MJ is the only all-time great that led team in scoring for every series of career

[3ball]

.
..............And Jordan did it by an average of 15.4 PPG



..................PPG for #1 scorer... PPG for #2 scorer... Difference


1985 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html):...... Jordan 29.3............... Woolrige 20.5.................. 8.8

1986 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html):...... Jordan 43.7............... Woolrige 21.0................ 22.7

1987 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html):...... Jordan 35.7............... C Oakley 20.0................ 15.7

1988 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 45.2............... C Oakley 10.8................ 34.4
1988 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 27.4............... C Oakley 12.8................ 14.6

1989 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-cavaliers.html):...... Jordan 39.8............... S Pippen 15.0................ 25.0
1989 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-knicks.html):...... Jordan 35.7............... S Pippen 14.8................ 20.9
1989 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 29.7............... C Hodges 12.0............... 17.7

1990 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bucks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.8............... S Pippen 22.5................ 14.3
1990 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 43.0............... S Pippen 20.8................ 22.2
1990 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 32.1............... S Pippen 16.6................ 15.5

1991 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.0............... S Pippen 19.7................ 9.3
1991 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 33.4............... S Pippen 23.4................ 10.0
1991 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pistons-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.8............... S Pippen 22.0................ 7.8
1991 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.2............... S Pippen 20.8................ 10.4
.

[3ball]

1992 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 45.0............... S Pippen 24.0.............. 21.0
1992 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.3............... S Pippen 16.0.............. 15.3
1992 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-finals-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 19.8.............. 11.9
1992 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 35.8............... S Pippen 20.8.............. 15.0

1993 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-hawks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 34.3............... S Pippen 15.3.............. 19.0
1993 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 18.3.............. 12.7
1993 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html):...... Jordan 32.2............... S Pippen 22.5.............. 9.8
1993 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 21.2.............. 19.8

1995 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-hornets.html):...... Jordan 32.3............... T Kukocs 17.3.............. 15.0
1995 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-magic.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 19.0.............. 12.0

1996 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 30.0............... S Pippen 19.7.............. 10.3
1996 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.0............... S Pippen 15.6.............. 20.4
1996 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.5............... S Pippen 18.5.............. 11.0
1996 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 27.3............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 11.6

1997 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bullets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 37.3............... S Pippen 16.7.............. 20.6
1997 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hawks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 26.6............... S Pippen 22.2.............. 4.4
1997 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 30.2............... S Pippen 16.8.............. 17.4
1997 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 32.3............... S Pippen 20.0.............. 12.3
.

[3ball]

1998 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.3............... S Pippen 18.0.............. 18.3
1998 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hornets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.6............... S Pippen 17.8.............. 11.8
1998 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.1
1998 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):...... Jordan 33.5............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 17.8
.................................................. ............................................______
.................................................. ........................15.4 average difference

[Smoke117]

Curry > MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry > Jordan

[3ball]

MichaeL Jordan, ladies and gentlemen



Jordan was involved in MORE possessions for his team (usage), while producing more per-possession (ORtg) - he simply DID MORE:



1991 vs. 2016:



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 32.9% Usage.. 125 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 32.6% Usage.. 125 ORtg



Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 33.3% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 REG SEASON:4 26.9% Usage.. 117 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 35.6% Usage.. 118 ORtg
CURRY4 PLAYOFFS:4 28.2% Usage.. 115 ORtg


Jordan gave his team MORE (possessions) of a GOOD THING (per possession efficiency)... :confusedshrug:
.

[Sarcastic]

Can't believe Hodges outscored Pippen in 89. :facepalm

[3ball]

MJ is good, but he sure as hell ain't no Steph Curry.



Jordan's 1991 was on another level:



Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991 RS: 42.7 pts.. 8.1 reb..4 7.5 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 3.7 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 60.4 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 WS/48
CURRY 4 2016 RS: 42.5 pts.. 7.7 reb..4 9.4 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 3.0 stl.. 0.3 blk.. 66.9 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.5 PER.. 0.318 WS/48
JORDAN 1991 PO: 41.8 pts.. 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.8 blk.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 WS/48


Jordan had higher points-per-possessions (ORtg) and Player Efficiency Rating, even though Curry's efficiency was boosted by carrying a smaller load: Jordan produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with less turnovers, while also carrying a larger load on defense.

Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (winning championship and FMVP), while carrying a bigger load on both ends and having higher efficiency per possession - that covers all the bases.
.

[oarabbus]

MJ is good, but he sure as hell ain't no Steph Curry.

I'd draft MJ 3rd after Curry and Shaq, I'll give him that much.

[AirBonner]

Kareem>MJ

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif


Curry spaces the floor


Jordan's spaces the floor more - when a dangerous rim attacker is on the floor, ALL defenders must cheat off their man (see Isiah Thomas above), which leaves 3-point shooters and other teammates more open than otherwise.. This is basketball 101.

Otoh, 3-point shooters only cause a single defender to hug them on the perimeter, which doesn't do shit BY ITSELF - it takes the entire Warrior team shooting 3-pointers TOGETHER to provide floor-spacing.

Essentially, 3-point shooters need teammates to help them space the floor, whereas a single rim attacker frees up teammates for open shots all by themselves, by forcing the entire defense to cheat off their man.
.

[oarabbus]

Jordan had higher points-per-possessions (ORtg) and Player Efficiency Rating, even though Curry's efficiency was boosted by carrying a smaller load: Jordan produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with less turnovers in 1991, 1996 and for his career overall, while also carrying a larger load on defense.

Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (winning championship and FMVP), while carrying a bigger load on both ends and having higher efficiency per possession - that covers all the bases.


Fails the eye test vs. Curry
Fails the eye test vs. Shaq

MichaeL Jordan, ladies and gentlemen

[AirBonner]

Fails the eye test vs. Curry
Fails the eye test vs. Shaq

MichaeL Jordan, ladies and gentlemen
L standing for load right? Michael LOAD Jordan.

[3ball]

Curry > MJ


This is Curry's first season as the NBA's best offensive player.. He has 10 more (in a row) to match Jordan.

Remember - Jordan led the Bulls in passing too - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).

Accordingly, Jordan's goat scoring load (as shown in the OP), team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and overall burden - Curry's performance is a joke by comparison.. :confusedshrug:
.

[3ball]

Fails the eye test vs. Curry



Here's some jumpshots that Curry can't make:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/BPuQS38pmBicU/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/xYooZyhilqRvG/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/t5qbCYwmWVWRG/giphy.gif


Ultimately, 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - this is why Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry in 2016 - can you say "watered down"??

[3ball]

Curry > Jordan


Unlike players in today's 3-point-happy league, Jordan didn't have teammates spreading the floor for him - teams only attempted 5 threes per game when Jordan won his first ring in 1991, compared to 25 attempts per game for today's teams.. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with Curry's goat shooting ability.. :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[KobesFinger]

Those are bad shots anyway. Sure he makes them but you don't want players deliberately shooting over people, its bad basketball.

[AirBonner]

According to Madonna Pippen's LOAD was greater than Jordan's. What are your thoughts on that 3ball?

[oarabbus]

Here's some jumpshots that Curry can't make:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/BPuQS38pmBicU/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/xYooZyhilqRvG/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/t5qbCYwmWVWRG/giphy.gif


Ultimately, 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - this is why Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry in 2016 - can you say "watered down"??

Awful shots. Jordan would get benched after getting knocked to the floor and the ball sent into the stands taking those garbage shots against today's vastly improved defenses.

Plus, Jordan can't make any jumpshots Curry can make - he's a poor imitation of Curry at best.

[3ball]

against today's vastly improved defenses


The paint would be wide open in today's game because the 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter.

So Jordan wouldn't NEED to take those shots in today's game, which is why today's game and players are shit.

For example - Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry today - that's super-watered down.. The real reason it's so watered down is because 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players.





Plus, Jordan can't make any jumpshots Curry can make


Curry makes mostly open shots - this is a FACT:

The NBA tracks all player movement and their data shows that 70% of Curry's 3-pointers are "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender), or "very open" (6+ feet).

Scroll down to the 5th data set titled "closest defender" to see the data yourself:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season





Jordan is a poor imitation of Curry at best.


Don't be surprised that most of Curry's 3-pointers are wide open - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. Curry's 3-pointers are actually less open than the rest of the league - over 80% (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12316018#post12316018) of the league's 3-pointers are "open" or "very open", compared to Curry's aforementioned 70%.

Ultimately, today's teams use offensive schemes that maximize 3-point looks, so players shoot 3-pointers easier than ever before - specifically, driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for more of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to stand there and wait for kickouts as often as today's player.
.

[oarabbus]

Ultimately, today's teams use offensive schemes that maximize 3-point looks, so players shoot 3-pointers easier than ever before - specifically, driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for more of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to stand there and wait for kickouts as often as today's player.
.


We already know that the game has advanced and the 90s were a bit backwards when it came to offensive (and defensive) schemes, 3ball. At least we can say that Jordan, even if the overall inferior player, was a better 2-legged dunker than Steph.

[Ben Simmons]

Curry > Jordan

[3ball]

the 90s were a bit backwards when it came to schemes, 3ball.


Now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.





At least we can say that Jordan was a better 2-legged dunker than Steph.



Jordan also shot FAR better than Curry inside 20 feet, on 6 times the volume:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga



Interestingly, good shooting isn't needed to be a top scorer in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, yet they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had the goat midrange efficiency shown above, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over the aforementioned non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.
.

[oarabbus]

Now that teams have sufficient 3-point shooting personnel to drive-and-kick for 3-pointers (as opposed to 2-pointers), the drive-and-kick format has become more efficient than the post-up format.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick..

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick worthwhile, we can say with certainty that many of today's elite players would be lesser players back then - their 3-and-D skill sets exclude elite ability in any of the aforementioned areas.




Jordan also shot FAR better than Curry inside 20 feet, on 6 times the volume:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga



Interestingly, good shooting isn't needed to be a top scorer in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, yet they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had the goat midrange efficiency shown above, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gave him a similarly massive advantage over the aforementioned non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.

3ball dropping truth about why the 90s were an inferior era on the offensive end :applause:

Good post. The level of shooting and spacing in the 90s was atrocious.

[AirBonner]

3ball dropping truth about why the 90s were an inferior era on the offensive end :applause:

Good post. The level of shooting and spacing in the 90s was atrocious.
This. The schemes and plays back then are typical of modern day playground basketball.

[3ball]

3ball dropping truth about why the 90s were an inferior era on the offensive end :applause:


Offense is easier WITH spacing - therefore, players that excel WITHOUT spacing (previous eras) were better players.





Jordan would get benched after taking those tough shots against today's vastly improved defenses.


Those Jordan gifs showed overcrowded paints - but in today's game, the paint would be wide open because the 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter.

The wide open paint means Jordan wouldn't NEED to take those shots in today's game, which is why today's game and players are shit - the spacing makes offense too easy for players - Jordan wouldn't need to resort to hangtime, dipsy-doo shots anymore.

It's just watered down now - for example, Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry today.. The real reason it's so watered down is because 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players.





The level of shooting and spacing in the 90s was atrocious.



Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint is too crowded and penetration is physically impossible - Jordan is forced to pull-up from midrange:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


You pretty much never see paints like this in today's game, where the player has NO CHOICE put to pull-up from midrange... Instead, 3-point shooters clear the lane of defenders, so players have easy access to the lane... Guys like Grant Hill, Penny and Jordan would see their stats EXPLODE in today's spacing.



And Grant Hill's sub-par shooting would fit in PERFECTLY in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler have poor 3-point and midrange efficiency ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, but they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim than ever before.. The spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Hill and Jordan athleticism the same way - except Jordan had GOAT midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12367120&postcount=12), which puts him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gives him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrook, Hill and company.
.

[KobesFinger]

Wait, how can today's defences be out on the perimeter guarding the 3 point shot but 70% of shots are open? Something doesn't add up

[3ball]

Wait, how can today's defences be out on the perimeter guarding the 3 point shot but 70% of shots are open? Something doesn't add up


It's the NBA's own data.. But don't be surprised that most of Curry's 3-pointers are wide open - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. Curry's 3-pointers are actually less open than the rest of the league - over 80% (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12316018#post12316018) of the league's 3-pointers are "open" or "very open", compared to Curry's aforementioned 70%.

Ultimately, today's teams use offensive schemes that maximize 3-point looks, so players shoot 3-pointers easier than ever before - specifically, driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for more of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to stand there and wait for kickouts as often as today's player.

But the MAIN takeaway from this data is that 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - this is why Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry in 2016 - can you say "watered down"??

[Smoke117]

Can't you see that nobody is even humoring your post anymore? This gimmick is played out...get a new one.

[oarabbus]

It's the NBA's own data.. But don't be surprised that most of Curry's 3-pointers are wide open - today's drive-and-kick offenses require 3-4 players standing behind the line on every play (spacing), so the defense is stretched out and can't make timely rotations most of the time.. Curry's 3-pointers are actually less open than the rest of the league - over 80% (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12316018#post12316018) of the league's 3-pointers are "open" or "very open", compared to Curry's aforementioned 70%.

Ultimately, today's teams use offensive schemes that maximize 3-point looks, so players shoot 3-pointers easier than ever before - specifically, driving and kicking for 3-pointers wasn't common or the staple of ANY team's offense until about 10 years ago.. Guys like Reggie Miller and Larry Bird had to run off screens for more of their 3-point looks - they didn't get to stand there and wait for kickouts as often as today's player.

But the MAIN takeaway from this data is that 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - this is why Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry in 2016 - can you say "watered down"??

Yes, we can certainly say "watered down". The 90s was incredibly watered down. We live in a new era with advanced offensive and defensive schemes, and a much, much larger global talent pool. 3ball with more gems, couldn't have explained it better myself how the 90s were a weaker, inferior era :applause:

[CuterThanRubio]

Here's some jumpshots that Curry can't make:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/BPuQS38pmBicU/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/xYooZyhilqRvG/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/t5qbCYwmWVWRG/giphy.gif


Ultimately, 2-pointers are more CONTESTED, so eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - this is why Shaq was 10th in MVP voting in 1996, compared to Kyle Lowry in 2016 - can you say "watered down"??

Here are 402 jumpshots that Jordan can't make

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvN-EYgYSZI

Ultimately, 3-pointers are more EFFICIENT, so eras that shot more 2-pointers would stand no chance against teams today, because they would be outgunned with no response other than contested 2s, good luck with that!

[livingby3's]

3ball do u get taxed when insidehoops pay u?

[ninephive]

Makes Terry Cummings outscoring him in the playoffs even more impressive, IMO.

[raprap]

Curry >

[plowking]

Yeah we know. Even when he was shooting in the high 30% range, he was intent to take the most shots on the team.

[3ball]

eras that shot more 2-pointers would be outgunned by today's 3-pointers with no response other than contested 2s, good luck with that!


So today's game needs an extra point on their shots to be competitive with previous eras..

Like I said - today's era is a joke






Ultimately, 3-pointers are more EFFICIENT


Curry's 3-point efficiency is offset by lower midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) efficiency and far higher turnovers, which cause his efficiency per possession to be lower than Jordan's.

Jordan's superior efficiency is remarkable considering he carried a bigger load: Jordan produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with less turnovers, while also carrying a larger load on defense.

Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (winning championship and FMVP), while carrying a bigger load on both ends and having higher efficiency per possession - that covers ALL the bases.

[3ball]

Yeah we know. Even when he was shooting in the high 30% range, he was intent to take the most shots on the team.



Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG


Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:...... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:.... 1975
George Gervin:. 1982
Kobe Bryant:.... 2006
Elgin Baylor:.... 1963
Tiny Archibald:. 1973
Dominique:...... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:..... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:.......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:.......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:....... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:............ 1966
Rick Barry:............ 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:.. 1995
Kobe Bryant:.......... 2007
Dominique:............ 1988
Allen Iverson:......... 2005
Kareem Jabbar:...... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


Notice that Lebron isn't on the list because his efficiency is poor at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact.. In the 2015 Finals, Lebron's high volume could only control pace, while his poor efficiency prevented him from being devastating.. Otoh, teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too.

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below).

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.3 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.4 dreb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.4 pts.. 1.9 oreb.. 5.6 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.9 fga.. 47.7 fg.. 55.2 ts.. 108 ORtg


Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply did more (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yep

RULE ENFORCED SPACING

Illegal Defense

[3ball]

RULE ENFORCED SPACING

Illegal Defense


The strictest rule-enforced spacing EVER occurs in today's paint - defenders must remain within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) to remain in the paint - that's the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. What a joke... :oldlol: ... that's why today's paint is wide open on every play - defenders aren't allowed to wait in there like previous eras.. Take this L

Also, Curry has teammates spacing the floor for him while Jordan didn't - teams only attempted 5 threes per game when Jordan won his first ring in 1991, compared to 25 attempts for today's teams.. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with Curry's goat shooting ability.. :confusedshrug:

[LilEddyCurry]

Curry > Jordan

[3ball]

Curry > Jordan


Jordan's 1991 was on another level:



Per 100 Possessions

JORDAN 1991 RS: 42.7 pts.. 8.1 reb..4 7.5 ast.. 3.3 tov.. 3.7 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 60.4 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.6 PER.. 0.321 WS/48
CURRY 4 2016 RS: 42.5 pts.. 7.7 reb..4 9.4 ast.. 4.7 tov.. 3.0 stl.. 0.3 blk.. 66.9 ts.. 125 ORtg.. 31.5 PER.. 0.318 WS/48
JORDAN 1991 PO: 41.8 pts.. 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.4 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.8 blk.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 WS/48


Jordan had higher points-per-possessions (ORtg) and Player Efficiency Rating, even though Curry's efficiency was boosted by carrying a smaller load: Jordan produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with less turnovers, while also carrying a larger load on defense.

Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (winning championship and FMVP), while carrying a bigger load on both ends with higher efficiency per possession - that covers all the bases.





Curry > Jordan


Curry has teammates spreading the floor for him and Jordan didn't - teams only attempted 5 threes per game when Jordan won his first ring in 1991, compared to 25 attempts per game for today's teams.. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with Curry's goat shooting ability.. :confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah we know. Even when he was shooting in the high 30% range, he was intent to take the most shots on the team.

There is only ONE playoff series in Jordan's career where he shot below 40% FG and his second option (Pippen) and his team excluding himself were more efficient than he was. One series (1993 vs. NY). Every other series where MJ shot poorly, he was still equally or more efficient than Pippen and the rest of the Bulls minus Jordan, despite seeing way more defensive attention than them.

One series. Try again.

[G0ATbe]

Weak ass era. Prime Kobe would be doing the same things Jordan did back then, with a far less stacked team.

[Dr Hawk]

3ball :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[diamenz]

you're right 3ball, curry can't make those kind of shots. but jordan couldn't shoot like curry beyond and well beyond the arc.

'..but but but if jordan would have focused on 3 point shooting'!

but he didn't, 3ball.

[3ball]

but if jordan would have focused on 3 point shooting'!


His offense was superior to Curry's without it - Jordan had higher efficiency per-possession than Curry (ortg), which is more important than Curry's per-shot efficiency.

Jordan's superior efficiency is remarkable considering he carried a bigger load - he produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with FAR less turnovers, while also carrying a bigger load on defense.

Ultimately, Jordan achieved the highest honor (championship and FMVP) while carrying a bigger load on both sides of the ball, all with greater efficiency - that covers all the bases.





Curry's shoots 3-pointers, so he doesn't need 2-pointers


Exactly - today's players need an extra point on their shots to compete with prior eras.

2-pointers are more contested, so the eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players.. For example, Kyle Lowry was 10th in MVP voting this season, compared to Shaq in 1996 - that's super-watered down.





Curry's offensive stats are on prime Jordan's level


For 1 season - this is Curry's first season as the NBA's best offensive player - he needs 9 more (in a row) before catching Jordan.

Also, Curry has teammates spreading the floor for him and Jordan didn't - teams only attempted 5 threes per game when Jordan won his first ring in 1991, compared to 25 attempts per game for today's teams.. Basketball is harder without spacing, so we know Jordan's stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with Curry's goat shooting ability.. :confusedshrug:

[Springsteen]

Jordan also leads all players in being the most statistically responsible for getting his father mudered.

[plowking]

There is only ONE playoff series in Jordan's career where he shot below 40% FG and his second option (Pippen) and his team excluding himself were more efficient than he was. One series (1993 vs. NY). Every other series where MJ shot poorly, he was still equally or more efficient than Pippen and the rest of the Bulls minus Jordan, despite seeing way more defensive attention than them.

One series. Try again.

He shot under 40% against Miami too and kept jacking up shots enough to be able to put up like 32ppg for the series or something ridiculous. May have been more. :oldlol:

[AirBonner]

Jordan also leads all players in being the most statistically responsible for getting his father mudered.
:eek: :eek: :eek:

[3ball]

He shot under 40% against Miami too and kept jacking up shots enough to be able to put up like 32ppg for the series or something ridiculous. May have been more. :oldlol:


In the series you referenced (1997 ECF vs. Miami), Jordan averaged 32/8/3 on 38.7%, and he also averaged 27/5/4 on 42% in 1996 Finals.. That's excellent compared to Lebron's 22/7/6 on 35% in 2007 Finals, or 17 ppg in 2011 Finals.

Jordan's worst playoff series were far better than Lebron's worst, which shouldn't be surprising, since Jordan's overall averages showed a 5.5 ppg scoring edge in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg).. This is far more valuable than Lebron's 2.5 def rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

Remember that Jordan led his team in passing - he Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) - so Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS:



Jordan's goat scoring load as shown in the OP, team-leading passing (he led Bulls in assist % for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats), and best-ever defense at his position represent the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

[dankok8]

And yet...

Russell is the greatest winner ever.

Wilt is the most statistically dominant player ever.

Kareem is the most accomplished player ever.

Oscar is the greatest all-around player ever.

Magic is the greatest team facilitator ever.



Jordan will never be the unanimous GOAT. He's the most popular choice although as more time passes since his retirement fans will vouch for newer legends at his expense.

[LAZERUSS]

And yet...

Russell is the greatest winner ever.

Wilt is the most statistically dominant player ever.

Kareem is the most accomplished player ever.

Oscar is the greatest all-around player ever.

Magic is the greatest team facilitator ever.



Jordan will never be the unanimous GOAT. He's the most popular choice although as more time passes since his retirement fans will vouch for newer legends at his expense.


And Bird went 6-0 against him.

BTW, a peak Bird has a case for GOAT as well.

[jlip]

And yet...

Russell is the greatest winner ever.

Wilt is the most statistically dominant player ever.

Kareem is the most accomplished player ever.

Oscar is the greatest all-around player ever.

Magic is the greatest team facilitator ever.



Jordan will never be the unanimous GOAT. He's the most popular choice although as more time passes since his retirement fans will vouch for newer legends at his expense.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[3ball]

Russell is the greatest winner ever.. Not in the modern era - Jordan's 6/15 championship frequency is the modern standard

Wilt is the most statistically dominant player ever.. Not even close - he averaged 22 ppg in the playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.

Kareem is the most accomplished player ever.. MJ is far more accomplished: 6/6 with 6 Finals MVP's and goat two-way play, including 10 scoring titles and 9 1st-team all-defense

Oscar is the greatest all-around player ever.. He barely won

Magic is the greatest team facilitator ever.. Needed the most stacked team ever, and Jordan destroyed him for the championship in 1991, when Magic was runner-up for MVP


https://media.giphy.com/media/Mp4hQy51LjY6A/giphy.gif

[r0drig0lac]

GOAT gonna GOAT

[Smoke117]

And Bird went 6-0 against him.

BTW, a peak Bird has a case for GOAT as well.

Definitely.

[3ball]

Definitely.


Why only a "peak" Bird, or a "peak" Lebron, or "peak" this guy, or "peak" that guy.

Another poster said it perfectly earlier - Jordan's CAREER was his peak - 1985-1998

For example, in his first playoff series as a rookie, he faced Sidney Moncrief, who was the reigning, 2-time DPOY and the greatest perimeter defender ever at that time.. Rookie Jordan still averaged 29/6/9 on 57% TS in his very first series..

As you can see, there's no need to give Jordan any slack by specifying his "peak" or a certain time period like other players.. that's how you know he's the GOAT.

[Hey Yo]

3ball boosting MJ's stats again


In the series you referenced (1997 ECF vs. Miami), Jordan averaged 32/8/3 on 38.7%, and he also averaged 27/5/4 on 42% in 1996 Finals.. That's excellent compared to Lebron's 22/7/6 on 35% in 2007 Finals, or 17 ppg in 2011 Finals.

Against Miami - 30.2/8/2.6

MJ shot 41.5% against Seattle, not 42%

22/7/7. James avg. 7 assists, not 6.

He has no problem rounding up MJ's 41.5% to 42 yet LeBron's 6.8ast in 2007 becomes 6.0. Plus he always refers to LeBron shooting 39.8% in last seasons Finals but not 40% like he would for if it were MJ.

Proof of having to fudge LeBron's #'s for the worse and MJ's for the better shows you're def. getting more and more concerned, chico.

[3ball]

3ball boosting MJ's stats again

Against Miami - 30.2/8/2.6

MJ shot 41.5% against Seattle, not 42%

22/7/7. James avg. 7 assists, not 6.

He has no problem rounding up MJ's 41.5% to 42 yet LeBron's 6.8ast in 2007 becomes 6.0. Plus he always refers to LeBron shooting 39.8% in last seasons Finals but not 40% like he would for if it were MJ.


So you're complaining that I rounded up Jordan's 41.7% to 42, and made a small memory error about Lebron assist average (6 vs. 7).. :rolleyes:

The point remains - Jordan averaged 32/8/3 on 38.7%, and he also averaged 27/5/4 on 42% in 1996 Finals.. That's excellent compared to Lebron's 22/6/7 on 36% in 2007 Finals, or 18 ppg in 2011 Finals.. So Jordan's worst playoff series were far better than Lebron's worst.

This shouldn't be surprising, since Jordan's overall averages showed a 5.5 ppg scoring edge in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg), including superior clutch.. This is far more valuable than Lebron's 2.5 def rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

Remember that Jordan led his team in passing - he Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) - so Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.
.

[Hey Yo]

So you're complaining that I rounded up Jordan's 41.7% to 42, and made a small memory error about Lebron assist average (6 vs. 7).. :rolleyes:
41.5%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html


The point remains - Jordan averaged 32/8/3 on 38.7%, and he also averaged 27/5/4 on 42% in 1996 Finals
30.2 / 2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html

You have no problem rounding up MJ's 41.5% to 42 yet LeBron's 6.8ast in 2007 becomes 6.0. Plus you always refer to LeBron shooting 39.8% in last seasons Finals but not 40% like he would for if it were MJ.

Busted AGAIN, Chico.

[raprap]

41.5%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html


30.2 / 2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html

You have no problem rounding up MJ's 41.5% to 42 yet LeBron's 6.8ast in 2007 becomes 6.0. Plus you always refer to LeBron shooting 39.8% in last seasons Finals but not 40% like he would for if it were MJ.

Busted AGAIN, Chico.
3ball :facepalm


Shame.

[3ball]

41.5%


I rounded up to 42%.. completely standard.. :coleman:





You have no problem rounding up MJ's 41.5% to 42 yet LeBron's 6.8ast in 2007 becomes 6.0. Plus you always refer to LeBron shooting 39.8% in last seasons Finals but not 40% like he would for if it were MJ.


These shenanigans are why I usually post links from each stat to the source, like the thread posted below, which shows how Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1


Not surprisingly, his teammates' predictable play-finishing roles don't succeed against the best teams, resulting in team underperformance and losing as the favorite (2009, 2010, 2011 playoffs), and when it was 50/50 (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html) (2014).. Otoh, Jordan elevated teammates, so his teams played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite or when it was 50/50 - MJ only lost when he was a huge underdog - those are the facts.
.

[ImKobe]

MJ's worst series was averaging 27 ppg on 41.5% shooting in a Finals series that he won the FMVP.

Some kid the other day said MJ was garbage in a series he averaged 32/6/7, where he had a 54 pt game followed by a triple double.

Shows how clueless kids are.

[3ball]

.
Who assisted on highest proportion of Bulls FG's in playoffs during 6-peat?


Jordan did, as the stats show here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. This shouldn't be a surprise, since he led the Bulls in APG for most playoff runs.

The remarkable thing is that he led the Bulls in passing while carrying the biggest scoring load ever, BY FAR - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, EXCEPT Jordan, who did so by an average margin of 15.4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) ppg.

This is why it's funny when a new fan says that Jordan's teams were IDEALLY built around him - obviously, it isn't IDEAL for anyone to carry such a goat scoring load, while also leading the team in passing, while also being the best defender ever at their position.. Obviously, that isn't IDEAL.. :rolleyes: