Penetrators like Lebrick and Westbrick wouldn't excel in the 60's because...

[3ball]

.
Players didn't dribble-penetrate on MOST possessions back then - the lack of 3-point shooters left the paint overcrowded and impenetrable (https://media.giphy.com/media/l0K42LRwFSt3PCu2I/giphy.gif) on most possessions.

Accordingly, players like Westbrick and Lebrick would be forced to pull-up and rely on their midrange jumpshots rather than penetrate, just like ALL players back then.

Unfortunately, Lebrick and Westbrick are poor shooters, so they would struggle in the unspaced environments of previous eras where good shooting was mandatory for good perimeter scorers.
.

[imdaman99]

The 60s? They would dominate even in the 90s bro don't get it twisted.

[Nilocon165]

Op likes to discuss basketball on basketball forums

[AirBonner]

.
Players didn't dribble-penetrate on MOST possessions back then - the lack of 3-point shooters left the paint overcrowded and impenetrable (https://media.giphy.com/media/l0K42LRwFSt3PCu2I/giphy.gif
) on most possessions (see gif above).

Accordingly, players like Westbrick and Lebrick would be forced to pull-up and rely on their midrange jumpshots rather than penetrate, just like ALL players back then.

Unfortunately, Lebrick and Westbrick are poor shooters, so they would struggle in the unspaced environments of previous eras where good shooting was mandatory for all good perimeter scorers.
lol the 60's? really bruh? Lebrick would knock all them unathletic whitebreads down like bowling pins. Stop your stupid speculation.

[ImKobe]

since they are faster and stronger than other players in the 60s they would simply push the ball and outrun those 5 ft 2 white scrubs

[Lebron23]

LeBron would turn Bill Russell into a Screensaver.

[Quickening]

OP melting down since it became common knowledge that Curry>MJ offensively

[SpaceJam]

LeBron would turn Bill Russell into a Screensaver.

No computers in the 60s

[Nilocon165]

LeBron would turn Bill Russell into a Screensaver.
He turned kawhi and igoudala into finals mvps

[3ball]

.
The GOAT impact on a DECENT team



The Bulls went from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team, back to 3-peat dynasty... Nuff said.



The GOAT impact on a LOTTERY team



In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So heading into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a lottery roster and headed nowhere - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 6-peat dynasty.

That's the GOAT impact on a lottery team - lottery to 6-peat dynasty.


Btw, Jordan carried his 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the champs just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals when everyone was hurt.



Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:




"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
.

[3ball]

The 60s? They would dominate even in the 90s bro don't get it twisted.


Specifically, HOW would they dominate?

The overcrowded paints would take away their penetration, just like it did for ALL OTHER players, so they'd be forced to rely on their shooting, just like ALL OTHER players.

But unfortunately, they can't shoot!!... The only reason they get away with poor midrange and 3-point efficiency in today's game is because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

[3ball]

Unfortunately, Lebrick and Westbrick are poor shooters, so they would struggle in the unspaced environments of previous eras where good shooting was mandatory for good perimeter scorers.


And that's the difference - in today's game, Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

But in previous eras, today's open lanes and easy penetration didn't exist, so good shooting was mandatory.

[RRR3]

Which LeBron?
He wasn't a poor shooter a few years ago



Also WB is a good midrange shooter

[Hey Yo]

It's game 7 and 3ball thinks Wade should be a play maker instead of a play finisher.

[ShawkFactory]

And that's the difference - in today's game, Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

But in previous eras, today's open lanes and easy penetration didn't exist, so good shooting was mandatory.
:biggums:

[3ball]

lol the 60's? really bruh? Lebrick would knock all them unathletic whitebreads down like bowling pins.


That's my point - that's an offensive foul, which is why the overcrowded paints prevented penetration in previous eras.

Don't you wonder why Lebrick and Westbrick are top scorers in today's game even though they have poor shooting efficiency (midrange AND 3-point)????

It's because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before - this easier access wouldn't exist in previous eras, thus forcing Lebrick and Westbrick to have good jumpshots if they want to be good scorers.. It's VERY logical and VERY intuitive

[JohnMax]

Lebron would collude with Wilt

[D. Toretto]

Weirdos like 3ball won't excel in modern ISH-era because ...
nobody has seen Wilt play.

[3ball]

Also WB is a good midrange shooter


Westbrook's midrange percentage is below 40% for his entire career except this year

He's a horrible shooter with horrible efficiency - the stats show this clearly





Lebron wasn't a poor shooter a few years ago


Lebron's midrange efficiency is below 40% for 10 of his 13 seasons, while his 3-point percentage is below 35% for 8 of 13 seasons..

Similar to Westbrick, Lebrick had poor midrange and 3-point efficiency for most of his career.






Let's see the actual stats



...NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)



.......................Midrange Efficiency .


Lebron.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%.. 96/259

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101

Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 36.9%.. 164/445
Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/):. 42.4%.. 129/304

D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):... 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/):... 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/):....... 35.9%.. 113/315



The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had well-documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gave him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrook and company..

[RRR3]

I don't care about most of his career. He was a good shooter with Miami in general. Not that you'd know

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron would be at the 4 and a mismatch nightmare in the post. He would outrun every9ne on the break for easy baskets like he does now.

[3ball]

Lebron would be at the 4 and a mismatch nightmare in the post.


Actually, he'd be an undersized power forward in previous eras... fact

[stephanieg]

Guys like talking about penetration.

[swagga]

mods ..

[3ball]

mods ..



You're aware that this paint is overcrowded and therefore IMPENETRABLE right??


https://media.giphy.com/media/l0K42LRwFSt3PCu2I/giphy.gif


Seriously, how would non-shooters like Lebron and Westbrook excel in an era where players had to rely on their midrange jumpshots due to impenetrable lanes?

There weren't any good scorers back then that WEREN'T good shooters.. Otoh, there's a ton of bad-shooting high scorers today, because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before
.

[sdot_thadon]

Actually seeing as the pace of the game was a track meet compared to the current league, guys like westbrook and lebron especially would feast on the multiplied transition opportunities. You're taking arguably the greatest transition player of all time and placing him in the highest fastbreak era, common sense should take over from here......

[LAZERUSS]

lol the 60's? really bruh? Lebrick would knock all them unathletic whitebreads down like bowling pins. Stop your stupid speculation.

This guy beat Lebron H2H in the Finals.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

Lebron would get called for palming before he could get the ball past half-court, ..not to mention fouling out for charging and throwing elbows while driving.

[Hey Yo]

Nice sarcasm ^^^

[senelcoolidge]

Basketball rules were actually implemented in games in the 60's. So no traveling, no double dribbles, no offensive fouls..etc. Lebron would have to reinvent his whole game. He'd probably play PF and not be that great at it.

[LAZERUSS]

Basketball rules were actually implemented in games in the 60's. So no traveling, no double dribbles, no offensive fouls..etc. Lebron would have to reinvent his whole game. He'd probably play PF and not be that great at it.

This.

As for Westbrick...his eFG% against the league average in '15 was .455 to .496.

Put him in Oscar's '62 season (Oscar shot .478 in a league that shot .426)...and The Brickster would have shot at a .390 clip. Not to mention that he would have also lost 2 ppg because of no 3pt line.

No team in the 60's would let a clown take 30 FGAs while shooting .390 from the field. Westbrick would have been delivering pizzas in that era.

[3ball]

You're taking arguably the greatest transition player of all time and placing him in the highest fastbreak era, common sense should take over from here


Most points were scored in the halfcourt, which is typical of any era.

Accordingly, Lebron's transition game would benefit less than his halfcourt game would SUFFER - the overcrowded paints in the halfcourt would hurt his bread-and-butter (penetration), and force him to use his weak areas (shooting).





the highest fastbreak era


You ethered yourself - using YOUR LOGIC, lebron would suffer in eras that had LESS transition, like the 90's.. Fortunately, we have data from 1997 onwards - the data shows that teams fastbreak more now than they did in the 90's:

2016 fast break stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs


Take this L (as usual sdot)






common sense should take over from here


You're ignorance always takes over - you're unaware that fastbreaks in previous eras frequently ended in contested midrange jumpshots.. Defenders forced midrange pull-ups by running to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line like today's game..

A cursory glance at footage shows that transition in previous eras frequently resulted in contested midrange pull-ups, which is unheard of today.

You've forgotten that 3-pointers need to be more open than 2-pointers - so today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG... Otoh, previous eras settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.
.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Op likes to discuss basketball on basketball forums

this.

[90sgoat]

Lebrick would suck in the 60s, but Westbrick would do well with the higher pace and would kill in the fastbreak plus he has a good pull up mid range. Big O was not much different than Westbrook when you watch him play, though most likely a much higher IQ.

[3ball]

Westbrick would do well with the higher pace and kill the fastbreak


Most points are scored in the halfcourt, so Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.

In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).





They would benefit from the fastbreak


If Lebron and Westbrook would benefit from MORE fastbreak, then they would suffer with LESS fastbreak, like in the 90's.

We have data from 1997 onwards, and it shows that teams fastbreak more now than they did in the 90's:

2016 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs


Accordingly, Lebron and Westbrook would suffer in the 90's due to less transition opportunities.. :confusedshrug:





Westbrook has a good pull up mid range.


Westbrook's midrange efficiency is lower than 40% for his entire career and his 3-point efficiency has been very poor as well.. Lebron, Wade, Derozan and Butler also have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency for most of their careers.

How are these guys top scorers despite poor shooting efficiency?... It's simple - today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Jordan the same way, except he had documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.

[90sgoat]

Westbrook is a poor mid range shooter in the half court, but he does have a good efficiency - to my eye test - on the break with the pull up jumper, these stats probably don't exist? Westbrook has a very similar game to a lot of the high scoring wings in the 80s run and gun, rarely setting up a half court.

Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s. Lebron would struggle to score 20 ppg and Westbrook would definitely be a shooting guard and my guess is he would have been a defensive stopper, he could be reschooled to be sort of a Starks or Majerle, because he simply doesn't have the IQ necessary to be a point guard.

[FKAri]

And yet they're both succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever :lol


Westbrook is a poor mid range shooter in the half court, but he does have a good efficiency - to my eye test - on the break with the pull up jumper, these stats probably don't exist? Westbrook has a very similar game to a lot of the high scoring wings in the 80s run and gun, rarely setting up a half court.

Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s. Lebron would struggle to score 20 ppg and Westbrook would definitely be a shooting guard and my guess is he would have been a defensive stopper, he could be reschooled to be sort of a Starks or Majerle, because he simply doesn't have the IQ necessary to be a point guard.
AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year
But WB who has much more size and isn't as reliant on speed would have trouble? :lol

[CuterThanRubio]

You've lost your touch, 3ball.

The Warriors have wrecked you!

This thread is a total failure!

http://nbanowandthen.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/6/8/13687849/8302294_orig.jpg

Look at all of those LeBron stoppers!

:coleman:

[feyki]

Lebron would mix of between Oscar and Elgin in 60's .

[3ball]

80s run and gun rarely setting up a half court


:biggums:

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster.

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).





Lebron and Westbrook would both be very inefficient in the 90s.


This is true, since the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

Also, nba.com has fastbreak stats from 1997 onwards, and they show that teams had much LESS fastbreak in the 90's:

2016 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs





Westbrook has a good pull up mid range.


Westbrook's midrange efficiency is lower than 40% for his entire career and his 3-point efficiency has been very poor as well.. Lebron, Wade, Derozan and Butler also have poor midrange and 3-point efficiency for most of their careers.

How are these guys top scorers despite poor shooting efficiency?... It's simple - today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Jordan the same way, except he had documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.
.

[Blue&Orange]

they would be called for traveling and palming on every play.

Lebron and his stiff arm would fouled out in 5 minutes

[3ball]

AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year


AI is one of the most inefficient players ever and isn't regarded that highly among all-time greats.

I have no doubt that Westbrook could match AI's historic inefficiency in the 90's.





(Lebron, Westbrook, Derozan, Butler and Wade are top scorers despite having poor midrange AND 3-point efficiency)

And yet they're succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever


They succeed despite poor shooting efficiency because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows players easier access to the rim than ever before.

How else could they succeed without being able to shoot?

[90sgoat]

And yet they're both succeeding in the most jumpshot centric era ever :lol


AI was a SG and had no problem even in his rookie year
But WB who has much more size and isn't as reliant on speed would have trouble? :lol

AI didn't play shooting guard until well into the 2000s, I don't care what position basketball reference has, he was a point guard for his first several seasons, just like Duncan is and has always been a center despite playing next to another center.

AI shot low 40s and sub 40s for most of his pre-rule change career. And that was shooting very few 3s.

Why bring up Iverson as some great player, he was a chucker pure and simple, he shot sub-40% and sub 30% on 3s in his playoff runs. You just can't turn it into some great achievement, he played in the worst conference of all time and was carried by DPOY and all time great Mutombo who put up 14 ppg 14 rpg and 3 bpg in the entire 2001 playoffs including 15 rebounds and 3 blocks in the Eastern Conference finals.

That run was Dikembe dominating an all time weak era for centers Jermaine O'Neal, Antonio Davis who were power forwards and Ervin Johnson who was an old stiff past his prime.

Dikembe was the MVP of those teams as proven as Iverson never did anything without him.

[3ball]

80s run and gun rarely setting up a half court


:biggums:

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster... And in the playoffs, pace was THE SAME as today - look it up (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats) - pace has always slowed down in the playoffs (94.0 in 1988 compared to 94.4 in 2015).

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

[MP.Trey]

So penetrators wouldn't succeed. Shooters wouldn't succeed. Damn, so who would? The 60's was such a weak era that no one could succeed. :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

:biggums:

You think most points in the 80's were scored on the fastbreak?... Are you serious?

That's not only ridiculously false, it's dumb and ignorant.. Most points were scored in the halfcourt - just like today - which explains why pace was only 10% faster... And in the playoffs, pace was THE SAME as today - look it up (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats) - pace has always slowed down in the playoffs (94.0 in 1988 compared to 96.0 in 2016).

Since most points are scored in the halfcourt, Westbrook and Lebron's halfcourt game would suffer more than their transition games would benefit.. In the halfcourt, the overcrowded paints would hurt their bread-and-butter (penetration), and force them to use their weak areas (shooting).

Why do you keep quoting again?

I was referring to Western Conference 80s teams such as Denver Nuggets or a team like RunDMC.

[aj1987]

This guy beat Lebron H2H in the Finals.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

Lebron would get called for palming before he could get the ball past half-court, ..not to mention fouling out for charging and throwing elbows while driving.
Bruh, the Celtics put their PG's on 7'1" Wilt and they raped them. Bob Cousy ****ed up Wilt. JJ Barea is like Kidd, compared to janitor Cousy.



OP, ballhogs like MJ would be a homeless mans version of Demar in today's NBA.

[3ball]

.
..NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)


.......................Midrange Efficiency .


Lebron.. 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.4%.. 185/508
Lebron.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%.. 96/259

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101

Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 36.9%.. 164/445
Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/):. 42.4%.. 129/304

D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):... 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/):... 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/):....... 35.9%.. 113/315



Lebron's midrange efficiency is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (not all seasons shown above), while his 3-point percentage is below 35% for 8 of 13 seasons.

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency for most of their careers, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had well-documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) goat midrange efficiency, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gave him a similarly massive advantage over Lebron, Westbrook and company.
.

[MP.Trey]

You misread the thread.

Players needed to be good shooters to be top scorers in previous eras, since the overcrowded paints forced players to pull-up from midrange.

Otoh, today's player excels without good shooting because the wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows players easier access to the rim than ever before.
So Steph Curry would have been great is what you're saying, gotcha.

[90sgoat]

So Steph Curry would have been great is what you're saying, gotcha.

Curry would be average because of no 3.

[aj1987]

Curry would be average because of no 3.
Except he can shoot 30 footers on a better clip than what Cousy can finish at the rim.

[Smoke117]

Lol...who the **** cares? Your threads get more and more pointless.

[LAZERUSS]

Bruh, the Celtics put their PG's on 7'1" Wilt and they raped them. Bob Cousy ****ed up Wilt. JJ Barea is like Kidd, compared to janitor Cousy.



OP, ballhogs like MJ would be a homeless mans version of Demar in today's NBA.

You are partially correct...Boston had their PG's on Wilt alright...as well as EVERY other Celtic player on the floor at the same time...

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html


In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever.. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."

And it took their entire roster to contain Wilt just enough to barely win four game seven's, and by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

Oh, and when Chamberlain finally had a roster the equal of Russell's? A total annihilation of the eight-time defending, and 60-21 Celtics, in the most arguably the most one-sided beatdown every administered by one GOAT upon another GOAT. I say arguably, because Chamberlain castrated Russell in the '65 EDF's as badly.


Now compare that to a Barea single-handedly shutting Lechoke down.

[aj1987]

2/6 and GOAT level chokes. 30 to 22 to 18.
Agreed, Loozerus.

[LAZERUSS]

Except he can shoot 30 footers on a better clip than what Cousy can finish at the rim.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not on a glass ankle, nor with slightly bruised knee.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The Warriors certainly don't need GAC to win a title. As long as they Iggy, they will shut down Lechoke.

[stephanieg]

They would dominate the '60s, until their PEDs wore off.

[aj1987]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not on a glass ankle, nor with slightly bruised knee.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The Warriors certainly don't need GAC to win a title. As long as they Iggy, they will shut down Lechoke.
Why you melting down, bruh? Chokerlain last choked over 40 years ago.

[BedroomBully]

In the 60s? The average height was like 6'3 and every other player had a regular job other than bball? Your trolling is just sad and pathetic.

[LAZERUSS]

In the 60s? The average height was like 6'3 and every other player had a regular job other than bball? Your trolling is just sad and pathetic.

The average height was 6-6, BUT, that was measured in bare-feet. Today's average height is 6-7, BUT, it is measured in shoes.

[raprap]

This place is trash im out until the finals.

[BedroomBully]

So tell me, what was the average amount of Black players during the 60s? Are we going to act like that does not matter? You're a fkn clown. Westbrook and LeBron would annihilate those poor bastards!

[CuterThanRubio]

The average height was 6-6, BUT, that was measured in bare-feet. Today's average height is 6-7, BUT, it is measured in shoes.

Less players = less height needed to boost the averages

Cousy was smoking cigarettes before games, the 50s/60s should be erased from the history books!

[BedroomBully]

Less players = less height needed to boost the averages

Cousy was smoking cigarettes before games, the 50s/60s should be erased from the history books!



Exactly!:cheers:

[3ball]

So Steph Curry would have been great is what you're saying, gotcha.


Do you think Curry could average 30 without the 3-point shot?

Yes or no

This season, Curry attempted 200 midrange shots and 886 three-pointers.. Compare that volume to Jordan's 1202 midrange attempts in 1997.. In other words, back when players didn't consider shooting 3-pointers, great midrange was their only option to score a lot of points - guys like Dantley, King, English, Vandeweghe, Gervin, Bird, Jordan - they all relied on insane midrange volume and efficiency to be a top scorer.

Otoh, Curry's 200 midrange attempts this season at 42.5% would've gotten him cut from every roster in prior eras.





I need 3-point shooting explained so I don't say dumb stuff about 30 footers


3-pointers have always needed to be more open than 2-pointers - certainly, most 2-pointers aren't taken with 4+ feet of room (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693) like today's 3-pointers.. Since 3-pointers must be more open, today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG.

Otoh, previous eras barely shot 3-pointers - instead, they settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.

And obviously, good midrange shooters are accustomed to taking and making midrange shots with defenders draped all over, which is why the shot can be obtained at any time without running much offense and is the most-used shot in the clutch.. Indeed, the eras that used midrange were exhibiting the highest level of skill.
.

