Is everything we do subconsciously motivated by reprodructive success?

[Heilige]

DO you believe everything a man does is ultimately related to getting access to reproductive success/access to lots of women to have sex with?




Van der Dennen: Sex and the powerful male sex drive existed on this earth millions of years before humans evolved some sense and sensibility. Every sexual act involves some retrogression, in which empathy, reason, etc. are temporarily suspended. This is valid, I think, not only for powerful men.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa from the University of Canterbury found out that successful men have more sex and more sexual partners. Is it an evolutionary adaptive behavior?

Van der Dennen: Not only Kanazawa, but dozens of studies have found this relationship. An interesting evolutionary analysis of the power-sex-polygyny link was presented in 1986 by Laura Betzig in her book "Despotism and Differential Reproduction: A Darwinian View of History." With unbridled enthusiasm, powerful males have used their power in the service of reproductive success.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What do you think these men must be thinking about themselves in the moment when they are about to have "forbidden" sex?

Van der Dennen: It is not too speculative to think that powerful men live in a sexualized or eroticized world. Not only do they expect to have sex whenever they fancy, but they also expect that every woman is always willing to provide this service, and enjoy it. They are completely egocentric and opportunistic and just take what they want. It probably comes as a complete surprise when somebody does not comply. The forbiddenness, and the awareness of transgression, makes the sex even more attractive.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You do not mean to say that everybody who climbs to the top is at risk of becoming a rapist?

Van der Dennen: Not necessarily. Most powerful men do not need to rape because they have consensual sex much more frequently than their more unfortunate brethren. That does not preclude that some powerful men might do it for "kicks," or to see if they can get away with it. Virtually all studies of rape show that it is powerless and disenfranchised young men who rape.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What's needed to feel powerful: is social status enough? Or money, too? Fame?

Van der Dennen: Power is omnivorous, as it were. Power tends to correlate with wealth and fame and success and with sexual access to more, and more varied, partners. The only thing that is really needed for you to feel powerful is my submission, and vice versa.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/sex-and-power-powerful-men-have-an-overactive-libido-a-765316.html



Do you feel men attempt to gain status and resources to get women? Is it about passing your genes on in the end and reproducing?

[UK2K]

Yes. I'd live in a studio apartment with no furniture if I could get laid in that.

But I can't so I buy things that women find attractive. That's how men work.

Dave can put it better than I can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8vZEF4UA0

[Heilige]

Yes. I'd live in a studio apartment with no furniture if I could get laid in that.

But I can't so I buy things that women find attractive. That's how men work.

Dave can put it better than I can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8vZEF4UA0


What about people like Steph Curry, Tom Brady, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Donald Trump,etc?

Once they have money/success they keep pushing, working hard, etc. They already could have tons of women and fulfill their reproductive goals yet they keep pushing? If it's about access to women in the end, why do they keep going forward?

[UK2K]

What about people like Steph Curry, Tom Brady, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Donald Trump,etc?

Once they have money/success they keep pushing, working hard, etc. They already could have tons of women and fulfill their reproductive goals yet they keep pushing? If it's about access to women in the end, why do they keep going forward?

Because our instincts (some of us anyway) have developed over millions of years. At the beginning of man, the BEST hunter, the biggest hunter, the fastest runner, the whatever, always got first choice when it came to making babies.

That drive to succeed, to be the best, is because our ancestors 100 generations ago were doing the same thing to try and get laid. It's in our blood.

[~primetime~]

Single men...'most' of what they do probably is in an effort to attract women.

I have a wife w/2 kids...I'm done trying to attract females...these days I want nice things because I legitimately like nice things. If suddenly every female on the planet vanished, I would still prefer to live in a nice home and drive nice cars.

When you're younger you care less about that...I would have slept on the floor of a buddy's apartment no problem...When your older you realize living like a bum isn't preferable.

[Heilige]

Because our instincts (some of us anyway) have developed over millions of years. At the beginning of man, the BEST hunter, the biggest hunter, the fastest runner, the whatever, always got first choice when it came to making babies.

That drive to succeed, to be the best, is because our ancestors 100 generations ago were doing the same thing to try and get laid. It's in our blood.


Why do people try to deny this information though? It's like men are ashamed to admit that their drive to have success is in part about getting tons of *****.

[Tarik One]

I'm too much in love with myself...

[Heilige]

Single men...'most' of what they do probably is in an effort to attract women.

I have a wife w/2 kids...I'm done trying to attract females...these days I want nice things because I legitimately like nice things. If suddenly every female on the planet vanished, I would still prefer to live in a nice home and drive nice cars.

When you're younger you care less about that...I would have slept on the floor of a buddy's apartment no problem...When your older you realize living like a bum isn't preferable.


When you were single was most of what you did in an effort to attract lots of women?

[StephHamann]

There were many great man who died as virgins.

Friedrich Nietzsche is the first example that comes to my mind.

[falc39]

What about people like Steph Curry, Tom Brady, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Donald Trump,etc?

Once they have money/success they keep pushing, working hard, etc. They already could have tons of women and fulfill their reproductive goals yet they keep pushing? If it's about access to women in the end, why do they keep going forward?

All those people are extremely competitive. I believe competition between others does have roots from mating with the opposite sex and in survival. Sure, they may not desire it directly now that they are rich but our evolution has been shaped by these factors which has led for us to develop that competitive desire.

[UK2K]

All those people are extremely competitive. I believe competition between others does have roots from mating with the opposite sex and in survival. Sure, they may not desire it directly but our evolution has been shaped by these factors which has led for us to develop that competitive desire.

This.

We may not realize it, but that's where the drive ultimately comes from.

[DCL]

it's pretty true when you're young or single

[~primetime~]

When you were single was most of what you did in an effort to attract lots of women?
'most' is probably accurate I would say...yes

Women were (and still are) on my mind every hour of every day. Ultimately I wanted to fck every decent looking woman on the planet. And I think that is true with most men.

NOW, that I have a wife and two sons, my motives for everything are rooted in keeping them alive, healthy, and happy, making sure they will be equipped in life without me, etc. (which all makes sense from a survival standpoint as well)

Everything changes once you have kids, what you want in life, how you view things, what fears you have, everything, it's all different.

[UK2K]

'most' is probably accurate I would say...yes

Women were (and still are) on my mind every hour of every day. Ultimately I wanted to fck every decent looking woman on the planet. And I think that is true with most men.

NOW, that I have a wife and two sons, my motives for everything are rooted in keeping them alive, healthy, and happy, making sure they will be equipped in life without me, etc. (which all makes sense from a survival standpoint as well)

Everything changes once you have kids, what you want in life, how you view things, what fears you have, everything, it's all different.

But you still wonder what that chick in marketing looks like naked.

Try working where I do, where the average age is 28-30.

[~primetime~]

But you still wonder what that chick in marketing looks like naked.

Try working where I do, where the average age is 28-30.
Yes, a lust for hot women does not go away with kids.

It just slooooooowly diminishes with age :(

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

No.

[Dresta]

No, not really. Young men, sure; when older it becomes more about ego, and vanity. It matters more that people see a pretty woman on your arm than that you're actually f*cking her; in truth, sex is repetitive, boring, overrated, and largely a waste of time (not to mention the time spent chasing sex).

Real talk. You get bored of sleeping around as much as you do sleeping with one woman--there is something unpleasant about the human psyche which makes what you don't have that much more appealing than what you do have. But experience teaches you that this is largely illusory; desire is stronger than the satisfaction of desire; saturation never makes you feel good in the long run.

Distinction and status are also important motivating factors, but these are not simply about sex, but also about the preservation of the bloodline; the instinct to protect is clearly there as much as the instinct to spread the seed. Biologically, status is far more heritable than we like to pretend, considering most human systems have been naturally inclined towards caste distinctions.

[Heilige]

No, not really. Young men, sure; when older it becomes more about ego, and vanity. It matters more that people see a pretty woman on your arm than that you're actually f*cking her; in truth, sex is repetitive, boring, overrated, and largely a waste of time (not to mention the time spent chasing sex).

Real talk. You get bored of sleeping around as much as you do sleeping with one woman--there is something unpleasant about the human psyche which makes what you don't have that much more appealing than what you do have. But experience teaches you that this is largely illusory; desire is stronger than the satisfaction of desire; saturation never makes you feel good in the long run.

Distinction and status are also important motivating factors, but these are not simply about sex, but also about the preservation of the bloodline; the instinct to protect is clearly there as much as the instinct to spread the seed. Biologically, status is far more heritable than we like to pretend, considering most human systems have been naturally inclined towards caste distinctions.


I am still a virgin at the moment.

I heard Isaac Newton and Telsa were virgins for life.

[falc39]

No, not really. Young men, sure; when older it becomes more about ego, and vanity. It matters more that people see a pretty woman on your arm than that you're actually f*cking her; in truth, sex is repetitive, boring, overrated, and largely a waste of time (not to mention the time spent chasing sex).

Real talk. You get bored of sleeping around as much as you do sleeping with one woman--there is something unpleasant about the human psyche which makes what you don't have that much more appealing than what you do have. But experience teaches you that this is largely illusory; desire is stronger than the satisfaction of desire; saturation never makes you feel good in the long run.

Distinction and status are also important motivating factors, but these are not simply about sex, but also about the preservation of the bloodline; the instinct to protect is clearly there as much as the instinct to spread the seed. Biologically, status is far more heritable than we like to pretend, considering most human systems have been naturally inclined towards caste distinctions.

I kind of agree with you about the realities of the actual action of having sex, but from what I understand, the question posed by the OP is more encompassing as he mentions reproductive success, which to me includes protecting as a stage of it. I would think that bloodline definitely falls under that category as you can't really have bloodline to preserve until you reproduce.

To me it all really boils down to survival; reproduction being a very large part of survival. Even after reproducing offspring, we do as much as we can to ensure that they have a good life. Fame, status, are tied to survival and reproduction as they allow us to live a better life and also have better choice in who we can reproduce with. Only when we are satisfied with survival (and sex) can we begin to really not be motivated by it. But even then we will still biologically be wired that way and I doubt it is something that can be completely ignored.

To those mentioning notable people who are virgins, I am a believer that sexual transmutation is real and that sexual energy can be harnessed and used for other purposes. I think that is the case for a lot of people who simply suck at attracting the opposite sex. Just because you can't get a girl does not mean you have strong sexual desires.

[Heilige]

I kind of agree with you about the realities of the actual action of having sex, but from what I understand, the question posed by the OP is more encompassing as he mentions reproductive success, which to me includes protecting as a stage of it. I would think that bloodline definitely falls under that category as you can't really have bloodline to preserve until you reproduce.

To me it all really boils down to survival; reproduction being a very large part of survival. Even after reproducing offspring, we do as much as we can to ensure that they have a good life. Fame, status, are tied to survival and reproduction as they allow us to live a better life and also have better choice in who we can reproduce with. Only when we are satisfied with survival (and sex) can we begin to really not be motivated by it. But even then we will still biologically be wired that way and I doubt it is something that can be completely ignored.

To those mentioning notable people who are virgins, I am a believer that sexual transmutation is real and that sexual energy can be harnessed and used for other purposes. I think that is the case for a lot of people who simply suck at attracting the opposite sex. Just because you can't get a girl does not mean you have strong sexual desires.


I am a 30 year old virgin. How do you use sexual transumtation? I heard of it but no one really explains the process and how you go about it? How did Isaac Newton, Tesla, Nietzsche use sexual transmutation?

Also, are you a virgin and do you use it?

[Dresta]

I kind of agree with you about the realities of the actual action of having sex, but from what I understand, the question posed by the OP is more encompassing as he mentions reproductive success, which to me includes protecting as a stage of it. I would think that bloodline definitely falls under that category as you can't really have bloodline to preserve until you reproduce.

To me it all really boils down to survival; reproduction being a very large part of survival. Even after reproducing offspring, we do as much as we can to ensure that they have a good life. Fame, status, are tied to survival and reproduction as they allow us to live a better life and also have better choice in who we can reproduce with. Only when we are satisfied with survival (and sex) can we begin to really not be motivated by it. But even then we will still biologically be wired that way and I doubt it is something that can be completely ignored.

To those mentioning notable people who are virgins, I am a believer that sexual transmutation is real and that sexual energy can be harnessed and used for other purposes. I think that is the case for a lot of people who simply suck at attracting the opposite sex. Just because you can't get a girl does not mean you have strong sexual desires.
Perhaps, but the wording in the op suggests the primacy of sexual desire/ that as the major motivator of human impulses. Even under the broader scope you outline, however, it cannot be what motivates everything, subconsciously or otherwise.

There are many historical instances not just of individuals willingly destroying themselves and their bloodline for some other (in their eyes "higher') purpose, but of whole peoples doing so. The people of Saguntum after being defeated by Hannibal Barca, for example, committed suicide en masse rather than be subjected to Carthaginian rule; there are multiple other examples of similar instances, but I can't remember the names off-hand. Many peoples have been willing to succumb to virtual extinction for such things as honour; there are many, many instances of peoples suffering mass extermination and enslavement for concepts as unexplainable by evolutionary biology as the right to live under one's own laws. Today, we won't even risk the big bad bogeyman of "economic shocks" for such a thing (see: UK, and the fear campaign being run against EU exit, a campaign that will probably work).

It seems that the more we believe we are governed by the dictates of biology, evolutionary impulses, and self-interest, the more we in fact are bound down by such things. I do think this kind of fits with the Christian idea that the beginning of wisdom stems from the fear of God, whereas fear of Man is the consummation of folly; man, when he fears God, does remarkable things, and is inclined more towards higher endeavour in service to God, producing things that seem wholly superfluous and unnecessary when it comes to human survival and propagation (just look at all art and culture until recently); whereas without God, man tends to fear man, which leads to omnipresent cravenness; I personally think we have become far more cowardly as religion has receded; that we fear far more in life, despite there being far less to fear than there ever has been.


Though (viewed biologically) this can perhaps all be categorised under the innate religious impulse/ need for transcendence, but that would imply that such a thing is necessary for human survival, and that such higher beliefs are even more important for human survival than the desire for procreation and family. Then again, proving such a thing, either way, is more or less impossible; so again, it comes down to the choice of how you want to see/interpret the world.

[Heilige]

Perhaps, but the wording in the op suggests the primacy of sexual desire/ that as the major motivator of human impulses. Even under the broader scope you outline, however, it cannot be what motivates everything, subconsciously or otherwise.

There are many historical instances not just of individuals willingly destroying themselves and their bloodline for some other (in their eyes "higher') purpose, but of whole peoples doing so. The people of Saguntum after being defeated by Hannibal Barca, for example, committed suicide en masse rather than be subjected to Carthaginian rule; there are multiple other examples of similar instances, but I can't remember the names off-hand. Many peoples have been willing to succumb to virtual extinction for such things as honour; there are many, many instances of peoples suffering mass extermination and enslavement for concepts as unexplainable by evolutionary biology as the right to live under one's own laws. Today, we won't even risk the big bad bogeyman of "economic shocks" for such a thing (see: UK, and the fear campaign being run against EU exit, a campaign that will probably work).

It seems that the more we believe we are governed by the dictates of biology, evolutionary impulses, and self-interest, the more we in fact are bound down by such things. I do think this kind of fits with the Christian idea that the beginning of wisdom stems from the fear of God, whereas fear of Man is the consummation of folly; man, when he fears God, does remarkable things, and is inclined more towards higher endeavour in service to God, producing things that seem wholly superfluous and unnecessary when it comes to human survival and propagation (just look at all art and culture until recently); whereas without God, man tends to fear man, which leads to omnipresent cravenness; I personally think we have become far more cowardly as religion has receded; that we fear far more in life, despite there being far less to fear than there ever has been.


Though (viewed biologically) this can perhaps all be categorised under the innate religious impulse/ need for transcendence, but that would imply that such a thing is necessary for human survival, and that such higher beliefs are even more important for human survival than the desire for procreation and family. Then again, proving such a thing, either way, is more or less impossible; so again, it comes down to the choice of how you want to see/interpret the world.


Do you believe in the concept of sexual transmutation? If so, do you think Isaac Newton, Tesla, and Nietzsche used it?

Also, have you watched this before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jRUBzyFzbU

[DingDengDong]

No to the initial question. The obvious evidence of this is people without the ability to have children or have sex don't immediately kill themselves and continue on with their lives.

[JohnnySic]

When I make a cheese sandwich am I subconsciously motivated by reproductive success?

[NumberSix]

No. Reproduction is one of the strongest human drives, but not the only and not the strongest.

[falc39]

Perhaps, but the wording in the op suggests the primacy of sexual desire/ that as the major motivator of human impulses. Even under the broader scope you outline, however, it cannot be what motivates everything, subconsciously or otherwise.

There are many historical instances not just of individuals willingly destroying themselves and their bloodline for some other (in their eyes "higher') purpose, but of whole peoples doing so. The people of Saguntum after being defeated by Hannibal Barca, for example, committed suicide en masse rather than be subjected to Carthaginian rule; there are multiple other examples of similar instances, but I can't remember the names off-hand. Many peoples have been willing to succumb to virtual extinction for such things as honour; there are many, many instances of peoples suffering mass extermination and enslavement for concepts as unexplainable by evolutionary biology as the right to live under one's own laws. Today, we won't even risk the big bad bogeyman of "economic shocks" for such a thing (see: UK, and the fear campaign being run against EU exit, a campaign that will probably work).

It seems that the more we believe we are governed by the dictates of biology, evolutionary impulses, and self-interest, the more we in fact are bound down by such things. I do think this kind of fits with the Christian idea that the beginning of wisdom stems from the fear of God, whereas fear of Man is the consummation of folly; man, when he fears God, does remarkable things, and is inclined more towards higher endeavour in service to God, producing things that seem wholly superfluous and unnecessary when it comes to human survival and propagation (just look at all art and culture until recently); whereas without God, man tends to fear man, which leads to omnipresent cravenness; I personally think we have become far more cowardly as religion has receded; that we fear far more in life, despite there being far less to fear than there ever has been.


Though (viewed biologically) this can perhaps all be categorised under the innate religious impulse/ need for transcendence, but that would imply that such a thing is necessary for human survival, and that such higher beliefs are even more important for human survival than the desire for procreation and family. Then again, proving such a thing, either way, is more or less impossible; so again, it comes down to the choice of how you want to see/interpret the world.

Good points. I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

Here's a question for anyone...

I always found it interesting how we use the same word "beauty" or "beautiful" to describe people we sexually desire and other things like great works of art. Is this by coincidence or is there some link? Is beauty that which is related to art derived from the sexual realm or vice versa? After all, the great artists and poets were known to be incredibly sexual beings. A lot of the great works are well known to be inspired by a female. Does the same mechanism in our biology that govern sexual desire play a role in how we perceive art or the need produce art? I am not saying that art is completely primal, more just questioning if there is a link.

[~primetime~]

Good points. I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

Here's a question for anyone...

I always found it interesting how we use the same word "beauty" or "beautiful" to describe people we sexually desire and other things like great works of art. Is this by coincidence or is there some link? Is beauty that which is related to art derived from the sexual realm or vice versa? After all, the great artists and poets were known to be incredibly sexual beings. A lot of the great works are well known to be inspired by a female. Does the same mechanism in our biology that govern sexual desire play a role in how we perceive art or the need produce art? I am not saying that art is completely primal, more just questioning if there is a link.
definitely SOME of it...but also definitely not ALL of it.

[warriorfan]

What about people like Steph Curry, Tom Brady, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Donald Trump,etc?

Once they have money/success they keep pushing, working hard, etc. They already could have tons of women and fulfill their reproductive goals yet they keep pushing? If it's about access to women in the end, why do they keep going forward?

It's part obsession and part addiction that over their lifetime is molded into their innermost personalities. Constantly striving and working to win and be the best from sun up to sun down is all they know at this point.

[shlver]

When I make a cheese sandwich am I subconsciously motivated by reproductive success?
So simple but compelling. I think survival is a larger encompassing drive rather than reproductive success; of course, they are not mutally exclusive. If parents do not survive, then their young will not survive especially amongst mammals.
In today's society, a good career and income are the modern survival proxies to athleticism, strength and hunting ability.

[HylianNightmare]

Yes. I'd live in a studio apartment with no furniture if I could get laid in that.

But I can't so I buy things that women find attractive. That's how men work.

Dave can put it better than I can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8vZEF4UA0


Yep, I but the dumbest shit cause women think it's cute

[ILLsmak]

I think a lot of it is the world. They want to paint this picture of the alpha male who everyone wants to be, probably to sell products. So, in that way, people do want to get women, or at least be able to get women.

I also think there is a huge pool of 'kinda attractive' people in the world that are always trying to do these things.

What amazes me is when you have two actually attractive people, how it unfolds. Because the world has few actually attractive people, it seems like it's pretty much predetermined when you put two attractive people together, no matter what the background of each is... and no matter what the relationship status of each is.

So, yea people are motivated by sex, but that sort of drive is just for people who want to stand out by society's standards. However, the actual desire to reproduce in a person, when faced with an attractive member of the opposite sex, especially when it's both ways, is something that will overcome nearly everything, in my opinion.

-Smak