Kareem Abdul Jabbar at the age of 39 and 40 years.old in the playoffs

[Lebron23]

1986 NBA playoffs: 25.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.1 spg, and 1.7 bpg

1987 NBA playoffs: 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.4 spg, and 1.7 bpg

http://www.shermanreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar.jpg

https://gmagazine.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/kareem-abdul-jabbar-g-magazine-top-10-nba-players.jpg

http://www.basketballphoto.com/Photos/Kareem_Abdul_Jabbar-16636.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

Dude dropped 32 points at 40 years old in the Finals clincher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwr0ceF-Jtk

[Magic 32]

Dude dropped 32 points at 40 years old in the Finals clincher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwr0ceF-Jtk

My favorite Kareem game.

Miraculous

[DingDengDong]

KAJ is probably #2 all time. His greatness should not be surprising to anybody.

[Tarik One]

Muslim diet

[Showtime80']

What a marvel this man was!!! This was his last truly great season and series.

Put this version of Kareem for the 1988 and 89' Finals and the Pistons don't stand a chance against the Lakers!

[Kiddlovesnets]

Thats very impressive, hes in a totally different generation as compared to his Lakers teammates.

[Rake2204]

Good grief, pretty amazing numbers for that age. As a Pistons fan, I often get caught up in remembering late-80's Kareem as a guy on his way out (particularly in his final series, a loss to the Pistons in '89). I don't think it ever clicked with me that he was averaging 26 a night at age 38 in 1986. Crazy.

[bdreason]

The GOAT. :bowdown:

[DonDadda59]

KAJ is probably #2 all time. His greatness should not be surprising to anybody.

This. If you factor in HS and College, KAJ is the greatest and most accomplished basketball player the World has ever seen.

[Pointguard]

Dude dropped 32 points at 40 years old in the Finals clincher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwr0ceF-Jtk
His timing for blocks and sense of when to cut was great.

[ImKobe]

crazy how consistent he was

Didn't he also win a Finals MVP at age 37? over prime Magic?

[SouBeachTalents]

crazy how consistent he was

Didn't he also win a Finals MVP at age 37? over prime Magic?

He did, at 37 he averaged 26/9/5 on 60%

[Tarik One]

This. If you factor in HS and College, KAJ is the greatest and most accomplished basketball player the World has ever seen.
Unfortunately, he's Larry Holmes-esque. Immensely talented and to a degree dominant. Both carried an unstoppable go-to move (sky hook/jab)....yet both perceived as aloof, surly jerkoffs who didn't have the personality to embrace their greatness. Bitter men indeed.

[FKAri]

Unfortunately, he's Larry Holmes-esque. Immensely talented and to a degree dominant. Both carried an unstoppable go-to move (sky hook/jab)....yet both perceived as aloof, surly jerkoffs who didn't have the personality to embrace their greatness. Bitter men indeed.
Well not bitter and not really an asshole. Just perceived as aloof cuz he doesn't have the typical sportstar personality and just likes to be left the fucc alone.

[Edgar Friendly]

The GOAT. :bowdown:

Yup. If most GMs answered honestly they would build a team around Kareem vs even Jordan, Wilt, or Shaq.

[Smoke117]

GOAT gon GOAT...what is your point? I've had KAJ the best all time for years now...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

The greatest basketball player of alltime

too bad he was a pothead, loner beta for the most part:oldlol: :oldlol: even his kids hate him:oldlol:

[feyki]

Muslim diet

Oruc factor .

[Gileraracer]

Lew Alcindor was better

[feyki]

Lew Alcindor was better

No , Kareem was peaked in 1972 .

[LAZERUSS]

No , Kareem was peaked in 1972 .

Either a '71 Alcindor, a '72 Kareem.

As for OP...

A 39 year old Kareem was hammering Hakeem and Ewing with 40+ point games.

A 40 year old Kareem outplayed a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's.

[feyki]

Either a '71 Alcindor, a '72 Kareem.

As for OP...

A 39 year old Kareem was hammering Hakeem and Ewing with 40+ point games.

A 40 year old Kareem outplayed a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's.

I don't think so . His peak years were in between 72-74 .

He just had great defensive centers against him in those playoffs . His playmaking,rebounding,defence , all were peaked at 72-74 .

[MiseryCityTexas]

KAJ is probably #2 all time. His greatness should not be surprising to anybody.

he was unstoppable in the early 70s.

[FKAri]

If MJ didn't exist he'd be GOAT. But I have a feeling he still wouldn't be recognized as such.

[TheImmortal]

This is why he's arguably the GOAT :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[dankok8]

Which player had the best peak is subjective and will always be debatable but Kareem is the most accomplished player of all time not least because of his durability. No player at age above 36 up until 40 years old could do what Kareem did. There is only a handful of centers in league history who were better than a 39 year old Kareem. That's why it's a disservice to Kareem to dismiss him and say he won 5 titles with Magic. Which other player could play at a level he did at THAT AGE? Kareem was 33 years old in the first postseason he played with Magic and that often gets lost in the shuffle.

[dreamwarrior]

Put 39yo Kareem on this year's Spurs and they win the championship.

[RoseCity07]

I'm one of the few that has Kareem as number 1 all-time ahead of Jordan. There really isn't much argument you can make for Jordan being better Kareem on the all-time greatest scorer. Has the rings. Plus he definitely has more rebounds and blocks than Jordan.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well not bitter and not really an asshole. Just perceived as aloof cuz he doesn't have the typical sportstar personality and just likes to be left the fucc alone.

nah hes kind of an asshole for sure

[Pointguard]

crazy how consistent he was

Didn't he also win a Finals MVP at age 37? over prime Magic?
Over is definitely the wrong word. More like because Magic made sure he won it. There was never a situation where a player got moreso behind another quite like Magic did for Kareem.

[ShawkFactory]

Over is definitely the wrong word. More like because Magic made sure he won it. There was never a situation where a player got moreso behind another quite like Magic did for Kareem.
Truth. Wasn't magic pretty much considered to be the best player in basketball at the time?

[dazzer87]

yeah

[Pointguard]

Which player had the best peak is subjective and will always be debatable but Kareem is the most accomplished player of all time not least because of his durability. No player at age above 36 up until 40 years old could do what Kareem did. There is only a handful of centers in league history who were better than a 39 year old Kareem. That's why it's a disservice to Kareem to dismiss him and say he won 5 titles with Magic. Which other player could play at a level he did at THAT AGE? Kareem was 33 years old in the first postseason he played with Magic and that often gets lost in the shuffle.
But you do have to admit, he was ready to retire before Magic arrived and was obviously frustrated with his ability to affect the game. Magic changed all of that... unquestionably. But you are right about Kareem's longevity. That was totally something he alone was doing at that age. Karl Malone is in a league by himself after Kareem.

[Pointguard]

Truth. Wasn't magic pretty much considered to be the best player in basketball at the time?
Yes, he and Bird were going back and forth for best player. Magic could have asserted himself and won MVP that year, but favored highlighting Kareem instead.

[Lebron23]

Yes, he and Bird were going back and forth for best player. Magic could have asserted himself and won MVP that year, but favored highlighting Kareem instead.


Magic was the Ultimate Team Player. Best Teammate of All Time.

[mr4speed]

Over is definitely the wrong word. More like because Magic made sure he won it. There was never a situation where a player got moreso behind another quite like Magic did for Kareem.

Sorry but I disagree. Exactly how did Magic "make sure" Kareem won it? Kareem won the 85 finals MVP because he deserved it! Aside from his horrible game 1, after that he was incredible and unstoppable - and not just the skyhook. Go back and look at the blocked shots, defense etc. Magic is the ultimate teammate but KAJ won the award because of his play.

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry but I disagree. Exactly how did Magic "make sure" Kareem won it? Kareem won the 85 finals MVP because he deserved it! Aside from his horrible game 1, after that he was incredible and unstoppable - and not just the skyhook. Go back and look at the blocked shots, defense etc. Magic is the ultimate teammate but KAJ won the award because of his play.

