Wade vs Dirk ( My analysis)

[robby712]

I agree that Dirk and Wade are around the same place on the all time great list. However, Wade is the better player and there are 3 reasons why Dirk is even ranked near Wade.
1) Dirk's MVP:
The fact that Dirk has an MVP and Wade doesn't is one of the main reasons why Dirk is ranked higher by some guys here. But to win thr MVP you have to either play at an incredible level, a level above every player in that season, or play a very good season on a 60+ win team and hope no one that plays better than you gets a lot of wins, and if they do, maybe they have a teammate that can snatch a few MVP votes from him. This is why Durant's MVP came when Westbrook got hurt and it was only KD's team.
Now, moving back to Dirk's MVP. Was it his best season? I would argue it was not. Was it an all time great season? Again, the answer is no. Basically, the Mavs where a 60+ win team in the West led by Dirk, a very good team that had just been to the NBA Finals a year prior against an opponent who everyone picked that they will beat. Yes, the Miami Heat, led by a third year Wade, who outplayed the more experienced Dirk on the biggest stage. Dirk and the Mavs blew a 2-0 lead, a double digit lead in the 4th Q of game 3. And don't start with the free throw BS. Outside from a couple of bad calls that happen in a playoff series, there were legit fouls. The Mavs could not defend Wade, Avery Johnson said it at a press conference after game 3 or 4 I believe. Oh, and Dirk, a member of the 50-40-90 club failed to hit 2 FT that would have probably won the series for the Mavs.
Dirk's MVP came when Wade was hurt, James did not have a very good record, and because the Mavs got the nr 1 sees. I am not a Dirk hater, and I agree that he led the Mavs to that 1st seed and he played very good. But let's face it, on an all time MVP list, that season is at the bottom. Wade had a few seasons better than 07 Dirk. Oh, and we all remember what happened in the playoffs that year. I am lazy to search but I don't think there is another guy that won MVP and got taken out of the playoffs in the 1st round, not to mention with the first seed also.

2) Dirk's title.
I won't elaborate much on this. 10-11 playoff run displayed Dirk's greatness and he played very good in the Finals, especially in the 4th Q. As a Heat fan, I remeber it too well. However, we all know that Lebron played like shit. You can't argue that, he even said it. He was supposed to play way better and did not. Had he played better, Dirk would be ringless, and with that awfull 07 playoff run that people tend to ignore for some reason , and for example Lebron's 11 Finals are brought into disscution every time. Had LBJ won MVP and then got eliminated by the 8th seed in the first round, it would be chaos out here. Also, switch coaches in that Mavs - Heat series and the Heat win with ease. It was Spo's first time on a deep playoff run and his first Finals, and he got outcoached badly. So, on top of his great performance , Dirk had a few things that went his way and got the ring. I'm not taking that away from him, because he did play great that post season, I'm just trying to let it sink in that had he lost in the Finals, nobody would put him in the top 30 all time.

[robby712]

3) Dirk's longevity
Dirk has had a very long career, and his production remained very consistent. He does have a good longevity, mostly because he did not have the injuries that Wade had throughout his career. But Dirk is 37, and Wade is 34. There is only 3 years between them. And I would argue that Dirk's first season should not even count, he was mostly on the bench. Meanwhile, Wade led the Heat to the playoffs and to the 2nd round, being their go to guy. As a ROOKIE. There are only a few players in history that came into the league and did what Wade did. I could argue that based on the positions they play, they both have great longevity. There aren't that many guards that can score 38 in the playoffs at age 34.
Dirk is the first guy that really streched the floor at the PF position. He is a great shooter, and in his earlier years, he could also put it on the floor and go to the basket. But that style of play also helped his longevity, being such a well polished shooter helped his body by not taking that much contact. Also, you can't compare his effort with Wade's , a lock down defender even at 34 years old. Dirk is and was a bad defender, he did not have to guard the other team's best player like Wade had to in his prime. Hell, as a 7 footer and with a few more seasons in the league than Wade , Dirk has around 1100 blocks, and Wade around 750. And besides playing more seasons, Wade missed a lot of games with his injuries. As a comparison, Duncan, who entered the league one year prior to Dirk, has around 3000 blocks. 3 times more. You may say it's unfair to compare Dirk to a DPOY and one of the best defenders ever in Tim, but the difference is incredible.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

@dmavs

[FKAri]

I have Wade over Dirk (slightly). I value prime play far more than longevity.

The only value longevity has for me when Im ranking a player is that it gives me a bigger sample size on a player's performance. And so long as it's a couple seasons and shows the guy can play at that level night in and night out then that's good enough for me. What I also value is if a player can perform at a similar level in different circumstances (systems, teammates, teams, coaches).

[keep-itreal]

They're both great, but Wade is better because he was also great on the defensive end

[NBAGOAT]

I have Wade over Dirk (slightly). I value prime play far more than longevity.

The only value longevity has for me when Im ranking a player is that it gives me a bigger sample size on a player's performance. And so long as it's a couple seasons and shows the guy can play at that level night in and night out then that's good enough for me. What I also value is if a player can perform at a similar level in different circumstances (systems, teammates, teams, coaches).

A few counterarguments. Wade has the obvious edge for peak but if you're looking at multiple year primes, Dirk has a decent case(05-07). Also I think Dirk's is pretty close to Wade when it comes to playing in different situations and I think he fit well in most offenses with his shooting.

[houston]

dirk better player than wade

[WayOfWad3]

Something I have also noticed that people haven't caught onto yet is the fact that Wade - in spite of all his injuries and missing the playoffs a couple of times - has now scored more post-season points than Dirk Nowtizki has. Dirk may have the edge in career points, but Wade has been the better post season player between the two.

And @ op, great read. This site really needs this kind of stuff

Edit: It's even arguable that Wade outperformed Dirk in the 2011 finals. Not saying he did, but the argument can certainly be made

[masonanddixon]

LOL this is some seriously low level analysis.

The only postseason in which wade matched Dirk was 05-06 in the most rigged Finals series ever. Let's just ignore Dirk shutting out Gasol, outplaying PRIME Duncan (not the over the hill Duncan Wade-Bosh-lebron faced), and a prime Nash and the Suns squad...

Or the fact Dirk has averaged over 25 and 10 in the postseason (one of four guys in NBA History) and that he's played with far less talents squads than Wade has played with...

Your OP is such a joke it's almost pointless to even respond to...I don't think even wade in his prime could have done what 37 year old Dirk did with this current Mavs squad, and that only further proves why Dirk is the far superior player. Honestly I don't even think the comparison is close; to be Dirk is much better and it's almost an insult to compare Wade to him.

[brain drain]

Something I have also noticed that people haven't caught onto yet is the fact that Wade - in spite of all his injuries and missing the playoffs a couple of times - has now scored more post-season points than Dirk Nowtizki has. Dirk may have the edge in career points, but Wade has been the better post season player between the two.

That's really a result of playing
#1 in the East and
#2 with players like Shaq & Lebron.

Result: more playoff series, more points.
Put Dirk in the Eastern Conference, give him 3 seasons with Shaq & 3 seasons with Lebron and some backcourt player that's roughly on Bosh's level, he'll certainly also have more postseason games and more points.

To have a somewhat fair comparison, only look at seasons where each played without having another All-NBA-player on the team.

Result: Wade has done practically nothing on his own, Dirk has been without any All-NBA teammate since Nash left. Result: 2 finals appearances, 1 championship.



Edit: It's even arguable that Wade outperformed Dirk in the 2011 finals. Not saying he did, but the argument can certainly be made
#1 Dirk was sick,
#2 Miami's prime objective was to stop Dirk, whereas Dallas mainly focused on Lebron, daring Wade to beat them.
#3 Wade had Lebron and Bosh on his team, Dirk mainly had a bunch of has-beens.
#4 Despite having better help and supposedly playing better, Wade lost. Something doesn't figure.
#5 If Wade is such a good defensive player compared to Dirk, how could Terry go off in the finals?

[aj1987]

That's really a result of playing
#1 in the East and
#2 with players like Shaq & Lebron.
1. Wade always plays better against WC teams.
2. Shaq was past him prime and averaged 14 points in the Finals.


Result: Wade has done practically nothing on his own, Dirk has been without any All-NBA teammate since Nash left. Result: 2 finals appearances, 1 championship.
The '09 and '10 Heat teams were beyond terrible. They were significantly worse than any team Dirk has had.



#2 Miami's prime objective was to stop Dirk, whereas Dallas mainly focused on Lebron, daring Wade to beat them.
:oldlol:


#5 If Wade is such a good defensive player compared to Dirk, how could Terry go off in the finals?
Because Terry is a PG and Wade wasn't covering him? He wasn't Wades' defensive assignment.

You do know that Wade has 3 All-Def selections and was 3rd in DPOY voting, right?

[NBAGOAT]

Something I have also noticed that people haven't caught onto yet is the fact that Wade - in spite of all his injuries and missing the playoffs a couple of times - has now scored more post-season points than Dirk Nowtizki has. Dirk may have the edge in career points, but Wade has been the better post season player between the two.

And @ op, great read. This site really needs this kind of stuff

Edit: It's even arguable that Wade outperformed Dirk in the 2011 finals. Not saying he did, but the argument can certainly be made

I mean that's mostly due to 161 games to 145 games. Wade's at 23 ppg for the playoffs Dirk's at 25ppg. The advanced stats are pretty close in the playoffs for the two so I don't think it's that clear cut.

[masonanddixon]

I mean that's mostly due to 161 games to 145 games. Wade's at 23 ppg for the playoffs Dirk's at 25ppg. The advanced stats are pretty close in the playoffs for the two so I don't think it's that clear cut.

One guy has been facing sub 500 teams in the first round while the other is often facing 60 win teams.

The Wade fanboys are disingenuous as hell in this thread.

[NBAGOAT]

One guy has been facing sub 500 teams in the first round while the other is often facing 60 win teams.

The Wade fanboys are disingenuous as hell in this thread.

maybe but that's disingenuous too. Part of the reason you face 60+win teams in the 1st round is your team didn't do so well in the regular season.

[aj1987]

One guy has been facing sub 500 teams in the first round while the other is often facing 60 win teams.

The Wade fanboys are disingenuous as hell in this thread.
2007.

[masonanddixon]

maybe but that's disingenuous too. Part of the reason you face 60+win teams in the 1st round is your team didn't do so well in the regular season.

Not at all. Dallas was a 49 win team back in 13-14 and played the 60+ win Spurs and took them to 7...

a 49 win team would be a 2 or 3 seed in the East.

And at the same time when Dallas was a top 4 seed, it never once faced a sub 500 team. I don't think Wade's even defeated more than six or seven 50 win teams in his career, if I had to estimate off the top of my head.

[Dragonyeuw]

My opinion is wherever you rank one, the other shouldnt be far below. Historically, they're on the same tier of greatness. I made a thread some time ago questioning if Dirk warrants top 15 status. Some great arguments were made in effect to say no he doesn't, but to me the 15-20 spots are very, very close, with the separation coming down to minute details. I think Wade and Dirk historically should be ranked anywhere from 18-22.

[robby712]

My opinion is wherever you rank one, the other shouldnt be far below. Historically, they're on the same tier of greatness. I made a thread some time ago questioning if Dirk warrants top 15 status. Some great arguments were made in effect to say no he doesn't, but to me the 15-20 spots are very, very close, with the separation coming down to minute details. I think Wade and Dirk historically should be ranked anywhere from 18-22.
I agree, I just wanted to point why I believe Wade is better. I think Wade is 15-20 and Dirk is 20-25 all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

I have Wade over Dirk (slightly). I value prime play far more than longevity.

The only value longevity has for me when Im ranking a player is that it gives me a bigger sample size on a player's performance. And so long as it's a couple seasons and shows the guy can play at that level night in and night out then that's good enough for me. What I also value is if a player can perform at a similar level in different circumstances (systems, teammates, teams, coaches).

:facepalm

Dirk's prime is much longer than Wade's while on a similar level... what are you talking about.

[plowking]

:facepalm

Dirk's prime is much longer than Wade's while on a similar level... what are you talking about.

But Wade is clearly better on both the offensive and defensive end. And has won more titles.

[ArbitraryWater]

But Wade is clearly better on both the offensive and defensive end. And has won more titles.

How could that be true... you know that shit isnt true. If it were, people wouldnt rank Dirk above him... people wouldnt even group them in the same tier.

Youre smart enough to see past 'offense = pts/asts', I know that.... Dirk's offense shits on Wade's.

[Collie]

I think in the long run, Wade will really fall through the cracks of history. Even know, many people are starting to forget how good he was pre-Bron. I mean, back when they did the ESPN ranking thing, I saw many people disputing Wade at 27.

Dirk has history on his side. His MVP, his storybook championship, his longevity, his efficiency, his unique game. Back to the ESPN ranking, he was 17. And not many people were against that.

Ultimately, I think Wade will be remembered as a great 1st option who eventually excelled as a 2nd option, but only had a short peak. Dirk will be remembered as the GOAT European player, someone who changed the way big men played basketball, and had almost 20 years of greatness.

[feyki]

I prefer who can hit open lay up .

[aj1987]

How could that be true... you know that shit isnt true. If it were, people wouldnt rank Dirk above him... people wouldnt even group them in the same tier.

Youre smart enough to see past 'offense = pts/asts', I know that.... Dirk's offense shits on Wade's.
How can you spout this retarded shit and say that LeBron is a better offensive player than Kobe?

[Bigsmoke]

?
maybe but that's disingenuous too. Part of the reason you face 60+win teams in the 1st round is your team didn't do so well in the regular season.

Wade is actually 3-1 against 60+ win teams in the playoffs.

[Bigsmoke]

LOL this is some seriously low level analysis.

The only postseason in which wade matched Dirk was 05-06 in the most rigged Finals series ever. Let's just ignore Dirk shutting out Gasol, outplaying PRIME Duncan (not the over the hill Duncan Wade-Bosh-lebron faced), and a prime Nash and the Suns squad...



The Suns were underman and Dirk did not outplay Duncan.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2006-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-spurs.html

Hell, the West wasn't even that good in 2006.

[feyki]

The Suns were underman and Dirk did not outplay Duncan.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2006-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-spurs.html

Hell, the West wasn't even that good in 2006.


:facepalm :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

How can you spout this retarded shit and say that LeBron is a better offensive player than Kobe?

what a failed comparison on your part.. :oldlol:

get ready for your avatar

[Bigsmoke]

:facepalm :facepalm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html


the suns were a 3rd seed with a depleted roster. The spurs and mavericks were the only true title contenders that year for the West.

[feyki]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html


the suns were a 3rd seed with a depleted roster. The spurs and mavericks were the only true title contenders that year for the West.

Second best offence with average defence was not a contender . very interesting .

[aj1987]

what a failed comparison on your part.. :oldlol:

get ready for your avatar
Dirk is not on Wade's tier as an offensive player. Period.

I never welch on my bets.

[Bigsmoke]

Second best offence with average defence was not a contender . very interesting .

They barely got past the Clippers. They werent all that.

They were just a good team that benefited with the West having somewhat of a down year

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk is not on Wade's tier as an offensive player. Period.

I never welch on my bets.

you've said there is hardly a difference, now you're back to saying Dirk is not on Wade's TIER as offensive player, OR DEFENSIVE PLAYER (you didnt literally say it, but we know)....

youre having trouble picking your stance, contrived as a mother****er.

[aj1987]

you've said there is hardly a difference, now you're back to saying Dirk is not on Wade's TIER as offensive player, OR DEFENSIVE PLAYER (you didnt literally say it, but we know)....

youre having trouble picking your stance, contrived as a mother****er.
As far as careers go, Dirk's MVP and longevity put him on part with Wade. As I keep saying, they're basically interchangeable. 17-20 all time. When you consider them as players at their best, Wade is still significantly offensive and defensive player.

Try to keep up, AutisticWater. Can you also post in that Wade LeBron midrange thread?

[tpols]

Dirk is not on Wade's tier as an offensive player. Period.

I never welch on my bets.


all metrics actually show dirk's a tier or two above wade offensively.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade had the better peak while his prime (healthy) was either on par or slightly better than Dirk's.

Which is EXACTLY why LeBron losing in 2011 was embarrassing. Guy shafted Wade along with his ATG supremacy.

[tpols]

just for purpose of this thread ...

Dirk has led a # 1 ranked offense four times in his career. He has led a top 5 ranked offense ten times.

2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2009
2014

^^^ Dirk was the leading scorer, top dog on all those elite offenses


Wade has one single year in his career leading a top 5 offense and it came in 2005 when a still MVP candidate SHAQ joined his squad. This is the offenses Wade has led w/o Shaq or Lebron.

2008 - 30th ranked
2009 - 20th ranked
2010 - 19th ranked
2015 - 21st ranked
2016 - 14th ranked


Offense is not even average .. its pathetic.

Wade's slow, deliberate, prodding style, and lack of spacing are a direct contrast to Dirk's super efficient, quick hitting style w/ ATG spacing. This is why Dirk can lead teams to top 5 offenses w/ guys like Josh Howard as his next best man, while Wade could barely muster a below average rating year in and year out.

[LAZERUSS]

Dirk...somewhere in the Top-20 range.

Wade...somewhere in the Top-30 range. And that is being generous.

[Dragonyeuw]

Ultimately, I think Wade will be remembered as a great 1st option who eventually excelled as a 2nd option, but only had a short peak. Dirk will be remembered as the GOAT European player, someone who changed the way big men played basketball, and had almost 20 years of greatness.

I don't think there's anything 'short' about his peak. 05-13 is an 8 season swing. I think we've been spoiled by guys like Kobe, Duncan, Melo, Garnett, Dirk playing 18+ seasons by coming into the league as teenagers. That's really atypical longevity( you could go back a few years and put guys like Stockton and Malone in that category). We were also robbed of some truly great things in 2007 and 2008 when he was injured. Right after the championship, Wade was putting up 29/7/6 and being considered MVP caliber before his shoulder injury. But it feels like Wade's prime was short because he came into the league at 22. That's almost old by the standards of several other superstars the past 15-20 years.

To me a short peak/prime would be someone like Tmac, from 2001-2008, who was at best promising before that period, and at worst a role player after that period from injuries. Wade was pretty much a superstar from his second season, and is still a star at a point now when alot of people thought he'd be approaching role-player status because of his knees.

[ArbitraryWater]

As far as careers go, Dirk's MVP and longevity put him on part with Wade. As I keep saying, they're basically interchangeable. 17-20 all time. When you consider them as players at their best, Wade is still significantly offensive and defensive player.

Try to keep up, AutisticWater. Can you also post in that Wade LeBron midrange thread?

:roll: :roll: I won't engage in that anymore, you're not worth it. Plus tpols already did a good job.

Link me to the thread

[LAZERUSS]

I don't think there's anything 'short' about his peak. 05-13 is an 8 season swing. I think we've been spoiled by guys like Kobe, Duncan, Melo, Garnett, Dirk playing 18+ seasons by coming into the league as teenagers. That's really atypical longevity( you could go back a few years and put guys like Stockton and Malone in that category). We were also robbed of some truly great things in 2007 and 2008 when he was injured. Right after the championship, Wade was putting up 29/7/6 and being considered MVP caliber before his shoulder injury. But it feels like Wade's prime was short because he came into the league at 22. That's almost old by the standards of several other superstars the past 15-20 years.

To me a short peak/prime would be someone like Tmac, from 2001-2008, who was at best promising before that period, and at worst a role player after that period from injuries. Wade was pretty much a superstar from his second season, and is still a star at a point now when alot of people thought he'd be approaching role-player status because of his knees.

Even in his "peak" years he was missing chunks of seasons. Chunks.

The man has arguably been among the most fragile players in NBA history.

Not only that, but he has finished in the Top-5 in the MVP balloting twice (3rd and 5th.) And in 13 seasons, in the Top-10 eight times.

His career is nowhere near on the level of Dirk's.

A broken down bus-rider.

[robby712]

just for purpose of this thread ...

Dirk has led a # 1 ranked offense four times in his career. He has led a top 5 ranked offense ten times.

2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2009
2014

^^^ Dirk was the leading scorer, top dog on all those elite offenses


Wade has one single year in his career leading a top 5 offense and it came in 2005 when a still MVP candidate SHAQ joined his squad. This is the offenses Wade has led w/o Shaq or Lebron.

2008 - 30th ranked
2009 - 20th ranked
2010 - 19th ranked
2015 - 21st ranked
2016 - 14th ranked


Offense is not even average .. its pathetic.

Wade's slow, deliberate, prodding style, and lack of spacing are a direct contrast to Dirk's super efficient, quick hitting style w/ ATG spacing. This is why Dirk can lead teams to top 5 offenses w/ guys like Josh Howard as his next best man, while Wade could barely muster a below average rating year in and year out.

On some of those teams Wade was the only offense they had. Anyway, what does that has to do with anything? Was Wade the coach of the Heat? The offense is something the coach works on with the players he has. Also, why does that matter? I don't give a shit about having a top 5 offense and then lose in the first round against the 8th seed. I'm not trying to shit on Dirk, but your arguments are pathetic.

[ArbitraryWater]

On some of those teams Wade was the only offense they had. Anyway, what does that has to do with anything? Was Wade the coach of the Heat? The offense is something the coach works on with the players he has. Also, why does that matter? I don't give a shit about having a top 5 offense and then lose in the first round against the 8th seed. I'm not trying to shit on Dirk, but your arguments are pathetic.

Why? The ONLY constant of ALL those teams its Dirk... shits not that hard to figure out.

Yeah, go ahead and push it on Nellie or Avery.. :oldlol:

Dirk has elevated mediocre teams to much greater heights. The complexity of the playoffs is a different animal though.

[LAZERUSS]

On some of those teams Wade was the only offense they had. Anyway, what does that has to do with anything? Was Wade the coach of the Heat? The offense is something the coach works on with the players he has. Also, why does that matter? I don't give a shit about having a top 5 offense and then lose in the first round against the 8th seed. I'm not trying to shit on Dirk, but your arguments are pathetic.

No question Dirk played poorly in that series, but what gets lost in that, was the fact that Dirk carried a cast of clowns...a pathetic POS roster... to a 67-15 record.

[tpols]

On some of those teams Wade was the only offense they had. Anyway, what does that has to do with anything? Was Wade the coach of the Heat? The offense is something the coach works on with the players he has. Also, why does that matter? I don't give a shit about having a top 5 offense and then lose in the first round against the 8th seed. I'm not trying to shit on Dirk, but your arguments are pathetic.

Dirk was leading top offenses w/ Avery Johnson as the coach.. and his teams were pretty poor outside himself as well.

There's a massive gap in their offensive gravities and styles.. w/ overwhelming evidence to back it up.

[Dragonyeuw]

Even in his "peak" years he was missing chunks of seasons. Chunks.

The man has arguably been among the most fragile players in NBA history.

Not only that, but he has finished in the Top-5 in the MVP balloting twice (3rd and 5th.) And in 13 seasons, in the Top-10 eight times.

His career is nowhere near on the level of Dirk's.

A broken down bus-rider.

And yet he's accomplished more than players who have been healthier. Are we measuring by results, or number of games? Because you can pick out any number of players who've played 82 game seasons who haven't done jacks**t in their careers. By the way, I never argued that Wade's had a better career, Dirk clearly has an overall better body of work and I have him ahead of Wade in GOAT rankings. He's not a tier above Wade, however.

[LAZERUSS]

And yet he's accomplished more than players who have been healthier. Are we measuring by results, or number of games? Because you can pick out any number of players who've played 82 game seasons who haven't done jacks**t in their careers.

And what are you claiming as "accomplishments?" Being gifted one ring and FMVP with and endless parade to the FT line, and riding Lebron's coat-tails to two more rings?

Never being considered the best player in the league at any point in his career, and in fact, seldom even a Top-5 player? And sans Shaq and without Lebron...a loser who hasn't done shit?

And the Heat went 47-18 in the games he MISSED forcryingoutloud.

Again...a broken down bus rider.

[Papaya Petee]

Even in his "peak" years he was missing chunks of seasons. Chunks.

The man has arguably been among the most fragile players in NBA history.

Not only that, but he has finished in the Top-5 in the MVP balloting twice (3rd and 5th.) And in 13 seasons, in the Top-10 eight times.

His career is nowhere near on the level of Dirk's.

A broken down bus-rider.
Must be painful that a bus-rider is a better playoff and finals performer than Ilt, with more rings and more playoff points :roll:
30
22
18

now GTFO of this thread grandpa

[LAZERUSS]

Must be painful that a bus-rider is a better playoff and finals performer than Ilt, with more rings and more playoff points :roll:
30
22
18

now GTFO of this thread grandpa

Nowhere near the Finals performer Chamberlain was in his career. Not even remotely close.

Now move along to something you actually know about. Maybe go back to doing your research in your coloring books.

[LAZERUSS]

Gotta love these Wade whackers.

20 years from now people will be asking...Duane who?

[Papaya Petee]

Nowhere near the Finals performer Chamberlain was in his career. Not even remotely close.

Now move along to something you actually know about. Maybe go back to doing your research in your coloring books.
:roll:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/FinalsPerformances-1/greatest-finals-performances-no-1

It's already noon time, you've already woken up at 5AM to go eat at a diner and play Keno, isn't it time for your noon nap grandpa?

[Dragonyeuw]

And what are you claiming as "accomplishments?" Being gifted one ring and FMVP with and endless parade to the FT line, and riding Lebron's coat-tails to two more rings?

Never being considered the best player in the league at any point in his career, and in fact, seldom even a Top-5 player? And sans Shaq and without Lebron...a loser who hasn't done shit?

And the Heat went 47-18 in the games he MISSED forcryingoutloud.

Again...a broken down bus rider.

Wade killed the Mavs as much with the mid-range as he did drives to the basket resulting in fouls in that series. Wade being the aggressor led to that series being called that way. He won a ring. And a FMVP. You can spin it as a gift however you like. One could argue that Dirk was gifted a ring due to Lebron shitting the bed, while also screwing Wade out of a 2nd FMVP. Whatever point you're making about chunks of time lost doesn't change the fact that he's done more in his career than plenty of healthier players.

He was considered top 5 for a number of seasons, top 3 in 2007,2009,2010, 2011 and had more than a few people saying he should have been MVP in 2009 in a year when Lebron was putting up 29/7/7 or whatever his stats were that year. If you want to use the metric of number of seasons being top 5, Dirk doesn't have that outside of 2006, 2007 and 2011. For the first half of the 2000s, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Tmac, and Iverson were all considered better before Dirks name came up. For the second half of the 2000s, Kobe, Wade,Lebron, Duncan,were considered better, and then you had a glut of talents like Chris Paul, Dwight, Durant, who have all occupied top 5 discussion at various points over the past 8 years. Don't act like Dirk has spent much time in 'top 5' discussion either.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Must be painful that a bus-rider is a better playoff and finals performer than Ilt, with more rings and more playoff points :roll:
30
22
18

now GTFO of this thread grandpa

DAMN.

:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade killed the Mavs as much with the mid-range as he did drives to the basket resulting in fouls in that series. Wade being the aggressor led to that series being called that way. He won a ring. And a FMVP. You can spin it as a gift however you like. One could argue that Dirk was gifted a ring due to Lebron shitting the bed, while also screwing Wade out of a 2nd FMVP.

He was considered top 5 for a number of seasons, top 3 in 2007,2009,2010, 2011 and had more than a few people saying he should have been MVP in 2009 in a year when Lebron was putting up 29/7/7 or whatever his stats were that year. If you want to use the metric of number of seasons being top 5, Dirk doesn't have that outside of 2006, 2007 and 2011. For the first half of the 2000s, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Tmac, and Iverson were all considered better before Dirks name came up. For the second half of the 2000s, Kobe, Wade,Lebron, Duncan,were considered better, and then you had a glut of talents like Chris Paul, Dwight, Durant, who have all occupied top 5 discussion at various points over the past 8 years. Don't act like Dirk has spent much time in 'top 5' discussion either.

:biggums:

Get out of here with this "considered" shit and think for yourself, lazy af...

Dirk was top 5 2003-2011, and then 2014 top 6 again, a season Wade never had as good of since 2011.... FOH.

[LAZERUSS]

Wade killed the Mavs as much with the mid-range as he did drives to the basket resulting in fouls in that series. Wade being the aggressor led to that series being called that way. He won a ring. And a FMVP. You can spin it as a gift however you like. One could argue that Dirk was gifted a ring due to Lebron shitting the bed, while also screwing Wade out of a 2nd FMVP.

He was considered top 5 for a number of seasons, top 3 in 2007,2009,2010, 2011 and had more than a few people saying he should have been MVP in 2009 in a year when Lebron was putting up 29/7/7 or whatever his stats were that year. If you want to use the metric of number of seasons being top 5, Dirk doesn't have that outside of 2006, 2007 and 2011. For the first half of the 2000s, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, Duncan, Tmac, and Iverson were all considered better before Dirks name came up. For the second half of the 2000s, Kobe, Wade,Lebron, Duncan,were considered better, and then you had a glut of talents like Chris Paul, Dwight, Durant, who have all occupied top 5 discussion at various points over the past 8 years. Don't act like Dirk has spent much time in 'top 5' discussion either.

Again...Wade has been THIRD and FIFTH in the MVP balloting in his career. TWO times considered a Top-5 player. After that...a 6th, 7th and 8th, with two more 10th's.

Dirk? One MVP, two 3rd's, one 6th, two 7th's, an 8th, and two 10th's.

Not even close.

[Dragonyeuw]

Again...Wade has been THIRD and FIFTH in the MVP balloting in his career. TWO times considered a Top-5 player. After that...a 6th, 7th and 8th, with two more 10th's.

Dirk? One MVP, two 3rd's, one 6th, two 7th's, an 8th, and two 10th's.

Not even close.

So basically since we're using the MVP vote as the penultimate definition here, Dirk has played 18 seasons, and has three instances of being considered top 5: the year he won MVP, and the two 3rd place finishes. Wade has played 13 years, with two top 5 finishes. So relative to number of years played, Wade has a better ratio of top 5:years played than Dirk does using MVP finishes as your criteria. That also means, counting up top 10 finishes, Wade has been a top 10 player 7 out of 13 years or 54% of his career, and Dirk has been a top 10 player 9 out of 18 years, exactly 50%. What isn't close?

Your arguing criteria also dictates that Steve Nash has twice been the best player, and Rose was the best in 2011 ahead of, amongst other players, Dirk. Neither of which is remotely close to being true. By your own logic, Wilt wasn't the best player the year he averaged 50/25.

[aj1987]

all metrics actually show dirk's a tier or two above wade offensively.
Teams, kiddo. As individual players, Wade is a better offensive player than Dirk. Wade played with ATG's, but never had a proper team built to his strengths.


:roll: :roll: I won't engage in that anymore, you're not worth it. Plus tpols already did a good job.

Link me to the thread
Probably because you have no argument, AutisticWater.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12159017

[Dragonyeuw]

:biggums:

Get out of here with this "considered" shit and think for yourself, lazy af...

Dirk was top 5 2003-2011, and then 2014 top 6 again, a season Wade never had as good of since 2011.... FOH.

And your post was even lazier, at least Lazerus is backing up his contention with MVP data, regardless of whether I agree with it. WTF are you doing here? How was Dirk top 6 in 2014? By what metric? All-NBA teams? Didn't make it. MVP votes? Was 14th. Autisticwater indeed.

[kenny817]

Dirk is not on Wade's tier as an offensive player. Period.

I never welch on my bets.

The number 6 scorer of all time is not on Wade's tier offensively?

Lmaaaoooo now I remember why I come here maybe once a week at the most...bunch of morons here

[GimmeThat]

it's about how many players each players have played with. You can say one has remained a professional, and one has played with amateurs (U.S. accent) and professionals.

[jrong]

That's really a result of playing
#1 in the East and
#2 with players like Shaq & Lebron.

Result: more playoff series, more points.
Put Dirk in the Eastern Conference, give him 3 seasons with Shaq & 3 seasons with Lebron and some backcourt player that's roughly on Bosh's level, he'll certainly also have more postseason games and more points.

To have a somewhat fair comparison, only look at seasons where each played without having another All-NBA-player on the team.

Result: Wade has done practically nothing on his own, Dirk has been without any All-NBA teammate since Nash left. Result: 2 finals appearances, 1 championship.


#1 Dirk was sick,
#2 Miami's prime objective was to stop Dirk, whereas Dallas mainly focused on Lebron, daring Wade to beat them.
#3 Wade had Lebron and Bosh on his team, Dirk mainly had a bunch of has-beens.
#4 Despite having better help and supposedly playing better, Wade lost. Something doesn't figure.
#5 If Wade is such a good defensive player compared to Dirk, how could Terry go off in the finals?

#2. Oh, I'm sorry, but bullshit. For example, this Game 3 play is billed as a LeBron highlight, but watch what really happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXJ_upPvBfo
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXJ_upPvBfo)

Keep in mind, this is the third straight game that Wade has been going off at this point. Wade draws three defenders, including not just Marion who is on James but Chandler who is the rim protector. LeBron ends up with an open lane for the tomahawk as a result.

This was representative of how the Mavs defended the Heat once Wade started to take over the series. For good measure, from the same game, here's Wade beating three defenders, two with a behind the back split:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAU0AjxHL18

So don't you dare try to come with your nonsense. I ****ing can't stand intellectual laziness and people who just rely on stock narratives. I trade in evidence and facts.

#5. Ask LeBron. Terry is one of several players who abused him that series (along with Marion and the great J.J. Barea).

[jrong]

double vision

[LAZERUSS]

So basically since we're using the MVP vote as the penultimate definition here, Dirk has played 18 seasons, and has three instances of being considered top 5: the year he won MVP, and the two 3rd place finishes. Wade has played 13 years, with two top 5 finishes. So relative to number of years played, Wade has a better ratio of top 5:years played than Dirk does using MVP finishes as your criteria.

Your arguing criteria also dictates that Steve Nash has twice been the best player, and Rose was the best in 2011 ahead of, amongst other players, Dirk. Neither of which is remotely close to being true. By your own logic, Wilt wasn't the best player the year he averaged 50/25.

Oh, I agree that the MVP balloting is not always reflective of the true best player in the league. Sorry Duncan fans, but Shaq was the best player in the league from '99-04. Wilt was robbed not only in '62, but '64, as well (and a strong case could be that he was robbed in '69 as well.) But at least in Wilt's '62, he finished ahead of the MVP in the First-Team All-NBA voting. And obviously there are other's, as well.

But what we have seen is a clear pattern here. Wade has generally, not even been remotely in the discussions for MVP. It reminds of the Hakeem fans, some of whom rank him as high as Top-5, when he was barely considered a Top-10 player in his own era, in HALF of his career (much less Top-5.)

If you want to argue "peaks", well Wade essentially has '06, '09, and '10. Three years. And not coincidently, all three were basically his healthiest seasons.

But that's the issue. You HAVE to take durability, and longevity into account. My god, Bernard King's "peak" would have a case for Top-10.

[tpols]

Teams, kiddo. As individual players, Wade is a better offensive player than Dirk. Wade played with ATG's, but never had a proper team built to his strengths.

"Teams" arent in a vacuum, pal.. how a team performs is dependant on how a star player plays with his team, and vice versa. They affect one another.

Dirk has led mediocre offensive supporting casts, w/ terrible offensive coaching (avery) to # 1 ranked offenses w/ his ability to space the floor and orchestrate efficient offense not only for himself (his individual productions / efficiencies are better than Wade's), but also for his teammates (spacing, pick setting and non-ball dominance being big here).

I think I am going to put you on the same distribution list Bankaii is currently on, to teach you more about the game.

Check your inbox.

[Dragonyeuw]

Oh, I agree that the MVP balloting is not always reflective of the true best player in the league. Sorry Duncan fans, but Shaq was the best player in the league from '99-04. Wilt was robbed not only in '62, but '64, as well (and a strong case could be that he was robbed in '69 as well.) But at least in Wilt's '62, he finished ahead of the MVP in the First-Team All-NBA voting. And obviously there are other's, as well.

But what we have seen is a clear pattern here. Wade has generally, not even been remotely in the discussions for MVP. It reminds of the Hakeem fans, some of whom rank him as high as Top-5, when he was barely considered a Top-10 player in his own era, in HALF of his career (much less Top-5.)

If you want to argue "peaks", well Wade essentially has '06, '09, and '10. Three years. And not coincidently, all three were basically his healthiest seasons.

But that's the issue. You HAVE to take durability, and longevity into account. My god, Bernard King's "peak" would have a case for Top-10.

But again, asides from 2007 and the two other instances of top 3 finishes, Dirk has been considered outside the top 5 more than inside it. No different from Wade. This is just using MVP voting, since this is a tangible point to argue on.

Dirk's longevity is part of why I rank him higher. Again, I'm not here arguing that Wade deserves to be ranked above Dirk. I'm simply saying that Wade's GOAT rankings shouldn't be that far behind, taking into account the subjectivity of all this.It's really all subjective: there are a few players generally ranked above Dirk who I'd argue didn't necessarily have a definitively better career either.

[ArbitraryWater]

And your post was even lazier, at least Lazerus is backing up his contention with MVP data, regardless of whether I agree with it. WTF are you doing here? How was Dirk top 6 in 2014? By what metric? All-NBA teams? Didn't make it. MVP votes? Was 14th. Autisticwater indeed.

All-NBA teams, MVP votes? :roll: What simpleton am I talking to here....

Dirk took a team of oldies, cast off's, guys that bounced around from team to team to team, to the playoffs and 50 wins in a historically stacked conference!

All that with NO ALL STAR on his team.

Dirk with 24/7/3 on 50/40/90 (speaking of your All-NBA team you lazy ****, this is why you dont judge seasons on it... dont be casual shee), and was exhausted come post-season. No energy.

Numerous clutch exhibitions to carry the Mavericks in perhaps the best West ever to 50 wins and the #7 seed, all time season for his age.

Learn to respect, fool.

[LAZERUSS]

But again, asides from 2007 and the two other instances of top 3 finishes, Dirk has been considered outside the top 5 more than inside it. No different from Wade. This is just using MVP voting, since this is a tangible point to argue on.

Dirk's longevity is part of why I rank him higher. Again, I'm not here arguing that Wade deserves to be ranked above Dirk. I'm simply saying that Wade's GOAT rankings shouldn't be that far behind, taking into account the subjectivity of all this.It's really all subjective: there are a few players generally ranked above Dirk who I'd argue didn't necessarily have a definitively better career either.

:cheers:

I hate these "lists." After about the Top-15, or so, I just give up. You can basically throw a blanket over the next 15-20.

If I were to really take the time, I suspect that Dirk would be somewhere between 20-25, and Wade between 25-30. But I'm sure that there would be legitimate arguments ranking them higher or lower.

BTW, I do respect your opinions. I actually enjoy discussions with knowledgeable posters. Unfortunately, there are very few on this site.

[Wade's Rings]

LOL this is some seriously low level analysis.

The only postseason in which wade matched Dirk was 05-06 in the most rigged Finals series ever. Let's just ignore Dirk shutting out Gasol, outplaying PRIME Duncan (not the over the hill Duncan Wade-Bosh-lebron faced), and a prime Nash and the Suns squad...

Wade didn't match Dirk in '05? '10? '12? '14? '16? He was also better than Dirk in the '06 postseason.

Ironic Dirk fans call that series rigged. Dirk averaged 1 less FTA per game than Dirk during the '06 Playoffs, he was up 2-0 in the series and up 13 with 6:30 left in the 4th quarter of Game 3, Dirk had a 2 game stretch of with 39 total FTA and he was actually averaging more FTAs per game than Wade through the 1st 3 rounds. Dallas in the 4th quarter and OT of Game 5 shot more Free Throws than Miami did. :oldlol:

Wade played the mid 2000s Pistons, J-Kidd/Vince/Jefferson Nets, The '10-'11 Celtics, the Bulls with Peak Rose and an amazing defense, the 2004 Pacers...


Or the fact Dirk has averaged over 25 and 10 in the postseason (one of four guys in NBA History) and that he's played with far less talents squads than Wade has played with...

Your OP is such a joke it's almost pointless to even respond to...I don't think even wade in his prime could have done what 37 year old Dirk did with this current Mavs squad, and that only further proves why Dirk is the far superior player. Honestly I don't even think the comparison is close; to be Dirk is much better and it's almost an insult to compare Wade to him.

:roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

All-NBA teams, MVP votes? :roll: What simpleton am I talking to here....

Dirk took a team of oldies, cast off's, guys that bounced around from team to team to team, to the playoffs and 50 wins in a historically stacked conference!

All that with NO ALL STAR on his team.

Dirk with 24/7/3 on 50/40/90 (speaking of your All-NBA team you lazy ****, this is why you dont judge seasons on it... dont be casual shee), and was exhausted come post-season. No energy.

Numerous clutch exhibitions to carry the Mavericks in perhaps the best West ever to 50 wins and the #7 seed, all time season for his age.

Learn to respect, fool.

LOL. All that energy, and still haven't argued why Dirk was *6th* that year. How did you arrive at that number? Why not 5th? Or 8th? How do you quantify a '6th' ranking. Also, where did you get those stats, beyond per 36? At least make honest arguments, as if I can't look it up as you did.

It's cool, I've already seen enough to know you can't articulate why he's *6th*. Like I said Lazerus was using tangible criteria, MVP ranking, which although I disagreed with can still be used as a valid arguing point. You did nothing of the sort. I could say more, but not worth the energy.

[Dragonyeuw]

:cheers:

I hate these "lists." After about the Top-15, or so, I just give up. You can basically throw a blanket over the next 15-20.

If I were to really take the time, I suspect that Dirk would be somewhere between 20-25, and Wade between 25-30. But I'm sure that there would be legitimate arguments ranking them higher or lower.

BTW, I do respect your opinions. I actually enjoy discussions with knowledgeable posters. Unfortunately, there are very few on this site.

That's generally how I feel. Once you get past the top 10, and to a lesser degree top 15, from 15-25 the separation comes down to very fine details.

Ditto on the respect...:cheers:

[Wade's Rings]

just for purpose of this thread ...

Dirk has led a # 1 ranked offense four times in his career. He has led a top 5 ranked offense ten times.

2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2009
2014

^^^ Dirk was the leading scorer, top dog on all those elite offenses


Wade has one single year in his career leading a top 5 offense and it came in 2005 when a still MVP candidate SHAQ joined his squad. This is the offenses Wade has led w/o Shaq or Lebron.

2008 - 30th ranked
2009 - 20th ranked
2010 - 19th ranked
2015 - 21st ranked
2016 - 14th ranked


Offense is not even average .. its pathetic.

Wade's slow, deliberate, prodding style, and lack of spacing are a direct contrast to Dirk's super efficient, quick hitting style w/ ATG spacing. This is why Dirk can lead teams to top 5 offenses w/ guys like Josh Howard as his next best man, while Wade could barely muster a below average rating year in and year out.

First of all Wade was hurt during the '08 Season but I'm not surprised you would bring that up. The other years he played on one of the slowest paces in the league, with Spo running the offense, and in '09-'10 at best had average offensive players. The Heat were the 7th best offense in '06 with Shaq missing 23 Games, and I'm not even going to look into the numbers without Shaq in '05 but you should already know how well he did without him that year.

:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL. All that energy, and still haven't argued why Dirk was *6th* that year. How did you arrive at that number? Why not 5th? Or 8th? How do you quantify a '6th' ranking. Also, where did you get those stats, beyond per 36? At least make honest arguments, as if I can't look it up as you did.

It's cool, I've already seen enough to know you can't articulate why he's *6th*. Like I said Lazerus was using tangible criteria, MVP ranking, which although I disagreed with can still be used as a valid arguing point. You did nothing of the sort. I could say more, but not worth the energy.

22, my bad.. scrolled down to per 36. Right, I definitely tried to sneak that by you :oldlol: :hammerhead:

Top 6 because I let this shit go through my head once already, and thats where he lands... with only Bron/KD/Paul/Howard/Griffin ahead, and Westbrook due to playoffs which makes it 7, but its uncertain if he could have carried the same Mavericks team as far as Dirk did, while it is certain Dirk would have had more legs under him come post-season alongside KD.

[Wade's Rings]

#2. Oh, I'm sorry, but bullshit. For example, this Game 3 play is billed as a LeBron highlight, but watch what really happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXJ_upPvBfo
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXJ_upPvBfo)

Keep in mind, this is the third straight game that Wade has been going off at this point. Wade draws three defenders, including not just Marion who is on James but Chandler who is the rim protector. LeBron ends up with an open lane for the tomahawk as a result.

This was representative of how the Mavs defended the Heat once Wade started to take over the series. For good measure, from the same game, here's Wade beating three defenders, two with a behind the back split:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAU0AjxHL18

So don't you dare try to come with your nonsense. I ****ing can't stand intellectual laziness and people who just rely on stock narratives. I trade in evidence and facts.

Not to mention Tyson Chandler said Wade was the guy they've focused on stopping before Game 5.


Reporter: The last couple of series before this one we saw LeBron James just take over fourth quarters, finish teams off, Chicago and then Boston. How aware are you guys, how much are you bracing for it and how surprised are you when you don't see that coming the last couple of games?

Chandler: We're definitely aware of him on the floor. He's one of the top players in the game. So we're always going to be concentrating on him. No matter how many points he has going to the fourth quarter, he's always a dangerous player. But we more so concentrate on who has the momentum from the three guys. Wade has been kind of a guy we've had to try to slow down and contain. Each game kind of varies.

[feyki]

They barely got past the Clippers. They werent all that.

They were just a good team that benefited with the West having somewhat of a down year

There was no player to stop Elton Brand in that Suns team . It's like Drive to the basket guys ( Heat,GSW) vs Mavs . Even w/out Amare , Elton Brand was playing volleyball in the paint .

[DMAVS41]

I don't get the debate.

If Wade had Dirk's longevity, consistency, and durability...he'd be ranked over Dirk all time...but he doesn't have that...so I'd imagine Dirk gets the nod at this point on most list...

Although it wouldn't be stupid to put Wade above Dirk or anything like that

It's certainly debatable...

So I have no clue what people are talking about when they say Wade was clearly better offensively (good god just no) or that Dirk was easily better during his extended prime.

The problem with Wade...especially since 2011...has been his health....and with Dirk going strong into year 19...it's hard to give Wade the edge based on having a better peak, but not in a big enough way imo

[tpols]

The other years wade played on one of the slowest paces in the league,

:oldlol:


the 06 and 07 mavs played at the 27th and 28th ranked paced teams in their respective leagues ... and finished as number 1 and number 2 offenses.


and you have nerve to post smilies smh


Wade isnt in the same stratosphere as Dirk offensively .. its like comparing gary payton to steve nash.

[jrong]

the 06 and 07 mavs played at the 27th and 28th ranked paced teams in their respective leagues ... and finished as number 1 and number 2 offenses.


and you have nerve to post smilies smh


Wade isnt in the same stratosphere as Dirk offensively .. its like comparing gary payton to steve nash.

You know this isn't true. Yesterday's game alone evidenced it. Wade can score in every way conceivable, can dominate and hit tough shots in a way that few ever could, and combines it with elite PG passing ability.

Come on, you're better than this.

I think you're a Kobe fan? Other than guarding his place in the pantheon of SGs and all-time-greats, which Wade was never healthy enough to threaten, I've never understood why Kobe fans don't realize that Wade is a tremendous ally. He's the rebuttal to the argument that Shaq carried Kobe to his first three rings. The rebuttal is that Shaq couldn't win without an all-time great two-guard.

[WayOfWad3]

Alright, I wanted an unbiased opinion as to who has been the better player over the years, and this is what I could find:
2K5: Wade-92 Dirk-90
2K6: Wade-96 Dirk-93
2K7: Wade-98 Dirk-97
2K8: Wade-97 Dirk-95
2k9: Wade-96 Dirk-96
2K10: Wade-96 Dirk-83
2K11: Wade-97 Dirk-83
2K12: Wade-96 Dirk-85
2K13: Wade-92 Dirk-84
2K14: Wade-89 Dirk-85
2K15: Wade-86 Dirk-88
2K16: Wade-86 Dirk-84

[tpols]

You know this isn't true. Yesterday's game alone evidenced it. Wade can score in every way conceivable, can dominate and hit tough shots in a way that few ever could, and combines it with elite PG passing ability.

Come on, you're better than this.

I think you're a Kobe fan? Other than guarding his place in the pantheon of SGs and all-time-greats, which Wade was never healthy enough to threaten, I've never understood why Kobe fans don't realize that Wade is a tremendous ally. He's the rebuttal to the argument that Shaq carried Kobe to his first three rings. The rebuttal is that Shaq couldn't win without an all-time great two-guard.

I watch basketball.

I dont give a fk about framing arguments to defend kobe anymore.

Fact is, Wade was nowhere near the offensive force Dirk was.. you want to debate outside offense and the gap is narrowed, but offense, nope.

[WayOfWad3]

I watch basketball.

I dont give a fk about framing arguments to defend kobe anymore.

Fact is, Wade was nowhere near the offensive force Dirk was.. you want to debate outside offense and the gap is narrowed, but offense, nope.
Holy crap dude, both are Legendary offensively, and to say something so stupid is insulting. When has Dirk averaged 30 PPG in a season? Why does Wade average a better FG% when he's giving up 7 inches? Am I saying Wade is the better historic offensive player? No, but I am calling absolute BS on the bolded statement. Dirk=One of the best jump-shooters ever Wade=One of the best slashers ever

[tpols]

Holy crap dude, both are Legendary offensively, and to say something so stupid is insulting. When has Dirk averaged 30 PPG in a season? Why does Wade average a better FG% when he's giving up 7 inches? Am I saying Wade is the better historic offensive player? No, but I am calling absolute BS on the bolded statement. Dirk=One of the best jump-shooters ever Wade=One of the best slashers ever

it has nothing to do with how many ppg someone scored. It's about an individual dynamic that permeates the whole team.

[ArbitraryWater]

Holy crap dude, both are Legendary offensively, and to say something so stupid is insulting. When has Dirk averaged 30 PPG in a season? Why does Wade average a better FG% when he's giving up 7 inches? Am I saying Wade is the better historic offensive player? No, but I am calling absolute BS on the bolded statement. Dirk=One of the best jump-shooters ever Wade=One of the best slashers ever

Its not insulting at all :facepalm

you still dont know the offensive impact Dirk makes :no:


all you know is ppg

[WayOfWad3]

it has nothing to do with how many ppg someone scored. It's about an individual dynamic that permeates the whole team.


bringin up FG when Wade cant shoot a lick from 3 or at the line compared to Dirk.. word.
It most certainly does, I refuted your statement that Wade was never the offensive force that Dirk was and this is your comeback. Just be humble and admit you were wrong.
And I most certainly will bring up Fg%. Dirk is a big man, a 7-footer, he should own Wade in FG% yet Wade has him beat by nearly 2%. Wade is just very efficient offensively, and is the better all-around player. If anything isn't debatable, it's that.
And when/if you respond, admit you were wrong. Again, I am not saying Wade is the better career offensive player (although he very well may be), I am saying you are dead wrong that Dirk is on another level. Isn't passing also a part of offense? If we're talking about individual dynamic that impacts the whole team, assists much be pretty huge, where Wade holds nearly a 4 APG advantage

[WayOfWad3]

Its not insulting at all :facepalm

you still dont know the offensive impact Dirk makes :no:


all you know is ppg
Holy crap you are stupid, did you even read the reason I posted? And I know much more than PPG, but bringing it up doesn't immediately make it all I know. Stop assuming and post something knowledgeable

[ArbitraryWater]

Holy crap you are stupid, did you even read the reason I posted? And I know much more than PPG, but bringing it up doesn't immediately make it all I know. Stop assuming and post something knowledgeable

all the words from your posts are fg% and ppg... you're so far from grasping what makes Dirk special, its not even worth trying to start.

[tpols]

It most certainly does, I refuted your statement that Wade was never the offensive force that Dirk was and this is your comeback. Just be humble and admit you were wrong.
And I most certainly will bring up Fg%. Dirk is a big man, a 7-footer, he should own Wade in FG% yet Wade has him beat by nearly 2%. Wade is just very efficient offensively, and is the better all-around player. If anything isn't debatable, it's that.
And when/if you respond, admit you were wrong. Again, I am not saying Wade is the better career offensive player (although he very well may be), I am saying you are dead wrong that Dirk is on another level. Isn't passing also a part of offense? If we're talking about individual dynamic that impacts the whole team, assists much be pretty huge, where Wade holds nearly a 4 APG advantage

what?

Dirk is a floor spacer, mid / long range player.. using FG to guage his efficiency when hes been twice as efficient from the both the free throw and 3 pt line is borderline retarded.. especially in comparison to a shooting guard, who comparatively cant shoot.



Assists and FG % are your arguments for why a ball dominator is on the same level as a guy who promotes his teammates to do better on their own and play finishes for them.. you have little understanding of the game.

[WayOfWad3]

all the words from your posts are fg% and ppg... you're so far from grasping what makes Dirk special, its not even worth trying to start.
Alright let's start over, what do you think the purpose of my post was? Tpols said that Wade was never even close to how good Dirk was offensively. I disagree, I think at the very least he was close to Offensively. Evidence? He scored more and shot a better percentage, those are the two best stats along with assists. Dirk is absolutely amazing offensively, I won't argue Wade being better; but give Dwyane Wade his due because he has been an absolute offensive beast in his time. 30 PPG is no joke, and if you dismiss it as much then you're clueless.
And "all the words from my posts"? You mean the paragraph I posted? Sorry I don't include every advanced stat and pour all the thought in the world into my iPhone

[feyki]

Holy crap dude, both are Legendary offensively, and to say something so stupid is insulting. When has Dirk averaged 30 PPG in a season? Why does Wade average a better FG% when he's giving up 7 inches? Am I saying Wade is the better historic offensive player? No, but I am calling absolute BS on the bolded statement. Dirk=One of the best jump-shooters ever Wade=One of the best slashers ever

Yes , they are both great offensively . But Dirk was better . I do explain reasons ;

Most pure scoring effect to the game .. Minimum turnovers , higher TS% and on nearly similar volume . Dirk has 10 times 115+ , 5 times 120+ Ortg playoff season in his career .

Wade only has 2 times 115+ and zero 120+ . And that's even with Wade's much higher assists numbers . Think about that w/out assists ..

Dirk's scoring efficiency much much better .

But Wade's prime and peak level was higher than Dirk's . Wade was great defender even as a perimeter player . If he had great longevity like Dirk's , he would above Kobe and one of the top 10 goat in my world .

[Papaya Petee]

I watch basketball.

I dont give a fk about framing arguments to defend kobe anymore.

Fact is, Wade was nowhere near the offensive force Dirk was.. you want to debate outside offense and the gap is narrowed, but offense, nope.

Wade career high in PPG (Regular season) - 30.2
Dirk career high in PPG (regular season)- 26.6
(Wade also had seasons of 27.4, 27.2, and 26.6 PPG, so 4 seasons >= to Dirks best)

Wades career high in PPG (playoffs) - 33.2
Dirks career high in PPG (playoffs) - 27.7
(Wade also had postseason runs of 29.1, 28.4, and 27.5 PPG)

Wades career high in PTS - 55
Dirks career high in PTS- 53

Wade most points in one season - 2386
Dirk most points in one season- 2094

Wade most points in a playoff run- 658
Dirk most points in a playoff run- 620

I'm not even going to get into playmaking and assists, because Wade has always been a great passer and a facilitator while Dirk is a power forward.

You're literally clueless. Wade at his best was a better much better offensive player. Not to mention defense.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade career high in PPG (Regular season) - 30.2
Dirk career high in PPG (regular season)- 26.6
(Wade also had seasons of 27.4, 27.2, and 26.6 PPG, so 4 seasons >= to Dirks best)

Wades career high in PPG (playoffs) - 33.2
Dirks career high in PPG (playoffs) - 27.7
(Wade also had postseason runs of 29.1, 28.4, and 27.5 PPG)

Wades career high in PTS - 55
Dirks career high in PTS- 53

Wade most points in one season - 2386
Dirk most points in one season- 2094

Wade most points in a playoff run- 658
Dirk most points in a playoff run- 620

I'm not even going to get into playmaking and assists, because Wade has always been a great passer and a facilitator while Dirk is a power forward.

You're literally clueless. Wade at his best was a better much better offensive player. Not to mention defense.

Its actually shocking how one can be so in the dark on Dirk's offensive abilities...

seriously.

Dirk routinely led the league in mid-range and TS% with elite post-up numbers, while spacing out the floor, drawing defenders out, opening up lanes and creating havoc with simple PnR's...

His teams had a top 3 offensive rating in crunch time since any team he's played a prominent role on ('01),

Its not even close.

[feyki]

Wade career high in PPG (Regular season) - 30.2
Dirk career high in PPG (regular season)- 26.6
(Wade also had seasons of 27.4, 27.2, and 26.6 PPG, so 4 seasons >= to Dirks best)

Wades career high in PPG (playoffs) - 33.2
Dirks career high in PPG (playoffs) - 27.7
(Wade also had postseason runs of 29.1, 28.4, and 27.5 PPG)

Wades career high in PTS - 55
Dirks career high in PTS- 53

Wade most points in one season - 2386
Dirk most points in one season- 2094

Wade most points in a playoff run- 658
Dirk most points in a playoff run- 620

I'm not even going to get into playmaking and assists, because Wade has always been a great passer and a facilitator while Dirk is a power forward.

You're literally clueless. Wade at his best was a better much better offensive player. Not to mention defense.

I do remember Lazeruss with like those raw stats arguements .

It's totally trash and meaningless . Important point is what players do impact on their teams and how . Dirk was clearly better scorer with far better efficiency .

[jrong]

I do remember Lazeruss with like those raw stats arguements .

It's totally trash and meaningless . Important point is what players do impact on their teams and how . Dirk was clearly better scorer with far better efficiency .

Not clearly better, but I'll concede scoring to Dirk. Wade has a greater offensive arsenal, but Dirk's mastery of both the three-point and foul lines arguably tips that category to him.

And obviously, it follows, that he's the better shooter. And being taller makes him the better overall rebounder, although Wade beats him in offensive rebounds (1.4 o-reb to 1.1 o-reb, career).

But, passing / playmaking? Defense? Ball handling? Not close.

Maybe it's the inherent bias of today's game toward wings, but just by virtue of being a threat to create or himself or others, Wade can control games in ways that Dirk can't. They can both be dominant scorers, but Wade can draw multiple defenders and then create easy scores for teammates with thread-the-needle passes that few point guards can even make. And then he also has the capability to dominate defensively.

Dirk can be as valuable as Wade in some ways on a good team. But, on an inferior team, he's of less value because he can't create for teammates in the same way and he's not going to make game-turning defensive plays.

[feyki]

Not clearly better, but I'll concede scoring to Dirk. Wade has a greater offensive arsenal, but Dirk's mastery of both the three-point and foul lines arguably tips that category to him.

And obviously, it follows, that he's the better shooter. And being taller makes him the better overall rebounder, although Wade beats him in offensive rebounds (1.4 o-reb to 1.1 o-reb, career).

But, passing / playmaking? Defense? Ball handling? Not close.

Maybe it's the inherent bias of today's game toward wings, but just by virtue of being a threat to create or himself or others, Wade can control games in ways that Dirk can't. They can both be dominant scorers, but Wade can draw multiple defenders and then create easy scores for teammates with thread-the-needle passes that few point guards can even make. And then he also has the capability to dominate defensively.

Dirk can be as valuable as Wade in some ways on a good team. But, on an inferior team, he's of less value because he can't create for teammates in the same way and he's not going to make game-turning defensive plays.

In the defensive side , Wade was much better . And he can help defence , protect the rim with 6'4 height and great perimeter defender .

But i don't think he creates more than Dirk on offence to teammates . Wade was better playmaker but can he create oppurtunity for teammates like Dirk ? No , not even close . He was and is poor off ball player rather than Dirk . Dirk was goat level spacing guy . I think Dirk's creating space has much better effects than Wade's attacking the rim and playmaking abilities . And we still see that nowadays . Dirk makes his teammates better while Wade has chemistry problems with his teammates .

But defensive wise , i agree . I was think Wade perfect fit for Lebron cause his defensive force . Heat's best force was that imo , Wade and Lebron . They were like Pippen,MJ on defensive side together .


As a offensive player , i choose Dirk over Wade about with 2-3 +/- margin . It's close . But this with Wade's solid playmaking ability . Only score , Dirk was clearly better in my mind .

[WayOfWad3]

I do remember Lazeruss with like those raw stats arguements .

It's totally trash and meaningless . Important point is what players do impact on their teams and how . Dirk was clearly better scorer with far better efficiency .
Raw stats aren't meaningless. They're definitely not a tell-all, but they are certainly a piece to a bigger puzzle that helps us see the bigger picture. Yeah you've got to be careful, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't even mention them under any circumstance.

[feyki]

Raw stats aren't meaningless. They're definitely not a tell-all, but they are certainly a piece to a bigger puzzle that helps us see the bigger picture. Yeah you've got to be careful, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't even mention them under any circumstance.

Of course , but you can't argue a thing directly with those . My reaction was about that .

[FKAri]

Not clearly better, but I'll concede scoring to Dirk. Wade has a greater offensive arsenal, but Dirk's mastery of both the three-point and foul lines arguably tips that category to him.

And obviously, it follows, that he's the better shooter. And being taller makes him the better overall rebounder, although Wade beats him in offensive rebounds (1.4 o-reb to 1.1 o-reb, career).

But, passing / playmaking? Defense? Ball handling? Not close.

Maybe it's the inherent bias of today's game toward wings, but just by virtue of being a threat to create or himself or others, Wade can control games in ways that Dirk can't. They can both be dominant scorers, but Wade can draw multiple defenders and then create easy scores for teammates with thread-the-needle passes that few point guards can even make. And then he also has the capability to dominate defensively.

Dirk can be as valuable as Wade in some ways on a good team. But, on an inferior team, he's of less value because he can't create for teammates in the same way and he's not going to make game-turning defensive plays.

Basically.

I'd give iso scoring to Dirk but overall offensively I might give it to Wade. Wade has a greater ability to put pressure on the defense allowing teammates to score.

[masonanddixon]

Basically.

I'd give iso scoring to Dirk but overall offensively I might give it to Wade. Wade has a greater ability to put pressure on the defense allowing teammates to score.

lmao, as evidenced by what? He's never done anything when he wasn't surrounded by superstars, and even now he's on a better team than Dirk has ever had and he's struggling against the freaking Raptors.

Whereas Dirk made guys like Josh Howard and Jason Terry into all stars or all star level players---guys who would be the 8th-9th man on any other team.

[Papaya Petee]

Its actually shocking how one can be so in the dark on Dirk's offensive abilities...

seriously.

Dirk routinely led the league in mid-range and TS% with elite post-up numbers, while spacing out the floor, drawing defenders out, opening up lanes and creating havoc with simple PnR's...

His teams had a top 3 offensive rating in crunch time since any team he's played a prominent role on ('01),

Its not even close.
Im not dark on Dirks offensive abilties, because hes a great offensive player, but at their best prime for prime Wade is simply on another level.
Wait, I'm talking to a troll

[GrapeApe]

Interestingly, Dirk's 2007 MVP might have been Wade's if he didn't get hurt. Up until the all-star break he was averaging roughly 29/8/6 on 50% with a 30+ PER and elite defense. He was playing every bit as good as he was in his 2006 playoff run, maybe better. It's a shame we were robbed of a year and a half of his absolute prime. He would have been a monster in 2008.

I think Wade and Dirk's all-time ranking are pretty interchangeable. Arguments can be made for either one being ranked slightly above the other. Both are top 20 imo.

[Pointguard]

the 06 and 07 mavs played at the 27th and 28th ranked paced teams in their respective leagues ... and finished as number 1 and number 2 offenses.

and you have nerve to post smilies smh

Wade isnt in the same stratosphere as Dirk offensively .. its like comparing gary payton to steve nash.
'06 You have no case. Wade outscored Dirk by 14 ppg in the finals after spotting him 2 games. Wade totally took over his teams offense in that series. No way can Dirk can be in another stratosphere as Wade when he got dominated, a very complete domination, by Wade. We never see that by principal scorers against each other. Much less when the dominated had one of his best years ever.

In '07 it was way too fragile to be using it in an argument just like '06 was.

[Wade's Rings]

the 06 and 07 mavs played at the 27th and 28th ranked paced teams in their respective leagues ... and finished as number 1 and number 2 offenses.


and you have nerve to post smilies smh


Wade isnt in the same stratosphere as Dirk offensively .. its like comparing gary payton to steve nash.

You literally only responded to 1 part of my post but ignored the other 95% of it.

[dankok8]

I would take Wade at his peak over Dirk but Dirk has had a better career. He's much more durable.