Duncan is top 5 all time...

[stalkerforlife]

This season doesn't change that.

If he plays next season, that season won't change it.

Nothing can change it.

Duncan is a top 5 player of all time and him having the balls to play for so long, which of course will affect his career numbers, changes nothing.

Kobe and Duncan...two top 5 players of all time from the same damn era. :applause:

[Magic 32]

I have him at 8.

The ultimate system player. But still a system player.

[LakersForlife]

This season doesn't change that.

If he plays next season, that season won't change it.

Nothing can change it.

Duncan is a top 5 player of all time and him having the balls to play for so long, which of course will affect his career numbers, changes nothing.

Kobe and Duncan...two top 5 players of all time from the same damn era. :applause:
duncan is an all time legend.. time to hang the jersey buddy

[stalkerforlife]

I have him at 8.

The ultimate system player. But still a system player.

Agree to disagree.

Dude was dominant on both ends. The system helped, but the triangle also helped a lot of guys.

[Real14]

I have Popovich/Duncan in my top 10 as well. I admit it folks.

[stalkerforlife]

I have Popovich/Duncan in my top 10 as well. I admit it folks.

I know your feelings on Duncan. :lol

[Real14]

I know your feelings on Duncan. :lol
Can you blame me?:oldlol:

[r0drig0lac]

OP :applause:

[DonDadda59]

I have him at 8.

The ultimate system player. But still a system player.

Tim Duncan was the System for 4 of his 5 championships. Before like 2013 the Spurs entire offensive system was based on him in the post.

[Real14]

I'm definitely going to miss these two together tho Justin. You will never see a player and coach sticking with each other for so many years. I respect that longevity, especially on how Duncan was great student with Popovich as a great teacher who never left. Damn!!!!! Momma told me there was gonna be days like this! :( :cry:

[Carbine]

I always find it interesting when people talk about the system in reference to Duncan. That is always a dead give away they're either trolling or didn't start watching until 2009ish.

Duncan was the half court system from 1999-2005, where he amassed 3 titles and was still the focal point until 2007-2008.

[ShawkFactory]

I have him at 8.

The ultimate system player. But still a system player.
Still?

[Real14]

Still?
Yea that's what the man said.

[stalkerforlife]

I'm definitely going to miss these two together tho Justin. You will never see a player and coach sticking with each other for so many years. I respect that longevity, especially on how Duncan was great student with Popovich as a great teacher who never left. Damn!!!!! Momma told me there was gonna be days like this! :( :cry:

End of a real ass era. :cry:

[ImKobe]

I always find it interesting when people talk about the system in reference to Duncan. That is always a dead give away they're either trolling or didn't start watching until 2009ish.

Duncan was the half court system from 1999-2005, where he amassed 3 titles and was still the focal point until 2007-2008.

hasn't played over 34 mpg since 2004

led the league in rebounds once in 19 years, never in rebounds per game, blocks, bpg or TRB%

let's not act like he hasn't benefited from the system and playing under the same coach for all his career.

[Zeppelin]

Stalker staying classy and not kicking a great player when he's down like some Kobe/Bran stans are doing. :bowdown: :bowdown:
I don't have Duncan or Kobe in my top 5 personally, but they're both wonderful players and nothing will ever change that.

[ImKobe]

Stalker staying classy and not kicking a great player when he's down like some Kobe/Bran stans are doing. :bowdown: :bowdown:
I don't have Duncan or Kobe in my top 5 personally, but they're both wonderful players and nothing will ever change that.

Only reason this thread was made was because Duncan had some points in garbage time when OKC fell asleep on a 20+ point lead

missed his last 3 shots when his team had their foot on OKC's neck

Pop takes the L again for relying on the old big 3

[DonDadda59]

Only reason this thread was made was because Duncan had some points in garbage time when OKC fell asleep on a 20+ point lead

missed his last 3 shots when his team had their foot on OKC's neck

Pop takes the L again for relying on the old big 3

Duncan>Kobe from now until infinity.

Deal With It.

[ImKobe]

Duncan>Kobe from now until infinity.

Deal With It.

Duncan hasn't won a Finals MVP in almost 11 years :oldlol:

Goes out losing in the 2nd round with HCA on a 67-win regular season team :oldlol:

[DingDengDong]

Duncan's decline and the last 2 playoff failures are not a coincidence. Duncan was always the key to the Spurs success, and without him being able to play to at least the level he was in 2014, they don't stand a chance.

[Lebron23]

Duncan's decline and the last 2 playoff failures are not a coincidence. Duncan was always the key to the Spurs success, and without him being able to play to at least the level he was in 2014, they don't stand a chance.

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/kawhi-leonard-si_bv102x.jpg

[Magic 32]

Duncan's decline and the last 2 playoff failures are not a coincidence. Duncan was always the key to the Spurs success, and without him being able to play to at least the level he was in 2014, they don't stand a chance.

He was nothing special in 2014.

Much better in 2013.

Not buying it. It's the decline of the big 3. Not just Duncan.

[tpols]

Duncan's decline and the last 2 playoff failures are not a coincidence. Duncan was always the key to the Spurs success, and without him being able to play to at least the level he was in 2014, they don't stand a chance.

sadly this is true.

aldridge cant play defense or board like even old duncan, and is only good when his contested mid range jumpers are falling. Kawhi shouldve been demanding the ball from tony parker and others in 4th quarters this series. He disapeared big time with his lack of wanting the ball and it cost the spurs.

Its just proof that you cant teach offensive alphaness, you either have unstoppable moves and counters or you dont. Kawhi and Aldridge dont have that next level gears offensively compared to true offensive superstars.

[DonDadda59]

Duncan hasn't won a Finals MVP in almost 11 years :oldlol:

And yet he has more than Kobe.


Goes out losing in the 2nd round with HCA on a 67-win regular season team :oldlol:

So a 67 win season and 2nd round berth in the playoffs is worse than a 17-65 record, good for second worst in the entire league?

Beautiful logic you got there, son.

Duncan>Kobe forever.

Deal.

[Cold soul]

The end of an era amazing player easily top 10.

[ImKobe]

Duncan's decline and the last 2 playoff failures are not a coincidence. Duncan was always the key to the Spurs success, and without him being able to play to at least the level he was in 2014, they don't stand a chance.

They just won 67 games with Duncan barely having an impact in the regular season

Their problem in this series was the PG position and getting killed on the boards. Parker needs to go, they desperately need a player like Shaun Livingston on that roster. Duncan, Manu and Parker held them back this year because they couldn't get much out of them, once they add some new pieces and get Kawhi more involved on offense they will be back to contending per the ususal, if Pop decides to continue coaching.

[Smoke117]

He's not top 5 and he's not top 10...he's better than Kobe, but both are overrated in general.

[ImKobe]

And yet he has more than Kobe.



So a 67 win season and 2nd round berth in the playoffs is worse than a 17-65 record, good for second worst in the entire league?

Beautiful logic you got there, son.

Duncan>Kobe forever.

Deal.

Kobe played a bigger role in winning 5 rings than Duncan, and it didn't take him 17 seasons to make it there.

Let's look at the reality here

Spurs have been in contention ever since Pop took over in the late 90s and have been able to put players around Duncan that fit the system for them to be in the Playoffs every single year, Duncan had Manu and Parker ever since D-Rob became a corpse and when Manu/Parker got old he got Aldridge and Kawhi to carry the load.

Kobe played under Phil for about half of his career, won 5 rings in a 10-year span and went out with a 60-point game (with his last make being a game-winner) and a W in his 20th year. He's had to play under some of the worst coaches and on some of the worst rosters in the modern era, yet achieved more Finals appearances, won the same amount of rings and went out on his terms.

Duncan OTOH went out a role player that he was in another Playoff choke, something the Spurs have done more than any other team in the last 20 years.

[Magic 32]

Kobe played a bigger role in winning 5 rings than Duncan, and it didn't take him 17 seasons to make it there.

Let's look at the reality here

Spurs have been in contention ever since Pop took over in the late 90s and have been able to put players around Duncan that fit the system for them to be in the Playoffs every single year, Duncan had Manu and Parker ever since D-Rob became a corpse and when Manu/Parker got old he got Aldridge and Kawhi to carry the load.

Kobe played under Phil for about half of his career, won 5 rings in a 10-year span and went out with a 60-point game (with his last make being a game-winner) and a W in his 20th year. He's had to play under some of the worst coaches and on some of the worst rosters in the modern era, yet achieved more Finals appearances, won the same amount of rings and went out on his terms.

Duncan OTOH went out a role player that he was in another Playoff choke, something the Spurs have done more than any other team in the last 20 years.

http://abload.de/img/ki2-gifdfsa7.gif

[K Xerxes]

Kobe played a bigger role in winning 5 rings than Duncan, and it didn't take him 17 seasons to make it there.

Let's look at the reality here

The reality is that Duncan was unquestionably the leader for at least four title runs, possibly even five. Kobe was the leader for two.

People always mention how Duncan benefited from having Pop and the same system for 20 years. And yet Duncan deserves the most credit for that. He adapted his role in the team when he began to decline in order to give himself and his team the best chance of winning year in year out. There was no ego, no drama and no petulance.

[Magic 32]

The reality is that Duncan was unquestionably the leader for at least four title runs, possibly even five.

http://i.imgur.com/XujHL.gif?noredirect

[rmt]

They just won 67 games with Duncan barely having an impact in the regular season

Their problem in this series was the PG position and getting killed on the boards. Parker needs to go, they desperately need a player like Shaun Livingston on that roster. Duncan, Manu and Parker held them back this year because they couldn't get much out of them, once they add some new pieces and get Kawhi more involved on offense they will be back to contending per the ususal, if Pop decides to continue coaching.

Duncan did have an impact in the regular season - he was 1st in DBPM and 2nd in DRating - a big part of why they were the best defensive team in the league. Of course, he took a step back offensively so that the offense would run through LMA and Leonard - that's natural and necessary.

[T_L_P]

Kobe played a bigger role in winning 5 rings than Duncan, and it didn't take him 17 seasons to make it there.

Let's look at the reality here

Spurs have been in contention ever since Pop took over in the late 90s and have been able to put players around Duncan that fit the system for them to be in the Playoffs every single year, Duncan had Manu and Parker ever since D-Rob became a corpse and when Manu/Parker got old he got Aldridge and Kawhi to carry the load.

Kobe played under Phil for about half of his career, won 5 rings in a 10-year span and went out with a 60-point game (with his last make being a game-winner) and a W in his 20th year. He's had to play under some of the worst coaches and on some of the worst rosters in the modern era, yet achieved more Finals appearances, won the same amount of rings and went out on his terms.

Duncan OTOH went out a role player that he was in another Playoff choke, something the Spurs have done more than any other team in the last 20 years.

I'm honestly shocked how much Kobe stans are clinging onto this last game BS.

Kobe has his arguments over Duncan for sure, but you're actually using one irrelevant game at the end of his career as your 2nd point for putting him over Duncan? lmfao

[stalkerforlife]

He's not top 5 and he's not top 10...he's better than Kobe, but both are overrated in general.

You're a sad little fat man.

[Magic 32]

As expected, this year changed nothing on my list.

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird

7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10 Hakeem
11. Lebron
12. Oscar

[DingDengDong]

And yet he has more than Kobe.



So a 67 win season and 2nd round berth in the playoffs is worse than a 17-65 record, good for second worst in the entire league?

Beautiful logic you got there, son.

Duncan>Kobe forever.

Deal.
At age 40 too. At 37, Duncan was a Ray Allen 3 while Duncan sat on the bench away from a FMVP. At 37, Kobe went 17-65.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe played a bigger role in winning 5 rings than Duncan, and it didn't take him 17 seasons to make it there.

NO :lol



Let's look at the reality here

Spurs have been in contention ever since Pop took over in the late 90s and have been able to put players around Duncan that fit the system for them to be in the Playoffs every single year, Duncan had Manu and Parker ever since D-Rob became a corpse and when Manu/Parker got old he got Aldridge and Kawhi to carry the load.

So basically you're saying that Tim is such a great basketball player that his talents can mesh with several lineups over 3 different decades and never once win less than 50 games and only when he hits a wall at 40 his 67 win team can't get past the 2nd round?

Got it.

You're making the guy out to be the GOAT, honestly.


Kobe played under Phil for about half of his career, won 5 rings in a 10-year span and went out with a 60-point game (with his last make being a game-winner) and a W in his 20th year. He's had to play under some of the worst coaches and on some of the worst rosters in the modern era, yet achieved more Finals appearances, won the same amount of rings and went out on his terms.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mczqkt8IFw1r3d8abo1_500.png

17-65 Season, dude.

This man Beans was literally the Bizarro Duncan this season. 65-17. 17-65. Unreal.


Duncan OTOH went out a role player that he was in another Playoff choke, something the Spurs have done more than any other team in the last 20 years.

The Spurs over the last 20 years have the best winning percentage in all of the major American sports leagues.


But a 17-65 record and 35.8% FG while your ridiculous contract destroys your franchise is better.

Logic. :applause:

[K Xerxes]

http://i.imgur.com/XujHL.gif?noredirect

All I hear is you Kobe stans harping on about how important Kobe was in the WC playoffs in 00-02. And i agree, he deserves credit for that even though Shaq's production metaphorically shat on him in the finals.

But it goes both ways. Duncan was huge in the WCF against OKC and their best player, which was arguably a tougher series for them than the finals. It was very much a team effort, but Duncan as the defensive anchor, certainly on and off court leader and still valuable offensive production merits a lot of credit in that year

[ImKobe]

The reality is that Duncan was unquestionably the leader for at least four title runs, possibly even five. Kobe was the leader for two.

People always mention how Duncan benefited from having Pop and the same system for 20 years. And yet Duncan deserves the most credit for that. He adapted his role in the team when he began to decline in order to give himself and his team the best chance of winning year in year out. There was no ego, no drama and no petulance.

That's a fancy way of saying he was a role player. I repeat, Duncan hasn't averaged over 34 minutes a game since 2004. He was getting his minutes limited in his late 20s, Kobe was playing under terrible coaches and on terrible rosters that forced him to play full games at age 34 just to give his teams a chance to make the Playoffs since he had no help

Kobe averaged 29 ppg for the most dominant Playoff team of all-time and swept the Spurs in the WCF despite Spurs having HCA and destroyed Duncan's Spurs on his own in 2008, scoring one bucket after another over Tim Duncan in the 4th quarter of Game 5

Head-to-Head in the Playoffs, Kobe's almost always bested Duncan, 4 out of the last 5 times to be exact, and in convicing fashion (I'm talking poster dunks and just driving inside and finishing over Duncan in close games).

How is it that Kobe only had Phil for 11 seasons but managed to make 7 Finals while Duncan made 6 Finals with Pop in 19 seasons, despite winning 50+ games every year? Do I really need to point out the fact that Spurs have choked more Playoff series than any other franchise since the Stockton/Malone Jazz?

[stalkerforlife]

Why is this turning into a Kobe vs Duncan debate?

Both are top 5 all time and you're not wrong if you have one ahead of the other.

Only people with an ability to be completely objective know they're both top 5 all time, but it is what it is.

[Magic 32]

Kobe has his arguments over Duncan for sure, but you're actually using one irrelevant game at the end of his career as your 2nd point for putting him over Duncan? lmfao

Well Duncan fans used him being the 50th best player in this year's playoffs as prof of something (maybe he closer to the 60th or 70th).

Using Kobe's 60 point game (a game that will go down as a genuine classic) is no more crazy than saying that Duncan did anything in his season worth fawning over.

Duncan did nothing. He just had the best organization is all of basketball.

[DingDengDong]

That's a fancy way of saying he was a role player. I repeat, Duncan hasn't averaged over 34 minutes a game since 2004. He was getting his minutes limited in his late 20s, Kobe was playing under terrible coaches and on terrible rosters that forced him to play full games at age 34 just to give his teams a chance to make the Playoffs since he had no help


That's a fancy way of making excuses for Kobe.

[rmt]

That's a fancy way of saying he was a role player. I repeat, Duncan hasn't averaged over 34 minutes a game since 2004. He was getting his minutes limited in his late 20s, Kobe was playing under terrible coaches and on terrible rosters that forced him to play full games at age 34 just to give his teams a chance to make the Playoffs since he had no help

Kobe averaged 29 ppg for the most dominant Playoff team of all-time and swept the Spurs in the WCF despite Spurs having HCA and destroyed Duncan's Spurs on his own in 2008, scoring one bucket after another over Tim Duncan in the 4th quarter of Game 5

Head-to-Head in the Playoffs, Kobe's almost always bested Duncan, 4 out of the last 5 times to be exact, and in convicing fashion (I'm talking poster dunks and just driving inside and finishing over Duncan in close games).

How is it that Kobe only had Phil for 11 seasons but managed to make 7 Finals while Duncan made 6 Finals with Pop in 19 seasons, despite winning 50+ games every year? Do I really need to point out the fact that Spurs have choked more Playoff series than any other franchise since the Stockton/Malone Jazz?

Why are you stuck on Duncan playing over 34 minutes per game? Leonard has NEVER averaged over 34 mins and he's only 24. Here are his averages: 24, 31.2, 29.1, 31.2, and 33.1 minutes per game. Does that make Leonard a role player?

[Magic 32]

That's a fancy way of making excuses for Kobe.

Just can't admit it. :facepalm

Kobe was playing 48 minutes at age 34.

[K Xerxes]

Half of your argument is h2h. Do i really need to highlight they do not play the same position :facepalm: They ended up with the same amount of titles on the same span so it is irrelevant

So kobe played for worse rosters and coaches. Exactly my point. Duncan is a big part of the reason for the stability in SAS for 20 years, as there was no drama driving key individials out of the team. He deserves credit for this

[ImKobe]

All I hear is you Kobe stans harping on about how important Kobe was in the WC playoffs in 00-02. And i agree, he deserves credit for that even though Shaq's production metaphorically shat on him in the finals.

But it goes both ways. Duncan was huge in the WCF against OKC and their best player, which was arguably a tougher series for them than the finals. It was very much a team effort, but Duncan as the defensive anchor, certainly on and off court leader and still valuable offensive production merits a lot of credit in that year

You can make a case that their Finals opponent was worse than every opponent they faced in the WC Playoffs

2000 - Portland (Kobe game-saving block on Sabonis, Kobe leading team in points, rebounds, assists and points in Game 7)
2001 - Spurs (Kobe 32/7/6, 45/10 game on the road @San Antonio)
2002 - Kings

Is it just possible that Kobe and Shaq looked at their match-ups and figured that perhaps it's best for the team that Kobe takes over offensively against teams that have the bigs to defend Shaq (Blazers, Spurs, Kings) and Shaq would take over against teams that have no answer for him inside? (every Finals opponent they faced)

Kobe's play in the WC Playoffs in 01 outweighed that of peak Shaq's, you honestly think that the 2001 championship that Kobe didn't win the FMVP in is worth any less than any of the 3 FMVP runs Duncan had? :biggums:

[Magic 32]

Half of your argument is h2h. Do i really need to highlight they do not play the same position :facepalm: They ended up with the same amount of titles on the same span so it is irrelevant

So kobe played for worse rosters and coaches. Exactly my point. Duncan is a big part of the reason for the stability in SAS for 20 years, as there was no drama driving key individials out of the team. He deserves credit for this

You can call it karma if you want to.

But you don't get to put that on the CV.

Did MJ create stability?

Did KG get anything out of being nice to his team for a decade?

[K Xerxes]

When it comes down to it, more MVPs and FMVPs is alone a better argument than H2H despite playing different positions and having worse rosters for some of his career. Still scratching my head as to how the latter is even considered an argument.

[DonDadda59]

Can anyone point to a worse player who took the most FGA for his team than Bean this past season?

17 FGA 35.8% FG/ 28.5% 3

PER- 14.9
USG 32.2
WS -0.4
WS/48 -0.010

Salary: $25 million
Team Record: 17-65

HOLT F*CKIN SHIT.

This man is by the numbers, and by the eye test, the absolute worst 'best' player to ever play in the NBA. Ever.

Can anyone find a player who comes within a country mile of this failure? :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

Why are you stuck on Duncan playing over 34 minutes per game? Leonard has NEVER averaged over 34 mins and he's only 24. Here are his averages: 24, 31.2, 29.1, 31.2, and 33.1 minutes per game. Does that make Leonard a role player?

I'm not stuck on it, just making the point that the way the Spurs are coached has allowed him to have a longer career since his minutes have been limited since his 20s... It's the Spurs' SYSTEM. They can win 67 games with their best player only playing 33 minutes a game because they have a good enough team to do so, not because that one player is that good.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe belongs with the Karl Malones, The Barkley's, The Dr J's, The Jerry Wests, The Elgin Baylors, The Moses Malones

[Magic 32]

When it comes down to it, more MVPs and FMVPs is alone a better argument than H2H despite playing different positions and having worse rosters for some of his career. Still scratching my head as to how the latter is even considered an argument.

So you don't like all-time lists with both bigs and guards?

You don't think MJ proved he was better than Barkley in 93?

[NBAGOAT]

So you don't like all-time lists with both big and guards?

You don't think MJ proved he was better than Barkley in 93?

Mj proved he was better than Barkley with his 5 MVP's and 6 FMVP's compared to Barkley's 1 MVP, not because he outplayed him in one series. If Barkley outplayed Jordan that series and won FMVP, there's still no way in hell I put him over MJ.

[ImKobe]

Can anyone point to a worse player who took the most FGA for his team than Bean this past season?

17 FGA 35.8% FG/ 28.5% 3

PER- 14.9
USG 32.2
WS -0.4
WS/48 -0.010

Salary: $25 million
Team Record: 17-65

HOLT F*CKIN SHIT.

This man is by the numbers, the absolute worst 'best' player to ever play in the NBA. Ever.

Can anyone find anyone who comes within a country mile of this failure? :confusedshrug:

Duncan had a PER of 16 this year :confusedshrug: Kobe in his 19th season had a higher PER than Duncan in his, does it matter in the long run when neither won the title while one made significantly more money and went out with his last game being a win and a memorable moment?

Using Kobe's last 3 injury-riddled seasons as an argument in any debate is utterly ridiculous and shows you have nothing to refute the fact that Kobe made 7 NBA Finals in 11 years of playing under Phil while Duncan only made 6 in 19 years under Pop with his team being in contention every year.

And what does the 25 mil have to do with anything? He earned his money and was the only reason anyone watched that joke of a "team".

[Cold soul]

I'm honestly shocked how much Kobe stans are clinging onto this last game BS.

Kobe has his arguments over Duncan for sure, but you're actually using one irrelevant game at the end of his career as your 2nd point for putting him over Duncan? lmfao

Thanks for at least admiting that. If that was Duncan final game he had great final game good way to go out.

[Magic 32]

Thanks for at least admiting that. If that was Duncan final game he had great final game good way to go out.

He got blown out and destoyed by a biker.

And he scored 17 points.

Great......:banghead:

[Magic 32]

If Barkley outplayed Jordan that series and won FMVP, there's still no way in hell I put him over MJ.

But if they played 6 times I would argue that it would factor in.

And I don't Barkley or MJ feels the same way you do.

One of the reasons that MJ is the GOAT is his almost perfect domination of every superstar matchup he ever faced.

[DonDadda59]

Duncan had a PER of 16 this year :confusedshrug:

So Duncan as a role player as you put it>>>Kobe as the alpha of his team? Thanks for clearing that up, bruh. :lol


Kobe in his 19th season had a higher PER than Duncan in his,

And Duncan has a higher CAREER PER than Beans, further proof that Timmy>

You're making my job ridiculously easy. :cheers:


does it matter in the long run when neither won the title while one made significantly more money and went out with his last game being a win and a memorable moment?

I would venture to say that a 67 win season is easily better than a 17 win season, no matter how hilariously any stan tries to spin it. :lol


Using Kobe's last 3 injury-riddled seasons as an argument in any debate is utterly ridiculous and shows you have nothing to refute the fact that Kobe made 7 NBA Finals in 11 years of playing under Phil while Duncan only made 6 in 19 years under Pop with his team being in contention every year.

They won the same number of titles and Duncan has more FMVPs (tied with the MDE who also has more than Beans).


And what does the 25 mil have to do with anything? He earned his money and was the only reason anyone watched that joke of a "team".

Duncan took a pay cut a few years ago so the Spurs could stay competitive. Since then they went to 2 Finals, winning 1 (a Ray Allen prayer shot away from 2) while averaging 61 wins per season.

Meanwhile, Bean crushed his team's ability to rebuild with his ridiculous contract and became the worst marquee player in NBA History en route to leading the Lakers to their worst records in back to back years.

[Cold soul]

He got blown out and destoyed by a biker.

And he scored 17 points.

Great......:banghead:

Okay maybe great isn't best word to use he still played pretty well overall.

[NBAGOAT]

But if they played 6 times I would argue that it would factor in.

And I don't Barkley or MJ feels the same way you do.

One of the reasons that MJ is the GOAT is his almost perfect domination of every superstar matchup he ever faced.

MJ would maybe feel worse but Barkley respects MJ too much. Ofc there's one superstar that has MJ's number in the playoffs in Bird but that really doesn't matter with the supporting casts they had.

[ImKobe]

Mj proved he was better than Barkley with his 5 MVP's and 6 FMVP's compared to Barkley's 1 MVP, not because he outplayed him in one series. If Barkley outplayed Jordan that series and won FMVP, there's still no way in hell I put him over MJ.

MJ is better than Barkley because he BEAT HIM H2H despite Barkley winning the regular season MVP that year and he led his teams to more Finals and won championships

Well, Kobe and Duncan won the same amount of championships but difference is that one played under the same HOF coach all his career and benefited from the competence of the organization while the other only had his HOF coach for 11 out of his 20 seasons.

Ok, so Duncan has more regular season MVPs, Kobe led the league in points 4 times (his main gift to the game being scoring) and is tied for most defensive first teams all-time

Duncan led the league in rebounds once, zero times in blocks (Duncan is considered to be one of the best defensive players ever with his main gift being the ability to protect the rim and rebound the ball), leads all players in defensive teams but doesn't have as many first teams as Kobe or KG or MJ.

Ok, so the next argument is that Duncan has one more Finals MVP

Do you think Kobe's 2001 or 2002 Finals numbers are worse than Duncan's in 2005? People act like Kobe wasn't good enough of a player to put up Finals MVP numbers when he averaged 25/8/6 in 2001 against Philly and 27/6/5 against the Nets in 2002...Duncan in the 2005 Finals had the worst TS% for any Finals MVP in the modern era (.471), Kobe the year before got crucified for being a terrible scorer against the same team with a .456 TS%. And Kobe averaged 2 more points per game, hit the game-tying shot in the only game they did win while Duncan shot terribly all series and missed a game-winning FT that could have cost his team the series in OT of Game 5. And this is me comparing Kobe's absolute worst Finals performance against one of Duncan's FMVP performances.

[PickernRoller]

In another life where Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Bird didn't exist.

[ImKobe]

So Duncan as a role player as you put it>>>Kobe as the alpha of his team? Thanks for clearing that up, bruh. :lol



And Duncan has a higher CAREER PER than Beans, further proof that Timmy>

You're making my job ridiculously easy. :cheers:



I would venture to say that a 67 win season is easily better than a 17 win season, no matter how hilariously any stan tries to spin it. :lol



They won the same number of titles and Duncan has more FMVPs (tied with the MDE who also has more than Beans).



Duncan took a pay cut a few years ago so the Spurs could stay competitive. Since then they went to 2 Finals, winning 1 (a Ray Allen prayer shot away from 2) while averaging 61 wins per season.

Meanwhile, Bean crushed his team's ability to rebuild with his ridiculous contract and became the worst marquee player in NBA History en route to leading the Lakers to their worst records in back to back years.

So you don't see any issue in having less Finals performances despite having 8 more seasons of Pop and being in contention while Kobe played with Kwame and Smush in the mid-2000s and was injured in his last 3 seasons

so it's better to be a role player on a team that chokes in the 2nd round than to earn max money and go out with a 60 pt game and a W

So Bean crushed his team's ability to sign max free agents in 2015 when they had ~40 mil in available cap space, know what the Lakers did with the available cap space? They got Roy ****ing Hibbert, who was absolute trash under Byron Scott.

Kobe's had to play for a franchise that picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson.


And Spurs just had the 5th best regular season in NBA history and lost to the worst 4th quarter team (other than the Sixers) twice at home in close games, ending up losing in the 2nd round of the Playoffs.

I guess averaging 4 ppg on below 40% shooting in the Playoffs is more impressive than going out with 60 points in your Final game in the 20th season.

[DonDadda59]

So you don't see any issue in having less Finals performances despite having 8 more seasons of Pop and being in contention while Kobe played with Kwame and Smush in the mid-2000s and was injured in his last 3 seasons

Bron is on the verge of playing in his 7th final in 9 years. Might finish his career with 10+ finals appearances. Doesn't mean shit if he finishes with only 2 rings and the same amount of FMVPs as Bean. Jerry West made 9 finals. Does that make him greater than Kobe?

And the reason Bean played with Kwame and Smush was because he couldn't get along with the MDE despite them winning 3 rings (Shaq won FMVP in every one) in 4 finals trips. Phil left because he hated Kobe.

Duncan played with countless different lineups and players in his 3 decade-spanning career, won a title in every decade, had the most wins of any team in American professional sports. Pop or any teammate has never in those 19 years had a negative word to say about him.

GOAT teammate vs Cancer who chases star players and coaches away.

Hard pick.


so it's better to be a role player on a team that chokes in the 2nd round than to earn max money and go out with a 60 pt game and a W

How is this even a question? :oldlol:

Who in their right f*cking mind is going to argue that chucking to the tune of 35.8% FG on the worst Lakers team of all time is better than winning 67 games, being one of the few teams to ever hit that mark?

Are you high? :biggums:


So Bean crushed his team's ability to sign max free agents in 2015 when they had ~40 mil in available cap space, know what the Lakers did with the available cap space? They got Roy ****ing Hibbert, who was absolute trash under Byron Scott.

Bean also chased away DuhWhite. And LaMarcus chose to play with Duncan instead.

CANCER (http://www.forbes.com/sites/briangoff/2015/07/03/the-lakers-problem-nobody-wants-to-play-with-kobe/#59c14ee378ae)


Kobe's had to play for a franchise that picked Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson.

D'Antoni had several 60 win games with Steve Nash as his best player.

Could only muster 45 and 22 with Beans as his lead dog.

CANCER.

[ImKobe]

Bron is on the verge of playing in his 7th final in 9 years. Might finish his career with 10+ finals appearances. Doesn't mean shit if he finishes with only 2 rings and the same amount of FMVPs as Bean. Jerry West made 9 finals. Does that make him greater than Kobe?

And the reason Bean played with Kwame and Smush was because he couldn't get along with the MDE despite them winning 3 rings (Shaq won FMVP in every one) in 4 finals trips. Phil left because he hated Kobe.

Duncan played with countless different lineups and players in his 3 decade-spanning career, won a title in every decade, had the most wins of any team in American professional sports. Pop or any teammate has never in those 19 years had a negative word to say about him.

GOAT teammate vs Cancer who chases star players and coaches away.

Hard pick.



How is this even a question? :oldlol:

Who in their right f*cking mind is going to argue that chucking to the tune of 35.8% FG on the worst Lakers team of all time is better than winning 67 games, being one of the few teams to ever hit that mark?

Are you high? :biggums:



Bean also chased away DuhWhite. And LaMarcus chose to play with Duncan instead.

CANCER (http://www.forbes.com/sites/briangoff/2015/07/03/the-lakers-problem-nobody-wants-to-play-with-kobe/#59c14ee378ae)



D'Antoni had several 60 win games with Steve Nash as his best player.

Could only muster 45 and 22 with Beans as his lead dog.

CANCER.

What does Lebron's inability to win championships have to do anything with it? Duncan and Kobe play in the superior conference and faced eachother 5 times this century, Kobe's teams beat Duncan's 4 out of 5 times and made the Finals those years, Kobe's Finals appearances have importance to them since he beat Duncan's team Head-to-Head in 2004 and 2008, Lebron doesn't get credit for beating a bunch of teams with zero HOFers and medicore coaches en route to a Finals appearance.

D'Antoni's Suns were stacked like the current Warriors, difference is that D'Antoni doesn't know what defense is. Those Suns teams had 3 all-star players in the starting 5 and a solid bench, 2013 Lakers were injured and Kobe played a total of 6 games in 2014.

[DixieNourmous]

That makes about 40 Top Ten players in the world according to Inside hoops
http://i.imgur.com/liImu.gif

http://i.imgur.com/liImu.gif

[retaxis]

If Duncan played with Shaq and Phil they would win 11 rings easily. Kobe is a failure and was lucky to play in Lakers with Shaq and Phil otherwise he would be a Tmac Lite

[toprange]

You can make a case that their Finals opponent was worse than every opponent they faced in the WC Playoffs

2000 - Portland (Kobe game-saving block on Sabonis, Kobe leading team in points, rebounds, assists and points in Game 7)
2001 - Spurs (Kobe 32/7/6, 45/10 game on the road @San Antonio)
2002 - Kings

Is it just possible that Kobe and Shaq looked at their match-ups and figured that perhaps it's best for the team that Kobe takes over offensively against teams that have the bigs to defend Shaq (Blazers, Spurs, Kings) and Shaq would take over against teams that have no answer for him inside? (every Finals opponent they faced)

Kobe's play in the WC Playoffs in 01 outweighed that of peak Shaq's, you honestly think that the 2001 championship that Kobe didn't win the FMVP in is worth any less than any of the 3 FMVP runs Duncan had? :biggums:

:applause: Priorities before stats padding. A real great vs a fake great (Lewho)

[Overdrive]

hasn't played over 34 mpg since 2004

led the league in rebounds once in 19 years, never in rebounds per game, blocks, bpg or TRB%

let's not act like he hasn't benefited from the system and playing under the same coach for all his career.

Playig for the same coach 20 years is a positive not a negative. It means the team's core and chemistry were good enough the let a coach work for 20 years, the coach is good enough to keep the players in check and the franchise does a consistent job of compiling quality talent around said player and coach. Something even the Lakers failed to do throughout Kobe's career.

[DingDengDong]

Playig for the same coach 20 years is a positive not a negative. It means the team's core and chemistry were good enough the let a coach work for 20 years, the coach is good enough to keep the players in check and the franchise does a consistent job of compiling quality talent around said player and coach. Something even the Lakers failed to do throughout Kobe's career.
Though Jackson himself admitted that Kobe himself was a significant reason Jackson initially left.

[ImKobe]

Playig for the same coach 20 years is a positive not a negative. It means the team's core and chemistry were good enough the let a coach work for 20 years, the coach is good enough to keep the players in check and the franchise does a consistent job of compiling quality talent around said player and coach. Something even the Lakers failed to do throughout Kobe's career.

I don't have a problem with the way the Spurs run their organization. It's obviously a huge positive for them to have been in contention since the early 90s except for the 1 year they tanked to get Duncan.

But it should be taken into account when comparing Kobe's career to Duncan's, since that heavily impacts their ability to win championships as well. They can't control every move their Front Offices make.

Kobe proved he could win 5 titles in 11 seasons under Phil Jackson, even though his team was nowhere near contention for 2 of those seasons, so it's more like 7 Finals appearances in the 9 years their teams were one of the favorites to make it there.

Point is that Duncan had more opportunities to advance deep into the Playoffs but fell short more than he succeeded. Kobe played a big part in that because the Lakers beat the Spurs 4 times in the last decade out of the 5 series they played in, twice in the Conference Finals.

So how are people going to say that there isn't a case to be made for Kobe being top 5 all-time if he managed to win the same amount of titles as Duncan while putting in the same or even more amount of work in those championship runs? There's a legitimate case to be made for each player.


Though Jackson himself admitted that Kobe himself was a significant reason Jackson initially left.

Yet Jackson came back to coach a team that had no chance of contention with Bryant being the only star player just a year later, and didn't leave until cancer and other health issues forced him to retire from coaching.

[DingDengDong]

Yet Jackson came back to coach a team that had no chance of contention with Bryant being the only star player just a year later, and didn't leave until cancer and other health issues forced him to retire from coaching.
That is beside the point. You complained about inconsistency in coaches Kobe had, yet he is partially responsible for that inconsistency. His entire prime would have had Phil if it weren't for the mid-2000s when Phil was fed up with Kobe.

[ImKobe]

That is beside the point. You complained about inconsistency in coaches Kobe had, yet he is partially responsible for that inconsistency. His entire prime would have had Phil if it weren't for the mid-2000s when Phil was fed up with Kobe.

the 2005 roster sucked no matter what and Kobe/Odom were dealing with injuries, it doesn't matter. They were in a rebuilding stage. OTOH, they were in position to draft Bynum thanks to the season they had with multiple random HCs and all the issues the roster faced.

It's not really just about Phil here, Lakers Front Office made some horrible decisions and the David Stern Veto put the nail in the coffin. Best case scenario would have been that Jim Buss never got any power within the organization and Lakers got Phil back on the coaching staff. At least then they would have kept Gasol and Howard and Kobe wouldn't have been forced to play that many minutes that led to his achilles injury.

Everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong after Phil retired and Jim Buss took over... signing Steve Nash was the 2nd worst move after replacing Mike Brown with D'Antonio.

[DingDengDong]

the 2005 roster sucked no matter what and Kobe/Odom were dealing with injuries, it doesn't matter. They were in a rebuilding stage. OTOH, they were in position to draft Bynum thanks to the season they had with multiple random HCs and all the issues the roster faced.

It's not really just about Phil here, Lakers Front Office made some horrible decisions and the David Stern Veto put the nail in the coffin. Best case scenario would have been that Jim Buss never got any power within the organization and Lakers got Phil back on the coaching staff. At least then they would have kept Gasol and Howard and Kobe wouldn't have been forced to play that many minutes that led to his achilles injury.

Everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong after Phil retired and Jim Buss took over... signing Steve Nash was the 2nd worst move after replacing Mike Brown with D'Antonio.
Wow, way to completely change the argument. Heck, by the end you are talking about post-prime Kobe. So many excuses.

[ImKobe]

Wow, way to completely change the argument. Heck, by the end you are talking about post-prime Kobe. So many excuses.

You said that Kobe drove Phil away in his prime when it was for one year, when him and his team were dealing with injuries and wouldn't have been any better than the following two years when Phil was back as the coach.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..

[ImKobe]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..

There we go. A Kobe hater finally agrees with me.


My job here is done, boys.

[TheImmortal]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..
Without a doubt :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Lebron23]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..


I agree. He was just a role player this season. The reason the Spurs won 67 games was because of Kawhi and Aldridge.

[riseagainst]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..

:applause:

[DingDengDong]

You said that Kobe drove Phil away in his prime when it was for one year, when him and his team were dealing with injuries and wouldn't have been any better than the following two years when Phil was back as the coach.
So then why all the crying that Kobe didn't have a consistent great coach?

[LAZERUSS]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..

:applause: :applause: :applause:


As for all-time rankings...

Duncan 7
Kobe anywhere from 8-13...but he has a strong case for 8th.

[Cold soul]

Bruh, I'll be honest, I'd much rather go out with 60 points in my final game, hitting a game winner, having celebrities celebrate me in the first floor, and leaving after making a final speech, than...

being part of a 67-win team playing 20 minutes a game, looking absolutely FINITO in the playoffs, and losing as huge favorites in 6 games in the second round while looking sad as you go out while getting blocked on your final shot..

Why one of biggest Kobe haters on earth said this holy shit. :wtf:

[stalkerforlife]

Why did MY thread turn into these shenanigans?

Kobe and Duncan are both top 5. They both stayed on one team like real alphas. They are the best players from their generation! Fans of both players should respect each other because of the epic battles and like minded success!

The rest doesn't matter!