Is Kobe the only player to have done more with less?

[9erempiree]

The Lakers back to back team isn't even mentioned as one of the greatest team in history. Kobe is mentioned as one of the greatest players in history. With that being said, has he done the most with less than any other player in history?

He won back to back championships in an era that transitioned into small ball. He was beating teams with 2 slow footed centers, even though I love Pau. A point guard in Derek Fisher and a bunch of role players with the only exception being Lamar Odom.

Fast forward to today's league where centers are practically obsolete in the grandeur.

Has he done the most than any GOAT in an era of small ball? Those Lakers team could have been easily killed if you took Kobe and Curry off the team, or take Kobe and Dray off the team.

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Kobe+Bryant+Trevor+Ariza+NBA+Finals+Game+5+Aq6uLWy PMcLl.jpg

Lakers over the Warriors in 7 games though.
http://www.mktesportivo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Kobe-Bryant-2010-NBA-Finals-MVP1.jpg

[plowking]

Yes. He took more shots with less efficiency than any other top 15 player.

[9erempiree]

Yes. He took more shots with less efficiency than any other top 15 player.

When you are considered top 3-5 player of all time then you take as many shots as possible.

To be honest, only Michael Jordan can have the stamina, endurance and creativity to get that many shots off.

Magic only had one go-to hook and played Point. Kareem had the hook. Larry Bird wasn't very creative in terms of getting shots off.

Kobe and MJ both have a variety of moves and shots...that right there should give Kobe the nod over the speculative 15 players.

It's the laws of diminishing returns. The more you shoot, the more you miss. Nobody attempts a ton of shots and expect their percentage to go up. Doesn't work that way.

[aj1987]

When you are considered top 3-5 player of all time then you take as many shots as possible.

To be honest, only Michael Jordan can have the stamina, endurance and creativity to get that many shots off.

Magic only had one go-to hook and played Point. Kareem had the hook. Larry Bird wasn't very creative in terms of getting shots off.

Kobe and MJ both have a variety of moves and shots...that right there should give Kobe the nod over the speculative 15 players.

It's the laws of diminishing returns. The more you shoot, the more you miss. Nobody attempts a ton of shots and expect their percentage to go up. Doesn't work that way.
Yeah, well, Kobe isn't so....

[bobopenguin]

lebron destroyed many of his cavs stans by one decision~
lebron destroyed many of his heats stans by going back home.
lebron is going to destroy many of his cavs stans again by end of this season.

no other super star can destroy so much stans with only so few moves.

[Quickening]

Yes. He took more shots with less efficiency than any other top 15 player.

dammmmm... thread wrecked by first reply :pimp:

[9erempiree]

dammmmm... thread wrecked by first reply :pimp:

It's easier for you to agree with somebody that replies with one sentence than someone like me who can write an essay in seconds.

You have to read and comprehend before you can give an opinion.:cheers:

[bobopenguin]

It's easier for you to agree with somebody that replies with one sentence than someone like me who can write an essay in seconds.

You have to read and comprehend before you can give an opinion.:cheers:

u cant expect that kid from Cleveland can read.

[9erempiree]

lebron destroyed many of his cavs stans by one decision~
lebron destroyed many of his heats stans by going back home.
lebron is going to destroy many of his cavs stans again by end of this season.

no other super star can destroy so much stans with only so few moves.

As far as Lebron is concerned. He still has zero rings.

Miami fans are bitter so they won't acknowledge the rings they got with him.

Cleveland fans don't argue about how Lebron got rings because it wasn't with them.

Lebron stans always argue about his two rings but you will never see a Cavs fan defend Lebron by bringing up his ring count.

Unfortunately for him and his fans, he is still stuck at zero rings. Miami was so long ago....its as if it didn't happen.

[aj1987]

As far as Lebron is concerned. He still has zero rings.

Miami fans are bitter so they won't acknowledge the rings they got with him.

Cleveland fans don't argue about how Lebron got rings because it wasn't with them.

Lebron stans always argue about his two rings but you will never see a Cavs fan defend Lebron by bringing up his ring count. Unfortunately he is still stuck at zero rings.
Are you high on peyote, 9er?

[Quickening]

It's easier for you to agree with somebody that replies with one sentence than someone like me who can write an essay in seconds.

You have to read and comprehend before you can give an opinion.:cheers:
:sleeping

[sportjames23]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[swagga]

When you are considered top 13-15 player of all time then you take as many shots as possible.

.. some random shit was here ..

http://i.imgur.com/xPXL1ai.jpg

[toprange]

Kobe is top 3 all time, no contest. Like you said he did more with less. 2 time fmvp without a superstar or multiple stars on his team. And a 5 time champion!:bowdown: :bowdown:

[ImKobe]

led a team with 0 all-stars to the Finals and went 6 games against all-time stacked Celtics team

won b2b titles with 1 all-star sidekick who won zero Playoff games in 4 series as the lead guy

took the Lakers to the POs and took all-time stacked Suns to 7 games with Lamar Odom being his best player, as a 7 seeded team

Jordan was 1-8 in the Playoffs without Pippen, MJ retired and Bulls were a bad call away from making the Conference Finals

Kobe led the Lakers to the 2nd best record post-ASB despite Nash and Pau being injured with zero bench, starting d-league level players in 2013, goes down with achilles injury and team gets swept in the Playoffs by historic margins

led the most dominant Playoff team in NBA history in winshares at age 22, was the best player in the 11 consecutive wins as the Lakers swept their conference while posting b2b 45+ point/10+ reb games on the road

first player since Jordan to average 32/6/7 in a Finals series on a winning team..

oldest player to score 60+ points, in his 20th season and in his final game ever nonetheless, including hitting the game-winning shot

GOATbe.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes. He took more shots with less efficiency than any other top 15 player.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

underrated godly ether... seriously. Holy smokes. Best thing is its factually true :oldlol:

[tpols]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

underrated godly ether... seriously. Holy smokes. Best thing is its factually true :oldlol:

unfortunately, it is not.

Jerry West averaged two more shots per game in the playoffs and had an identical efficiency of .541 as Kobe had. very close though.

[ArbitraryWater]

unfortunately, it is not.

Jerry West averaged two more shots per game in the playoffs and had an identical efficiency of .541 as Kobe had. very close though.

he shot 46.9% opposed to Kobe's 44.8%... what do you mean 54.1? TS in an era without 3's? :oldlol:

[toprange]

led a team with 0 all-stars to the Finals and went 6 games against all-time stacked Celtics team

won b2b titles with 1 all-star sidekick who won zero Playoff games in 4 series as the lead guy

took the Lakers to the POs and took all-time stacked Suns to 7 games with Lamar Odom being his best player, as a 7 seeded team

Jordan was 1-8 in the Playoffs without Pippen, MJ retired and Bulls were a bad call away from making the Conference Finals

Kobe led the Lakers to the 2nd best record post-ASB despite Nash and Pau being injured with zero bench, starting d-league level players in 2013, goes down with achilles injury and team gets swept in the Playoffs by historic margins

led the most dominant Playoff team in NBA history in winshares at age 22, was the best player in the 11 consecutive wins as the Lakers swept their conference while posting b2b 45+ point/10+ reb games on the road

first player since Jordan to average 32/6/7 in a Finals series on a winning team..

oldest player to score 60+ points, in his 20th season and in his final game ever nonetheless, including hitting the game-winning shot

GOATbe.
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[ShawkFactory]

When you are considered top 3-5 player of all time then you take as many shots as possible.

To be honest, only Michael Jordan can have the stamina, endurance and creativity to get that many shots off.

Magic only had one go-to hook and played Point. Kareem had the hook. Larry Bird wasn't very creative in terms of getting shots off.

Kobe and MJ both have a variety of moves and shots...that right there should give Kobe the nod over the speculative 15 players.

It's the laws of diminishing returns. The more you shoot, the more you miss. Nobody attempts a ton of shots and expect their percentage to go up. Doesn't work that way.
:biggums:

[tpols]

he shot 46.9% opposed to Kobe's 44.8%... what do you mean 54.1? TS in an era without 3's? :oldlol:

well.. if Kobe couldve taken more 2 pt shots in that era, obviously his FG would have gone up since his midrange % >>> his 3 pt % :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

unfortunately, it is not.

Jerry West averaged two more shots per game in the playoffs and had an identical efficiency of .541 as Kobe had. very close though.

Duncan has the worst TS% for a Finals MVP

compare Kobe's 08-10 Playoff scoring numbers to 96-98 MJ
(MJ seasons 11-13 Kobe 12-14)
KB: 29.6 ppg 46,4%FG 22.4 FGA 56,9%TS
MJ: 31.4 ppg 45,9%FG 24.7 FGA 54,3%TS

MJ scored 1.8 more pts on 2.3 more FGA while Kobe averaged 1.6 more assists per game

KD's career Playoff averages vs Kobe's post-shaq


Kobe: 29.2 ppg 46.1%FG 22.4 FGA 56.1%TS
KD: 28.5 ppg 45.6%FG 20.9 FGA 57.6%TS

Kobe being an inefficient chucker is a pure myth.

[ArbitraryWater]

Duncan has the worst TS% for a Finals MVP

compare Kobe's 08-10 Playoff scoring numbers to 96-98 MJ
(MJ seasons 11-13 Kobe 12-14)
KB: 29.6 ppg 46,4%FG 22.4 FGA 56,9%TS
MJ: 31.4 ppg 45,9%FG 24.7 FGA 54,3%TS

MJ scored 1.8 more pts on 2.3 more FGA while Kobe averaged 1.6 more assists per game

KD's career Playoff averages vs Kobe's post-shaq


Kobe: 29.2 ppg 46.1%FG 22.4 FGA 56.1%TS
KD: 28.5 ppg 45.6%FG 20.9 FGA 57.6%TS

Kobe being an inefficient chucker is a pure myth.

Lmao, can I get those numbers with Shaq?

:lol

I know he shot like shit every post-season besides 2001, dont try to cover that up, darling :lol

[ImKobe]

Lmao, can I get those numbers with Shaq?

:lol

I know he shot like shit every post-season besides 2001, dont try to cover that up, darling :lol

Kobe's sample size was already 21 games bigger than KD's...I don't see what you're getting at here

Kobe's numbers post-Shaq are a fair comparison since both played in the modern NBA under the same rules, KD didn't have the luxury to play in the handcheck era. Teams in 2000 put up 5.2 less points per game than they do nowadays and EFG% has jumped up 5%.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's sample size was already 21 games bigger than KD's...I don't see what you're getting at here

Kobe's numbers post-Shaq are a fair comparison since both played in the modern NBA under the same rules, KD didn't have the luxury to play in the handcheck era. Teams in 2000 put up 5.2 less points per game than they do nowadays and EFG% has jumped up 5%.

whats this KD talk? When did anyone start talking about KD? Youre making points about Kobe's efficiency and then about KD compared to him, like they're the same :biggums:

Kobe isn't efficient, 44.9% mang... its okay though, hes still one of the 15 greats :cheers:

[PJR]

This narrative that Kobe stans try to push that Kobe had some underwhelming supporting cast will never ever be reality, or hold up under scrutiny.

Ever. :oldlol:

[toprange]

This narrative that Kobe stans try to push that Kobe had some underwhelming supporting cast will never ever be reality, or hold up under scrutiny.

Ever. :oldlol:
seems to be holding up pretty well. the usual lebron stans are hiding from this thread :rockon:

[Steven Kerry]

Yes. He took more shots with less efficiency than any other top 15 player.
:applause:

[aj1987]

well.. if Kobe couldve taken more 2 pt shots in that era, obviously his FG would have gone up since his midrange % >>> his 3 pt % :confusedshrug:
Kobe for his Career is a 40% mid-range shooter.

Lets say he takes 10 3's and 3 mid-range shots:

On 3's - 8 PPG
On mid-range - 9.9 PPG

[toprange]

Kobe for his Career is a 40% mid-range shooter.

Lets say he takes 10 3's and 3 mid-range shots:

On 3's - 8 PPG
On mid-range - 9.9 PPG

kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)

[aj1987]

kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)
I don't have the numbers, but I think LeBron is pretty close to Kobe from 3ft-10ft, as well. 10ft-16ft and 16ft-3pt, Kobe >. 3pt+, LeBron >.

What does my post have to do with LeBron though? :confusedshrug:

[HurricaneKid]

led a team with 0 all-stars to the Finals and went 6 games against all-time stacked Celtics team


Celts were taken to 7 games in the first round
Celts were taken to 7 games in the 2nd round
Celts were taken to 6 games in the Conf Finals and only outscored the Pistons by 10 in the series
Won Finals in 6 by combined 50 points

So the Lakers series was comfortably the easiest series of the playoffs for the Celts.



won b2b titles with 1 all-star sidekick who won zero Playoff games in 4 series as the lead guy


HoFer Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Reg Season winshares, postseason WS, and Finals WS in 2010. And carried a team that hadn't won a playoff series since Shaq left to B2B championships. See, this is easy.


took the Lakers to the POs and took all-time stacked Suns to 7 games with Lamar Odom being his best player, as a 7 seeded team.

And Suns were playing without their leading scorer in Amare. And for the second time in a handful of years Kobe seemed disinterested in winning the series. He famously shot once in the second half od G7.

In fact, during his year 26, 27, and 28 (generally considered physical peak years) seasons Kobe didn't even win a playoff series. Name another all time great that didn't win a series during his peak years.

And so on and so on.

[toprange]

I don't have the numbers, but I think LeBron is pretty close to Kobe from 3ft-10ft, as well. 10ft-16ft and 16ft-3pt, Kobe >. 3pt+, LeBron >.

What does my post have to do with LeBron though? :confusedshrug:
was translating it to a lebron stan language since you don't understand the basketball language really well.

[Lebron23]

Lebron > Kobe

4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

[aj1987]

was translating it to a lebron stan language since you don't understand the basketball language really well.
I'm sorry, I don't speak retard like you Kobe stans.

[Bigsmoke]

Bynum- 14/8 center when healthy even tho that's almost never
Gasol- 18/10 post threat/all star/top 10 player at the time
Ariza/Artest- both were great defenders. Ariza was a better bit while Artist was a borderline all-star before joining the Lakers
Kobe- Kobe
Fisher- Over the hill but provided leadership and clutch play.

Phil Jackson- G.O.A.T. coach

not bad if u ask me

[toprange]

Lebron > Kobe

4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

kobe >>>>> lebron.
2 time fmvp without any superstar or multiple stars on his team vs 0. And a 5 time champion

[riseagainst]

Kobe for his Career is a 40% mid-range shooter.

Lets say he takes 10 3's and 3 mid-range shots:

On 3's - 8 PPG
On mid-range - 9.9 PPG


higher than that.... like way higher.

[AirBonner]

underrating kobes supporting cast as usual

[toprange]

underrating kobes supporting cast as usual
underrating kobe as usual

[AirBonner]

underrating kobe as usual
25ppg on 44% shooting is suppose to be impressive? :facepalm

[Bankaii]

25ppg on 44% shooting is suppose to be impressive? :facepalm
But Kobe's the greatest scorer of all time!
But... 81 points doe:roll:

[34-24 Footwork]

Bynum- 14/8 center when healthy even tho that's almost never
Gasol- 18/10 post threat/all star/top 10 player at the time
Ariza/Artest- both were great defenders. Ariza was a better bit while Artist was a borderline all-star before joining the Lakers
Kobe- Kobe
Fisher- Over the hill but provided leadership and clutch play.

Phil Jackson- G.O.A.T. coach

not bad if u ask me


Lol. Gasol top 10 " at the time".

Aw man. People who don't like Kobe create some of the most delusional realities that they dare wouldn't try to justify if it wasn't for Kobe being the anchor of the conversation.

Even when Gasol was in Memphis putting up better numbers, no one called him dominant or top 10 in the league. Lol

[HurricaneKid]

Lol. Gasol top 10 " at the time".

Aw man. People who don't like Kobe create some of the most delusional realities that they dare wouldn't try to justify if it wasn't for Kobe being the anchor of the conversation.

Even when Gasol was in Memphis putting up better numbers, no one called him dominant or top 10 in the league. Lol

If he hadn't caught a finger in the eye Gasol might have taken out the entire Dream Team by himself in the Olympics. He outplayed Dwight in the 09 Finals which is a lot more impressive than people admit to. And in 2010 he took out the Celtics front line in leading the team in WS in Reg Season, Playoffs and Finals.

[34-24 Footwork]

If he hadn't caught a finger in the eye Gasol might have taken out the entire Dream Team by himself in the Olympics. He outplayed Dwight in the 09 Finals which is a lot more impressive than people admit to. And in 2010 he took out the Celtics front line in leading the team in WS in Reg Season, Playoffs and Finals.

He got outplayed by Kobe in the 2008 playoffs, 2008 Olympics, 2009 playoffs and 2010 playoffs.

And I repeat, at no time was ANYBODY calling Pau Gasol a top 10 player in the league. Are you gonna really lie about something so basic??

[toprange]

But Kobe's the greatest scorer of all time!
But... 81 points doe:roll:
kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)

[AirBonner]

kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)
which really puts things into perspective. Despite his shortcomings LeBron still managed to become the better player.

[toprange]

which really puts things into perspective. Despite his shortcomings LeBron still managed to become the better player.
how? He hasn't won any fmvp without a superstar or multiple stars on his team. And he is not a 5 time champion:confusedshrug:

[AirBonner]

how? He hasn't won any fmvp without a superstar or multiple stars on his team. And he is not a 5 time champion:confusedshrug:
How many allstars are on his team this year? Yet he still going deep in the playoffs.

[Bankaii]

Lol. Gasol top 10 " at the time".

Aw man. People who don't like Kobe create some of the most delusional realities that they dare wouldn't try to justify if it wasn't for Kobe being the anchor of the conversation.

Even when Gasol was in Memphis putting up better numbers, no one called him dominant or top 10 in the league. Lol
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/313661-top-10-nba-players-of-2009/page/4 (http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/313661-top-10-nba-players-of-2009/page/4)
http://thehoopdoctors.com/2010/12/top-25-nba-player-rankings-for-2010/

And he was top 10 in PER, Winshares, and +/-.
Keep lying to yourself to fulfill your agenda though.

[Bankaii]

kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)
Where in my post do you see Lebron?
Dude is all up in your head.

[toprange]

How many allstars are on his team this year? Yet he still going deep in the playoffs.
Are you saying Irving and Love are neither a star or a superstar??!!!:banghead: :banghead:

[AirBonner]

Are you saying Irving and Love are neither a star or a superstar??!!!:banghead: :banghead:
Those are Generic terms. A star can lead an organization to SUCCESS which NEITHER of them did.

[aj1987]

higher than that.... like way higher.
My bad. It's 40.2%. :cheers:


kobe's career mid-range fg%

0-3 ft - 63.4
3-10 ft - 44.8
10-16 ft - 43.9
16<3 ft - 40.2

btw lebron is less than 40% on all those categories except 0-3ft (obviously)
Do you even know what constitutes as midrange?

[ArbitraryWater]

My bad. It's 40.2%. :cheers:


Do you even know what constitutes as midrange?

dude just listed everything cause he wasnt sure

[toprange]

My bad. It's 40.2%. :cheers:


Do you even know what constitutes as midrange?
clearly you don't know how to read the stats on basketballrefference. 16 < 3 is the range from 16ft to the 3pt line NOT 16ft to 3ft. :facepalm

[riseagainst]

My bad. It's 40.2%. :cheers:


Do you even know what constitutes as midrange?


it's already listed for you multiple times. It's more in the 43% range.

[aj1987]

clearly you don't know how to read the stats on basketballrefference. 16 < 3 is the range from 16ft to the 3pt line NOT 16ft to 3ft. :facepalm
:wtf: :wtf: :biggums:

[Bigsmoke]

Lol. Gasol top 10 " at the time".

Aw man. People who don't like Kobe create some of the most delusional realities that they dare wouldn't try to justify if it wasn't for Kobe being the anchor of the conversation.

Even when Gasol was in Memphis putting up better numbers, no one called him dominant or top 10 in the league. Lol

Top 15 then.

[HurricaneKid]

He got outplayed by Kobe in the 2008 playoffs, 2008 Olympics, 2009 playoffs and 2010 playoffs.

And I repeat, at no time was ANYBODY calling Pau Gasol a top 10 player in the league. Are you gonna really lie about something so basic??

Pau didn't get outplayed by ANYONE in the 08 Olympics.

He CERTAINLY didn't get outplayed by Kobe in 2010.

I'd probably give you 08 and 09 playoffs, though Pau outplaying Dwight was really what won that series. Not that it was ever that close.

[bizil]

When u look at the top 10 GOAT (no order), ACTUALLY MJ had the least amount of scoring firepower to help him win rings:

MJ
Russ
Cap
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron

Kobe had Gasol and Odom as his 2nd and 3rd scorers. From there Kobe had a rising Bynum as his 4th scorer. And eventually Artest was a 4th to 5th option. MJ's top two scorers were Pippen and Grant. And later Pippen and Kukoc. But when u get down to the 4th and 5th options, the Bulls weren't as strong as the Lakers. So in my book, MJ did more with less than ANY of the immortal top 10 winning rings. Its a HUGE reason why MJ is the GOAT!

[TheMarkMadsen]

When u look at the top 10 GOAT (no order), ACTUALLY MJ had the least amount of scoring firepower to help him win rings:

MJ
Russ
Cap
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron

Kobe had Gasol and Odom as his 2nd and 3rd scorers. From there Kobe had a rising Bynum as his 4th scorer. And eventually Artest was a 4th to 5th option. MJ's top two scorers were Pippen and Grant. And later Pippen and Kukoc. But when u get down to the 4th and 5th options, the Bulls weren't as strong as the Lakers. So in my book, MJ did more with less than ANY of the immortal top 10 winning rings. Its a HUGE reason why MJ is the GOAT!

Why would you bring up Bynum?

He averaged 6ppg in the playoffs during their title runs. Arrest gave us like 10ppg on 39%..

Also, Pippen averaged a near triple double with 20ppg in the finals from 91-93. That's incredible for an all defensive first team second option

Kobe led his teams in both scoring and assist per game in the 09/10 finals.

[NBAGOAT]

When u look at the top 10 GOAT (no order), ACTUALLY MJ had the least amount of scoring firepower to help him win rings:

MJ
Russ
Cap
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron

Kobe had Gasol and Odom as his 2nd and 3rd scorers. From there Kobe had a rising Bynum as his 4th scorer. And eventually Artest was a 4th to 5th option. MJ's top two scorers were Pippen and Grant. And later Pippen and Kukoc. But when u get down to the 4th and 5th options, the Bulls weren't as strong as the Lakers. So in my book, MJ did more with less than ANY of the immortal top 10 winning rings. Its a HUGE reason why MJ is the GOAT!

I'm not the biggest Duncan fan but it's most likely Duncan who did the most with less(by a lot) since you didn't include Hakeem in the top 10. MJ doesn't even have a coaching disadvantage which could be a factor for other guys you're comparing to Duncan.

[bizil]

I'm not the biggest Duncan fan but it's most likely Duncan who did the most with less(by a lot) since you didn't include Hakeem in the top 10. MJ doesn't even have a coaching disadvantage which could be a factor for other guys you're comparing to Duncan.

When u look at Timmy's rings, he had Manu and Parker to help carry the scoring load. Those are three HOFers right there. In my opinion, Parker and Manu is a more devastating scoring tandem than Pip-Kukoc. Or Pip-Grant for the first three peat. Let's not forget about guys such as Robinson, Horry, Elliot, Steve Smith, etc. that were with Duncan on title teams too. And he even won a ring with Leonard recently.

As a whole, Duncan ACTUALLY played with more effective scoring help than MJ did. Once again when u look at the top 10 GOAT, MJ had the LEAST amount of scoring help winning rings than the other guys.

[bizil]

Why would you bring up Bynum?

He averaged 6ppg in the playoffs during their title runs. Arrest gave us like 10ppg on 39%..

Also, Pippen averaged a near triple double with 20ppg in the finals from 91-93. That's incredible for an all defensive first team second option

Kobe led his teams in both scoring and assist per game in the 09/10 finals.

MY POINT WAS Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what MJ's Bulls had as a 4th or 5th option. When Bynum was healthy on those title teams, he averaged 14.3 points and 15.0 points during the regular seasons. He was showing signs of being a future All Star. His main problem was injuries. But with that said, Bynum WAS STILL the 4th or 5th option at the time. With Artest, it was the same thing. I'm comparing them as the 4th or 5th scoring option IN COMPARISON to the MJ's Bulls 4th or 5th scoring option.

[NBAGOAT]

When u look at Timmy's rings, he had Manu and Parker to help carry the scoring load. Those are three HOFers right there. In my opinion, Parker and Manu is a more devastating scoring tandem than Pip-Kukoc. Or Pip-Grant for the first three peat. Let's not forget about guys such as Robinson, Horry, Elliot, Steve Smith, etc. that were with Duncan on title teams too. And he even won a ring with Leonard recently.

As a whole, Duncan ACTUALLY played with more effective scoring help than MJ did. Once again when u look at the top 10 GOAT, MJ had the LEAST amount of scoring help winning rings than the other guys.

ah I see you mean overall help over a career. I thought you were just talking about just individual years and was talking about 03 when Robinson was in his last year and manu was just a bench role player.

[bizil]

ah I see you mean overall help over a career. I thought you were just talking about just individual years and was talking about 03 when Robinson was in his last year and manu was just a bench role player.

U are right! I meant over the course of a career MJ had less scoring help winning rings than the other top 10 GOAT. MJ was the only one not to play with another alpha dog kind of player. And here's the kicker, the ONLY All Stars MJ played with in their primes on title teams were Pippen, Rodman, and Horace. When u compare that to the other top 10 GOATs, I think his case becomes more clear.

[pauk]

He is more closer to done least with the most....

[TheMarkMadsen]

MY POINT WAS Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what MJ's Bulls had as a 4th or 5th option. When Bynum was healthy on those title teams, he averaged 14.3 points and 15.0 points during the regular seasons. He was showing signs of being a future All Star. His main problem was injuries. But with that said, Bynum WAS STILL the 4th or 5th option at the time. With Artest, it was the same thing. I'm comparing them as the 4th or 5th scoring option IN COMPARISON to the MJ's Bulls 4th or 5th scoring option.


Ok, but why are you focusing on the 4th and 5th option when Jordan's 2nd and 3rd option were better??

Pippen was way better than Pau and was an all nba defensive player who was scoring more than Pau, assist more than Pau, playing better defense than Pau, getting more steals than Pau..

He was just a better player.

Rodman was better than Odom as an overall player.

Who cares if Kobe's 4th option averaged 9ppg and Jordan's averaged 8? Jordan was playing with Scottie Pippen who was putting up 21/8/8 in the finals every year for three years straight. He was the better player than Pau by a mile.

I would take early 90's Pippen & Grant over Pau and Odom any day of the week. Pippen was arguably the best SF in the league at the time, making all nba first teams, all nba defensive teams, Pau never touched that. And I don't even feel like I need to type anything to justify Rodman > Odom, that's just obvious as day.

Grant vs Odom would be the better argument, but even then who cares when Pippen is so much better than Pau was

[TheMarkMadsen]

He is more closer to done least with the most....


:roll: :roll:

[bizil]

Ok, but why are you focusing on the 4th and 5th option when Jordan's 2nd and 3rd option were better??

Pippen was way better than Pau and was an all nba defensive player who was scoring more than Pau, assist more than Pau, playing better defense than Pau, getting more steals than Pau..

He was just a better player.

Rodman was better than Odom as an overall player.

Who cares if Kobe's 4th option averaged 9ppg and Jordan's averaged 8? Jordan was playing with Scottie Pippen who was putting up 21/8/8 in the finals every year for three years straight. He was the better player than Pau by a mile.

I would take early 90's Pippen & Grant over Pau and Odom any day of the week. Pippen was arguably the best SF in the league at the time, making all nba first teams, all nba defensive teams, Pau never touched that. And I don't even feel like I need to type anything to justify Rodman > Odom, that's just obvious as day.

Grant vs Odom would be the better argument, but even then who cares when Pippen is so much better than Pau was

Because my point was Kobe had MORE OVERALL scoring help during his title runs than MJ. Kobe-Shaq goes without saying. But even in 2009 and 2010, I feel Kobe had more scoring help than MJ. The point of the thread was Kobe did SO MUCH with LESS!! When IN REALITY, MJ did more with less than Kobe did. Many of the GOATs played with a least ONE OTHER ALPHA DOG!! MJ NEVER PLAYED WITH ONE!!! A hallmark of MANY TITLE TEAMS was having a deep roster full of offensive firepower. MJ's Bulls WASN'T one of those teams.

When it comes to scoring, Pau and Pippen cancel each other out. BUT Pau was great on the block, among the top 10 of all time at the PF. And he had a great midrange game too. So I could see the case for Pau's scoring being MORE OF AN ASSET in that regard. It gave Kobe somebody to pass the ball to on the block. That Pau, Bynum, and Odom trio TRUMPS any supporting trio MJ ever had in terms of offensive firepower.

[ImKobe]

MY POINT WAS Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what MJ's Bulls had as a 4th or 5th option. When Bynum was healthy on those title teams, he averaged 14.3 points and 15.0 points during the regular seasons. He was showing signs of being a future All Star. His main problem was injuries. But with that said, Bynum WAS STILL the 4th or 5th option at the time. With Artest, it was the same thing. I'm comparing them as the 4th or 5th scoring option IN COMPARISON to the MJ's Bulls 4th or 5th scoring option.

But he wasn't during the Playoffs...dude broke down EVERY YEAR in like January/February...he was never healthy and could never be counted on in the Playoffs...2008 he suffered a season-ending injury in January as the Lakers were fighting for the top seed in the West, 2009 he was only healthy enough for 50 regular season games, got injured in February and wasn't cleared to return before April and avgd 6 ppg 4 rpg on 36% shooting against Orlando...barely produced in other series

2010 played 65 games, got injured in March and missed the rest of the regular season until the Playoffs and averaged 7 ppg 5 rpg on 45% shooting against Boston...

He was pretty much a non-factor for those 3 straight Finals runs as he always had lower body injuries and barely produced in the Finals..You can't put his impact on the offensive end over Rodman's in those Finals series..

A healthy Bynum is an all-star caliber player yes, but he wasn't healthy when they needed him the most...him putting up big numbers early in the season doesn't mean a thing when he's hobbling in the Playoffs.

Pippen had more impact on the Bulls offense than any teammate Kobe had for his 3 Finals runs...Kobe was the 1st option and also ran the offense while Pippen was putting up 20 points and playing point guard for the 1st 3-peat and allowed MJ to play off ball (who barely averaged 4 assists during the 2nd 3-peat in the POs).. Kobe never had that luxury.

[34-24 Footwork]

Because my point was Kobe had MORE OVERALL scoring help during his title runs than MJ. Kobe-Shaq goes without saying. But even in 2009 and 2010, I feel Kobe had more scoring help than MJ. The point of the thread was Kobe did SO MUCH with LESS!! When IN REALITY, MJ did more with less than Kobe did. Many of the GOATs played with a least ONE OTHER ALPHA DOG!! MJ NEVER PLAYED WITH ONE!!! A hallmark of MANY TITLE TEAMS was having a deep roster full of offensive firepower. MJ's Bulls WASN'T one of those teams.

When it comes to scoring, Pau and Pippen cancel each other out. BUT Pau was great on the block, among the top 10 of all time at the PF. And he had a great midrange game too. So I could see the case for Pau's scoring being MORE OF AN ASSET in that regard. It gave Kobe somebody to pass the ball to on the block. That Pau, Bynum, and Odom trio TRUMPS any supporting trio MJ ever had in terms of offensive firepower.


Was Pau REALLY a top 10 PF of all time? This can't be real life....

For basketball sake, I'd rather people admit to saying that only to devalue kobe than for people to ACTUALLY believe that shit.

Wow....

[ImKobe]

Was Pau REALLY a top 10 PF of all time? This can't be real life....

For basketball sake, I'd rather people admit to saying that only to devalue kobe than for people to ACTUALLY believe that shit.

Wow....

He might be 10th..


Duncan
Dirk
KG
Malone
Barkley
Rodman
Pettit
Hayes
McHale

But you have these new guys in the league like KAT, AD, Griffin, who will go on to have better careers than him. Those guys already have better peak regular season numbers than Pau :confusedshrug:

[Overdrive]

It's the laws of diminishing returns. The more you shoot, the more you miss. Nobody attempts a ton of shots and expect their percentage to go up. Doesn't work that way.

That might apply if you take 4 shots 1 game 6 the next. Chances are higher you hit better than your career FG% if it's below 50% when you take less shots than your average FGA, but at a certain amount it normalizes and you hit around your avg FG%, especially over a season.

Actually some players shoot better when they shoot more, because they start to streak.

[NBASTATMAN]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/313661-top-10-nba-players-of-2009/page/4 (http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/313661-top-10-nba-players-of-2009/page/4)
http://thehoopdoctors.com/2010/12/top-25-nba-player-rankings-for-2010/

And he was top 10 in PER, Winshares, and +/-.
Keep lying to yourself to fulfill your agenda though.


Pau also outplayed Dhoward in the finals... Than the next year dominated KGarnett... He was a top ten player cuz by that time both Duncan and Kg were fading... Pau was also the PLAYER THAT STEPPED UP IN GAME 7'S IN THE PLAYOFFS... MJ SHIT.. The other guy was SCURRRRRRED:roll:

[tmacattack33]

1. Kobe has done less with more. Give Peak Shaq and Phil Jackson to Wade for 5 years and they probably come out with more than 3 rings.


2. The answer to this question is Klay Thompson. He has Golden State undefeated in these playoffs, with Igoudala as his Pippen and Draymond Green as his Rodman.

[tpols]

yup.. dragging pau gasol and lamar odom to a damn near 3peat?

It's unprecedented.

[Dray n Klay]

yup.. dragging pau gasol and lamar odom to a damn near 3peat?

It's unprecedented.


lol Kobe was the one who got dragged, especially in 2010

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe and Hakeem have the two worst rosters in the history of the NBA for b2b champs.

Kobe went to three straight finals with a pedestrian supporting cast.

That's why he's the 2nd GOAT.

[NBASTATMAN]

1. Kobe has done less with more. Give Peak Shaq and Phil Jackson to Wade for 5 years and they probably come out with more than 3 rings.


2. The answer to this question is Klay Thompson. He has Golden State undefeated in these playoffs, with Igoudala as his Pippen and Draymond Green as his Rodman.


KLAY is Kobe and Steph is SHAQ.... Klay putting up Kobe type numbers and winning without the top dog says a lot about KLAY :bowdown:

[ErhnamDjinn]

wouldnt the correct answer be Dirk? 2011 Mavs was a old squad full of talented but past there prime dudes.

[bizil]

Was Pau REALLY a top 10 PF of all time? This can't be real life....

For basketball sake, I'd rather people admit to saying that only to devalue kobe than for people to ACTUALLY believe that shit.

Wow....

I meant in terms of Pau's post game, he's a top ten PF of all time! A legit 7 foot with great footwork and touch down low. I didn't meant he's a top ten PF in general. I was talking STRICTLY about his post game. And I'm not devaluing Kobe at all. If ANYTHING, people are underrating guys like Gasol and Odom.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I meant in terms of Pau's post game, he's a top ten PF of all time! A legit 7 foot with great footwork and touch down low. I didn't meant he's a top ten PF in general. I was talking STRICTLY about his post game. And I'm not devaluing Kobe at all. If ANYTHING, people are underrating guys like Gasol and Odom.


not really..

Kobe detractors talk about Pau as if he was some Dwayne Wade caliber franchise player, when he really was nothing more than a very good all star at his peak.

he made the all star team once before joining the Lakers and hasn't done much since leaving. A great example of how Pau is just "different" now then he was with Kobe is last years playoffs.

He greatly under performed and sat out game he could have/ should have played in.

It gets old when people act like he was something he's not. Look at the bulls front court from the past two years, if that front court was on the Lakers, with Kobe, they'd be considered the best front court in the league. Kobe maximizes post players abilities like no other guard was able to do, people overlook the hell out of that.

[bizil]

not really..

Kobe detractors talk about Pau as if he was some Dwayne Wade caliber franchise player, when he really was nothing more than a very good all star at his peak.

he made the all star team once before joining the Lakers and hasn't done much since leaving. A great example of how Pau is just "different" now then he was with Kobe is last years playoffs.

He greatly under performed and sat out game he could have/ should have played in.

It gets old when people act like he was something he's not. Look at the bulls front court from the past two years, if that front court was on the Lakers, with Kobe, they'd be considered the best front court in the league. Kobe maximizes post players abilities like no other guard was able to do, people overlook the hell out of that.

PLENTY of people underrate Pau! They don't realize he's a top ten PF of all time in terms of his post game. Hell, He MIGHT be a top ten PF of all time in terms of OVERALL SKILL LEVEL at the PF. Even though a guy like Dirk is CLEARLY a better player, Pau is a MORE COMPLETE player. Better defender, better rebounder, better passer, and STILL averaged 18-20 points a night. But similar to Pip at SF, he wasn't an alpha dog scorer.

And Im NOT a Kobe detractor. But I'm not BUYING the argument that Kobe won more with less than any other legend. Especially when u look at the scoring help Kobe had. Pau-Odom-Artest-Bynum is MORE SCORING HELP than MJ EVER had on his title teams. Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points in his two seasons BEFORE he got to LA. He was still in his prime, but he CHOSE to go to LA win rings. Kobe had two 7 footers to dump the ball to.

AND he had Odom, who did many of the same things as Kukoc. MJ SIMPLY didn't have that kind of arsenal backing him scoring wise. A HURT Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what the Bulls had.

[34-24 Footwork]

PLENTY of people underrate Pau! They don't realize he's a top ten PF of all time in terms of his post game. Hell, He MIGHT be a top ten PF of all time in terms of OVERALL SKILL LEVEL at the PF. Even though a guy like Dirk is CLEARLY a better player, Pau is a MORE COMPLETE player. Better defender, better rebounder, better passer, and STILL averaged 18-20 points a night. But similar to Pip at SF, he wasn't an alpha dog scorer.

And Im NOT a Kobe detractor. But I'm not BUYING the argument that Kobe won more with less than any other legend. Especially when u look at the scoring help Kobe had. Pau-Odom-Artest-Bynum is MORE SCORING HELP than MJ EVER had on his title teams. Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points in his two seasons BEFORE he got to LA. He was still in his prime, but he CHOSE to go to LA win rings. Kobe had two footers to dump the ball to.

AND he had Odom, who did many of the same things as Kukoc. MJ SIMPLY didn't have that kind of arsenal backing him scoring wise. A HURT Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what the Bulls had.


Hakeem is the most skilled big man to EVER PICK UP A BASKETBALL. And no, Gasol is NOT IN THAT CONVERSATION when it comes to skill. Gasol is skilled for the era in which he played in, but I could argue that Marc Gasol is more skilled than Pau....let alone Garnett and others.

[Stringer Bell]

Pau was a very good player. Bynum was good when healthy. The Lakers had an excellent frontcourt during their 2009-10 titles.

The championship teams I can think of with the least "stacked" rosters off the top of my head were the 1994 Rockets and 2003 Spurs. Otis Thorpe was solid, the rest were role players, and the backcourt was pretty inconsistent. David Robinson was old, Parker & Ginobili were pretty inexperienced and still had a ways to improve in the NBA game.

[Underrated KD]

No way.

[ImKobe]

PLENTY of people underrate Pau! They don't realize he's a top ten PF of all time in terms of his post game. Hell, He MIGHT be a top ten PF of all time in terms of OVERALL SKILL LEVEL at the PF. Even though a guy like Dirk is CLEARLY a better player, Pau is a MORE COMPLETE player. Better defender, better rebounder, better passer, and STILL averaged 18-20 points a night. But similar to Pip at SF, he wasn't an alpha dog scorer.

And Im NOT a Kobe detractor. But I'm not BUYING the argument that Kobe won more with less than any other legend. Especially when u look at the scoring help Kobe had. Pau-Odom-Artest-Bynum is MORE SCORING HELP than MJ EVER had on his title teams. Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points in his two seasons BEFORE he got to LA. He was still in his prime, but he CHOSE to go to LA win rings. Kobe had two footers to dump the ball to.

AND he had Odom, who did many of the same things as Kukoc. MJ SIMPLY didn't have that kind of arsenal backing him scoring wise. A HURT Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what the Bulls had.

BYNUM AVERAGED 5 and 7 PPG IN THE TWO FINALS HE PLAYED IN LOL...

Artest averaged 11 ppg on 39.8% shooting for the Lakers in the 2010 Playoffs, shot 29% from three. 10.8 PER.

Odom 9.7 ppg, 24% from three in 2010 Playoffs

Derek Fisher was the starting PG :oldlol:

You're acting like Kobe's rosters compare to the Heat teams with Lebron-Wade-Bosh or 2012-16 Spurs or current Warriors..

[bizil]

BYNUM AVERAGED 5 and 7 PPG IN THE TWO FINALS HE PLAYED IN LOL...

Artest averaged 11 ppg on 39.8% shooting for the Lakers in the 2010 Playoffs, shot 29% from three. 10.8 PER.

Odom 9.7 ppg, 24% from three in 2010 Playoffs

Derek Fisher was the starting PG :oldlol:

You're acting like Kobe's rosters compare to the Heat teams with Lebron-Wade-Bosh or 2012-16 Spurs or current Warriors..


Once again, some of u people CAN'T READ PROPERLY!!! I'm talking Bynum and Artest as 4th and 5th scoring options IN COMPARISON to MJ's Bulls 4th and 5th scoring options! Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points his two seasons before he got to LA. He took A LESSER ROLE to win rings!! I would take Artest as a fourth option OVER what the Bulls had. I would take Bynum as a 4th or 5th option over what the Bulls had in that realm. When u are 4th or 5th option, your scoring can take a hit. It can be HARDER to get in a rhythm.

That's all the **** I'm saying, Nothing more... Nothing less. The OP said Kobe won more with less than ANY OTHER legend! Which I DISAGREE with when u have guys like Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum helping with scoring. Even though Bynum was hurt, teams STILL had to watch ou for him. He was ALREADY putting up good numbers in the regular season. I will take a HURT BYNUM EASILY over guys like Wennigton, Longley, Jud, etc.

[bizil]

Hakeem is the most skilled big man to EVER PICK UP A BASKETBALL. And no, Gasol is NOT IN THAT CONVERSATION when it comes to skill. Gasol is skilled for the era in which he played in, but I could argue that Marc Gasol is more skilled than Pau....let alone Garnett and others.

I'm talking about Pau and PF's. I'm not TALKING ABOUT centers! So WHY IN THE HELL are u bringing up Dream and Marc Gasol? Secondly, I NEVER said Pau was the most skilled PF. BUT in terms of OVERALL skill level, I think he's in the top 10 PF's ever.

When u combine his post game, midrange game, passing ability, rebounding, and interior defense, it's NOT A STRETCH AT ALL to say he's among the top ten most skilled PF's ever. I NEVER SAID he's one of the top 10 PF's ever. Peak wise or GOAT wise... I said most SKILLED PF's! Which is a different category!!

[TheMarkMadsen]

PLENTY of people underrate Pau! They don't realize he's a top ten PF of all time in terms of his post game. Hell, He MIGHT be a top ten PF of all time in terms of OVERALL SKILL LEVEL at the PF. Even though a guy like Dirk is CLEARLY a better player, Pau is a MORE COMPLETE player. Better defender, better rebounder, better passer, and STILL averaged 18-20 points a night. But similar to Pip at SF, he wasn't an alpha dog scorer.

And Im NOT a Kobe detractor. But I'm not BUYING the argument that Kobe won more with less than any other legend. Especially when u look at the scoring help Kobe had. Pau-Odom-Artest-Bynum is MORE SCORING HELP than MJ EVER had on his title teams. Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points in his two seasons BEFORE he got to LA. He was still in his prime, but he CHOSE to go to LA win rings. Kobe had two 7 footers to dump the ball to.

AND he had Odom, who did many of the same things as Kukoc. MJ SIMPLY didn't have that kind of arsenal backing him scoring wise. A HURT Bynum was a better 4th or 5th option than what the Bulls had.


Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points in his two seasons BEFORE he got to LA. He was still in his prime, but he CHOSE to go to LA win rings.

who cares what he did two years before? If you're comparing the scoring help Kobe had during these runs, the LOOK AT WHAT HE DID DURING THE RUNS

Artest put up 11 ppg on 39% in 2010..

Kukoc averaged 19ppg one year, but it wasn't with Jordan so that is irrelevant..


Even though a guy like Dirk is CLEARLY a better player, Pau is a MORE COMPLETE player.

again, another irrelevant argument. Who cares if "Pau is more complete" (which he's not, that is actually laughable, Dirk's offensive versatility and dominance shits on Pau. The gap is huge) Dirk is the better player, by a lot. End of discussion. This is as irrelevant as trying to argue that Pippen was a better overall player than Jordan, who cares if he was better at other aspects of the game when Jordan was so, so much further ahead at scoring.



Also, why not bring up how Jordan had elite defensive players at multiple positions in Rodman/Pippen, Kobe never had that type of defense in the post or perimiter from his teammates.. He also never had a player with the playmaking on Pippen when playing with the 08-10 Lakers

[Chadwin]

nope

Hakeem

[riseagainst]

not the only player, but he has alot with very little, which is why he's a top 5 player all time.

[TommyGriffin]

I'm talking about Pau and PF's. I'm not TALKING ABOUT centers! So WHY IN THE HELL are u bringing up Dream and Marc Gasol? Secondly, I NEVER said Pau was the most skilled PF. BUT in terms of OVERALL skill level, I think he's in the top 10 PF's ever.

When u combine his post game, midrange game, passing ability, rebounding, and interior defense, it's NOT A STRETCH AT ALL to say he's among the top ten most skilled PF's ever. I NEVER SAID he's one of the top 10 PF's ever. Peak wise or GOAT wise... I said most SKILLED PF's! Which is a different category!!
Are you on drugs?

[ImKobe]

Once again, some of u people CAN'T READ PROPERLY!!! I'm talking Bynum and Artest as 4th and 5th scoring options IN COMPARISON to MJ's Bulls 4th and 5th scoring options! Artest averaged 20 points and 17 points his two seasons before he got to LA. He took A LESSER ROLE to win rings!! I would take Artest as a fourth option OVER what the Bulls had. I would take Bynum as a 4th or 5th option over what the Bulls had in that realm. When u are 4th or 5th option, your scoring can take a hit. It can be HARDER to get in a rhythm.

That's all the **** I'm saying, Nothing more... Nothing less. The OP said Kobe won more with less than ANY OTHER legend! Which I DISAGREE with when u have guys like Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum helping with scoring. Even though Bynum was hurt, teams STILL had to watch ou for him. He was ALREADY putting up good numbers in the regular season. I will take a HURT BYNUM EASILY over guys like Wennigton, Longley, Jud, etc.

they produced like crap in the Finals... Kobe's only consistent scoring option was Pau

MJ had Pippen and Ron Harper running the offense in the 2nd 3-peat, which took the pressure off him and allowed him to play off-ball, allowing him to get easier buckets in the post, less energy spent on dribble penetration... did Kobe have that luxury? Nope..

look at the 96 Bulls for example..

Ron Harper joined the Bulls after averaging 20 ppg in Cleveland
Kukoc averaged 16/5/5 the previous year, 19/7/5 after MJ retired in 98
Dennis Rodman was the leading rebounder 7 seasons in a row
Pippen averaged 21 ppg the previous season, 17 ppg in the Playoffs in 96

You want to tell me that Kobe had MORE help than that in 2009 or 2010??

Rodman's impact is greater than Bynum's as he was always counted on and healthy during his Bulls stint, Kukoc was a legitimate all-around player that could put up Pippen numbers on his own on another team, Pippen was the 2nd best 2-way SG/SF in the league after Jordan and led the Bulls to 55 wins and 2nd round (Should have made the ECF) without Jordan...

Pippen = Pau
Rodman > Bynum
Kukoc = Artest
Harper > Fisher
Kerr > Farmar/Vujacic

what is your argument, exactly? :oldlol:

[bizil]

they produced like crap in the Finals... Kobe's only consistent scoring option was Pau

MJ had Pippen and Ron Harper running the offense in the 2nd 3-peat, which took the pressure off him and allowed him to play off-ball, allowing him to get easier buckets in the post, less energy spent on dribble penetration... did Kobe have that luxury? Nope..

look at the 96 Bulls for example..

Ron Harper joined the Bulls after averaging 20 ppg in Cleveland
Kukoc averaged 16/5/5 the previous year, 19/7/5 after MJ retired in 98
Dennis Rodman was the leading rebounder 7 seasons in a row
Pippen averaged 21 ppg the previous season, 17 ppg in the Playoffs in 96

You want to tell me that Kobe had MORE help than that in 2009 or 2010??

Rodman's impact is greater than Bynum's as he was always counted on and healthy during his Bulls stint, Kukoc was a legitimate all-around player that could put up Pippen numbers on his own on another team, Pippen was the 2nd best 2-way SG/SF in the league after Jordan and led the Bulls to 55 wins and 2nd round (Should have made the ECF) without Jordan...

Pippen = Pau
Rodman > Bynum
Kukoc = Artest
Harper > Fisher
Kerr > Farmar/Vujacic

what is your argument, exactly? :oldlol:

For starters, HOW IN THE HELL did u leave off Odom from the Lakers???? Kukoc and Odom is the OBVIOUS COMPARISON!!! Which would make Artest the fourth option up against Harper. Give me Artest OVER Harper scoring wise. From there, that leaves Bynum as the fifth option. I would take Bynum over ANY fifth option the Bulls could offer. I'm talking scoring help SPECIFICALLY!!!

Potential wise, Bynum, Artest, and Odom have WAY MORE TO OFFER scoring wise than Toni, Harper, and Kerr. Harper was a shell, Kerr was never a good scorer. Toni AT THAT POINT was the only borderline All Star kind of player of that threesome. Bynum, Artest, and Odom were ALL bordeline All Star caliber with the Lakers.

U can't get caught up a lot with scoring numbers for 3rd to 5th option kind of guys. K Love and Bosh are EXCELLENT EXAMPLES of 24-25 point scorers DROPPING 7-8 points off their scoring average IN AN EFFORT to try to win rings. So the Lakers HAD THE LUXURY of having guys like Odom, Artest, and Bynum in those roles. After the Bulls third option (be it Grant or Kukoc) the scoring potential tailed off MUCH MORE DRASTICALLY than Kobe's Lakers...

[bizil]

Are you on drugs?

Name ten PF's EVER who combined scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense (very effective interior defender) better than Gasol?? If u can't do that, then GO SUCK A DICK!!! I never said Pau was a top 10 PF peak wise or GOAT wise. But in the ALL AROUND sense, he's has a great case as a top ten PF of all time!!

[Round Mound]

:roll: :no: :facepalm :rolleyes: Carried By Shaq for 3 titles . Playing with less? Never happened he had Gasol/Bynum and Odom a Twin Tower System With a Verstaile SF for the next 2 titles.

[mr4speed]

When you are considered top 3-5 player of all time then you take as many shots as possible.

To be honest, only Michael Jordan can have the stamina, endurance and creativity to get that many shots off.

Magic only had one go-to hook and played Point. Kareem had the hook. Larry Bird wasn't very creative in terms of getting shots off.

Kobe and MJ both have a variety of moves and shots...that right there should give Kobe the nod over the speculative 15 players.

It's the laws of diminishing returns. The more you shoot, the more you miss. Nobody attempts a ton of shots and expect their percentage to go up. Doesn't work that way.

Magic only had a hook shot? Bird wasn't creative? Magic was huge in his last few years and Bird as a rookie was the prime reason Boston went from 29 wins to 61 wins. I think Magic and Bird did more than any other players because they turned around the entire interest in the NBA!!