Lebron couldn't take advantage of Lowry in the post

[FKAri]

This was the Raptors' response to the Biyombo/Frye conundrum. And Like JJ Barea and Jason Terry before him Lowry was able to effectively prevent Lebron from doing any scoring in the post.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/09/08/110908041029190258.gif

[ballinhun8]

**raises glasses upwards**


Errrr sirs, according to my ISB index, LeBron does average 37 ppp while being guarded by players 6'2 or shorter within 75 ft of the basket and while the weather in the arena is a cool 67 fahrenheit

-basketballreference4dummies.net

[plowking]

His team couldn't get him the ball actually. Bron passed it out when the double came, sat there waiting for the re-entry pass, and JR decided to dance with the ball and get his 3 pointer blocked. Same thing happened again but with Kyrie.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

His team couldn't get him the ball actually. Bron passed it out when the double came, sat there waiting for the re-entry pass, and JR decided to dance with the ball and get his 3 pointer blocked. Same thing happened again but with Kyrie.
Due to Lowry's great ball denial and positioning . Bran never had sound positioning or footwork so the shooters had to make something happen since another entry pass would be risky and when they tried Lowry stole it

[FKAri]

His team couldn't get him the ball actually. Bron passed it out when the double came, sat there waiting for the re-entry pass, and JR decided to dance with the ball and get his 3 pointer blocked. Same thing happened again but with Kyrie.
But Lebron plays as it as if he's being a decoy and not even trying to score. He never makes any quick move to score on the catch. Though I agree that when a hard double comes he should pass it out.

[plowking]

Due to Lowry's great ball denial and positioning . Bran never had sound positioning or footwork so the shooters had to make something happen since another entry pass would be risky and when they tried Lowry stole it

He is 6'2 and he was behind him in the post the whole time. What ball denial? :oldlol:

Stop bullshitting. :oldlol:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He is 6'2 and he was behind him in the post the whole time. What ball denial? :oldlol:

Stop bullshitting. :oldlol:
Meltdown
Bran got shut down by Lowry in the post everyone saw it

[3ball]

and JR decided to dance with the ball and get his 3 pointer blocked. Same thing happened again but with Kyrie.


That's a failure of leadership.

That would never happen to Jordan.. His teammates new better






Actually, Lebron couldn't get the ball in the post



Lebron's only post move is bully-ball (pounding the rock while he slowly backs his man down), which takes forever.. He can't make QUICK, sophisticated moves that foster a superior brand of basketball like Jordan:


https://media.giphy.com/media/WaFRus5AZcR8c/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/Z79Ha3anKDujC/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/tDcpcUrIibpvi/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT4uQoN51xmHONisr6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/2Aq4mhbE0Iko/giphy.gif

[sportjames23]

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/09/08/110908041029190258.gif

:oldlol:

Damn, how could a dude this big NOT have a post game and have to resort to pushing off midgets?

[Done_And_Done]

I feel that the thread title is erroneous.

It's not that he couldn't take advantage of Lowry, it's that he didn't try. Much the way we seen him do on a multifarious of occasions in the past, Lebron simply deferred...

[plowking]

That would never happen to Jordan.. His teammates new better





What is new? Brand new.

Hey guys. "New".

[Im Still Ballin]

You guys didn't watch the game

He didn't take advantage because he was getting double teamed, or at least Biyombo was standing right behind Lowry

A fadeaway from the post is a low efficiency shot.. LeBron uses the post mainly to score inside... He balances this with willing passing/great ability to find the open man

LeBron dominated the game today from the high and low posts... That 11/11 run to start the 4th was from LeBron playing the high post, and being the roll man, creating open looks

His low post was working early, but then Biyombo and the weakside defense started to double his path, so he made the right pass

[bluechox2]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt24eVTypwUuF3Zm/giphy.gif

[3ball]

A fadeaway from the post is a low efficiency shot..


:facepalm ... :oldlol:

it must suck to not understand the game - players that shoot fadeaways EFFICIENTLY foster great chemistry and brand of basketball because fadeaways allow players to score QUICKLY and are basically impossible for defenses to prevent

:confusedshrug: .. :banana:


btw, help defense normally meets a good rim attacker in the paint - otoh, a good jumpshooter commands more overt double-teaming on the PERIMETER, since that's what it takes to prevent a jumpshot

jordan's combination of rim attack and goat midrange jumpshooting made him the most double-teamed perimeter player of all time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).
.

[Im Still Ballin]

:facepalm ... :oldlol:

it must suck to not understand the game - players that shoot fadeaways EFFICIENTLY foster great chemistry and brand of basketball because fadeaways allow players to score QUICKLY and are basically impossible for defenses to prevent

:confusedshrug: .. :banana:


btw, help defense normally meets a good rim attacker in the paint - otoh, a good jumpshooter commands MORE overt double-teaming on the perimeter, since that's what it takes to prevent a jumpshot
Nothing was stopping LeBron getting an open fade in the post

Low IQ shot though

Lower efficiency than a standard long two

Personally I think LeBron needs to get deeper position so he can bring out a turnaround bank shot

[3ball]

Personally I think LeBron needs to get deeper position so he can bring out a turnaround bank shot



:biggums: .. How can he do turnaround bank shots when he's a bad midrange shooter?


...NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)



.......................Midrange Efficiency .

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202
M Jordan. 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 43.2%.. 476/1101

Lebron.. 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 33.2%.. 183/551
Lebron.. 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.0%.. 217/602
Lebron.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.4%.. 242/630
Lebron.. 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 35.1%.. 204/581
Lebron.. 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.4%.. 185/508
Lebron.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%.. 96/259



Lebron's midrange percentage is below 40% for 10 of 13 seasons and his career 3-point percentage is only 31% in the playoffs.

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have sub-par 3-point and midrange efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had goat midrange efficiency, even better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.. MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism, with better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.. That's the goat

[Im Still Ballin]

Even in MJ's best midrange % year (48.9%), that still only equates to 0.978 Points Per Possession

For comparison; a 33% 3pt shot is worth 0.99 Points Per Possession

https://media.giphy.com/media/jyw5fzF2YybQc/giphy.gif

If we want to be more specific.. A jump hook bank shot

He needs to use those over the should close in post moves, which will take having to get inside and Biyombo out of the equation

[knicksman]

Yet it was derozans midrange game that carried them to 2 wins. But midrange is inefficient tho. Lol fcuking statnerds who dont know the game. Better to be ineficient than being scoreless

[3ball]

Even in MJ's best midrange % year (48.9%)


That isn't his best midrange year - we don't have the stats from his prime, when his efficiency was far greater than his 2nd three-peat years.





MJ shot 48.9% from midrange, which equates to 0.978 Points Per Possession

For comparison; a 33% 3pt shot is worth 0.99 Points Per Possession


Jordan's midrange fadeaway can be achieved at ANY time, particularly the clutch, and QUICKLY.

Otoh, a good 3-point look CAN'T be achieved at any time, particularly in the clutch, or QUICKLY.

Jordan's midrange was unexploitable and unpreventable, while a 3-point focus IS exploitable and very preventable.

There's a lot to unpack there, so you should re-read the above 3 sentences.





If we want to be more specific.. A jump hook bank shot


Ahhh yes... A much easier shot - that makes more sense for Lebron - there's no way you meant a jumpshot, since that ***** ain't got one..

I used to do jump-hook bank shots when I played center in junior high.. It's one of the first shots they teach you





He needs to use those over the should close in post moves, which will take having to get inside and Biyombo out of the equation


Even in the GIF you showed above, Lebron is playing BULLY BALL.

This means he isn't using a real move - he's just pounding the ball and backing his man down - that doesn't result in QUICK scores (see post #9 itt), chemistry, or a good brand of basketball.
.

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. 2 of the best mid range players to ever play basketball have won 5 and 6 rings, respectively.

Meanwhile, the more "efficient" player gets curbed stomped like a b1tch in the majority of finals he plays in.

:lol :lol

Wonder what style is more effective

[Im Still Ballin]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So Shaq didn't use any real moves?

Defenses are not restricted by Illegal defense today, so it's really hard to get deep low post position and get the ball when the defense just brings an extra man over to front the pass.. So to get that low post position, you are forced to catch the ball further out, and then use 5 seconds to back your post defender down

That being said, there are always creative ways to get low post position and fast possession, within the flow of the game. Cavs need to do some off-ball screens and try out the midpost for LeBron... Even try turning some of his drives into post ups to fool the defense

I fully expect him to come out in game 5 extremely physical, looking to send a message and win this game!

ALSO: He's baiting the defense to come over so he can pass to the open man.