[stephanieg]

Cousy was smoking cigarettes before games, the 50s/60s should be erased from the history books!

Unlike today, where the players certainly don't smoke anything. That would be unprofessional. Their body is their temple.

[aj1987]

I'm a cherrypicking boxscore watching retard.
Agreed.

[CuterThanRubio]

Unlike today, where the players certainly don't smoke anything. That would be unprofessional. Their body is their temple.

If you are referencing marijuana usage I have to laugh, dabbling in something that has proven medicinal properties versus puffing a pack of menthols before running is not comparable.

http://www.fairwarning.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/BobCousy1.jpg

:coleman:

[3ball]

Do you think Curry could average 30 without the 3-point shot?

Yes or no

This season, Curry attempted 200 midrange shots and 886 three-pointers.. Compare that volume to Jordan's 1202 midrange attempts in 1997.. In other words, back when players didn't consider shooting 3-pointers, having great midrange was their only option to score a lot of points - guys like Dantley, King, English, Vandeweghe, Gervin, Bird, Jordan - they all relied on insane midrange volume and efficiency to be a top scorer.

Otoh, Curry's 200 midrange attempts this season at 42.5% would've gotten him cut from every roster in the 70's.


I'm still waiting on MP.Trey to answer this one

[sdot_thadon]

Most points were scored in the halfcourt, which is typical of any era.

Accordingly, Lebron's transition game would benefit less than his halfcourt game would SUFFER - the overcrowded paints in the halfcourt would hurt his bread-and-butter (penetration), and force him to use his weak areas (shooting).



You ethered yourself - using YOUR LOGIC, lebron would suffer in eras that had LESS transition, like the 90's.. Fortunately, we have data from 1997 onwards - the data shows that teams fastbreak more now than they did in the 90's:

2016 fast break stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1
1997 fastbreak stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/misc/?sort=PTS_FB&dir=1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs


Take this L (as usual sdot)




You're ignorance always takes over - you're unaware that fastbreaks in previous eras frequently ended in contested midrange jumpshots.. Defenders forced midrange pull-ups by running to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line like today's game..

A cursory glance at footage shows that transition in previous eras frequently resulted in contested midrange pull-ups, which is unheard of today.

You've forgotten that 3-pointers need to be more open than 2-pointers - so today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG... Otoh, previous eras settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.
.
Well, its not like I expected any less from you. At least you're consistent with your illness.

This is how your threads routinely go:
1) Start distorted thread topic
2) get reamed by half of ish for being either uninformed or ridiculously dishonest.
3) too autistic to realize the **** probing being done
4)reiterate same stupid premise you got reamed over.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Pace was faster, defense was in the stone ages, and athletes dominated mortals in the 60s. The only kind of guys that had the type of physical advantages westbrook and lebron would enjoy are guys by the name of wilt, oscar etc. I'm sure you've heard of them, they pretty much make up a wing of the record book. Quit with the stupidity, you're too old.

[Hey Yo]

I'm still waiting on MP.Trey to answer this one
Maybe he's doing his best impersonation of you and duckin' the post?

[3ball]

The only kind of guys that had the type of physical advantages westbrook and lebron would enjoy are guys by the name of wilt, oscar etc.


You're making my point - Oscar was a goat midrange shooter, so he wasn't hurt by the aforementioned overcrowded paints that prevented penetration.

But with Lebron, the overcrowded paints of previous eras would hurt his bread-and-butter (penetration), and force him to use his weak areas (shooting).





Pace was faster


You've forgotten that 3-pointers need to be more open (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693) than 2-pointers - so today's teams need to run more offense, resulting in slower pace and less PPG... Otoh, previous eras settled for one contested 2-pointer after another, without needing to run as much offense.





defense was in the stone ages


How are Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler the top wing scorers in today's game, even though none of them (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) can shoot?

Obviously, it's much easier to get in the lane.. Today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense gives good ballhandlers and athletes easier access to the rim than ever before.

The spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Jordan's ability the same way, except he had well-documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43), goat midrange efficiency - this would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.