Larry Bird is a logical thinker! (the NBA is better now than ever)

[CuterThanRubio]

[QUOTE]

[Monta Ellis MVP]

Larry Bird is one of the greatest basketball minds ever. He knows what he is talking about.

[stalkerforlife]

It doesn't matter if this era is the best if one guy ruins it by colluding with multiple superstars every single year.

WTF does it matter?

[elementally morale]

It doesn't matter if this era is the best if one guy ruins it by colluding with multiple superstars every single year.

WTF does it matter?


Why would he ruin it? I'm sure you enjoy rooting against him. You are being entertained, aren't you? Is that not the real purpose of the NBA?

[stalkerforlife]

Why would he ruin it? I'm sure you enjoy rooting against him. You are being entertained, aren't you? Is that not the real purpose of the NBA?

Hell no I am not being entertained by this cowardly fraudulent BS. Who the hell would be entertained by the eastern conference playoffs? No team stands a chance because of the cowardly colluding and stacking.

And the point is to entertain, but not predetermine outcomes by cowardly stacking and colluding.

I am entertained by legitimate competition.

[tmacattack33]

You should be able to realize that the league is probably better now just by using common sense.

The game is more popular and the game is now international, which means the talent pool is larger.

And nutrition and training methods get better over time not worse.

[jstern]

The key thing that he says is that these kids have more freedom to get to the basket. As in less defense, smaller player are allowed to be more productive unlike the past. He prefers that, but other feel it's artificial. Birds comment sounds more of a matter of his preferred style.

You will not see anyone with Birds mid-range game again with these rules. We're just going to see more 3 pointers, and that's just a less all around skillful style. Not my style.

[Marchesk]

Hell no I am not being entertained by this cowardly fraudulent BS. Who the hell would be entertained by the eastern conference playoffs? No team stands a chance because of the cowardly colluding and stacking.

Isn't that the rest of the Eastern Conference's fault for not putting better teams on the floor?

[jstern]

You should be able to realize that the league is probably better now just by using common sense.

The game is more popular and the game is now international, which means the talent pool is larger.

And nutrition and training methods get better over time not worse.

You do know that less under 18 kids play less basketball than they did in the 90s. And by a lot.

[Poetry]

Larry knows!
"They have more freedom to get to the basket."

That's exactly why people think MJ would have averaged 45+ today.

[stalkerforlife]

Isn't that the rest of the Eastern Conference's fault for not putting better teams on the floor?

:wtf:

How the hell are you going to compete with those cowards? Do you want the rest of the superstars in the league to become cowards and team up, too? A lot of superstars hopefully hate the idea of leaving their own team to form a super team; it discredits anything they do.

The Cavs third best player is better than any single player they've faced so far in the playoffs.

[Reggie43]

He was pretty obsessed with these modern/small ball lineups and it failed miserably for the Pacers. Trying to play PGeorge at the 4 spot and getting 5 guards in the lineup who all need the ball to be effective :facepalm If he just signed a starting quality big instead of all those combo guards the Pacers probably reach the Conference Finals easy..

[juju151111]

"They have more freedom to get to the basket."

That's exactly why people think MJ would have averaged 45+ today.
Mj is not averging 45, but definitely 37 like he did before with better efficiency. Especially if he has floor spacers.

[stalkerforlife]

Bird is the greatest SF of all time, but after his latest blunder of firing Vogel just to hire McMillan, I think it's safe to say he's going senile.

[Poetry]

:wtf:

How the hell are you going to compete with those cowards? Do you want the rest of the superstars in the league to become cowards and team up, too? A lot of superstars hopefully hate the idea of leaving their own team to form a super team; it discredits anything they do.

"Hopefully the league can figure out one way where it can go back to the '80s where you had three or four All-Stars, three or four superstars, three or four Hall-of-Famers on the same team. The league was great. It wasn't as watered down as it is [today]."

-LeBron James

[Marchesk]

Lebron's right. Do we really need a league where you have a team tanking for five years, another team serving as a year long retirement party, and a third stinking up the joint in the biggest media center?

[stalkerforlife]

"Hopefully the league can figure out one way where it can go back to the '80s where you had three or four All-Stars, three or four superstars, three or four Hall-of-Famers on the same team. The league was great. It wasn't as watered down as it is [today]."

-LeBron James

Relative to the eras and the talent pool at both given times, what Bran has done is unprecedented.

And those stars weren't leaving their own teams to form super teams.

Not even someone like Wilkins left his own team after years of not having enough ammo to compete for a title; he wanted to beat the best, not join them.

Ring chasing is relegated for older players that haven't gotten it done yet, NOT PRIME SUPERSTARS.

[Marchesk]

Ring chasing is relegated for older players that haven't gotten it done yet, NOT PRIME SUPERSTARS.

http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/55fi9r/picture2298632/ALTERNATES/FREE_640/Kings_Lakers044.source.prod_affiliate.4.jpg

[stalkerforlife]

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/614.png

Yes, he did it well after his prime. It wasn't respectable, but it wasn't anything close to what Bran has done.

What's your point?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP completely disregards what Larry is trying to say, ignoring the tidbit in regards to paint freedom. :oldlol: He also never said "the NBA is better now".

Fantastic analysis though. :cheers:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Bird would be an absolute beast in today's league, he'd kill it in small ball line-ups.

[bdonovan]

Not just objectivity, but humility. There are always factors For/Against the argument the new era is better. Those former players whose ego is invested in their being the greatest player/team will always dwell on the latter.

[plowking]

The key thing that he says is that these kids have more freedom to get to the basket. As in less defense, smaller player are allowed to be more productive unlike the past. He prefers that, but other feel it's artificial. Birds comment sounds more of a matter of his preferred style.

You will not see anyone with Birds mid-range game again with these rules. We're just going to see more 3 pointers, and that's just a less all around skillful style. Not my style.

You know most of us have seen games from the 70's, 80's and 90's right? We saw the open lanes, and how unimpeded players were getting to the basket. Having more fights occasionally and being able to hit the player harder without getting an unsportsmanlike foul on you called doesn't mean the game was harder or easier.

Basketball is worth probably 100 times more as a business now than it was then. Maybe even more so actually. Players are worth more, literally, going by their contracts. Advanced studies and statistics are being run all day long. They are getting to the point where basketball is down to a science. I mean they made a damn movie about it in terms of baseball.

I don't care how much some of you like basketball from 25 or 35 years ago, it is unequivocally better now. I don't mean that in the sense of, the current Cavs, OKC or GSW will beat all the great teams from back in the day. I mean it in the sense that on average, basketball, and the NBA is a hell of a lot better than back in the day. The overall standard is higher.

[AintNoSunshine]

Hell no I am not being entertained by this cowardly fraudulent BS. Who the hell would be entertained by the eastern conference playoffs? No team stands a chance because of the cowardly colluding and stacking.

And the point is to entertain, but not predetermine outcomes by cowardly stacking and colluding.

I am entertained by legitimate competition.:oldlol: :oldlol: yo for real you need to watch yourbblood pressure. I am being serious.

[keep-itreal]

no wonder he fired Vogel.

You don't have a Steph Curry on the Pacers, so why the **** would he play small ball

[tpols]

The key thing that he says is that these kids have more freedom to get to the basket. As in less defense, smaller player are allowed to be more productive unlike the past. .

it sounds like he's clearly implying that the spacing from everyone being able to shoot better nowadays has allowed smaller guards to flourish because their driving lanes are larger. It's not "less defense", its just a completely different advanced team style of play.

[stalkerforlife]

:oldlol: :oldlol: yo for real you need to watch yourbblood pressure. I am being serious.

I take medicine for high blood pressure. :cheers:

[G0ATbe]

Good to see not every old era player is a salty piece of shit like the stans:applause: .


The real watered down NBA was throughout the 1900s. League finally started to improve in the 2000s.

[r0drig0lac]

"Hopefully the league can figure out one way where it can go back to the '80s where you had three or four All-Stars, three or four superstars, three or four Hall-of-Famers on the same team. The league was great. It wasn't as watered down as it is [today]."

-LeBron James
:lol

[Nilocon165]

Good to see not every old era player is a salty piece of shit like the stans:applause: .


The real watered down NBA was throughout the 1900s. League finally started to improve in the 2000s.
Michael Jordan was a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant was.

I'm legitimately concerned that you don't understand this.

[BenchMob]

Define greatest era for me.

In terms of spreading the game for little men as well, it is the greatest era. However, in terms of competition, drama, physicality, intricacies within the game(now it's just pick and rolls + space the floor + jack up 3's), today's era is not that appealing to true hoop fans.

I admit it is fun watching GSW but when other teams tried to implement the same stuff.. it's just meh to me. I want more unique teams with unique styles.

Today's league might be more appealing for the general public. But in essence the whole package is a total meh. Silver has to assess the current era rationally and improve on it. It can definitely can get better. A LOT BETTER.

[inclinerator]

bird and magic were always the humble ones

[jstern]

This is what the league is becoming.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2016/yGTDtL.gif

James Harden is a very skilled player, so if he played in the 90s I'm sure he would have created something there instead of going back to the 3 point line.

And that's the point that many people have. That players don't need to bother developing a more skillful mid range game, because with the rules changes that have allowed more perimeter players to thrive, why bother developing a high IQ midrange game, when you can simplistically just shoot 3 pointers.

Imagine this future of a very skilled midrange player, with an average 3 point shot. But a spot up shooter will get more minutes than them because he has the space to shoot a wide open shot in a regular basis. The more skillful player is going shine less and play less minute. And not even get the minutes develop his game even further. Potential super star lost because of a spot up shooter.

[Goofsta Knicca]

Or as Chuck sayz... Larrah Burrd

[CuterThanRubio]

"They have more freedom to get to the basket."

That's exactly why people think MJ would have averaged 45+ today.


Then why didn't anyone average more than 30 this season?

There are players in the league now who can get to the rim and score just as good, if not better than Jordan, but the best shooter is the best scorer, please explain.

[Round Mound]

There was once a time that there was no 3-pointline in basketball. It was an addition to the game lets remember. If it was eliminated the NBA would look bad today because there are no post players and the ball movement an b-ball iq isnt as good as before.

:confusedshrug:

[oarabbus]

Or as Chuck sayz... Larrah Burrd

:oldlol:

[plowking]

There was once a time that there was no 3-pointline in basketball. It was an additionto the game. If it was eliminated the NBA would look bad because there are no post players today and the ball movement an b-ball iq isnt as good as before.

:confusedshrug:

There is plenty of post play, it just isn't essential in the style of ball that is played. Ball movement is better than ever. The Miami Heat a couple years ago set the record for most passes in a season. Then that record was broken by the Spurs. Stop posting absolute bullshit that sounds like you know a lick about what is actually going on.

Post play isn't used because it isn't as effective. Look at Al Jefferson led teams. How well do they do? The 3 point style of play is an effective one, and the best one. It is statistically more efficient than any other, so why change?

If they took away the 3 point line, teams like Charlotte might be better. But the 3 point line is a part of the game, and has been for a long, long time.

[Pointguard]

You should be able to realize that the league is probably better now just by using common sense.

The game is more popular and the game is now international, which means the talent pool is larger.

And nutrition and training methods get better over time not worse.
Talent pool is bigger but there are no skilled post men. Therefore, bigger talent pool does not guarantee talent pool produces better players. Nutrition and training does not produce skilled big men. Therefore your logic can be applied.

[Reggie43]

Place somebody like Shaq in todays league and all these "modern" teams would be scrambling to add atleast 2 extra bigs to defend him. Just bevause they are no decent post players doesnt mean.the style of play is less effective, its all about the personnel...

[3ball]

.
..NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)


.......................Midrange Efficiency .


Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%... 96/259

D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):....... 35.9%.. 113/315

Westbrook 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 36.9%.. 164/445

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101



Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL have sub-par 3-point and midrange efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had goat midrange efficiency, even better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

Btw, Lebron's midrange percentage is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) and his career 3-point percentage is only 31% in the playoffs... He also missed over 80% of his jumpshots in 2 different Finals - that's probably a record.. Clearly, today's wide open spacing and subsequent easy rim access allows players like Lebron to excel WITHOUT being able to shoot.
.

[3ball]

.
The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man:


...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Tracey McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Klay Thompson.......... Penny Hardaway


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



^^^^^ Remember, this is just the wing players - if we add the bigs, previous eras blow today's era to Mars.

Don't be surprised that previous eras produced better players - 2-pointers are more contested and scored in a wide variety of ways, whereas today's 3-pointers are mostly wide open (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12377320), catch-and-shoots.. So it makes perfect sense that the eras that took more 2-pointers produced better players.. For example, Kyle Lowry was 10th in MVP voting this season, compared to Shaq in 1996.
.

[3ball]

why bother developing a high IQ midrange game, when you can simplistically just shoot 3 pointers.


Or get to the rim - in that same interview, Bird said "they (today's player) has more freedom to get to the hole".

This allows many of today's top scorers to thrive without being good shooters - Lebron's midrange percentage is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) and his career 3-point percentage in the playoffs is only 31%.

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have sub-par 3-point and midrange efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had goat midrange efficiency, even better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat
.