Charles Barkley: NBA is watered down, worst I

[jstern]

[QUOTE]Well, the NBA is watered down. The NBA is the worst I

[3ball]

.
Tracey McGrady said the same thing - he's super-credible, because he played in BOTH eras - he said prior eras were much harder.

Kobe, who ALSO played in both eras, said today's defense was "weak" and "soft" compared to prior eras:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kobe%20says%20today%27s%20defense%20is%20weak% 20and%20soft


Ron Artest, Matt Barnes and many more have echoed this sentiment - it shouldn't be a surprise, because the NBA stated that their objective with the new rules changes was to increase penetration and freedom of movement, while reducing physicality and defensive resistance:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

[tpols]

he's right in the sense that upsets are least likely than ever .. and if you're out east, it's even sadder.

there's no more real stars .. a few great teams, and then nothing.


I remember when eastern conference, when it was considered at its lowest, used to be led by jason kidd and ben wallace, hell, even vince carter.. now aside from one super team theyre led by kyle lowry and demar derozan, and jeff teague and paul millsap ... sad sh!t.

[K Xerxes]

It's only in text form do I realise just how much Barkley repeats himself. My god. :lol:

[TiagoSimoes]

.
Tracey McGrady said the same thing - he's super-credible, because he played in BOTH eras - he said prior eras were much harder.

Kobe, who ALSO played in both eras, said today's defense was "weak" and "soft" compared to prior eras:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kobe%20says%20today%27s%20defense%20is%20weak% 20and%20soft


Ron Artest, Matt Barnes and many more have echoed this sentiment - it shouldn't be a surprise, because the NBA stated that their objective with the new rules changes was to increase penetration and freedom of movement, while reducing physicality and defensive resistance:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

The word Jordan wasnt present in a 3ball post :biggums:

[NBAGOAT]

someone posted this on a similar reddit thread.

2015: http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/charles-barkley-the-nba-sucks-because-agents-and-players-families-are-greedy-pigs/

2014: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-charles-barkley-nba-worst-ncaa-tournament-tbs-east-conference-76ers/1fc5tnxrq37ai1abio33ke72lr

2013: http://www.danpatrick.com/2013/12/09/charles-barkley-on-auburn-kobes-return-and-how-bad-nba-is-right-now/

2012: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/charles-barkley-i-cannot-believe-how-bad-the-nba-is/1#.VzOQipMrKRs

2011: http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/charles-barkley-nba-sucks/

this is something he says every year.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The problem is out East.

That entire conference is a shit show, and one guy stacked the deck just so he could ensure his finals appearances. :oldlol:

Silver needs to totally do-away w/ conferences and make the postseason your basic top 16. With charter jets and better traveling options, I don't see why it would be an issue at this point.

[warriorfan]

Charles says that cause he is a fat bitch that never won a chip

so he tries to front and say his time was all hard and shit but really he just ate tons of donuts and chicken wings and was lazy as fucc and a career loser

Charles barkley stays bitter as hell about not winning rings and is wrong about everything he holds the L

[CuterThanRubio]

He's just salty because his 93 Suns team shot a lot of threes and lost against the Bulls, so he is convinced that "jump shooting" teams can't win.

[DoctorP]

someone posted this on a similar reddit thread.

2015: http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/charles-barkley-the-nba-sucks-because-agents-and-players-families-are-greedy-pigs/

2014: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-charles-barkley-nba-worst-ncaa-tournament-tbs-east-conference-76ers/1fc5tnxrq37ai1abio33ke72lr

2013: http://www.danpatrick.com/2013/12/09/charles-barkley-on-auburn-kobes-return-and-how-bad-nba-is-right-now/

2012: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/charles-barkley-i-cannot-believe-how-bad-the-nba-is/1#.VzOQipMrKRs

2011: http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/charles-barkley-nba-sucks/

this is something he says every year.

apparently, Barkley is a demagogue.

[FreezingTsmoove]

We are in a weak era right now but there are a ton of superstar talented players coming in the league this draft and the next

[Hey Yo]

The problem is out East.

That entire conference is a shit show, and one guy stacked the deck just so he could ensure his finals appearances. :oldlol:

Silver needs to totally do-away w/ conferences and make the postseason your basic top 16. With charter jets and better traveling options, I don't see why it would be an issue at this point.
If it was just the top 16, the East would have 11 of the 16 spots. Possibly 12 pending on how the tiebreaker would be decided between (5)Portland and (8)Detroit.

[Da_Realist]

someone posted this on a similar reddit thread.

2015: http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/charles-barkley-the-nba-sucks-because-agents-and-players-families-are-greedy-pigs/

2014: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-charles-barkley-nba-worst-ncaa-tournament-tbs-east-conference-76ers/1fc5tnxrq37ai1abio33ke72lr

2013: http://www.danpatrick.com/2013/12/09/charles-barkley-on-auburn-kobes-return-and-how-bad-nba-is-right-now/

2012: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/charles-barkley-i-cannot-believe-how-bad-the-nba-is/1#.VzOQipMrKRs

2011: http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/charles-barkley-nba-sucks/

this is something he says every year.

Getting worse

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If it was just the top 16, the East would have 11 of the 16 spots. Possibly 12 pending on how the tiebreaker would be decided between (5)Portland and (8)Detroit.

I'd assume things would be different w/ the circumstances above.

The heavy-hitters, and absolute BEST teams for the majority, would still be ones coming out "West".

[NBAGOAT]

Getting worse

that's the only way it logically makes sense but seriously doubt it. Anyway someone who hates this year will say watered down, someone who likes it will just say top heavy.

[jstern]

someone posted this on a similar reddit thread.

2015: http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/charles-barkley-the-nba-sucks-because-agents-and-players-families-are-greedy-pigs/

2014: http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-commissioner-adam-silver-charles-barkley-nba-worst-ncaa-tournament-tbs-east-conference-76ers/1fc5tnxrq37ai1abio33ke72lr

2013: http://www.danpatrick.com/2013/12/09/charles-barkley-on-auburn-kobes-return-and-how-bad-nba-is-right-now/

2012: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/02/charles-barkley-i-cannot-believe-how-bad-the-nba-is/1#.VzOQipMrKRs

2011: http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/charles-barkley-nba-sucks/

this is something he says every year.

In the link Barkley says that he's been saying it for two and three years.

[Hey Yo]

I'd assume things would be different w/ the circumstances above.

The heavy-hitters, and absolute BEST teams for the majority, would still be ones coming out "West".
Still gotta play the games, chico.

Besides, using the top 16 is too risky cause there's great potential of TV ratings going down in different markets due to many possible scenario's.




Quit crying biotch and continue to WITNESS!!

[90sgoat]

[QUOTE=jstern]Well, the NBA is watered down. The NBA is the worst I

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Still gotta play the games, chico.

Besides, using the top 16 is too risky cause there's great potential of TV ratings going down in different markets due to many possible scenario's.




Quit crying biotch and continue to WITNESS!!

No there's not - but I'll be sure to watch 2/7, little guy.

Be careful what you wish for :cheers:

[stalkerforlife]

That's what happens when you collude and put all the best players on one team and ruin an entire conference.

Zero competitive drive.

[90sgoat]

Listen to what the man says for once:facepalm

You have guys coming into to the league who were not even that good college players and they're going 1-5.

You have kids who struggle in the college setting and now you give them free reign?

Mudiay shooting in the low 30s, Wiggins who wasn't even the best player on his team.

It's no coincidence that the best TEAMS are going euro, with the euro players you get NBA ready players, you get fundamentals, you get players who have been playing among MEN from they are 14-15 years old, practicing every day sets and scrimmages against and with seasoned pros.

On the other hand, American players now run in those travel team leagues where no one plays defense, no one runs sets, everyone jacks up shots. Those guys would be literally nothing if travelling and carry was called like it was in the 80s.

I had a post some time ago showing how FMVP are predominantly players with 3+ years of college.

Even looking at a player like Lebron, my god how good could he have been with 3-4 years of college, having learned a proper jumper, a proper post game, a proper team setting.

Silver will ignore it all though, because as you can tell from the reactions, most fans just don't care.

[moongaze]

The league is so watered down yet the 2014 USA team was one of the best all time? It was watered down in the early to mid 2000s but I think it's at a high point right now.

[90sgoat]

The league is so watered down yet the 2014 USA team was one of the best all time? It was watered down in the early to mid 2000s but I think it's at a high point right now.

You do realize the sheer size of the US talent pool is like the entirity of Europe combined right?

Basketball is probably the 4th or 5th most popular sport in Spain for example after soccer, handball, cycling, tennis.

Being able to beat small European countries is not really a great feat.

The Balkan countries who contribute tonnes of NBA players are smaller than the biggest cities in the US in total and they too favor soccer above all.

[coin24]

If it was just the top 16, the East would have 11 of the 16 spots. Possibly 12 pending on how the tiebreaker would be decided between (5)Portland and (8)Detroit.


No because they wouldn't play east teams 3 times and same conference 4 times etc..
that shit needs to change

[Draz]

Give it a fcking break. We need some diversity in the playoffs. No one wants to see the Craptors in the ECF anyways, but if they won fair and square, put hard work and effort in, why the fck not. We need some underdog stories, sick and tired of the same dam teams over and over.

[Bankaii]

No because they wouldn't play east teams 3 times and same conference 4 times etc..
that shit needs to change
The majority of the East PO teams had a better/equal record vs the East compared to the West.

[fourkicks44]

Pretty ironic that Tmac came to the L straight out of high school.

I tend to agree with Chuck, but the NCAA needs to come to the party. Kids ain't going to stay in school if the don't have to. Especially going from no income to an NBA salary. Concessions have to be made and rules changed.

Maybe even changing the draft rules so players can be drafted buf continue to play in college before coming to the NBA.

[CuterThanRubio]

Listen to what the man says for once:facepalm

You have guys coming into to the league who were not even that good college players and they're going 1-5.

You have kids who struggle in the college setting and now you give them free reign?

Mudiay shooting in the low 30s, Wiggins who wasn't even the best player on his team.

It's no coincidence that the best TEAMS are going euro, with the euro players you get NBA ready players, you get fundamentals, you get players who have been playing among MEN from they are 14-15 years old, practicing every day sets and scrimmages against and with seasoned pros.

On the other hand, American players now run in those travel team leagues where no one plays defense, no one runs sets, everyone jacks up shots. Those guys would be literally nothing if travelling and carry was called like it was in the 80s.

I had a post some time ago showing how FMVP are predominantly players with 3+ years of college.

Even looking at a player like Lebron, my god how good could he have been with 3-4 years of college, having learned a proper jumper, a proper post game, a proper team setting.

Silver will ignore it all though, because as you can tell from the reactions, most fans just don't care.

LeBron was better than the majority of the league from day 1, no college necessary!

It's called learning on the job, college can't completely prepare you for the NBA no matter how long you stay there, you gotta make the jump to the big leagues to get true experience.

The best teams are not going Euro!

The four teams remaining in the playoffs are lead by American superstars: KD, Russell, LBJ, Curry, Klay, Dray, Lowry, DeRozan, Kyrie, Love, etc.

Fundamentals can always be developed over time but athleticism has an expiration date, Wiggins would be a top 5 player in the 80s and 90s.

[bdonovan]

This always gets said by veterans of the next era. People said that when Bird and Magic retired. They'll never be players like that; that hustle and grit like Bird, or that passing precision and court vision of Magic. They said it when Jordan retired. It's a very very common sentiment of ex-players perhaps unwittingly self-aggrandizing - subtly showing they compare favorably to today's players.

He might have a point about people leaving college early. It's hard to say. Kobe became one of the best players in the game in his 3rd year; a year he would otherwise be a junior in college. Even people like Steven Adams on OKC make a solid impact despite their age.

But I think the point about college players leaving early doesn't justify the overall point that the NBA is the worst we've seen.... - you can't be an objective observer and make that point. I've watched the game for 20 years since I was in high school and the game has evolved in many ways above and beyond where it was back then -- not everything has, but plenty. Barkley may be motivated by ego and seeking attention. If so, it wouldn't be the first time.

[moongaze]

You do realize the sheer size of the US talent pool is like the entirity of Europe combined right?

Basketball is probably the 4th or 5th most popular sport in Spain for example after soccer, handball, cycling, tennis.

Being able to beat small European countries is not really a great feat.

The Balkan countries who contribute tonnes of NBA players are smaller than the biggest cities in the US in total and they too favor soccer above all.

Where did I say it was a great feat? They played the entire world not just small European countries and did a lot better than early to mid 2000s team USA ls which lost several games in embarrassing fashion. The shooting with guys like curry, Thompson, Kyrie and others is as good as it's ever been. On top of that NBA records have been broken a plenty recently. We've had more different champions in the past decade than we've ever had. This shows parity. Unlike the predictable 90s where it was mj, sprinkled in with the rockets and a shortened year.

[plowking]

Staying in college doesn't do jack.

Kawhi staying in college didn't serve any other purpose than to get his stock up. He became a good free throw shooter in the league. He became a good jump shooter in the league. He became a good 3 point shooter in the league. His handles improved in the league.

College is just a platform or medium, where players can transition from that high school age, to actually become grown men, and fill out into their bodies so they can compete with grown men on a professional stage.

Someone mentioned guys who don't dominate in college going 1-5? Yes, absolutely. Those teams are built on even more rigid and strict planning than NBA teams. Look at what KAT was limited to on his college team. Then he comes in and averages 18/11 in the pros. It sure as hell wasn't college that taught him that shit, since he wasn't doing it there. Same with DeMarcus Cousins. Hardly used correctly in college, and now a complete beast in the pros.

Barkley usually makes good points, but it is apparent they are lost in the 100 bad ones he has in between.

[kamil]

Kobe, who ALSO played in both eras, said today's defense was "weak" and "soft" compared to prior eras:

37 year old cripple dropping 60 points in his final game.... yeah, that HAS to tell you it's shit defence.

[3ball]

.
The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.


There it is in black and white (and red).. :confusedshrug:
.

[sd3035]

If it was just the top 16, the East would have 11 of the 16 spots. Possibly 12 pending on how the tiebreaker would be decided between (5)Portland and (8)Detroit.

I see math isn't your forte :lol

[Bawkish]

Staying in college doesn't do jack.

Kawhi staying in college didn't serve any other purpose than to get his stock up. He became a good free throw shooter in the league. He became a good jump shooter in the league. He became a good 3 point shooter in the league. His handles improved in the league.

College is just a platform or medium, where players can transition from that high school age, to actually become grown men, and fill out into their bodies so they can compete with grown men on a professional stage.

Someone mentioned guys who don't dominate in college going 1-5? Yes, absolutely. Those teams are built on even more rigid and strict planning than NBA teams. Look at what KAT was limited to on his college team. Then he comes in and averages 18/11 in the pros. It sure as hell wasn't college that taught him that shit, since he wasn't doing it there. Same with DeMarcus Cousins. Hardly used correctly in college, and now a complete beast in the pros.

Barkley usually makes good points, but it is apparent they are lost in the 100 bad ones he has in between.

hell yeah, let's disband NCAA college basketball

these playas were just wasting time with all those basketball programs cause apparently, you just have to learn on the job

what a time!

[G-train]

Look at what KAT was limited to on his college team. Then he comes in and averages 18/11 in the pros. It sure as hell wasn't college that taught him that shit, since he wasn't doing it there.

lol

did he learn it all in 3 months prior to the season?

[Funktion]

Chuck just a bipolar troll.

[JtotheIzzo]

http://www.danpatrick.com/2016/05/11/charles-barkley-nba-is-watered-down/

yawn, love Chuck but this is more age suppressing youth BS. The league is in transition, the Bran era is getting old and the Davis/Wiggins/Towns era is not quite ready.

Durant, Curry, James are all-timers in any era, and Westbrook is close, with Harden, Leonard, George et. not far behind.

Teams are a bit more stacked now so it looks worse than it is.

[ralph_i_el]

Lol back in Charles' day teams could make the finals with a star that didn't do cardio with his team, and instead ate pancakes while yelling at his teammates.

Before that was the era where players smoked cigs at halftime, and nobody could shoot 3's or play D.

[AirFederer]

Oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg

[theaussieguy]

its a far more skilled and fluent league, hes just bitter because he is seeing a skillset that he knows deep down he could possibly never emulate in his prime. He knows he is just a ringless, poverty bron at this point.

BITTER.

[Jon_Koncak]

he is right.There are a ton of shit teams.How can NBA be at its best when Eastern playoffs have turned into a mere formality?3 straight sweeps for Cavs in eastern play offs,a huge possibility a 4th one is coming.When was a conference so weak in the history of NBA?Propably NEVER.It's a joke.

[keep-itreal]

He wouldn't be saying this if it was Clippers VS Warriors in the 2nd round

[DCL]

would curry be at this level if he only played one year of college ball? probably not.

[IGOTGAME]

As far as top tier talent it's pretty watered down as opposed to some of the years Barkley played

[tpols]

he is right.There are a ton of shit teams.How can NBA be at its best when Eastern playoffs have turned into a mere formality?3 straight sweeps for Cavs in eastern play offs,a huge possibility a 4th one is coming.When was a conference so weak in the history of NBA?Propably NEVER.It's a joke.

probably only 87 Lakers was on par ?

I checked out some of the duos from their competition for reference.


'87 Supersonics
Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers, Xavier McDaniels
all 20+ ppg scorers on ~47 FG

'87 Warriors
Sleepy Floyd 20/10, 50 FG
6 players scoring in double figures


'16 Hawks
leading scorer 16 ppg, 43 FG Millsap
backcourt shooting < 40% from field

'16 Raptors
Two leading scorers averaging 20 ppg, 36 FG
Starting double double Center out


this is probably the worst conference of all time.

[3ball]

It's easy to determine that today's game is watered down, since Kyle Lowry was 10th in MVP voting, which is a big drop-off from Shaq being 10th in 1996.

Today's watered down players and league shouldn't be a surprise: scorers are ranked as "good" because they can make contested shots, not open shots.. And 2-pointers are simply FAR more contested, so the eras that took more two's produced better players.

Ultimately, the tighter contest on 2-pointers requires refined touch from midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12367120&postcount=12), and the lack of spacing created by 2-point shooting required thread-needle (https://media.giphy.com/media/14dxFSxmv135bG/giphy.gif) passing, quicker instincts (https://media.giphy.com/media/WaFRus5AZcR8c/giphy.gif) and decision-making (https://media.giphy.com/media/xVCegX3kISST6/giphy.gif), and also more sophisticated (https://media.giphy.com/media/xT4uQoN51xmHONisr6/giphy.gif) moves besides ball-domination (such as post (https://media.giphy.com/media/sMEYKXY5vSezK/giphy.gif), triple-threat (https://media.giphy.com/media/xT4uQwXCdJnRJ1PGrS/giphy.gif)).

Otoh, today's players master a much narrower skillset that requires less sophistication - specifically, they master the skills needed to execute screen-roll/drive-and-kick, since that's the preferred method of generating mass volume of 3-point shooting.
.

[Dro]

its a far more skilled and fluent league, hes just bitter because he is seeing a skillset that he knows deep down he could possibly never emulate in his prime. He knows he is just a ringless, poverty bron at this point.

BITTER.
Please, Barkley was Draymond before Draymond was even thought of. With less defense of course. All these tweener, mobile pfs emulate chuck everyday.

[3ball]

.
In previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting was the biggest deterrent to penetration, not hand-checking.. Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown below:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6ozo2gsUnmBUtTd6/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif



So anytime you contemplate how one of today's players would do in a prior era, understand that he would be forced to pull-up from midrange much more often - he wouldn't have teammates spreading the floor and opening up the paint like today's game - basketball is harder WITHOUT spacing (previous eras), than WITH spacing (today's game).

[3ball]

.
Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint in previous eras was too crowded and penetration was often physically impossible - players like Jordan were forced to pull-up from midrange:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WM0txsXFKjLP2/giphy.gif


You pretty much never see paints like this in today's game, where the player has NO CHOICE put to pull-up from midrange... Instead, 3-point shooters clear the lane of defenders, so players have easy access to the lane... Guys like Grant Hill, Penny and Jordan would see their stats EXPLODE in today's spacing.



And Grant Hill's sub-par shooting would fit in PERFECTLY in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler have poor 3-point and midrange efficiency ([url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, but they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim than ever before..

The spacing and hands-off defense would benefit Hill and Jordan athleticism the same way, except Jordan's midrange efficiency was goat even better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12367120&postcount=12) - this puts him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gives him a similarly massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrook, Hill and company.

[Showtime80']

I love watching those 80's Jordan Highlights!!!

In almost EVERY PLAY you at least two perimeter defenders shifting over to the paint NOT GUARDING ANYBODY in anticipation of the Jordan penetration!

You can call it the Jordan Zone!!!

"Wiggins would be a top 5 player in the 80's and 90's" Now I know I've read all the stupid crap posted on this site!!! He's not even a top 10 SMALL FORWARD IN THE 1980'S!!!

Bird
Wilkins
King
CHambers
Aguirre
Dantley
English
Dr J
Cummings
Gervin
Wilkes

The shift of paradigm of "you can learn fundamentals in the NBA, so let's focus on athleticism instead" is the single BIGGEST REASON the NBA quality has gone down the CRAPPER!!! What used to be a cerebral, fundamentally sound and high IQ competition has turned into an athletic, raw, dumbed down 3 point jacking EXIBITION between a bunch of AAU buddies who at the end of the day would rather team up with each other than beat their main competition!

[90sgoat]

Where did I say it was a great feat? They played the entire world not just small European countries and did a lot better than early to mid 2000s team USA ls which lost several games in embarrassing fashion. The shooting with guys like curry, Thompson, Kyrie and others is as good as it's ever been. On top of that NBA records have been broken a plenty recently. We've had more different champions in the past decade than we've ever had. This shows parity. Unlike the predictable 90s where it was mj, sprinkled in with the rockets and a shortened year.

Klay Thompson and Steph both had 3 years of college, so I don't know how that disproves anything?

Klay might be the best shooting guard in the league right now.

If you only saw Klay out of high school would he rank that high? Goofy looking, not that great a handle.

Like Barkley says, college gives teams an opportunity to watch how players develop and lead their teams over time. Could anyone predict Steph Curry? Perhaps not, but Steph had a great college career, now he is doing exactly almost point for point, shot by shot, what he did in high school.

Sometimes those projections fail such as with Christian Laetner who many thought would be a boss, but for every Laetner there are 10 Kwame Browns.

Did you watch Frank Kaminsky win a game for Charlotte by himself this playoffs?

4 years of college.

It isn't even the best players who suffer, they will make it somehow, but the level below the best players who do not have the insane talent of a Durant or Lebron, they NEED that college tutoring, they need to learn how to maximize their talent within a team as role players. They don't learn that in high school or AAU where they are the sole ball dominant star.

[Optimus Prime]

Barkley, T-Mac and others are totally right. The NBA is a joke right now. Changing the rules to make the league soft as Charmin where every game is nothing but a 3-point contest is not fun. Having one conference being a trash tier JV league except one super stacked colluding team is not fun. Don't even get me started on all the Facebook-friending, passive-aggressive, whining, and flopping betas that pathetically pass as "stars" nowadays. :mad:

WCF will be one of the few watchable series in this year's playoffs, along with the Spurs/Thunder series which was a pretty major upset. The Least has been a dumpster fire and not worth watching whatsoever. The Finals will only be enjoyable to watch LeBeta get embarrassed yet again and go 2/7.

I barely watched any NBA games this year, and I probably won't bother next season unless some drastic events happen this off-season. :confusedshrug:

:kobe:

[RoseCity07]

I think the NBA has too many teams. Just removing two teams would mean the talent pool would be better. The NBA wants to expand though. It's about money. Not a quality product.

[miggyme1]

I think its called evolution.


I dont see the league being watered down. If you look at the nba in the 90s and today its still the same.

-only 4-5 teams have a legit shot to win it all every year
-league still being carried by 4-6 LEGIT superstars
-superstars still get the V.I.P treatment with calls and what not
- one conference's (mostly east) talent is sub par compared to the other

[Showtime80']

I'm sorry, the league in the 1980's was carried by 10 to 15 ALL TIME TOP 10 TO 20 TRANSCENDANT players!!! These are players that TRANSFORMED not only teams but CITIES!!! And had stellar careers for 10+ years!

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Olajuwon
Moses
Kareem
Dr J
Barkley
Wilkins
Drexler
Ewing
McHale
Isiah
Stockton
Malone

The present league can't compete with that and aside from a few pathetic years like 1984, 85 and 87, the Western Conference had very good contending teams like the Spurs, Sonics and Nuggets in the early 80's and the Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Blazers and Rockets in the mid to late 80's. Not to mentioned the Milwaukee Bucks, who were a perennial Eastern power in the 1980's was moved from the Western conference in 1981!

[Da_Realist]

The shift of paradigm of "you can learn fundamentals in the NBA, so let's focus on athleticism instead" is the single BIGGEST REASON the NBA quality has gone down the CRAPPER!!! What used to be a cerebral, fundamentally sound and high IQ competition has turned into an athletic, raw, dumbed down 3 point jacking EXIBITION between a bunch of AAU buddies who at the end of the day would rather team up with each other than beat their main competition!

:applause:

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan played with two expansion teams.

[jstern]

.
The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

NBA: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

NBA: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

NBA: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

NBA: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.


There it is in black and white (and red).. :confusedshrug:
.

It's there in black and white. Any reasonable person would not dismiss this when considering these kinds of topics.

[3ball]

Not exactly imo

[3ball]

It's there in black and white. Any reasonable person would not dismiss this when considering these kinds of topics.



Exactly - the NBA's statements say the rules were designed to increase penetration FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE of generating more 3-point looks via kickouts "back out to the perimeter":



"Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter."

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


Clearly, the nba WANTED more 3-point shots and the easier, spaced-out, drive-and-kickout format we see today.






Any reasonable person would not dismiss this when considering these kinds of topics.



The NBA also stated they wanted the spaced-out game to create "more time to shoot":



"As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them."

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


The NBA suceeded in their objective of generating more time to shoot - the NBA's data (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693) shows that over 80% of today's 3-pointers are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "very open" (6+ feet)... This figure is 70% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406865) for Curry.

So the open shots shouldn't be a surprise, considering the hand-check ban spearheaded today's spaced-out, drive-and-kick offenses that make it impossible for defenses to cover the extra ground or make timely rotations, just as the NBA intended.

[LebronsHairline]

This fat fool gets pedicures and kissed a donkey's azzzs once, no credibility what-so-ever

[jstern]

In general you have the best teams winning and all time level amount of games when the league, or conference is weak. It usually means there was a perfect storm, that allowed the best teams to do what they did. I would say the same for the 96 Bulls. Look at the Cavs this year versus the East. Undefeated in the playoffs. You had the Spurs could have won 70 games in a season where another team in the same conference won 73.

So as much hype as a team with the best record gets recognized for years to come, the reality could be that a 60 win team could be the greatest of all time, yet never ever get the credit because they played in a competitive league.

[Showtime80']

It's a lot simpler than that jstern, just look at the lineups! Compare this years Spurs to:

87' Lakers
86' Celtics
83' Sixers
82' Lakers
89' Pistons
91' Bulls

Are the Spurs even in the SAME REALM player for player when compared with ANY of those teams!?!

[Disaprine]

Beastern Conference doe

[jstern]

It's a lot simpler than that jstern, just look at the lineups! Compare this years Spurs to:

87' Lakers
86' Celtics
83' Sixers
82' Lakers
89' Pistons
91' Bulls

Are the Spurs even in the SAME REALM player for player when compared with ANY of those teams!?!

Yes, you're right.

[Dro]

.
In previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting was the biggest deterrent to penetration, not hand-checking.. Without 3-point shooting to draw defenders out of the paint, the paint was often too crowded for penetration to even be physically possible - overcrowded paints FORCED players to pull-up from midrange, shown below:


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6ozo2gsUnmBUtTd6/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif



So anytime you contemplate how one of today's players would do in a prior era, understand that he would be forced to pull-up from midrange much more often - he wouldn't have teammates spreading the floor and opening up the paint like today's game - basketball is harder WITHOUT spacing (previous eras), than WITH spacing (today's game).
I know people hate the gifs but damn if it aint the truth....There's like 3-4 guys in the paint, lol....Guys leave Anthony Roberson alone but they still guard him SOMEWHAT. Dudes totally ignore Jordan's teammates to try to stop him...Its crazy...

[knicksman]

Thats why stern was a failure. The guy is weak. Him acting tough is just a front. He lets players be above him. And now they became spoiled brats. He shouldve taken a hard stance on hard cap and this shit wouldnt happen

[Dro]

Klay Thompson and Steph both had 3 years of college, so I don't know how that disproves anything?

Klay might be the best shooting guard in the league right now.

If you only saw Klay out of high school would he rank that high? Goofy looking, not that great a handle.

Like Barkley says, college gives teams an opportunity to watch how players develop and lead their teams over time. Could anyone predict Steph Curry? Perhaps not, but Steph had a great college career, now he is doing exactly almost point for point, shot by shot, what he did in high school.

Sometimes those projections fail such as with Christian Laetner who many thought would be a boss, but for every Laetner there are 10 Kwame Browns.

Did you watch Frank Kaminsky win a game for Charlotte by himself this playoffs?

4 years of college.

It isn't even the best players who suffer, they will make it somehow, but the level below the best players who do not have the insane talent of a Durant or Lebron, they NEED that college tutoring, they need to learn how to maximize their talent within a team as role players. They don't learn that in high school or AAU where they are the sole ball dominant star.
This is a great post. :applause:

[Dro]

I think its called evolution.


I dont see the league being watered down. If you look at the nba in the 90s and today its still the same.

-only 4-5 teams have a legit shot to win it all every year
-league still being carried by 4-6 LEGIT superstars
-superstars still get the V.I.P treatment with calls and what not
- one conference's (mostly east) talent is sub par compared to the other
Wrong about the bolded, correct about the rest.

[Da_Realist]

The problem goes deeper than college. It's difficult for 2-3 years of college ball to correct 10 years of flawed AAU training. The basics of teamwork used to be taught at the junior high and high school levels. Those basics were perfected at the college level.

Now college is just as bad as AAU. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever go back. America loves the superstar and that won't change. It fits our character. We need someone to put a team on his back. We need a guy that will kick ass and ask questions later. We started out fighting for independence and that is still our greatest focus. We don't need anyone -- even our own teammates! MJ tapped into the American psyche. We want a conquerer, not a guy willing to share the spotlight. We value settling grudges, not teamwork. We love ALPHA-ness, not unity. This is not about MJ in particular, but the change in climate he ushered in.

The product has rotted from the inside out but we don't care as long as we can attach to a superstar and follow him wherever he goes. It's no longer about the team and it probably won't ever be that way again for the vast majority of NBA fans.

[Showtime80']

Wow hell of a post Realist!

I agree completely and this is something that A LOT of people fail to understand. Michael Jordan didn't go to UNC to learn basic fundamentals and basketball IQ from Dean Smith, he already had that, he went there to PERFECT AND MASTER all those qualities and how to incorporate them in a team concept in a way that could make him and those around him successful. Back then it wasn't about jumping early and getting PAID, NCAA was sort of finishing school and players went to the NBA when they knew they were ready.

That's ALL GONE NOW!!! Players, agents and families want to get paid as soon and as quickly as possible and they all know that the modern NBA rewards ATHLETIC RAW POTENTIAL more than ever before so the market is flooded and the quality of the game has suffered since the mid 90's because of it.

How do you get a 15 year old 6'8 kid who has half a million views on youtube doing cross overs and step back 3 pointers to get in the gym and work on his balance, outlet passing, jump hook, up and under, array of ball fakes, free throw shooting etc...

Guess what? YOU CAN'T!!! And thus you have the modern NBA