Not arguing the '85 FMVP, but the Lakers PLAYOFF MVP was definitely Magic.

[mr4speed]

Yes, he and Bird were going back and forth for best player. Magic could have asserted himself and won MVP that year, but favored highlighting Kareem instead.


Sounds like Magic is your favorite player = thats cool "pointguard" but I disagree with "could have won the MVP but favored Kareem"? Lets give KAJ some credit for earning his awards! Also Magic in 85 wasn't the best player - it was Bird. Magic came in 2nd in the reg season MVP voting in 85 but it really wasn't close as Bird had a tally of 763 to magic's 264. It wasn't until 87 that Magic really asserted himself as a scorer and won the MVP award. Before that season and really every year Bird was the better player (depending on your criteria!) and placed much higher in the MVP voting. Here is what i found.
1980 ROY was landslide for Bird. 1981 Dr J won with tally of 484 and Bird was 2nd with 423 and KAJ was 3rd with 286. (Magic was #11). For 1982 Moses won with 507, Bird 2nd with 456 and Dr J 3rd with 203 (Magic was #8) For 1983 Moses won with 720, Bird was 2nd with 364 and Magic 3rd with 304. For 1984 Bird won with 652, Bernard King 2nd with 373, Magic 3rd with 305. For 1985 Bird won with 763, Magic 2nd with 264 and Moses 3rd with 218. For 1986 Bird won with 763, Wilkins 2nd with 407 and Magic 3rd with 205. For 1987 Magic won with 733, Jordan 2nd with 449, Bird 3rd with 271. For 1988 Jordan won with 665, Bird was 2nd with 527 and Magic 3rd with 508. For 1989 Magic won with 664, Jordan 2nd with 598 and K. Malone 3rd with 362 (Bird was out for the season in 89) For 1990 Magic won with 636, Barkley 2nd with 614 (here was a controversy as he got 38 first place votes to Magic's 27) and Jordan was 3rd with 571. Just wanted to show how Bird was rated as the better player between he and Magic for their first 7 seasons - Then in 87 the debate was a dead heat until 89 and Bird was done!

[LAZERUSS]

Sounds like Magic is your favorite player = thats cool "pointguard" but I disagree with "could have won the MVP but favored Kareem"? Lets give KAJ some credit for earning his awards! Also Magic in 85 wasn't the best player - it was Bird. Magic came in 2nd in the reg season MVP voting in 85 but it really wasn't close as Bird had a tally of 763 to magic's 264. It wasn't until 87 that Magic really asserted himself as a scorer and won the MVP award. Before that season and really every year Bird was the better player (depending on your criteria!) and placed much higher in the MVP voting. Here is what i found.
1980 ROY was landslide for Bird. 1981 Dr J won with tally of 484 and Bird was 2nd with 423 and KAJ was 3rd with 286. (Magic was #11). For 1982 Moses won with 507, Bird 2nd with 456 and Dr J 3rd with 203 (Magic was #8) For 1983 Moses won with 720, Bird was 2nd with 364 and Magic 3rd with 304. For 1984 Bird won with 652, Bernard King 2nd with 373, Magic 3rd with 305. For 1985 Bird won with 763, Magic 2nd with 264 and Moses 3rd with 218. For 1986 Bird won with 763, Wilkins 2nd with 407 and Magic 3rd with 205. For 1987 Magic won with 733, Jordan 2nd with 449, Bird 3rd with 271. For 1988 Jordan won with 665, Bird was 2nd with 527 and Magic 3rd with 508. For 1989 Magic won with 664, Jordan 2nd with 598 and K. Malone 3rd with 362 (Bird was out for the season in 89) For 1990 Magic won with 636, Barkley 2nd with 614 (here was a controversy as he got 38 first place votes to Magic's 27) and Jordan was 3rd with 571. Just wanted to show how Bird was rated as the better player between he and Magic for their first 7 seasons - Then in 87 the debate was a dead heat until 89 and Bird was done!

I have several issues with the above.

One...let's include the post-season in those seasons. Magic jumps ahead of Bird in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91 and in the last five of those by landslides.

Then, how about comparing them at comparable ages?

By age 23, Bird's rookie season, Magic had already won two rings and two FMVPs. By 25, Magic held a 3-1 margin in rings, and a 2-0 margin in FMVPs. By age 28, Magic held a 5-2 margin in rings, they were tied at 2 in MVPs, and Magic held a 3-1 margin in FMVPs. By age 31, it was 5-3 in rings, 3-3 in MVPs, and 3-2 in FMVPs.

H2H...Magic, as well.

[Pointguard]

Sorry but I disagree. Exactly how did Magic "make sure" Kareem won it? Kareem won the 85 finals MVP because he deserved it! Aside from his horrible game 1, after that he was incredible and unstoppable - and not just the skyhook. Go back and look at the blocked shots, defense etc. Magic is the ultimate teammate but KAJ won the award because of his play.
Magic played unlike anybody else. Kareem was great and can't be below top 3 GOAT. But Kareem was talking about retiring in 1978. He wasn't that effective in 1978 or 1979. I frequently argue that if you wanted a ring in Basketball the best period to get it was 1974 til Magic and Bird's arrival: There were few dynasties during that time, new teams won it just about every year, few guys were winning MVP's outside of Kareem who couldn't get to the Finals but once? What Rick Barry did during that time was definitely more impressive than what Kareem did as far as winning was concerned.

If Magic played like other superstars, Kareem has no shot at winning MVP. But Magic chose to highlight Kareem PLAIN and SIMPLE. If he played on another team, Kareem had no shot at MVP as the Bucks, Philly and Celtics would have a far superior record than the Laker's without Magic. Everything that Kareem liked doing was amplified by Magic making it easier for him to do it.

[Pointguard]

Sounds like Magic is your favorite player = thats cool "pointguard" but I disagree with "could have won the MVP but favored Kareem"? Lets give KAJ some credit for earning his awards! Also Magic in 85 wasn't the best player - it was Bird. Magic came in 2nd in the reg season MVP voting in 85 but it really wasn't close as Bird had a tally of 763 to magic's 264. It wasn't until 87 that Magic really asserted himself as a scorer and won the MVP award. Before that season and really every year Bird was the better player (depending on your criteria!) and placed much higher in the MVP voting. Here is what i found.
1980 ROY was landslide for Bird. 1981 Dr J won with tally of 484 and Bird was 2nd with 423 and KAJ was 3rd with 286. (Magic was #11). For 1982 Moses won with 507, Bird 2nd with 456 and Dr J 3rd with 203 (Magic was #8) For 1983 Moses won with 720, Bird was 2nd with 364 and Magic 3rd with 304. For 1984 Bird won with 652, Bernard King 2nd with 373, Magic 3rd with 305. For 1985 Bird won with 763, Magic 2nd with 264 and Moses 3rd with 218. For 1986 Bird won with 763, Wilkins 2nd with 407 and Magic 3rd with 205. For 1987 Magic won with 733, Jordan 2nd with 449, Bird 3rd with 271. For 1988 Jordan won with 665, Bird was 2nd with 527 and Magic 3rd with 508. For 1989 Magic won with 664, Jordan 2nd with 598 and K. Malone 3rd with 362 (Bird was out for the season in 89) For 1990 Magic won with 636, Barkley 2nd with 614 (here was a controversy as he got 38 first place votes to Magic's 27) and Jordan was 3rd with 571. Just wanted to show how Bird was rated as the better player between he and Magic for their first 7 seasons - Then in 87 the debate was a dead heat until 89 and Bird was done!
Lazerus covered this for me. Magic came in the league much more developed than Bird - especially if you saw the post seasons where it took time for Bird to find his way. Took a while for Bird to handle pressure. Magic was also a better offensive rebounder despite Bird playing closer to the basket. Magic had more control of the game and was a much more efficient player despite not playing his natural position the first three or four years.

[k0kakw0rld]

G.O.A.T :applause:

[mr4speed]

I have several issues with the above.

One...let's include the post-season in those seasons. Magic jumps ahead of Bird in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91 and in the last five of those by landslides.

Then, how about comparing them at comparable ages?

By age 23, Bird's rookie season, Magic had already won two rings and two FMVPs. By 25, Magic held a 3-1 margin in rings, and a 2-0 margin in FMVPs. By age 28, Magic held a 5-2 margin in rings, they were tied at 2 in MVPs, and Magic held a 3-1 margin in FMVPs. By age 31, it was 5-3 in rings, 3-3 in MVPs, and 3-2 in FMVPs.

H2H...Magic, as well.

Respect to you but we have been over this before. The comparison by age is silly, also the point I was making was about the regular season MVP and the larger amount of games. Bringing in playoffs only helps skew things for Magic as the west was weaker, and KAJ was the focal point of the opposing teams defense in the earlier seasons, just like it was for Bird.

[feyki]

Magic wasn't better than Bird until 1987 . He just had Kareem , that's all about it .

[LAZERUSS]

Magic wasn't better than Bird until 1987 . He just had Kareem , that's all about it .


Including the post-seasons...and yes, he was better in '80, '82, '83, and '85. And Bird's edge in '81 wasn't much. Same in '84, when Magic was a FT away from having a 3-0 Finals record over Bird.

And again...compare them at the same AGES in their careers, and Magic was a considerably greater player.

[LAZERUSS]

Respect to you but we have been over this before. The comparison by age is silly, also the point I was making was about the regular season MVP and the larger amount of games. Bringing in playoffs only helps skew things for Magic as the west was weaker, and KAJ was the focal point of the opposing teams defense in the earlier seasons, just like it was for Bird.

Age is VERY important in these discussions. A 20 year old Magic was already a far greater playoff performer than a 23 year old Bird.

By 23, Magic was already established as one of the GOAT playoff performers in NBA history. Two rings, two FMVPs, and a clinching Finals game six in his rookie season, and without KAJ, that Bird never equalled in his entire post-season career.

Kareem benefitted far more from Magic, than the other way around. We already KNOW that Magic could carry teams to 62-17 and 57-22 records AFTER Kareem. BTW, in the Laker games that Magic missed, KAJ had a .604 W-L percentage. In the games that Kareem missed, Magic led the Lakers to a 24-8 record (.750), including a game six in the Finals.

And I have said it before, but had Magic wanted to score more, he most certainly could have. I suspect that he could have been a 30 ppg scorer. Interesting too, that in the Bird-Magic career H2H's...it was Magic who had the TWO highest scoring games.

[mr4speed]

Lazerus covered this for me. Magic came in the league much more developed than Bird - especially if you saw the post seasons where it took time for Bird to find his way. Took a while for Bird to handle pressure. Magic was also a better offensive rebounder despite Bird playing closer to the basket. Magic had more control of the game and was a much more efficient player despite not playing his natural position the first three or four years.


Magic came into the league much more developed? I disagree. Bird was the more well rounded player- why? Bird was a better defender than Magic. Bird had 3 second team all defensive team selections to zero for Magic. Magic did not make the all nba team in his first 3 years, Bird did. Magic as a rookie was getting lit up by the opposing team point guards by 30 and 40 points every game. The zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the nba - Norm Nixon had to guard the opposing PG. Shooting also goes to Bird, yes Magic's FG% was higher but this was due to all the layups and wide open looks Magic (and other LA players also got) from the double teams thrown at KAJ. Magic in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 29 of 164 for 17% Bird in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 185 of 550 for 33% - this shows Magic needed work on his outside shooting. Bird took awhile to handle pressure? I disagree. Bird was the focal point from day 1 year 1. Magic had the cushion of playing with KAJ -KAJ was the season MVP in1980. Bird had way more pressure on him and did it all in his 2nd year! The 7 game playoff vs sixers was pressure packed every game. Bird outplayed HTH Dr J in that series and Dr J was the season MVP in 81. Bird hit the game winner (bank shot) in game 7 and then really was the best player in the 81 finals not Maxwell. The cover of SI (Nov) for the 81-82 season had Bird as "The NBA's Best All Around Player" and did discuss Magic in the article. Magic had a poor 81 playoff series vs Houston. Rebounding? Sorry its Bird, Magic was no slouch but it was clear Bird was the more developed player coming into the league.

[TomCat]

as a cavs fan since 2003, weak era

[LAZERUSS]

Magic came into the league much more developed? I disagree. Bird was the more well rounded player- why? Bird was a better defender than Magic. Bird had 3 second team all defensive team selections to zero for Magic. Magic did not make the all nba team in his first 3 years, Bird did. Magic as a rookie was getting lit up by the opposing team point guards by 30 and 40 points every game. The zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the nba - Norm Nixon had to guard the opposing PG. Shooting also goes to Bird, yes Magic's FG% was higher but this was due to all the layups and wide open looks Magic (and other LA players also got) from the double teams thrown at KAJ. Magic in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 29 of 164 for 17% Bird in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 185 of 550 for 33% - this shows Magic needed work on his outside shooting. Bird took awhile to handle pressure? I disagree. Bird was the focal point from day 1 year 1. Magic had the cushion of playing with KAJ -KAJ was the season MVP in1980. Bird had way more pressure on him and did it all in his 2nd year! The 7 game playoff vs sixers was pressure packed every game. Bird outplayed HTH Dr J in that series and Dr J was the season MVP in 81. Bird hit the game winner (bank shot) in game 7 and then really was the best player in the 81 finals not Maxwell. The cover of SI (Nov) for the 81-82 season had Bird as "The NBA's Best All Around Player" and did discuss Magic in the article. Magic had a poor 81 playoff series vs Houston. Rebounding? Sorry its Bird, Magic was no slouch but it was clear Bird was the more developed player coming into the league.

You are ignoring reality. Magic was a considerably greater playoff performer from day one. And while Magic deferred to Kareem in his early years, he CLEARLY could have scored far more. Look no further than his game six, and without Kareem, in a blowout win on the road, in which Magic not only scored 42 points, but was, by far, the best rebounder on the floor.

By '82, Magic's post-season resume dwarfed Bird's. It was even greater by the end of '83, when Bird puked all over the floor against the Bucks in a sweeping loss (I know...the Bird fans will claim he was injured...which apparently he was for almost his entire post-season career.) And again, in '84, Magic was a Worthy blown pass, and a Worthy missed FT from sweeping Bird's Celtics, and thus holding a 3-0 Finals record against Bird, and with one more ring, and Bird with one less.

He redeemed himself in '85, and the post-season margin was now swelling.

Bird made a dent into that in '86, but from then on, it was Magic runaway in their post-season careers.

[mr4speed]

Including the post-seasons...and yes, he was better in '80, '82, '83, and '85. And Bird's edge in '81 wasn't much. Same in '84, when Magic was a FT away from having a 3-0 Finals record over Bird.

And again...compare them at the same AGES in their careers, and Magic was a considerably greater player.


Including the post seasons again highlights the easier path LA and Magic had in the west. Also Magic benefited much more having KAJ as a teammate than anybody Bird had until Mchale blossomed in 85. I agree Magic did more for KAJ but that would be from 86 -89. KAJ really helped LA and Magic in the beginning.
You are putting too much team success on Magic in the beginning. Magic better then Bird in 84? No way. Look at the games, Magic had good numbers but Bird outplayed him in the series and for the year. We have been over this already but again my criteria must be different than yours. Bird was the better player until 87.

[feyki]

Including the post-seasons...and yes, he was better in '80, '82, '83, and '85. And Bird's edge in '81 wasn't much. Same in '84, when Magic was a FT away from having a 3-0 Finals record over Bird.

And again...compare them at the same AGES in their careers, and Magic was a considerably greater player.

If you have debate on 84 you're biased , that's it .

But in my mind ( no bias in there , Magic is my one of the favoruite player ever and also i love him far more than Bird . He is sympathetic/smile guy rather than Bird ) , 1983 was only year to each other close together . Bird was clearly better in 80,81,82,84,85,86 ; i'm the playoffs guy but just look on mvp votes . Bird was different caliber player than Magic in between 80-86 .

[LAZERUSS]

If you have debate on 84 you're biased , that's it .

But in my mind ( no bias in there , Magic is my one of the favoruite player ever and also i love him far more than Bird . He is sympathetic/smile guy rather than Bird ) , 1983 was only year to each other close together . Bird was clearly better in 80,81,82,84,85,86 ; i'm the playoffs guy but just look on mvp votes . Bird was different caliber player than Magic in between 80-86 .

You are no more of a Magic fan than 87Lakers.

In any case, Magic was, without a DOUBT, a greater post-season player in '80, '82, '83, and '85.

And again, had Worthy not made that errant pass, and with Magic standing right next to him...and Magic would have four FMVPs, and six rings.

As for '81, Bird's Finals were pretty pathetic. Of course, had the NBA had a best-of-seven first round series that year, and there would have been a much greater probability that Magic would have faced Bird in that Finals. And given what we know about how the '81 ECF's went, and how the '80 and '82 Finals went...well, I have no doubt that Magic would won yet another ring, and likely what would have been the second of three straight FMVPs.

[mr4speed]

You are ignoring reality. Magic was a considerably greater playoff performer from day one. And while Magic deferred to Kareem in his early years, he CLEARLY could have scored far more. Look no further than his game six, and without Kareem, in a blowout win on the road, in which Magic not only scored 42 points, but was, by far, the best rebounder on the floor.

By '82, Magic's post-season resume dwarfed Bird's. It was even greater by the end of '83, when Bird puked all over the floor against the Bucks in a sweeping loss (I know...the Bird fans will claim he was injured...which apparently he was for almost his entire post-season career.) And again, in '84, Magic was a Worthy blown pass, and a Worthy missed FT from sweeping Bird's Celtics, and thus holding a 3-0 Finals record against Bird, and with one more ring, and Bird with one less.

He redeemed himself in '85, and the post-season margin was now swelling.

Bird made a dent into that in '86, but from then on, it was Magic runaway in their post-season careers.


I am not ignoring reality- you are. If not a missed free throw, if not a bad pass, those things HAPPENED. That was reality - just like Magic having horrible playing mistakes at the most crucial of moments in the 84 finals and playing very poorly in 83 finals (24 turnovers in 4 games and shooting 40.3%) as well as his terrible final game 3 vs Houston in 81 at the Forum scoring 2 baskets the whole game, missing FT late (he was 6-11 FT in game) and then hoisting an air ball on the last possession. Both Bird and Magic had bad performances - Magic just had more! If that series in 81 had been more than 3 games they probably would have won? - you don't KNOW - you are making assumptions. Another reality check Magic did not win the finals MVP in 1980. Kareem won it AFTER game 6 - yes after Magic's great game and CBS freaked out because KAJ wasn't present. The voters were pressured to change their votes so Magic could win that award. The reality is KAJ outplayed Magic in that series - and you never mention Wilkes career high and brilliant 37 points! And Magic didnt really redeem himself until 87 - in 85 KAJ was the finals MVP. I understand if Magic is your favorite player but it is you that does not have a grip on reality. Bird almost did puke on the floor in 83 vs Bucks as he did have the flu and missed 1 game. Magic had the easier path in the west and he had the benefit of KAJ being the focal point of the opposing teams defense until 87. Bird drew the opponents best defender every night for his entire career - Magic didn't. Magic could have scored more, but his shooting % would have fallen, LA would have been weaker team. You can't take Magic's greatest game 6 and use it as a measuring stick as the norm for what Magic "could have" done "if he wanted to". That is not reality.

[Pointguard]

Magic came into the league much more developed? I disagree. Bird was the more well rounded player- why? Bird was a better defender than Magic. Bird had 3 second team all defensive team selections to zero for Magic. Magic did not make the all nba team in his first 3 years, Bird did. Magic as a rookie was getting lit up by the opposing team point guards by 30 and 40 points every game. The zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the nba - Norm Nixon had to guard the opposing PG. Shooting also goes to Bird, yes Magic's FG% was higher but this was due to all the layups and wide open looks Magic (and other LA players also got) from the double teams thrown at KAJ. Magic in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 29 of 164 for 17% Bird in his first 6 seasons for 3pointers shot 185 of 550 for 33% - this shows Magic needed work on his outside shooting. Bird took awhile to handle pressure? I disagree. Bird was the focal point from day 1 year 1. Magic had the cushion of playing with KAJ -KAJ was the season MVP in1980. Bird had way more pressure on him and did it all in his 2nd year! The 7 game playoff vs sixers was pressure packed every game. Bird outplayed HTH Dr J in that series and Dr J was the season MVP in 81. Bird hit the game winner (bank shot) in game 7 and then really was the best player in the 81 finals not Maxwell. The cover of SI (Nov) for the 81-82 season had Bird as "The NBA's Best All Around Player" and did discuss Magic in the article. Magic had a poor 81 playoff series vs Houston. Rebounding? Sorry its Bird, Magic was no slouch but it was clear Bird was the more developed player coming into the league.
Sorry guy. Until '84 Bird had no consistency in the playoffs and his play dropped off in the post season. Regular season he was the better player. Bird developed into a post season in '84. Before then he could not control games like Magic, could not handle pressure like Magic, his inconsistency was consistent, he wasn't as efficient, he wasn't as clutch, nor as dependable.AND it really isnt debateable. Very similar to the Durant whose RS were as good as Lebron's and better in a couple of them but their post season's were were distinguishable. Durant far better than Curry in like six regular seasons by a huge margin... Curry better in two seasons. Whose better? And its mainly because Curry is more consistent, clutch and dependable.

Sports illustrated was never an authority on basketball. Best all around player? Magic proved he could play every position - he was all star at two positions and had one of the best finals game at the center. position. Doc and Marcus Johnson I believe already had better all around series than Bird at his position h2h around that time.

[mr4speed]

Sorry guy. Until '84 Bird had no consistency in the playoffs and his play dropped off in the post season. Regular season he was the better player. Bird developed into a post season in '84. Before then he could not control games like Magic, could not handle pressure like Magic, his inconsistency was consistent, he wasn't as efficient, he wasn't as clutch, nor as dependable.AND it really isnt debateable. Very similar to the Durant whose RS were as good as Lebron's and better in a couple of them but their post season's were were distinguishable. Durant far better than Curry in like six regular seasons by a huge margin... Curry better in two seasons. Whose better? And its mainly because Curry is more consistent, clutch and dependable.

Sports illustrated was never an authority on basketball. Best all around player? Magic proved he could play every position - he was all star at two positions and had one of the best finals game at the center. position. Doc and Marcus Johnson I believe already had better all around series than Bird at his position h2h around that time.


Sorry guy but looks like you and I see things a lot differently. As your user name implies I can see a bias towards Magic. Bird could not control games like Magic? Bird didn't play the point. And I've seen Magic get all the credit for LA winning - yes he was great but nothing is ever said about Pat Riley? about Cooper on Bird? About KAJ as a huge benefit? Bird not as clutch as Magic? Magic admitted in his book "Touch" pg 74 about his fear of taking the last shot in games, how it was KAJ, then Wilkes, then Nixon and all he got were crumbs "but that was all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship against Boston." I'll take Magic's own words over your view and SI's view on basketball- no disrespect intended, but how do you ignore Magic himself AND the view of all the NBA writers and analysts? What about 84 finals? Game 3 in 81 vs Rockets? I guess Magic's game 6 in 1980 is always a trump card? And if you believe he played center in game 6, we should just stop here - that is total hype. Jim Chones guarded Dawkins not Magic. How about all the bad games Magic had that nobody talks about? I understand he is a fan favorite, one of the biggest stars ever, but popularity aside, you have to look at the whole picture. The play in the 82 games season cant be ignored. Looking at playoffs only is skewed for Magic due to weak west. Look at each players skill set, objectively, and try to put aside all the ring counting. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons, that was the consensus then and really it should be today.

[Pointguard]

Sorry guy but looks like you and I see things a lot differently. As your user name implies I can see a bias towards Magic. Bird could not control games like Magic? Bird didn't play the point.
Neither did Lebron play the point but he controls the game better than Curry or even CP3. Lebron plays the same position Bird did. Few point guards impose their will on the game thru control of the game.



And I've seen Magic get all the credit for LA winning - yes he was great but nothing is ever said about Pat Riley? about Cooper on Bird? About KAJ as a huge benefit? Bird not as clutch as Magic? Magic admitted in his book "Touch" pg 74 about his fear of taking the last shot in games, how it was KAJ, then Wilkes, then Nixon and all he got were crumbs "but that was all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship against Boston."
Magic has said Bird was better than Jordan at times. He always overhyped him. He used Bird for every possible motivation period. If you want to compare clutch moments its not close and you will be crushed. Its not debatable. If you want to do it, I'm good for it. You do Birds and I'll show you Magic's clutch moments.



I'll take Magic's own words over your view and SI's view on basketball- no disrespect intended, but how do you ignore Magic himself AND the view of all the NBA writers and analysts? What about 84 finals? Game 3 in 81 vs Rockets? I guess Magic's game 6 in 1980 is always a trump card? And if you believe he played center in game 6, we should just stop here - that is total hype. Jim Chones guarded Dawkins not Magic. How about all the bad games Magic had that nobody talks about? I understand he is a fan favorite, one of the biggest stars ever, but popularity aside, you have to look at the whole picture. The play in the 82 games season cant be ignored. Looking at playoffs only is skewed for Magic due to weak west. Look at each players skill set, objectively, and try to put aside all the ring counting. Bird was the better player for the first 7 seasons, that was the consensus then and really it should be today.
Lazerus and I laid that out for you. Bird his first four years wasn't post season ready. Your counter would be that Bird was - you don't have a counter. I show you how Lebron, Curry and Durant are all measured now. Bird is most like Durant. He suffers from the same ailments in the post season. Magic has 3 MVP's against the East right?

As far as you not knowing about Magic's clutch moments is pretty crazy and will show you how hard they went at disparaging Magic. What's wild is that you apparently read a lot and embarrassed yourself like he had only one trump card. Totally ignoring the three killers he had against the Celtics in the playoffs. I only have Jordan with more big ones, quality or quantity. Bird, Wilkes and Nixon all together aren't even close to Magic's clutch moments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI The last five or six minutes of the video are all super clutch shots.

[LAZERUSS]

I am not ignoring reality- you are. If not a missed free throw, if not a bad pass, those things HAPPENED. That was reality - just like Magic having horrible playing mistakes at the most crucial of moments in the 84 finals and playing very poorly in 83 finals (24 turnovers in 4 games and shooting 40.3%) as well as his terrible final game 3 vs Houston in 81 at the Forum scoring 2 baskets the whole game, missing FT late (he was 6-11 FT in game) and then hoisting an air ball on the last possession. Both Bird and Magic had bad performances - Magic just had more! If that series in 81 had been more than 3 games they probably would have won? - you don't KNOW - you are making assumptions. Another reality check Magic did not win the finals MVP in 1980. Kareem won it AFTER game 6 - yes after Magic's great game and CBS freaked out because KAJ wasn't present. The voters were pressured to change their votes so Magic could win that award. The reality is KAJ outplayed Magic in that series - and you never mention Wilkes career high and brilliant 37 points! And Magic didnt really redeem himself until 87 - in 85 KAJ was the finals MVP. I understand if Magic is your favorite player but it is you that does not have a grip on reality. Bird almost did puke on the floor in 83 vs Bucks as he did have the flu and missed 1 game. Magic had the easier path in the west and he had the benefit of KAJ being the focal point of the opposing teams defense until 87. Bird drew the opponents best defender every night for his entire career - Magic didn't. Magic could have scored more, but his shooting % would have fallen, LA would have been weaker team. You can't take Magic's greatest game 6 and use it as a measuring stick as the norm for what Magic "could have" done "if he wanted to". That is not reality.

Whether they would have voted for Kareem, or not, does not change the fact that...1. KAJ MISSED the clinching game six...a game in which Magic put up one of the most memorable performances in Finals history. And 2. Magic had a 22-11-9 .573 .632 TS% Finals. Incidently, the Lakers played their best game of that series with KAJ watching it from his couch. Furthermore, Magic and Co. ran the Sixers into the ground...something they had failed to do when they would wait for the plodding Kareem to come down on the offensive end. And then 3. Magic was ROBBED of a FMVP in the '88 Finals. Worthy won it based on his game seven performance. The difference between the two clinching games? While Kareem did not play a lick in game six of the '80 Finals...Magic hung a 19--5-14 game on 6-9 and 7-8. Clearly Magic was the Lakers best player that entire series. Oh, and BTW, when Bird faced that same Bad Boy team...he shot .351 from the field. Magic put up a 21-6-13 .550 series against them.

Did Magic have some poor playoff series? Yes...but not nearly as many as Bird did. My god, the Magic-bashers claim he was "Tragic" in the '84 Finals. Sure he was...all he did was hang an 18-8-14 .560 series (BTW, he led the Lakers in rebounding in that series.) Just awful right? Meanwhile, Bird was awful in the '81 Finals; awful in a sweeping loss to the Bucks in '83; and horrific against the Pistons in '88. Not to mention playing well below par against LA in both '85 and '87. Furthermore, Bird had some putrid shooting playoff seasons and series. FAR more than Magic did.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

And then there was the KAJ effect. I have long maintained that the Lakers could have easily overcome Kareem in the '82 post-season, by giving more minutes to McAdoo. And the '87 Lakers were so dominant that they would have waltzed to a title by giving kareem's minutes to Thompson and Green. And then there was the '88 post-season, and particularly the Finals. Kareem was just a POS in the entire post-season, and did all he could to lose the Piston series in the Finals...including the worst game seven ever by a GOAT candidate. I would argue that the Lakers won that title DESPITE Kareem.

Interesting too, that the year after Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVED. And then the very next season after that, Magic led them to a 57-22 record, and then an upset over the 63-19 Blazers, before losing to a peak Jordan and the Bulls in the Finals.

Of course, the year after Magic retired the Lakers fell off the cliff with a 43-39 record, and then followed that up with an even worse 39-43 record.

In other words...Magic left the Lakers at about the same rate as he found them. In between, they went to nine Finals, and won five rings.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic could have scored more, but his shooting % would have fallen, LA would have been weaker team. You can't take Magic's greatest game 6 and use it as a measuring stick as the norm for what Magic "could have" done "if he wanted to". That is not reality

We witnessed what a peak Magic could do in the '87 Finals. He absolutely crushed the Celtics in every fashion in that Finals. He led BOTH teams in SCORING, led the Lakers in rebounding, was by far the leading assist man, and on a .541 FG% and a .960 FT%.

And how about the last two games of the Lakers '90 playoffs...back-to-back games of 43 points, both on 58% shooting, as well, to go long with a total of 14 rebounds and 17 assists.

And as I have mentioned before...in their career H2H's, guess who holds the two highest scoring games between Bird and Magic. Yep...Magic.

[mr4speed]

Neither did Lebron play the point but he controls the game better than Curry or even CP3. Lebron plays the same position Bird did. Few point guards impose their will on the game thru control of the game.


Magic has said Bird was better than Jordan at times. He always overhyped him. He used Bird for every possible motivation period. If you want to compare clutch moments its not close and you will be crushed. Its not debatable. If you want to do it, I'm good for it. You do Birds and I'll show you Magic's clutch moments.


Lazerus and I laid that out for you. Bird his first four years wasn't post season ready. Your counter would be that Bird was - you don't have a counter. I show you how Lebron, Curry and Durant are all measured now. Bird is most like Durant. He suffers from the same ailments in the post season. Magic has 3 MVP's against the East right?

As far as you not knowing about Magic's clutch moments is pretty crazy and will show you how hard they went at disparaging Magic. What's wild is that you apparently read a lot and embarrassed yourself like he had only one trump card. Totally ignoring the three killers he had against the Celtics in the playoffs. I only have Jordan with more big ones, quality or quantity. Bird, Wilkes and Nixon all together aren't even close to Magic's clutch moments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI The last five or six minutes of the video are all super clutch shots.

I do know about Magic's clutch moments and brought up Magic's game 6 because it somehow is used by Magic fans as an attempt to leverage an argument about Magic being able to score 40+ points anytime he wanted which is BS, or an attempt to somehow prove Magic had a better rookie season than Bird. Also notice how you quickly accept Magic getting this FMVP award over KAJ and yet LAZ will argue how Magic was more deserving than Worthy in 88 finals + how Worthy only got it because of 1 game. LOL - you can't have it both ways! I did watch the video - its great - and I have seen 95% of what is on it - I followed both players their entire careers. Did I ever say Magic wasn't great? The fake on Sprewell is priceless and the behind the back, then dish to Scott in Phoenix is gorgeous. Nobody threw bounce passes with the length and accuracy of Magic. With that being said, lets get back to my claim - which is valid. Bird was a better player for their first 7 seasons. Yes, I saw those great shots - incredible - and I counted 5 of them that were game winners. Did you notice how many of them occurred during Magic's first 7 seasons? I'll tell you - NONE of them. Look at his teammates and figure out the time in Magic's career. There are plenty of highlights on you tube of Bird - 1 of them is his top ten game winners. There is another that features 23 times where Bird hits the go ahead basket under the last 24 seconds. Bird was more clutch from the start. You guys love Magic and thats great, but Magic during his last 5 seasons was much better than his previous 7. That is my point but you guys can't seem to see it, and everybody else did.

[LAZERUSS]

I do know about Magic's clutch moments and brought up Magic's game 6 because it somehow is used by Magic fans as an attempt to leverage an argument about Magic being able to score 40+ points anytime he wanted which is BS, or an attempt to somehow prove Magic had a better rookie season than Bird. Also notice how you quickly accept Magic getting this FMVP award over KAJ and yet LAZ will argue how Magic was more deserving than Worthy in 88 finals + how Worthy only got it because of 1 game. LOL - you can't have it both ways! I did watch the video - its great - and I have seen 95% of what is on it - I followed both players their entire careers. Did I ever say Magic wasn't great? The fake on Sprewell is priceless and the behind the back, then dish to Scott in Phoenix is gorgeous. Nobody threw bounce passes with the length and accuracy of Magic. With that being said, lets get back to my claim - which is valid. Bird was a better player for their first 7 seasons. Yes, I saw those great shots - incredible - and I counted 5 of them that were game winners. Did you notice how many of them occurred during Magic's first 7 seasons? I'll tell you - NONE of them. Look at his teammates and figure out the time in Magic's career. There are plenty of highlights on you tube of Bird - 1 of them is his top ten game winners. There is another that features 23 times where Bird hits the go ahead basket under the last 24 seconds. Bird was more clutch from the start. You guys love Magic and thats great, but Magic during his last 5 seasons was much better than his previous 7. That is my point but you guys can't seem to see it, and everybody else did.

And you obviously missed my main point.

Kareem didn't step on the floor in that game six in the '80 Finals. Had he put up an ordinary 20-10 game, he would have had a strong case for FMVP (even that 42-15-7 game would likely not have been enough for Magic.)

Meanwhile, in that game seven of the '88 Finals, Magic not only played, he played exceptionally well. A 19-5-14, 6-9 and 7-8 game. And he was CLEARLY the best player in that series.

[dankok8]

But you do have to admit, he was ready to retire before Magic arrived and was obviously frustrated with his ability to affect the game. Magic changed all of that... unquestionably. But you are right about Kareem's longevity. That was totally something he alone was doing at that age. Karl Malone is in a league by himself after Kareem.

Problem is when people give Magic credit for reinvigorating Kareem's career like Kareem was lucky to have Magic and that's that. Kareem spent eight straight years of his prime from age 24 to age 32 (1971-1972 to 1978-1979 seasons) playing on teams that either weren't good enough or weren't healthy enough to win.

Overall when you look at the trajectory of Kareem's career he really wasn't that lucky at all spending the majority of his prime on inadequate teams. He played exactly one year of his prime with a healthy close to prime Oscar and then got Magic pretty late in his career.

[zizozain]

G.O.A.T :applause:








G.O.A.T :applause:

[Pointguard]

Problem is when people give Magic credit for reinvigorating Kareem's career like Kareem was lucky to have Magic and that's that. Kareem spent eight straight years of his prime from age 24 to age 32 (1971-1972 to 1978-1979 seasons) playing on teams that either weren't good enough or weren't healthy enough to win.

Overall when you look at the trajectory of Kareem's career he really wasn't that lucky at all spending the majority of his prime on inadequate teams. He played exactly one year of his prime with a healthy close to prime Oscar and then got Magic pretty late in his career.
Lets take Rick Barry with a worse team from '75 to '77. He wins it all that first year with the next best player being a rookie, Jamal Wilkes. Wilkes was the second best player all three years and nobody was competing with Wilkes as second best player. They play out two game sevens in the Conference Finals in '76 and '77 just barely missing the finals both years. In '78 Wilkes is the fourth or fifth best player on the Lakers and they lose in the first round. Rick Barry isn't winning anything in the 80's with Jamal Wilkes as his clearly second best player.

[Pointguard]

I do know about Magic's clutch moments and brought up Magic's game 6 because it somehow is used by Magic fans as an attempt to leverage an argument about Magic being able to score 40+ points anytime he wanted which is BS, or an attempt to somehow prove Magic had a better rookie season than Bird. Also notice how you quickly accept Magic getting this FMVP award over KAJ and yet LAZ will argue how Magic was more deserving than Worthy in 88 finals + how Worthy only got it because of 1 game. LOL - you can't have it both ways!
I never said anything at all about the 80' MVP. Magic definitely lost one to Worthy.


Did you notice how many of them occurred during Magic's first 7 seasons? I'll tell you - NONE of them. Look at his teammates and figure out the time in Magic's career. There are plenty of highlights on you tube of Bird - 1 of them is his top ten game winners. There is another that features 23 times where Bird hits the go ahead basket under the last 24 seconds. Bird was more clutch from the start. You guys love Magic and thats great, but Magic during his last 5 seasons was much better than his previous 7. That is my point but you guys can't seem to see it, and everybody else did.
Are you seriously saying that Bird was better in the playoffs his first four years? I'm not doubting Bird's regular season clutch moments. He was great, no doubt. Magic was definitely a big moment player as well as a big game/series player from day one. Its definitively untrue to say that about Bird.

And like I've been saying, its the Durant syndrome.

[dankok8]

Lets take Rick Barry with a worse team from '75 to '77. He wins it all that first year with the next best player being a rookie, Jamal Wilkes. Wilkes was the second best player all three years and nobody was competing with Wilkes as second best player. They play out two game sevens in the Conference Finals in '76 and '77 just barely missing the finals both years. In '78 Wilkes is the fourth or fifth best player on the Lakers and they lose in the first round. Rick Barry isn't winning anything in the 80's with Jamal Wilkes as his clearly second best player.

Rick Barry didn't have a worse team in 1975...

He had a Clifford Ray who was a terrific defensive center, Jamaal Wilkes who was a solid PF on both ends a few solid guards like Butch Beard, Jeff Mullins, and Charles Johnson. The following year in 1976 Phil Smith blossomed into an all-star caliber scorer and they drafted Gus Williams who was immediately a solid contributor and would be a star in Seattle in later years. And it wasn't the just the raw talent. The Warriors had chemistry, defensive balance, and rebounding.

Kareem's 1978 and 1979 Lakers had lots of scorers but none of those other things... They were a flawed team like the late 90's Lakers. Shaq had three all stars in Eddie Jones, young Kobe, and Nick Van Exel but they didn't do shit. Why? Because nobody played defense or went after rebounds apart from Shaq and Nick Van Exel killed their chemistry. Jordan's Bulls in his first two years had lots of talent. Charles Oakley, Orlando Woolridge and Quentin Dailey were ballers but that team didn't go anywhere.In terms of raw talent the 2014 Spurs weren't even a top 3 team but they obliterated the league. How did that happen?

[LAZERUSS]

Problem is when people give Magic credit for reinvigorating Kareem's career like Kareem was lucky to have Magic and that's that. Kareem spent eight straight years of his prime from age 24 to age 32 (1971-1972 to 1978-1979 seasons) playing on teams that either weren't good enough or weren't healthy enough to win.

Overall when you look at the trajectory of Kareem's career he really wasn't that lucky at all spending the majority of his prime on inadequate teams. He played exactly one year of his prime with a healthy close to prime Oscar and then got Magic pretty late in his career.

KAJ had teams that were capable of winning the title in '72-74. He also had teams that were capable of winning a title in '78-79.

Pointguard brought up a good point. Kareem had considerably more surrounding talent in both '78 and '79, than Barry did in '75. And when you factor in that the 44-38 Bullets won a title in '78, and that the 50-32 Sonics won a title in '79, it makes it even worse for Kareem. The Sonics, in particular, were no more than a collection of a few decent to good players. Also, KAJ's Lakers were losing in the first and second rounds of those years. They weren't even competitive.

And then how about Kareem's teams from '80 thru '89? You could make a case that, aside from '83, when Worthy was out in the post-season, and then again in '89 when Magic went down in the Finals, that they were the best team in the league every year. And yes, that includes '86. I have long maintained that the Celtics didn't have an answer for LA. They should have been swept in '84, and the Lakers beat them easily in '85, and routed them in '87.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

I bring these up because I have read those, including you, blaming Wilt for losing from '68 thru '70. I have also read those that have blamed Wilt for losing in other seasons in the '60's, despite the fact that he was battling far greater rosters every year. Wilt gets zero excuses, but then they pour out for Kareem.

And, furthermore, Wilt was losing game seven's to the champions every year from '68 thru '70. His teams weren't getting routed in the first and second rounds. Hell, he dominated Russell's HOF laden Celtics in the '68 EDF's, despite playing with a similar injury that reduced Reed to a worthless statue in the last three games of the '70 Finals. In fact, Chamberlain murdered Russell in what could have been a close-out game in game five of that series. But, he lost two more teammates to injuries in that game.

In the '69 Finals, there were numerous reasons why the Lakers lost that series. Even West blew chunks in the 4th quarter of game three. He and Baylor combined to shoot 1-14 in that quarter, in a 6 point loss. Furthermore, that series was decided by ONE PLAY. Had Egan not been stripped of the ball in game four, the Lakers would win that game, and then given that they romped over Boston in game five, they would have won that series, 4-1.

Of course, the real reason they lost that series was that they had an incompetent coach, who hated Wilt so much, that he left him on the bench in the last few minutes of a game seven, two point loss.

The '70 Finals? The Knicks were heavy favorites going into that series. Mainly due to the fact that the Lakers had a prime West, a washed-up Baylor, and a one-legged Wilt, with no depth. And a one-legged Wilt battled a peak Reed, who was much healthier, to a draw in the first four games of that Finals. And you certainly couldn't blame Wilt after Reed went down in game five. He dominated the last three games of that series...averaging 30-24 on a .710 FG%. I always found it fascinating that Wilt got the lion's share of the blame in that series, when West couldn't get the ball into Chamberlain in game five (Wilt only had three shots in the second half), nor could he even get a shot for himself (he only took two.) And then, in game seven, Frazier just slaughtered him. West was hurting, to be sure, but while a one-legged Wilt played well in that game seven, West puked all over the floor.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Sure, Kareem had "excuses" for not winning in some seasons of the '70's. IMHO, you can only blame a GOAT-level player when they either play way below expectations, or just plain poorly.

And that is my issue with the "bashers." The ONLY series in Chamberlain's entire post-season career in which you could make a case that he played poorly, was the '69 Finals. And even then, he provided 25 rpg, and outplayed his counter-part Russell. That is the ONLY one.

Not only that, but all anyone needs to know about WHY he played poorly came from a statement made by his incompetent coach. "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

And again, that series was in the Finals, and it went to a game seven. He had one other series in his entire post-season career, in which his TEAM played so poorly, that they were swept in the first round. And that was in his second year, and in a series in which he averaged 37 ppg and 23 rpg, and his teammates collectively shot .332 from the field (and his "HOF" teammates shot even worse.)

He wasn't playing poorly in the first round blowout losses to merely good teams. He was single-handedly carrying inferior rosters in those rounds, and then ultimately losing in close series to the eventual champions (almost always Russell's Celtics.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

I hold KAJ at least partially responsible for the Bucks losing in the '72 WCF's. Yes, I know that the Bucks had injury issues (Oscar), but the fact was, his teammates were so used to just giving him the ball, that they were stunned when he repeatedly starting missing shots as the series wore on. I have said it before, but in the last four games of that series, he shot an overall .414. And it was even worse in the 4th quarter of the clinching loss, when he went 2-8, while Chamberlain was pouring in nine points, blocking shots, stuffing in offensive rebounds, and even outrunning him down the floor.

'73. He took a 60-22 team down in flames in the first round against a 47-35 Warrior team, with a 22.8 ppg .428 series. Not only that, but Oscar played brilliantly in that series. That series falls directly onto a peak Kareem.

'74. I don't blame Kareem for losing in the Finals...except that he was outplayed by Cowens in game seven, particularly in the 4th quarter...of a blowout loss on his home floor. But, prior to that game, he had been on his way to a FMVP.

'75. Oscar retired, and there were other injuries,...and of course, Kareem, himself, missed 16 games with a broken wrist. (As a side-note, Chamberlain played a clinching game five of the Finals with a fractured wrist, and not only that, he dominated the game.) But even with a healthy Kareem, the Bucks only went 35-31. Again, the year before Oscar arrived, the Bucks went 56-26. BUT, that was with a motivated Kareem who was playing at peak-level by the second half of that rookie season. In any case, the Bucks didn't even make the playoffs.

'76. I REALLY blame KAJ for this. Why? Because, as I mentioned previously, he didn't play at anywhere NEAR the level he had with the Bucks just a few years earlier. The result... a 40-42 record, and again, no playoffs.

'77. Can't fault Kareem for anything this year. He led his team to the best record in the league, and then waxed Walton in the WCF's...albeit, in a sweeping loss. Just too many injuries.

'78 and '79. I lump these two together. Both teams were stacked, and playing in a very weak NBA (as far as top tier talent.) KAJ again broke his hand in '78, but he was healthy in the playoffs. He played reasonably well, but it was a quick first round exit. Same thing the following year. Too much talent to get blown out in the second round.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Everyone knows what happened to Kareem in his '79-80 season. MAGIC arrived. And it was MAGIC who rejuvenated his KAJ's career. Kareem had one of the best seasons of his career, with a career high FG%, and the Lakers waltzed to a title....which included blowing out the defending champion, and 56-26 Sonics, 4-1. Kareem was brilliant in the Finals, too. BUT, he missed the clinching game six on the road, and as it turned out, MAGIC would have a game for the ages, and the Lakers ran away from the stunned Sixers.

'81. Magic missed about the last half of the season, and while he did return and play well in the last few games of the regular season...for whatever reasons, he played poorly in the first round series against the 40-42 Rockets. Still, Moses Malone outplayed Kareem, as well, and for that, Kareem deserves at least some of the blame for that shocking loss.

'82. This was basically a season in which the Lakers were just so damned good, that in all honesty, they could have given KAJ's minutes to McAdoo, and probably still won the title. As it was, Magic had a near triple-double post-season, and a near triple-double Finals, and led his team to a title and won the FMVP. Can't blame Kareem for anything, though.

'83. The Sixers acquired Moses, and then just ran roughshod over the league. Magic again had a relatively poor Finals, but Moses just abused Kareem. Had Worthy not been lost before the playoffs, who knows. But, again, Kareem deserves at least some of the blame for getting his ass kicked.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

'84. This was the Finals in which the Lakers just HANDED the series to Boston. They were one bad Worthy pass away, in game two; and either a Worthy or a Magic missed FT away in the last few seconds in regulation of game four...of SWEEPING Boston. McHale called it the "Tragic Finals." True, Magic missed that FT late, and ran out the shot clock, and he, like Bird, played poorly in the game seven loss, but overall, he played brilliantly. He led the Lakers in rpg, averaged 18 ppg, handed out 14 apg, and shot .560. If anyone else deserves the share of the blame...look no further than Kareem. He shot poorly from the floor in the game two and four losses, and was horrific from the floor in the game five loss. Overall, he shot .481 from the field.

'85. After looking like he was done in game one of the Finals, Kareem exploded in the next five games, and completely destroyed the Celtics frontcourt. IMHO, his greatest Finals series. And a deserved FMVP.

'86. This was the enigma that was Kareem. He just murdered Hakeem and the Rockets in the regular season. So much, in fact, that the Rockets moved Sampson onto him in the WCF's. Kareem played well except for one bad game, but he was nowhere near as dominant as he had been against them in the regular season. Magic played poorly, as well, but clearly, much of the blame falls on a Kareem that didn't play nearly as well as he should have.

'87. Magic was now the scorer on this team, and the rest was history. Unquestionably one of the greatest Finals ever played. Furthermore, this Laker team was so loaded, that they could have given KAJ's minutes to Thompson and Green, and still waltzed to a title. KAJ did play reasonably well, though, particularly in the clincher. But the reality was, he was now a third wheel on this team.

'88. For those that argue rings in these GOAT discussions...Kareem winning a ring in '88 was a pure joke. He had an ordinary regular season; a poor playoff run; a putrid Finals; and a horrific game seven..the worst game seven ever by a GOAT. The Lakers won a title DESPITE Kareem.

'89. At 41-42, KAJ was done. And without Magic in the last two-and-half games of the Finals...so were the Lakers.

He retired after that, but Magic would then lead the Lakers to a 62-17 record, and followed that up with a 57-22 record, and a trip to the Finals. Magic then retired, and the Lakers plummeted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

[Pointguard]

Rick Barry didn't have a worse team in 1975...

He had a Clifford Ray who was a terrific defensive center, Jamaal Wilkes who was a solid PF on both ends a few solid guards like Butch Beard, Jeff Mullins, and Charles Johnson.

Clifford Ray could be called a good defensive center, he was far from terrific.
Jamal Wilkes was an inexperienced rookie with GS but was the fourth best player on the Lakers when he gained experience got more range on his shot. Pick between Lou Hudson and Nixon they both were better at guard duties than the Warrior guards. Dantley was coming into own as the most efficient high scorer ever. Kermit Washington was a tougher and better rebounder than the Warrior PF. The Laker teams were flat out better.


Kareem's 1978 and 1979 Lakers had lots of scorers but none of those other things... They were a flawed team like the late 90's Lakers. Shaq had three all stars in Eddie Jones, young Kobe, and Nick Van Exel but they didn't do shit. Why? Because nobody played defense or went after rebounds apart from Shaq and Nick Van Exel killed their chemistry. Jordan's Bulls in his first two years had lots of talent. Charles Oakley, Orlando Woolridge and Quentin Dailey were ballers but that team didn't go anywhere.In terms of raw talent the 2014 Spurs weren't even a top 3 team but they obliterated the league. How did that happen?
No matter how you rephrase it, you are making a seven year excuse for Kareem. I'm simply stating that the pattern, was etched in gold. It was among the easiest seven years to crack deep playoff runs with sucky teams like the Warriors had. With Magic they were contenders every year without excuses in the toughest era of the sport. To say that Magic didn't change the Laker's fortune is crazy.

[dankok8]

Clifford Ray could be called a good defensive center, he was far from terrific.
Jamal Wilkes was an inexperienced rookie with GS but was the fourth best player on the Lakers when he gained experience got more range on his shot. Pick between Lou Hudson and Nixon they both were better at guard duties than the Warrior guards. Dantley was coming into own as the most efficient high scorer ever. Kermit Washington was a tougher and better rebounder than the Warrior PF. The Laker teams were flat out better.

No matter how you rephrase it, you are making a seven year excuse for Kareem. I'm simply stating that the pattern, was etched in gold. It was among the easiest seven years to crack deep playoff runs with sucky teams like the Warriors had. With Magic they were contenders every year without excuses in the toughest era of the sport. To say that Magic didn't change the Laker's fortune is crazy.

Wilkes was no worse than the 2nd best player on the 1978 and 1979 Lakers. Dantley may have been a better scorer but he hurt his team by refusing to defend and rebound. Nixon was just a rookie in 1978. In 1979 he improved a lot but erratic and awful defensively as well. Lou Hudson was no longer in his prime in the late 70's. He was a minor contributor. That was a flawed team. Kermit as much of a headcase that he was, made a better PF than Adrian Dantley but we all know what happened to him when he punched Rudy T.

The 1975 Warriors meanwhile were very well constructed and had defense, rebounding, and of course luck. Lakers could have quite possibly won it all in 1978 or 1979 if they didn't have to face Seattle. The 1975 Warriors run is generally considered an anomaly in NBA history...

Again the 1978 and 1979 Lakers were among the worst rebounding teams in the league and an average defensive team. Seattle was top tier in both and that's why they cleaned the Lakers' clock!

Magic obviously made the Lakers a lot better but replacing Dantley with Chones/Haywood for rebounding and post defense and the maturation of Cooper who became an elite stopper and sharpshooter had a lot to do with the Lakers improvement too.

[Round Mound]

Magic wasn't better than Bird until 1987 . He just had Kareem , that's all about it .

This

[LAZERUSS]

This

How about this...

Two of the greatest to have ever played the game.

I would take either one.

[RRR3]

Impressive as hell, but am I the only one who thinks those rebounding numbers are disgustingly bad for a 7'2 center? Especially considering Kaj Led the NBA in RPG at one point

[mr4speed]

How about this...

Two of the greatest to have ever played the game.

I would take either one.

How about this-- can I have both?! Their court vision and instincts, BBall IQ and feel for the game, I think are incredible. And what little time they got to play on the same team the chemistry was instantaneous.Can you imagine building a team around these 2 guys?
I may differ in my opinion on some things, but I do respect your posts. You always do your research and are very detailed!!
:cheers:

[mr4speed]

How about this...

Two of the greatest to have ever played the game.

I would take either one.

How about this-- can I have both?! Their court vision and instincts, BBall IQ and feel for the game, I think are incredible. And what little time they got to play on the same team the chemistry was instantaneous.Can you imagine building a team around these 2 guys?
I may differ in my opinion on some things, but I do respect your posts. You always do your research and are very detailed!!
:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

How about this-- can I have both?! Their court vision and instincts, BBall IQ and feel for the game, I think are incredible. And what little time they got to play on the same team the chemistry was instantaneous.Can you imagine building a team around these 2 guys?
I may differ in my opinion on some things, but I do respect your posts. You always do your research and are very detailed!!
:cheers:

Those two, along with Duncan and Russell, were/are, the greatest chemistry builders in NBA history. They make the whole greater than the sum.

:cheers: