2016 playoffs Kyrie is the best sidekick LeBron has had since 2012 playoffs Wade

[Im Still Ballin]

2016 Playoffs

Kyrie
RAPM: +5.9 (+6.8 Offensive/-0.9 Defensive)
+5.0 Net Rating

LeBron
RAPM: +10.6 (+5.8 Offensive/+4.8 Defensive)
+25.0 Net Rating

2012 Playoffs

Wade
RAPM: +4.1 (+2.2 Offensive/1.9 Defensive)
+11.4 Net Rating

LeBron
RAPM: +11.0 (+8.2 Offensive/+2.8 Defensive)
+24.3 Net Rating

[ImKobe]

Irving with more winshares and averages more points on a higher TS%, 2 less assists but turns the ball over half as much as Bran.

[Im Still Ballin]

Irving with more winshares and averages more points on a higher TS%, 2 less assists but turns the ball over half as much as Bran.
That's because LeBron is getting collapsed on/double teamed inside

Shooters getting it easy

Hockey assists and easy single coverage shots for Kyrie

Plus you didn't even mention defense

Kyrie is a net NEGATIVE on defense, whereas LeBron is statistically and clearly the most important and best defender on the team

Check the numbers

[GimmeThat]

Kyrie would destroy Tony Parker

I wouldn't say certainly he is better than any version of Bosh
but he helps Lebron play close to the basket.

[ImKobe]

That's because LeBron is getting collapsed on/double teamed inside

Shooters getting it easy

Hockey assists and easy single coverage shots for Kyrie

Plus you didn't even mention defense

Kyrie is a net NEGATIVE on defense, whereas LeBron is statistically and clearly the most important and best defender on the team

Check the numbers

Hey I get the numbers, Irving doesn't rebound and can be a turnstile on that end, but his shooting ability on the offensive end helps out Lebron as much as Lebron's play-making helps out his scoring, both feed off each other's talents.

If Lebron didn't have either Love/Irving his scoring efficiency would dip like it did last year, and he gets away with shooting 60% from the line. Just not convinced by the numbers due to their competition tbh.

[Im Still Ballin]

Hey I get the numbers, Irving doesn't rebound and can be a turnstile on that end, but his shooting ability on the offensive end helps out Lebron as much as Lebron's play-making helps out his scoring, both feed off each other's talents.

If Lebron didn't have either Love/Irving his scoring efficiency would dip like it did last year, and he gets away with shooting 60% from the line. Just not convinced by the numbers due to their competition tbh.
2016 Playoffs

Kyrie
RAPM: +5.9 (+6.8 Offensive/-0.9 Defensive)
+5.0 Net Rating

LeBron
RAPM: +10.6 (+5.8 Offensive/+4.8 Defensive)
+25.0 Net Rating

The numbers show who is clearly the best player and more important

There is no argument

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe stans

Always forgetting defense

Just like Shaq, LeBron is the most important player on both ends of the court

[ImKobe]

2016 Playoffs

Kyrie
RAPM: +5.9 (+6.8 Offensive/-0.9 Defensive)
+5.0 Net Rating

LeBron
RAPM: +10.6 (+5.8 Offensive/+4.8 Defensive)
+25.0 Net Rating

The numbers show who is clearly the best player and more important

There is no argument

The numbers are relative to the opposition and the rotations they put out.

[Im Still Ballin]

The numbers are relative to the opposition and the rotations they put out.
And we judge based on performance, irrelevant of who the opposition is. Performance is performance. Are you really this dumb? LeBron is the one winning them games here. He is the common denominator in all the most successful lineups the Cavs have used in the playoffs.. With starters, with bench players, with Kyrie, WITHOUT KYRIE.

[knicksman]

Lebron doing the dirty work for batman kyrie:bowdown:

If they win this year, he will dethrone pippen as the best sidekick ever. A megastar sidekick? Damn

And oh, op is a proven real life loser:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Are you seriously using on/off. That stat means nothing, Shaq had a negative on/off in 2001 playoffs. Worthless stats.

No surprise that Kyrie keeps leading the team and the entire conference in scoring while being more efficient than Lebron has Lebron fans making threads calling Kyrie a side kick. What a pathetic fan base :oldlol: :oldlol:

The same fan base that props up Gasol as some all time great for averaging 18ppg in the playoffs, belittles the guy dropping 25 per game while leading the team in scoring. Love puts up 18/12, literally the same points/rebounds as Gasol & he's the third option lmao.

Lebrons fans need to accept the fact that this cavs team is stacked as hell and has more talent in the supporting cast than any of those 08-10 laker teams had, the same teams you idiots love to claim were stacked.

No excuses not to win a title this year.

[ImKobe]

Kobe stans

Always forgetting defense

Just like Shaq, LeBron is the most important player on both ends of the court

2001 Lakers Playoffs

BPM: Kobe 7.3 Shaq 7.1
WS: Kobe 3.8 Shaq 3.7

Kobe averaged twice as many assists being the main playmaker that he was while also averaging less turnovers than Shaq

If Shaq was such a great defender, why did Duncan, Webber, Sabonis, Divac not struggle scoring against him? Why did Shaq never even come close to winning DPOY? I recall Shaq not getting a single vote at all in 2002 while Kobe was the only wing player to get one

Kobe finished above Shaq in 2002, 2003, 2004 in DPOY voting, more MVP votes than Shaq in 2003 and 2004 :rolleyes:

[Dray n Klay]

LOL 2000-2002 Kobe Shaq finals stats


Kobe: 22 Ppg 5rbs on 41%


Shaq- 36ppg 15rbs on 56%





Stop trying to bring up role players like 2000-2002 Kobe into this debate

[Im Still Ballin]

1) You are using stats solely and not as a support to context itself

We don't need to argue context/gameplan for the Cavs, because we know LeBron is the engine and runs this team.

The same way we know that Shaq was the engine for the Lakers, and his ability to create double teams, made their offense work.

We also can support these with TEAM RECORDS of when LeBron and Shaq were both injured. Need I say more?

[Im Still Ballin]

In games featuring O'Neal but not Bryant, the Lakers are 36-8, an .818 winning percentage.

In games featuring Bryant but not O'Neal, the Lakers are 53-45, a .541 winning percentage.

- Jan 11 2004

[Im Still Ballin]

Cavaliers are now 4-13 without LeBron since his return to Cleveland

[Im Still Ballin]

When O'Neal was injured during his three peat, the Lakers had a regular-season record of 12-11 (52.17 percent).

When Kobe was injured, the Lakers' regular season record was 25-7 (78 percent).

[Im Still Ballin]

when Kobe Bryant shoots less than 21 shots, the Lakers were 39-3.

- 2009

[ImKobe]

When O'Neal was injured during his three peat, the Lakers had a regular-season record of 12-11 (52.17 percent).

When Kobe was injured, the Lakers' regular season record was 25-7 (78 percent).


regular season

2000 Lakers lost more games than they did with Kobe playing, 2002 Kobe missed 2 games, so basically all you have to go with is the 2001 regular season , yet in that Playoff run Kobe led the lakers in on/off court stats (that you value so highly in every other debate) and winshares

And mind you that we are comparing a 21-23 year old Kobe to peak Shaq :rolleyes:

[ImKobe]

when Kobe Bryant shoots less than 21 shots, the Lakers were 39-3.

- 2009

Kobe averaged under 21 shots per game in 2009 and shot ~47%.

[Im Still Ballin]

regular season

2000 Lakers lost more games than they did with Kobe playing, 2002 Kobe missed 2 games, so basically all you have to go with is the 2001 regular season , yet in that Playoff run Kobe led the lakers in on/off court stats (that you value so highly in every other debate) and winshares

And mind you that we are comparing a 21-23 year old Kobe to peak Shaq :rolleyes:
Oh because prime Kobe was doing special things

-Missed playoffs
-1st round loss
-1st round loss

[ImKobe]

Oh because prime Kobe was doing special things

-Missed playoffs
-1st round loss
-1st round loss

so 2008-2010 didn't happen?

Did Shaq even make consecutive Finals runs without Kobe? :oldlol:

Kobe without Shaq - 3 Finals appearances, 2 championships, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Shaq without Kobe - 2 Finals appearances, 1 championship, 0 FMVPs, 0 MVPs

Shaq played with Penny and Grant - made 1 Finals got swept by Hakeem
Shaq played with Wade, Zo - made 1 Finals and won averaging 13 ppg in the series, got swept as the defending champs by Luol Deng Bulls
Shaq left Miami for a stacked Suns squad - missed Playoffs and lost in the first round the following year
Shaq left Phoenix to play with prime Lebron - 2nd round loss
Shaq left prime Lebron to play with the Boston big 3 - 2nd round loss and career-ending achilles injury

Kobe did so much better despite going through a rebuilding phase in his prime while Shaq hopped on every possible bandwagon.

[Dray n Klay]

Oh because prime Kobe was doing special things

-Missed playoffs
-1st round loss
-1st round loss

#rekt

[Prime_Shaq]

Kyrie's ability to shoot opens up the LeBron's game much more than Wade ever did. Its not to diminish Wade as a player, but I never thought LeBron and Wade complimented each other particularly well.

[SexSymbol]

I think the competition isn't as great as it was in 2012, like not even half as good.

[SexSymbol]

Oh because prime Kobe was doing special things

-Missed playoffs
-1st round loss
-1st round loss
also 5 rings, 30k+ points and constant demolition of every nba team

[ImKobe]

Oh because prime Kobe was doing special things

-Missed playoffs
-1st round loss
-1st round loss

so 2008-2010 didn't happen?

Did Shaq even make consecutive Finals runs without Kobe? :oldlol:

Kobe without Shaq - 3 Finals appearances, 2 championships, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP
Shaq without Kobe - 2 Finals appearances, 1 championship, 0 FMVPs, 0 MVPs

Shaq played with Penny and Grant - made 1 Finals got swept by Hakeem
Shaq played with Wade, Zo - made 1 Finals and won averaging 13 ppg in the series, got swept as the defending champs by Luol Deng Bulls
Shaq left Miami for a stacked Suns squad - missed Playoffs and lost in the first round the following year
Shaq left Phoenix to play with prime Lebron - 2nd round loss
Shaq left prime Lebron to play with the Boston big 3 - 2nd round loss and career-ending achilles injury

Kobe did so much better despite going through a rebuilding phase in his prime while Shaq hopped on every possible bandwagon.

[Flower_]

No excuses not to win a title this year.

Actually there is one excuse. They will play against argualby the best team of all time sooo...

[moongaze]

Kyrie's rendered the last two starting point guards ineffective. Teague had a poor series against the cavs and lowry is performing awful. Kyrie's defense has been good.

[NBAGOAT]

Kyrie's ability to shoot opens up the LeBron's game much more than Wade ever did. Its not to diminish Wade as a player, but I never thought LeBron and Wade complimented each other particularly well.

yep that's one flaw with both of them. Their lack of shooting causes portability issues while shooters fit well with pretty much anyone. Lebron had to be a spot up guy at times in Miami which he did pretty well but still isn't playing to his strengths.

[moongaze]

Hey I get the numbers, Irving doesn't rebound and can be a turnstile on that end, but his shooting ability on the offensive end helps out Lebron as much as Lebron's play-making helps out his scoring, both feed off each other's talents.

If Lebron didn't have either Love/Irving his scoring efficiency would dip like it did last year, and he gets away with shooting 60% from the line. Just not convinced by the numbers due to their competition tbh.

This. Lebron shoots better when love and Irving are on the court. Without them he's forced to be the main offensive weapon surrounded by guys that don't possess the skills of those two to score and create

[Im Still Ballin]

This. Lebron shoots better when love and Irving are on the court. Without them he's forced to be the main offensive weapon surrounded by guys that don't possess the skills of those two to score and create
Oh no.

REALLY?

You think?