We've never seen how a team does without Lebron

[3ball]

.
2011 Cavs


They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.. :rolleyes:



2015 Heat


In 2014, the Heat's RS record would've placed them at the 4-6 seed out West (3-way tie for the 4-seed).. They were easily the Spurs' worst opponent in those playoffs, since they had a 15-point disadvantage in ORtg against the Spurs (a record), compared to only 3 points, 6 points and 8 points for Mavs, OKC and Blazers, respectively.

Accordingly, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).. The only reason their drop-off seems bigger is because they played in a worst-ever Eastern Conference.

More importantly - Bosh and Wade's prime was over by the time Lebron left - he used up their primes, and then jumped ship like a bitch..



So as you can see, we've never seen how a team would perform without Lebron because each time he jumped ship, half the team ALSO left, or the team had injuries and was past their prime... :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

Why do you indent all of your text?

[90sgoat]

:applause:

[3ball]

Why do you indent all of your text?


It's called an outline format

[AirBonner]

.
2011 Cavs


They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.. :rolleyes:



2015 Heat


In 2014, the Heat's RS record would've placed them at the 4-6 seed out West (3-way tie for the 4-seed).. They were easily the Spurs' worst opponent in those playoffs, since they had a 15-point disadvantage in ORtg against the Spurs (a record), compared to only 3 points, 6 points and 8 points for Mavs, OKC and Blazers, respectively.

Accordingly, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).. The only reason their drop-off seems bigger is because they played in a worst-ever Eastern Conference.

More importantly - Bosh and Wade's prime was over by the time Lebron left - he used up their primes, and then jumped ship like a bitch..



So as you can see, we've never seen how a team would perform without Lebron... :confusedshrug:
The cavs went to the lottery every year Lebron wasn't on the team. What more PROOF do you need.

[ShawkFactory]

It's called an outline format
Why do you do it? It's stupid for this medium

[3ball]

Why do you do it? It's stupid for this medium
I feel like it makes posts easier to read

[j3lademaster]

Why do you do it? It's stupid for this mediumWhy is it stupid? It's more presentable. Would you prefer a wall of text?

[lilteapot]

Why is it stupid? It's more presentable. Would you prefer a wall of text?

None of the stupid bullshit OP's lonely, virgin bitch ass ever posts will ever be presentable.

[riseagainst]

Very well done thread.

OP used nothing but facts and truths to backup his claim.

:applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

'94 & '95 Bulls >>>>>>>>>> '11-'14 Cavs

[BeastMode24]

The cavs went to the lottery every year Lebron wasn't on the team. What more PROOF do you need.

heat are about to make the conference finals without bron. :rockon:

[3ball]

heat are about to make the conference finals without bron. :rockon:



very true - heat will make conference finals without Lebron, while the Bulls couldn't win 2nd Round without Jordan


http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif

[Velocirap31]

Why don't you just refer to regular season W-L records without Lebron. Exact same team without him in those instances.

[AirBonner]

very true - heat will make conference finals without Lebron, while the Bulls couldn't win 2nd Round without Jordan


http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif
What about the first year after they both left? don't want to compare that huh?

[Nash]

Its like 3ball is intent on reminding us of how great Lebron is. :lol

[riseagainst]

Its like 3ball is intent on reminding us of how great Lebron is. :lol


Oh no doubt Lebron is great, we all know that, even 3ball; top 30 player all time.

[Nash]

very true - heat will make conference finals without Lebron, while the Bulls couldn't win 2nd Round without Jordan


http://45.media.tumblr.com/2c20d5e4422cd9b0fe67fdba42dde93d/tumblr_nequ00GLR51u3o7azo1_400.gif
10 Cavs without Shaq and Z= Not Lebron leaving why they had the worst losing streak in nba history.

16 Miami with Dragic, Whiteside, Deng, Joe Johnson, 2 years after(only Wade and Haslem left)= Look how well Miami are doing without lebron


:roll: :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Its like 3ball is intent on reminding us of how great Lebron is. :lol
Yep, never seen a guy devote all his waking hours to Lebron's greatness.
Op,
http://thesource.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/youtherealmvp-300x166.jpg

[3ball]

10 Cavs without Shaq and Z= Not Lebron leaving why they had the worst losing streak in nba history.


The 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.. :rolleyes:





Look how well Miami are doing without lebron


In 2014, the Heat's RS record would've placed them at the 4-6 seed out West (3-way tie for the 4-seed).. They were easily the Spurs' worst opponent in those playoffs, since they had a 15-point disadvantage in ORtg against the Spurs (a record), compared to only 3 points, 6 points and 8 points for Mavs, OKC and Blazers, respectively.

Accordingly, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).. The only reason their drop-off seems bigger is because they played in a worst-ever Eastern Conference.

More importantly - Bosh and Wade's prime was over by the time Lebron left - he used up their primes, and then jumped ship like a bitch..





:roll:

As you can see, we've never seen how a team would perform without Lebron because each time he jumped ship, half the team ALSO left, or the team had injuries and was past their prime

[Hey Yo]

2011 Cavs

They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.
Both Shaq and Z's points avg. combined were surpassed with the Centers that the Cavs used that season. (JJ Hickson and Ryan Hollins)

Delonte West (9ppg in 2010) was traded in the off season to the T-Wolves for Ramon Sessions (13.3ppg with the Cavs)

Mo was traded (13.3ppg) and Daniel Gibson then proceeds to avg. 11.6ppg

[Spaulding]

http://replygif.net/i/1081.gif

[El Gato Negro]

2011 Cavs
They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.
Both Shaq and Z's points avg. combined were surpassed with the Centers that the Cavs used that season. (JJ Hickson and Ryan Hollins)

Delonte West (9ppg in 2010) was traded in the off season to the T-Wolves for Ramon Sessions (13.3ppg with the Cavs)

Mo was traded (13.3ppg) and Daniel Gibson then proceeds to avg. 11.6ppg
People who didn't pay attention to the cavs during those years also seem to forget they went into complete rebuild mode when bran left. Tanking for draft picks for at least two years, realistically 3. It's not like they could lure free agents so the draft was the only way. Now I fully admit they missed on a lot of those picks.

[3ball]

People who didn't pay attention to the cavs during those years also seem to forget the went into complete rebuild mode when bran left. Tanking for draft picks for at least two years, realistically 3.
Exactly, the roster was completely different and the Cavs were tanking.

Each time Lebron left a team, the remaining rosters got a makeover, there were major injuries, and the star players were past their prime and a shell of themselves.

That's what happens to the teams left behind by team-hoppers/colluders: they use up their teammates' prime and then jumpship like a bitch - they just seek the best environment with zero loyalty, integrity, backbone, or honest competitive spirit.

[Hey Yo]

Edited the wrong thing.

[Hey Yo]

Exactly, the roster was completely different and the Cavs were tanking.

Each time Lebron left a team, the remaining rosters got a makeover, there were major injuries, and the star players were past their prime and a shell of themselves.

That's what happens to the teams left behind by team-hoppers/colluders: they use up their teammates' prime and then jumpship like a bitch - they just seek the best environment with zero loyalty, integrity, backbone, or honest competitive spirit.
The players you mentioned that they lost and their 52 combined ppg were surpassed by their replacements that were brought in or who were already there.

try again, post ducker

[The_Pharcyde]

'94 & '95 Bulls >>>>>>>>>> '11-'14 Cavs

yes but the 91,92,93 Bulls won 3 titles
the cavs made 1 finals appearance from 07-10

its not like they both won 3 titles in a row and you can compare their supporting cast to prove who was more vital to their team

man people are so dumb

[aj1987]

.
2011 Cavs


They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011.. :rolleyes:



2015 Heat


In 2014, the Heat's RS record would've placed them at the 4-6 seed out West (3-way tie for the 4-seed).. They were easily the Spurs' worst opponent in those playoffs, since they had a 15-point disadvantage in ORtg against the Spurs (a record), compared to only 3 points, 6 points and 8 points for Mavs, OKC and Blazers, respectively.

Accordingly, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).. The only reason their drop-off seems bigger is because they played in a worst-ever Eastern Conference.

More importantly - Bosh and Wade's prime was over by the time Lebron left - he used up their primes, and then jumped ship like a bitch..



So as you can see, we've never seen how a team would perform without Lebron because each time he jumped ship, half the team ALSO left, or the team had injuries and was past their prime... :confusedshrug:
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

yes but the 91,92,93 Bulls won 3 titles
the cavs made 1 finals appearance from 07-10

its not like they both won 3 titles in a row and you can compare their supporting cast to prove who was more vital to their team

man people are so dumb
exactly

[3ball]

STFU Shaq was old as fvck and the rest of those guys were only decent BECUASE of Lebron. To assume that they would still have that kind of success without him is just dumb and retarded.


No need to get mad - Jordan scored 5 more ppg in the playoffs and 7 more ppg in Finals, on better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg).

There's never been a player that averaged 5-7 more ppg on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.

Jordan's massive scoring and efficiency edge is worth more than Lebron's 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers) 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds).

Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring lead, team-leading passing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), and best-ever defense at his position is the largest load ever carried.
.

[aj1987]

.
THREAD CLIFFS:



Each time Lebron left a team, half the team left with him and/or there were major injuries - the star players were past their prime and a shell of themselves.

Team hoppers and colluders like Lebron leave teams in disarray.. They use up their teammates' prime and then jumpship like a bitch - they just seek the best environment with zero loyalty, integrity, backbone, or honest competitive spirit.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[Hey Yo]

:rolleyes:
and there's the white flag.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7ZnNJJQaJl0/To4NKrQH7DI/AAAAAAAABXE/luITdCPzLEY/s1600/surrenderflag.jpg

[3ball]

and there's the white flag.



What white flag??.. I refuted every single point itt - here's the thread cliffs:



Each time Lebron left a team, half the team left with him and/or there were major injuries - the star players were past their prime and a shell of themselves.

Team hoppers and colluders like Lebron leave teams in disarray by using up their teammates' prime and then jumping ship like a bitch - they just seek the best environment with zero loyalty, integrity, backbone, or honest competitive spirit.

[Hey Yo]

3ball

2011 Cavs
They didn't just lose Lebron - they lost other 2 starters (Shaq, Mo Williams) and 3 more key players (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas) - these guys scored a combined 52 ppg, which is more than half the Cavs points.

So it's ludicrous to disregard the 52 ppg of these guys, and act like Lebron's 30 ppg was the difference in 2011..

Both Shaq and Z's points avg. combined were surpassed with the Centers that the Cavs used that season. (JJ Hickson and Ryan Hollins)

Delonte West (9ppg in 2010) was traded in the off season to the T-Wolves for Ramon Sessions (13.3ppg with the Cavs)

Mo was traded (13.3ppg) and Daniel Gibson then proceeds to avg. 11.6ppg

[3ball]

Both Shaq and Z's points avg. combined were surpassed with the Centers that the Cavs used that season. (JJ Hickson and Ryan Hollins)

Delonte West (9ppg in 2010) was traded in the off season to the T-Wolves for Ramon Sessions (13.3ppg with the Cavs)


Oh, I get it - the Cavs had a completely different roster OUTSIDE of losing Lebron, yet you want to attribute their drop-off entirely to Lebron?

Nice logic and objectivity.. :applause:

Each time Lebron left a team, half the team left with him (2011 Cavs) and/or there were major injuries - the star players were past their prime and a shell of themselves (2015 Heat).

Team hoppers and colluders such as Lebron use up their teammates' prime and then jump ship like a bitch, leaving the team in disarray - they just seek the best environment with zero loyalty, integrity, backbone, or honest competitive spirit.

[warriorfan]

Another thing to take in account is that LeBron-ball teams never get to build chemistry in a free flowing, equal opportunity offense based on movement and passing because they are playing in the LeBron-ball system all of the time.

[3ball]

Another thing to take in account is that LeBron-ball teams never get to build chemistry in a free flowing, equal opportunity offense based on movement and passing because they are playing in the LeBron-ball system all of the time.



Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1) that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple, predictable play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Ultimately, Lebron's reduction of teammates into play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection: MJ's off-ball style got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), so the team plays to capacity and never loses as the favorite, while Lebron's ball-dominance turns teammates into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.

[Born Sinner]

'94 & '95 Bulls >>>>>>>>>> '11-'14 Cavs
What are you even trying to say hear
:roll: