Stats that prove Jordan the goat, BY FAR

[3ball]

.
Players who were scoring champs AND 1st team all-defense:


Michael Jordan:. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Kobe Bryant:..... 2006, 2007
Kareem Jabbar:. 1971




Players who were scoring champs AND won championship:


Michael Jordan:... 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Shaquille O'Neal:. 2000
Kareem Jabbar:... 1971




Players who led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career:


Michael Jordan*


* led team in scoring by at least 10 ppg for every series, except two, where he led by 7 ppg and 5 ppg
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[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9
Kareem and Kobe were scoring champs and 1st team all-defense THREE TIMES TOTAL between them.. Jordan did it NINE TIMES, so he's the greatest 2-way player of all-time - it's not even close.

Kareem and Shaq were scoring champ while winning the championship ONE TIME EACH.

Jordan did it SIX TIMES... No one is close.. :confusedshrug:

Of course, Jordan is the only player that led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career... And he did it by 10 ppg... :eek:

[Achilleas]

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[3ball]

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Not at all - those are some amazing stats that clearly show the different level Jordan was on.

Again - Jordan is the only player that led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career... And he did it by 10 ppg... :eek:

Jordan was on another level/dimension from all other players.

[AirBonner]

Too bad he is not as good as wade at blocking

[LAZERUSS]

1-9

And in '94, the Bulls replaced MJ with Pete Myers, and were an injury-riddled lot...that went 55-27 and were a blown call away from going to the ECF's (in a series in which Myers averaged 7 ppg.) And had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games, they would have easily won 60+ games, and had HCA throughout the playoffs...which ultimately would have been enough to win it all.

MJ played with by FAR, the most stacked rosters in his title runs...in a watered down NBA in which most teams were lucky to have two great players, and most had no more than one.

[AirBonner]

And in '94, the Bulls replaced MJ with Pete Myers, and were an injury-riddled lot...that went 55-27 and were a blown call away from going to the ECF's (in a series in which Myers averaged 7 ppg.) And had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games, they would have easily won 60+ games, and had HCA throughout the playoffs...which ultimately would have been enough to win it all.

MJ played with by FAR, the most stacked rosters in his title runs...in a watered down NBA in which most teams were lucky to have two great players, and most had no more than one.
3ball going to say how weak the supporting cast is :lol

[LAZERUSS]

3ball going to say how weak the supporting cast is :lol

Pretty hard to argue against a supporting cast that had to replace MJ at the last minute with a journeyman D-League quality player,...and then went an injury-decimated 55-27, and were robbed in the ECSF's...in a seven game series in which Myers averaged 7 ppg.

[beastee]

3Ball is so in all your heads. It is INCREDIBLE. He doesn't even need to post stats, everyone with half a functioning brain knows Jordan is the GOAT, but he consistently gets you all rattled all day, everyday. :applause:

[AirBonner]

Pretty hard to argue against a supporting cast that had to replace MJ at the last minute with a journeyman D-League quality player,...and then went an injury-decimated 55-27, and were robbed in the ECSF's...in a seven game series in which Myers averaged 7 ppg.
Oh I agree. I think its obvious 3ball has this conversation already planned out on a spreadsheet

[LAZERUSS]

BY FAR the most STACKED rosters in the league in the ENTIRE 90's, and that was PROVEN by a an injury-riddled team that went 55-27 and were a blown call away from winning a title...all with MJ's replacement being the equivalent of a D-Leaguer.

Indisputable.

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Qd4El4fANzjTG/giphy.gif


Bulls went 55-27 and were a blown call away from winning a title


The Bulls were nowhere near winning the championship 1994 - they lost in the 2nd Round, where Kukoc's miracle walk-off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU) (above) prevented them from going down 0-3 and getting swept - despite this luck, they still lost and were 2nd Round losers.

Also, the 1994 Bulls would've lost to the Cavs in the 1st round, but the Cavs were missing their entire starting frontcourt: all-star Larry Nance, all-star Brad Daughtery, and Hot Rod Williams 12/8 with 2.3 blocks... Even though the Cavs were missing their 2 all-stars and 60% of their starting lineup, every game was a single-digit affair because the Bulls didn't have Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were nowhere near winning the championship 1994 - they lost in the 2nd Round, where Kukoc's miracle walk-off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU) (above) prevented them from going down 0-3 and getting swept - despite this luck, they still lost and were 2nd Round losers.

Also, the 1994 Bulls would've lost to the Cavs in the 1st round, but the Cavs were missing their entire starting frontcourt: all-star Larry Nance, all-star Brad Daughtery, and Hot Rod Williams 12/8 with 2.3 blocks... Even though the Cavs were missing their 2 all-stars and 60% of their starting lineup, every game was a single-digit affair because the Bulls didn't have Jordan.

Had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games between them...easily a 60+ win team that would have had HCA all the way thru the Finals. Oh, and as it was...they went 5-0 in the playoffs with HCA.

Easily a championship team without Jordan...and with the great Pete Myers in his place.

Next...

[3ball]

Oh I agree.


If the Bulls had significant talent after Jordan and Pippen, then why did the the team need Jordan to score the highest proportion of team points ever, which included at least 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers?.. Do you realize that no all-time great has led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 10 ppg?

No one was required to lead their team in scoring by THAT MUCH, or anywhere NEAR that much.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, the team also required him to lead in passing (Jordan led Bulls in assist % for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)).

Jordan's goat scoring, team-leading passing, and 1st team all-defense represents the largest load ever carried by any player.

[LAZERUSS]

If the Bulls had significant talent after Jordan and Pippen, then why did the the team need Jordan to score the highest proportion of team points ever, which included at least 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers?.. Do you realize that no all-time great has ever led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 10 ppg?

No one was required to lead their team in scoring by THAT MUCH, or anywhere NEAR that much.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, the team also required him to lead in passing (Jordan led Bulls in assist % for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)).

Jordan's goat scoring, team-leading passing, and 1st team all-defense represents the largest load ever carried by any player.

How good were those Bulls rosters without Jordan?

Not only did they go an injury-riddled 55-27, and would easily have won a title had they been healthy...

but then they were a 34-31 that were on an 8-2 record without BOTH MJ and GRANT the next year. Of course, Jordan joined that team with 17 games left, and STILL couldn't get them nearly as far as Grant had the previous season. In fact, it was GRANT who destroyed MJ and his Bulls in the '95 ECSF's.

It was so bad that the Bulls ownership realized...hey we have ZERO chance of winning a title again, unless we can get a true HOF-level PF like Grant. So, they added a HOF PF in Rodman, to a team that was able to win 55 games, all with a massive array of injuries, and without Jordan...to the same team with Jordan.

And the rest was history. The Bulls overcame MJ's horrendous shooting in the Finals from '96 and '98, and won three more titles.

[3ball]

Had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games between them...easily a 60+ win team


So you're assuming the Bulls are injury-free, but the rest of the league still has their normal injuries?

That's dumb - if the Bulls are injury-free, then the rest of the league must also be injury-free.

And since the Bulls had fewer injuries than the rest of the league, they would win LESS than 55 games under a league-wide, injury-free assumption.

Remember, the 1994 Bulls would've lost in the 1st round, but the Cavs were missing their entire starting frontcourt: all-star Larry Nance, all-star Brad Daughtery, and Hot Rod Williams' 12/8 with 2.3 blocks... Even though the Cavs were missing their 2 all-stars and 60% of their starting lineup (their entire frontcourt), every game was a single-digit affair because the Bulls didn't have Jordan.

[3ball]

3ball going to say how weak the supporting cast is


So why was Jordan required to score the highest proportion of team points EVER, while still leading his team in passing (Jordan led Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49))?

^^^^ This is impossible if he had a stacked supporting cast.. It's math.. 2+2=4

[3ball]

Players who were scoring champs AND 1st team all-defense:


Michael Jordan:. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Kobe Bryant:..... 2006, 2007
Kareem Jabbar:. 1971




Players who were scoring champs AND won championship:


Michael Jordan:... 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Shaquille O'Neal:. 2000
Kareem Jabbar:... 1971




Players who led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career:


Michael Jordan*


* led team in scoring by at least 10 ppg for every series, except two, where he led by 7 ppg and 5 ppg



THREAD CLIFFS:


http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

[sportjames23]

How good were those Bulls rosters without Jordan?

Not only did they go an injury-riddled 55-27, and would easily have won a title had they been healthy...

but then they were a 34-31 that were on an 8-2 record without BOTH MJ and GRANT the next year. Of course, Jordan joined that team with 17 games left, and STILL couldn't get them nearly as far as Grant had the previous season. In fact, it was GRANT who destroyed MJ and his Bulls in the '95 ECSF's.

It was so bad that the Bulls ownership realized...hey we have ZERO chance of winning a title again, unless we can get a true HOF-level PF like Grant. So, they added a HOF PF in Rodman, to a team that was able to win 55 games, all with a massive array of injuries, and without Jordan...to the same team with Jordan.

And the rest was history. The Bulls overcame MJ's horrendous shooting in the Finals from '96 and '98, and won three more titles.


3ball got Russ permanently shook. Fill this form out, pls.

https://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/form.jpg

[3ball]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Qd4El4fANzjTG/giphy.gif


Bulls went 55-27 and were a blown call away from winning a title


The 1994 Bulls lost in the 2nd Round, where Kukoc's miracle walk-off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NSpgbPcxoU) (above) prevented them from going down 0-3 and getting swept - despite this luck, they still lost and were 2nd Round losers.

Your "if this, if that" logic can be applied to the Bulls' 1st Round matchup - they would've lost to a healthy Cavs team, since the Cavs were missing their entire starting frontcourt in that 1st Round: all-star Larry Nance, all-star Brad Daughtery, and Hot Rod Williams 12/8 with 2.3 blocks... Even though the Cavs were missing their 2 all-stars and 60% of their starting lineup, every game was a single-digit affair because the Bulls didn't have Jordan.

Interestingly, the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.


CONTINUED...
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[Straight_Ballin]

20 years from now MJ will still be GOAT and even a loser like Lebron will make who ever is the best in the league 20 years from now look like a D-leaguer by comparison. People will then start to make up rumors that Jordan was on some unique performance enhancing drug that only he had access to because simply, no one can be THAT dominant. :lol

[KobesFinger]

Do we need yet more threads and arbitrary criteria to prove Jordan is the best? We've been knowing man, just enjoy the game

[3ball]

MJ played with by FAR, the most stacked rosters in his title runs


It's common knowledge that after Jordan and Pippen, the Bulls had one of the least-talented rosters in the league.

The lack of talent after Jordan and Pippen is why Jordan scored the highest proportion of team points ever, which included leading his team in scoring for every series of his career by at least 10 ppg.. No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 10 ppg like Jordan.. Let that sink in - Jordan was in a different dimension.

In addition to Jordan's insanely goat scoring load, the Bulls also needed him to lead in passing (Jordan led Bulls in assist % for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)).. Jordan's goat scoring, team-leading passing, and 1st team all-defense represents the largest load ever carried by any player.





Jordan coattailed a ready-made 2nd Round team to a 3-peat dynasty


Jordan didn't only have a GOAT impact on 2nd Round teams - he had GOAT impact on lottery teams too:

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So heading into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a lottery roster and headed nowhere - but WITH Jordan heading into the 1990 season, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 6-peat dynasty.

That's the GOAT impact on a lottery team.

Btw, Jordan carried his 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the champs just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals when everyone was hurt.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team





most teams back then were lucky to have two great players, and most had no more than one.



90's teams with 2+ HOF or All-NBA players

brad daughtery - mark price
tim hardaway - alonzo mourning
david robinson - tim duncan
shawn kemp - gary payton
shaq - penny hardaway
john stockton - karl malone
shaq - kobe bryant
hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley
tim hardaway - chris mullin - chris webber
isiah thomas - joe dumars - dennis rodman



90's teams with 3+ All-Stars

brad daughtery - mark price - larry nance
david robinson - tim duncan - sean elliot
shawn kemp - gary payton - detlef schrempf
shaq - penny hardaway - horace grant
kevin Johnson - barkley - najerle
john stockton - karl malone - hornacek
shaq - kobe bryant - eddie jones - nick van exel
hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley
tim hardaway - chris mullin - chris webber
isiah thomas - joe dumars - dennis rodman