How good were the 1989 Cavaliers?

[AngelEyes]

The talent on this team was awesome. The had four legit all star talents in Daugherty, Nance, Price and Harper. All under 30 years old, Nance the oldest at 29. They had good role players in Craig Ehlo, Mike Sanders and Hot Rod Williams. This has to be one of the more loaded teams of the 80's. In Price they had one of the best pure shooters in the league as well as a great point guard, in Daugherty they had one of the elite centers in the league and probably the best passing center. Harper was an uber athletic shooting guard with a body similar to Jordan. And with Nance they had an extremely athletic, versatile forward. This team could have been special.

[L.Kizzle]

They should not have traded Kevin Johnson away.

[ClipperRevival]

Another victim of MJ with "the shot." 47 win Bulls upsetting the 57 win Cavs. One of MJ's most impressive playoff series. That Cavs team was pretty good.

39.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 8.2 APG, 3.0 SPG, 52% FG

[sportjames23]

They should not have traded Kevin Johnson away.


Nor Ron Harper. I maintain that if they didn't trade Harp away for the rights to Danny Ferry, the Bulls might not have won as early as they did. They were right there with Detroit at the top of the Central Division--hell, the Eastern Conference, for that matter. They, along with Detroit, swept the Bulls in the regular season 6-0. It took a Herculean effort from MJ to lead that young Bulls team past them in the playoffs.

[Poetry]

This team could have been special.

Magic once called them the team of the 90s, but between MJ, the injuries, and the trades, it never happened.

[DoctorP]

Another victim of MJ with "the shot." 47 win Bulls upsetting the 57 win Cavs. One of MJ's most impressive playoff series. That Cavs team was pretty good.

39.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 8.2 APG, 3.0 SPG, 52% FG

Neither LeBron nor Kobe have anything like that on their resume, am I right? (didnt check)

[jlip]

Brad Daugherty spoke about that team just the other day. He said that they were somewhat like the present day Raptors, a great regular season team but just couldn't seem to put it together in the playoffs.

[Rake2204]

The 1989 Cavaliers were really, really, good for a lot of that season. They actually started off 43-12 before floundering down the stretch.

I always knew the names they had and I've obviously always known the Michael Jordan shot, but I didn't really know how good that team was until I read Cameron Stouth's The Franchise, covering the Pistons' championship run that year.

A lot of the book isn't about the Pistons beating the Bulls or vanquishing the Celtics or whatever else, it's about Detroit trying in vain to catch up to the Wayne Embry-created powerhouse that appeared to be brewing in Cleveland. The Adrian Dantley-Mark Aguirre trade, if I remember correctly, was at least partially influenced by the quandary of trying to figure out how Detroit could keep pace with the Cavs.

Forgot why they dipped late in the year, but they were still considered legitimate threats in the postseason. I think I used to just assume that Jordan took down the same ol' do-nothing Cavs. But that was a big time takedown that year and caught some folks off guard.

[Straight_Ballin]

The Price/Daugherty years were a very exciting time as a young bball fan in Cleveland. I saw about 10 games at the Richfield Coliseum in 89, including the one on May 7th when MJ hit "the shot". People in Cleveland at the time were actually bragging about how Ehlo was such a good defender and could keep MJ under 30 ppg....:lol

[jlip]

Neither LeBron nor Kobe have anything like that on their resume, am I right? (didnt check)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-cavaliers.html#CLE::none

In a loss though


http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-finals-suns-vs-lakers.html#LAL::none

Kobe in a win

[Round Mound]

A Very Good Team. They Would Win The NBA Finals If They Would Be Playing Today.

Two Monster Games By Chuck vs The Cavs Of 1990:

Charles Barkley Greatest Games: 38 Points, 21 Rebounds vs Cavaliers (1990 ECR1 Game 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrUWn3jk3Mo

Charles Barkley Greatest Games: 32/15/7 vs Cavaliers (1990)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJpcUw0Af0

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[sportjames23]

The 1989 Cavaliers were really, really, good for a lot of that season. They actually started off 43-12 before floundering down the stretch.

I always knew the names they had and I've obviously always known the Michael Jordan shot, but I didn't really know how good that team was until I read Cameron Stouth's The Franchise, covering the Pistons' championship run that year.

A lot of the book isn't about the Pistons beating the Bulls or vanquishing the Celtics or whatever else, it's about Detroit trying in vain to catch up to the Wayne Embry-created powerhouse that appeared to be brewing in Cleveland. The Adrian Dantley-Mark Aguirre trade, if I remember correctly, was at least partially influenced by the quandary of trying to figure out how Detroit could keep pace with the Cavs.

Forgot why they dipped late in the year, but they were still considered legitimate threats in the postseason. I think I used to just assume that Jordan took down the same ol' do-nothing Cavs. But that was a big time takedown that year and caught some folks off guard.


Indeed. It doesn't get talked about much, but that Cavs team had the best record in the ENTIRE league for most of the year before Detroit caught up with them. IIRC, they wound up tied with the Lakers for the second-best record after the Pistons passed them.

As a Bulls fan, I'll admit that we were lucky that injuries caught up with them by the time of the playoffs. Like I said earlier, they were 6-0 against the Bulls in the regular season, including the last game in Chicago where they rested Harper, Price, Daugherty and Nance.

Going into that series, I can say that I had no confidence we could beat them. Aside from the championship level Pistons, this series, along with the 1993 ECF vs the Knicks were the only series where I had doubts the Bulls would win. Hell, I think a big reason we won Game 1 was because Price was out with injuries.

Here Game 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoUL-19QD24

(Trivia: this was the first time the Bulls wore black shoes in the playoffs)

Seriously, though, I really believe that trading Harper (Cavs GM Wayne Embry said that Harp was hanging around unscrupulous characters was the reason they traded him) was one of the biggest factors in Chicago taking over the East. Once we got past Cleveland, Detroit was the only team standing in our way, and I felt we would eventually pass them (which we did, in two years).

[Lebron23]

Brad Daugherty spoke about that team just the other day. He said that they were somewhat like the present day Raptors, a great regular season team but just couldn't seem to put it together in the playoffs.


I Agree.

[Da_Realist]

The 1989 Cavaliers were really, really, good for a lot of that season. They actually started off 43-12 before floundering down the stretch.

I always knew the names they had and I've obviously always known the Michael Jordan shot, but I didn't really know how good that team was until I read Cameron Stouth's The Franchise, covering the Pistons' championship run that year.

A lot of the book isn't about the Pistons beating the Bulls or vanquishing the Celtics or whatever else, it's about Detroit trying in vain to catch up to the Wayne Embry-created powerhouse that appeared to be brewing in Cleveland. The Adrian Dantley-Mark Aguirre trade, if I remember correctly, was at least partially influenced by the quandary of trying to figure out how Detroit could keep pace with the Cavs.

Forgot why they dipped late in the year, but they were still considered legitimate threats in the postseason. I think I used to just assume that Jordan took down the same ol' do-nothing Cavs. But that was a big time takedown that year and caught some folks off guard.

Another surprising bit from that book was how the Pistons had real problems wirh the Knicks! They actually were hoping to avoid them and face Chicago instead. Kind of amazing looking back over the years considering how everything played out. Even the best team can have matchup problems.

[Lebron23]

2016 Toronto Raptors according to Brad Daugherty.

[Legends66NBA7]

Brad Daugherty spoke about that team just the other day. He said that they were somewhat like the present day Raptors, a great regular season team but just couldn't seem to put it together in the playoffs.


2016 Toronto Raptors according to Brad Daugherty.

The 2 teams are nothing alike.

Cleveland is far more top heavy in talent, and played far better defense. Toronto was spearheaded all season by 2 guards who struggle to make field goals in the playoffs and are actually lacking top level talent overall.

I mean, do people know this team was making their RS run with Luis Scola at PF all year (he was net negative on a majority of their lineups) and playing musical chairs at SF when their starter was down for 50+ games ? Even their starting C in Jonas was missing 20+ games, I think it has more to do with less talent around the East today than anything.

[Da_Realist]

Nobody believed Chicago could beat Cleveland that year. It offended MJ so that's why he guaranteed a victory. All the reporters laughed at him. But Chicago actually defeated Cleveland in five the year before so they had confidence in themselves.

[Legends66NBA7]

Jesus, the Raptors haven't even figured out Paul George yet. Imagine them trying to guard Michael ****ing Jordan ?

:facepalm



I would like to see what Price and Ehlo would be today. I would take it Price would be in Top 3-5 for 3's if he had the green light to shoot it in this era. Their bigs were athletic enough to be game changers today also. Much bigger threat than Toronto.

[JohnnySic]

They remind me of the '86 Rockets. There for a second and then gone.

[ClipperRevival]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-cavaliers.html#CLE::none

In a loss though


http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2010-nba-western-conference-finals-suns-vs-lakers.html#LAL::none

Kobe in a win

I don't see how Kobe's 33.7 PPG is comparable to MJ's 39.8 PPG on much better efficiency. MJ's CAREER playoff average is 33.4. But like I always say, MJ is held to a different standard. A career type series for anyone else is an average series for MJ.

[ClipperRevival]

Check out this short video of "the shot" and MJ's interview right after it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g2z1dLzTcM

[ClipperRevival]

Check out MJ's playoff stats against the Cavs the year before in 1987-88 (5 games):

45.2 PPG, 5.4 APG, 4.8 APG, 2.8 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 56% FG


Or his playoff series against the 76ers in 1989-90 (5 games):

43.0 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 SPG, 1.2 BPG, 55% FG


Or his playoff series against the Celtics in 1985-86 (3 games):

43.7 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 50% FG


Or his finals against the Suns in 1992-93 (6 games):

41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 51% FG

[Da_Realist]

I don't think Daughtery meant that 1989 Cleveland = 2016 Toronto. He's saying that both teams play better during the reg season than in the playoffs.

Cleveland just had the misfortune of going against a young Bulls team that matched up with them well with a good coaching staff and one of the greatest playoff performers of all time in 4 of their 6 best years.

[jlip]

The 2 teams are nothing alike.

Cleveland is far more top heavy in talent, and played far better defense. Toronto was spearheaded all season by 2 guards who struggle to make field goals in the playoffs and are actually lacking top level talent overall.

I mean, do people know this team was making their RS run with Luis Scola at PF all year (he was net negative on a majority of their lineups) and playing musical chairs at SF when their starter was down for 50+ games ? Even their starting C in Jonas was missing 20+ games, I think it has more to do with less talent around the East today than anything.

I found Daugherty's interview (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=15228147). It was from Mike and Mike this past Monday. Start listening at the 26:32 mark. It was not his claim that his Cavs were constructed or played like the Raptors, but they had basically the same weak mentality and lack of "it" factor. He praises the shots and big games MJ had against them that "broke their backs", especially in 1989, but he then says,

"...I've watched this Toronto team, and it's the same thing that happened on the teams I played on, the Cavs, back in the mid 80's and 90's. We were a really good regular season basketball team. But when it cam playoff time, we didn't have another gear. We played as hard as we could on night one as we did when we went to the playoffs. We couldn't take it up necessarily another level. So what you saw... and I see that in this Toronto team. The play great night in and night out throughout the regular season, but they don't have that extra gear..."



I don't think Daughtery meant that 1989 Cleveland = 2016 Toronto. He's saying that both teams play better during the reg season than in the playoffs.

Cleveland just had the misfortune of going against a young Bulls team that matched up with them well with a good coaching staff and one of the greatest playoff performers of all time in 4 of their 6 best years.

This

[swagga]

Check out MJ's playoff stats against the Cavs the year before in 1987-88 (5 games):

45.2 PPG, 5.4 APG, 4.8 APG, 2.8 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 56% FG


Or his playoff series against the 76ers in 1989-90 (5 games):

43.0 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 SPG, 1.2 BPG, 55% FG


Or his playoff series against the Celtics in 1985-86 (3 games):

43.7 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 50% FG


Or his finals against the Suns in 1992-93 (6 games):

41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 51% FG


goat gonna goat.
MJ would've been unguardable with today's lax perimeter rules.

[Legends66NBA7]

I found Daugherty's interview (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=15228147). It was from Mike and Mike this past Monday. Start listening at the 26:32 mark. It was not his claim that his Cavs were constructed or played like the Raptors, but they had basically the same weak mentality and lack of "it" factor. He praises the shots and big games MJ had against them that "broke their backs", especially in 1989, but he then says,

"...I've watched this Toronto team, and it's the same thing that happened on the teams I played on, the Cavs, back in the mid 80's and 90's. We were a really good regular season basketball team. But when it cam playoff time, we didn't have another gear. We played as hard as we could on night one as we did when we went to the playoffs. We couldn't take it up necessarily another level. So what you saw... and I see that in this Toronto team. The play great night in and night out throughout the regular season, but they don't have that extra gear..."




This

I guess I can agree with all that, but I think you can still make an argument for better teams. Chris Webber Kings comes to mind, I think that's a better example.

[ClipperRevival]

goat gonna goat.
MJ would've been unguardable with today's lax perimeter rules.

It really would've been embarrassing for the league when you consider the era MJ played in, what was allowed as a defender and the physicality allowed compared to today's rules.

[riseagainst]

I don't see how Kobe's 33.7 PPG is comparable to MJ's 39.8 PPG on much better efficiency. MJ's CAREER playoff average is 33.4. But like I always say, MJ is held to a different standard. A career type series for anyone else is an average series for MJ.


"Much better efficiency."

Pretty sure Kobe easily takes the cake here with a TS% of 64%
While MJ has a TS% of 60%

Let's look at eFG%:
Kobe - 59%
MJ - 53%


Much better efficiency my ass, he wasn't even close to it.

[AlphaWolf24]

........Craig Ehlo trying to guard prime MJ???

https://i.imgur.com/7r1BZDU.gif



Craig wouldn't even be in today's league

[3ball]

........Craig Ehlo trying to guard prime MJ???

https://i.imgur.com/7r1BZDU.gif



Craig wouldn't even be in today's league
Ron Harper was the starter - he was an athletic 20 ppg shooting guard and rising superstar.

He was Paul George caliber, except he didn't recover from his injuries like George did

Btw, there are numerous current NBA players that Ehlo was much better than

[AlphaWolf24]

Ron Harper was the starter - he was an athletic 20 ppg shooting guard and rising superstar.

He was Paul George caliber, except he didn't recover from his injuries like George did

Btw, there are numerous current NBA players that Ehlo was much better than


.Ehlo was Mj's primary defender


go back to color coordinating excel sheets.

leave the real talk to people who watched the games.


J/K....just want you to make an excel sheet with all the times Harper and Ehlo guarded MJ

[3ball]

.
Bulls were massive underdogs against the Cavs - every reporter picked the Cavs, and Jordan told them to their face that he would prove them wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCcvu9ObQRI&t=17m37s


Btw, we have statistical proof that Lebron's 2009 cast was much better than Jordan's cast in 1989: Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games, while Jordan's cast only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

[ShawkFactory]

.
Bulls were massive underdogs against the Cavs - every reporter picked the Cavs, and Jordan told them to their face that he would prove them wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCcvu9ObQRI&t=17m37s


Btw, we have statistical proof that Lebron's 2009 cast was much better than Jordan's cast in 1989: Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games, while Jordan's cast only added enough help on top of Jordan's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that Lebron's supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.
:lol

[jbryan1984]

I read something years ago that Gordon Gund traded Ron Harper because he began dating his granddaughter and he did not want his granddaughter dating a black man.

[3ball]

Ehlo was Mj's primary defender

leave the real talk to people who watched the games.


Ron Harper played 44 minutes in Game 5 and was the starting SG, compared to Ehlo's 27 minutes.

Harper averaged 38 minutes at SG for the series, compared to 24 for Ehlo.

The game footage shows Harper on Jordan for most of the game and series, so you're just lying

[sportjames23]

I don't think Daughtery meant that 1989 Cleveland = 2016 Toronto. He's saying that both teams play better during the reg season than in the playoffs.

Cleveland just had the misfortune of going against a young Bulls team that matched up with them well with a good coaching staff and one of the greatest playoff performers of all time in 4 of their 6 best years.

Yeah, I don't agree with Daugherty saying his Cavs didn't come through in the playoffs like today's Raptors. Like you said, they just had the bad luck of playing MJ Bulls in 1988, 1989, 1992 and 1993. The years they didn't play the Bulls, they lost to a very good Charles Barkely led Sixers team (1990) or missed the playoffs due to injuries (1991).

[sportjames23]

I read something years ago that Gordon Gund traded Ron Harper because he began dating his granddaughter and he did not want his granddaughter dating a black man.


I heard that, too. Like I said earlier, the "official" story is that Harper was hanging around some shady characters.

[Da_Realist]

I read something years ago that Gordon Gund traded Ron Harper because he began dating his granddaughter and he did not want his granddaughter dating a black man.

Isn't Gund blind?

[Sarcastic]

If they played in this era, they'd win probably 72 games at least.

[AlphaWolf24]

Ron Harper played 44 minutes in Game 5 and was the starting SG, compared to Ehlo's 27 minutes.

Harper averaged 38 minutes at SG for the series, compared to 24 for Ehlo.

The game footage shows Harper on Jordan for most of the game and series, so you're just lying


show me the Graph and excel sheet!!

with color coded paragraphs for easier dissection!

[bizil]

With health and long run together on their side, NO DOUBT they take at least a ring from the Bulls. Ron Harper was on track to be a top 3 SG in the world only behind MJ and Drexler. Harp was the total package AND freak athlete like those two. But injuries stopped him from reaching his potential, even though he was still All Star caliber after the injuries.

And Nance, Price, and Brad were top 5-6 caliber players at their respective positions. Ironically, I think the Cavs and later the Shaq-Penny Magic were the two teams designed to give the Bulls the most trouble in the East. But their cores weren't together long enough to steal a ring or two from the Bulls.

[Da_Realist]

With health and long run together on their side, NO DOUBT they take at least a ring from the Bulls. Ron Harper was on track to be a top 3 SG in the world only behind MJ and Drexler. Harp was the total package AND freak athlete like those two. But injuries stopped him from reaching his potential, even though he was still All Star caliber after the injuries.

And Nance, Price, and Brad were top 5-6 caliber players at their respective positions. Ironically, I think the Cavs and later the Shaq-Penny Magic were the two teams designed to give the Bulls the most trouble in the East. But their cores weren't together long enough to steal a ring or two from the Bulls.

What year? The championship edition Bulls were much better than the late 80's version that beat the Cavs best teams.

[bizil]

What year? The championship edition Bulls were much better than the late 80's version that beat the Cavs best teams.

I was just sayin in general that at a 5-7 year SUSTAINED healthy run with a Price-Harper-Brad core could have caused MAJOR DAMAGE at some point in the East. They never had that opportunity. U gotta keep in mind that Ron Harper was never REALLY the same after his first serious injury. Which happened in his 2nd year in the league.

In his rookie year, Harp put up 22.9 points, 4.8 dimes, 2.5 steals, and 4.8 boards. I would rate that season EASILY as one of the top 10 most underrated rookie seasons of all time. And the THING IS, that was his best season in the NBA production wise. The sky was the limit for Harp, but the injury bug caught him quick as hell. If the Cavs avoid the injury bug, I think they had the ability to win a ring in the 90's.