Most underrated achievement by LeBron: 2 time DPOY...

[Im Still Ballin]

Runner up

There are only a few perimeter players that have won an MVP and runner up DPOY in the same calendar season

LeBron has done it TWICE

Let's go one step further

He might be the ONLY perimeter player in NBA HISTORY to have won an MVP, runner up DPOY, FMVP and championship in the same calendar season

[leMVP]

He got robbed in 2013!!

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe 1996: Didn't place
Kobe 1997: Didn't place
Kobe 1998: Didn't place
Kobe 1999: Didn't place
Kobe 2000: 5th
Kobe 2001: 11th
Kobe 2002: 3rd
Kobe 2003: 8th
Kobe 2004: 10th
Kobe 2005: Didn't place
Kobe 2006: Didn't place
Kobe 2007: 24th
Kobe 2008: 5th
Kobe 2009: 7th
Kobe 2010: 12th
Kobe 2011: 11th
Kobe 2012: Didn't place
Kobe 2013: Didn't place
Kobe 2014: Didn't place
Kobe 2015: Didn't place
Kobe 2016: Didn't place

[DingDengDong]

He wasn't deserving of #2. He was only that high because of people in the media wanting the story of his greatness rather than LeBron actually earning it. The story of his career.

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

[warriorfan]

What's this? LeBron getting over representation from the media driven awards?

Thanks for the news flash mother f ucker

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe in years placed average position: 10th

LeBron in years placed average position: 6th

[AirBonner]

What's this? LeBron getting over representation from the media driven awards?

Thanks for the news flash mother f ucker
someone feels threatened :oldlol:

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 50.7 (48637 minutes played)

LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 58.4 (38478 minutes played)

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.6

LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +1.9

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5), is on par with LeBron's 8th best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5)

[AirBonner]

RIP Kobe fam.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 105
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 102

[Im Still Ballin]

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

[Marchesk]

Wilt Chamberlain defensive win shares: 93.9 (47,859 minutes played)

Wilt's best defensive win share season: 10.7

Wilt's best playoff DWS: 2.0

[Im Still Ballin]

Wilt Chamberlain defensive win shares: 93.9 (47,859 minutes played)

Wilt's best defensive win share season: 10.7

Wilt's best playoff DWS: 2.0
Need to account for era specificity

The LeBron Kobe comparison is fine because they played in the same era

[Prime_Shaq]

LeBron a runner-up as an achievement? Seems like familiar ground for him

[tpols]

Lebron: leads slightly in RS statz, but gets styled on by likes of terry, marion, kawhi, iggy, etc. humiliated by anyone with a decent jumper.

Kobe: cruises through regular season, but amps up in the playoffs, takes tough assignments when necessary ie. rondo's, westbrooks, etc. leads by example.


shit aint close.

[Im Still Ballin]

Lebron: leads slightly in RS statz, but gets styled on by likes of terry, marion, kawhi, iggy, etc. humiliated by anyone with a decent jumper.

Kobe: cruises through regular season, but amps up in the playoffs, takes tough assignments when necessary ie. rondo's, westbrooks, etc. leads by example.


shit aint close.
This is not what the data suggests.

[tpols]

This is not what the data suggests.

eye test, bro.

apply yourself.

[Im Still Ballin]

eye test, bro.

apply yourself.
This is also not what the data suggests

Clearly evident by the DPOY career votings

I covered objective as well as subjective measures

Your hypothesis is incorrect

Although not true subjectivity, DPOY rankings is about as close as we can get to an objective measurement of semi subjective measures

[guy]

LeBron a runner-up as an achievement? Seems like familiar ground for him

:oldlol: seriously. Lebron fans have brainwashed themselves to actually believing that 2nd place is just as good as 1st.

[ImKobe]

This is also not what the data suggests

Clearly evident by the DPOY career votings

I covered objective as well as subjective measures

Your hypothesis is incorrect

Although not true subjectivity, DPOY rankings is about as close as we can get to an objective measurement of semi subjective measures

tied for most defensive first teams in NBA history

finished top 5 in DPOY voting 3 times in his career

locked down prime AI for a whole half

when was the last time you saw Lebron play full court defense like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTITRJp2bhI

not many players had the ability to play full court defense like that.

[Marchesk]

tied for most defensive first teams in NBA history

finished top 5 in DPOY voting 3 times in his career

locked down prime AI for a whole half

when was the last time you saw Lebron play full court defense like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTITRJp2bhI

not many players had the ability to play full court defense like that.

All that's impressive, but Kobe just doesn't rate that high on the latest advanced defensive stat. He's no Hersey Hawkings.

[COnDEMnED]

Getting his shit pushed in by the J.J Mother ****ing Barea system is pretty underrated.

[ImKobe]

All that's impressive, but Kobe just doesn't rate that high on the latest advanced defensive stat. He's no Hersey Hawkings.

Defensive stats can be misleading of a player's individual ability. Lebron has played in the EC and on more stacked teams on that end that allow less points per possession. The Lakers were always decent but not elite on that end.

Larry Bird led the regular season in Defensive Win Shares 4 times in his career, 3 times in the Playoffs. Is he individually better than Lebron or Kobe on that end? Doubtful.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe 1996: Didn't place
Kobe 1997: Didn't place
Kobe 1998: Didn't place
Kobe 1999: Didn't place
Kobe 2000: 5th
Kobe 2001: 11th
Kobe 2002: 3rd
Kobe 2003: 8th
Kobe 2004: 10th
Kobe 2005: Didn't place
Kobe 2006: Didn't place
Kobe 2007: 24th
Kobe 2008: 5th
Kobe 2009: 7th
Kobe 2010: 12th
Kobe 2011: 11th
Kobe 2012: Didn't place
Kobe 2013: Didn't place
Kobe 2014: Didn't place
Kobe 2015: Didn't place
Kobe 2016: Didn't place

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

Kobe in years placed average position: 10th

LeBron in years placed average position: 6th

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 50.7 (48637 minutes played)

LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 58.4 (38478 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.6

LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +1.9

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5), is on par with LeBron's 8th best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5)

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 105
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 102

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

//

Even the most objective subjective analysis hands down favors LeBron

The only thing that won't favor LeBron is the opinion (subjective) of Kobe stans

LeBron is visually and empirically a better defender

[El Gato Negro]

A lot of people didn't notice but brans defensive numbers were right up there with kawhi this year.

[ImKobe]

https://j.gifs.com/n5oPB7.gif

[Smoke117]

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

Lebron is better than Kobe defensively...water is wet.

[AintNoSunshine]

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

Hey OP can you do Curry's?

[Im Still Ballin]

Hey OP can you do Curry's?
Ok


2010: Didn't place
2011: Didn't place
2012: Didn't place
2013: Didn't place
2014: Didn't place
2015: Didn't place
2016: Didn't place

[Gileraracer]

Lebron has ZERO DPOY awards. Reason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9wLWF8TXo)

[sportjames23]

LeBron a runner-up as an achievement? Seems like familiar ground for him

DAMN :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude was robbed in 2012-2013, didn't want to give him the MVP/DPOTY Combo.. ultra dominance.

[knicksman]

meltdown. LOL these awards wont make up for 2/6. So just deal with it brah.

[knicksman]

the only thing bran is good at on the defensive end is letting defensive players feast on him and win finals mvp:oldlol: .

One of the most overrated players. EAsy to defend so its no surprise hes 2/6:lol

[Magic 32]

Once again Lebron stans are celebrating almost winning something.

[INDI]

He wasn't deserving of #2. He was only that high because of people in the media wanting the story of his greatness rather than LeBron actually earning it. The story of his career.

This.


The nba loves storylines and was doing they best to push it. If you put someone in a fish bowl and start analyzing what you see, you'll start to see all types of stuff you didn't see before.

The true DPOY's are barely recognized because they got other people in that fish bowl. How does Ibaka have no DPOY's when he was the best defensive player for about 3 years in a row?

The nba has a fascination right now with Draymond Green, so now his name is on the list of the fish bowl players. As good as he is there are a dozen people that are better defenders than him but they not the sexy pick. He even got a couple votes as MVP runner up this year! Where they do that at??

[Lebron23]

Great Thread. LeBron is better than Kobe defensively.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's 2002 and 2009-2011 especially were a joke... how the **** did this guy end up near the top 10 in 2010 and 2011? :roll:

Dude was terrible, got worse by the year.

[Lebron23]

Kobe's 2002 and 2009-2011 especially were a joke... how the **** did this guy end up near the top 10 in 2010 and 2011? :roll:

Dude was terrible, got worse by the year.


This

Those people who voted for him needs a new pair of glasses and contact lenses.

[JebronLames]

Kobe stans getting Rekt. Nothing new here.

[Lebron23]

Kobe stans getting Rekt. Nothing new here.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/fCcI_R.gif

[Magic 32]

http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/fCcI_R.gif

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L2bhRrOAI-0/maxresdefault.jpg

[knicksman]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L2bhRrOAI-0/maxresdefault.jpg

:oldlol: most disrespected superstar

[Lebron23]

At least LeBron was never punched in the face. 6'1" Chris Childs hit him with some clean punches.

[Magic 32]

At least LeBron was never punched in the face. 6'1" Chris Childs hit him with some clean punches.

Not suprising that a pale midget value sucker punches so much.

[knicksman]

At least LeBron was never punched in the face. 6'1" Chris Childs hit him with some clean punches.

kobe pissed childs while its the other way around for bran. And still got laughed at. Most disrespected superstar same with his stans on ish:lol

[Disaprine]

LeBron a runner-up as an achievement? Seems like familiar ground for him
:lebroncry:

[Im Still Ballin]

Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of -14.1% (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...?sort=GP&dir=1

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of -12.6%

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...USMINUS&dir=-1

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%

The best rim protection % on the Cavs

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...&sort=GP&dir=1

...

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages...
2.3 Blocks a game
2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages
2.3 Steals a game
1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game

LeBron had the second highest playoff DPM (5.8) in a championship winning playoff run of all time only behind Ben Wallace in '04 (6.0)

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe 1996: Didn't place
Kobe 1997: Didn't place
Kobe 1998: Didn't place
Kobe 1999: Didn't place
Kobe 2000: 5th
Kobe 2001: 11th
Kobe 2002: 3rd
Kobe 2003: 8th
Kobe 2004: 10th
Kobe 2005: Didn't place
Kobe 2006: Didn't place
Kobe 2007: 24th
Kobe 2008: 5th
Kobe 2009: 7th
Kobe 2010: 12th
Kobe 2011: 11th
Kobe 2012: Didn't place
Kobe 2013: Didn't place
Kobe 2014: Didn't place
Kobe 2015: Didn't place
Kobe 2016: Didn't place

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

Kobe in years placed average position: 10th

LeBron in years placed average position: 6th

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 50.7 (48637 minutes played)

LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 58.4 (38478 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.6

LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +1.9

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5), is on par with LeBron's 8th best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5)

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 105
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 102

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

//

Even the most objective subjective analysis hands down favors LeBron

The only thing that won't favor LeBron is the opinion (subjective) of Kobe stans

LeBron is visually and empirically a better defender

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

This can't be true. Kobe's only ever been in the top 4 once in 20 years!:lol

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)


I don't understand this hating on Kobe. I ****ing love Kobe, more than anyone on this site, but lebron has probably surpassed Kobe without any doubt at all after this season.

Kobe's arguement has absolutely nothing to do with defense, using his dpoy if the year rankings to show he is bad makes him look better than he is (06 Kobe was atrocious on that end, though great in flashes when he actually tried)

Lebron otoh is a absolutely amazing perimeter defender because he can do stuff no other perimeter player ever could do with his ridiculous athleticism, particularly in 09.

The thing is while he does have lapses because he isn't as locked in as other great defenders, he more than makes up for it with his unique defensive plays.

2009, with lebron on the court, the cavs were better on defense than the magic with Dwight on the court

With him off the court, they were worse than the mavs on D.

Btw, if someone thinks me saying this makes me think LEBRON is a better defender than Dwight, my answer is **** no, dwights a better defender (at their primes and peaks) but still. It shows good defensive impact.

Fell off in 2014, came back in 2016