Proof that MJ's 1989 supporting cast < Lebron's 2007, 2009, 2015

[3ball]

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1989 vs. 2007:

Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



1989 vs. 2009:

Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

Btw, the Bulls were only a 6-seed in 1989 - their upsets of higher seeds in the 1st and 2nd Round shows the team was playing to maximum capacity and used a superior brand of basketball to overcome their favored opponents.. Otoh, Lebron's team was a heavily-favored 1-seed that was upset by a lower seed, showing the team was not playing to maximum capacity or a superior brand of basketball.



1989 vs. 2015:

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.

So the 1989 roster was a LOTTERY roster that Jordan carried to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in ECF.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
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[navy]

All you posted was proof Lebron > Jordan :oldlol:

[livingby3's]

but seriously, do you wake up everyday, have your breakfast, take a shit etc all while thinking what Jordan thread should be made today?

[warriorfan]

.
1989 vs. 2007:

Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



1989 vs. 2009:

Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 wins can't due ONLY to inferior competition - it's due to weaker supporting cast as well.

Btw, the Bulls were only a 6-seed in 1989 - their upsets of higher seeds in the 1st and 2nd Round shows the team was playing to maximum capacity and used a superior brand of basketball to overcome their favored opponents.. Otoh, Lebron's team was a heavily-favored 1-seed that was upset by a lower seed, showing the team was not playing to maximum capacity or a superior brand of basketball.



1989 vs. 2015:

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.

So the 1989 roster was a LOTTERY roster that Jordan carried to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in ECF.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team

:applause:

[LilEddyCurry]

You need to go outside and stop wasting your time. You spend too much time and effort in proving something that everyone agrees on. Yes, Michael Jordan is greater than LeBron and every other basketball player. Just trying to help you dude..

[Gileraracer]

I don't need any proof. Jordan didn't hand pick his teammates nor did he collude with 2 other top 5 players in the league.

[TYCRO]

Oh look, more copy and paste.

[3ball]

Lebron had no chance in 2015 Finals


Lebron let a 7 ppg role player (Iggy) be > Curry.. Iggy averaged 17 ppg, so that's a 10 point swing.

But even WITH Lebron's defense allowing Iggy to get 17 ppg (instead of 7 ppg), and even WITH Lebron shooting an abysmal 39%, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - clearly, if he holds Iggy to 7 ppg and shoots 50%, the Cavs win easily.





MJ couldn't have won in 2015 Finals with that injured Cavs team



MJ won the championship in 1998 with teammates that produced less in Finals:


Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% > Pippen's 15 ppg on 41%

JR Smith's 12 ppg on 32% < Kukoc's 15 ppg on 50%

Tristan's 10/13 > Rodman's 4/8 (Rodman was so horrible he wasn't even a starter)

Delly/Shumpert's 7-8 ppg on 27% = Kerr/Harper's 4-5 ppg on 35%


MJ won with less help because his defense didn't let a 7 ppg role player be > Karl Malone, nor did he shoot 39% against repeated single coverage.

It's amazing - even WITH Lebron's defense allowing Iggy to get 17 ppg (instead of 7 ppg), and even WITH Lebron shooting an abysmal 39%, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - obviously, the Cavs win easily if he holds Iggy to 7 ppg and shoots 50%.
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Lebron had no chance in 2014 Finals


Horseshit - Lebron's defense was very good the first 2 games against Kawhi (9 ppg on 43%), and not surprisingly, the Heat were tied 1-1... They were competitive with the Spurs, just like OKC and Dallas were, who held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45%.

But then Lebron gave up in Game 3, because he's weak with no perseverance - Kawhi proceeded to run roughshod the last 3 games for 24 ppg on 69% - this is the biggest reason the series changed - that's a 15 point swing.

Better defense on Kawhi would've kept the games closer, and the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense on Kawhi with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors)..

Obviously, if Lebron plays good defense on Kawhi AND doubles his shot attempts to 33 per game like the 2015 Finals, the Heat would've won.






Not much Lebron could've done in 2007 Finals



Many guys played better against the same Spurs team:


Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%



The reason for Lebron's worse efficiency was JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY:


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2
Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3



Everyone shot well on jumpers against the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - the so the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive - Lebron just can't shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is among the worst in NBA outside the paint... Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.. When a player can't shoot, there are tons of guys that can play better than him.






Lebron had no chance in 2007 Finals


Not true - despite Lebron's 22 ppg on 35%, all 4 games were single-digit affairs, including 1-possession nail-biters in Games 3 and 4.. (edit: Game 1 was 11 pt game)

The Cavs had a great defense, but just needed a consistent volume scorer to win.






Lebron's teammates play poorly when he isn't on the floor



Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1) that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Ultimately, Lebron's reduction of teammates into play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection: MJ's off-ball style got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), so the team plays to capacity and never loses as the favorite, while Lebron's ball-dominance turns teammates into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).
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[plowking]

How would MJ have done with Delly taking the second most shots on his team in the finals? :oldlol:

[3ball]

How would MJ have done with Delly taking the second most shots



Well, let's see - he won the championship in 1998 with less:


Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% > Pippen's 15 ppg on 41%

JR Smith's 12 ppg on 32% < Kukoc's 15 ppg on 50%

Tristan's 10/13 > Rodman's 4/8 (Rodman was so horrible he wasn't even a starter)

Delly/Shumpert's 7-8 ppg on 27% = Kerr/Harper's 4-5 ppg on 35%





How would MJ have done


MJ won with less in 1998, so we know he would've won with Lebron's cast in 2015.

And specifically HOW/WHY would MJ win??.... Because his defense would never let a 7 ppg role player be > Karl Malone, or shoot 39% against repeated single coverage.

It's amazing - even WITH Lebron's defense allowing Iggy to get 17 ppg (instead of 7 ppg), and even WITH Lebron shooting an abysmal 39%, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - if he holds Iggy to 7 ppg and shoots 50%, the Cavs win easily.

[Straight_Ballin]

IDGAF who MJ has on his team in the finals. If he made it to the finals, he wins. The man didn't know how to lose in the finals. He may have done just enough to make it seem like he almost lost, but what he really was doing is not exerting more energy than what he had to in order to win.

Never saw anything like it.