Can prime Pippen shut down prime MJ?

[riseagainst]

if they guarded each other in a game.
On the contrary, can prime MJ guard and shut down prime Pippen?

[Sarcastic]

No.
Yes.

[imdaman99]

Hell no. Jordan would demolish Pip. I'm sure Pippen would make him work, but 9 times out of 10, MJ has his way.

I'm not biased, I hate both these bastards.

[AirBonner]

No and No. MJ will get his. Pippen isn't a prolific scorer but he would still put up his usual stat line.

[3ball]

No and No. MJ will get his. Pippen isn't a prolific scorer but he would still put up his usual stat line.
Over Pippen's career, TONS of guys shut him down who were far worse defenders than Jordan.

For example, Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs.

This included 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals against Detlef Schrempf (worst all-time performance for a 2nd option).. I'm sure Jordan would do better than Detlef.

[AirBonner]

Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - over Pippen's career, TONS of guys shut him down who were far worse defenders than Jordan..

Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals against Detlef Schrempf (worst all-time for a 2nd option).. I'm sure Jordan would do as well as Detlef.
players have bad series all the time. even Jordan :facepalm

[Dr Hawk]

No one can shut down MJ

MJ could shut down Pippen

[3ball]

players have bad series all the time. even Jordan :facepalm
Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - that's 3 playoff runs in a row.

So TONS of guys shut him down who were far worse defenders than Jordan..



players have bad series all the time. even Jordan :facepalm
You think Jordan had poor playoffs series?... Then try this out - list Jordan's very worst playoffs series, and compare them to the worst series of any other all-time great.

If you do this exercise, you'll learn that compared to other players, Jordan never had a poor playoff series..

Keep in mind that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG... think about that for a second - Jordan was on another level

[AirBonner]

Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - that's 3 playoff runs in a row.

So TONS of guys shut him down who were far worse defenders than Jordan..

Btw, you think Jordan had poor playoffs series?... Then try this out - list Jordan's very worst playoffs series, and compare them to the worst series of any other all-time greats.

If you do this exercise, you'll learn that compared to other players, Jordan never had a poor playoff series..
That is the JORDAN effect for you. Making players WORSE.

[3ball]

That is the JORDAN effect for you. Making players WORSE.


Jordan averaged 31 ppg over the same period - that's 14 ppg more than Pippen, while still leading his team in assist percentage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)... :facepalm

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers - EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG for every series.. think about that for a second - Jordan was on another level

(edit: there were 2 series where Jordan "only" led by 7 ppg and 5 ppg... still the goat by a mile)

[FKAri]

Jordan averaged 31 ppg over the same period - that's 14 ppg more than Pippen, while still leading his team in assist percentage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)... :facepalm

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers - EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG for every series.. think about that for a second - Jordan was on another level

(edit: there were 2 series where Jordan "only" led by 7 ppg and 5 ppg... still the goat by a mile)
Sounds like Jordan ball to me. Diminish your teammates. Dominate the ball and statpad yourself. Get hyped by Nike. Let the refs/Stern gift you rings. :lol

[Haymaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8i7XovfquQ

:pimp:

[Poetry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8i7XovfquQ

:pimp:

Yeah, it was 52 points that night at the Scottie Pippen All-Star Classic. I think Pip had 24.

[3ball]

See the 13:30 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enna-TEgE4o

:pimp:

[ClipperRevival]

MJ and Pip played each other thousands of times in practices. They both know what's up. And I think there was a story about how once Pip didn't know any better as a youngster and challenged MJ in practice. MJ then proceeded to rip Pip a new one.

[impulze]

Noone that played in the NBA so far could shut down Jordan. Just can't see it. Maybe get a few blocks here and then but "shut down"? No way.

[kshutts1]

First, it depends on what you mean by "shut down". Are we talking making that player a non-factor? Noticeably worse (20% or so) in ppg and/or FG%? There are many ways to look at it, and my answer changes depending on the scenario.

That said...
Making the other a non-factor:
Neither guy could make the other a non-factor

Noticeably worse (decrease of 20+%) FG%:
I think Pippen would have a better shot of holding Jordan's % down, as Jordan was a volume scorer anyway, so he'd continue to shoot, and to be honest, Pippen's FG% was already somewhat low from time to time.

Noticeably worse PPG:
Jordan would do this to Pippen, for sure. I think Jordan would still get his 30, but going to my above point, I just think he'd shoot more to get it.

Essentially... I think Pippen could turn Jordan in to Kobe or AI, which is obviously not a bad thing, but it's not Jordan.
Jordan would just make Pippen more like... I can't think of a comparison. But essentially a triple double machine (as I think Pip would really look to pass and rebound to make up for his ineffective scoring) with low scoring and %s. Also not a bad thing, but not the Pippen we all know.

[Haymaker]

First, it depends on what you mean by "shut down". Are we talking making that player a non-factor? Noticeably worse (20% or so) in ppg and/or FG%? There are many ways to look at it, and my answer changes depending on the scenario.

That said...
Making the other a non-factor:
Neither guy could make the other a non-factor

Noticeably worse (decrease of 20+%) FG%:
I think Pippen would have a better shot of holding Jordan's % down, as Jordan was a volume scorer anyway, so he'd continue to shoot, and to be honest, Pippen's FG% was already somewhat low from time to time.

Noticeably worse PPG:
Jordan would do this to Pippen, for sure. I think Jordan would still get his 30, but going to my above point, I just think he'd shoot more to get it.

Essentially... I think Pippen could turn Jordan in to Kobe or AI, which is obviously not a bad thing, but it's not Jordan.
Jordan would just make Pippen more like... I can't think of a comparison. But essentially a triple double machine (as I think Pip would really look to pass and rebound to make up for his ineffective scoring) with low scoring and %s. Also not a bad thing, but not the Pippen we all know.

Good breakdown.

[TemporaMutantur]

Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - that's 3 playoff runs in a row.

So TONS of guys shut him down who were far worse defenders than Jordan..



You think Jordan had poor playoffs series?... Then try this out - list Jordan's very worst playoffs series, and compare them to the worst series of any other all-time great.

If you do this exercise, you'll learn that compared to other players, Jordan never had a poor playoff series..

Keep in mind that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG... think about that for a second - Jordan was on another level

Just because his bad games are less in frequency or magnitude relative to others do not render them to be good games; they are still bad games. Dude, how are you this insecure? You're honestly a very fascinating specimen.

Jordan is GOAT, but you're worse than his gambling problem.

[3ball]

Essentially... I think Pippen could turn Jordan into Kobe or AI, which is obviously not a bad thing, but it's not Jordan.


Pippen didn't turn Penny into Kobe or AI.

When Pippen guarded Penny in 1996 ECF, Penny averaged 25.5 ppg on 47% (higher than his RS averages)... And those stats were helped by the times Jordan locked Penny down for part of the series - here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPBWrFBKHKk) showing every possession that Jordan guarded Penny in that series, and he held Penny to 0-5 with 3 TO's.

Quick guards were a mismatch for Pippen, which is why he almost never defended quick guards... Pippen was a great defender on other SF's, but he couldn't stay in front of quick guards or ballhandlers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11762341&postcount=24).





Essentially... I think Pippen could turn Jordan into Kobe or AI, which is obviously not a bad thing, but it's not Jordan.


Turning Michael Jordan into AI isn't a bad thing??... That would be a horrible thing - Jordan would be a dumb, inefficient chucker, instead of a smart, highly efficient player.

Also, it's sheer ignorance of matchups to think that ANY small forward would turn Jordan into AI... Taller SF's like Rodman were a quickness mismatch for Jordan, which is why he averaged 31 ppg on 48% during 1988-1991 playoffs vs. Rodman.. Otoh - shorter, quicker players did much better against Jordan, since they wouldn't get beat by the first step over and over.

[AirBonner]

Pippen didn't turn Penny into Kobe or AI.

When Pippen guarded Penny in 1996 ECF, Penny averaged 25.5 ppg on 47% (higher than his RS averages)... And those stats were helped by the times Jordan locked Penny down for part of the series - here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPBWrFBKHKk) showing every possession that Jordan guarded Penny in that series, and he held Penny to 0-5 with 3 TO's.

Quick guards were a mismatch for Pippen, which is why he almost never defended quick guards... Pippen was a great defender on other SF's, but he couldn't stay in front of quick guards or ballhandlers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11762341&postcount=24).


Turning Michael Jordan into AI isn't a bad thing??... That would be a horrible thing - Jordan would be a dumb, inefficient chucker, instead of a smart, highly efficient player.

Also, it's sheer ignorance of matchups to think that ANY small forward would turn Jordan into AI... Taller SF's like Rodman were a quickness mismatch for Jordan, which is why he averaged 31 ppg on 48% during 1988-1991 playoffs vs. Rodman.. Otoh - shorter, quicker players did much better against Jordan, since they wouldn't get beat by the first step over and over.
Honestly I doubt Jordan at any point in his career could of carried that 2001 Sixers team to the finals.

[3ball]

Honestly I doubt Jordan at any point in his career could of carried that 2001 Sixers team to the finals.
Then you're a dumbass because Jordan was a 6'6" Iverson and better in every way.

Iverson beat Ray Allen's Bucks in 2001 ECF by the skin of his teeth - Jordan would've swept the Bucks, especially with an all-time great rim-protector and DPOY on his team.

Also, Jordan led a worse team to 6 games with the champion Bad Boys in 1989 ECF.

[Dray n Klay]

Then you're a dumbass because Jordan was a 6'6" Iverson and better in every way.

Iverson beat Ray Allen's Bucks in 2001 ECF by the skin of his teeth - Jordan would've swept the Bucks, especially with an all-time great rim-protector and DPOY on his team.

Also, Jordan led a worse team to 6 games with the champion Bad Boys in 1989 ECF.

So Jordan was a 6'6 ballhog cancer who didn't play defense? :confusedshrug:


Sounds about right.

[Dr Hawk]

So Jordan was a 6'6 ballhog cancer who didn't play defense? :confusedshrug:


Sounds about right.

Typical Lebron stan manipulation


Jordan was a 6'6" Iverson and better in every way.

[3ball]

So Jordan was a 6'6 ballhog cancer who didn't play defense? :confusedshrug:


Sounds about right.
athletically, jordan was a 6'6" Iverson (i.e. i'll wait for you to show me Iverson double-pumping from the FT line with ease).

but obviously, jordan's GAME was much different and superior to Iverson's (decision-making and style of play)

[3ball]

Honestly I doubt Jordan at any point in his career could of carried that 2001 Sixers team to the finals.



The GOAT impact on a LOTTERY team



In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So heading into the 1990 season without Jordan, they were a lottery roster and headed nowhere - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 6-peat dynasty.. Can you say, "red pill blue pill"?


Btw, Jordan carried his 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the champs just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals when everyone was hurt.



Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:




"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team

[Showtime80']

Jesus Christ now I've heard it all! At NO POINT in his career was Allen Iverson's inefficient, chucking ball hog as! close to even 1998 Michael Jordan as a player not even in 2001. Half of Michael's basketball IQ and mastery of fundamentals was twice as much as AI had.

The Bulls from 1988 would've been a Finals team in the pathetic East of the early 2000's! The 2001 Sixers were a historically weak Finals team in a weak conference, nothing more nothing less!

[Stringer Bell]

Elite scorers are nearly impossible to "shut down". The best you can do is make them word harder for their points, they'll be less efficient and score less than their average, but they'll still get a pretty good amount of points.

That's the best Pippen, or any defense, would be able to do with Jordan.

The postseason series in which Jordan had the most trouble offensively, he was still far from being "shut down".

He was still scoring a lot, just not as efficient.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html


1996 and 1997 he was arguably past-prime anyway. Or you can say he was in his prime, but past his peak.

[3ball]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html




Your post highlighted the 3 worst playoffs series of Jordan's career:



1993 .ECF:BB. 32/7/6 on 40%

1996 FINALS:. 27/5/4 on 42%

1997 .ECF:BB. 30/8/3 on 39%



Now compare these series to the worst series of Kobe and Lebron - it's not EVEN CLOSE.

Jordan's worst series are FAR better than these guys.. For example, Kobe averaged 15 ppg and Lebron 17 ppg.
.

[Dragonyeuw]

Pip frequently got burned by Penny and Hill, great talents obviously but not in Jordan's class as a scorer. On the flipside, Scottie wasn't really a dominant offensivel player and MJ had the lateral quickness to stay in front of him, turning him mainly into a jumpshooter.

[Dragonyeuw]

Honestly I doubt Jordan at any point in his career could of carried that 2001 Sixers team to the finals.

What exactly did Iverson do in 2001 that prime MJ couldn't replicate or surpass in terms of carrying a team to the finals? More efficient scorer, could facilitate( 11 apg in the 91 finals while scoring 31 points) with lockdown perimeter defense.

[AirBonner]

What exactly did Iverson do in 2001 that prime MJ couldn't replicate or surpass in terms of carrying a team to the finals? More efficient scorer, could facilitate( 11 apg in the 91 finals while scoring 31 points) with lockdown perimeter defense.
He had 9 chances to do it

[f0und]

Honestly I doubt Jordan at any point in his career could of carried that 2001 Sixers team to the finals.

this post belongs in the "dumbest things you've heard on ISH" thread

[Smoke117]

Absolutely.
No.

[L8krH8tr]

no tippin pippen!! fucc him

[Da_Realist]

He had 9 chances to do it

When did he face an East as weak as 2001? Seriously, he couldn't beat VINCE CARTER?

[Prime_Shaq]

No and No.

[pauk]

You think Jordan had poor playoffs series?... Then try this out - list Jordan's very worst playoffs series, and compare them to the worst series of any other all-time great.

If you do this exercise, you'll learn that compared to other players, Jordan never had a poor playoff series..

Keep in mind that no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG... think about that for a second - Jordan was on another level

Jordan had many poor playoff series by his standards.... its you who think Lebron had a poor Finals series last year (36-13-9) because he shot 40% right? Well, Jordan had plenty of series like that... Jordan shot something like ~30 FGA in the playoffs, with plenty of freethrows he would always get ~30 pts despite shooting even 20-30% in some game.... Jordan then had many series where he made bad decisions or turned the ball over sometimes more than he wanted to (despite having a nice statline it still translates to bad outcome especially in key moments).... missed clutch shots, gamewinners... etc...

He was human....

..and comparing his worst playoff series with some other all-time great (like top 10) is kindof shallow considering they were far different players (Centers/PFs) than him and different offensive mindsets (Magic/Lebron/Bird who were far more unselfish/had to facilitate for others)... the only all-time great in that top 10 vicinity similar to Jordans position/role & offensive mindset was Kobe (shoot-first / chuck as much as humanly possible even when you shoot bad).... and yes, he was worse...