And again, how many times do I have to say it, peak Westbrook gives you 30/10/10. This is the third time I am repeating this. Nowhere did I exclude Westbrook's best years. his prime is what it is, and his best year is what it is. I have mentioned both.

If Westbrook is putting up 30/10/10 on low efficiency in an offensively inflated league. Then peak GP produces what? Intuition tells me, based on data, that peak GP likely puts up 26-27/8-9/9-10 on higher efficiency with better defense.

How is that unreasonable given all the other factors? Bran stans want to act like data is timeless, but only for THEIR era. It doesn't work with that way.

[HoopsNY]

So Westbrook was in his prime at a young 21-22yo? And Payton just wasn't until 26? Why's that? Smells like another obvious reason to take WB over GP.

You're cherry picking your personal preferences based on GP's career peak and sitting it next to Westbrooks rookie years when he was Durants wingman. You're not comparing their primes at all, just when it figuratively looks best for Payton.

Funniest part about it is WB's 10 year spread still obliterate that prime 8 year sample what you think resembles Gary Payton. Which it doesn't, his entirety of his career does though, like the many of years where Payton was nothing more than a role player. All 6-7 of them

I'm not cherry picking anything. Westbrook was All-NBA in 2011, 2012, 2013, and would have been again in 2014 had he not gotten injured. So those years don't get to count as his prime years because you say so? Prime years are what they are. He hit the ground running better than GP did. I admit that.

But once again, for the 149239th time, this is my assessment of what both peak players would have done, in both the regular season and playoffs.

As for him "obliterating" GP's 8 year spread, then GP went 21/5/8/2 on 47% to Westbrook's 25/8/9/2 on 44%. The playoff numbers are even closer. On a surface level, it does appear that Westbrook is the better performer, but that is devoid of any context. As for "obliterate", lol, well then we have to agree on a definition for obliterate cause clearly the numbers are better for Westbrook, but FAR from obliterating.

Anyway, I already said, Westbrook puts up better stats but GP is the better leader and defensive player. When you account for pace/era, the numbers would be much more similar.

Would you rather have Chris Paul or Westbrook?

[Druckenmiller]

For me it's Gary Payton.

Two totally different players. Payton was a product of his time where PGs played to the strengths of their team and mostly let the offense come to them. It's rare that you'll find a PG from that era who had overshooting the ball in their DNA. If anything, a lot of the great PGs from that era should have shot it more and been a more prominent focal point of their team's offense. Payton included.

On the other hand, I'm not sure there's been a player in my lifetime I've had a bigger love-hate relationship with than Westbook. I love his fire and his comepetitiveness, and hate his decision making a shot selection. He's definitely a more talented and gifted player than Payton, but I can't remember an NBA player who made me say "WTF are you doing?" more.

It's hard to win big when that is a major component of your game.

[Thenameless]

That's your knock on Westbrook, he did a more shameful 20, 6, 6 on 47% in his very first series instead of averaging 13ppg like Gary Payton in his first 4 playoffs?

Your stance is it's better to be the less viral piece of a team when comparing two players who have the same w/l %. Because if you weren't even good enough to be a major role and involved in your teams failure, then you can't get criticized for it.

Honestly, have you ever played sports?

Look, I know you're hurting because I caught your mistake. Just own it and live with it.

[HoopsNY]

For me it's Gary Payton.

Two totally different players. Payton was a product of his time where PGs played to the strengths of their team and mostly let the offense come to them. It's rare that you'll find a PG from that era who had overshooting the ball in their DNA. If anything, a lot of the great PGs from that era should have shot it more and been a more prominent focal point of their team's offense. Payton included.

On the other hand, I'm not sure there's been a player in my lifetime I've had a bigger love-hate relationship with than Westbook. I love his fire and his comepetitiveness, and hate his decision making a shot selection. He's definitely a more talented and gifted player than Payton, but I can't remember an NBA player who made me say "WTF are you doing?" more.

It's hard to win big when that is a major component of your game.

On ISH, you've committed the cardinal sin. You're using context to fit your analysis. Don't do that, ISH fanboys only want to establish the last 6 years as being relevant (even when data from the SAME players drastically decrease before that).

And you're right about 90s PGs rarely overshooting the ball. It was a different style of play, particularly from 1995-96 onwards. By the late 90s and early 2000s, the league had really slowed down, yet guys like Payton still produced. That matters to actual fans of the game. And it's only reasonable to think that he would post increased production if he's playing in a post-2015 league.

[plowking]

On ISH, you've committed the cardinal sin. You're using context to fit your analysis. Don't do that, ISH fanboys only want to establish the last 6 years as being relevant (even when data from the SAME players drastically decrease before that).

And you're right about 90s PGs rarely overshooting the ball. It was a different style of play, particularly from 1995-96 onwards. By the late 90s and early 2000s, the league had really slowed down, yet guys like Payton still produced. That matters to actual fans of the game. And it's only reasonable to think that he would post increased production if he's playing in a post-2015 league.

For as inflated as stats are claimed to be these days, is it maybe just a case of the players being more gifted and better?

The year that Payton was putting up his 22ppg type seasons, Cuttino Mobley, Antoine Walker, Jalen Rose and Allan Houston were putting up 20+ ppg seasons...

I'd argue the guys that would be considered "less talented" in todays game that fall under the same branch like Jerami Grant, Julius Randle, Collin Sexton, etc are as a collection more talented than the guys from the early 2000's.

The game is better now, with guys far more multi faceted and able to hurt you in more ways. Westbrook is most certainly a more talented and better player than GP. For as much praise as GP gets for his defensive prowess, Westbrook is an absolute menace and terrorises opponents with activity on that end too. He is the more complete and dangerous player on offense too.

[HoopsNY]

For as inflated as stats are claimed to be these days, is it maybe just a case of the players being more gifted and better?

More gifted and better.....than themselves? The assumption is that stars prior to 2015 wouldn't have been able to hang in today's era or evolved as players always do.

I mean come on. These are NBA stars. If you give them the same style of play, same medical advancements, same relaxed perimeter rules, lower minutes played per game, load management, and all of the other aspects that contribute to what we see today, you don't think they would produce?

So basically, the NBA produced inferior talent for the first 65 years of its history, only to have the last 5-6 years produce the best and brightest, when those very best and brightest came into the league before that and didn't see the kind of production we saw now?

What changed? Cause KD, Westbrook, Paul, LeBron, Steph, etc didn't enter the league in 2016.


The year that Payton was putting up his 22ppg type seasons, Cuttino Mobley, Antoine Walker, Jalen Rose and Allan Houston were putting up 20+ ppg seasons...


And?


I'd argue the guys that would be considered "less talented" in todays game that fall under the same branch like Jerami Grant, Julius Randle, Collin Sexton, etc are as a collection more talented than the guys from the early 2000's.


This isn't just about talent. This is about a myriad of topics. The discussion itself is problematic because it pre-supposes all other factors being equal when in fact, they aren't.

You can't remove hand-checking from the game today and then transplant today's players to those eras and assume players continue to produce at this rate WITH hand-checking. If it had an impact on production in 2005 onward, then surely it would have an impact with guys today.

Production is up for a reason. I mean, seriously, as an example - the league switched the shot clock rules from 24 to 14 on offensive rebounds. That has an obvious impact where numbers are concerned.

Just look at what happened when the league changed that specific rule in 2018.

2018: 86.1 FGA
2019: 89.2 FGA
2020: 88.8 FGA
2021: 88.4 FGA

Take a look at PPG:

2018: 106.3
2019: 111.2
2020: 111.8
2021: 112.1

Teams are attempting more FGs (which also involves more 3s), but changing the rule obviously speeds up the game, thus having more production.


The game is better now, with guys far more multi faceted and able to hurt you in more ways. Westbrook is most certainly a more talented and better player than GP. For as much praise as GP gets for his defensive prowess, Westbrook is an absolute menace and terrorises opponents with activity on that end too. He is the more complete and dangerous player on offense too.

Multi-faceted? Teams don't run offensive schemes anymore with the exception of a few. I mean, does anyone run offensive schemes like that of the Warriors from 2014-15? How about the Suns from the mid-2000s, the Spurs in the late 2000s, or the Kings from the early 2000s, or Chicago and their triangle offense?

Trading three point shots isn't being more multi-faceted. Westbrook is an all-time great. Of course he will produce, and he would do so in any era. The problem is assuming other greats from other eras wouldn't do the same given that all other factors favor them as well.

Rajon Rondo shot 26% from three point range for his first 9 years in the league. Since 2015, he's shooting 36%. I guess Rondo is just magically better than....himself? Or do players simply evolve....except for anyone who played prior to 2015....excluding guys who currently play but also played prior to 2010? You see how ridiculous this gets?

[Lebron23]

Westbrook is the more accomplished player. And peak by peak the better player than Gary Payton
Payton edged him defensively.

[Lebron23]

I doubt Payton is capable of carrying that OKC Thunder team and 2021 Wizards in the playoffs.

[NBAGOAT]

I’m not a big westbrook fan but peak westbrook is just better and has good longevity now. Maybe he’s not higher for now but he’ll be higher on an all time list at the end of his career unless he falls off a cliff this year

[Manny98]

Westbrook easily

[houston]

Westbrook is the more accomplished player. And peak by peak the better player than Gary Payton
Payton edged him defensively.

this true right here. Payton was choke artist. If people complain Westbrook short comings Payton had them too.

[Lebron23]

Give me Gary Payton. He at least played defense.

[Blazers32]

:rolleyes: