Will there ever be another forward as skilled as Larry Bird?

[AngelEyes]

I doubt it. I think if you drop Bird in today's game the only two guys who can be in the same argument as far as skill level are LeBron, who is obviously lacking in the shooting department compared to Bird, and Steph who is a guard. For Bird to be a legit 6'9"-6'10" and to be as complete as he was and skilled, I doubt we'll see another player like that. One thing that people forget about Bird was that he was a rugged rebounder at the small forward position. He wasn't afraid to mix it up down low with bigger players.

[imdaman99]

You don't think Durant is as comparatively skilled as him? :biggums:

[AngelEyes]

You don't think Durant is as comparatively skilled as him? :biggums:

I think Bird is a significantly better passer and a noticeably better rebounder. I think he was also a better low post scorer and post defender.

[Dray n Klay]

LOL LeBron is far more skilled than Bird


Get those nostalgia glasses off, OP

[Mr. Jabbar]

hard to say. lebron didnt come close, tho.

[sd3035]

Durant

[AngelEyes]

LOL LeBron is far more skilled than Bird


Get those nostalgia glasses off, OP

LeBron can't even approach that level of shooting.

[Dray n Klay]

https://media.giphy.com/media/F8Kqx8APKN5AY/giphy.gif


Is that supposed to be a coordinated human being?? :roll:

[Dray n Klay]

LeBron can't even approach that level of shooting.

Give me LeBron's superior ball handling, finishing, passing, and off-ball game, over Birds Shooting

[JT123]

https://media.giphy.com/media/F8Kqx8APKN5AY/giphy.gif


Is that supposed to be a coordinated human being?? :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[bigkingsfan]

3 >

[AngelEyes]

Give me LeBron's superior ball handling, finishing, passing, and off-ball game, over Birds Shooting

Bird was a better passer and off the ball player.

[Lebronxrings]

Lebron.

One of the best passers, one of the best rebounders, top shot, top defender, etc.

[CuterThanRubio]

LeBron can't even approach that level of shooting.

Wrong.

Their career percentages are very close.

LeBron is better than Bird, you serious?

[Dray n Klay]

Bird Career 3 point shooting 37.6% on 0.7 makes a game

LeBron Career 3 point shooting 34% on 1.4 makes a game



So LeBron shoots 3% less, but makes twice as many 3's a game




Kinda shows you how media perception and the narrative clouds peoples judgement on the true facts.



I'll take LeBrons double the amount of makes over Birds 3% advantage






Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

[Lebron23]

Lebron James

[Segatti]

Lebron James.

[Micku]

Bird Career 3 point shooting 37.6% on 0.7 makes a game

LeBron Career 3 point shooting 34% on 1.4 makes a game



So LeBron shoots 3% less, but makes twice as many 3's a game




Kinda shows you how media perception and the narrative clouds peoples judgement on the true facts.



I'll take LeBrons double the amount of makes over Birds 3% advantage






Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

No he wasn't. He was a better finisher tho.

The shooting consist more than just the 3pt. You have FT and mid range game. LBJ was actually at this best when he was with the Heat. But that was more because his shot selection was epic. I don't know what happened when he got with the Cavs. Basically, LBJ never got to the 50/40/90 club. Bird did it twice.

And Bird was more skilled in the post and off the ball movement, though LBJ was pretty good at that regard when he was with the Heat.

LBJ is a better finisher and better at the open court.

LBJ is a better creator, while I think Bird is the better passer. Both are great passers tho, so that's a wash I think.

LBJ is a better defender in his prime while Bird was solid.

Bird is the better rebounder, although LBJ is good at it too. Bird plays PF better for me but I guess it just depends on what you want out of your PF.

[Round Mound]

Bird Was a Hybrid of Lebron, Dirk and Steph. There Will Never Be Another Like Him.

[mr4speed]

Give me LeBron's superior ball handling, finishing, passing, and off-ball game, over Birds Shooting
Bird was a better passer than Lebron, more creative. Lebron's slight edge in assists per game is due to his increased time playing the PG role. I can't recall seeing Lebron make bounce passes between opponents legs, or throwing length of the court passes after a made basket? Lebron's off-ball game is better? How? I'll take Bird's grit, toughness, willing to fist fight attitude over Lebron. I can't recall seeing Bird flop or fail to deal with excessive heat, fatigue or cramps.

[Micku]

Bird Was a Hybrid of Lebron, Dirk and Steph. There Will Never Be Another Like Him.

Just LBJ and Dirk, with better rebounding I think.

He ain't no Steph unless you are talking about off the ball movement. Other than that, they are different.

[Pushxx]

Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/thelaserman/Reaction%20Face/ernie.jpg

[Prime_Shaq]

Lebron > Bird in finishing ability and man to man defense.
Bird > LeBron and passing,shooting,help defense,off ball and clutch plays.

[Dray n Klay]

Lebron > Bird in finishing ability and man to man defense.
Bird > LeBron and passing,shooting,help defense,off ball and clutch plays.


:oldlol:

[bizil]

When it comes to fundamental skills level, it doesn't look like it as of now. Bird had an EPIC BLEND of shooting, passing, footwork, IQ (knowing what to do and when), and rebounding technique. When u factor in his size at the SF, it made him unstoppable. KD has many of the elements in this regard. And his handles are superior to Bird. BUT his passing and rebounding isn't on Bird's level.

When it comes to the big three stats as a package (points, rebounds, assists), Bird is the most skilled forward of all time. 24 points, 10 boards, and 6 dimes a night. Bron is right there of course, but Bird's 10 boards a night swing it slightly his way.

Now in terms of versatility, Bron is the most skilled forward of all time. Bron can play or defend PG to PF. The numbers than Bron puts up using that versatility puts him over every other forward.

So you can judge skill by technique, stat lines, or positional versatility. In the first two categories, I think Bird is the best forward of all time. But in terms of positional versatility, Bron is superior to Bird.

[Funktion]

Bran has come full circle outside of 3 feet

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html?mobile=false#shooting::none

[ILLsmak]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/thelaserman/Reaction%20Face/ernie.jpg

What made Larry a beast was his mentality. I'm sure people have skill sets that go beyond his tbh... but his tenacity and mental toughness was what allowed him to play in the post, get boards, make game winners...

so it'll be tough. I don't even think there is a player in the NBA at all like him. And if there is someone, he's not as talented as Bird was.

-Smak

[KungFuJoe]

Bird was definitely more SKILLED than Bran.

Bird had none of the physical advantages that Lebron had except for height. So how do you think Bird is considered one of the best ever and most people think he's actually better, overall, than Lebron?

Luck?

[bdreason]

Durant can definitely get in the conversation, but I'm not sure his game will develop enough... mainly because it isn't necessary in the modern game.

[GrapeApe]

Lebron a better shooter and off-ball player than Bird? :roll:

What's next? Calling Lebron the greatest white player ever? Calling him a better shooter and off-ball player than Bird is nearly as ridiculous. Bird is a top 10 all time shooter and arguably the greatest off-ball player ever.

[Dray n Klay]

Lebron a better shooter and off-ball player than Bird? :roll:

What's next? Calling Lebron the greatest white player ever? Calling him a better shooter and off-ball player than Bird is nearly as ridiculous. Bird is a top 10 all time shooter and arguably the greatest off-ball player ever.

LeBron makes twice as many 3's as Bird shooting only 3% worse




At worst, they are equal as shooters

[hateraid]

Prime Tmac

[GrapeApe]

LeBron makes twice as many 3's as Bird shooting only 3% worse




At worst, they are equal as shooters

What about mid range? FT's?

I don't care if Lebron takes more 3's. Everyone takes more 3's in today's game. Bird is a better % shooter in every facet. He's a better shooter. Lebron himself wouldn't even argue that.

[AngelEyes]

If Bird took more three pointers his three point percentage would likely be significantly higher considering he took less than one a game and I am sure a good amount of his three attempts were end of the shot clock/quarter shots.

[Dray n Klay]

What about mid range? FT's?

I don't care if Lebron takes more 3's. Everyone takes more 3's in today's game. Bird is a better % shooter in every facet. He's a better shooter. Lebron himself wouldn't even argue that.

So you would take a 37% shooter making 0.7 3's , versus a 34% shooter making 1.7 3's a game? :oldlol:




Who would you say is a better scorer? Someone making 7 FG a game shooting 50%, or someone making 14 FG a game shooting 47%?



Its the same scenario, the person making twice the 3 pointers shooting only 3% worse should be the better shooter.

[Bernie Nips]

So you would take a 37% shooter making 0.7 3's , versus a 34% shooter making 1.7 3's a game? :oldlol:




Who would you say is a better scorer? Someone making 7 FG a game shooting 50%, or someone making 14 FG a game shooting 47%?



Its the same scenario, the person making twice the 3 pointers shooting only 3% worse should be the better shooter.

I've read some dumb s.hit on this forum, but this is close to taking the cake.

[GrapeApe]

So you would take a 37% shooter making 0.7 3's , versus a 34% shooter making 1.7 3's a game? :oldlol:




Who would you say is a better scorer? Someone making 7 FG a game shooting 50%, or someone making 14 FG a game shooting 47%?



Its the same scenario, the person making twice the 3 pointers shooting only 3% worse should be the better shooter.

By your dumb ass logic you could also say Shaq was a better FT shooter than Steve Nash because Shaq took and made more FT's. That's an extreme example, but the point is thst volume has NOTHING to do with the argument. Lebron taking more 3's is a product of the way the game is now played. Lebron is NOT an elite 3 point shooter compared to the rest of the league. Bird WAS.

[Dray n Klay]

By your dumb ass logic you could also say Shaq was a better FT shooter than Steve Nash because Shaq took and made more FT's. Volume has NOTHING to do with the argument. Lebron taking more 3's is a product of the way the game is now played. Lebron is NOT an elite 3 point shooter compared to the rest of the league. Bird WAS.

Steve Nash shot 40% better from the FT line than Shaq



Bird shoots 3% better from 3 than LeBron, on half the makes. I'll take double the volume for 3% less efficiency.


Your comparison doesn't apply here.

[GrapeApe]

Steve Nash shot 40% better from the FT line than Shaq



Bird shoots 3% better from 3 than LeBron, on half the makes. I'll take double the volume for 3% less efficiency.


Your comparison doesn't apply here.

So would you call a 77% FT shooter better than an 80% FT shooter just because the 77% shooter took more FT attempts? Nobody would. The player who shoots 80% is the better FT shooter, period.

[Dray n Klay]

So would you call a 77% FT shooter better than an 80% FT shooter just because the 77% shooter took more FT attempts? Nobody would. The player who shoots 80% is the better FT shooter, period.

The difference is that every FT is shot the same. IE. regardless of how many FT's you take, the difficulty is the same, its repetitive.



However, for 3 pointers, if you take more 3's, chances are you won't get ideal looks, and have to take more suboptimal shots. The more shots you take, the harder those shots will be :confusedshrug:


You can't compare volume FT shooters to 3 point shots




Stop with the trolling and just admit LeBron was as good if not better at shooting than Bird :confusedshrug:

[GrapeApe]

The difference is that every FT is shot the same. IE. regardless of how many FT's you take, the difficulty is the same, its repetitive.



However, for 3 pointers, if you take more 3's, chances are you won't get ideal looks, and have to take more suboptimal shots. The more shots you take, the harder those shots will be :confusedshrug:


You can't compare volume FT shooters to 3 point shots




Stop with the trolling and just admit LeBron was as good if not better at shooting than Bird :confusedshrug:

Now you're backpedaling. :oldlol:

You still didn't address the other issue I brought up. Lebron is NOT an elite 3 point shooter compared to the rest of the league. Bird WAS. With a huge league wide disparity in 3 point attempts between Bird's era and today, you have to compare how they shot relative to the competition.

[CuterThanRubio]

Please remember that the majority of Larry Bird's three point attempts were practically unguarded, and that's as good as he could do?

[Smoke117]

Puting aside athleticism...Larry Bird is probably the most skilled player all time...with Karl Malone second. I don't know if people realize this...but Larry Bird and Karl Malone had the same exact vertical...28 inches. Neither player was exactly an athletic stud...but they were tireless workers and made themselves great...this is especially true with Malone as Larry was much more talented at basketball then he was...it's absurd how underrated Malone was...he wasn't even close to being a great athlete, but was possibly the hardest worker the NBA has ever seen and MADE HIMSELF GREAT. All people want to talk about is tim duncan...a CENTER who was pretending to be a PF...Karl malone is like David Robinson...completely dominant when he played, but gets no respect now that he's retired...it's ****ing pathetic.

[GrapeApe]

Please remember that the majority of Larry Bird's three point attempts were practically unguarded, and that's as good as he could do?

Look at how he shot compared to the league average. Bird was one of the best in the league. That's all that matters. It's no different than when guys would put up crazy numbers when the pace was highly inflated. You can't just look at the numbers, you have to compare them versus the rest of the league at that time. That's the only accurate way to compare across eras.

[Round Mound]

Puting aside athleticism...Larry Bird is probably the most skilled player all time...with Karl Malone second. I don't know if people realize this...but Larry Bird and Karl Malone had the same exact vertical...28 inches. Neither player was exactly an athletic stud...but they were tireless workers and made themselves great...this is especially true with Malone as Larry was much more talented at basketball then he was...it's absurd how underrated Malone was...he wasn't even close to being a great athlete, but was possibly the hardest worker the NBA has ever seen and MADE HIMSELF GREAT. All people want to talk about is tim duncan...a CENTER who was pretending to be a PF...Karl malone is like David Robinson...completely dominant when he played, but gets no respect now that he's retired...it's ****ing pathetic.

Malone not athletic? :rolleyes: Strenght is one of the traits of great athleticism and Malone was along Barkley the strongest Powerforward of his era. So yes he was athletic. I do agree that Malone had one of the most impressive work ethics along side Stockton, Bird, Kareem and others. Malone wasn`t very skilled compared to Bird though, other than that Mid Range Face Up Jumper he developed later in his career through work ethic Bird could do more things cause he was more talented. Malone`s work ethic and days in the weightlifting conditioning etc was legendary though.

[Overdrive]

Bird Career 3 point shooting 37.6% on 0.7 makes a game

LeBron Career 3 point shooting 34% on 1.4 makes a game

So LeBron shoots 3% less, but makes twice as many 3's a game

Kinda shows you how media perception and the narrative clouds peoples judgement on the true facts.

I'll take LeBrons double the amount of makes over Birds 3% advantage

Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

Let's wait for Lebron's twilight years. His "shooting" might suffer significantly, too.

[90sgoat]

Puting aside athleticism...Larry Bird is probably the most skilled player all time...with Karl Malone second. I don't know if people realize this...but Larry Bird and Karl Malone had the same exact vertical...28 inches. Neither player was exactly an athletic stud...but they were tireless workers and made themselves great...this is especially true with Malone as Larry was much more talented at basketball then he was...it's absurd how underrated Malone was...he wasn't even close to being a great athlete, but was possibly the hardest worker the NBA has ever seen and MADE HIMSELF GREAT. All people want to talk about is tim duncan...a CENTER who was pretending to be a PF...Karl malone is like David Robinson...completely dominant when he played, but gets no respect now that he's retired...it's ****ing pathetic.

Agree about Malone being the greatest PF of all time. MJ ruined his legacy.

[Dr Hawk]

Bird Career 3 point shooting 37.6% on 0.7 makes a game

LeBron Career 3 point shooting 34% on 1.4 makes a game



So LeBron shoots 3% less, but makes twice as many 3's a game




Kinda shows you how media perception and the narrative clouds peoples judgement on the true facts.



I'll take LeBrons double the amount of makes over Birds 3% advantage






Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

https://media0.giphy.com/media/asKgALccPDUFW/200.gif

[Bawkish]

Bird, even in his porcelain frame of a body with a broken cheekbone managed to make a difference and lead his team to victory

Lebron could barely breath without an airconditioning and had to be lifted to the bench :lol

[Gileraracer]

LOL LeBron is far more skilled than Bird


Get those nostalgia glasses off, OP

Lebron can't shoot.

[aj1987]

LeBron - Passing, Defense, and finishing
Bird - Rebounding and shooting, off-ball, and post play

[StephHamann]

I doubt it. I think if you drop Bird in today's game the only two guys who can be in the same argument as far as skill level are LeBron.

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[feyki]

I think smartest and highest iq more accurate words to Bird . I didn't ever see Lebron assisted the ball when he hustling in the ground but i did see by Bird . His reactions like magic . Definitely most genius player ever .

[Cali Syndicate]

So you would take a 37% shooter making 0.7 3's , versus a 34% shooter making 1.7 3's a game? :oldlol:




Who would you say is a better scorer? Someone making 7 FG a game shooting 50%, or someone making 14 FG a game shooting 47%?



Its the same scenario, the person making twice the 3 pointers shooting only 3% worse should be the better shooter.

In no world would bird ever be held to 28% outside of 5 feet for a playoff series in his prime. Not would allowing a 3 foot cushion be a defensive game plan against bird.

[Cali Syndicate]

Bird Career 3 point shooting 37.6% on 0.7 makes a game

LeBron Career 3 point shooting 34% on 1.4 makes a game



So LeBron shoots 3% less, but makes twice as many 3's a game




Kinda shows you how media perception and the narrative clouds peoples judgement on the true facts.



I'll take LeBrons double the amount of makes over Birds 3% advantage






Overall LeBron was the better shooter, but the media will never tell you that

Media narrative? Lebron is amongst the worst for mid range scoring this season. And looking at those mid range %s, hes been pretty bad his entire career outside 2 of seasons. Bird is considered one of the best mid range shooters of all time. And bird was actually a good three point shooter considering he grew up playing basketball without a three being a part of the game.

[aj1987]

In no world would bird ever be held to 28% outside of 5 feet for a playoff series in his prime. Not would allowing a 3 foot cushion be a defensive game plan against bird.
Ture, but Bird shot only 5% ('85 Finals and '87 Finals) (TS) better than LeBron did in '15. Worse in the '81 Finals, while only scoring 15 points a game.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

LeBron - Passing, Defense, and finishing
Bird - Rebounding and shooting, off-ball, and post play

Bran has better passes after penetration (and even then it isnt a big gap unless pass out to 3pt shooters which Birds era didnt emphasize). Bird has him beat everywhere else and creates better shots for his teammates without having to break down defense with his athleticism/slashing. Bird has better post passes, lob passes, outlet passes, baseline passes, no look passes, direct passes off a rebound, pickandroll passes, passes off broken plays etc.

Bird was also better help defender especially down low

[Cali Syndicate]

LeBron - Passing, Defense, and finishing
Bird - Rebounding and shooting, off-ball, and post play

Lebron wasn't a better passer. Better playmaker, yes.. But not passer.

You forgot to add that Lebron is also a better ball handler.

But almost all intangibles go to bird (heart, toughness, iq, clutch, etc)

[aj1987]

Lebron wasn't a better passer. Better playmaker, yes.. But not passer.

You forgot to add that Lebron is also a better ball handler.
Not really, no. What makes Bird a better passer than LeBron?


But almost all intangibles go to bird (heart, toughness, iq, clutch, etc)
Heart and toughness? Subjective AF. People like to bring up LeBron's '11 Finals and stuff, but rarely talk about Bird's 'chokes'.


Bird has better post passes, lob passes, outlet passes, baseline passes, no look passes, direct passes off a rebound, pickandroll passes, passes off broken plays etc.
:biggums:

LeBron literally does all those as well. Do you even watch the games?


Bird was also better help defender especially down low
OVERALL, LeBron is a significantly better defender than Bird.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Puting aside athleticism...Larry Bird is probably the most skilled player all time...with Karl Malone second. I don't know if people realize this...but Larry Bird and Karl Malone had the same exact vertical...28 inches. Neither player was exactly an athletic stud...but they were tireless workers and made themselves great...this is especially true with Malone as Larry was much more talented at basketball then he was...it's absurd how underrated Malone was...he wasn't even close to being a great athlete, but was possibly the hardest worker the NBA has ever seen and MADE HIMSELF GREAT. All people want to talk about is tim duncan...a CENTER who was pretending to be a PF...Karl malone is like David Robinson...completely dominant when he played, but gets no respect now that he's retired...it's ****ing pathetic.

Karl wasnt more skilled than Dirk. Dirk was pretty athletic in his younger days but not in his best seasons (08-11). Even his peak in 2011 his vertical mustve been very low and his lateral quickness was done. He beat guys purely from skills/fundamentals off footwork and positioning and of course mastery of postgame and GOAT level shooting

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

LeBron literally does all those as well. Do you even watch the games?

:biggums: :biggums:
did i say Lebron doesnt do em? I said Larrys better at those aspects of passing

[aj1987]

:biggums: :biggums:
did i say Lebron doesnt do em? I said Larrys better at those aspects of passing
Again, not really. That just your opinion here.

Bird - 6.3 APG to 3.1 TOV/G
LeBron - 6.9 APG to 3.4 TOV/G

Bird Per 100 possessions - 7.9 APG to 3.9 TOV/G
LeBron per 100 possessions - 9.4 APG to 4.5 TOV/G

Bird Ast% - 24.7%
LeBron Ast% - 34.5%

I do know that stats do not tell the whole story, but I know that you LOVE stats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

This one is just from last season, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRr-3gsUZ2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7SVaoOf1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdOzfHV0nE

Top 10 outlets to Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4F6geZVf-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiTaBtMOWEM

[hateraid]

I'll repeat myself. Tracy McGrady

[Cali Syndicate]

Not really, no. What makes Bird a better passer than LeBron?


Heart and toughness? Subjective AF. People like to bring up LeBron's '11 Finals and stuff, but rarely talk about Bird's 'chokes'.

I didn't say bird was a better passer. It's wash imo as a passer and court vision. Lebrons a better playmaker.

And I wasn't pointing to chokes. All players choke. I'm talking about being a leader, toughness, sportmanship, heart. These are qualities people didn't question about bird. But with Lebron, it's been questionable throughout his career..2011 finals is just one example. but for me game 4 alone speaks heavy volumes. Go listen to his Pregame rally about everyone needing to give 100% and leave it all on the floor and then watch how he came out and played. This was the infamous 8 point game. But like I said this is one example.

[aj1987]

I didn't say bird was a better passer. It's wash imo as a passer and court vision. Lebrons a better playmaker.


Lebron wasn't a better passer. Better playmaker, yes.. But not passer.
:confusedshrug:

Does it not mean that if LeBron is not the better passer, then Bird is?


but for me game 4 alone speaks heavy volumes. Go listen to his Pregame rally about everyone needing to give 100% and leave it all on the floor and then watch how he came out and played. This was the infamous 8 point game. But like I said this is one example.
Larry Bird had back to back 8 point games in the '81 Finals.

[ClipperRevival]

Again, not really. That just your opinion here.

Bird - 6.3 APG to 3.1 TOV/G
LeBron - 6.9 APG to 3.4 TOV/G

Bird Per 100 possessions - 7.9 APG to 3.9 TOV/G
LeBron per 100 possessions - 9.4 APG to 4.5 TOV/G

Bird Ast% - 24.7%
LeBron Ast% - 34.5%

I do know that stats do not tell the whole story, but I know that you LOVE stats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

This one is just from last season, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRr-3gsUZ2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7SVaoOf1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdOzfHV0nE

Top 10 outlets to Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4F6geZVf-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiTaBtMOWEM

Is that 100 possessions for the individual player or 100 possessions in general for that team?

[aj1987]

Is that 100 possessions for the individual player or 100 possessions in general for that team?
Per 100 team possessions.

Going by USG%:

Bird in '85 (28.5%) - 6.6 APG to 3.1 TOV/G
Bird in '88 (30.2%) - 6.1 APG to 2.8 TOV/G

LeBron in '05 (29.7%) - 7.2 APG to 3.2 TOV/G
LeBron in '13 (30.2%) - 7.3 APG to 3.0 TOV/G

Those are the closest USG%'s for those two.

[ClipperRevival]

Per 100 team possessions.

Well, that explains a lot then. LeBron is MUCH more ball dominant than Bird ever was. So his chances of racking up assists were just greater on a per game basis. Bird played a lot of off ball as most offenses ran through the post (McHale, Parish and Bird) while Bron all but dominates the ball on almost every possession.

I don't really care what the numbers say to be honest. Bird was clearly the better passer. Heck, he is one of the best passers EVER, regardless of position. Bird was a bball genius, plain and simple. He had that next level bball iq, feel for the game, awareness, vision, etc that you can't teach.

[aj1987]

Well, that explains a lot then. LeBron is MUCH more ball dominant than Bird ever was. So his chances of racking up assists were just greater on a per game basis. Bird played a lot of off ball as most offenses ran through the post (McHale, Parish and Bird) while Bron all but dominates the ball on almost every possession.

I don't really care what the numbers say to be honest. Bird was clearly the better passer. Heck, he is one of the best passers EVER, regardless of position. Bird was a bball genius, plain and simple. He had that next level bball iq, feel for the game, awareness, vision, etc that you can't teach.
Going by USG%:

Bird in '85 (28.5%) - 6.6 APG to 3.1 TOV/G
Bird in '88 (30.2%) - 6.1 APG to 2.8 TOV/G

LeBron in '05 (29.7%) - 7.2 APG to 3.2 TOV/G
LeBron in '13 (30.2%) - 7.3 APG to 3.0 TOV/G

Those are the closest USG%'s for those two. BTW, those Celtic teams played at pace, which was 10 points higher than the Cavs/Heat.

Take off the nostalgia glasses, dude. Even hardcore Bird stans would give him the slightest of edges.

[ClipperRevival]

Going by USG%:

Bird in '85 (28.5%) - 6.6 APG to 3.1 TOV/G
Bird in '88 (30.2%) - 6.1 APG to 2.8 TOV/G

LeBron in '05 (29.7%) - 7.2 APG to 3.2 TOV/G
LeBron in '13 (30.2%) - 7.3 APG to 3.0 TOV/G

Those are the closest USG%'s for those two.

Take off the nostalgia glasses, dude. Even hardcore Bird stans would give him the slightest of edges.

Come on man. Conveniently picking Bird's two highest usage years and Bron's two lowest usage years really fair? :oldlol:

Bird career usage: 26.5 %
Bron career usage: 31.7 %

And FYI, I don't even like Bird that much. Just calling it like I see it.

[aj1987]

Come on man. Conveniently picking Bird's two highest usage years and Bron's two lowest usage years really fair? :oldlol:

Bird career usage: 26.5 %
Bron career usage: 31.7 %

And FYI, I don't even like Bird that much. Just calling it like I see it.

Those are the closest USG%'s for those two.

Do you not realize that Bird should have the edge, when I'm picking LeBron's lowest and Bird's highest?! Higher usage = higher stats. Lower usage = lower stats. Yet, LeBron does.

'13 was LeBron's MVP season and one of his best seasons in his career. '85 Was Bird's MVP season and dude was still one of the best in the world in '88. Not to mention '05 was LeBron's second season in the league and he was surrounded by garbage.

[Cali Syndicate]

:confusedshrug:

Does it not mean that if LeBron is not the better passer, then Bird is?


Larry Bird had back to back 8 point games in the '81 Finals.

Play making has more to do with ball handling and ability to break down a defense than it does passing ability. I'm talking more in terms of ability to effectively use your off hand, understanding angles and court vision, being able to hit the lead man in stride, etc. Being a better playmaker doesn't make him a better passer. Just like being able to create space off the dribble wouldn't make you a better shooter.

[aj1987]

Play making has more to do with ball handling and ability to break down a defense than it does passing ability. I'm talking more in terms of ability to effectively use your off hand, understanding angles and court vision, being able to hit the lead man in stride, etc. Being a better playmaker doesn't make him a better passer. Just like being able to create space off the dribble wouldn't make you a better shooter.

I didn't say bird was a better passer. It's wash imo as a passer and court vision. Lebrons a better playmaker.


Lebron wasn't a better passer. Better playmaker, yes.. But not passer.
:confusedshrug:

LeBron is considered to be one of the greatest EVER fast break players, partly because of his vision. Watch these videos, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

This one is just from last season, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRr-3gsUZ2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7SVaoOf1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdOzfHV0nE

Top 10 outlets to Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4F6geZVf-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiTaBtMOWEM

[Dray n Klay]

Wait people are still arguing that Bird was a better shooter/off-ball player than LeBron even after the facts I posted? :facepalm :oldlol:



This thread is full of trolls

[Gileraracer]

I know something Lebron's better at...........

....

....

....

loosing finals :applause:

[colts19]

I read these threads and wonder how many of you watched Bird play. I will just point out a few things.

Larry Bird in the 1981 finals had 2 games where he scored only 8 points and his teammate Maxwell won the FMVP. I see that posted all the time. Larry rebounded even with one of the best rebounders of all time in Moses and if you could go back and watch the series you would see that Bird was the real MVP.

Bron is a great passer but it is largely do to the spacing in today's game and all the drive and kick out passes he makes. Bird was a more creative passer and it really isn't close.

What really separates Bird from Bron is Birds mentality. Bird was tough as nails and he never gave up on his team like Bron has several times. Bron could make a average team better, but Bird can make a good team great.

[aj1987]

I read these threads and wonder how many of you watched Bird play. I will just point out a few things.

Larry Bird in the 1981 finals had 2 games where he scored only 8 points and his teammate Maxwell won the FMVP. I see that posted all the time. Larry rebounded even with one of the best rebounders of all time in Moses and if you could go back and watch the series you would see that Bird was the real MVP.

Bron is a great passer but it is largely do to the spacing in today's game and all the drive and kick out passes he makes. Bird was a more creative passer and it really isn't close.

What really separates Bird from Bron is Birds mentality. Bird was tough as nails and he never gave up on his team like Bron has several times. Bron could make a average team better, but Bird can make a good team great.
Makes me wonder if you've ever seen LeBron play. :facepalm :facepalm

[Cali Syndicate]

:confusedshrug:

LeBron is considered to be one of the greatest EVER fast break players, partly because of his vision. Watch these videos, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

This one is just from last season, BTW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRr-3gsUZ2E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7SVaoOf1M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdOzfHV0nE

Top 10 outlets to Wade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4F6geZVf-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiTaBtMOWEM

Right. Lebron has excellent court vision. As did bird. What are you arguing here?

[Da_Realist]

I read these threads and wonder how many of you watched Bird play. I will just point out a few things.

Larry Bird in the 1981 finals had 2 games where he scored only 8 points and his teammate Maxwell won the FMVP. I see that posted all the time. Larry rebounded even with one of the best rebounders of all time in Moses and if you could go back and watch the series you would see that Bird was the real MVP.

Bron is a great passer but it is largely do to the spacing in today's game and all the drive and kick out passes he makes. Bird was a more creative passer and it really isn't close.

What really separates Bird from Bron is Birds mentality. Bird was tough as nails and he never gave up on his team like Bron has several times. Bron could make a average team better, but Bird can make a good team great.

This. Bird was more creative, more reactive and more intuitive.

[bizil]

When it comes to passing, Bird and Bron are the two greatest forwards of all time. From a stationary position or off a single dribble, Bird is arguably the greatest passer of all time. REGARDLESS of position. But Bron's PG type handles and epic slashing ability makes him a better passer in terms of breaking down a defense. Or creating on the fast break consistently.

So in terms of pure passing vision, I give the slight edge to Bird. BUT Lebron can LEGIT play the PG position. Something Bird could NEVER DO. So I think that needs to count for something when looking at Bron's passing ability. But both are epic passers.

[stalkerforlife]

No because the NBA is a brotherhood and skilled players are frowned upon while super athletic players are lauded.

[jstern]

Both amazing players. Top ten talent. In terms of skills I will go with Bird. It's just fun to watch Bird due to his IQ. So I'll give the edge to Bird. I think he would have been able to create more offensively in the finals last year, in the final minutes. No Lebron did not choke, he was just limited.

[feyki]

Lebron is better playmaking cause his ball dominant play style . But passing is different thing . Bird has assists numbers almost as good as Lebron and with far less ball domination . This should make sense .

Also , we already knew Bird is greatest passer after Magic in transition at nba history .

[Euroleague]

You don't think Durant is as comparatively skilled as him? :biggums:


LOL LeBron is far more skilled than Bird


Get those nostalgia glasses off, OP


Prime Tmac

https://media0.giphy.com/media/cBYiHsSdCfOCY/200.gif

[Euroleague]

Puting aside athleticism...Larry Bird is probably the most skilled player all time...with Karl Malone second. I don't know if people realize this...but Larry Bird and Karl Malone had the same exact vertical...28 inches. Neither player was exactly an athletic stud...but they were tireless workers and made themselves great...this is especially true with Malone as Larry was much more talented at basketball then he was...it's absurd how underrated Malone was...he wasn't even close to being a great athlete, but was possibly the hardest worker the NBA has ever seen and MADE HIMSELF GREAT. All people want to talk about is tim duncan...a CENTER who was pretending to be a PF...Karl malone is like David Robinson...completely dominant when he played, but gets no respect now that he's retired...it's ****ing pathetic.

Malone might have been the hardest worker, when you consider working out and building your body, although he was clearly also ridiculously roided up. I doubt he was just in basketball terms though.

Look at guys like Nash and Olajuwon that got better every year well into their 30s even.

Or a guy like Petrovic that would spend 18-20 hours a day working on his game....or a guy like Maravich that lived and breathed basketball non-stop from a very early age.

And so forth. I'm not buying that Malone was the hardest worker just on basketball terms.

[Euroleague]

Bird, even in his porcelain frame of a body with a broken cheekbone managed to make a difference and lead his team to victory

Lebron could barely breath without an airconditioning and had to be lifted to the bench :lol

To be fair to Lebron though, being as doped up as he is, causes those kinds of side effects.

[Euroleague]

When it comes to passing, Bird and Bron are the two greatest forwards of all time. From a stationary position or off a single dribble, Bird is arguably the greatest passer of all time. REGARDLESS of position. But Bron's PG type handles and epic slashing ability makes him a better passer in terms of breaking down a defense. Or creating on the fast break consistently.

So in terms of pure passing vision, I give the slight edge to Bird. BUT Lebron can LEGIT play the PG position. Something Bird could NEVER DO. So I think that needs to count for something when looking at Bron's passing ability. But both are epic passers.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/peXVBGmimeEda/200.gif

[Bankaii]

Bird is so overrated it's ridiculous.

Lebron was the better passer, period. He is more creative, has better court vision, makes more accurate passes, and the biggest thing is that his drive and kick is unstoppable because of the defensive collapse it causes, Larry doesn't even come close in that aspect because he's not as athletic.

KD is a better shooter, it's close and definitely debatable but KD can create his own shot better than Bird.

The only thing Larry is the best at at the SF position is low post game. No other ATG SF really comes close to him in that regard.
But quit acting like he's some god, in today's league he'd be the 3rd best SF, and not even a top 3 player.

[kamil]

Give me LeBron's superior ball handling, finishing, passing, and off-ball game, over Birds Shooting

What about the stiffarm?

[Cali Syndicate]

Bird is so overrated it's ridiculous.

Lebron was the better passer, period. He is more creative, has better court vision, makes more accurate passes, and the biggest thing is that his drive and kick is unstoppable because of the defensive collapse it causes, Larry doesn't even come close in that aspect because he's not as athletic.

KD is a better shooter, it's close and definitely debatable but KD can create his own shot better than Bird.

The only thing Larry is the best at at the SF position is low post game. No other ATG SF really comes close to him in that regard.
But quit acting like he's some god, in today's league he'd be the 3rd best SF, and not even a top 3 player.

Bird would play pf in today's game and he would be the best of in the game.

[Euroleague]

Bird is so overrated it's ridiculous.

Lebron was the better passer, period. He is more creative, has better court vision, makes more accurate passes, and the biggest thing is that his drive and kick is unstoppable because of the defensive collapse it causes, Larry doesn't even come close in that aspect because he's not as athletic.

KD is a better shooter, it's close and definitely debatable but KD can create his own shot better than Bird.

The only thing Larry is the best at at the SF position is low post game. No other ATG SF really comes close to him in that regard.
But quit acting like he's some god, in today's league he'd be the 3rd best SF, and not even a top 3 player.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/quYOWSc9iml5C/200.gif

[90sgoat]

Come on man. Conveniently picking Bird's two highest usage years and Bron's two lowest usage years really fair? :oldlol:

Bird career usage: 26.5 %
Bron career usage: 31.7 %

And FYI, I don't even like Bird that much. Just calling it like I see it.

Usage rate has nothing to do with ball dominance, we've had this discussion again and again but the Lebron stans just lie and ignore it.

Usage rate means finishing a play, not the time spent with the ball. Lebron spends as much time as point guards with the ball, something Bird certainly did not.

The more time you spend with the ball the greater the time to spot a teammate for an assist. Bird was very quick with the ball and didn't need Lebron's extremely schematic approach to offense.

[Bankaii]

Bird would play pf in today's game and he would be the best of in the game.
You're partially right, he'd be about the same as Heat Bron.
Mainly playing SF but in stretches being the PF. It would really depend on his team.

And no, he'd be top 3, but watching him trying to gaurd an athletic forward like Griffin would be a massacre.


https://media4.giphy.com/media/quYOWSc9iml5C/200.gif
You believe the Euroleague is better than the NBA.
You're opinion means about as much to me as the shit my dog just took.

[colts19]

Bird is so overrated it's ridiculous.
And you may not be an idiot, but you sure sound like one.

Lebron was the better passer, period. He is more creative, has better court vision, makes more accurate passes, and the biggest thing is that his drive and kick is unstoppable because of the defensive collapse it causes, Larry doesn't even come close in that aspect because he's not as athletic.
You don't think Bird made the players around him better had something to do with teams focusing their defense on him.

KD is a better shooter, it's close and definitely debatable but KD can create his own shot better than Bird.
The thing is Bird only need a inch to get his shoot off.

The only thing Larry is the best at at the SF position is low post game. No other ATG SF really comes close to him in that regard.
But quit acting like he's some god, in today's league he'd be the 3rd best SF, and not even a top 3 player.


so the guy that most were calling the Greatest player ever in the mid 80's is overrated. Big O, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, and Dr. J. Most basketball people were saying Bird was better than all of them. But you say he is overrated. OK. That's good enough for me.

[zbott]

As always stats only tell part of the story ... Birds bball IQ and court vision were epic, maybe unmatched .... and who can deny the fearlessness and killer instinct ... if he were playing healthy in this era he would be claiming many souls ...

[feyki]

Bird is so overrated it's ridiculous.

Lebron was the better passer, period. He is more creative, has better court vision, makes more accurate passes, and the biggest thing is that his drive and kick is unstoppable because of the defensive collapse it causes, Larry doesn't even come close in that aspect because he's not as athletic.

KD is a better shooter, it's close and definitely debatable but KD can create his own shot better than Bird.

The only thing Larry is the best at at the SF position is low post game. No other ATG SF really comes close to him in that regard.
But quit acting like he's some god, in today's league he'd be the 3rd best SF, and not even a top 3 player.


Everybody has opinion but that's one of the worst i've ever seen .

[Bankaii]

so the guy that most were calling the Greatest player ever in the mid 80's is overrated. Big O, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, and Dr. J. Most basketball people were saying Bird was better than all of them. But you say he is overrated. OK. That's good enough for me.
Every single one of your points was deflection.

Where did I say Bird didn't make his teammates better?
I said Lebron is a better playmaker because his GOAT level ability to collapse a defense (something Bird was not as good at), among other things.

KD can create a shot more easily because of his height and ball handling, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I generally don't care what other players have to say becuase they all change their opinions so easily.
But nonetheless, where did I say Bird was the best player of the 80s, or at least 1b to Magic?

You're post didn't address anything, you just made points that are irrelevant to what I said.

There are posters in here saying "it's not even close". If anyone actually believes that he is overrated in that sense, dumbass.



Everybody has opinion but that's one of the worst i've ever seen .
You're legit one of the dumbest posters on this site.
I honestly couldn't care less about your low IQ opinion.

[LakersForlife]

hard to say. lebron didnt come close, tho.
lebron = traveling superstar

[aj1987]

Right. Lebron has excellent court vision. As did bird. What are you arguing here?

I didn't say bird was a better passer. It's wash imo as a passer and court vision. Lebrons a better playmaker.


Lebron wasn't a better passer. Better playmaker, yes.. But not passer.

Make up your mind, bro. Who's better?

[Round Mound]

When it comes to passing, Bird and Bron are the two greatest forwards of all time. From a stationary position or off a single dribble, Bird is arguably the greatest passer of all time. REGARDLESS of position. But Bron's PG type handles and epic slashing ability makes him a better passer in terms of breaking down a defense. Or creating on the fast break consistently.

So in terms of pure passing vision, I give the slight edge to Bird. BUT Lebron can LEGIT play the PG position. Something Bird could NEVER DO. So I think that needs to count for something when looking at Bron's passing ability. But both are epic passers.

:applause: