The latest BS for why Curry's offense > Jordan's: he spaces the floor [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

04-23-2016, 01:21 PM

So not only does Curry play in era with the current rules that it has, but he also has some of the best three point shooting teammates that help create even more space for him?

Also, Jordan simply DID MORE - he was involved in MORE POSSESSIONS for his team (usage), while producing more points-PER-possession (ORtg):

Career

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg

1991 vs. 2016:

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% usage.. 125 ORtg

Jordan did more the 50% of the time he was on offense, and was the best defender ever at his position the other 50% on defense.

Dr Hawk

04-23-2016, 01:24 PM

Also, Jordan simply DID MORE - he was involved in MORE POSSESSIONS for his team (usage), while producing more points-PER-possession (ORtg):

Career

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg

1991 vs. 2016:

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% usage.. 125 ORtg

Jordan did more the 50% of the time he was on offense, and was the best defender ever at his position the other 50% on defense.

Jordan couldn't take games off. Not even when he was poisoned in 1997 and he had to score 38 points and play 44 minutes delivering on both sides of the floor (38 points 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals and 1 block)

AirFederer

04-23-2016, 01:26 PM

you`re right but it`s not like Curry is a threat to the GOAT, so chill.

Let`s enjoy a historically good team :cheers:

3ball

04-23-2016, 01:37 PM

you`re right but it`s not like Curry is a threat to the GOAT, so chill.

Let`s enjoy a historically good team

Enjoy away.. And be aware that Curry's scoring and efficiency in 2016 fell short of Jordan's 1991:

1991 vs. 2016

JORDAN RS:. 31.5 ppg.. 125 ORtg.. 31.7 Player Efficiency Rating
CURRYN RS:. 30.1 ppg.. 125 ORtg.. 31.5 Player Efficiency Rating

And he's nowhere NEAR Jordan from a career standpoint:

THRU 7 SEASONS

JORDAN RS:. 32.3 ppg.. 121 ORtg.. 29.8 Player Efficiency Rating
CURRYN RS:. 22.4 ppg.. 117 ORtg.. 23.2 Player Efficiency Rating

JORDAN PO:. 33.4 ppg.. 119 ORtg.. 29.6 Player Efficiency Rating
CURRYN PO:. 25.9 ppg.. 115 ORtg.. 22.5 Player Efficiency Rating

CAREER

JORDAN RS:. 30.1 ppg.. 118 ORtg.. 27.9 Player Efficiency Rating
CURRYN RS:. 22.4 ppg.. 117 ORtg.. 23.2 Player Efficiency Rating

JORDAN PO:. 33.4 ppg.. 118 ORtg.. 28.6 Player Efficiency Rating
CURRYN PO:. 25.9 ppg.. 115 ORtg.. 22.5 Player Efficiency Rating

New fans and pundits of the game brag about Curry's points-per-shot, but points-per-possession (ORtg) is more important and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team than Curry (while also carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18) on both sides of the ball).

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SamuraiSWISH

04-23-2016, 02:04 PM

So not only does Curry play in era with the current rules that it has, but he also has some of the best three point shooting teammates that help create even more space for him?
I thought this was obvious as well.

hold this L

04-23-2016, 02:37 PM

So not only does Curry play in era with the current rules that it has, but he also has some of the best three point shooting teammates that help create even more space for him?
None of his teammates were close to having anywhere near the 3P% they have now when they were in other teams. Mo Buckets scored more 3s this year than his entire career for example. Barnes is a pitiful to garbage level 3PT shooter statistically when he has someone on him, yet has a good % due to the space he gets. The only outlier is Klay whose one of the best shooters of all time.

3ball

04-23-2016, 02:46 PM

So not only does Curry play in era with the current rules that it has, but he also has some of the best three point shooting teammates that help create even MORE space for him?

While it's true that Curry's goat 3-point shooting teammates afford him the best spacing of all time, THE ENTIRE 2010's ERA is characterized by the inception of modern spacing - prior eras didn't have spacing at all by comparison, considering teams attempted 5 threes per game in say, 1991, or 2 per game in 1985, compared to 24 per game today.. The difference in spacing between the eras is night and day.

3ball

04-23-2016, 03:04 PM

None of Curry's teammates were close to having anywhere near the 3P% they have now when they were in other teams.

This is a lie - every player had equal or better 3-point shooting seasons on other teams: Iggy's best 3-point seasons were in Philly, Barbosa's best were in Phoenix, Ian Clark shot the exact same in Utah, Brandon Rush's best were in Indiana.

Of course, Draymond and Harrison Barnes have played with Curry their entire careers, so we don't have stats of them playing without Curry.

That's everyone other than Speights, who is finally making 0.3 threes on 0.9 attempts per game, after 2 seasons with Curry of achieving his career average of 0.1 makes on 0.3 attempts.

Barnes is a pitiful to garbage level 3PT shooter statistically when he has someone on him, yet has a good % due to the space he gets.

The notion that teammates shoot 3-pointers better alongside Curry was proven false above.. Otoh, one thing that actually WOULD be a factor is the Warrior's superior offensive strategy, which yields better 3-point looks than any other team.

Curry's teammates attempt 20 threes per game at 40% - I'm too lazy to look it up, but that's either the best in history, or very close.. It might be the best BY FAR.

Btw, good shots for teammates are generated much easier and more effectively with a force like Jordan slanting the entire defense in his direction, rather than Curry getting his lone defender to hug him at the 3-point line.

Quickening

04-23-2016, 03:35 PM

Curry averaged over 300 ppg for the year whilst have an efg of 63 percent! Jordans best is 55 percent. Currys superior efficiency and assists to turnover ratio, whilst getting more assists just blows Jordan away.

Curry is certainly the better offensive player for their respective peak years. :bowdown:

3ball

04-23-2016, 04:08 PM

Currys superior efficiency and assists to turnover ratio blows Jordan away.

Assist-to-turnover ratio:

JORDAN 1991: 2.2
CURRYN 2016: 2.0

As you can see, Jordan had better assist-to-turnover ratio in 1991.

For their careers, Jordan and Curry's assist-to-turnover ratio is nearly identical, but Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg (very heavy load) to Curry's 22.4 (light load).

Also, Jordan was involved in more possessions (usage), while achieving higher points-per-possession efficiency (ortg).. So he was involved in more possessions, at higher per-possession efficiency - he simply DID MORE.

Curry averaged over 300 ppg for the year whilst have an efg of 63 percent! Jordans best is 55 percent.

The shooting efficiency you brag about affects points-per-SHOT, which isn't as important as points-per-POSSESSION (ortg).

Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team than Curry, while also carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18) on both sides of the ball.

Curry is certainly the better offensive player for their respective peak years.

Jordan's 1991 regular season was better and his playoffs was on another level:

Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991 RS: 42.7 pts.. 8.1 reb..4 7.5 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 3.7 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 60.4 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 WS/48
CURRY 4 2016 RS: 42.5 pts.. 7.7 reb..4 9.4 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 3.0 stl.. 0.3 blk.. 66.9 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.5 PER.. 0.318 WS/48
JORDAN 1991 PO: 41.8 pts.. 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.8 blk.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 WS/48

Jordan had higher Player Efficiency Rating and points-per-possession (ORtg), even though Curry's efficiency was boosted by carrying a smaller load on both sides of the ball: he doesn't play defense and accounts for a smaller proportion of his team's points + assists.

Curry is certainly the better offensive player for their respective peak years.

Jordan simply DID MORE - he was involved in MORE POSSESSIONS for his team (usage), while producing more points-PER-possession (ORtg):

1991 vs. 2016:

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% usage.. 125 ORtg

Career

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg

Jordan did more the 50% of the time he was on offense, and was the best defender ever at his position the other 50% on defense.
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PejaTheSerbSnip

04-23-2016, 04:19 PM

Otoh, Jordan had 130 games of 40+ points and 1 or zero turnovers thru 7 seasons (1993).

Bullshit. He had 44 such games in his entire career and 22 in his first 7 seasons.

Currys OBPM this year was 12.4...higher than the next best in basketball history by over 2.5. He also shattered the net points record (which is a way of aggregating true shooting% and tying it into usage) by a lot, with +601 net points, 100 points higher than MJs or LeBrons best seasons (mind you this only takes into account scoring, but there you go).

And no, for what it's worth, Jordan did not space the floor better than Curry lol. Nobody in the history of the NBA has. It's why, even without Curry and Thompson, the Warriors are close to 38%+ despite their best and most frequent 3pt shooters besides the two being Green, Iguodala and Barnes, none of whom are natural shooters. It's why Curry was one of the league leaders in both assists and hockey assists, because their shot allocation is ridiculously efficient when he's on the floor and getting doubled, and why his team is the best offensive juggernaut in NBA history when he's on the floor and merely 'good' when he's off it.

Bonus: here is the Warriors record the past few years with and without Curry:

12-13: 45-33 with, 2-2 without
13-14: 50-28 with, 1-3 without
14-15: 67-13, 0-2
15-16: 72-8, 2-2

234-82, 4-9

Not wholly relevant to the thread but I thought I'd include that for the fucbois that doubt Currys impact. Anyways, cut the bullshit. Jordan was and almost certainly always will be better than Curry, and I'd still take his peak over Stephs, but not on the offensive side of the ball. Currys best offensive season is demonstrably superior. And all your ****ing lies and spam won't change that.

hold this L

04-23-2016, 04:43 PM

Bullshit. He had 44 such games in his entire career and 22 in his first 7 seasons.

Currys OBPM this year was 12.4...higher than the next best in basketball history by over 2.5. He also shattered the net points record (which is a way of aggregating true shooting% and tying it into usage) by a lot, with +601 net points, 100 points higher than MJs or LeBrons best seasons (mind you this only takes into account scoring, but there you go).

And no, for what it's worth, Jordan did not space the floor better than Curry lol. Nobody in the history of the NBA has. It's why, even without Curry and Thompson, the Warriors are close to 38%+ despite their best and most frequent 3pt shooters besides the two being Green, Iguodala and Barnes, none of whom are natural shooters. It's why Curry was one of the league leaders in both assists and hockey assists, because their shot allocation is ridiculously efficient when he's on the floor and getting doubled, and why his team is the best offensive juggernaut in NBA history when he's on the floor and merely 'good' when he's off it.

Bonus: here is the Warriors record the past few years with and without Curry:

12-13: 45-33 with, 2-2 without
13-14: 50-28 with, 1-3 without
14-15: 67-13, 0-2
15-16: 72-8, 2-2

234-82, 4-9

Not wholly relevant to the thread but I thought I'd include that for the fucbois that doubt Currys impact. Anyways, cut the bullshit. Jordan was and almost certainly always will be better than Curry, and I'd still take his peak over Stephs, but not on the offensive side of the ball. Currys best offensive season is demonstrably superior. And all your ****ing lies and spam won't change that.
You realize he admitted he hasn't watched basketball for 5 years right? I don't know why you're arguing with 2ball, it's just a waste of time. :pimp:

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-23-2016, 04:46 PM

You realize he admitted he hasn't watched basketball for 5 years right? I don't know why you're arguing with 2ball, it's just a waste of time. :pimp:

Own personal amusement more than anything :roll:

jstern

04-23-2016, 05:32 PM

tpols

04-23-2016, 06:00 PM

lol .. jordan sucks defense towards the paint, curry sucks them all out.

that's the difference.

3ball

04-23-2016, 06:02 PM

Jordan had 44 games with 1 or zero turnovers in his entire career and 22 in his first 7 seasons.

Your counted wrong - Jordan had THIRTY games of 40 points and 1 or zero turnovers thru 7 seasons.

Whereas Curry only has ONE game of 40 points and 1 or zero turnovers thru 7 seasons.. He needs at least 2 turnovers to get 40 points

New fans and pundits of the game brag about Curry's points-per-shot, but points-per-possession is more important and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team than Curry (while also carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18) on both sides of the ball)..

Currys OBPM this year was 12.4

Who cares - that's a boxscore stat, just like win shares.

Jordan had higher win shares and offensive win shares.

That means Jordan contributed more to his team's wins than Curry did, and his offense contributed more to his team's wins than Curry's offense.

Jordan also had higher Player Efficiency Rating... Anyone can play the stat game - more of them favor Jordan than Curry.

He also shattered the net points record (which is a way of aggregating true shooting% and tying it into usage) by a lot, with +601 net points, 100 points higher than MJs or LeBrons best seasons (mind you this only takes into account scoring, but there you go).

True shooting affects points-per-SHOT, but points-per-POSSESSION (ortg) is more important and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team than Curry (while also carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18) on both sides of the ball)..

And no, Jordan did not space the floor better than Curry

It's dumb to think that a SINGLE DEFENDER hugging Curry on the perimeter (which Jordan's defender did as well), is more effective at getting good shots for teammates than Jordan's rim attack shifting the ENTIRE DEFENSE on a perpetual basis and drawing double-teams.

Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan).

even without Curry and Thompson, the Warriors are close to 38%+ despite their best and most frequent 3pt shooters besides the two being Green, Iguodala and Barnes, none of whom are natural shooters.

All of Curry's teammates had equal or better 3-point shooting seasons on other teams: Iggy's best 3-point seasons were in Philly, Barbosa's best were in Phoenix, Ian Clark shot the exact same in Utah, Brandon Rush's best were in Indiana.

Of course, Draymond and Harrison Barnes have played with Curry their entire careers, so we don't have stats of them playing without Curry.

That's everyone - so the notion that Curry's presence improves his teammates 3-point shooting is false.

It's dumb to think that a SINGLE DEFENDER hugging Curry on the perimeter (which Jordan's defender did as well), is more effective at getting good shots for teammates than Jordan's threat of rim attack shifting the ENTIRE DEFENSE on a perpetual basis and drawing double-teams.

CONTINUED................

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3ball

04-23-2016, 06:03 PM

.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST.............

that's why his team is the best offensive juggernaut in NBA history when he's on the floor and merely 'good' when he's off it.

The 1996 Bulls had higher ORtg and SRS than the 2016 Warriors.

Also, ALL teams suffer when their star player leaves the floor - this doesn't happen for Curry more than it does for Jordan or Lebron.

Bonus: here is the Warriors record the past few years with and without Curry:

234-82, 4-9

That's no different than most star players, so it isn't a differentiating factor.. Also, Curry has never led a lottery team to a deep playoff run and 6 games with the champs - but Jordan did.

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So heading into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a LOTTERY team and headed nowhere, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 6-peat dynasty..

That's the GOAT impact on a bad team.. Of course, Jordan had the GOAT impact on decent teams too - his Bulls fell from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round without Jordan, and then back to 3-peat dynasty when he returned.

Interestingly, the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

Steph's offensive peak is better than Jordan's was

We can prove Jordan's offense was better - he simply DID MORE - he was involved in MORE POSSESSIONS for his team (usage), while producing more points-PER-possession (ORtg):

1991 vs. 2016:

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% usage.. 125 ORtg

Career

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg

Jordan did more the 50% of the time he was on offense, and was the best defender ever at his position the other 50% on defense.

Currys best offensive season is demonstrably superior.

You only method of "demonstrating" is to brag about true shooting, when that only affects points-per-shot.. Points-per POSSESSION is more important, and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to provide higher points-per-possession to his team, while carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18).

To summarize, Jordan's 1991 was better in every single category except true shooting.

And his higher points-per-possession is more important than true shooting because it includes turnovers and measures PER POSSESSION efficiency.. Of course, Jordan had higher PPG, PER, and win shares too, while his lower assists are canceled out by lower turnovers.. Again, the only category Curry has is true shooting (but lower PER POSSESSION efficiency).
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CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 06:08 PM

The 2016 Wolves would be a playoff contender in 1991.

Curry is dominating in a similar fashion against greater competition.

It's not hard to comprehend.

Well, it is when you are autistic and have never watched a live basketball game.

3ball

04-23-2016, 06:23 PM

Curry is dominating in a similar fashion against greater competition.

It's not hard to comprehend.

You realize that Jordan was involved in MORE possessions (usage), at higher points-PER-possession (ortg), right?

So he simply DID MORE - he was involved in more possessions at better per-possession efficiency, on both ends of the floor... But keep ignoring the facts.

You guys brag about true shooting because it's the only category where Curry leads - but true shooting only affects points-per-SHOT and doesn't include turnovers.. Points-per POSSESSION (ortg) is more important, and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to provide higher points-per-possession to his team, while carrying a larger load.

And no, Jordan did not space the floor better than Curry

It's dumb to think that a SINGLE DEFENDER hugging Curry on the perimeter (which Jordan's defender did as well), is more effective at getting good shots for teammates than Jordan's rim attack shifting the ENTIRE DEFENSE on a perpetual basis and drawing double-teams.

Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan).
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Jameerthefear

04-23-2016, 06:25 PM

Lebron > Curry > Jordan

Next.

3ball

04-23-2016, 06:29 PM

The question is, would that have been the case if Curry played under the conditions Jordan did?
Who cares about Curry's superior shooting efficiency - Jordan had superior PER POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), due to lower turnovers.

True shooting affects points-per-SHOT, which isn't as important as points-per-POSSESSION.

Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team, while also carrying a larger load on both sides of the ball: he accounted for a higher proportion of his team's points and assists, while playing better defense.. :confusedshrug:

Eye Test

04-23-2016, 06:31 PM

The beauty about LeBeast is he doesnt need much spacing. He can bulldoze from anywhere on the court with his quick first step + unmatched strengh.

3ball

04-23-2016, 06:45 PM

.
...NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)

.......................Midrange Efficiency .

Lebron.. 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.4%.. 185/508
Lebron.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%.. 96/259

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101

Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 36.9%.. 164/445
Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/):. 42.4%.. 129/304

D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):... 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/):... 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/):....... 35.9%.. 113/315

Jordan's 1997 season ranks #1 on this list by a full 5 percentage points, and his volume is 3 times more than anyone else's.. His 1998 ranks 3rd on the list, despite playing through a severe finger injury where he couldn't straighten his finger.

Otoh, Lebron's midrange efficiency is below 40% for 10 of his 13 seasons, while his 3-point percentage is below 35% for 8 of 13 seasons.. The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had well-documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gave him a similarly massive advantage over Lebron, Westbrook and company..
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CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 06:52 PM

You realize that Jordan was involved in MORE possessions (usage), at higher points-PER-possession (ortg), right?

So he simply DID MORE - he was involved in more possessions at better per-possession efficiency, on both ends of the floor... But keep ignoring the facts.

You guys brag about true shooting because it's the only category where Curry leads - but true shooting only affects points-per-SHOT and doesn't include turnovers.. Points-per POSSESSION (ortg) is more important, and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to provide higher points-per-possession to his team, while carrying a larger load.

It's dumb to think that a SINGLE DEFENDER hugging Curry on the perimeter (which Jordan's defender did as well), is more effective at getting good shots for teammates than Jordan's rim attack shifting the ENTIRE DEFENSE on a perpetual basis and drawing double-teams.

Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan).
.

Curry demands double teams, it is clear that you DON'T WATCH NBA BASKETBALL.

You are the most persistent troll of all time, I applaud your efforts.

3ball

04-23-2016, 07:03 PM

Curry demands double teams, it is clear that you DON'T WATCH NBA BASKETBALL.

Curry doesn't shift the ENTIRE DEFENSE and cause help defenders to cheat off their man the way a dangerous rim attacker does.

Most of the time, it's only his man hugging him on the perimeter.. Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan).

Basically, Jordan/Lebron ALONE can create easier looks for teammates because their threat of rim attack shifts the entire defense.. Otoh, Curry needs needs his teammates to ALSO be shooting 3-pointers to create great spacing and shots for everyone.
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CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 07:13 PM

Curry doesn't shift the ENTIRE DEFENSE and cause help defenders to cheat off their man the way a dangerous rim attacker does.

Most of the time, it's only his man hugging him on the perimeter.. Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan).

Basically, Jordan/Lebron ALONE can create easier looks for teammates because their threat of rim attack shifts the entire defense.. Otoh, Curry needs needs his teammates to ALSO be shooting 3-pointers to create great spacing and shots for everyone.
.

Yes he does.

Curry is also an elite rim attacker.

jstern

04-23-2016, 07:14 PM

3ball is schooling these people. But I think they're going to reject it anyway.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 07:24 PM

3ball is schooling these people. But I think they're going to reject it anyway.

Schooling?

You agree with his false claims that Curry doesn't demand doubles and doesn't shift the entire defense?

You are equally stupid if you are buying into that BS.

3ball

04-23-2016, 07:26 PM

Yes he does.

Curry is also an elite rim attacker.

:yaohappy: .. :kobe:.. Curry has less than HALF the shot attempts at the rim and within 5 feet are of Lebron.

If we grade Jordan and Lebron's rim attack grade as a 10, then Curry's is a 2, or thereabouts.

That's the obvious reality and consensus.
.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 07:29 PM

:yaohappy: :kobe:... Curry has less than HALF the attempts at the rim that Lebron does.

If we grade Jordan and Lebron's rim attack grade as a 10, then Curry's is a 2, or thereabouts.

That's the obvious reality and consensus.

Curry shot 69% from 0-3 feet this year.

That is DEADLY!

Obviously he has less than half, he made 403 threes!

3ball>2ball, I figured you would realize this by now seeing how you dedicated your entire forum persona to it!

:coleman:

3ball

04-23-2016, 07:33 PM

Schooling?

You agree that Curry doesn't demand doubles and doesn't shift the entire defense?

Curry has less than HALF the shot attempts at the rim of Lebron.

He doesn't attack the rim nearly as much, and obviously isn't nearly as devastating.

Therefore, he can't shift an entire defense the way GOAT rim attackers Jordan and Lebron could.

You are equally stupid if you are buying into that BS.

Most of the time, it's only Curry's man hugging him on the perimeter.. Intuitively, one good shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 1980's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing, because of Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the 5 Warrior players spreading the floor and shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER that provides goat spacing.

Accordingly, teams obtain spacing by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense, including forcing double-teams (Jordan, Lebron).

Basically, Jordan/Lebron ALONE can create easier looks for teammates because their threat of rim attack shifts the entire defense.. Otoh, Curry needs needs his teammates to ALSO be shooting 3-pointers to create great spacing and shots for everyone.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 07:35 PM

Curry made one hundred more threes than LeBron even attempted this year.

Who's the greatest player and leading scorer in the league>?

73-9

Game over!

jstern

04-23-2016, 07:51 PM

Schooling?

You agree with his false claims that Curry doesn't demand doubles and doesn't shift the entire defense?

You are equally stupid if you are buying into that BS.

He's schooling you, but perhaps you only reading things in black and white. Perhaps you think that 3ball is saying that Curry never ever gets double team, and never ever shift the defense.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 08:39 PM

He's schooling you, but perhaps you only reading things in black and white. Perhaps you think that 3ball is saying that Curry never ever gets double team, and never ever shift the defense.

you ARE a PROVEN IDIOT for agreeing with his BS!

Are you from a different country? Seems like it based on your grammar.

Why do these foreign dudes get so salty over my opinions, I'm like the Donald Trump of basketball discussion right now, and honestly it feels great.

Curry's presence alone is enough to cause defense lapses, 73-9, are you serious?

73-9

:coleman:

Curry had a better regular season than Jordan EVER did, deal with it!

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-23-2016, 08:40 PM

:bowdown:
Your counted wrong - Jordan had THIRTY games of 40 points and 1 or zero turnovers thru 7 seasons.

.

You counted wrong, scumbag. 22 in his first 7 seasons. 26 if you meant 7 full seasons. Not 30. And not 130.

AirBonner

04-23-2016, 08:42 PM

Jordan is what Curry would be if he DID MORE.

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-23-2016, 08:57 PM

.
CONTINUED

The 1996 Bulls had higher ORtg and SRS than the 2016 Warriors.

Also, ALL teams suffer when their star player leaves the floor - this doesn't happen for Curry more than it does for Jordan or
That's no different than most star players, so it isn't a differentiating factor.. Also, Curry has never led a lottery team to a deep playoff run and 6 games with the champs - but Jordan did.

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So heading into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a LOTTERY team and headed nowhere, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 6-peat dynasty..

Interestingly, the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

We can prove Jordan's offense was better - he simply DID MORE - he was involved in MORE POSSESSIONS for his team (usage), while producing more points-PER-possession (ORtg):

1991 vs. 2016:

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% usage.. 125 ORtg

Career

JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg

Jordan did more the 50% of the time he was on offense, and was the best defender ever at his position the other 50% on defense.

.

What the hell is wrong with you?

I don't give a shit that Curry hasn't led a lottery team to success. I'm not saying Curry is better than Jordan. I'm saying his best offensive season is better than Jordan's best. I agree that Jordan is more impactful on the whole, and I've actually posted similar things about his effect on those late 80s Bulls teams in a tough conference (albeit less insufferably than you have). For example, he carried those Bulls teams to multiple high 40-low/mid 50 win seasons and deep playoff runs before Pippen was even an all-star, yet this is conveniently ignored. So, I'm not part of the "1-9" brigade.

Couple other things:

SRS does not isolate offense. It includes defense. Another thing you fail to do, because you're a disingenuous, shady dickbag, is make note of differing offensive environments. Yes, the 95-96 Bulls had a higher ORTG -- but not relative to the entire league. The 15-16 Warriors were 8.8 points better per 100 possessions than the league average. The 95-96 Bulls were 8.1 points better. Despite having a shortened line at their disposal (imagine the Warriors having that luxury), and playing in a somewhat diluted league while playing their most optimal lineups more often than the Warriors do theirs. So yes, they're still the GOAT offensive team with Curry on the floor, and pedestrian with him off it.

Same applies for personal ORTG, Jordan's highest ORTG season was in 91, Curry's this year, both registered at 125, but the league-wide points/100 poss. was 1.5 points higher in '91.

You've done jack shit to prove that Jordan's best offensive year was better than Curry's. Jack. Shit.

LBJFTW

04-23-2016, 09:01 PM

....

LBJFTW

04-23-2016, 09:02 PM

Curry made one hundred more threes than LeBron even attempted this year.

Who's the greatest player and leading scorer in the league>?

73-9

Game over!

Unless Curry wins a DPOY or makes a first all NBA defensive team, he'll just go down in history as a one way player like Magic. He'll always be looked at as being inferior to the great 2 way players.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 09:23 PM

Unless Curry wins a DPOY or makes a first all NBA defensive team, he'll just go down in history as a one way player like Magic. He'll always be looked at as being inferior to the great 2 way players.

He's one of the best defenders at his position and led the league in steals, I would say he's a great 2 way player.

You truly expect a PG to be a defensive anchor? Tell me how often you see that happening?

Offense is more important than defense and he led his team to the best offensive season the world has ever seen.

Haters keep hating and denying the truth!

73-9

LBJFTW

04-23-2016, 09:56 PM

He's one of the best defenders at his position and led the league in steals, I would say he's a great 2 way player.

You truly expect a PG to be a defensive anchor? Tell me how often you see that happening?

Offense is more important than defense and he led his team to the best offensive season the world has ever seen.

Haters keep hating and denying the truth!

73-9

Call me when he makes first all NBA defensive team. Until then, he's a 1 way player relative to the other all time 2 way greats and 3ball stays winning.

CuterThanRubio

04-23-2016, 10:00 PM

Call me when he makes first all NBA defensive team. Until then, he's a 1 way player relative to the other all time 2 way greats and 3ball stays winning.

How many PG's have made first team all defense, while leading the league in scoring at the same time?

Answer that?

Failing to recognize the evolution of NBA basketball and holding today's players to outdated and arbitrary criteria is not an accurate way to judge talent!

How much stock should be put into media voted awards in the first place?

Shaq only has one MVP, are you going to discredit him because of that?

Your logic sucks

knicksman

04-23-2016, 10:06 PM

:yaohappy: .. :kobe:.. Curry has less than HALF the shot attempts at the rim and within 5 feet are of Lebron.

If we grade Jordan and Lebron's rim attack grade as a 10, then Curry's is a 2, or thereabouts.

That's the obvious reality and consensus.
.

why would you attack the rim when you can shoot 3s which is much much harder that even jordan couldnt do it. The game has evolved my friend. Jordans game would be obsolete in todays game.

knicksman

04-23-2016, 10:10 PM

Comparing defense to offense is like comparing a ceo to a mcdonalds employee. You get promoted from mcdonalds employee to ceo just like you get promoted from a mere defensive player to a curry not the other way around. So why would curry give a damn about defense.

AirBonner

04-23-2016, 10:16 PM

knicksman

04-23-2016, 10:25 PM

The goal is to score more than the other team. That is why defense is played you dumbass.

But basketball has 5 players and players have limited stamina. So why would you let your best player waste his stamina on less important things esp when 2nd round picks(draymond) could do it. Theres a reason why they won 73 coz their FO is smart not like you. I guess you would want your ceo to be the cashier in mcdonalds too. Lol

3ball

04-24-2016, 01:01 AM

.
Each stat is linked to NBA.COM:

Over 80% of today's 3-point attempts are "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "very open" (6+ feet) - as described by NBA.com:

........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

LEAGUE-AVERAGE
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=0-2%20Feet%20-%20Very%20Tight).................... 4.1 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=2-4%20Feet%20-%20Tight)..................9.9 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=4-6%20Feet%20-%20Open)..................9.4 (http://stats.nba.com/league/team/shots/#!/?sort=FG3A&dir=1&ShotDistRange=&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS .................1.7%................17.2%........ .....41.6%.............39.5%

Over 70% of Curry's 3-point attempts are either "open" (4-6 ft) or "very open" (6+ ft).. However, the league average is 80%, as shown above.

........................................0-2 ft (very tight).... 2-4 ft (tight)..... 4-6 ft (open).... 6+ ft (very open)

STEPH CURRY'S.
3-PT ATTEMPTS PER GAME ............0.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season).................... 2.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..................5.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..................2.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) <-- nba.com

PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL 3-PT ATTEMPTS .................0.4%................ 26.1%.............45.9%.............24.3%
.

3ball

04-24-2016, 01:03 AM

.
The stats above showing that most of today's 3-pointers are wide open shouldn't be a surprise - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.

However, a shortened 3-point line (like what the Bulls had in 1996) would reduce a defender's closeout distance by 3-4 feet, thus eliminating the extra room the Warriors enjoy on most of their 3-pointers.

However, regardless of the shortened line, 3-pointers have ALWAYS needed to be more open, much more than 2-pointers - certainly, most 2-pointers aren't taken with 4+ feet of room like today's 3-pointers.. Since 3-pointers must be more open, today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG.

Otoh, previous eras barely shot 3-pointers - instead, they settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.

Also, today's teams use offensive schemes that maximize 3-point looks, so players shoot 3-pointers easier than ever before.. Specifically, driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Consequently, good 3-point shooters in the 80's and 90's didn't benefit from offenses that were based on their strength like today's 3-point shooters do.

Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for most of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to just stand there and wait for kickouts like today's player.
.

3ball

04-24-2016, 01:07 AM

I'm saying his best offensive season is better than Jordan's best.

Jordan opened up the floor for teammates more - great rim attackers like Jordan and Lebron cause an ENTIRE DEFENSE to perpetually cheat in their direction.. This frees up teammates far more for open shots (including threes) than a SINGLE DEFENDER hugging Curry on the perimeter.. One player can't space the floor by himself - Curry needs all his teammates shooting threes TOGETHER to have floor-spacing.

In addition to opening it up for teammates more, Jordan's led in more offensive statistical categories in 1991: PER, win shares, PPG, offensive rebounds, turnovers, and equal points-per-possession... Curry only leads in OBPM, assists and true shooting.

Finally, Curry and the Warrior's offense relies on 3-point shooting to be great - without it, they're nothing.. Jordan and the Bulls didn't rely on any singular aspect of the game to be great - they were just great BASKETBALL players, and therefore had greater capacity to excel and exploit in any era, style of play, or defensive strategy.

Despite having a shortened line at their disposal (imagine the Warriors having that luxury)

NBA.com tracks the distance that defenders are from shooters - over 80% of today's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room, including 70% of Curry's.. This data is shown in the previous post (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693).

However, a shortened 3-point line (like what the Bulls had in 1996) would reduce a defender's closeout distance by 3-4 feet, thus eliminating the extra room the Warriors enjoy on most of their 3-pointers.

Jordan's highest ORTG season was in 91, Curry's this year, both registered at 125, but the league-wide points/100 poss. was 1.5 points higher in '91.

League-wide points/100 poss (ortg) is the average of the each TEAM'S ortg, not individuals.

We don't have data on the average individual ortg, so the point you're trying to make is incorrect.

Ultimately, both players produced 125 points per 100 possessions, and Jordan did so because he averaged 1.4 less turnovers per 100 possessions and partially offset his worse 3-point efficiency with greater midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43)..
.

knicksman

04-24-2016, 01:23 AM

3pters open up the paint while slashers open up the 3pt line. So according to 3ball, its better to give up the paint than the 3pt line. I guess thats the reason why youre fired as a coach:lol

PejaTheSerbSnip

04-24-2016, 01:29 AM

League-wide points/100 poss (ortg) is the average of the each TEAM'S ortg, not individuals.

We don't have data on the average individual ortg, so the point you're trying to make is incorrect.

Ultimately, both players produced 125 points per 100 possessions, and Jordan did so because he averaged 1.4 less turnovers per 100 possessions and partially offset his worse 3-point efficiency with greater midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43)..

That's exactly the point....Curry's ORTG was higher relative to the offensive environment he was in. His ORTG was higher than the league mark by a bigger span than Jordan's was. My point wasn't "incorrect". You're just an idiot.

I can't believe you won't even concede the point about the shortened three point line -- even spinning it as a POSITIVE and implying the Warriors would shoot WORSE because of "close out distance" :roll:

You're like Rain Man, except while having the retardation part down pat, you have absolutely no savant-like skills. Not gonna bother exploiting your ass anymore.

3ball

04-24-2016, 01:37 AM

3pters open up the paint while slashers open up the 3pt line. So according to 3ball, its better to give up the paint than the 3pt line.

:whatever: :kobe: :yaohappy:

When a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters more open than otherwise.. Basketball 101

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes 5 Warriors shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.
.

3ball

04-24-2016, 02:10 AM

I can't believe you won't even concede the point about the shortened three point line -- even spinning it as a POSITIVE and implying the Warriors would shoot WORSE because of "close out distance"

"Closeout" is well-known basketball term - "closing out" is what a defender does when they are running at a shooter to get a hand up.

A shortened 3-point line would mean it's easier for defenders to closeout on shooters, since they're covering 3-4 feet less of floor space - this is crucial, since it's statistical fact that the Warriors need 4+ feet of room on over 80% of their 3-point shots.

Curry's ORTG was higher relative to the offensive environment he was in.

Curry's offensive environment is the most well-spaced floor of all time - his teammates attempted 20 threes per game at nearly 40%, which is probably a record for supporting cast.

Otoh, teams only attempted 2 threes per game when Jordan entered the league, so his offensive environment had NO spacing compared to Curry's.

3pters open up the paint while slashers open up the 3pt line. So according to you, its better to give up the paint than the 3pt line.

:whatever: :kobe: :yaohappy:

When a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters more open than otherwise.. Basketball 101

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes 5 Warriors shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.

His ORTG was higher than the league mark by a bigger span than Jordan's was. My point wasn't "incorrect". You're just an idiot.

That's pretty incompetent - if we put Tyson Chandler and Ibaka (who both have 120 individual ORtg's) on a 2-man team, does that mean they will produce a 120 TEAM ortg in a 2-on-2 tournament?.. Obviously not - they won't play well together and will produce much a much lower ORtg.

The average of the 2016 Warriors' individual ortg's is 113.3, but their TEAM produced a 114.8 ORtg.. Obviously, the two aren't the same.

The number of points a team produces per 100 possessions is different from the number of points an individual produces, and we don't have information on the average individual ortg to evaluate Jordan's ortg relative to the league average.
.

Cleverness

04-24-2016, 02:35 AM

Curry's offense > Jordan's

So basically Curry is better on offense because he's more efficient and added the 3-point game into his repertoire

3ball

04-24-2016, 02:54 AM

So basically Curry is better on offense because he's more efficient

Curry is more efficient on a per SHOT basis (shooting efficiency).

However, Jordan had higher per POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), which is more important - his higher per possession efficiency was due primarily to lower turnovers, but also because his superior midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) efficiency partially offset Curry's 3-point efficiency.

Ultimately, Jordan simply DID MORE - he was involved in more possessions (usage) at higher per-possession efficiency - Jordan gave his team MORE (possessions) of a GOOD THING (efficiency).

and added the 3-point game into his repertoire

Curry can have the 3-pointers because Jordan was better virtually everywhere else.

And his style freed up teammates more - when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.. This is basketball 101.

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.

AirBonner

04-24-2016, 03:09 AM

Curry is more efficient on a per SHOT basis (shooting efficiency).

However, Jordan had higher per POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), which is more important - his higher per possession efficiency was due primarily to lower turnovers, but also because his superior midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) efficiency partially offset Curry's 3-point efficiency.

Ultimately, Jordan simply DID MORE - he was involved in more possessions (usage) at higher per-possession efficiency - Jordan gave his team MORE (possessions) of a GOOD THING (efficiency).

Curry can have the 3-pointers because Jordan was better virtually everywhere else.

And his style freed up teammates more - when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.. This is basketball 101.

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.

To sum up Jordan is what Curry would be if he DID MORE.

GimmeThat

04-24-2016, 03:12 AM

and Derrick Favors is the next Great PF

and the jury is debating whether or not Ersan Ilyasova is the original Kawhi Leonard

moongaze

04-24-2016, 03:42 AM

Indeed... And keep in mind that Curry isn't capable of 40+ points without at least 2+ turnovers..

He only has ONE 40 point game with 1 or zero turnovers IN HIS ENTIRE 7-YEAR CAREER..

Otoh, Jordan had 30 games of 40+ points and 1 or zero turnovers thru 7 seasons (1993).

New fans and pundits of the game brag about Curry's points-per-shot, but points-per-possession is more important and Jordan's lower turnovers allowed him to generate more points-per-possession for his team than Curry (while also carrying a larger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12305579&postcount=18) on both sides of the ball).
.

:applause:

knicksman

04-24-2016, 04:39 AM

Against slashers only the big men rotates who are already in the paint while with curry, alot of open shots are created because of switches where big men are in the 3pt line. And shooting is more advanced than slashing thats why curry rarely slashes. But if you turn him into slasher hes elite at it. Just look at the game against spurs. He destroyed them. Layups are easier than jumpshots thats why lebron<jordan<curry. Its stupid to think curry couldnt slash. Its just that slashing makes you more injury prone.

3ball

04-24-2016, 12:06 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

Against slashers only the big men rotates who are already in the paint

No sorry - see Isiah Thomas above - ALL defenders must cheat off their man when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor.

while with curry, alot of open shots are created because of switches where big men are in the 3pt line.

That's X's and O's, and virtually every team runs something similar - bigs must switch on the perimeter against EVERY team, because all teams run the high screen/roll with the floor spaced-out.

I prefer when an entire defense is forced to cheat off their man (like when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor), than a couple bigs managing switches on the perimeter (standard high screen roll action).

Can you imagine Jordan running today's high screen-roll with a bunch of 3-point shooting teammates clearing out the paint for him?

And shooting is more advanced than slashing thats why curry rarely slashes.

But if you make Curry a slasher, he's elite at it

Oh okay - let me get this straight - Curry doesn't attack the rim like Lebron and Jordan because....... he doesn't WANT to?

He doesn't WANT to be a dangerous rim attacker that forces the entire defense to cheat his direction thus getting open shots for teammates?

No, that doesn't fly - the reason he doesn't attack the rim like Jordan and Lebron is because he CAN'T attack the rim like they can.

The best player is the guy that combines Jordan/Lebron rim attack with GOAT shooting - Jordan WAS that player due to his goat midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) shooting and in 1992 he showed he could dominate with 3-point shooting like Curry - Jordan could shoot jumpshots like Curry AND attack the rim like Lebron, that's why he's the GOAT

diamenz

04-25-2016, 03:06 AM

jordan is goat, but he played twenty years ago. let it go, op.

knicksman

04-25-2016, 04:11 AM

No sorry - see Isiah Thomas above - ALL defenders must cheat off their man when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor.

That's X's and O's, and virtually every team runs something similar - bigs must switch on the perimeter against EVERY team, because all teams run the high screen/roll with the floor spaced-out.

I prefer when an entire defense is forced to cheat off their man (like when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor), than a couple bigs managing switches on the perimeter (standard high screen roll action).

Can you imagine Jordan running today's high screen-roll with a bunch of 3-point shooting teammates clearing out the paint for him?

Oh okay - let me get this straight - Curry doesn't attack the rim like Lebron and Jordan because....... he doesn't WANT to?

He doesn't WANT to be a dangerous rim attacker that forces the entire defense to cheat his direction thus getting open shots for teammates?

No, that doesn't fly - the reason he doesn't attack the rim like Jordan and Lebron is because he CAN'T attack the rim like they can.

The best player is the guy that combines Jordan/Lebron rim attack with GOAT shooting - Jordan WAS that player due to his goat midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) shooting and in 1992 he showed he could dominate with 3-point shooting like Curry - Jordan could shoot jumpshots like Curry AND attack the rim like Lebron, that's why he's the GOAT

So youve been harping on lebron for not playing off ball but now hating on curry for playing off ball. Coz drive and kick is basically lebron ball. So which is which 3ball? Jordan and curry winning 72/73 or jordan avging triple doubles but only winning 47. Who do you think ran better offenses genius?:lol

3ball

04-25-2016, 04:44 AM

https://media.giphy.com/media/aFOjYAHBVJ8zu/giphy.gif

So youve been harping on lebron for not playing off ball but now hating on curry for playing off ball. Coz drive and kick is basically lebron ball. So which is which 3ball? Jordan and curry winning 72/73 or jordan avging triple doubles but only winning 47. Who do you think ran better offenses genius?

My point is that defenders don't need to cheat off their man in fear of Curry attacking the rim like they do for Jordan and Lebron.

But aside from that, you aren't understanding the way these guys play - for the most part, Jordan and Lebron don't attack the rim the same way.. Lebron uses live, existing dribbles much more often - he pounds the rock several times to set up a drive.

Otoh, Jordan moves off-ball, then catches the ball, and then either shoots a jumper (like Curry), or drives from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple-threat), shown above - this is a much quicker way to attack the basket and doesn't leave teammates standing around as long.

Jordan's game combined Curry's catch-and-shoot game with his own catch-and-slash game (shown above), with a minor amount of Lebron/Harden ball-dominance mixed in as well.. Obviously, Curry and Jordan's off-ball game promotes superior team chemistry, but Jordan was great at all aspects - he wasn't forced to do mostly catch-and-shoot like Curry, or PG-style ball-dominance like Lebron.

Im Still Ballin

04-25-2016, 04:56 AM

Has OP mentioned the Warriors broke the playoffs 3pt record without Curry for most of the game?

knicksman

04-25-2016, 05:03 AM

My point is that defenders don't need to cheat off their man in fear of Curry attacking the rim like they do for Jordan and Lebron.

But aside from that, you aren't understanding the way these guys play - for the most part, Jordan and Lebron don't attack the rim the same way.. Lebron uses live, existing dribbles much more often - he pounds the rock several times to set up a drive.

Otoh, Jordan moves off-ball, then catches the ball, and then either shoots a jumper (like Curry), or drives from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple-threat), shown above - this is a much quicker way to attack the basket and doesn't leave teammates standing around as long.

Jordan's game combined Curry's catch-and-shoot game with his own catch-and-slash game (shown above), with a minor amount of Lebron/Harden ball-dominance mixed in as well.. Obviously, Curry and Jordan's off-ball game promotes superior team chemistry, but Jordan was great at all aspects - he wasn't forced to do mostly catch-and-shoot like Curry, or PG-style ball-dominance like Lebron.

So defenders only cheat which they still can defend. Meanwhile with curry picknroll, green is already open coz curry is being doubled. And curry has proven he can slash when spurs didnt gave him the 3pt shot. In the end, slashing is easier than being curry. If only jordan or bran could score like curry, im sure they wouldnt be sacrificing their body alot to score. And thats the reason why curry doesnt slash that much. To protect his body. But he is automatic in the paint

3ball

04-25-2016, 05:09 AM

Has OP mentioned the Warriors broke the playoffs 3pt record without Curry for most of the game?

Exactly - it was further support that Curry doesn't open it up for teammates like people think.

Intuitively, a SINGLE shooter can't space the floor much - if they could, then the 80's Celtics or 90's Pacers would've had great spacing due to Bird and Miller.. Instead, it's the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers and spacing the floor TOGETHER that provides the ongoing spacing seen in today's game.

Accordingly, spacing is obtained by either having a TEAM of shooters to collectively create spacing (Warriors), or a dominant rim-attacker that can shift an entire defense and force all defenders to cheat off their man (Jordan).

(said another way)

When a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters more open than otherwise.. Basketball 101

Otoh, individual 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire team of Warriors shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.
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