According to NBA.com playtype statistics: (Question about Iso vs Spot Up plays)

[CavaliersFTW]

Isolation: When the possession ending event is created during a "one on one" matchup. The defender needs to be set and have all his defensive options at the initiation of the play.

Spot Up: When the possession ending event is a catch and shoot or catch and drive type of play

I'm busy putting together a full scouting vid on Elgin Baylor and several of his plays are tripping me up between those specific two categories. I understand that an isolation play involves no screen setters or generally nobody near the offensive player. BUT, Spot Up plays often have exactly the same spacing. At first I was lumping every play that Elgin caught the ball than exploded towards the basket or shot within 2 seconds as "Spot Up" but then I got to thinking. Some of these catch-and-shoot or catch-and-drives the defenders already appear to be set and ready, hands raised, feet planted defensively and all. They aren't off balance, they're ready. Elgin just doesn't take any time to make his move (a shot or drive). Would those quick decisions be an isolation because the defenders look set and ready? Or are they still catch and shoot? Bballbreakdown has done some highlight clips of James Harden, Steph Curry, and LeBron James doing "Spot Up" plays and all of his examples those players were wide open and defenders were charging at them from far away (not set and ready to defend). The plays I'm talking about don't look like this - the defenses were more prepared. I know this is a bit off topic from playoffs but anyone got any 2 cents?

[3ball]

.
Some players are skilled enough to isolate QUICKLY upon the catch - based on the criteria you provided, the gif below is an "isolation", but only very skilled players (like Baylor) are good enough to isolate this QUICKLY:


https://media.giphy.com/media/l0K4p6MX1r4LxOxTa/giphy.gif


Most players don't have the instincts, quick decision-making capability or skill/repertoire to isolate this quickly - most guys need time to think and set up their man.. Btw, this type of play probably ALSO fits the "spot-up" or "catch-and-go" categories.

[CavaliersFTW]

.
Some players are skilled enough to isolate QUICKLY upon the catch - based on the criteria you provided, the gif below is an "isolation", but only very skilled players (like Baylor) are good enough to isolate this QUICKLY:


https://media.giphy.com/media/l0K4p6MX1r4LxOxTa/giphy.gif


However, this type of play probably ALSO fits the "spot-up" or "catch-and-go" categories as well.
It is EXACTLY like that play, like, they look virtually identical to that same move and everything, with a defender right there - the other few in question are some hand-in-face jumpers too.

Plays where the defender if you freeze-frame it would appear to have been set with his feet and hands in ready-as-will-ever-be position. But it all happens so quick I had initially called it Spot Up however it looks nothing like Spot Up examples bballbreakdown was using where those guys were basically wide open with defenders who got lost in traffic or turned their heads. In his examples, Spot Up seemed to be a wide-open play which made me 2nd guess the criteria.

[3ball]

It is EXACTLY like that play, like, they look virtually identical to that same move and everything, with a defender right there - the other few in question are some hand-in-face jumpers too.

Plays where the defender if you freeze-frame it would appear to have been set with his feet and hands in ready-as-will-ever-be position. But it all happens so quick I had initially called it Spot Up however it looks nothing like Spot Up examples bballbreakdown was using where those guys were basically wide open with defenders who got lost in traffic or turned their heads. In his examples, Spot Up seemed to be a wide-open play which made me 2nd guess the criteria.
Previous eras didn't have today's 3-point shooting to space out defenders - with defenders always in closer proximity, players needed to act quicker with the ball.

Otoh, today's spacing gives players more time and room to set up their man than previous eras that lacked spacing.. This is just one of the reasons pace is slower today (in addition to teams simply needing to run more offense to get 3-point looks, which need to be higher quality looks than 2-pointers - i'm sure the Elgin footage shows that teams ran up and down taking one contested 2-pointer after another without needing to run as much offense.. even transition shots were routinely contested, since defenders sprinted to the PAINT in transition, not the 3-point line like today)
.

[CavaliersFTW]

Previous eras didn't have today's 3-point shooting to space out defenders - with defenders always in closer proximity, players needed to act quicker with the ball.

In today's game, the spacing gives players more time and room to set up their man than previous eras that lacked spacing.. This is just one of the reasons pace is slower today (in addition to teams simply needing to run more offense to get 3-point looks, which need to be higher quality looks than 2-pointers)
Well then let me ask you this. Say you were making a scouting video for MJ. Would you categorize the gif you just showed me as a spot up play? Or an isolation play? You must choose only one, which do you pick?

[Im Still Ballin]

This thread is going to be added to the InsideHoops compendium,

[3ball]

Well then let me ask you this. Say you were making a scouting video for MJ. Would you categorize the gif you just showed me as a spot up play? Or an isolation play? You must choose only one, which do you pick?


I would categorize it as a catch-and-go... If you don't, you'll find that Baylor's isolation frequency will be VERY high - given ambiguity we're having itt about isolations, and the widespread misperception of what an isolation really is (most people think it's a playground-style clearout), a high isolation frequency will create a perception that Baylor is a lesser player than he really is.

This is what happened to when ISH poster PHILA created a Jordan shot chart (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950) - he categorized ALL catch-and-go's as isolations, which drastically inflated Jordan's isolation stat and likely made him look like a clearout-player to new fans.

I would categorize any shot where Baylor makes his move INSTANTLY upon the catch as a catch-and-go, and anytime he takes longer than 1 second, it's an iso
.

[CavaliersFTW]

I would categorize it as a catch-and-go... If you don't, you'll find that Baylor's isolation frequency will be VERY high - given ambiguity we're having itt about isolations, and the widespread misperception of what an isolation really is (most people think it's a playground-style clearout), a high isolation frequency will create a perception that Baylor is a lesser player than he really is.

This is what happened to when ISH poster PHILA created a Jordan shot chart of his 1992 season (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950) - he categorized ALL catch-and-go's as isolations, which drastically inflated Jordan's isolation stat and likely made him look like a clearout-player to new fans.
Well, there are still plenty of spot-up plays of Baylor that are that more obvious lots-of-space variety where he was left open and became elusive - there's only about 8 "questionable" plays like the gif you showed me here with at least a dozen that would still remain as clear-cut Spot Ups. If those 8 go in isolation or spot up, it would inflate the isolation category and reduce the spot up but it wouldn't be a huge huge downside if it's more honest to call it that. Still think I should make them Spot Ups?

[CavaliersFTW]

I see your edit, okay I'll try to keep that in mind.

[3ball]

Well, there are still plenty of spot-up plays of Baylor that are that more obvious lots-of-space variety where he was left open and became elusive - there's only about less than a dozen "questionable" plays like the gif you showed me here. Maybe 8 of them. If those 8 go in isolation or spot up, it would inflate the isolation category and reduce the spot up but it wouldn't be a huge huge downside if it's more honest to call it that. Still think I should make them Spot Ups?
I would categorize it as a catch-and-go (spot-up) anytime Baylor makes his move INSTANTLY upon the catch.

And when he takes longer than 1 second to make his move, it's an iso

If you categorize them ALL as isolations (even the instant catch-and-go's where there's no one else around), you'll find that Baylor's isolation frequency is extremely high, which hurts his perception (essentially penalizing him for being able to isolate quicker than most players).

[CavaliersFTW]

I would categorize it as a catch-and-go (spot-up) anytime Baylor makes his move INSTANTLY upon the catch.

And when he takes longer than 1 second to make his move, it's an iso

If you categorize them ALL as isolations (even the instant catch-and-go's where there's no one else around), you'll find that Baylor's isolation frequency is extremely high, which penalizes him for being able to isolate quicker than most players.
Well I've already got 21 plays that are not event questionable to me though, that are NOT iso plays and are for sure Spot Ups, as they look like the traditional Spot Up plays we see in the game today where someone is shading to some other player and loses too much ground between themselves and Baylor and he's got lots of daylight as no one is near or prepared to defend him. Those aren't going under the ISO category at all.

There's 12 plays on top of that though (I just counted), that I initially had put in that Spot Up category that I'm now questioning if they should be in the Iso category. We're talking a difference of 33 examples vs 21. Switching them certainly wouldn't make people think he couldn't spot up or was too Iso heavy I don't think. I'm more about trying to be honest, rather than trying to worry about what other peoples perceptions are - I can explain to people with later videos or in comments sections why things are one way or the other when they question styles of play and how much he relied on one facet of a game or another.

[3ball]

Well I've already got 21 plays that are not event questionable to me though, that are NOT iso plays and are for sure Spot Ups, as they look like the traditional Spot Up plays we see in the game today where someone is shading to some other player and loses too much ground between themselves and Baylor and he's got lots of daylight as no one is near or prepared to defend him. Those aren't going under the ISO category at all.

There's 12 plays on top of that though (I just counted), that I initially had put in that Spot Up category that I'm now questioning if they should be in the Iso category. We're talking a difference of 33 examples vs 21. Switching them certainly wouldn't make people think he couldn't spot up or was too Iso heavy I don't think. I'm more about trying to be honest, rather than trying to worry about what other peoples perceptions are - I can explain to people with later videos or in comments sections why things are one way or the other when they question styles of play and how much he relied on one facet of a game or another.


I was referring specifically to catch-and-go's (spot-ups) where the player makes a driving move immediately upon the catch (like the previous gif) - if you categorize all of these as isolations, that will cause Baylor's isolation frequency to be ridiculously high, which hurts his perception (essentially penalizing him for having the superior skill needed to isolate QUICKLY)

For example, PHILA's data says Jordan isolated 50% of the time.. That's unfortunate, since people think he was clearing out half the time - they don't realize Jordan isolated QUICKER than anyone in history - but that's what happens when you categorize all the plays like the previous gif as isolations instead of catch-and-go's.. I think the aforementioned 1 second rule mitigates these issues.