The Jordan Rules.

[ClipperRevival]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GYKrcM1k0U

Best video I've seen about this topic coming straight from the horses mouth (ex-players, coaches, commentators and writers).

[3ball]

.
Jordan was the most double-teamed perimeter player ever, BY FAR:


Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The Jordan Rules' 4th quarter policy was usually to double-team MJ every time he touched the ball.. Here's an example from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.



By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... So in comparison to MJ getting double-teamed 12 times in a single quarter, Lebron was doubled 3 times per game.


"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
.

[Uncle Drew]

.
Jordan was the most double-teamed perimeter player ever, BY FAR:


Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The Jordan Rules' 4th quarter policy was usually to double-team MJ every time he touched the ball.. Here's an example from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.



By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... So in comparison to MJ getting double-teamed 12 times in a single quarter, Lebron was doubled 3 times per game.


"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting[/COLOR] (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
6 minutes. :roll:

[ClipperRevival]

The youngsters need to appreciate what MJ had to overcome. :applause:

[andgar923]

The youngsters need to appreciate what MJ had to overcome. :applause:
Those clips only show a fraction of what happened. They don't show what they did to MJ before he touched the ball or while he played defense. Some still happens today but to a very very small degree and with actual consequences.

One of the least talked about physical play aspects is there was little to no punishment. So a defense could be more physical than today because they could get away with it, it wouldn't really hinder their aggression nor deter from their gameplan.

If a defense has a physical/aggressive mentality today it will last a few whistles into the first quarter. Two-three quick fouls will change their approach.

Imagine if you could be physical on Harden 80% of the game? His fta will drop, his energy will decline, his aggressiveness will decline, and his efficiency would drop.

People should focus on how much impact that will have throughout the league.

[bigkingsfan]

If he had Curry range, it wouldn't be an issue.

[Quickening]

Those clips only show a fraction of what happened. They don't show what they did to MJ before he touched the ball or while he played defense. Some still happens today but to a very very small degree and with actual consequences.

One of the least talked about physical play aspects is there was little to no punishment. So a defense could be more physical than today because they could get away with it, it wouldn't really hinder their aggression nor deter from their gameplan.

If a defense has a physical/aggressive mentality today it will last a few whistles into the first quarter. Two-three quick fouls will change their approach.

Imagine if you could be physical on Harden 80% of the game? His fta will drop, his energy will decline, his aggressiveness will decline, and his efficiency would drop.

People should focus on how much impact that will have throughout the league.

The PPG in the 80s and 90s must be far lower than todays game with such brutal defence, the type of defence that amateurs play.

[andgar923]

The PPG in the 80s and 90s must be far lower than todays game with such brutal defence, the type of defence that amateurs play.
Players played differently than today. There was also more specialized players ei, players that played a specific role and they knew and accepted that role. Team roles were defined and players mostly accepted them.

Also, if you look at the scoring leaders list most are post players. It
Wasn't until the late 90s when it started to become perimeter friendly, and the team structure is criticized to decline ( thanks to the NBA's search for the next MJ).

[ClipperRevival]

Those clips only show a fraction of what happened. They don't show what they did to MJ before he touched the ball or while he played defense. Some still happens today but to a very very small degree and with actual consequences.

One of the least talked about physical play aspects is there was little to no punishment. So a defense could be more physical than today because they could get away with it, it wouldn't really hinder their aggression nor deter from their gameplan.

If a defense has a physical/aggressive mentality today it will last a few whistles into the first quarter. Two-three quick fouls will change their approach.

Imagine if you could be physical on Harden 80% of the game? His fta will drop, his energy will decline, his aggressiveness will decline, and his efficiency would drop.

People should focus on how much impact that will have throughout the league.

I posted this video to show the youngsters how much MJ had to overcome to win titles. How much his opposition feared him that they specifically created a scheme to slow him down. That's respect.

On the flipside, LeBron saw single coverage for almost the entire 2015 finals. Can you imagine MJ being single covered? Dude would LITERALLY average 50 ppg. The guy averaged 41 ppg against constant doubles at the highest stage.

[FKAri]

I posted this video to show the youngsters how much MJ had to overcome to win titles. How much his opposition feared him that they specifically created a scheme to slow him down. That's respect.

On the flipside, LeBron saw single coverage for almost the entire 2015 finals. Can you imagine MJ being single covered? Dude would LITERALLY average 50 ppg. The guy averaged 41 ppg against constant doubles at the highest stage.
Lebron's an overrated halfcourt scorer. He's good but even in his peak he wasn't top 3 in the league. Jordan is arguably the GREATEST EVER halfcourt scorer. That's quite a gap.

[Dro]

Yet, people somehow think Curry would average 30ppg a game with the "Curry" rules....All of his shots would have to be 3 pointers because anytime he goes to the basket, he's gonna get killed...I'm not saying he can't handle it...I'm saying he would HAVE to handle it.

[sportjames23]

I posted this video to show the youngsters how much MJ had to overcome to win titles. How much his opposition feared him that they specifically created a scheme to slow him down. That's respect.

On the flipside, LeBron saw single coverage for almost the entire 2015 finals. Can you imagine MJ being single covered? Dude would LITERALLY average 50 ppg. The guy averaged 41 ppg against constant doubles at the highest stage.

This.

[soots]

it worked.

MJ never beat the Badboy Pistons during their peak.

Hence why i believe he can be surpassed by another player in the next 50 years. Heck MJ only won the ring in one situation. Kobe won it in 2 (Bynum/Pau and Shaq), Duncan won it in 4 different situations (TT, 2003 Solo, Big3 and Team).

MJ lost his hair and put on ridiculous amounts of muscle in the early 90s to become the GOAT (all signs of massive PED use). He needed this to survive the hand check era.

Hes still GOAT, but it isnt black and white imo.

[Bawkish]

it worked.

MJ never beat the Badboy Pistons during their peak.

Hence why i believe he can be surpassed by another player in the next 50 years. Heck MJ only won the ring in one situation. Kobe won it in 2 (Bynum/Pau and Shaq), Duncan won it in 4 different situations (TT, 2003 Solo, Big3 and Team).

MJ lost his hair and put on ridiculous amounts of muscle in the early 90s to become the GOAT (all signs of massive PED use). He needed this to survive the hand check era.

Hes still GOAT, but it isnt black and white imo.

did you forgot that he retired after the 1st 3-peat, played another sport then came back with a different style of offense on the road to 2nd 3-peat?

[soots]

did you forgot that he retired after the 1st 3-peat, played another sport then came back with a different style of offense on the road to 2nd 3-peat?

He was asked to take a break after gambling got the better of him (and his dad). And he came back with Pippen still there along with DPOY calibre Rodman. It was the same team plus another even better defensive big.

[Hey Yo]

Some of Sterns Jordan rules were the new flagrant foul being implemented and also moving the 3pt line in to Mike's long 2 range.

[3ball]

Some of Sterns Jordan rules were the new flagrant foul being implemented and also moving the 3pt line in to Mike's long 2 range.


FYI - moving the 3-point line inwards made shots MORE contested, since defenders didn't have to close out those extra 3-4 feet - this is significant, since 80% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406865) of today's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room.. So with a shortened line, teams wouldn't get the 4 feet that they've grown accustomed to in today's spaced out game.

Regarding Jordan's long two-point ability - everyone knows that players resort to midrange shots during the the most important part of the game when the defense is tightest: the clutch.. Accordingly, Jordan's goat midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) shooting is why he's the goat clutch player.
.

[soots]

The thing with MJs mid range game was he was so athletic every shot was basically uncontested in the air. Much like any guard 6'6 and shorter trying to guard Durant.

[CuterThanRubio]

FYI - moving the 3-point line inwards made shots MORE contested, since defenders didn't have to close out those extra 3-4 feet - this is significant, since 80% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406865) of today's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room.. So with a shortened line, teams wouldn't get the 4 feet that they've grown accustomed to in today's spaced out game.

Regarding Jordan's long two-point ability - everyone knows that players resort to midrange shots during the the most important part of the game when the defense is tightest: the clutch.. Accordingly, Jordan's goat midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) shooting is why he's the goat clutch player.
.

This is nonsense.

MJ shot 28% from the true distance

He wouldn't last in today's league

[guy]

Kobe won it in 2 (Bynum/Pau and Shaq).

Man that's rough :rolleyes: :oldlol:

[soots]

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with Curry's goat shooting ability.

lol. No way in hell he has Currys shooting ability. He adapted to MJ rules by getting stronger and driving in there for closer shots. He had an average outside game.

MJs athleticism today would be top tier, but there would be a few people who could match him. He was a pioneer, but todays athletes are just freaks. His freethrow dunk wouldnt even get him into the dunk comp. His shooting is sub par as statistics show. He would drive in there and draw fouls like Harden and penetrate twice as much as LBJ for high pc shots. All of this wont matter much if Curry is shooting 40+% from 3 point range. Those type of percentages cant be matched by a hakeem/Shaq type inside game. And you just add to that the fact that by being on the perimeter, the game has spread the floor. He would be tired from the new defensive schemes and swapping and changing to drive in there for 48 minutes a game. Just ask Harden/LBJ how hard it is to play defense and offense in todays spread floor.

The games changed

[CuterThanRubio]

LeBron is a better passer, defender, and three point shooter than Jordan


Coaches wouldn't be drawing up plays for midrange turnarounds, MJ would be on the bench late in games

[3ball]

lol. No way in hell he has Currys shooting ability.



Jordan was a FAR better jumpshooter than Curry inside 20 feet, on six times the volume:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga



Interestingly, good shooting isn't needed to be a top scorer in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) for most of their careers, yet they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had the goat midrange efficiency shown above, which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and gave him a similarly massive advantage over the aforementioned non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.

[bigkingsfan]

Comparing Jordan first option shot to Curry 3rd option. :whatever:

[soots]

Jordan was a FAR better jumpshooter than Curry inside 20 feet, on six times the volume:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga




Most cherry picked stats ive ever seen.

[3ball]

Most cherry picked stats ive ever seen.
:wtf:

Cherrypicked?

The stats showed both players' jumpshot efficiency inside 20 feet - how is that cherrypicking?

Jordan's was FAR better, on literally SIX times the volume.. It's not even close... Jordan was simply a far better jumpshooter inside 20 feet - the stats don't lie.

[3ball]

LeBron is a better three point shooter than Jordan



3-Point Percentages EXCLUDING 1995-1997 Shortened Line Seasons


...........................................Reg Season...................... Playoffs

Jordan's Career:........................28.8%.............. ............34.5%

.................................................. ................................... :eek:

Lebron Career: .........................34.0%.................... .......31.8%


So Jordan shot better on 3-pointers from the regular line when it MATTERED (the playoffs), even though he didn't like 3-pointers.. He said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2CyJdCq-zU&t=0m6s) that he "didn't want to excel at 3-pointers" because he thought it took away from his game.. And right before the 1992 Finals, he told the media that he ALLOWED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iuDTsLZUfo&t=6m50s) Drexler to be perceived as the better 3-point shooter - and then he showed the media what he meant in Game 1.. So imagine if Jordan actually TRIED to be good at 3-pointers like Lebron and today's players.






LeBron is a better defender


Just look at the 2015 Finals - even WITH Lebron shooting 39% and allowing Iggy an extra 10 ppg, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - clearly, if he shoots 50% and holds Iggy to his normal 7 ppg, the Cavs win easily.

Jordan never let a role player get 10 ppg above his average, and he never shot 39% against single-coverage, which is why he never lost in the Finals like Lebron did.

The 2015 Finals was no fluke - Lebron let Kawhi score 10 ppg above his average in 2014 Finals.. Overall, Lebron has 4 all-defensive selections, compared to Jordan's 9 and DPOY in the golden age for big men.. So it's not even close.





LeBron is a better passer


Jordan was good enough to average 11 assists in the Finals FROM THE SG POSITION.. Lebron isn't good enough to do this, even in his normal point guard, ball-dominant role.

Even though Lebron plays point guard and dominates the ball, he only averages 1.0 more assist in the playoffs.. Ultimately, he needs more time with the ball to accumulate assists - in last year's Finals, his time of possession was 12.0 minutes, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.1 minutes.. But even though Lebron dooms his team's chances at effective basketball by monopolizing the ball, you still give Lebron props for his assists - what a JOKE

When Jordan played point guard and got to dominate the ball like Lebron, he averaged 30/9/11 with 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - so he passed better than Lebron ever has at point guard and off-ball.. Lebron has zero case for being a better passer, while Jordan's case is very strong.





Coaches wouldn't be drawing up plays for midrange turnarounds, MJ would be on the bench late in games


Guys like Westbrook and Durant pull-up for midrange all the time - and it's super-easy because the spacing gives them tons of time and room to set up their man.

Jordan would have a field day under today's format, which leaves the middle of the floor (midrange area) wide open on every play - defenses purposefully GIVE UP midrange - that would be suicide against Jordan.
.

[sportjames23]

LeBron is a better passer, defender, and three point shooter than Jordan


Coaches wouldn't be drawing up plays for midrange turnarounds, MJ would be on the bench late in games


FOH, clown.

[3ball]

this is nonsense.


No it isn't - 80% of today's 3-pointers are taken with 4+ feet of room (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693) - but with a shortened line, defenders have 4 less feet to closeout on shooters, so shooters wouldn't have the 4 feet of room that they currently have.

By calling this logic and math "nonsense", you're in sheer denial of the facts.





MJ shot 29% from the true distance


That's essentially the same as Lebron shot this year and he's been a sub-par shooter for most of his career, including missing over 80% of his jumpshots in 2 different Finals - that's probably a record.. His midrange efficiency is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11712984&postcount=40), while his career 3-point percentage is 31% in the playoffs (34% in RS).

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler have sub-par 3-point and midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47) efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he was a goat midrange shooter (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.





MJ wouldn't last in today's league


Lebron and Curry's teams take 30 three-pointers per game, compared to 5 per game for the 1991 Bulls.. So it's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spreading the floor for them (spacing), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor.

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12338297&postcount=47), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism combined with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.
.

[julizaver]

I posted this video to show the youngsters how much MJ had to overcome to win titles. How much his opposition feared him that they specifically created a scheme to slow him down. That's respect.

On the flipside, LeBron saw single coverage for almost the entire 2015 finals. Can you imagine MJ being single covered? Dude would LITERALLY average 50 ppg. The guy averaged 41 ppg against constant doubles at the highest stage.

No secret that Jordan is better scorer and better one on one player than Lebron. He is more polished player, more skillfull and had more weapons on offense, the visible difference is the jump shot, Jordan could rely on it while Lebron's is average. Yet sometimes Lebron is as dominant as Jordan was with his game. Off course their game is very different and they are not easy to compare.
Had Jordan played vs GSW he would performed better than Lebron on offense even if he is guarded more tightly but GSW would still won.