Better Passer - Draymond or MJ?

[3ball]

??

[Dray n Klay]

Easily Draymond



MJs rudimentary ball handling capabilities limited his ability to penetrate and create assist opportunities.

[warriorfan]

MJ easily.

Draymond is a good playmaker but his abilities get accentuated playing with Golden State.

As seen in the 2015 finals, teams are willing to concede 3 on 4 sets in the half court in order to impede Curry.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4bYYPLGiZavZr6odQMT2_61HGAc=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3783750/warriorsball.0.gif




More than a third of Draymond Green's assists were hockey assists generated by Stephen Curry.

(Curry leads the NBA in secondary "hockey assists" this season, averaging 2.4). Per 48 minutes, Golden State outscores opponents by 21.8 with Curry on the floor. Though muddled by garbage-time minutes, it's notable that the Warriors have been outscored by 6.8 points per 48 when Curry is off the floor.

Draymond is a good play maker but he gets a huge boost from playing in Golden State with Steph Curry. MJ didn't have that sort of help, he was the driving force of the offense and was responsible for a larger percentage of his teams' distributing.

[3ball]

Easily Draymond



MJs rudimentary ball handling capabilities limited his ability to penetrate and create assist opportunities.

Jordan's passes:


https://media.giphy.com/media/YNeS3G983wJEI/giphy.gif



Draymond's passes:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7qDQWritWW3QlbcQ/giphy.gif



Draymond's 3-point shooting teammates provide him with the greatest spacing ever, so his passes are super-basic.

Otoh, Jordan didn't have spacing, so his passes had to thread needles and were much more difficult.

Plus, Jordan had to score 30 ppg while still leading his team in assists (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. Obviously, he'd average 15 assists if he only needed to score 14 ppg like Draymond.

[Dray n Klay]

3ball had a pre-set copy and paste response before he even created this thread....... :lol

[3ball]

3ball had a pre-set copy and paste response before he even created this thread....... :lol



Warriorsfan was on the case even faster.. :pimp:


https://media.giphy.com/media/E9vWUYOailekU/giphy.gif

[NZStreetBaller]

Mj isnusually better than most players in all catagories lol. Thats why he is goat. Because overall hes the best player ever.

[ScalsFan21]

3ball had a pre-set copy and paste response before he even created this thread....... :lol

:lol :bowdown:

I gotta say though, a part of me semi-admires the dedication. I only agree with him like 25% of the time but he really is the Skip Bayless of ISH, always ruffling feathers of pretty much the whole board outside of Jordan stans, hating on LeBron, and has an unwavering work ethic and drive to prove all of his arguments.

[Spurs m8]

hahha hahah 3ball is a ****ing legend.

Top 3 ISH posters.

Cheers 3 ball!!

[NZStreetBaller]

:lol :bowdown:

I gotta say though, a part of me semi-admires the dedication. I only agree with him like 25% of the time but he really is the Skip Bayless of ISH, always ruffling feathers of pretty much the whole board outside of Jordan stans, hating on LeBron, and has an unwavering work ethic and drive to prove all of his arguments.

Yeah its pretty epic just imagine if he put this work ethic and dedication into something productive like stock market investing or something dude would be a millionaire

[ScalsFan21]

Lol.

Now to answer the question: both are great passers. Michael had the advantage of being more worthy of attracting extra defensive attention, which in turn made finding open teammates a lot easier. This is part of why it's not easy to compare INDIVIDUAL traits of players, especially on offense, since other attributes can directly correlate to increased abilities.

Michael having the ball in his hands is way more dangerous than Green having the ball in his hands, which to me is all that really matters. Whether or not Green is technically a better passer is something that no stat is going to be able to definitively show. The gap is marginal at best in terms of pure passing ability.

[warriorfan]

Warriorsfan was on the case even faster.. :pimp:


https://media.giphy.com/media/E9vWUYOailekU/giphy.gif

we are dedicated to the truth :cheers:

[Dr Hawk]

This thread is an insult to MJ

[ScalsFan21]

we are dedicated to the truth

You guys should go head to head over '96 Bulls vs. today's GSW with this same level of fervor and dedication, if you haven't already. We all know MJ and Curry are two of the GOAT offensive players but... which one is better on that side of the ball :confusedshrug:

Series would go 7, Warriors on top.

[3ball]

This thread is an insult to MJ


I agree... :facepalm

It was too easy pickins

The guy averaged 30/9/11 during his 24-game stretch at point guard (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/), which included 10 triple-doubles in 11 games, documented well here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8M5MoYqC2I).. No contest.. :lol
.

[3ball]

You guys should go head to head over '96 Bulls vs. today's GSW with this same level of fervor and dedication, if you haven't already.


When the Warriors played the Cavs, Lebron's status as a SF allowed Iggy to guard him while Klay stayed on the floor.. But against the Bulls, Iggy can't guard Jordan without Klay either guarding Pippen (mismatch) or sitting on the bench (cripples Warriors' offense).

Of course, Klay is probably a better defender on Jordan than the slower Iggy anyway.. But Klay will get busted up at some point, and Iggy won't be able to spell him without the Warriors' defense being compromised in a way that it was NOT against Cleveland.

So the Warriors don't matchup that well at the wing positions and the Bulls also have a superior, more versatile defense.. Furthermore, they have the best #1 and #2 options (although the Warriors have all the other positions).

But there's one more consideration - the Warriors need the 3-point line to be great - they're nothing without it, or if anything impedes their ability to shoot 3-pointers the same way.. Otoh, the Bulls didn't rely on any one singular aspect to be great - they were just great BASKETBALL players and therefore had greater capacity to excel in any era, regulatory environment, or brand of basketball.
.

[3ball]

Which player is better on offense - Curry or MJ?


Jordan was a FAR better jumpshooter than Curry inside 20 feet:



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga




Ironically, Jordan wouldn't even NEED his goat shooting to be the best in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Derozan, Butler and Wade had sub-par efficiency on 3-pointers and midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11712984&postcount=40) for most of their careers, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ the same way, except he'd have goat midrange shooting, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over the non-shooting Lebron, Westbrick and company.
.

[3ball]

Which player is better on offense - Curry or MJ?



Jordan's 1991 was on another level:



Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991 RS: 42.7 pts.. 8.1 reb..4 7.5 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 3.7 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 60.4 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 WS/48
CURRY 4 2016 RS: 42.5 pts.. 7.7 reb..4 9.4 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 3.0 stl.. 0.3 blk.. 66.9 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.5 PER.. 0.318 WS/48
JORDAN 1991 PO: 41.8 pts.. 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.4 tov... 3.2 stl.. 1.8 blk.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 WS/48



Jordan had higher points-per-possessions (ORtg) and Player Efficiency Rating, even though Curry's efficiency was boosted by carrying a smaller load on both sides of the ball:



....................PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2..... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/)..... 39.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)



Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (winning championship and FMVP), while carrying a bigger load on both ends, which makes efficiency arguments irrevelant..

Not that it matters - Jordan had higher efficiency anyway (Player Efficiency Rating and points-per-possession), while carrying the larger load on both ends.

[3ball]

Which player is better on offense - Curry or MJ?



Jordan was involved in MORE possessions for his team (usage), while producing more per-possession (ORtg) - he simply DID MORE:



1991 vs. 2016:



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% Usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% Usage.. 125 ORtg



Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg


Jordan gave his team MORE (possessions) of a GOOD THING (per possession efficiency)






Curry is more efficient than MJ


Not true - Curry is more efficient on a per SHOT basis, but Jordan was more efficient on a per POSSESSION basis (ortg), which is more important.

Jordan's higher per possession efficiency was due primarily to lower turnovers, but also because his superior midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43) efficiency partially offset Curry's 3-point efficiency.







http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif


Curry spaces the floor


Jordan's spaces the floor more - when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man (see Isiah Thomas above), which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.. This is basketball 101.

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat off their man.

[Dr Hawk]

3ball :applause:

[bigkingsfan]

7.4 assist >

[3ball]

7.4 assist >
Jordan would've averaged 12+ assists if he only needed to score 14 ppg like Draymond.

But he had to score 30 ppg (twice as much) while still leading his team in assists (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49)..

[bigkingsfan]

Draymond would average 20 assist if he held the ball as much as MJ

[3ball]

Draymond would average 20 assist if he held the ball as much as MJ


It's common knowledge that Jordan didn't hold the ball long, but we don't have that data.

Otoh, we DO have data that Jordan averaged more assists in 1989 and for his career, even though he was required to score 30 ppg, compared to Draymond's 14 ppg.

obviously, if he only had to score a measly 14 ppg like Draymond, he'd average many more assists than Draymond.

[bigkingsfan]

As a 3rd option, 7.4 x 3 = 20+ assist

[Dr Hawk]

As a 3rd option, 7.4 x 3 = 20+ assist

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/minecraftstorymode/images/f/fe/Michael-Jordan-laughing-1-.gif

[tragicbronson]

While i respect Draymond and consider him one of the very best defenders in the league, he's huge on that part, he's an overrated offensive player in many ways. There are two types of Draymond's assist, when people double team Warriors' shooters, especially Steph and it's a 3 vs 2 situation and he passes to an open shooter in the corner. The other one is a lob in that same situation. He sometimes has ok passes in the fast break but since he's not that great passer it often results in a turnover and he has plenty of them, about 4 a game if i am right.

[ScalsFan21]

He sometimes has ok passes in the fast break but since he's not that great passer it often results in a turnover and he has plenty of them, about 4 a game if i am right.

Just over 3 a game. I feel like he's admitted that during games of low importance he looks to stat-pad and go for triple-doubles and raw numbers, something that he wouldn't be concerned about if the games were of greater importance. I really find that he rarely makes key mistakes and he does get a good amount of his TO's on non-passing plays, and moving screens. Still, a 3+ TO mark is not a great look.

[ShawkFactory]

None of these passes you're showing are difficult...

They're just dump offs from his penetration