Lebron's "all-round" argument vs. Jordan is pure bs

[3ball]

.
During his playoff career, Lebron averages 2.5 more defensive rebounds than Jordan (less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 more assists (with more turnovers).

Who prefers THAT, over Jordan scoring 5.5 more points on better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg)??.... and clutch

Jordan also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammates' field goals - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).

Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest load ever carried.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Dude Lebron doesn't even lead his team in scoring and they made the ecf.

Comparisons are over, Pippen would never outscore Jordan while leading the team in scoring to make the ecf.

You don't need to keep doing this

[FKAri]

Why do people bring up Jordan? They're not even similar players.Compare Lebron to Magic if anyone. Kobe's the one who should be compared to Jordan.

[livinglegend]

Cavs would lose in the first round with Jordan instead of Lebron.
Jordan has never shown that he can win a playoffs series without Pippen.
He is 1-9 without him. He would be a career loser without him.

[PP34Deuce]

Why do people bring up Jordan? They're not even similar players.Compare Lebron to Magic if anyone. Kobe's the one who should be compared to Jordan.

I agree. Any time he gets positive press people try to bring him down.

He's not Jordan but early on he could dominate a basketball game scoring anytime he wanted.

As he's gotten older, he's become Magic 2.0 with better defense and athleticism.

[3ball]

Kobe's the one who should be compared to Jordan.


Kobe shouldn't be compared either - Jordan didn't just "score more" than Kobe and Lebron.. He scored WAAAY more... Specifically:



No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers......... EXCEPT Jordan, who led his team in scoring BY AT LEAST 10 PPG for every series of his career - let that sink in (edit: there were 2 series where Jordan only led by 7 ppg and 5 ppg).


Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest load ever carried.

[tmacattack33]

2.5 rebounds is a pretty sizeable amount. It's a 50% increase over MJ's 5 rebounds per game.

Furthermore, Lebron's rebounding and ability to play in the paint was the only reason Miami could have won the year Bosh went down. It was also a big deal when Kevin Love went down last year.

Additionally, Lebron's playmaking was huge when Kyrie was out last year.

Given all the injuries in today's game, the ability of Lebron to adapt to his team's holes has been crucial and would be on pretty much any team today.

LOL at the thought of Rodman or Horace Grant going down with an injury on those Bulls teams and MJ stepping into the paint to replace them.

[rfoster14]

Cavs would lose in the first round with Jordan instead of Lebron.
Jordan has never shown that he can win a playoffs series without Pippen.
He is 1-9 without him. He would be a career loser without him.

Oh, you mean the first 3 years in the league when Jordan was still learning and was forced to play an all-time great team in the first round twice in Larry Bird's Celtics? Not to mention he had no good players on his team? 3 years in the league without Pippen is hardly enough of a sample size to determine that he wouldnt have ever done shit without Pippen. You really think Jordan would lose to this shitty ****in Hawks team? Youre a dumb ****. Go kill yourself lol

[GrapeApe]

Oh, you mean the first 3 years in the league when Jordan was still learning and was forced to play an all-time great team in the first round twice in Larry Bird's Celtics? Not to mention he had no good players on his team? 3 years in the league without Pippen is hardly enough of a sample size to determine that he wouldnt have ever done shit without Pippen. You really think Jordan would lose to this shitty ****in Hawks team? Youre a dumb ****. Go kill yourself lol

He's just trolling OP, who constantly spams this board with the same garbage over and over.

[PP34Deuce]

Oh, you mean the first 3 years in the league when Jordan was still learning and was forced to play an all-time great team in the first round twice in Larry Bird's Celtics? Not to mention he had no good players on his team? 3 years in the league without Pippen is hardly enough of a sample size to determine that he wouldnt have ever done shit without Pippen. You really think Jordan would lose to this shitty ****in Hawks team? Youre a dumb ****. Go kill yourself lol

Let's have fun and Flip it. I'd argue that Lebron would have lead those old Chicago teams further than Jordan did. Even Doug Collins talked about how Michael only passed if it was the last resort. There's all these intangibles when guys touch the ball. The magic and bird effect.

Lebron would have been their best athlete, playmaker,scorer, and versatile enough to play with different lineups and get everyone involved.

[WayOfWad3]

This is probably one of the most irrelevant topics you could come up with at this point in time

[bizil]

Why do people bring up Jordan? They're not even similar players.Compare Lebron to Magic if anyone. Kobe's the one who should be compared to Jordan.


I agree! MJ and Kobe were epic alpha dogs AND epic all around players in one. Bron is of that cloth too, but he's more versatile because of his size. PLUS Bron looks to pass first as well. In terms of size, skillset, numbers, and athletic ability, I think he's more similar to these legends:

- Magic: (similar height, epic passing ability, triple double threat, similar positional versatility on offense)

- Big O (triple double threat, can average 30 points a night while being a pass first player)

- Pip (point forward shit, similar defensive versatility)

- Dr. J(freak athletic alpha dog SF, dominates scoring without being a great shooter, prefers the one foot takeoff for dunks, covers ground in the open court like Doc.)

- Mailman (6'8 and a chiseled 250-260 pounds like Malone)

- Bird (SF he's compared the most too in term of greatness, similar IQ in many ways, numbers wise in terms of points-dimes-boards is the most similar to Bird.)

[inclinerator]

weak era for mj

[3ball]

LOL at the thought of Rodman or Horace Grant going down with an injury on those Bulls teams and MJ stepping into the paint to replace them.


That's what Jordan did in 1997 playoffs because Rodman was MIA:



Rodman was banged up and only averaged 8.4 rebounds for the ENTIRE 1997 playoffs, so Jordan went down low and picked up the slack with 7.9 rebound average, higher than Pippen's 6.8.


In the 1997 playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in points, assists, steals, blocks..... and nearly rebounds (7.9 to Rodman's 8.4).

Lebron cannot match this - anytime he was anywhere NEAR this, he let a role player score 10 ppg more than his normal average and get FMVP.. So Jordan led his team in every category AND didn't let his man go off for FMVP.





Lebron's playmaking was huge when Kyrie was out last year.



Jordan led his team in passing too - he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals:



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:



Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced



Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:



Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced






2.5 rebounds is a pretty sizeable amount. It's a 50% increase over MJ's 5 rebounds per game.


Answer this question - do you prefer Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers) over Jordan's 5.5 more points on better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg)??

Be real - there's never been a #1 option that scored 5-6 more ppg on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.

Also, there's DEFENSE - Lebron let a role player score 10 ppg more than his normal average and get fmvp.... TWICE...

So Jordan scored 5.5 more ppg on better efficiency, AND played far better defense.. His performance was far superior all-round.

[inclinerator]

mj would be kobe in his spot and kobe would be mj in his spot

[Marchesk]

I got Julius Erving tbh.

[3ball]

Lebron would have been their best athlete, playmaker, and scorer


Lebron's massive scoring deficit (5.5 ppg) on worse efficiency across the board isn't offset by his 1.0 assist edge (with higher turnovers) and 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with more turnovers).

So sorry.... "flipping" things doesn't work here and doesn't work MOST of the time - it makes things backwards.

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron's massive scoring deficit (5.5 ppg) on worse efficiency across the board isn't offset by his 1.0 assist edge (with higher turnovers) and 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with more turnovers).

So sorry.... "flipping" things doesn't work here and doesn't work MOST of the time - it makes things backwards.

Continously copy and paste stats stats. Mr Morey there's no reaching you.

Flipping the situation gives a less biased agenda. Those Bulls teams pre first 3 peat had scorers that weren't fed the ball unless forced to because Jordan had no shot to score. Lebron would maximize that team because of his versatility and all around ability to carry less talented teams. The 5.5ppg differential could be made up with better ball movement.

Bring on your copy paste Mr Morey. I'm ready.

[RRR3]

MJ=poor mans DeRozan

[3ball]

I'd argue that Lebron would have lead those old Chicago teams further than Jordan did.

There's all these intangibles when guys touch the ball. The magic and bird effect.



Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)



CONTINUED IN NEXT POST.....

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST.....



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE


Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)


Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)



FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)

[AirBonner]

.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST.....



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE


Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)


Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)



FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)
How do you explain JR Smith?

[90sgoat]

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]2.5 rebounds is a pretty sizeable amount. It's a 50% increase over MJ's 5 rebounds per game.

/QUOTE]

2.5 defensive rebounds is literally nothing. Defensive rebounds are a team effort and something players grab 9/10 by default. The real test of rebounding skill has always been offensive rebounds, in which Jordan - a guard - beats Lebron and that is honestly embarassing for Lebron.

[stalkerforlife]

Dude Lebron doesn't even lead his team in scoring and they made the ecf.

Comparisons are over, Pippen would never outscore Jordan while leading the team in scoring to make the ecf.

You don't need to keep doing this

:lol

OP has serious issues.

Literally no one actually believes Bran is even close to Jordan.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

The only aspect of the game Lebron is better than MJ is is transition.

[3ball]

How do you explain JR Smith?


an exception..... which MAKES MY POINT

by definition, exceptions prove the existence of a NORM, which is that lebron reduces his teammates apg (playmaking), while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing).

[NBAGOAT]

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]2.5 rebounds is a pretty sizeable amount. It's a 50% increase over MJ's 5 rebounds per game.

/QUOTE]

2.5 defensive rebounds is literally nothing. Defensive rebounds are a team effort and something players grab 9/10 by default. The real test of rebounding skill has always been offensive rebounds, in which Jordan - a guard - beats Lebron and that is honestly embarassing for Lebron.

but offensive rebounding is affected by era. Thanks to coaches like pop and stan van gundy, the trend in the NBA now is to go back on defense to prevent fastbreaks instead of going for offensive rebounds. It's kind of like steals, there's a price for getting them.

[90sgoat]

[QUOTE=90sgoat]

but offensive rebounding is affected by era. Thanks to coaches like pop and stan van gundy, the trend in the NBA now is to go back on defense to prevent fastbreaks instead of going for offensive rebounds. It's kind of like steals, there's a price for getting them.

Yes, but again, MJ was a guard meaning he would not be in rebounding position most of the time on defense. Lebron grabs 1.6 contested defensive rebounds to 5.6 uncontested.

Not really impressive.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

87-93 Jordan, with the intangibles and refined in-between game, was at least a tier above LeBron at his best.

LeBron is with the Duncan's, Bird's and Magic's IMO. Still amazing. Comparing him to Mike though just does him a disservice. No other perimeter player comes really close.

[sportjames23]

The only aspect of the game Lebron is better than MJ is is transition.


Transitioning from loser to colluder, yes.