Kareem is the GOAT

[AirBonner]

six time MVP, six time NBA champion, the all time leader in points, a 19 time all star, possibly the greatest passing big man and one of the greatest interior defenders of all time.

1962-66 Sets a record for most points (2,067) and most rebounds (2,002) by a high school player in New York City 1966 Receives a New York State Regents' scholarship; accepts a scholarship to UCLA 1967-69 Named to first team, All-America; named most outstanding player, National College Athletic Association tournament 1967, 1969 Named college player of the year by Sporting News, United Press International, Associated Press, and U.S. Basketball Writers Association; named national player of the year 1969 Received Naismith Award; graduated as the leading scorer in the history of University of California at Los Angeles 1970 Named National Basketball Association Rookie of the Year 1970-77, 1979-89 Played in National Basketball Association All-Star Games 1971-72 Led National Basketball Association in scoring 1971-72, 1974, 1976-77, 1980 Named league's most valuable player 1971, 1985 Named most valuable player of National Basketball Association playoffs 1971-77, 1980-81, 1984, 1986, Named to All-NBA First Team 1974-75, 1979-81 Named to All-Defensive First Team 1975-76, 1979-80 Led National Basketball Association in blocked shots 1976 Led National Basketball Association in rebounds 1980 Named to the National Basketball Association thirty-fifth anniversary all-time team 1984 Broke Wilt Chamberlain's career scoring record of 31,419 points; broke Jerry West's all-time playoff scoring record 1985 Named Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year 1989 Retired with National Basketball Association career records for most minutes (57,446), most points (38,387), most field goals, and first player to play for 20 seasons 1996 Named to the National Basketball Association fiftieth anniversary all-time team 1995 Enshrined in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame on May 15

GOAT

[DingDengDong]

I have him at #2.

[Born Sinner]

Fake celtics fan calling an ex laker the GOAT

:lol

[AirBonner]

Fake celtics fan calling an ex laker the GOAT

:lol
Looking at it in a neutral way you can begin to APPRECIATE how good players actually are. Perhaps you will get there one day.

[stephanieg]

After Robertson left he didn't do anything in the 70s during his prime, despite the league being watered down due to the ABA. He got killed by Walton, a white hippie who dropped acid at halftime. He was cold, aloof, and enigmatic.

He was good in Airplane, though.

[CAstill]

Still not better than Jordan

[AirBonner]

Still not better than Jordan
care to explain?

[CAstill]

care to explain?


What is there to explain? Jordan at his peak was an impact unheard-of. Just because Kareem accumulated similar accolades doesn't mean he had the impact Jordan had. 2 different 3peats back to back with every finals mvp to boot. Arguably the most skilled player of all time which translates to success. Jordan always better.

[AirBonner]

What is there to explain? Jordan at his peak was an impact unheard-of. Just because Kareem accumulated similar accolades doesn't mean he had the impact Jordan had. 2 different 3peats back to back with every finals mvp to boot. Arguably the most skilled player of all time which translates to success. Jordan always better.
Jordan has less mvp seasons then Kareem in arguably the most watered down era. Meanwhile there were less teams in Kareem's day but the talent was a lot more concentrated making for tougher competition. Kareem in his rookie year took the bucks from 27 wins to 56.

[LAZERUSS]

After Robertson left he didn't do anything in the 70s during his prime, despite the league being watered down due to the ABA. He got killed by Walton, a white hippie who dropped acid at halftime. He was cold, aloof, and enigmatic.

He was good in Airplane, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was


Kareem: 30.3 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg on 60.8 %FG/66.0 %TS

Walton: 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg on 50.7 %FG/51.7 %TS

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357931

[AirBonner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357931
:applause: people make up anything.

[LAZERUSS]

KAJ (Alcindor) was clearly the GOAT College basketball player.

Three straight NCAA Titles and Tourney MVPs.

His teams went 88-2 in his career.

Those two losses were by margins of 71-69 and 46-44. BTW, that first loss was to Elvin Hayes and the undefeated Houston Cougars at the Astrodome. That Cougar win propelled them to #1, where they would remain until the rematch in the NCAA Semis. In the rematch, the Bruins slaughtered Houston, 101-69, and in a game that was not even that close. UCLA led by 44 points midway in the second half.

Incidently, freshmen were not allowed to play varsity ball at that time, so Alcindor was denied an almost sure 4th straight title. Interesting too, was that the Bruins were the defending national champions going into Alcindor's freshmen season, and were ranked #1 when Alcindor's freshmen team played the varsity. Alcindor dominated the game, and the freshmen team beat the varsity. As it would turn out, the Bruin varsity was only a good team, going 18-8, and missing the NCAA tournament. The next year they started four sophs, including Alcindor, went 30-0, and won a dominating NCAA championship.

[JBSptfn]

Personally, I think that Wilt and Oscar Robertson are the best players ever. However, Kareem is top 10, definitely.

[Marchesk]

Makes you wonder why Kareem wasn't the next Russell in the 70s. Maybe because the league expanded and there was more competition?

[LAZERUSS]

Makes you wonder why Kareem wasn't the next Russell in the 70s. Maybe because the league expanded and there was more competition?

I have posted on this exact topic before...

Kareem's college career was the greatest ever. He won three straight NC's, and it would have been four had freshmen been allowed to play.

He was drafted by a pretty bad Milwaukee expansion team that had gone 27-55, too. But, the Bucks also had Bobby Dandridge, and added a few other key pieces, and in his rookie season, they jumped up to a 56-26 record. And by the second half of his rookie season, KAJ was already the best player in the league. And he would put up his highest scoring post-season in that rookie season, as well.

In his second year, the Bucks acquired Oscar, and then proceeded to just annihilate the NBA. Late in the season they were sitting at 65-12, and had a scoring differential of +13.6 ppg. They slipped a little down the stretch, and wound up 66-16, with a then record +12.2 ppg differential. BTW, they also outshot their opposition from the floor by a staggering .509 to .424 margin...an NBA record.

Kareem was slowed a little by Thurmond in the first round, but easily outplayed him, and the Bucks blew out the Warriors, 4-1.

However, in the next round, Kareem would face a past-his-prime Wilt, who was a year removed from major knee surgery, and had the worst season of his career.

Wilt stunned Kareem, and by all accounts outplayed him. Statistically it was a near draw, but Chamberlain held a 3-1-1 record in individual battles. However, Chamberlain's two best teammates, Baylor and West, both missed the playoffs, and the Bucks easily dispatched Wilt's Lakers, 4-1. Interesting though, that in the clinching Bucks win, that when Wilt left the floor in the last minute, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE.

Alcindor then led a sweep of Unseld's Bullets in the Finals, and he would win the FMVP. BTW, the Bucks went 12-2 in the post-season, outscored their opposition by a +14.5 ppg, and outshot them by a .497 to .395 margin.

As had been the case in Kareem's college career, here was Alcindor dominating the league, winning an MVP, a FMVP, and a ring...all in his second season.

Continued...

[eliteballer]

But but Kareem isn't sponsored by Nike and McDonalds.

[LAZERUSS]

Going into the '71-72 season, Kareem (he had changed his name in the off-season), and his young Bucks were universally predicted to not only repeat, but were being tagged as the next great dynasty.

Meanwhile, the Lakers were coming off of an injury-racked 48-34 season, and were starting four players who were between 29-37. They had also brought in a new coach, Bill Sharman. Virtually no one gave the ancient Lakers a second glance.

Not only that, but Sharman's first order of business, was to have the Lakers RUN. Which was considered a joke at the time. A bunch of injury-prone geezers playing at a fast pace? Well, his philosophy was to defensively funnel everything into Wilt, and have Chamberlain not only rebound, but to start the break with outlet passes.

Problem was...Baylor. He was washed up, and in fact, had been washed up for a couple of years. Sharman "convinced" Baylor to retire, and then he inserted second year Jim McMillian into the starting lineup. And the rest was history. Right after Baylor "retired", the Lakers reeled off 33 straight wins, and 23 of them were double-digit wins.

One of those wins came early in the season, when the 16-3 Lakers played the 17-2 Bucks in Los Angeles. Despite a massive game from KAJ, the Lakers eked out a win.

Again, no one gave it much thought...except the Bucks. They realized that they didn't have a match-up for the Lakers PF, Happy Hairston, so they shipped off the lightening quick Greg Smith, and brought in the rugged Curtis Perry.

The two teams would continue to ransack the league until a H2H in early January in Milwaukee. The Lakers were riding that 33 game winning streak, and came in at 39-3, while the Bucks were at 35-8.

Arguably the greatest regular season game in NBA history (although this year's Warriors-Spurs H2H's were right there.) The game was close until the 4th quarter, when the Bucks finally pulled away for a 120-104 win. And again, Kareem easily outplayed Wilt.

All was right with the world. The Bucks were now back on track to steamroll the rest of the league, and the mild Laker threat had been squashed.

Continued...

[AirBonner]

Going into the '71-72 season, Kareem (he had changed his name in the off-season), and his young Bucks were universally predicted to not only repeat, but were being tagged as the next great dynasty.

Meanwhile, the Lakers were coming off of an injury-racked 48-34 season, and were starting four players who were between 29-37. They had also brought in a new coach, Bill Sharman. Virtually no one gave the ancient Lakers a second glance.

Not only that, but Sharman's first order of business, was to have the Lakers RUN. Which was considered a joke at the time. A bunch of injury-prone geezers playing at a fast pace? Well, his philosophy was to defensively funnel everything into Wilt, and have Chamberlain not only rebound, but to start the break with outlet passes.

Problem was...Baylor. He was washed up, and in fact, had been washed up for a couple of years. Sharman "convinced" Baylor to retire, and then he inserted second year Jim McMillian into the starting lineup. And the rest was history. Right after Baylor "retired", the Lakers reeled off 33 straight wins, and 23 of them were double-digit wins.

One of those wins came early in the season, when the 16-3 Lakers played the 17-2 Bucks in Los Angeles. Despite a massive game from KAJ, the Lakers eked out a win.

Again, no one gave it much thought...except the Bucks. They realized that they didn't have a match-up for the Lakers PF, Happy Hairston, so they shipped off the lightening quick Greg Smith, and brought in the rugged Curtis Perry.

The two teams would continue to ransack the league until a H2H in early January in Milwaukee. The Lakers were riding that 33 game winning streak, and came in at 39-3, while the Bucks were at 35-8.

Arguably the greatest regular season game in NBA history (although this year's Warriors-Spurs H2H's were right there.) The game was close until the 4th quarter, when the Bucks finally pulled away for a 120-104 win. And again, Kareem easily outplayed Wilt.

All was right with the world. The Bucks were now back on track to steamroll the rest of the league, and the mild Laker threat had been squashed.

Continued...
Thank you for posting that. That was truly some great basketball being played between two greats. :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

The pesky Lakers would just not go away. They regrouped after that Buck loss, and started a roll again. They would face the Bucks three more times, and whipped them in all three, including a blowout win in a game in which KAJ poured in 50 points against Wilt.

Despite the 4-1 record over Milwaukee, most everyone was picking the Bucks to dominate in the post-season. The Lakers did set a then single season record of 69-13 (Milwaukee went 63-19.)

Kareem had just overwhelmed the league. He again ran away with the scoring title, at 34.8 ppg, and he was a runaway MVP for the second straight season in his three year career. He was on top of the world.

The Lakers would sweep the 57-25 Bulls in the first round. Meanwhile, for the first time in KAJ's career, there was a crack. Granted, Thurmond had gave him some lessons early on in KAJ's career, but by the '71 playoffs, Kareem had easily outplayed him.

BUT, something strange happened in the '72 first round series against the Warriors. Thurmond rose up and not only held KAJ down, he outplayed him. In fact, he oustcored him, per game, 25.0 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot Kareem by a .437 to .405 margin. Yes, the great Kareem had been held to a .405 playoff series. Still, the Bucks had a decided edge in talent, and they romped over the Warriors 4-1. Which would set up one of the most anticipated match-ups in NBA history.

Despite the Lakers having HCA, the odds-makers opened up with the Bucks as a slight favorite. That would take a dramatic turn after game one. In the third quarter of game one, a Laker team that had averaged 121 ppg in the regular season...scored eight points. Kareem dominated Wilt, and the Bucks blew out LA, 93-72.

The Bucks were now strong favorites to win the series. Game two came down to a possible Laker turnover, that hit a referee, and in which it prevented a back court violation. The Lakers held on for a 135-134 win.

Still, the Bucks were now heading back to Milwaukee for two games, and Kareem was having his way with Wilt. That would change. Chamberlain suddenly became "Rocky" to Kareem's "Clubber Lang", and the series took a turn...

Continued...

[Smoke117]

You are right...he is.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

In game three, Chamberlain suddenly used his massive weight and strength against Kareem. And he would not only beat Kareem to his favorite spots, he was pushing him away from them.

Not only that, but he blocked a couple of Kareem's skyhooks, and a stunned Kareem was reeling. The easy baskets that Kareem had scored against Wilt throughout the regular season, and then the first two games of this series, were nowhere to be found. Chamberlain challenged everything Kareem was throwing up. And while Kareem still outscored Wilt, 33-7 (and outrebounded him, 21-14), he was missing shots badly. Chamberlain not only held Kareem to 15-37 from the field, he blocked 10 shots, and six of them were KAJ's. And the Lakers stunned the Bucks, 108-105.

Milwaukee responded with a vengeance in game four, and blew out LA, 114-88. However, Kareem was now struggling significantly. He again outscored Wilt, 31-5, but his shooting was still way off...going 14-33.

The series shifted back to Los Angeles, and the Lakers dominated game five from start to finish. And Kareem looked shell-shocked in a 115-90 loss. He had scored 28 points, but on a brick-laying 13-33 shooting, and four of Wilt's nine blocks came at Abdul-Jabbar's expense.

Game six went back to Milwaukee. And for the first time in Kareem's career, including college, he and his team looked human. Still, they led 85-75 going into the 4th quarter...

Page 244 from Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers...


Then Chamberlain single-handedly revived his team. He blocked a layup attempt by Lucius Allen, then dove to the floor as he batted the ball to Jerry West.

"Wilt hit the floor with a thunderous crash," said KC Jones. "It felt like the whole world was collapsing."

On the next possession, West missed still another jumper, but Chamberlain was there to capture the rebound and violently slam the ball through the ring.

Wilt's extra hustle is what got us charged up," said Jimmy Cleamons, "After that, Wilt and Jerry took over the game."

In the last nine minutes, Chamberlain contributed two more dunks, a tip-in, three free throws, and six rebounds. West suddenly folund his stroke and scored 12 points in the final six minutes of play.

While Wilt and the Lakers were surging, Abdul-Jabbar was wilting. He tallied on five points in the concluding ten minutes of the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[92] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104

[COnDEMnED]

Although an unpopular opinion among the young and casuals (Bron fans), I can see the reasoning behind this opinion. I considered this point of view valid, especially when taking into account the combination of his college dominance with his NBA resume and longevity. He also has 2 rings as an assistant coach.

Lew or Jordan at number 1, both are acceptable.

[Edgar Friendly]

Kareem is the indisputable GOAT basketball player

Jordan is the GOAT NBA player

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Chamberlain would go on to lead the Lakers to their first ever title in Los Angeles, winning the FMVP in the process.

Meanwhile, a Kareem that had been considered invulnerable, had been beaten down in two straight playoff series. Furthermore, the Bucks had their "dynasty" ended after only one year.

And it would get worse.

Kareem would continue to struggle against Thurmond and Wilt in his regular season H2H's in the 72-73 season. In fact, in his six H2H's with Wilt, he only shot 50%+ in two of them, and was downright awful in the other four. Chamberlain even outscored him in one H2H, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27. Overall, Kareem shot .450 against Wilt in those six games...and if you go back to the last four games of the '72 WCF's, when he shot .414...his combined FG% in those ten straight games was .434.

Still, both the Bucks and Lakers went 60-22 during the regular season, but Milwaukee had the higher seed based on a late season win over Wilt's Lakers (in a game in which Wilt did not take a shot...while Kareem went 12-31.)

That "win" was actually a loss. The Bucks drew Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors in the first round. And for the second consecutive post-season, Thurmond held Kareem to 22.8 ppg...this time on a .428 FG%. And the Warriors stunned the Bucks, 4-2.

The Lakers survived their first round series against the Bulls, and then Chamberlain outplayed Thurmond in the WCF's, as LA blew out the Warriors, 4-1.

Chamberlain's Lakers would ultimately fall to the 57-25 Knicks and their six HOFers in the Finals...albeit, all four losses were decided in the final minute. And unknown to anyone at the time...that was Wilt's last game (23-21 BTW.)

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Makes you wonder why Kareem wasn't the next Russell in the 70s. Maybe because the league expanded and there was more competition?

Kareem had come into the NBA, and immediately dominated it. By his second season he won a scoring title, and the MVP, as well as leading his team to a 66-16 record, and then a 12-2 record in the post-season, including a sweep and a FMVP in the Finals.

And during the 71-72 regular season, he continued to just overwhelm the league. Virtually all "expert" opinion had he and the Bucks with a dynasty in the 70's.

Then the '72 post-season happened, and IMHO, he never recovered. And again, his struggles continued into the '73 season.


Still, by the '73-74 season, Chamberlain had jumped ship to the ABA (and would ultimately retire.) On top of that, Thurmond was falling apart, and would never be the same again.

So, the assumption was, that Kareem and Bucks would get back on the horse, and resume command. And it certainly appeared that way going into the '74 Finals. The Bucks had gone 59-23, and had HCA going up against the 56-26 Celtics. Not only that, but up to that point in their career H2H's, Kareem had just massacred Cowens. In his '72 season alone, he averaged 45 ppg against him, including a career high 55 point game.

And Kareem played well going into game seven. He had a great game six, and hit the game-winner to knot the series. And with game seven in Milwaukee, all looked bright. BUT, Cowens rose up, and despite five fouls going into the 4th quarter, he badly outplayed Kareem down the stretch, in a blowout win.

Oscar retired shortly after that, and Kareem and the Bucks would fall to 38-44 the very next year, and miss the playoffs.

He basically asked to be traded, and was sent to the Lakers, who had gone 30-52 the year before. The once overwhelming Kareem did not come over though. He went thru the motions, and the Lakers finished 40-42 and missed the playoffs.

The Lakers gave him more help going into the '76-77 season, and they finished with best record in the west at 53-29. Still, they were injury-riddled, and despite a mammoth series against Walton's 49-33 Blazers, they were swept.

After that season, Kareem became more of a sulking loner. The Lakers did their best. They acquired Keith (Jamall) Wilkes, and then the 27 ppg scorer Adrian Dantley. But the chemistry was awful, and KAJ continued to play unmotivated basketball. LA would go a disappointing 45-37 and get routed in the first round by a Sonics team with one borderline HOF player.

More of the same the very next year. LA probably had the most talented roster in the league, but only went 47-35, and were again routed by the Sonics, this time in the second round.

Kareem was contemplating retirement, and at that time, despite winning a boat-load of MVPs, his career was considered a disappointment.

Then...MAGIC arrived...and the rest was history.

[Asukal]

With only 2 FMVP's? No. :no:

[warriorfan]

Jordan has less mvp seasons then Kareem in arguably the most watered down era. Meanwhile there were less teams in Kareem's day but the talent was a lot more concentrated making for tougher competition. Kareem in his rookie year took the bucks from 27 wins to 56.

expansion 90's > cocaine 70's

[Marchesk]

Good read Laz. I wonder why Kareem lost his motivation during the 70s.

[LAZERUSS]

Good read Laz. I wonder why Kareem lost his motivation during the 70s.

There were a lot of things going on in Kareem's life in the 70's. He changed his religion, which not only caused a split with his parents, but soon afterwards, there was a mob-style murder of several people associated with his Islamic teacher at a townhouse that he had given them. Shortly after that he and his first wife split up.

In his last season in Milwaukee he broke his hand after getting his eye scratched, and missed 16 games.

And a few years after he was traded to the Lakers he again broke his hand, this time hitting Kent Benson, and missed 20 games.

It would be hard to pin-point the exact time that he began losing the motivation, but my guess is probably in his last season in Milwaukee (74-75.) Oscar had retired, which was a huge loss, but that doesn't explain the fact that he played one year before Oscar arrived, and had carried a last-place roster to 56 wins, and then put up his highest ppg playoff average of his career...all in his rookie season. In the 74-75 season, and again missing 16 games with a broken hand, the Bucks record with him was still only 35-31.

Of course, it was at around that time that he asked to be traded, preferably to Los Angeles. And Milwaukee reluctantly did so. And if you were looking for when his domination began to wane, that was it.

I have pointed this out before, but in KAJ's peak regular season, 1971-72 (BTW, you could make a case that he was even greater in 70-71 but played less mpg)...he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the field (again...in '70-71 it was 40.3 mpg, 31.7 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, and shot .577 from the floor.) In that 71-72 season, the Bucks went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. Wilt gets ripped by some for playing every minute of his 61-62 season, but at least with Chamberlain, he pretty much played 46-48 mpg his entire prime.

Let me reiterate... 44.2 mpg, on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg. Obviously, he was putting up numbers in blowouts.

In the '75-76 trade to the Lakers, Kareem joined a team that had gone 30-52 the year before (and of course, had lost players to get him.) And this is where it becomes interesting. For those that claimed that Kareem could have challenged Wilt's scoring records, this was an opportunity to prove it. He was now being asked to carry a mediocre roster.

What happened? He only played 41.2 mpg, could only average 27.7 ppg, and only shot .529 from the field. He did lead the league in rpg for the only time in his career, but even that needs some context. The truly great rebounders had retired. Guys like Wilt and Thurmond were gone, or basically done. The 6-9 Dave Cowens came in second at 16.0 rpg, followed by the 6-6 Unseld at 13.3, the 6-7 Paul Silas at 12.7, and an ordinary center, the 6-10 Sam Lacey was at 12.6. Those guys were putting up similar numbers in the Wilt-Nate era, so it is not like something dramatically changed.

Same with scoring, as well. While the overall ppg's declined slightly in the mid-70's, Maravich put up a 31.1 ppg season, and McAdoo had three straight seasons of 30.6 ppg, 34.5 ppg, and 31.1 ppg. And McAdoo's 31.1 ppg season was the season in which Kareem averaged 27.7 ppg (and the next year Maravich was at 31.1.)

So the head-scratcher was this. Why couldn't a seemingly more prime Kareem, not have put up anything close to what a peak Kareem actually did? Not only that, but he couldn't come close in mpg, either. Again, I have read those that ripped Wilt for being a "selfish stats-padder", but clearly, the same could have applied to Kareem in 71-72. He was putting up 35 ppg in 44 mpg, on a team that was blowing out their opposition. BUT, when his team NEEDED him to produce those numbers, as the '75-76 Lakers clearly needed him to do so, he either couldn't, or didn't want to.

Continued...

[AirFederer]

Top 5

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

The result...the '75-76 Lakers went 40-42 and missed the playoffs. Now, don't get me wrong. KAJ's 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, and .529 FG% would be considered a great season for nearly anyone else who has ever played the game. But it was a "down" year for him.

The next year the Lakers gave Kareem some help, and LA had the best record in the league, at 53-29. However, by the time the playoffs rolled around, the Lakers were banged up. They had lost their PF earlier in the season, and never replaced him. Then, they had injuries to their two starting guards.

And this again brings up the enigma that was Kareem. He had arguably his best post-season run of his career (albeit, his rookie season playoff ppg was higher.) He single-handedly beat the Warriors in a seven game series in the first round. Just magnificent efforts. He averaged 37.1 ppg in that series, and had four games of 40+.

Then, with very little help, Kareem took his injury-riddled roster up against a peaking 49-33 Blazers team led by Bill Walton and Maurice Lucas. And again, KAJ came huge....averaging 30.3 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and on a .606 FG%. But alas, with his teammates vastly over-matched, they were swept.

The Lakers then went all out to get Kareem help. His 77-78 and 78-79 rosters were clearly the most talented in the league. They acquired Keith (Jamaal) Wilkes, and then in-season they added Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him. On paper this team was stacked.

But for all the talent, they lacked chemistry...and they lacked a motivated Kareem. As I mentioned earlier, he would again break his hand, and missed 20 games (and the Lakers could only go 8-12 without him.) The team floundered and finished 45-37. And then they were wiped out in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team with one borderline HOFer (Dennis Johnson.)

Same thing in '78-79. With all that talent, and now healthy, they still only went 47-35, and were routed 4-1 by the same Sonics team in the second round.

Continued...

[Smoke117]

KAJ > Wilt...get over it laz.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

So, for his ten seasons in the decade of the 70's, and in a league that became weaker by the mid-70's (yes, even with the ABA merger), Kareem's teams went to two Finals, and won one ring.

Now, you certainly couldn't blame Kareem for much of that. And he won five MVP's in that decade (and would add a sixth in '79-80.) But one thing was clear. The Abdul-Jabbar (Alcindor) that came into the league, was not the Kareem that was going thru the motions in the last half of the decade.

I have long maintained that a PEAK Kareem was from mid-way thru his rookie season (and keep in mind that he played four years of college ball and was 22 in his rookie season), including the playoffs, then thru the entire '71 season, including the post-season, and then may have completely peaked in the '72 regular season.

However, beginning with being outplayed by Thurmond in the first round of the '72 playoffs, and then being intimidated and physically beaten by Wilt in the next round (and ultimately running out of gas as his defending champions were routed in game five, and fell apart in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six)...he was never the same again.

Interesting, though, that a motivated Kareem would show up periodically. When Bill Walton came into the league, Kareem just annihilated him with games of 48 and 50 points. And again, in the '77 WCF's, Walton and his swarming teammates were still pounded by Kareem.

Later in his career, when an Olajuwon or Ewing were being projected as the next dominating centers, ...Kareem would go out and hang games of 40, 40, 43, and 46 points on them.

As far as motivation, or work ethic...don't take my word for it.

Just watch Airplane...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ


IMHO, Kareem was as close to Chamberlain in terms of raw domination as any player who has ever played the game. And I believe that a peak KAJ could have put up 40 ppg seasons.

But, for whatever reasons, he just lacked the drive to become even better. And instead, often went thru the motions.

If it hadn't been for Magic, I suspect that Kareem would have retired in the early to mid-80's, and his career would have been labeled as a disappointment.

[dankok8]

We've been over this many times. My views differ with Laz on a few points but I won't rehash it again except to say that Kareem has a definite case for GOAT.


I will just say about the 1978 and 1979 Lakers, they had a lot of offensive talent with Nixon at PG and Dantley and Wilkes at SF and PF but that team had major weaknesses. They were near the bottom of the league in rebounding and had little defense on the perimeter. Nixon and Dantley didn't play a lick of defense. Young Dantley was widely known as a chemistry killer and getting rid of him helped the Lakers A LOT. Of course getting Magic didn't hurt and also Chones/Haywood who would help with rebounding and play some defense and allowing Wilkes to switch over to SF which was his most natural position.

[mr4speed]

Continuing...

So, for his ten seasons in the decade of the 70's, and in a league that became weaker by the mid-70's (yes, even with the ABA merger), Kareem's teams went to two Finals, and won one ring.

Now, you certainly couldn't blame Kareem for much of that. And he won five MVP's in that decade (and would add a sixth in '79-80.) But one thing was clear. The Abdul-Jabbar (Alcindor) that came into the league, was not the Kareem that was going thru the motions in the last half of the decade.

I have long maintained that a PEAK Kareem was from mid-way thru his rookie season (and keep in mind that he played four years of college ball and was 22 in his rookie season), including the playoffs, then thru the entire '71 season, including the post-season, and then may have completely peaked in the '72 regular season.

However, beginning with being outplayed by Thurmond in the first round of the '72 playoffs, and then being intimidated and physically beaten by Wilt in the next round (and ultimately running out of gas as his defending champions were routed in game five, and fell apart in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six)...he was never the same again.

Interesting, though, that a motivated Kareem would show up periodically. When Bill Walton came into the league, Kareem just annihilated him with games of 48 and 50 points. And again, in the '77 WCF's, Walton and his swarming teammates were still pounded by Kareem.

Later in his career, when an Olajuwon or Ewing were being projected as the next dominating centers, ...Kareem would go out and hang games of 40, 40, 43, and 46 points on them.

As far as motivation, or work ethic...don't take my word for it.

Just watch Airplane...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2A194yTWoQ


IMHO, Kareem was as close to Chamberlain in terms of raw domination as any player who has ever played the game. And I believe that a peak KAJ could have put up 40 ppg seasons.

But, for whatever reasons, he just lacked the drive to become even better. And instead, often went thru the motions.

If it hadn't been for Magic, I suspect that Kareem would have retired in the early to mid-80's, and his career would have been labeled as a disappointment.

Thanks for sharing - that was a great read! I have to find Rosen's book on the Lakers.

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks for sharing - that was a great read! I have to find Rosen's book on the Lakers.

Rosen's book was a very good read. And he was right about the fact that after that Laker season, (really after Wilt retired the very next year)...that the NBA as a whole declined. Those games between KAJ and Wilt were all televised live, which was very unusual for that period. But, by the late 70's, games were either tape-delayed, or not even televised. I remember avoiding the late news, so that I could stay after 11:30 pm and watch the tape-delayed games between the Lakers and Sonics in the '80 post-season.

One thing about Rosen, though, is that he was not a fan of Wilt. And it begins early on his book, in which he completely blew the game seven recap of the '69 Finals...all in an attempt to disparage Chamberlain.

BUT, even he reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was WILT that carried that great Laker team that year.

BTW, I watched every game between Kareem and Wilt (as well as the Finals) that year, and I rank that Chamberlain season, and post-season, near the top of his career. Obviously he was a 35 year old, 300 lber, playing on a surgically repaired knee, and nowhere near the player he was in his prime. Yet, he chopped down a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and I noted earlier, basically ended what many had predicted would be a dynasty to rival the Celtic's of the 60's.

You could also make a case for his '71 season...which was, by far, the worst of his career. The injury and subsequent surgery from the year before took it's toll in the '71 season. Wilt's numbers were still exceptional, but way below what his norm had been.

BUT, he faced a peak Kareem five times in the regular season, and another five times in the WCF's, and statistically matched him. In fact, those the recaps from the '71 WCF's give Wilt about a 3-1-1 edge in the five games. However, Chamberlain was missing both West and Baylor in that series, and his Lakers were badly over-matched. Still, he had battled a Kareem that had just overwhelmed the league to a draw. Furthermore, it was really the first time in KAJ's entire basketball career that he was being outplayed. True, Thurmond outplayed him early in their career H2H's, and even Chamberlain pounded him in their one H2H before Chamberlain shredded his knee...but that was a young Kareem getting his feet wet. By the end of his rookie season, he was carpet-bombing everyone. And it carried into the '71 season.

Oh, and when Chamberlain left the floor in the last minute of the clinching loss in the '71 WCF's, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in Milwaukee!

BTW, you can divide the Wilt-Kareem H2H's into six sections. Their one game in the 69-70 season; the '70-71 regular season H2H's; the 70-71 WCF's; the '71-72 regular season; the '71-72 WCF's; and then their six H2H's in the 72-73 regular season.

The only "section" in which Abdul-Jabbar clearly outplayed Wilt, was in their '71-72 regular season H2H's. KAJ averaged 40 ppg on a .500 FG% against Wilt in their five H2H's. Interesting to note, though, that the Lakers went 4-1 in those five games, and in fact, in Kareem's two highest scoring games against Wilt, the Lakers won decisively.

In the five other "sections"...here were KAJ's FG%'s

'70: ... .429
'71 regular season... .438
'71 WCF's... .481
'72 WCF's... .457 (and only .414 in the last four games.)
'73 regular season... .450.

In any case, it is truly too bad that we never witnessed a peak Wilt playing against a peak Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks for sharing - that was a great read! I have to find Rosen's book on the Lakers.

Oh, and one more time...while we may disagree in some of our discussions, I always respect your opinions and observations. You always back up your opinions with facts and research.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

CavsFTW23 has a video that I would claim, mirrors the KAJ-Wilt H2H's, very well. Again, it's almost "Rocky-like."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

[Mr Feeny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357931

BOTH are better than Wilt. Both are top 2 players.
Wilt on the otherhand is an 18 ppg finals scorer. He has only a third of the titles that each of Jordan and Kareem won. :applause:

[Mr Feeny]

Rosen's book was a very good read. And he was right about the fact that after that Laker season, (really after Wilt retired the very next year)...that the NBA as a whole declined. Those games between KAJ and Wilt were all televised live, which was very unusual for that period. But, by the late 70's, games were either tape-delayed, or not even televised. I remember avoiding the late news, so that I could stay after 11:30 pm and watch the tape-delayed games between the Lakers and Sonics in the '80 post-season.

One thing about Rosen, though, is that he was not a fan of Wilt. And it begins early on his book, in which he completely blew the game seven recap of the '69 Finals...all in an attempt to disparage Chamberlain.

BUT, even he reluctantly came to the conclusion that it was WILT that carried that great Laker team that year.

BTW, I watched every game between Kareem and Wilt (as well as the Finals) that year, and I rank that Chamberlain season, and post-season, near the top of his career. Obviously he was a 35 year old, 300 lber, playing on a surgically repaired knee, and nowhere near the player he was in his prime. Yet, he chopped down a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and I noted earlier, basically ended what many had predicted would be a dynasty to rival the Celtic's of the 60's.

You could also make a case for his '71 season...which was, by far, the worst of his career. The injury and subsequent surgery from the year before took it's toll in the '71 season. Wilt's numbers were still exceptional, but way below what his norm had been.

BUT, he faced a peak Kareem five times in the regular season, and another five times in the WCF's, and statistically matched him. In fact, those the recaps from the '71 WCF's give Wilt about a 3-1-1 edge in the five games. However, Chamberlain was missing both West and Baylor in that series, and his Lakers were badly over-matched. Still, he had battled a Kareem that had just overwhelmed the league to a draw. Furthermore, it was really the first time in KAJ's entire basketball career that he was being outplayed. True, Thurmond outplayed him early in their career H2H's, and even Chamberlain pounded him in their one H2H before Chamberlain shredded his knee...but that was a young Kareem getting his feet wet. By the end of his rookie season, he was carpet-bombing everyone. And it carried into the '71 season.

Oh, and when Chamberlain left the floor in the last minute of the clinching loss in the '71 WCF's, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in Milwaukee!

BTW, you can divide the Wilt-Kareem H2H's into six sections. Their one game in the 69-70 season; the '70-71 regular season H2H's; the 70-71 WCF's; the '71-72 regular season; the '71-72 WCF's; and then their six H2H's in the 72-73 regular season.

The only "section" in which Abdul-Jabbar clearly outplayed Wilt, was in their '71-72 regular season H2H's. KAJ averaged 40 ppg on a .500 FG% against Wilt in their five H2H's. Interesting to note, though, that the Lakers went 4-1 in those five games, and in fact, in Kareem's two highest scoring games against Wilt, the Lakers won decisively.

In the five other "sections"...here were KAJ's FG%'s

'70: ... .429
'71 regular season... .438
'71 WCF's... .481
'72 WCF's... .457 (and only .414 in the last four games.)
'73 regular season... .450.

In any case, it is truly too bad that we never witnessed a peak Wilt playing against a peak Kareem.

Kareem r@ped him. We all saw it. It's too bad he owned your idol that badly:lol

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem r@ped him. We all saw it. It's too bad he owned your idol that badly:lol

Obviously you were not one of those that actually watched ANY footage between the two.

Nor this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


In the post-season, the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls,[92] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[92] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played all 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[93] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[93] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior

Get back to your rooting for 3" LeChoke.

How about your idol...getting his ass kicked by this guy...

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

We've been over this many times. My views differ with Laz on a few points but I won't rehash it again except to say that Kareem has a definite case for GOAT.


I will just say about the 1978 and 1979 Lakers, they had a lot of offensive talent with Nixon at PG and Dantley and Wilkes at SF and PF but that team had major weaknesses. They were near the bottom of the league in rebounding and had little defense on the perimeter. Nixon and Dantley didn't play a lick of defense. Young Dantley was widely known as a chemistry killer and getting rid of him helped the Lakers A LOT. Of course getting Magic didn't hurt and also Chones/Haywood who would help with rebounding and play some defense and allowing Wilkes to switch over to SF which was his most natural position.

I do agree with this.

[AirFederer]

Kazam is the goat movie

[Pointguard]

We've been over this many times. My views differ with Laz on a few points but I won't rehash it again except to say that Kareem has a definite case for GOAT.

I too think this is true.

[3ball]

.
DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:



Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none

Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c



Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .
.

[3ball]

.
Players who were scoring champs AND 1st team all-defense:


Michael Jordan:. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Kobe Bryant:..... 2006, 2007
Kareem Jabbar:. 1971




Players who were scoring champs AND won championship:


Michael Jordan:... 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Shaquille O'Neal:. 2000
Kareem Jabbar:... 1971




Players who led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career:


Michael Jordan*


* led team in scoring by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. :eek: .

[AirBonner]

.
Players who were scoring champs AND 1st team all-defense:


Michael Jordan:. 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Kobe Bryant:..... 2006, 2007
Kareem Jabbar:. 1971




Players who were scoring champs AND won championship:


Michael Jordan:... 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
Shaquille O'Neal:. 2000
Kareem Jabbar:... 1971




Players who led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career:


Michael Jordan*


* led team in scoring by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. :eek:
Less mvp seasons tho. As well as couldn't carry the LOAD as a rookie like GOAT Kareem

[3ball]

Less mvp seasons tho. As well as couldn't carry the LOAD as a rookie like GOAT Kareem



................................. All-Star Teammates



All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals

[dankok8]

^ Misleading stats.

Let's look at the All-Star teammates during the players' extended primes.

All-star appearances while playing with prime 1970-1981 Kareem:

Magic 2
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 1
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1

5 players = 8 appearances

All-star appearances while playing with prime 1985-1998 MJ:

Pippen 6

1 player = 6 appearances


Of course other than 1971 Oscar and 1980 Magic, none of those other players that made all-star games with Kareem were anywhere near as good as Pippen.

Mind you the league in the 70's and early 80's typically had contenders with 3-4 all-stars each so you needed a lot more talent to win.

[3ball]

Let's look at the All-Star teammates during the players' extended primes.

All-star appearances while playing with prime 1970-1981 Kareem:
8

All-star appearances while playing with prime 1985-1998 MJ:
6


Kareem has 33% more all-stars for the period you specified, and you included 1 less year for him (conveniently, the year before he would get a few more all-stars)





Of course other than 1971 Oscar and 1980 Magic, none of those other players that made all-star games with Kareem were anywhere near as good as Pippen.


:kobe:

So other than TWO PLAYERS, the remaining of Kareem's bevy of 6 all-stars weren't as good as Jordan's lone all-star - what a joke

Btw, Worthy was better for certain teams (teams that needed a #1 option capable of 25+ ppg)





Mind you the league in the 70's and early 80's typically had contenders with 3-4 all-stars each so you needed a lot more talent to win.


Kareem missed the playoffs 2 years in a row in his prime..

Otoh, Jordan never missed the playoffs and had the GOAT impact on a lottery team - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning a 6-peat dynasty.. That's the GOAT impact on lottery team..

Jordan carried that 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
.

[3ball]

Less mvp seasons tho. As well as couldn't carry the LOAD as a rookie like GOAT Kareem


Kareem missed the playoffs 2 years in a row in his prime..

Otoh, Jordan never missed the playoffs and had the GOAT impact on a lottery team - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning a 6-peat dynasty.. That's the GOAT impact on lottery team..

Jordan carried that 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals.


Also, Jordan faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming in 1989 Playoffs, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules" in ECF.. Here's an example from Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88).

In comparison to Jordan being double-teamed 10+ times per QUARTER, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times in the ENTIRE 2015 Finals:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team

[LAZERUSS]

There are FIVE legitimate GOAT candidates...

Wilt, MJ, Magic, KAJ, and Russell.

Each has their own case.

[3ball]

There are four legitimate GOAT candidates...

Wilt, MJ, KAJ, and Russell.

Each has their own case.


Magic doesn't belong, which means there's only 1 perimeter player in that group - no surprise that it's someone who combined the athleticism of a Lebron or Westbrook, but WITH good shooting, like a better jumpshot inside 20 feet (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) than Steph Curry.

Of course, Jordan tops the all the bigs, particularly Kareem - just look at all the stats at the top of this page - Jordan had superior offensive and defensive impact.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic doesn't belong, which means there's only 1 perimeter player in that group - no surprise that it's someone who combined the athleticism of a Lebron or Westbrook, but WITH good shooting, like a better jumpshot inside 20 feet (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) than Steph Curry.

Of course, Jordan tops the all the bigs, particularly Kareem - just look at all the stats at the top of this page - Jordan had superior offensive and defensive impact.
.

Magic is THE GOAT WINNER in NBA history. PERIOD.

Never came close to a losing season, went to nine finals in the most competitive era in NBA history, and dragged two broken down rosters to records of 62-17 and 57-22 in his last two years, and took one of those to the Finals in his last season.

GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[dankok8]

Kareem has 33% more all-stars for the period you specified, and you included 1 less year for him (conveniently, the year before he would get a few more all-stars)



:kobe:

So other than TWO PLAYERS, the remaining of Kareem's bevy of 6 all-stars weren't as good as Jordan's lone all-star - what a joke

Btw, Worthy was better for certain teams (teams that needed a #1 option capable of 25+ ppg)



Kareem missed the playoffs 2 years in a row in his prime..

Otoh, Jordan never missed the playoffs and had the GOAT impact on a lottery team - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54%.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning a 6-peat dynasty.. That's the GOAT impact on lottery team..

Jordan carried that 1989 lottery roster to 6 games with the world champions, just like Lebron did in 2015 - except Jordan led that lottery roster all season, while Lebron only led a lottery roster beginning in the Finals.



I included twelve years for both of them. First twelve seasons for both men not counting 1995 for Jordan.

Pippen was better than anyone apart from 1971 Oscar and 1980 Magic. In 1981, Magic missed most of the year to a knee injury.

Kareem's teams missed the playoffs twice... True. In 1975 his team was 35-30 with him and 3-14 without him so with him on the floor they were easily on pace to make it. In 1976 which is Kareem's only losing season, they won just 40 games and missed the playoffs. Meanwhile Jordan made the playoffs winning 40 games in 1987, 38 games in 1985, and get this 30 games in 1986. That is called CONTEXT.

Kareem led the 1974 Bucks who had no all-stars other than him to the Game 7 of the Finals averaging 32/16/5 on 56% shooting. There is plenty of stats to cherry-pick.

[3ball]

and Magic took one of those to the Finals in his last season (30 years old).


The 1991 matchup pitted the regular season MVP winner (MJ) vs. the runner-up (Magic), and both guys were top 5 all-time players - this has never happened before.. But MJ dominated the goat matchup - here are their overall stats for the series:


JORDAN 1991 FINALS:. 33/7/11 on 56%
MAGIC.. 1991 FINALS:. 19/7/13 on 43%


Jordan's GOAT two-way performance included being the primary defender on Magic - MJ guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters, which included holding Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO in critical Game 3 OT, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s).. (btw, Pippen missed that OT by fouling out - classic Pippen - MIA in the critical moments of the series).

[LAZERUSS]

The 1991 matchup pitted the regular season MVP winner (MJ) vs. the runner-up (Magic), and both guys were top 5 all-time players - this has never happened before.. But MJ dominated the goat matchup - here are their overall stats for the series:


JORDAN 1991 FINALS:. 33/7/11 on 56%
MAGIC.. 1991 FINALS:. 19/7/13 on 43%


Jordan's GOAT two-way performance included being the primary defender on Magic - MJ guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters, which included holding Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO in critical Game 3 OT, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s).. (btw, Pippen missed that OT by fouling out - classic Pippen - MIA in the critical moments of the series).

PEAK Magic DESTROYED both MJ and Bird in his '87 H2H's (MJ's highest scoring season.) Wiped the floor with both. Not only that, but Bird blew MJ's doors off in both the regular season and playoff H2H's that same season.

DESTROYED.

A PEAK Magic > A PEAK MJ

[3ball]

Kareem led the 1974 Bucks who had no all-stars other than him to the Game 7 of the Finals averaging 32/16/5 on 56% shooting.

There is plenty of stats to cherry-pick.


Who cares about losing Game 7 - Jordan WON a Finals without an all star.. The 1991 Finals pitted the regular season MVP winner (MJ) vs. the runner-up (Magic), and both guys were top 5 all-time players - this has never happened before.

Jordan thoroughly dominated and his GOAT two-way performance included being the primary defender on Magic - MJ guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45), which included holding Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO in critical Game 3 OT, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s).. (btw, Pippen missed that OT by fouling out - classic Pippen - MIA in the critical moments of the series).

[LAZERUSS]

Who cares about losing Game 7 - Jordan WON a Finals without an all star.. The 1991 Finals pitted the regular season MVP winner (MJ) vs. the runner-up (Magic), and both guys were top 5 all-time players - this has never happened before.

Jordan thoroughly dominated and his GOAT two-way performance included being the primary defender on Magic - MJ guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45), which included holding Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO in critical Game 3 OT, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s).. (btw, Pippen missed that OT by fouling out - classic Pippen - MIA in the critical moments of the series).


A Magic in his LAST season, and nowhere near his peak, and actually defended by Pippen because MJ couldn't do anything to stop him.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html


In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.



Of course, a PEAK Magic just slaughtered both MJ and Bird in their '87 H2H's, and not only that, but Bird annihilated MJ that year in both their regular season and playoff H2H's. An MJ in his highest scoring season.

Of course, MJ without Pippen was a loser.

[3ball]

A Magic in his last season, and actually defended by Pippen because MJ couldn't do anything to stop him.


Pippen was fouled out for the entire critical Game 3 OT - but Jordan held Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s)..

Also, Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of the 20 quarters in the 1991 Finals overall, to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters:



DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:



Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none


Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c




Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .





Bird annihilated MJ that year in both their regular season and playoff H2H's.


Bird didn't do shit - Jordan averaged 44 ppg on 51% and set the playoff record against Bird.

As for Pippen - Jordan carried that guy - the stats prove it pretty clearly:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920

[LAZERUSS]

Pippen was fouled out for the entire critical Game 3 OT - but Jordan held Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 TO, shown here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtj8ovhp48&t=6m04s)..

Also, Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of the 20 quarters in the 1991 Finals overall, to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters:



DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENTS BY QUARTER, 1991 FINALS:



Pippen guarded Magic for:

GAME 1: none
GAME 2: 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters
GAME 3: 2nd and 3rd quarters
GAME 4: the last 4 minutes of 4th quarter
GAME 5: none


Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c




Overall, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), compared to only 6 of 20 for Pippen (30%) .



Bird didn't do shit - Jordan averaged 44 ppg on 51% and set the playoff record against Bird.

As for Pippen - Jordan carried that guy - the stats prove it pretty clearly:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920

Not in '87 my friend. MJ's PEAK season.

Bird outscored him in their regular season H2H's, and then watched MJ puke all over the floor in the first round of the playoffs, with a horrific .417 FG% including a 9-30 clinching game debacle (which almost matched his career worst playoff game of 9-35.)

Bird > MJ

[Hey Yo]

There are FIVE legitimate GOAT candidates...

Wilt, MJ, Magic, KAJ, and Russell.

Each has their own case.
:roll:


stopping to catch my breath.



:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

:roll:


stopping to catch my breath.



:roll:

Magic = GOAT

:bowdown:

[3ball]

Magic = GOAT

:bowdown:


Magic was tough for any defense to handle - if you didn't have a guard in your backcourt that could legitimately match up with him like Jordan, than you were FU.CKED.

That's why those ridiculous hypotheticals that say "what if we replaced Jordan with Curry" don't work.. Curry would guard Byron Scott, but that would leave Paxson to guard Magic - so Pippen would guard Magic, but then who guards Worthy?

Without Jordan's ability to match up with Magic and hold Magic to 43% shooting, the Bulls were screwed - any team playing Magic's team MUST have a guard capable of matching up with him, or his size screws up all the matchups.

[Hey Yo]

Magic is THE GOAT WINNER in NBA history. PERIOD.

Never came close to a losing season, went to nine finals in the most competitive era in NBA history, and dragged two broken down rosters to records of 62-17 and 57-22 in his last two years, and took one of those to the Finals in his last season.

GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Using weak division foes as punching bags like LAC and GSW for 10yrs isn't that impressive. Only a few other teams worth mentioning for half of those 10 years. The conference in a whole was pretty week the whole time.

Plus LAL getting a first round bye 3 of Magic's first 4 seasons. Only having to play 2 rounds before getting to the Finals. Would've been 4 straight byes if Magic didn't choke in the first round (as the favorite) against Houston in 81'

[LAZERUSS]

Using weak division foes as punching bags like LAC and GSW for 10yrs isn't that impressive. Only a few other teams worth mentioning for half of those 10 years. The conference in a whole was pretty week the whole time.

Plus LAL getting a first round bye 3 of Magic's first 4 seasons. Only having to play 2 rounds before getting to the Finals. Would've been 4 straight byes if Magic didn't choke in the first round (as the favorite) against Houston in 81'

Beat the stacked Sixers twice, the Bad Boys once, and the Bird-led Celtics twice in the decade.

Also blew out the 56-26 defending champion Sonics, and shocked the 63-19 Blazers in Magic's tenure.

Of course, when you add it all up...Magic's Lakers beat more 50+ and 60+ win teams than Bird's Celtics.

[LAZERUSS]

Look 3ball,

I get it...you are a Jordanite. Great. And the majority of basketball fans would claim MJ as the GOAT.

However, there are those that don't share that same opinion. I certainly don't. And there is nothing you can show me that will change my mind. I watched all the GOATs, and I have read virtually every major article or statistical fact that there is on the subject of "GOATs."

I also know that Wilt and Kareem immediately made last-place rosters into title contenders, while Jordan did little to his. And I know that when KAJ and Chamberlain were given quality rosters, just like Jordan's stacked rosters that could win 55+ games and were legitimate title contenders without him...that they too won titles.

In fact, can you imagine a prime Kareem replacing Jordan on the Bulls in the watered down 90's? Hell, a near 40 year old KAJ was carpet-bombing Hakeem and Ewing. A prime Kareem...likely 40+ a night against them. Some nights of 60.

Put the 80's versions of Bird's Celtics, or Magic's Lakers, or Moses's Sixers, or the Bad Boys into the 90's, and Jordan would have been fortunate to have won 1-2 rings. Put MJ in the 60's and having to face Russell's Celtics, and same thing.

Again...if you want to continue these daily topics about Jordan being the GOAT, go right ahead. It won't change my mind.

[davidkimchi]

top 3 all time for sure

[1987_Lakers]

Lazerus = coastalmaker?

[Yeezy]

Lazerus = coastalmaker?

1987_Lakers = Steve, Simon, Wheels, 5'8ball, alternativeacc, thecorporation, Lebron23, and1allday, scuzzy, gushemmingway, lambruh, draynklay, docs orders, dubeta and a million others?


rhetorical

[Hey Yo]

Bird didn't do shit - Jordan averaged 44 ppg on 51% and set the playoff record against Bird.

See Manny..... another example from 7yrs ago of MJ getting praised for losing with empty stats.

[Soundwave]

Look 3ball,

I get it...you are a Jordanite. Great. And the majority of basketball fans would claim MJ as the GOAT.

However, there are those that don't share that same opinion. I certainly don't. And there is nothing you can show me that will change my mind. I watched all the GOATs, and I have read virtually every major article or statistical fact that there is on the subject of "GOATs."

I also know that Wilt and Kareem immediately made last-place rosters into title contenders, while Jordan did little to his. And I know that when KAJ and Chamberlain were given quality rosters, just like Jordan's stacked rosters that could win 55+ games and were legitimate title contenders without him...that they too won titles.

In fact, can you imagine a prime Kareem replacing Jordan on the Bulls in the watered down 90's? Hell, a near 40 year old KAJ was carpet-bombing Hakeem and Ewing. A prime Kareem...likely 40+ a night against them. Some nights of 60.

Put the 80's versions of Bird's Celtics, or Magic's Lakers, or Moses's Sixers, or the Bad Boys into the 90's, and Jordan would have been fortunate to have won 1-2 rings. Put MJ in the 60's and having to face Russell's Celtics, and same thing.

Again...if you want to continue these daily topics about Jordan being the GOAT, go right ahead. It won't change my mind.

If Portland had drafted Jordan, he would've had help and a deeper squad right from day 1. Bird or Magic being gifted better teams to start with doesn't make them greater IMO, that's just pure luck of the draw, MJ had the hardest road.

I mean you give Jordan a team with Kareem and Worthy and they probably win every year in the 1980s.

[Full Court]

Not a bad OP, but personally I have KAJ #4.

[kawhileonard2]

Can't have a guy who had more finals mvp than you. Also played with a guy with 3 finals mvp's, 3 mvp's.