PS: That was clearly a post move... a nice little turn baseline jump hook bank shot.. He needs to diversify his post arsenal.. Not just using the in and through move, which is effective... Needs an over the shoulder hook shot

[sportjames23]

Lol. 2 of the best mid range players to ever play basketball have won 5 and 6 rings, respectively.

Meanwhile, the more "efficient" player gets curbed stomped like a b1tch in the majority of finals he plays in.

:lol :lol

Wonder what style is more effective

:applause:

[plowking]

Lol. 2 of the best mid range players to ever play basketball have won 5 and 6 rings, respectively.

Meanwhile, the more "efficient" player gets curbed stomped like a b1tch in the majority of finals he plays in.

:lol :lol

Wonder what style is more effective

Go ahead and compare their teams over the course of their careers too.

Apparently there is only one way of winning. Bron winning 2 finals, and making as many as Jordan clearly means he is clueless in regards to knowing what it takes to win.

[golden24boy]

His team couldn't get him the ball actually. Bron passed it out when the double came, sat there waiting for the re-entry pass, and JR decided to dance with the ball and get his 3 pointer blocked. Same thing happened again but with Kyrie.

oh man stop with this reposting shiat!!!...if you want to repost you dont pass it across the court, but only to the nearest teammate!!!:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[NBAGOAT]

people here will always cite midrange guys who do well but what about guys who do poorly because they rely too much on the midrange shot. That's the biggest reason I hear people cite for guys like malone and kg's post season offensive decline, they're too reliant on the fadeaway and midrange. Hell even Bird has some bad shooting performances in the playoffs partially because he was so reliant on an outside shot.

[coin24]

Go ahead and compare their teams over the course of their careers too.

Apparently there is only one way of winning. Bron winning 2 finals, and making as many as Jordan clearly means he is clueless in regards to knowing what it takes to win.

2/6 suggests he doesnt know how to win at an efficient rate:oldlol:

You're as bad as pauk and lebron23 slurping the guy when he didn't show up..
Just making the finals isn't an achievement when you see the dog shit that is the east playoffs for the last 15 years

[34-24 Footwork]

Go ahead and compare their teams over the course of their careers too.

Apparently there is only one way of winning. Bron winning 2 finals, and making as many as Jordan clearly means he is clueless in regards to knowing what it takes to win.

Geesus. So you're serious? I thought you were joking. Lol. You guys are delusional as hell.

You're not winning the NBA finals with a SF who only takes layups/dunks to protect his fg percentage.

It aint happening. Deal with it.

[34-24 Footwork]

people here will always cite midrange guys who do well but what about guys who do poorly because they rely too much on the midrange shot. That's the biggest reason I hear people cite for guys like malone and kg's post season offensive decline, they're too reliant on the fadeaway and midrange. Hell even Bird has some bad shooting performances in the playoffs partially because he was so reliant on an outside shot.

Wtf?????

[Inferno]

How much time has 3ball spent typing up posts on ISH? Over or under 100 hours? :coleman:

[34-24 Footwork]

Lebron's athleticism sets his teammates up for open long range shot opportunities

The shooting of his perimeter players sets up Lebron for easy/cheesy layups.


Who do you think will have the better FG% after every game regardless of the Win or Loss column?

When his team can't make perimeter jumpers, Lebron-led teams are screwed because he's not going to risk his FG% for the sake of a win.

With this strategy, the box score will always make him look like he "did his part" and "made the correct basketball play" regardless of the outcome.

It's perfect.

[ImKobe]

Lol. 2 of the best mid range players to ever play basketball have won 5 and 6 rings, respectively.

Meanwhile, the more "efficient" player gets curbed stomped like a b1tch in the majority of finals he plays in.

:lol :lol

Wonder what style is more effective

BUT BUT Look at prime Lebron's FG% and PER!!

no one cares about the stats if you don't win, you can lose shooting 60% or you can lose shooting 45%, I don't care.

There's a reason why MJ and Kobe combine for 11 rings in 13 NBA Finals from 1991-2010. They could shoot the mid-range shot, they could post up just about anyone and score at an efficient rate, they could shoot the 3 when needed (Kobe more so but MJ had his moments). They could play team basketball when needed but were alpha enough to go and shoot the ball when the team play wasn't good enough. They both won titles shooting in the low 40s because their shooting efficiency wasn't the reason they won games.

[knicksman]

BUT BUT Look at prime Lebron's FG% and PER!!

no one cares about the stats if you don't win, you can lose shooting 60% or you can lose shooting 45%, I don't care.

There's a reason why MJ and Kobe combine for 11 rings in 13 NBA Finals from 1991-2010. They could shoot the mid-range shot, they could post up just about anyone and score at an efficient rate, they could shoot the 3 when needed (Kobe more so but MJ had his moments). They could play team basketball when needed but were alpha enough to go and shoot the ball when the team play wasn't good enough. They both won titles shooting in the low 40s because their shooting efficiency wasn't the reason they won games.



Effectiveness first before efficiency. Layups/dunks are more efficient than midrange but they are useless when the game tightens thus ineffective

[ImKobe]

Effectiveness first before efficiency. Layups/dunks are more efficient than midrange but they are useless when the game tightens thus ineffective

Obviously. What are you going to do when you can't get open layups against great teams? What are you going to do when your teammates can't get wide open 3s or convert them?

Lebron's team ball can be great but it's let him down more than it's benefited his legacy, he'd have at least 3 titles by now if he wasn't scared to shoot against the Mavs.

[Im Still Ballin]

Effectiveness vs. Efficiency?

:facepalm

Kobetards have hit a new low

[Im Still Ballin]

We've done this before

It was called Efficient vs. Dominant

[34-24 Footwork]

Effectiveness vs. Efficiency?

:facepalm

Kobetards have hit a new low

Lol @ a Lebron post fade away over Lowry being considered as a low IQ shot.

Tell us more

[Im Still Ballin]

Lol @ a Lebron post fade away over Lowry being considered as a low IQ shot.

Tell us more
It's low IQ because it's low efficiency

The midrange shot is the most inefficient in basketball, and you want to add a turnaround and fade to it? Lmao

Situationally it has its advantages, but it's still a low IQ shot, when BETTER shots can be found/created

For instance, backing Lowry deep and scoring on a jump hook bank shot is a much better high IQ shot.

[knicksman]

Effectiveness vs. Efficiency?

:facepalm

Kobetards have hit a new low


So when you practice your jumpshot, number of shots is more important than the form of your shot.:oldlol: bran stans. Theres a reason why you guys are 2/6 coz you dont know shit

[Im Still Ballin]

So when you practice your jumpshot, number of shots is more important than the form of your shot.:oldlol: bran stans. Theres a reason why you guys are 2/6 coz you dont know shit
:facepalm

[knicksman]

It's low IQ because it's low efficiency

The midrange shot is the most inefficient in basketball, and you want to add a turnaround and fade to it? Lmao

Situationally it has its advantages, but it's still a low IQ shot, when BETTER shots can be found/created

For instance, backing Lowry deep and scoring on a jump hook bank shot is a much better high IQ shot.


Lol same thinking as harden. Tell me wheres harden career heading right now bro. Looks like both of you have high IQs:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

It's low IQ because it's low efficiency

The midrange shot is the most inefficient in basketball, and you want to add a turnaround and fade to it? Lmao

Situationally it has its advantages, but it's still a low IQ shot, when BETTER shots can be found/created

For instance, backing Lowry deep and scoring on a jump hook bank shot is a much better high IQ shot.

I agree. It's low IQ because Lebron never practiced his post moves and footwork enough for it to be a good shot for him. Kobe and Jordan would take that all day and make it 9 times out of 10.

[aj1987]

I agree. It's low IQ because Lebron never practiced his post moves and footwork enough for it to be a good shot for him. Kobe and Jordan would take that all day and make it 9 times out of 10.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

If Kobe was posting up someone 6 inches shorter than him, you think he wouldn't get off a high percentage shot?

Kobe at age 34 led the league in post efficiency

[aj1987]

If Kobe was posting up someone 6 inches shorter than him, you think he wouldn't get off a high percentage shot?

Kobe at age 34 led the league in post efficiency
He's not making it 9/10 times.

[ImKobe]

He's not making it 9/10 times.

In that particular situation, he most likely would.

[Im Still Ballin]

I agree. It's low IQ because Lebron never practiced his post moves and footwork enough for it to be a good shot for him. Kobe and Jordan would take that all day and make it 9 times out of 10.
We need better definitions for what we are talking about here

The low IQ post fades I'm talking about are the types that Kobe used to take from 18ft... Not the one's you'd take closer in... I do admit Kobe used his shooting from the post in all sorts of varieties... He was great, along with Michael, going middle from the post and pulling up for a short jumper.. But he'd take dumb as hell ones, which for no reason should have been a post play if you're going to shoot from that far out

LeBron is a great post player. The numbers say so.

The problem I have with him in the post is he isn't decisive enough. He needs that turnaround bank jump hook shot as his go to move. He needs an over the shoulder deep post move, because he can't use the step through to the hoop each time... Biyombo is just sitting right behind the post defender now... LeBron usually opts in this instance to throw it to the open man (Usually in the weakside corner)... Admitted, the right play.

There is always an argument there about that. He's too in the middle sometimes. I think he should be more decisive and decide to score straight away... That way the defense will HAVE to commit either or. His results are still great, but in times like last night, I understand the Kobe mentality to FORCE defensive reaction when things aren't working. It's that switch of mentality that you could argue LeBron should have turned on last night. He's got it in him, just is a by the numbers player... And the results show for themselves.

[Im Still Ballin]

BTW LeBron led the league in post efficiency too 2014

He also was the 2nd best spot up shooter too one year (More efficient than Curry that year) 2013

LeBron is a curious athlete. Strange indeed

[Im Still Ballin]

POST-UP POWERS
Most efficient post-up players in 2013-14 season, according to Synergy (minimum 125 plays).

Player Plays Points FG% %FT Pts/play
LeBron James 261 283 55.9 21.8 1.08
Kevin Durant 207 221 47.8 20.8 1.07
Dirk Nowitzki 534 568 50.8 15.5 1.06
Dwyane Wade 145 153 53.7 17.2 1.06
Carmelo Anthony 420 427 49.4 16.7 1.02
Al Jefferson 840 813 51.0 11.0 0.97
Arron Afflalo 173 167 49.6 14.5 0.97
Blake Griffin 541 517 47.8 22.7 0.96
Joe Johnson 244 233 50.8 12.3 0.96
Brandon Bass 241 229 44.8 17.0 0.95

Most efficient spot-up players, 2012-13 regular season(Min. 100 plays)

Player Plays Points PPP
Jose Calderon 187 281 1.50
LeBron James 143 195 1.36
Kyle Korver 224 301 1.34
Steve Nash 114 153 1.32
Stephen Curry 226 294 1.30

[aj1987]

In that particular situation, he most likely would.
I'm not even hating on Kobe here. He'd probably make them 50% (10% over his usual) of the time, but 90%? Nope. '07 was Kobe's most efficient season and he didn't even make 90% of his dunks.

[AirFederer]

If Kobe was posting up someone 6 inches shorter than him, you think he wouldn't get off a high percentage shot?

Kobe at age 34 led the league in post efficiency

That says a lot about how ineffective he was from anywhere else :cheers:

[Optimus Prime]

Lol. 2 of the best mid range players to ever play basketball have won 5 and 6 rings, respectively.

Meanwhile, the more "efficient" player gets curbed stomped like a b1tch in the majority of finals he plays in.

:lol :lol

Wonder what style is more effective

:bowdown:

LeStans, advanced stats dorks and analytics kids all taking the big L.

Here's some basic and easy to understand stats.

6/6 >>>>>> 2/6
5/7 >>> 2/6

:kobe:

[aj1987]

:bowdown:

Chokebe stans, advanced stats dorks and analytics kids all taking the big L.

Here's some basic and easy to understand stats.

4/13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1/20
2/6 >>>>>> 2/7

:kobe:
FTFY, lap. :cheers:

[Disaprine]

shaq like dominance doe.

[FKAri]

:bowdown:

LeStans, advanced stats dorks and analytics kids all taking the big L.

Here's some basic and easy to understand stats.

6/6 >>>>>> 2/6
5/7 >>> 2/6

:kobe:
On a side note, analytics runs the world bro. Which gas station are you working at?

[jlip]

I feel that the thread title is erroneous.

It's not that he couldn't take advantage of Lowry, it's that he didn't try. Much the way we seen him do on a multifarious of occasions in the past, Lebron simply deferred...

^This.^

He was destroying 6'8" Demarre Carrol in the post just last week, but now all of a sudden he can't take advantage of 6'0" Lowry a week later. :facepalm

[sd3035]

Lebald getting locked down by Lowry :roll:

[ImKobe]

That says a lot about how ineffective he was from anywhere else :cheers:

But he wasn't :biggums: