Hand-checking was not the biggest deterrent to penetration in previous eras

[3ball]

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It was the lack of 3-point shooting.. Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown below:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6ozo2gsUnmBUtTd6/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif



So anytime you contemplate how one of today's players would do in a prior era, understand that he wouldn't have teammates spreading the floor for him like he does today..
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[Smoke117]

Curry > Lebron > Kobe > MJ

[ClipperRevival]

It's a very obvious point though. Spacing back in the days wasn't as good as it is today so naturally, the paint was more clogged and it was just harder to get decent penetration.

[plowking]

So much easier to get into the paint when being hand checked compared to when teams play zone and just converge on you.

[I know you are]

Based on this logic, Curry would have been the ultimate player spreading the floor for his team and giving them an advantage that Jordan couldn't do for his team. :bowdown:

[3ball]

Based on this logic, Curry would have been the ultimate player spreading the floor for his team and giving them an advantage that Jordan couldn't do for his team


3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers and spacing the floor TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.. That's why the Warriors just broke the 3-point record in Game 4 without Curry.

Otoh, when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.

[stephanieg]

How many MJ gifs do you have?

[3ball]

So much easier to get into the paint when being hand checked compared to when teams play zone and just converge on you.


Zone is only allowed outside the paint and it merely offsets the open paint created by today's floor-spreading and paint-clearing 3-pointers.

Also, zone isn't allowed INSIDE the paint - to remain inside the paint, defenders must stay within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man, which is opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having players stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. :oldlol:
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[3ball]

How many MJ gifs do you have?


https://media.giphy.com/media/G5Srm5EwCWqv6/giphy.gif


As you can see, penetration is physically impossible due to the overcrowded paint, so Jordan is FORCED to pull-up from midrange.

Unlike today's game, previous eras didn't have sufficient 3-point shooters to draw defenders out of the paint.

[PP34Deuce]

3Ball would you say that with teams relying on the 3 point shot, midrange and the penetration game will come back?

I've noticed a trend in the east and it's been teams with an aggressive player that can get to the cup are gaining value again.

Kemba
Irving
Thomas

etc.

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/F8XqKsuJEiDPW/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/QshCWXdx9h7y0/giphy.gif


As you can see, penetration is physically impossible due to the overcrowded paint, so Jordan is FORCED to pull-up from midrange.

Unlike today's game, previous eras didn't have sufficient 3-point shooters to draw defenders out of the paint.

[3ball]

3Ball would you say that with teams relying on the 3 point shot, the midrange and the penetration game will come back?



Midrange and post will never come back because teams now have sufficient 3-point personnel to run plays that obtain 3-point shots instead of 2-point shots.

For example, now that teams have sufficient 3-point personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (instead of 2-pointers), drive-and-kick has supplanted post-ups as the most efficient option.





and the penetration game will come back?

You're missing the point regarding penetration.

Penetration is more prevalent NOW than previous eras.. Previous eras didn't have the 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, so the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown throughout this thread.

[PP34Deuce]

Midrange and post will never come back because teams now have sufficient 3-point personnel to run plays that obtain 3-point shots instead of 2-point shots.

For example, now that teams have sufficient 3-point personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (instead of 2-pointers), drive-and-kick has supplanted post-ups as the most efficient option.


You're missing the point regarding penetration.

Penetration is more prevalent NOW than previous eras.. Previous eras didn't have the 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, so the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown throughout this thread.

I wasn't clear. when talking ball penetration, I mean looking to score-not the drive and dish. We've been seeing more guards going inside to score or get to the free throw line.

[3ball]

I wasn't clear. when talking ball penetration, I mean looking to score-not the drive and dish. We've been seeing more guards going inside to score or get to the free throw line.


The reason there are more 20 ppg scorers at the PG/SG/SF positions than ever before, is because they penetrate AND SCORE more than ever before.. :confusedshrug:

There were 22 perimeter players (PG/SG/SF) that averaged over 20 ppg this season, compared to 11 in 1996.

Today's defenders don't wait in the paint like previous eras.. Due to 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds, today's defenders must help from OUTSIDE the paint, which allows for easier at-rim finishing than ever before.
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[Random_Guy]

Your hymen was

[ClipperRevival]

Midrange and post will never come back because teams now have sufficient 3-point personnel to run plays that obtain 3-point shots instead of 2-point shots.

For example, now that teams have sufficient 3-point personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (instead of 2-pointers), drive-and-kick has supplanted post-ups as the most efficient option.


You're missing the point regarding penetration.

Penetration is more prevalent NOW than previous eras.. Previous eras didn't have the 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, so the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown throughout this thread.

Advanced stats single handedly changed the game. When people saw the numbers in black and white, they knew shooting the 3 was the way to go. Just mathematically, it makes more sense. Making 33% of 3s equals 50% of 2s. And when you start shooting 40-45% from 3s, people who shoot the 2s just can't match that level of productivity on a shot by shot basis.

I always think the game will evolve. It never stays the same. But I can see this type of style being in vogue for a while.

[3ball]

I always think the game will evolve.


The game hasn't evolved - it's devolved - the extra 50% that players get from shooting a 3-pointer makes up for less skill on the post, midrange and virtually everywhere on the court inside the 3-point line.

But are players that shoot from 24 feet actually 50% better than players that shoot from 23 feet?.. Of course not, but they're rewarded as if they are, which allows all the other areas of the game to fall off.

Ultimately, the 3-point line is an arbitrary line that has weakened the skills in all other areas.. Most fans don't mind because they don't have a sophisticated enough appreciation for the game - they are enamored with the 3-point shot the same way a kid is enamored with a balloon.. But eventually kids get over their balloon fascination.
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[ClipperRevival]

The game hasn't evolved - it's devolved - the extra 50% that players get from shooting a 3-pointer makes up for less skill on the post, midrange and virtually everywhere on the court inside the 3-point line.

But are players that shoot from 24 feet actually 50% better than players that shoot from 23 feet?.. Of course not, but they're rewarded as if they are, which allows all the other areas of the game to fall off.

Ultimately, the 3-point line is an arbitrary line that has weakened the skills in all other areas.. Most fans don't mind because they don't have a sophisticated enough appreciation for the game - they are enamored with the 3-point shot the same way a kid is enamored with a balloon.. But eventually kids get over their balloon fascination.
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Agreed. But they have to go by the numbers. It makes more sense to shoot the 3 than the 2. But the game is definitely being dummied down. So many aspects of the game inside the 3 point line like footwork, post game and the midrange game is disappearing. And that's a huge part of bball that isn't being stressed at the highest level right now. This can only mean further dummied bball at the lower levels.

[pedromarinho]

3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers and spacing the floor TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.. That's why the Warriors just broke the 3-point record in Game 4 without Curry.

Otoh, when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man, which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat of their man.

Excelent point.

You could use Korver's example. He can't get no free space because his team has no other 3pt shooters.

BUT Otoh how many times we see Curry create is own 3pt shot from way behind the line and actualy MAKE IT? A ton!

Curry is the MJ of our era. The real one. In changing the game.

[3ball]

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Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint is too crowded and penetration is physically impossible - Jordan is forced to pull-up from midrange:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


You pretty much never see paints like this in today's game, where the player has NO CHOICE put to pull-up from midrange... Instead, 3-point shooters clear the lane of defenders, so players have easy access to the lane... Guys like Grant Hill, Penny and Jordan would see their stats EXPLODE in today's spacing.



And Grant Hill's sub-par shooting would fit in PERFECTLY in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler have poor 3-point and midrange efficiency ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, but they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim than ever before.. The spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Hill and Jordan athleticism the same way - except Jordan had GOAT midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12367120&postcount=12), which puts him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gives him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrook, Hill and company.
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[Im Still Ballin]

We've been over this nerdtard

It's simple

RULE ENFORCED SPACING

Illegal Defense

Checkmate.

[JebronLames]

Jordan played in the WWE era of the nba where everything was set up and predetermined. He would have 0 championships in today's league. :rockon: :rockon: