What's the best way for a #1 option to get his points?

[3ball]

Ball-dominant player - scores on their own off-the-dribble, so teammates have little opportunity to assist


Examples: Lebron, Harden, Lillard, CP3


Off-ball player - scores off-ball a lot, where teammates are assisting their field goal


Examples: Jordan, Bird, Curry

[navy]

Neither

[SpaceJam]

By putting the ball in the hoop

[Im Still Ballin]

Jordan is 6-7 260

Lebron is 6-6 215

[stephanieg]

Score in the flow of the offense. If the role players suck, take over as a stop gap.

One of the trickier situations is when the role players are playing well but it's a close game. If the star takes over and loses they'll be called selfish and criticized for not being a team player. If they don't take over and lose then online experts on human psychology who watched too many nature documentaries will call them passive beta chokers.

[Papaya Petee]

As long as they're scoring the ball efficiently and at a high rate?

I dont give a damn how they do it.

[Im Still Ballin]

Lebron Ball.

[JohnMax]

bruceblitz talked about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q8B_L2P72o&t=0m17s

[Dr Hawk]

Definitely the second group. Imagine Lebron in the 86' Celtics instead of Bird.

Those Celtics are considered so good partially because of Bird's offball ability. He destroyed the opponents with only 23.3% of usage. Lebron would never be able to do that. Also, that low usage allowed more touches for their teammates and allowed a GOAT caliber ball movement, which would be impossible under Lebron ball.

[feyki]

Definitely the second group. Imagine Lebron in the 86' Celtics instead of Bird.

Those Celtics are considered so good partially because of Bird's offball ability. He destroyed the opponents with only 23.3% of usage. Lebron would never be able to do that. Also, that low usage allowed more touches for their teammates and allowed a GOAT caliber ball movement, which would be impossible under Lebron ball.


Exactly .

[Smoke117]

Meltdown.

[WayOfWade]

An assisted layup = 2 points
Unassisted layup = 2 points

[34-24 Footwork]

Cherry picking

[Marchesk]

An assisted layup = 2 points
Unassisted layup = 2 points

empty stats layup = 2 point
bird fed layup = 2 points
aesthetically pleasing layup = 2 points
stiff armed crab dribble layup = 2 points

[Kblaze8855]

Funny thing is...all 7 of those players have been called ballhogs at times.

Jordan, Bird, and Lebron especially come to mind. Random teammates talked to the media about Bird trying to do too much and not passing. This was his response to the most well known one:




"The one thing about this team is that I'm the leader of this team," Bird said. "The guys that are not playing well are usually the ones that cry. The one thing that bothered me is they don't have enough guts to stand up to it and put their name in there about who said it. To me, that's a yellow streak down their back. ... So I just look at it and say they've always been quitters, they've always had no heart and it's the same way now."

Legend says it was Jim Paxon but he wasnt the first. Mchale and even Bird loving Bill Walton called Bird out about being a ball hog. The idea that everyone thought Bird was super unselfish is a straight up fabrication used on people who dont remember those days. He was always known as a great passing....asshole. He took some of the most head scratching shots of his era and teammates complained.

Jordan was called out for being a ballhog all the time. Even when they were winning. Early it was more serious....real hate on how he played compared to guys like Magic and Bird...later it was more joking. He used to demand the ball vs double teams like it didnt matter....because it kinda didnt. Guys like Barkley, Bird, and Isiah used to all make little snide remarks about how much Jordan dribbled and shot. Barkley more than once got the stat sheet during a post game and said "Jordan took ____ shots!". He did it in the finals and he did it at least once when he was in Philly. People have been on here saying Steph isnt a pointguard because all he does is pound the ball and shoot.

But people make you what they need you to be to fit the argument they wish to make.

[AirBonner]

Definitely the second group. Imagine Lebron in the 86' Celtics instead of Bird.

Those Celtics are considered so good partially because of Bird's offball ability. He destroyed the opponents with only 23.3% of usage. Lebron would never be able to do that. Also, that low usage allowed more touches for their teammates and allowed a GOAT caliber ball movement, which would be impossible under Lebron ball.
only? that is still significant percent :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

But people make you what they need you to be to fit the argument they wish to make.

Not on ISH doe.


Love the Bird quote. Bet he would have thrown down with a teammate if someone stepped to him. Bird was tough.

Maybe Jordan tried to do too much early on, but the comparisons with Bird and Magic are not entirely fair, because they got drafted to better teams. I think Jordan might have passed a little more if head prime Kareem on his team.

[bizil]

Typically, MY PERFECT #1 option is a great scorer as well as a very good to great passer. Their scoring skillsets are SO VERSATILE that they can adapt to whatever they need to. And OF COURSE they have epic IQ's and are alpha as hell. If they have a team short on scoring ability, they will be more aggressive. If they have a team loaded with scoring talent, they can dominate in the flow.

So for me, I think guys like Bird, MJ, Big O,West, Curry, and Durant are the perfect examples for what I like. And Kobe is right there too, but he tended to catch the hero ball thing too much. Bron of course is a BEAST!! But his scoring skillset and clutch gene is a bit behind the others.

This isn't to say guys like Wade, Nique, King, Melo, Gervin, etc. weren't WORLD CLASS alpha dogs. Because they were! But for me, I just dig the way Bird, MJ, Big O,West, Curry, and Durant employ their scoring dominance better.

[StrongLurk]

Funny thing is...all 7 of those players have been called ballhogs at times.

Jordan, Bird, and Lebron especially come to mind. Random teammates talked to the media about Bird trying to do too much and not passing. This was his response to the most well known one:





Legend says it was Jim Paxon but he wasnt the first. Mchale and even Bird loving Bill Walton called Bird out about being a ball hog. The idea that everyone thought Bird was super unselfish is a straight up fabrication used on people who dont remember those days. He was always known as a great passing....asshole. He took some of the most head scratching shots of his era and teammates complained.

Jordan was called out for being a ballhog all the time. Even when they were winning. Early it was more serious....real hate on how he played compared to guys like Magic and Bird...later it was more joking. He used to demand the ball vs double teams like it didnt matter....because it kinda didnt. Guys like Barkley, Bird, and Isiah used to all make little snide remarks about how much Jordan dribbled and shot. Barkley more than once got the stat sheet during a post game and said "Jordan took ____ shots!". He did it in the finals and he did it at least once when he was in Philly. People have been on here saying Steph isnt a pointguard because all he does is pound the ball and shoot.

But people make you what they need you to be to fit the argument they wish to make."

It's a 3ball thread, no room for logic. Nice of you to birdfeed him that L doe.

[3ball]

Jordan is 6-7 260

Lebron is 6-6 215


Except Lebron plays further from the basket than Jordan..... and less aggressively and physically, so who cares.

Take this L






compare athleticism and shooting of Jordan and Lebron


Hops off 1 leg:


Jordan 10... Lebron 10



Hops off 2 legs:


Jordan 10... Lebron 6




Quickness:


Jordan 10... Lebron 7



Midrange Shooting ability


Jordan 10.... Lebron 4



3-point shooting efficiency


Jordan 5.... Lebron 5


Basically, Jordan was an equal or superior athlete, AND he was a great shooter... Whereas Lebron is predictable and clunky, and can't shoot worth a lick.

[Klay 3D]

One who doesn't shoot below 75% from the FT line for his career.

[3ball]

He used to demand the ball vs double teams like it didnt matter....because it kinda didnt. Guys like Barkley, Bird, and Isiah used to all make little snide remarks about how much Jordan dribbled and shot. Barkley more than once got the stat sheet during a post game and said "Jordan took ____ shots!". He did it in the finals and he did it at least once when he was in Philly. People have been on here saying Steph isnt a pointguard because all he does is pound the ball and shoot.


What does shooting a lot or shooting against double-teams have to do with which scoring method is more optimal (ball-dominance or off-ball)?

You simply aren't sophisticated enough to tackle the OP's question, so you went off on some irrelevant diatribe about ball-hogging instead.

The answer to the OP question deals with how that scoring method AFFECTS TEAMMATES - and we know that Lebron's ball-dominance reduces his teammates APG (playmaking) while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing) - he turns teammates into play-finishers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1).

Otoh, off-ball play allows teammates to realize whatever assist capacity they have, which results in a superior brand of basketball that can compete at the highest level.. So it's more optimal for the #1 option to be an off-ball player - it results in a better team.

[jlip]

By putting the ball in the hoop

This

[warriorfan]

Good post from op. There's more and more evidence that piles up every year to show that heavy ball domination is not a recipe for success. It does lead to statistical inflation however.

[Sakkreth]

So anyone knows why op calls himself 3ball when MJ couldn't shoot 3s ?

[bdreason]

MJ wasn't an off-ball scorer, he was just amazingly quick and decisive on the catch. That's weakness for a lot of today's NBA top scorers. Some of that has to do with how defenses have changed though.

[Indian guy]

Definitely the second group. Imagine Lebron in the 86' Celtics instead of Bird.

Those Celtics are considered so good partially because of Bird's offball ability. He destroyed the opponents with only 23.3% of usage. Lebron would never be able to do that. Also, that low usage allowed more touches for their teammates and allowed a GOAT caliber ball movement, which would be impossible under Lebron ball.

This is all fine and dandy until you realize LeBron has played on multiple teams in his career with a superior offense to the '86 Celtics.

The myth that LeBron-ball, whatever that is, limits a team from maximizing its offensive potential never seems to be end. Even though year after year his teams are right at the top of the league in offensive efficiency. The view of his style of play alone, supposedly where he just pounds the ball at the top and everybody stands around, is outdated in itself and should have been abolished after 2008. And particularly once he became a Heat.

A simple look at numbers would also tell you that LeBron, once surrounded by solid to good talent in his career(09-current), also consistently led better offenses than what Bird was leading his teams to in the 80's. Particularly in the playoffs.

[Baller1986]

Attacking the basket and low post plays.

[3ball]

MJ wasn't an off-ball scorer


You probably never even heard of "off-ball" until I brought it up, so you don't know what it is - accordingly, let's look at it statistically:

Jordan was a highly assisted player (52.0% assisted rate in 1997), while Lebron is a ball-dominant player (~30% assisted rate every year, just like point guards).





MJ was just amazingly quick and decisive on the catch. That's weakness for a lot of today's NBA top scorers. Some of that has to do with how defenses have changed though



These are off-ball plays (they aren't necessarily assisted, but these types of plays are assisted more often than ball-dominant, off-the-driblble plays) - you won't see Lebron making off-ball plays like this:


https://media.giphy.com/media/2Aq4mhbE0Iko/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/GJl2C1vXfNIcw/giphy.gif

[knicksman]

Both. You must combine the 2. You must be capable of creating your own shot but unselfish enough to let go of stats for easy opportunities playing off-ball. And that is the reason why im not a fan of bran coz he has neither. He cant even score despite being given 5 ft to shoot how much more creating his own shot. And worse, he refuses to play off ball. Thats why he shits the bed when it matters and the main reason why hes 2/6

[3ball]

Lebron's teams are usually near the top of the league in offensive efficiency (ORtg).


It doesn't matter that some of Lebron's teams were top 5 in ORtg - they're still underperforming and playing below their full capacity - his teammates' stats decline alongside him, while the stats of Jordan's teammates didn't.

Also, top 5 in the league doesn't compare to #1 ALL-TIME like Jordan's teams.

But again - Lebron's main problem is that his teammates play undercapacity and underperform against the best playoff teams, as shown below...






The myth that LeBron-ball, whatever that is



Lebron-ball means that he achieves his stats by reducing his teammates' PPG and APG, which leads to team underperformance - specifically, he turns reduces teammates APG (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.
.

[knicksman]

This is all fine and dandy until you realize LeBron has played on multiple teams in his career with a superior offense to the '86 Celtics.

The myth that LeBron-ball, whatever that is, limits a team from maximizing its offensive potential never seems to be end. Even though year after year his teams are right at the top of the league in offensive efficiency. The view of his style of play alone, supposedly where he just pounds the ball at the top and everybody stands around, is outdated in itself and should have been abolished after 2008. And particularly once he became a Heat.

A simple look at numbers would also tell you that LeBron, once surrounded by solid to good talent in his career(09-current), also consistently led better offenses than what Bird was leading his teams to in the 80's. Particularly in the playoffs.

Jordan and kobe led better offenses despite having lesser teams

[Young X]

How the hell is CP3 a #1 option?

[KobesFinger]

Thread cliffs: Jordan was a bird-fed play finisher

lel

[NZStreetBaller]

The ball dominant player in the one who has the ball the most right??

[bdreason]

These are off-ball plays (they aren't necessarily assisted, but these types of plays are assisted more often than ball-dominant, off-the-driblble plays) - you won't see Lebron making off-ball plays like this:


https://media.giphy.com/media/2Aq4mhbE0Iko/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/GJl2C1vXfNIcw/giphy.gif



Catching the ball in the post, then making a spin move, two dribbles, and a double-pump to finish over the help defender is not an off-ball score. If that's the case then every post-scorer in the history of the game should be considered an off-ball scorer. In fact, every scorer in the history of the sport would be considered an off-ball scorer except the point guards. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of your "ball-dominant" examples essentially play point for their team.

Go watch 80's MJ and tell me he wasn't a ball dominant scorer. MJ played the way he did in the 90's because Phil Jackson asked him to play that way. He got the ball in all different spots on the court, and he was a maestro once he got it... but pretending he was an off-ball scorer because he didn't play point guard is laughable at best.

[bdreason]

The ball dominant player in the one who has the ball the most right??


MJ with the 3rd highest single season Usage Rate in the history of the sport...

"off-ball scorer"

[knicksman]

Catching the ball in the post, then making a spin move, two dribbles, and a double-pump to finish over the help defender is not an off-ball score. If that's the case then every post-scorer in the history of the game should be considered an off-ball scorer. In fact, every scorer in the history of the sport would be considered an off-ball scorer except the point guards. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of your "ball-dominant" examples essentially play point for their team.

Go watch 80's MJ and tell me he wasn't a ball dominant scorer. MJ played the way he did in the 90's because Phil Jackson asked him to play that way. He got the ball in all different spots on the court, and he was a maestro once he got it... but pretending he was an off-ball scorer because he didn't play point guard is laughable at best.

And thats when he started winning. Teammates werent happy with jordan in the 80s thus 1-9. The same thing is happening with the cavs right now thus 2/6

[eliteballer]

There is no "best way". It depends on the system and the talent.

[LAZERUSS]

Interesting too that every team LBJ has joined DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED...and every team he left FELL OFF THE CLIFF.

Hell, in his two years with this Cavs team...

With Lebron... 105-38.

Without... 4-14.

And he single-handedly carried them to two wins and two close losses in last year's Finals against an all-time great team.

[LAZERUSS]

Funny thing is...all 7 of those players have been called ballhogs at times.

Jordan, Bird, and Lebron especially come to mind. Random teammates talked to the media about Bird trying to do too much and not passing. This was his response to the most well known one:





Legend says it was Jim Paxon but he wasnt the first. Mchale and even Bird loving Bill Walton called Bird out about being a ball hog. The idea that everyone thought Bird was super unselfish is a straight up fabrication used on people who dont remember those days. He was always known as a great passing....asshole. He took some of the most head scratching shots of his era and teammates complained.

Jordan was called out for being a ballhog all the time. Even when they were winning. Early it was more serious....real hate on how he played compared to guys like Magic and Bird...later it was more joking. He used to demand the ball vs double teams like it didnt matter....because it kinda didnt. Guys like Barkley, Bird, and Isiah used to all make little snide remarks about how much Jordan dribbled and shot. Barkley more than once got the stat sheet during a post game and said "Jordan took ____ shots!". He did it in the finals and he did it at least once when he was in Philly. People have been on here saying Steph isnt a pointguard because all he does is pound the ball and shoot.

But people make you what they need you to be to fit the argument they wish to make.

Interesting read on Bird.

I recall his 60 point game, when even the opposing players were cheering him on.

[inclinerator]

lebron witha good passer= goat, the only pretty good passer he played with was dwyane wade and look at the numbers he put up

[3ball]

Catching the ball in the post, then making a spin move, two dribbles, and a double-pump to finish over the help defender is not an off-ball score.


Your basketball eye missed that both plays were off-the-catch (not live-dribble) and used only ONE dribble, not two - these things qualify both plays for an assist.

And you aren't understanding the differentiation between "ball-dominance" and "off-ball" from the thread title.

Ball dominance is ANY score that uses a live, existing dribble (point guard style) or catches and holds for an extended period.. Off-ball is everything else, such as the one-dribble, catch-and-go moves shown in the gifs, which actually represent an entire skill set.

I'm not saying MJ never used live dribbles, but his bread and butter was quick, catch-and-go moves, JJ Redick-style spot-ups from midrange, and post-moves, while Lebron's bread-and-butter is the more time-consuming live dribble, such as screen rolls.





If that's the case then every post-scorer in the history of the game should be considered an off-ball scorer. In fact, every scorer in the history of the sport would be considered an off-ball scorer except the point guards.


Exactly - point guards are the only ball-dominant position on the floor - they use live, existing dribbles as their standard.. By comparison, all other positions are off-ball, compared to point guards' unique ball-dominant (live-dribble) style.

This is why the assisted rate of the point guard is ALWAYS much lower than all other positions - point guards use live dribbles for most of their scores, so they aren't being assisted by anyone






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/UqzX0m.gif


Go watch 80's MJ and tell me he wasn't a ball dominant scorer.



You don't realize how bad that sounds to people who've watched a lot of Jordan - you're simply UNAWARE that over half of Jordan's field goals in the 80's were "off-ball" scores, such as midrange spot-ups or quick catch-and-go's - he was NOT a point guard-style, ball-dominant player like Lebron or Harden.

Also, you should know that most of Jordan's "ball-dominance" came when he was operating out of the triple-threat (pre-dribble, stationary position, shown above in gif), where he would catch the ball and hold it for a second or two.. Operating out of the triple-threat position is FAR less time-consuming and disrupting of the flow than Lebron's point guard-style live-dribbles.

Again, I'm not saying Jordan never used live dribbles, but his bread-and-butter was quick catch-and-go's, spot-ups, or the less time-consuming triple-threat moves shown above.. Otoh, Lebron's bread-and-butter is the more time-consuming, ball-stopping live dribble.






I don't think it's a coincidence that all of your "ball-dominant" examples essentially play point for their team.


Exactly - point guards are the only ball-dominant position on the floor (that uses live dribbles as their standard), which is why their assisted rates are lower than all other positions, and their time of possession is higher than all other positions.

And that's the problem with Lebron - he employs a point guard style from the FORWARD position... This adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

Btw, Lebron's high time of possession and low assisted rates (point guard traits) are statistical facts - Lebron and Harden were the only NON-point guards in the top 50 (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for time of possession, and both have point-guard-level assisted rates (in the low 30's).





I don't think it's a coincidence that all of your "ball-dominant" examples essentially play point for their team.


Lebron's presence as a 2nd point guard concentrates the playmaking among the point guards and reduces everyone else's chances to playmake.. Specifically, teammates' APG is reduced (playmaking), while their assisted rate increases (play-finishing), as shown by nba.com stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1).

Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Furthermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).





I don't think it's a coincidence that all of your "ball-dominant" examples essentially play point for their team.


Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Now once again - WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ's off-ball game allowed teammates to play to full capacity, which allowed the TEAM to play to full capacity and never underachieve/lose as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.
.

[AirBonner]

obviously the best way for a #1 option to get his points is for that #1 option to turn into Jordan. /Agenda thread.

[jstern]

I was thinking about this topic yesterday. A Lebron type player can get you 60+ wins having the ball so much in his hands. The negative to that the team is going to turn into crap if he's not playing. It also makes it harder for him to adjust to the games of other stars. I guess you take the good with the bead.

Some players might have complained about Bird and Jordan taking to many shots, but don't confuse that with what the IP is talking about. He's talking about playing off the ball vs ball dominant players.

It's apples and oranges. Lebron can take lesser teams really far, but kind of hurts the game of really good players. They have to make the adjustments. Bird and Jordan styles are so high IQ and masterful.

[3ball]

I was thinking about this topic yesterday. A Lebron type player can get you 60+ wins having the ball so much in his hands. The negative to that the team is going to turn into crap if he's not playing.


Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


Lebron's teammates shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers (leading to team underperformance)?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).





Lebron can take lesser teams really far


And Jordan takes equally bad or worse teams just as far - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.

So that 1989 roster was a LOTTERY roster that Jordan carried to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team





Lebron can take lesser teams really far


Look at 2009 - Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games... Compare that to the 1989 Bulls, who only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 wins can't due ONLY to inferior competition - it's due to weaker supporting cast as well.

Btw, the Bulls were only a 6-seed in 1989 - their upsets of higher seeds in the 1st and 2nd Round shows the team was playing to maximum capacity and used a superior brand of basketball to overcome their favored opponents.. Otoh, Lebron's team was a heavily-favored 1-seed that was upset by a lower seed, showing the team was not playing to maximum capacity or a sufficiently effective brand of basketball.





Lebron can take lesser teams really far


1989 vs. 2007:

Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)
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[Gileraracer]

Stiff arm bulldoze travel to the rim