Dishonest stat-keepers MANUFACTURED John Stockton's legacy!

[CuterThanRubio]

There have been many discussions in the past few days about the necessary criteria and credentials to be named one of the best point guards in league history, and these debates have produced some OUTRAGEOUS claims!

John Stockton and Mark Price have been name dropped on countless occasions, and their supporters swear that they would transform into the paleskinned Curry and Damian Lillard if they were playing today.

That reminded me of an old thread that dissected the assist differential between home and road games, and I recall Stockton getting a HEALTHY DOSE of home cooking, so I decided to investigate further and my suspicions have been confirmed!

First I'm going to list the assist differential for the top ten assist leaders, excluding 0scar 0berts0n because his numbers aren't available, and they are probably too scandalous to report in the first place, 60s basketball is an illusion.

1. Stockton +.8

2.Kidd +1.

3.NASH -.4

4. Mark Jackson +.7

5. Magic +.8

6. 0scar = Garbage

7. Isiah Thomas +.9

8. GP +.3

9. Andre Miller +1.

10. Rod Strickland +.4

BONUS: CP3 +.7

Now I know you may think that a few tenths of a percentage point are meaningless but consider that equates to 559 MORE home assists for Stockton in TWO LESS games.

That doesn't seem legitimate to me.

Take a look at Steve Nash's splits, he played 19 more home games and managed 75 less assists there, whats going on with that?

Now let's take a look into the KARL MALONE factor!

He averaged 25 points per game over the course of his career.

Stockton averaged a 50% assist ratio

So MALONE was responsible for AT LEAST 6 of his assists per game, and that is only on average, Malone was scoring in the late 20s and peaked at 31, can you imagine how many assists were gifted to Stockton during those years?

Malone has TWO most valuable player awards, if Stockton was responsible for the success of Utah's system wouldn't he be the guy winning awards?

Malone made Stockton, and dishonest stat-keepers INFLATED his numbers!

Take another look at Nash's differential, NEGATIVE at home, yet he is 3rd all time, there is NO DOUBT in my mind who the greatest passer and pre-Curry era pure point guard is, stats don't lie!

[riseagainst]

his assists are a little over valued, since he played with Malone.

but his steals are nothing to laugh at. That's just ridiculous.

[NBAGOAT]

Agree with some of your points. However you're using assist ratio wrong, it just says half the time a teammate scores, it was off a stockton assist. Even if you assume half of Malone's buckets were off Stockton assist swhich I'm pretty sure they weren't, it's more like 4-5. Malone got a lot of iso post ups while other guys on the Jazz had more assisted buckets so it's most likely less.

[DoctorP]

Stock was a machine of consistency.

[CuterThanRubio]

Agree with some of your points. However you're using assist ratio wrong, it just says half the time a teammate scores, it was off a stockton assist. Even if you assume half of Malone's buckets were off Stockton assist swhich I'm pretty sure they weren't, it's more like 4-5. Malone got a lot of iso post ups while other guys on the Jazz had more assisted buckets so it's most likely less.

No

Divide 25 by two

Then divide that number by two again/

6.25

Malone actually averaged more than 25 on the Jazz, his last season pulled his average down a little, so you can safely assume he was responsible for more than my estimations.

[NBAGOAT]

malone had usually 9-10 fg's a year usually. You divide that by 2 if you're assuming half his buckets come off stockton assists and it's still more like 4-5.

[IcanzIIravor]

What is with the disrespect to Stockton that I am seeing on the board?

[CuterThanRubio]

malone had usually 9-10 fg's a year usually. You divide that by 2 if you're assuming half his buckets come off stockton assists and it's still more like 4-5.


Did you forget the premise of the thread already?

DISHONEST stat-keepers inflated Stockton's totals regardless of what the actual numbers were.

The fact that Malone was putting up major points allowed them to tally up a few extra without seeming suspicious.

[NBAGOAT]

Did you forget the premise of the thread already?

DISHONEST stat-keepers inflated Stockton's totals regardless of what the actual numbers were.

The fact that Malone was putting up major points allowed them to tally up a few extra without seeming suspicious.

why are you assuming they only tally up extra assists on non malone plays.

[Young X]

Have you ever factored in that Stockton's teammates shot the ball better at home than on the road?

[CuterThanRubio]

why are you assuming they only tally up extra assists on non malone plays.


They tally them up at their own discretion!

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

^Read that before typing more uninformed nonsense!

[FKAri]

CP3 gets the most generous assists I have seen in the last 30 years.

Have you ever factored in that Stockton's teammates shot the ball better at home than on the road?
This

[CuterThanRubio]

Karl Malone averaged 25 points at home and on the road.

I considered this already.

[Dro]

What is with the disrespect to Stockton that I am seeing on the board?
Anything to prop up Curry, but Curry doesn't need it...

[Marchesk]

Imagine if Stockton had won 2 MVPs in the 90s during Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone's prime.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg

[CuterThanRubio]

Imagine if Stockton had won 2 MVPs in the 90s during Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone's prime.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg

He never could have, because he wasn't as good as Nash.

Nash is the best passer ever and is largely responsible for how the game is played today, get over it!

There is a reason Steve was on stage during Curry's MVP speech.

The torch has been passed!

[FKAri]

Imagine if Stockton had won 2 MVPs in the 90s during Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone's prime.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg
Stockton could never have done what Nash did with the Suns when Amare went down. Stockton needed a scorer along side him always. Nash needed finishers.

[senelcoolidge]

Stockton was an excellent shooter...he could have scored so much more but he was the epitome of selfless as a point guard.

[Smoke117]

k tell me moar

[Showtime80']

The league ALTERED THE RULES to make life easier for players like Nash and Curry! Just ask Steve Kerr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

Stockton played in the land of the giants against Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq etc... And held his own in a lethal and physical era.

Nash in the 1980's is not a top 20 players and would've been coming of the bench for ANY of the title winners in that decade!

[Sarcastic]

So basically you're making assumptions about games you never even watched? Show some video proof of Stockton getting assists he didn't deserve.

[Stringer Bell]

They tally them up at their own discretion!

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

^Read that before typing more uninformed nonsense!

One of the comments made by "Magic Johnson's T-Cells"

[sportjames23]

So basically you're making assumptions about games you never even watched? Show some video proof of Stockton getting assists he didn't deserve.

OP has an agenda against Old School players.

[ClipperRevival]

Have you ever factored in that Stockton's teammates shot the ball better at home than on the road?

Jesus Christ this. Some of you kids try so hard to discredit past eras and to talk about sh't you don't know nothing about. Go outside and pick up a bball. :facepalm

[Edgar Friendly]

Stockton may have looked the host of a children's TV program but played as dirty as one of Suge Knight's body guards. Eff his legacy.

[tpols]

the only job john stockton would have with a professional basketball team today would be in their corporate office.

[Edgar Friendly]

the only job john stockton would have with a professional basketball team today would be in their corporate office.

You went too far again Zeke.

[SteveNashMVPcro]

The league ALTERED THE RULES to make life easier for players like Nash and Curry! Just ask Steve Kerr:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

Stockton played in the land of the giants against Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq etc... And held his own in a lethal and physical era.

Nash in the 1980's is not a top 20 players and would've been coming of the bench for ANY of the title winners in that decade!

Nash already had a season in which he averaged 18ppg on 48% shooting in Dallas and his 2point FG% was close to 50% in those years before the rule change, what makes you think that he benefited so hard from it. He did benefit a bit, can't deny that, but saying he was great only because of the rule change is bullshit.

Nash played in the land of giants such as Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, Dirk and won 2 MVPs while doing it

Nash would heavily benefit from the 80's higher pace, not to mention how revolutionary his (for that era) high volume 3point shooting would be :bowdown:

And yes I agree with the OP on Nash being the second greatest PG after Magic untill Curry got off

[Nick Young]

The current NBA statskeepers also always give CP3 and Rondo about 3 extra "assists" per game, "assists" that aren't marked down as "assists" when other players make the exact same pass.

[CuterThanRubio]

The current NBA statskeepers also always give CP3 and Rondo about 3 extra "assists" per game, "assists" that aren't marked down as "assists" when other players make the exact same pass.

I listed CP3's differential in the original post, the numbers speak for themselves.

Rondo is the king of meaningless assists and is worthless without the big 3, his differential is also +1, doesn't surprise me that Boston would cheat on the boxscores.

A player like Nash makes passes with the intention of orchestrating the gameplan, not holding the ball hunting for stats.

Karl Malone was responsible for AT LEAST HALF of Stockton's assists, while he was excellent at executing the 2 man game, its hard for me to give him full credit knowing the SECOND LEADING SCORER in NBA history was making things easy as they could be.

Same argument I made against Magic, he played with the leading scorer of all time, I'm not completely sold, and then when you consider the stat boosting things become crystal clear.

[fourkicks44]

So basically you're making assumptions about games you never even watched? Show some video proof of Stockton getting assists he didn't deserve.

CuterThanRubio, he has a point here. You have obviously attempted some reasearch and made some pretty radical claims. You should at least find proof in footage of one or two full games.




Nash already had a season in which he averaged 18ppg on 48% shooting in Dallas and his 2point FG% was close to 50% in those years before the rule change, what makes you think that he benefited so hard from it. He did benefit a bit, can't deny that, but saying he was great only because of the rule change is bullshit.

Nash played in the land of giants such as Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, Dirk and won 2 MVPs while doing it

Nash would heavily benefit from the 80's higher pace, not to mention how revolutionary his (for that era) high volume 3point shooting would be :bowdown:

And yes I agree with the OP on Nash being the second greatest PG after Magic untill Curry got off


I like and respect Nash, but he is not better than Isiah Lord Thomas III, sorry.

[Round Mound]

:facepalm :no:

[CuterThanRubio]

CuterThanRubio, he has a point here. You have obviously attempted some reasearch and made some pretty radical claims. You should at least find proof in footage of one or two full games.






I like and respect Nash, but he is not better than Isiah Lord Thomas III, sorry.

My claims are far from radical, they are supported by clear facts!

Certain players were receiving preferential treatment by the stat keepers at home.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it actually happened on many occasions:

http://deadspin.com/5336974/an-assist-for-nick-van-exel-how-an-nba-scorekeeper-cooked-the-books

+Yes he is, Nash was better than Isiah Thomas at passing and shooting no question about it and his impact on the sport still resonates today, Isiah is a forgotten footnote in league history, a relic of an era when you could push and fight your way to a title instead of playing the right way, no respect for that stuff from me!

[warriorfan]

ops mom manufactured a retard

[CuterThanRubio]

ops mom manufactured a retard

http://37.media.tumblr.com/1c040d8ec6a6aab36f90bf5d2c40cb41/tumblr_mtfzdeCGSm1rn4qwao6_250.gif

I know damn well a TOTAL LOSER with multiple accounts and an unhealthy OBSESSION with LeBron isn't trying to get smart, seriously dude you need to take that L and lay low for a while, Branfam completely own your soul and lets not forget that ALL of your posts are garbage, its time to SLOW DOWN and find a new hobby, clown!

There is absolutely NOTHING normal about a grown man CONSTANTLY melting down over LeBron, you need a healthy dose of psychotherapy!

How long were you watching and waiting for me to say something that affected you emotionally so that you had an excuse to attack?

I got you on strings fvckboy, its too easy and you should know better, I was toying with you for bashing Nash and you took it all personal like a big baby, you are a pvssy to the highest degree and you need help (and a haircut you sloppy piece of trash)!

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/jc/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAIlAAAAJDQ4OGU1YTdkLWI2MjktNGFmNy1iOD E3LTEyODJhYWQyOTc1Nw.jpg

:hammerhead:

[warriorfan]

http://37.media.tumblr.com/1c040d8ec6a6aab36f90bf5d2c40cb41/tumblr_mtfzdeCGSm1rn4qwao6_250.gif

I know damn well a TOTAL LOSER with multiple accounts and an unhealthy OBSESSION with LeBron isn't trying to get smart, seriously dude you need to take that L and lay low for a while, Branfam completely own your soul and lets not forget that ALL of your posts are garbage, its time to SLOW DOWN and find a new hobby, clown!

There is absolutely NOTHING normal about a grown man CONSTANTLY melting down over LeBron, you need a healthy dose of psychotherapy!

How long were you watching and waiting for me to say something that affected you emotionally so that you had an excuse to attack?

I got you on strings fvckboy, its too easy and you should know better, I was toying with you for bashing Nash and you took it all personal like a big baby, you are a pvssy to the highest degree and you need help (and a haircut you sloppy piece of trash)!

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/jc/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAIlAAAAJDQ4OGU1YTdkLWI2MjktNGFmNy1iOD E3LTEyODJhYWQyOTc1Nw.jpg

:hammerhead:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/embarassed-for-u.gif

[GrapeApe]

Wait, where is the proof of all these bogus assists? Am I missing something? Awarding an assist has always been somewhat subjective, but I don't see anything to indicate that Stockton was given more liberal scorekeeping than anyone else.

[CuterThanRubio]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/embarassed-for-u.gif

That is the look on your parents faces whenever they peek into your room over your shoulder and see you on "that stupid forum" again.

Stay out of my threads pvssy!

You are in your 30s on constant meltdown alert, whats wrong with you!?

:roll:

[warriorfan]

That is the look on your parents faces whenever they peek into your room over your shoulder and see you on "that stupid forum" again.

Stay out of my threads pvssy!

You are in your 30s on constant meltdown alert, whats wrong with you!?

:roll:

Pretty sure you are the one melting down over John Stockton allegedly getting an extra assist or two during home games 20 years ago...

Let that sink in for a moment

[CuterThanRubio]

Pretty sure you are the one melting down over John Stockton allegedly getting an extra assist or two during home games 20 years ago...

Let that sink in for a moment

:oldlol:

This is all you could come up with?

You suffered an unprovoked meltdown and then accused me of melting after I roasted you? I don't think so, pal!

You were forced to post a reaction gif since there was no room for rebuttal, it was expected, I backed you into a corner, just let it go, we share a lot of the same opinions, no reason to get your feelings hurt.

I mean, you literally just made a new thread about LeBron!

:roll:

You are the definition of an obsessed loser, now back to the topic,!


+There are no "allegations", the stats are available for all to see

This is an observational stand up routine more than anything!

Nash was getting robbed of assists on a nightly basis and still managed to make top 3 all time, he's the greatest passer ever, a guy like Magic may be a better overall PG but he had height and strength advantages (and terrible era advantages).

You can't even find a top ten assist compilation on youtube when you search for John Stockton highlights, literally 50% of every pass he made that led to a score was the work of Malone either breaking out, setting a hard screen and making a jumper, or rolling to the bucket.

Stockton is not a top 5 PG~

[warriorfan]

:oldlol:

This is all you could come up with?

You suffered an unprovoked meltdown and then accused me of melting after I roasted you? I don't think so, pal!

You were forced to post a reaction gif since there was no room for rebuttal, it was expected, I backed you into a corner, just let it go, we share a lot of the same opinions, no reason to get your feelings hurt.

I mean, you literally just made a new thread about LeBron!

:roll:

You are the definition of an obsessed loser, now back to the topic,!


+There are no "allegations", the stats are available for all to see

This is an observational stand up routine more than anything!

Nash was getting robbed of assists on a nightly basis and still managed to make top 3 all time, he's the greatest passer ever, a guy like Magic may be a better overall PG but he had height and strength advantages (and terrible era advantages).

You can't even find a top ten assist compilation on youtube when you search for John Stockton highlights, literally 50% of every pass he made that led to a score was the work of Malone either breaking out, setting a hard screen and making a jumper, or rolling to the bucket.

Stockton is not a top 5 PG~

https://play.empirecitycasino.com/empireCityCasino/default/images/games-landing/total-meltdown-big.jpg

[CuterThanRubio]

https://play.empirecitycasino.com/empireCityCasino/default/images/games-landing/total-meltdown-big.jpg

:rockon:

You got cooked, son, keep it moving!

31 years old and the culmination of your existence is dedicated to discussing LeBron James on a message board, what a sad individual you are!

I'm public enemy #1 out here, I got you in your feelings without even trying, its too easy, I see right through your little act, you are sorry as hell, post all the memes you want, you have been exposed!


I feel bad for bullying losers like you, but you asked for it, talk about a glutton for punishment

Seek help, in all seriousness you KNOW you have real internal problems, I'm praying for you my brother!

Now post another meme since you have nothing to say in response, come on you know you can't resist the urge, I'm in your head now, the voices are getting louder, the frustration level is rising, you are MELTING DOWN!


:hammerhead:

[tpols]

OP.. this happens all the time with lots of pg's.

[warriorfan]

:rockon:

You got cooked, son, keep it moving!

31 years old and the culmination of your existence is dedicated to discussing LeBron James on a message board, what a sad individual you are!

I'm public enemy #1 out here, I got you in your feelings without even trying, its too easy, I see right through your little act, you are sorry as hell, post all the memes you want, you have been exposed!


I feel bad for bullying losers like you, but you asked for it, talk about a glutton for punishment

Seek help, in all seriousness you KNOW you have real internal problems, I'm praying for you my brother!

Now post another meme since you have nothing to say in response, come on you know you can't resist the urge, I'm in your head now, the voices are getting louder, the frustration level is rising, you are MELTING DOWN!


:hammerhead:

you are a huge nerd that is oozing cringe out of every orifice of your body

do everyone a favor and stop posting

[Doctor K]

Not sure if you realize how much incredibly easier is to get an assist these days compared to before. Westbrook, just gives the ball to Durant at the 3pt line, Durant crosses over his defender and drives past him and hits a tough shot, and Westbrook gets the assist.


Back then no way thats an assist.




Honestly guys like Cousy/Robertson would average 12-14 assists these days

[SamuraiSWISH]

Have you ever factored in that Stockton's teammates shot the ball better at home than on the road?
No because OP is a moron.

[diamenz]

op is a twenty year old from a foreign country. stop wasting your time arguing with him.

[fourkicks44]

My claims are far from radical, they are supported by clear facts!

Certain players were receiving preferential treatment by the stat keepers at home.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it actually happened on many occasions:

http://deadspin.com/5336974/an-assist-for-nick-van-exel-how-an-nba-scorekeeper-cooked-the-books

That article isn't credible at all. It also countains a broken link to the original source, which has been removed or never existed. There are no 'clear facts' supporting your argument at all.

Show us a review of some of Stockton's game footage and provide us all concrete evidence that support the claims you have made.



+Yes he is, Nash was better than Isiah Thomas at passing and shooting no question about it and his impact on the sport still resonates today, Isiah is a forgotten footnote in league history, a relic of an era when you could push and fight your way to a title instead of playing the right way, no respect for that stuff from me!

Ok now you just sound like a crazy person.

[CuterThanRubio]

you are a huge nerd that is oozing cringe out of every orifice of your body

do everyone a favor and stop posting

:hammerhead:

Recycling my insults and using them against me, I don't think your parrot-like approach to internet arguments is working very well.

See, this is why I recommended that you keep your distance in the first place, because I can heat the charcoal up and roast you all day, but it won't have much of an impact since you will respond with some lame deflection just so you can have the last word, I'm just going to end this little beef now, you won't see me following you around like an obsessed crybaby, just get over it dude I know you are desperate for my attention and I gave you a quick sample!

and LOL@ these ridiculous Jordan fanboys still salty, I'm 26 and I live in MN you cornball, you can't stop my shine, I'm out here hurting feelings!

ANYWAY, a quick thank you to all of my haters, you give me energy!

And John Stockton is not a top 5 PG

He's trash

[tontoz]

Have you ever factored in that Stockton's teammates shot the ball better at home than on the road?


Seriously OP has brain damage. Stockton himself shot 2.4% better at home. Malone shot 1.8% better at home. Malone also took over 400 more free throws at home.

Role players typically have a bigger disparity between home and away performance.

1 star thread.

[fourkicks44]

:hammerhead:

Recycling my insults and using them against me, I don't think your parrot-like approach to internet arguments is working very well.

See, this is why I recommended that you keep your distance in the first place, because I can heat the charcoal up and roast you all day, but it won't have much of an impact since you will respond with some lame deflection just so you can have the last word, I'm just going to end this little beef now, you won't see me following you around like an obsessed crybaby, just get over it dude I know you are desperate for my attention and I gave you a quick sample!

and LOL@ these ridiculous Jordan fanboys still salty, I'm 26 and I live in MN you cornball, you can't stop my shine, I'm out here hurting feelings!

ANYWAY, a quick thank you to all of my haters, you give me energy!

And John Stockton is not a top 5 PG

He's trash

You should use some of that energy and tell us who you think are the top five PG.

[CuterThanRubio]

You should use some of that energy and tell us who you think are the top five PG.

For a person who disagrees with me and probably doesn't take my opinion seriously in the first place you sure are dedicated to picking my brain.

It is nice knowing that my progressive thought process is sparking new ideas and causing people to question the status quo, that is my true purpose on this board, dissing lame trolls is fun but I receive greater satisfaction spreading knowledge and enlightening the unaware! (Look at those views! shout out to the lurkers!)

I think it should be obvious that Magic is the best PG by default, a player that size automatically has an advantage over a majority of the opposition from a purely physical standpoint, and once you factor in his ball control and court vision its hard to compare, even when you consider his inflated numbers (80s= no defense).

I do truly believe that Steve Nash is the best pure passer, once he was put in position to drive an offense based on his instincts and P&R mastery he changed the way that NBA basketball was played, and is largely responsible for the current trends that are causing many 80s and 90s aficionados to melt down on a daily basis, so I have him at second.

3. Jason Kidd is essentially what Nash would be like if he traded in his shooting ability for athleticism, and Kidd benefited from playing in a terrible conference with the Nets, so he was able to overcome his inability to shoot and carry teams to the finals, so it shouldn't be surprising that once he developed a steady outside shot he played a crucial role on the Mavs championship team.

4. Gary Payton, defensive beast who could get to the rim and score at a good rate for a guy mainly looking to share the ball, played decent roles as a washed up scrub and hit the series clincher for MIA, nice!

5. Tony Parker, I would have put AI in this position but I was looking at this list from a "pure pg" perspective, and Parker is very underrated as a floor general, he is the engine that powers Pop's system. You can't discredit his success and a finals mvp erases the notion that he was riding Duncans coattails, he's outplayed a lot of greats on the way to championships, showing up when it matters most is a big deal.

Isiah Thomas was a candidate for 5th as well, but he was carried by great defenses and stat padded like a motherfvcker during the 80s, I'm still a fan of his though.


I'm not a big fan of lists, but you were begging for it and I figured I would make an effort to shift the discussion back to basketball and away from a FVCKBOY roast session, the nerve of these lame dudes man, 20 accounts and 6 years deep and you are still catching feelings on the daily, its ridiculous, please no more (:hammerhead: )!

[tpols]

this dude said to stay back "because I can heat the charcoal up and roast you all day"

:roll:



ANYWAY, a quick thank you to all of my haters, you give me energy!

And John Stockton is not a top 5 PG

He's trash

no one's hating.. nor are feelings hurt.. your whole premise is just ****ing dumb. and you just obliterated any doubt of anyone taking you seriously with those last few lines.

[CuterThanRubio]

this dude said to stay back "because I can heat the charcoal up and roast you all day"

:roll:



no one's hating.. nor are feelings hurt.. your whole premise is just ****ing dumb. and you just obliterated any doubt of anyone taking you seriously with those last few lines.

:hammerhead:

I'm in the passing lane, you are moving TOO SLOWLY to catch on, its time for you to take the next exit and get out of the way!

Are you unwilling to discuss the subject or are you brainwashed into believing the hype?

Am I not allowed to believe that Stockton is garbage? There are Kobe and LeBron tear downs on a regular basis but my opinion is too far fetched lmao get the fvk out of here man!

Stick to the topic or move on like the rest of the stable minded members of the forum, only a particular group of people are offended by my content, very strange...:hammerhead:

[AirTupac]

OP gets the biggest bozo award

[plowking]

Imagine if Stockton had won 2 MVPs in the 90s during Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley and Malone's prime.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg

Nash was quite simply a better offensive player than Stockton was. Stockton was far more limited in his game.

[Smoke117]

For a person who disagrees with me and probably doesn't take my opinion seriously in the first place you sure are dedicated to picking my brain.

It is nice knowing that my progressive thought process is sparking new ideas and causing people to question the status quo, that is my true purpose on this board, dissing lame trolls is fun but I receive greater satisfaction spreading knowledge and enlightening the unaware! (Look at those views! shout out to the lurkers!)

I think it should be obvious that Magic is the best PG by default, a player that size automatically has an advantage over a majority of the opposition from a purely physical standpoint, and once you factor in his ball control and court vision its hard to compare, even when you consider his inflated numbers (80s= no defense).

I do truly believe that Steve Nash is the best pure passer, once he was put in position to drive an offense based on his instincts and P&R mastery he changed the way that NBA basketball was played, and is largely responsible for the current trends that are causing many 80s and 90s aficionados to melt down on a daily basis, so I have him at second.

3. Jason Kidd is essentially what Nash would be like if he traded in his shooting ability for athleticism, and Kidd benefited from playing in a terrible conference with the Nets, so he was able to overcome his inability to shoot and carry teams to the finals, so it shouldn't be surprising that once he developed a steady outside shot he played a crucial role on the Mavs championship team.

4. Gary Payton, defensive beast who could get to the rim and score at a good rate for a guy mainly looking to share the ball, played decent roles as a washed up scrub and hit the series clincher for MIA, nice!

5. Tony Parker, I would have put AI in this position but I was looking at this list from a "pure pg" perspective, and Parker is very underrated as a floor general, he is the engine that powers Pop's system. You can't discredit his success and a finals mvp erases the notion that he was riding Duncans coattails, he's outplayed a lot of greats on the way to championships, showing up when it matters most is a big deal.

Isiah Thomas was a candidate for 5th as well, but he was carried by great defenses and stat padded like a motherfvcker during the 80s, I'm still a fan of his though.


I'm not a big fan of lists, but you were begging for it and I figured I would make an effort to shift the discussion back to basketball and away from a FVCKBOY roast session, the nerve of these lame dudes man, 20 accounts and 6 years deep and you are still catching feelings on the daily, its ridiculous, please no more (:hammerhead: )!


LMFAO...what a ****ing joke of a list. Steve Nash at 2? Tony Parker at 5? What the f@ck?

[fourkicks44]

For a person who disagrees with me and probably doesn't take my opinion seriously in the first place you sure are dedicated to picking my brain.

It is nice knowing that my progressive thought process is sparking new ideas and causing people to question the status quo, that is my true purpose on this board, dissing lame trolls is fun but I receive greater satisfaction spreading knowledge and enlightening the unaware! (Look at those views! shout out to the lurkers!)

I think it should be obvious that Magic is the best PG by default, a player that size automatically has an advantage over a majority of the opposition from a purely physical standpoint, and once you factor in his ball control and court vision its hard to compare, even when you consider his inflated numbers (80s= no defense).

I do truly believe that Steve Nash is the best pure passer, once he was put in position to drive an offense based on his instincts and P&R mastery he changed the way that NBA basketball was played, and is largely responsible for the current trends that are causing many 80s and 90s aficionados to melt down on a daily basis, so I have him at second.

3. Jason Kidd is essentially what Nash would be like if he traded in his shooting ability for athleticism, and Kidd benefited from playing in a terrible conference with the Nets, so he was able to overcome his inability to shoot and carry teams to the finals, so it shouldn't be surprising that once he developed a steady outside shot he played a crucial role on the Mavs championship team.

4. Gary Payton, defensive beast who could get to the rim and score at a good rate for a guy mainly looking to share the ball, played decent roles as a washed up scrub and hit the series clincher for MIA, nice!

5. Tony Parker, I would have put AI in this position but I was looking at this list from a "pure pg" perspective, and Parker is very underrated as a floor general, he is the engine that powers Pop's system. You can't discredit his success and a finals mvp erases the notion that he was riding Duncans coattails, he's outplayed a lot of greats on the way to championships, showing up when it matters most is a big deal.

Isiah Thomas was a candidate for 5th as well, but he was carried by great defenses and stat padded like a motherfvcker during the 80s, I'm still a fan of his though.


I'm not a big fan of lists, but you were begging for it and I figured I would make an effort to shift the discussion back to basketball and away from a FVCKBOY roast session, the nerve of these lame dudes man, 20 accounts and 6 years deep and you are still catching feelings on the daily, its ridiculous, please no more (:hammerhead: )!

You are correct I do disagree with you, but I am starting to take your opinion a little more seriously. You just have a habit of sensationalizing things so it is hard at times. It would obviously be boring on this message board if we all shared the same opinions and agreed all the time.

Anyway, how would you rank Chauncey Billups against those players you mentioned, including Stockton?

You rate Nash so highly, Billups has to be in the same conversation.

[Sarcastic]

Nash was quite simply a better offensive player than Stockton was. Stockton was far more limited in his game.

Not really. They are nearly identical in their skill sets.

[NumberSix]

Role players shoot a higher percentage at home. This is a statistical fact. It makes perfect sense that like once per home game, a PG hits an open man that makes a shot.

[diamenz]

"stockton is trash".

...and you're starting to take this guy seriously, fourknicks44?

[plowking]

Not really. They are nearly identical in their skill sets.

Umm, no they aren't.

Nash for me was the better passer, but we can debate that one.
What isn't comparable is their scoring skillset. Nash was far more dynamic, and a far better scorer. It isn't close, or comparable. Not to mention, Nash is one of the greatest shooters ever. Don't think I can put Stockton close to that either.

[Round Mound]

Stockton was better defensively than Nash. People forget that.

[Sarcastic]

Umm, no they aren't.

Nash for me was the better passer, but we can debate that one.
What isn't comparable is their scoring skillset. Nash was far more dynamic, and a far better scorer. It isn't close, or comparable. Not to mention, Nash is one of the greatest shooters ever. Don't think I can put Stockton close to that either.


What? Nash - .605% TS. Stockton - .604% TS. They're virtually identical. And Stockton kills him in assists. I mean you are a numbers guy. Lebron is the superior finisher because of numbers, right?

[warriorfan]

Nash was a choker that never even made the Finals

He does not belong anywhere near the top 5 point guards of all time

[plowking]

What? Nash - .605% TS. Stockton - .604% TS. They're virtually identical. And Stockton kills him in assists. I mean you are a numbers guy. Lebron is the superior finisher because of numbers, right?

Ah, so this has more to do with you being butt hurt from the other thread than actually trying to provide any sort of basketball discussion.
Don't worry, you're not the first to cry from one thread to another.

[Sarcastic]

Ah, so this has more to do with you being butt hurt from the other thread than actually trying to provide any sort of basketball discussion.
Don't worry, you're not the first to cry from one thread to another.


:roll: Don't flatter yourself. I'm was just trying to show how stupid your logic is. Mission complete.

Having watched both Jordan and Lebron play, I can confidently say that Jordan was the better finisher at the rim, regardless of what the stats say.

And having watched both Stockton and Nash, I can confidently say that they were relatively equal in skill sets. However keep in mind that Nash had the benefit of playing in a no hand checking era, which inflated the stats of all perimeter players. Furthermore he played in the best possible offense for point guards, under Mike D'Antoni. An offense so adept at maximizing the PG position, that Jeremy Lin looked like a Hall of Famer for a few weeks in it. I have no doubt that Stockton in the D'Antoni offense would do exactly what Nash was able to do.

[plowking]

:roll: Don't flatter yourself. I'm was just trying to show how stupid your logic is. Mission complete.

Having watched both Jordan and Lebron play, I can confidently say that Jordan was the better finisher at the rim, regardless of what the stats say.

And having watched both Stockton and Nash, I can confidently say that they were relatively equal in skill sets. However keep in mind that Nash had the benefit of playing in a no hand checking era, which inflated the stats of all perimeter players. Furthermore he played in the best possible offense for point guards, under Mike D'Antoni. An offense so adept at maximizing the PG position, that Jeremy Lin looked like a Hall of Famer for a few weeks in it. I have no doubt that Stockton in the D'Antoni offense would do exactly what Nash was able to do.

Stockton scored over 30 points like 9 times in his long ass career. You implying their ability to score the ball, or their skillsets being equal in any way proves you can watch all the basketball you want, but you simply don't know how to analyse what you're watching.

[NBAGOAT]

Nash has offensive impact that might be comparable to Magic, he's that elite of an offensive anchor. Pretty sure the only two years he played with non top 5 offenses was 11 and 12 where the Suns didn't have much. Stockton offenses weren't nearly that elite even if he played with Malone. Stockton could definitely be argued as a better passer but I think Nash's the superior playmaker cause of his penetrating ability, improvisation and he's a bigger threat to score.

[plowking]

Nash has offensive impact that might be comparable to Magic, he's that elite of an offensive anchor. Pretty sure the only two years he played with non top 5 offenses was 11 and 12 where the Suns didn't have much. Stockton offenses weren't nearly that elite even if he played with Malone. Stockton could definitely be argued as a better passer but I think Nash's the superior playmaker cause of his penetrating ability, improvisation and he's a bigger threat to score.

Stockton is the assist leader, but for me, he simply was too systematic and rigid in his game. He didn't have the creativity the Kidd's, Magic's and Nash's had. Even Paul I would place above him as a passer.

I mean Deron Williams was putting up 11apg in Sloan's system, where Boozer acted as the Karl Malone type.

[NBAGOAT]

Stockton is the assist leader, but for me, he simply was too systematic and rigid in his game. He didn't have the creativity the Kidd's, Magic's and Nash's had. Even Paul I would place above him as a passer.

I mean Deron Williams was putting up 11apg in Sloan's system, where Boozer acted as the Karl Malone type.

Definitely get what you're saying. Stockton's assists sometimes will just come off a pass to Malone in the post or a simple pass to a guy coming off a screen like Hornacek. Still I'll give him some credit too since less flash also meant less turnovers compared to Nash. Still playmaking which is more important is imo clearly Nash.

[fourkicks44]

"stockton is trash".

...and you're starting to take this guy seriously, fourknicks44?

He has some extremely radical oppions, but after he has listed which PGs he believes are better than Stockton and why, I think we can take him a lttle more seriously.

He doesn't do himself or his arguments any favors with sensationalized statements such as:


My claims are far from radical, they are supported by clear facts!



Nash was getting robbed of assists on a nightly basis and still managed to make top 3 all time

And then failing to provide any credible evidence to support them. Saying Stockton was trash is plain immature and wrong, I think everyone agrees on that despite what they say.


Stockton was better defensively than Nash. People forget that.

Exactly right.

[lucky001]

The only thing scoring wise where Stockton is comparable with Nash is hitting open shots - leave either of them open, and it's going in. Contested midrange, penetrating, tricky finishes inside, Nash is just better.

I value accuracy over creativity in passing, and Stockton was just so consistent. It's close though. Defense is not.

Both are top 5 points after magic, with zeke, Kidd, Payton, in some order.

[bluechox2]

has op even watched stockton play? another case of a stat whore

[CuterThanRubio]

Stockton is the assist leader, but for me, he simply was too systematic and rigid in his game. He didn't have the creativity the Kidd's, Magic's and Nash's had. Even Paul I would place above him as a passer.

I mean Deron Williams was putting up 11apg in Sloan's system, where Boozer acted as the Karl Malone type.


:applause:

See, everyone who assumed that I'm some lunatic has to realize that most people placing Stockton on a pedestal have never watched him play, or are simply following the herd!

Stockton's numbers were a PRODUCT of playing next to Malone, the second leading scorer, and under Sloan + weak wide open eras!

Whenever someone tries to excuse Nash's rise to prominence because he played in D'Antoni's 7SOL scheme I have to laugh, D'Antoni is widely accepted as a bad coach and has only had success with a certain PG at the helm.

Was his system responsible for Nash breaking out, or was Nash responsible for the invention of that coaching style? It is obvious that Nash's natural talent favors uptempo fastbreak offense since he is a passing wizard who could hit the three in transition at 40%+

Nash's main P&R partner was a guy who ended his career with LESS POINTS than him, and finding a shot for himself was normally a second or third option, incredible stuff!

Offense is more important than defense, and since when has the PG position made a definitive impact on that side of the floor for long stretches? Rim protection is more valuable than perimeter defense, and I'm not convinced that Stockton was all that, he has a lot of steals which is very surprising to me, those numbers are likely inflated as well, but gambling for steals isn't the same as cutting off your cover.

[fourkicks44]

From Dennis Rodman's book 'Bad As I Wanna Be':

[QUOTE]David Stern and the league would love it if I just went away. They

[CuterThanRubio]

From Dennis Rodman's book 'Bad As I Wanna Be':

Rodman, Dennis and Tim Keown. Bad As I Wanna Be. New York: Delacorte Press, 1996. Print. 64-66.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNMO0ceMh8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25t7wXLVfw

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/basketball-nba-playoffs-utah-jazz-john-stockton-in-action-vs-san-picture-id492636391

Another reason I dismiss Stockton as a top 5 PG, he was taking full advantage of his privileges as a small and seemingly "innocent" white man and grabbed jerseys and flopped away from the ball constantly, he was pushing the limits on a nightly basis and was rarely punished.

He and Malone were the leaders of one of the dirtiest starting 5's at their peak.

Steve Nash got screwed because he was one of the most honest and clean players ever, he only flopped when attempting to draw a charge under the basket and that was his only weapon against bigger and stronger guys in the paint,so I would categorize that as a strategic decision not a cheap tactic, he wasn't intentionally mucking things up to favor his side like Stockton and Isiah were.

Going back to one of your previous questions, I am a big fan of Chauncey as well, it would have been nice to see him on the Wolves for a few more years, but he was playing with much better and more balanced talent around him and his peak didn't have a very big impact on the sport.

[Cali Syndicate]

Another reason I dismiss Stockton as a top 5 PG, he was taking full advantage of his privileges as a small and seemingly "innocent" white man and grabbed jerseys and flopped away from the ball constantly, he was pushing the limits on a nightly basis and was rarely punished.

He and Malone were the leaders of one of the dirtiest starting 5's at their peak.

Steve Nash got screwed because he was one of the most honest and clean players ever, he only flopped when attempting to draw a charge under the basket and that was his only weapon against bigger and stronger guys in the paint,so I would categorize that as a strategic decision not a cheap tactic, he wasn't intentionally mucking things up to favor his side like Stockton and Isiah were.

Going back to one of your previous questions, I am a big fan of Chauncey as well, it would have been nice to see him on the Wolves for a few more years, but he was playing with much better and more balanced talent around him and his peak didn't have a very big impact on the sport.

When one of the best perimeters defenders of all time Gary payton was asked who the toughest player he ever played against, he answered Stockton. Not mj, not kobe, but Stockton. Just think about that.

And it really shouldn't matter if Stockton was grabbing jerseys and throwing elbows because guess what, a lot of the same was being done to him. But yes he was dirty. He wasn't undercutting you but as stated he would Chuck elbows into your gut or throw a knee into your quad running through a screen....that was the game back then.But lol for even bringing up flopping when almost every superstar today flops on the daily.

Stockton is an all time great passer. Dude could run plays to perfection and run the floor as well as any elite all time great pg. He would be dribbling the ball in front of you and all of a sudden the ball the ball is behind your head perfectly timed on a back cut before you even knew it. His fundamental s and floor vision was as good as it gets.

Nash on the other hands got to run around with a far more lax defensive stance. Nash was notoriously good at getting into the paint and dribbling in circles until someone got open. Yes he had excellent vision but let's not act he didn't have an easier time dribbling and attacking the basket.

[fourkicks44]

Another reason I dismiss Stockton as a top 5 PG, he was taking full advantage of his privileges as a small and seemingly "innocent" white man and grabbed jerseys and flopped away from the ball constantly, he was pushing the limits on a nightly basis and was rarely punished.

He and Malone were the leaders of one of the dirtiest starting 5's at their peak.

Steve Nash got screwed because he was one of the most honest and clean players ever, he only flopped when attempting to draw a charge under the basket and that was his only weapon against bigger and stronger guys in the paint,so I would categorize that as a strategic decision not a cheap tactic, he wasn't intentionally mucking things up to favor his side like Stockton and Isiah were.

Going back to one of your previous questions, I am a big fan of Chauncey as well, it would have been nice to see him on the Wolves for a few more years, but he was playing with much better and more balanced talent around him and his peak didn't have a very big impact on the sport.

I think Billups is underrated. His peak was relatively short and his stats skewed due to some lean seasons (the same can be said for Nash), because of this his true greatness is not well remembered. But his whole 2004 finals was phenomenal and should be remembered as such. Though the Kobe/Shaq Lakers era was in the twilight, the fact the competition was so good it was amazing Billups was able to claim the MVP. Shit, it is still hard to believe they won the championship 12 years later.

I concede that Nash is a better distributor and play maker. Chauncey was a better all round scorer and total player as his defense was far superior to Nash.

I can see what you are saying about Nash's game style and how the game has changed. But I think you overrate his overall impact on the league and underrate the impact of other great point guards and how they will be and should be remembered.

[OnFire]

Another reason I dismiss Stockton as a top 5 PG, he was taking full advantage of his privileges as a small and seemingly "innocent" white man and grabbed jerseys and flopped away from the ball constantly, he was pushing the limits on a nightly basis and was rarely punished.

He and Malone were the leaders of one of the dirtiest starting 5's at their peak.

Steve Nash got screwed because he was one of the most honest and clean players ever, he only flopped when attempting to draw a charge under the basket and that was his only weapon against bigger and stronger guys in the paint,so I would categorize that as a strategic decision not a cheap tactic, he wasn't intentionally mucking things up to favor his side like Stockton and Isiah were.

Going back to one of your previous questions, I am a big fan of Chauncey as well, it would have been nice to see him on the Wolves for a few more years, but he was playing with much better and more balanced talent around him and his peak didn't have a very big impact on the sport.

Chris Paul punches people in the nuts.

[Round Mound]

All this hate and nonsense about Stockton is just :rolleyes: :facepalm :no: :sleeping

Nash more flashy
Stockton more effective

[diamenz]

All this hate and nonsense about Stockton is just :rolleyes: :facepalm :no: :sleeping

Nash more flashy
Stockton more effective

all coming from an op that never even saw him play.

[Smoke117]

All this hate and nonsense about Stockton is just :rolleyes: :facepalm :no: :sleeping

Nash more flashy
Stockton more effective

Seriously. All these kids don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[Round Mound]

all coming from an op that never even saw him play.

I started watching the NBA live in 1991 unwards...so....:no:

[CakeorDeath]

This is either epic trolling or a fantastic exhibition of ISH logic.

Every time I see a thread about Malone, it inevitably turns into people arguing that Stockton made Malone. Now we have a thread arguing that Malone made Stockton.

Malone crushes most PFs in terms of longevity/length of peak/raw stats, but he's universally ranked below Duncan and frequently on ISH ranked below guys like Dirk and KG because of "post-season choking" and "no rings." Yet here we have a thread naming Nash the second best PG ever, despite the fact that he played with a top 20 player of all time (Dirk), and on some absolutely loaded teams (Suns, Lakers), and never even made the finals.

I'm betting OP isn't old enough to have seen Stockton during his peak. I'm not talking the Finals years. I'm talking late 80s/early 90s. Stockton's peak destroys Nash's. Stock has 8 seasons averaging 12 assists or more. Nash has zero. That's not due to home cooking by stats keepers. Further, Stock did it when you could basically smack perimeter players in the face. People lost their sh!t when Nash got body-checked in the Spurs series. You know what that was called during Stockton's prime? A common foul. Get up, take your free throws, and keep playing.

For all the talk of Malone giving Stockton easy assists, those Suns teams had more talent in the 10 man rotation than the Jazz ever had. Loaded with shooters and guys who could play fast and space the floor. Shoot near 50% and with no less than 16 seconds left on the shot clock.

Look at Stock's best assist year (89-90). Besides Malone, he had an absolutely washed up Darrell Griffith, Mark Eaton (who could never score), Bobby Hansen (who also could never score), Thurl Bailey (reasonable 3rd option, but declining), and a rookie Blue Edwards. You'd think that it would be one of those Suns teams, or a super team somewhere, or one of these crazy shooting Warriors teams that would produce the highest assist season in history. But nope, it was that Stockton/Malone plus scrubs team listed above. Let that sink in. Stockton averaged 3 more assists per game on that team than Nash ever did with his super-charged D'Antoni offenses.

But yeah, some old fart with a pen manufactured Stockton's legacy. :rolleyes:

[CakeorDeath]

By the way OP, of the five highest assist games in Stockton's career, three were on the road:

#1 - SAS (28 assists)
#2 - @NYK (27 assists)
#3 - POR (26 assists)
#4 - @LAL (24 assists) - playoff game
#5 - @HOU (24 assists)

[diamenz]

I started watching the NBA live in 1991 unwards...so....:no:

i was referring to the original poster.

[feyki]

By the way OP, of the five highest assist games in Stockton's career, three were on the road:

#1 - SAS (28 assists)
#2 - @NYK (27 assists)
#3 - POR (26 assists)
#4 - @LAL (24 assists) - playoff game
#5 - @HOU (24 assists)

88 WCSF :applause:

Stockton proved , has better playmaking than peak Magic at the time .

[Round Mound]

i was referring to the original poster.

Ok

[CuterThanRubio]

I think Billups is underrated. His peak was relatively short and his stats skewed due to some lean seasons (the same can be said for Nash), because of this his true greatness is not well remembered. But his whole 2004 finals was phenomenal and should be remembered as such. Though the Kobe/Shaq Lakers era was in the twilight, the fact the competition was so good it was amazing Billups was able to claim the MVP. Shit, it is still hard to believe they won the championship 12 years later.

I concede that Nash is a better distributor and play maker. Chauncey was a better all round scorer and total player as his defense was far superior to Nash.

I can see what you are saying about Nash's game style and how the game has changed. But I think you overrate his overall impact on the league and underrate the impact of other great point guards and how they will be and should be remembered.

I don't overrate his impact in the slightest, the best team in the league the last two seasons featured an offensive approach that directly mimicked Nash ball, a multitude of high screens followed by kick outs or pull ups with an emphasis on the fastbreak, and the Cavs are led by a ball dominant distributor who scores with high efficiency just like he did, the comparisons are very real and it is often mentioned that his old Suns teams are reminiscent of the elite squads of today.


+The pace in the 80s and early 90s led to more possessions, inflated numbers, and had worse defense across the board outside of the very best, bragging about Stockton averaging 12apg means very little without context, he was getting freebies on a regular basis and played with the second best scorer in league history, Nash rallied garbage!

The majority of Nash's highest assist games occurred on the road as well, has Stockton ever led an entire playoff series in points? I'll look into it but I'm doubtful!

[CuterThanRubio]

I have confirmed that John Stockton has NEVER led his team in scoring in a playoff series!

Steve Nash led his team in scoring and assists on multiple occasions, including a 7 game series against a prime Kobe Bryant, reviving an underpowered AMAR'E-LESS squad and coming back from a 3-1 deficit!

EDIT: Corrected the year: 04/05: 6 games vs. Mavs = 30.3ppg 6.5reb 12apg

30ppg! Has Stockton even scored 30 in a single game? Nash dropped 48,34,39 to close the series and managed to outscore Dirk! Stockton could never dream of outgunning a guy like Dirk!


He also led his squad in scoring against the Spurs in a sweep at age 35, how can you hate on that?

Steve ate that bums lunch head to head on numerous occasions once he became a full fledged starter and found his niche, including a playoff series where he outplayed him, there is no debate!

Keep in mind that Nash ended his career with MORE total points than Stoudemire, meanwhile Stockton was piggybacking the SECOND best scorer on the all time list, you simply cannot ignore this!

:hammerhead:

[warriorfan]

I have confirmed that John Stockton has NEVER led his team in scoring in a playoff series!

Steve Nash led his team in scoring and assists on multiple occasions, including a 7 game series against a prime Kobe Bryant, reviving an underpowered AMAR'E-LESS squad and coming back from a 3-1 deficit!

05/06: 6 games vs. Mavs = 30.3ppg 6.5reb 12apg

30ppg! Has Stockton even scored 30 in a single game? Nash dropped 48,34,39 to close the series and managed to outscore Dirk! Stockton could never dream of outgunning a guy like Dirk!


He also led his squad in scoring against the Spurs in a sweep at age 35, how can you hate on that?

Steve ate that bums lunch head to head on numerous occasions once he became a full fledged starter and found his niche, including a playoff series where he outplayed him, there is no debate!

Keep in mind that Nash ended his career with MORE total points than Stoudemire, meanwhile Stockton was piggybacking the SECOND best scorer on the all time list, you simply cannot ignore this!

:hammerhead:

Actually we can

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=319704

[Round Mound]

Stockton did not need to score as much cause he had Malone :confusedshrug: , one of the best scorers in league But...when the Jazz needed a clutch shooter Stockton was always the man to do so. Lets also remember that Stockton is the all time assist and steals leader. Stockton was also much better defensively than Nash.

[CakeorDeath]

I have confirmed that John Stockton has NEVER led his team in scoring in a playoff series!

...

Keep in mind that Nash ended his career with MORE total points than Stoudemire, meanwhile Stockton was piggybacking the SECOND best scorer on the all time list, you simply cannot ignore this!

:hammerhead:

So, when you are trying to downplay Stockton's assists, you mention the impact that playing with the second leading scorer of all time had on that statistic.

When you are arguing that Stockton should have scored more, you don't mention the impact that playing with the second leading scorer of all time had on that statistic.

Time to get your tinfoil hat adjusted.

[CuterThanRubio]

So, when you are trying to downplay Stockton's assists, you mention the impact that playing with the second leading scorer of all time had on that statistic.

When you are arguing that Stockton should have scored more, you don't mention the impact that playing with the second leading scorer of all time had on that statistic.

Time to get your tinfoil hat adjusted.

:hammerhead:

I never once said he "should have scored more", control your rage induced hallucinations, I'm simply broadcasting my observation that he was INCAPABLE of doing so if necessary, his career high in points was 34.


There were lesser players on his team who surpassed him in scoring too, not only Malone, he didn't stop them from scoring, Stockton didn't have the ability to control games by putting the ball in the basket, he was solely reliant on Malone putting in work!


Nash was able to outscore the main offensive weapons on his team during their primes without stalling the gameplan, he effortlessly blended his own opportunities within the flow of the game, there is a reason why he led a handful of the best offenses, his approach to the game was unheralded, and when a superior talent such as Curry or LeBron utilized Nash ball they won titles, no surprise there!


Guys like Nash and Parker were consistently keeping defenses in check because if you let him run free they will light you up, while teams could afford to let Stockton get his measly 10 points on high percentages because he wasn't EVER looking to take what the defense gave him from an individual standpoint!

Another thing, Stockton wasn't a defensive stalwart by any means, he played passing lanes well and was a dirty pest, but he was never a game changer on that end of the floor, he got clowned on the regular, and the point guard position is the least important defensively

[Round Mound]

Gary Payton Disagrees....:confusedshrug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCwyh0fDGw

:hammerhead:

[CuterThanRubio]

Gary Payton Disagrees....:confusedshrug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCwyh0fDGw

:hammerhead:

"John Stockton is harder to guard than Michael Jordan"

I can't even read that aloud without breaking into a fit of puzzled laughter, are you really trying to use that as your trump card? Get serious!

You are the same guy I saw claiming that Barkley was a SF and could finish better than LeBron and Jordan, lol get out of here man you are too funny!

None of my claims have been successfully refuted, and I doubt anyone disagreeing with my opinion is that big of a Stockton supporter in the first place, and how could you be, he was not an exciting player!

[Round Mound]

"John Stockton is harder to guard than Michael Jordan"

I can't even read that aloud without breaking into a fit of puzzled laughter, are you really trying to use that as your trump card? Get serious!

You are the same guy I saw claiming that Barkley was a SF and could finish better than LeBron and Jordan, lol get out of here man you are too funny!

None of my claims have been successfully refuted, and I doubt anyone disagreeing with my opinion is that big of a Stockton supporter in the first place, and how could you be, he was not an exciting player!

Im sure your opinion is more valuable than one of the greatest pgs to ever play in Gary Payton. And i never said that Barkley was a SF (he could play both PF and SF) and YES he was a better finisher than both Jordan and Lebron: 1988-96 stats at 81% at the rim. PHILA has the stats. Period.

[CuterThanRubio]

Im sure your opinion is more valuable than one of the greatest pgs to ever play in Gary Payton. And i never said that Barkley was a SF (he could play both PF and SF) and YES he was a better finisher than both Jordan and Lebron: 1988-96 stats at 81% at the rim. PHILA has the stats. Period.

Hyperbole

hy

[Sarcastic]

I thought this thread was about how stat keepers inflated Stockton's assists? You still haven't shown any evidence of that.

[CuterThanRubio]

I thought this thread was about how stat keepers inflated Stockton's assists? You still haven't shown any evidence of that.

Yes I have, its up to the reader to take the necessary steps and digest the information, I can't force you to learn

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-scorekeeper

Always on my d!ck, it is not surprising that you just made a thread about Draymond's, suspect activity, this is who I'm debating against? Jeez lol

:basketball

[fourkicks44]

[QUOTE=CuterThanRubio]Hyperbole

hy

[iamgine]

There have been many discussions in the past few days about the necessary criteria and credentials to be named one of the best point guards in league history, and these debates have produced some OUTRAGEOUS claims!

John Stockton and Mark Price have been name dropped on countless occasions, and their supporters swear that they would transform into the paleskinned Curry and Damian Lillard if they were playing today.

That reminded me of an old thread that dissected the assist differential between home and road games, and I recall Stockton getting a HEALTHY DOSE of home cooking, so I decided to investigate further and my suspicions have been confirmed!

First I'm going to list the assist differential for the top ten assist leaders, excluding 0scar 0berts0n because his numbers aren't available, and they are probably too scandalous to report in the first place, 60s basketball is an illusion.

1. Stockton +.8

2.Kidd +1.

3.NASH -.4

4. Mark Jackson +.7

5. Magic +.8

6. 0scar = Garbage

7. Isiah Thomas +.9

8. GP +.3

9. Andre Miller +1.

10. Rod Strickland +.4

BONUS: CP3 +.7

Now I know you may think that a few tenths of a percentage point are meaningless but consider that equates to 559 MORE home assists for Stockton in TWO LESS games.

That doesn't seem legitimate to me.

Take a look at Steve Nash's splits, he played 19 more home games and managed 75 less assists there, whats going on with that?

People in general play better at home, therefore the assist differential is perfectly normal.




Now let's take a look into the KARL MALONE factor!

He averaged 25 points per game over the course of his career.

Stockton averaged a 50% assist ratio

So MALONE was responsible for AT LEAST 6 of his assists per game, and that is only on average, Malone was scoring in the late 20s and peaked at 31, can you imagine how many assists were gifted to Stockton during those years?

Malone has TWO most valuable player awards, if Stockton was responsible for the success of Utah's system wouldn't he be the guy winning awards?

Malone made Stockton, and dishonest stat-keepers INFLATED his numbers!

Take another look at Nash's differential, NEGATIVE at home, yet he is 3rd all time, there is NO DOUBT in my mind who the greatest passer and pre-Curry era pure point guard is, stats don't lie!

You could also say Stockton was responsible for AT LEAST 6 of Malone's made FG. It goes both ways. Stockton and Malone were both all time great players.



------------------

Nash though, was on Magic Johnson's level offensively after the rule change. He just wrecked opponent's defensive scheme so easily by himself. It doesn't show that much at the stat sheet, but he was a monster. He truly deserved his 2 MVPs over Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, whoever else.

[CuterThanRubio]

[QUOTE=fourkicks44]:roll:

Holy shit, Son! You got me rolling here! This coming from you is hilarious. I guess you are the expert on the topic, so you would know hyperbole when you see it.

To be honest your posts do entertain me a lot. Your style is a bit extreme but your borderline trolling and antagonism reminds me a lil of my own. I feel honored that you youngins look up to me like that. You are learning kid, hang in there.

But the fact of the matter is that when you do make such controversial statements you need to back your arguments up with some credible, legit evidence.

I think the cases you have made for the point guards that you rate as the top 5 are actually pretty good and you raise some important points that get the mind going and should be pondered on. You do make some good arguments for Nash

[fourkicks44]

:roll:

Keep dreaming, you are nowhere near my level of posting expertise, you don't captivate, you are boring and have an outdated 90's-centric perspective, that ship has sailed! I do appreciate that you were willing to remain level headed and discuss the topic, but jumping out of character with those inane statements is taking it too far!

Why should I sort through hours of old footage, people still won't believe me, I posted numerous gifs in a recent thread and it failed miserably, planting the seed of truth was my true intention, like I said its up to the reader to dig deeper, stat keepers have admitted to altering numbers in the 90s, there was not constant surveillance and scrutiny like there is today, a few extras here and there would never be noticed, and most of their games were only viewed in a small area of the country, this isn't the DaVinci code, use your head!

My statement is not controversial when you really start comparing even if you think all of his stats are legit (LMAO), it has become a forbidden taboo to question his ranking and I decided to shed some light on the subject

Of course you aren't a fan, I predicted that from the outset, I see through these smoke screens, I'm too sharp for the nonsense!

Bob Cousy?! Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan lol, give it a REST!

The kids look up to Curry, they don't want to hear about those ancient relics who have no skills transferable to the modern era

"You are overrating his impact"

Oh yeah?

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/69/files/2016/05/steve-nash-stephen-curry-nba-stephen-curry-mvp-press-conference-850x560.jpg

Take a seat!

Stockton has ZERO influence on today's league!

I'm interested to know what your top 5 list looks like, its probably more outlandish than mine.

I was originally planning on laying low until the season started but this thread started blowing up and its too tempting to continue fueling the fire

Ok let us see how outlandish it is.

Like you, I am not a massive fan of ranking players in greatest lists but here is how I am feeling right now. I will not include currently active players; however Curry and Paul (and Westbrook when he wins a few championships with the Sixers) will be able to start making cases for their own standing amongst the best of all-time. I too, will also omit Allen Iverson.

1) Magic Johnson: I think just about every basketball fan can agree on this.

2) Oscar Robertson: Although you consider him