Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to PROVE it

[poeticism707]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 4
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, both are even with 4 titles, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

[West-Side]

Yeah, and Garnett is better then Olajuwon.

[Wuxia]

give it up dude.

[L.Kizzle]

Does Duncan = Shaq yet? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40468)

28 Pages, 415 replies woth of Shaq/Duncan debate.

[poeticism707]

Yeah, and Garnett is better then Olajuwon.

Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq and Olajuwaon, unless KG wins 3 titles soon, he isn't in the Equation.

[TheHonestTruth]

Duncan >>>>> Shaq but Olajuwon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KG.

[D]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Horrible argument. Too many holes in it

[SsKSpurs21]

i love this guy! preach on brother, preach on. :oldlol:

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[poeticism707]

i love this guy! preach on brother, preach on. :oldlol:

:cheers:

[ronron15]

shaq was once the most dominant player on the planet....

[TDMVPDPOY]

i love this guy! preach on brother, preach on. :oldlol:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4853/chloroformzh0.gif

td label man ftw

[L.Kizzle]

There is a thread on the same page discussing the very same thing.

Does Duncan = Shaq yet? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40468)

[poeticism707]

shaq was once the most dominant player on the planet....

LOOK at the numbers BEFORE you quote ESPN one liners! By the way, Tim Duncan leads Shaq in mvps 2-1, even in finals mvps. Where's the dominance?

[D]

Like?
Like? Your just not very intelligent. 1st of all Don would like to say Duncan is close to Shaq, but not above him. And he definately isn't above Shaq because of the reasons you mentioned.


Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow!

Your main argument is how Duncan has all these awards over Shaq. But you are forgetting that on All-NBA Selections and All-Defensive Selections, 2 Fowards are chosen, and 1 Center is chosen. So it is easier for Duncan to get into All-NBA 1st than Shaq. How many All-Defensive 1st Selections would Duncan have if he was a C with Dikembe, Ben Wallace, Hakeem, Alonzo being the guys usually at the top. Tell Don how many All-Defensive 1st Selections Duncan would have if he was a C and had to go against DPOYs. Or if he would have as many All-NBA 1st if there was 1 Center spot and the Centers were loaded in the 90s with Robinson, Hakeem, and so on. Bottom line Duncan has 2 spots for an award spot, and Shaq has one.

Your award argument is just stupid. Don doesn't like stupid arguments

[poeticism707]

There is a thread on the same page discussing the very same thing.

Does Duncan = Shaq yet? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40468)

And? This is a new twist! State your case or get off because you don't have one!

[L.Kizzle]

And? This is a new twist! State your case or get off because you don't have one!
LOL at new twist, both threads discuss the same thing, Duncan or Shaq.

Shaquille O'Neal > Tim Duncan, not by much though.

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[0ne50]

She thinks your argument stinkshttp://www.petstainremoval.com/Stinky_Pet_Odor.bmp

[poeticism707]

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

[D]

You make a solid point, but you didn't address Shaq's defensive liabilities, hence 0 first team all defense, and only 3 2nd team! Duncan is better, plain and simple. His defensive prowess puts him over the top.
Once again, how many All-Defensive 1sts would Duncan have if he was Center like Shaq? Duncan would not have any over Ben Wallace since Ben Wallace has been DPOY all the time. Mutombo and Hakeem were also DPOYs. Shaq getting 2 All-Defensive teams against great defensive Centers is very impressive. Duncan might be the better defender, but the advantage isn't crazy great like the awards show

[RidonKs]

Should I post this here too? Meh, why not.

From the other thread...




titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
Advantage Shaq

finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
Ok, even.

season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
If you want to believe that Shaq doesn't deserve more MVP's, then that's your business. You'll be uhh, wrong though. Really wrong.

1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
First of all, Shaq has 8, not 9. Let's get our facts straight. However, that's irrelevant anyways.
Secondly, you do realize that Duncan has twice as much of a chance of being voted first team than Shaq does, right? Two forward spots, two center spots.
Makes a difference. A big one.

And thirdly, let's have a quick rundown of who both Duncan and Shaq had for competition for these first team selections, shall we?

Duncan Beat Out
98 - Grant Hill and Vin Baker
99 - Grant Hill and Chris Webber
00 - Grant Hill and Karl Malone
01 - Vince Carter and Kevin Garnett
02 - Chris Webber and Kevin Garnett
03 - Dirk Nowitzki and Chris Webber
04 - Jermaine O'Neal and Peja Stojakovic
05 - LeBron James and Kevin Garnett

Duncan Lost To
06 - LeBron James and Dirk Nowitzki

Shaq Beat out
98 - David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo
00 - Alonzo Mourning and David Robinson
01 - Dikembe Mutombo and David Robinson
02 - Dirk Nowitzki and Dikembe Mutombo
03 - Ben Wallace and Jermaine O'Neal
04 - Ben Wallace and Yao Ming
05 - Amare Stoudemire and Ben Wallace
06 - Ben Wallace and Yao Ming

Shaq Lost to
93 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson
94 - Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson
95 - David Robinson
96 - David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon
97 - Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing
99 - Alonzo Mourning

Notice a lot of recurring names in the guys who beat out Shaq. Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing. Three of the greatest centers ever. Shaq's better than two of them easily, but he wasn't back then. And with good reason, all three of those guys were amazing. Now check out who both of these guys beat out for their spots. Which list seems superior? And again, Shaq only had one spot to grab, Duncan had two. What if there were two center spots on the All-NBA team? Or perhaps only one forward spot? How would things change?

1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7
The previous argument can be brought up for this one as well. Only 1 center spot, compared to 2 forward spots. You won't hear an argument from me about Shaq being a superior defender to Duncan, but he was no slouch in that category. Arguably a better shot blocker/changer, his man defense (and a few other aspects) just wasn't on the same level as Duncan's.

Still though, when there are guys like Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Mourning and Ben Wallace competing for spots at Shaq's position throughout his career, what are the chances he beats out any of them for the first team? Hell, what are the chances that even Duncan beats out any of those guys for first team selections? Let me answer for you -- slim to none.

Compare...

Robinson
Hakeem
Dikembe
Mourning
Wallace
Ratliff
Camby

to

Prince
Kirilenko
Bowen
Artest
Cliff Robinson
PJ Brown
Pippen
Ratliff

Which list tends to stand out more? Defensively of course? My point point exactly.

Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
So now we get you yelling about 4 lousy points? Yeah, 4 points per game, big deal. Whatever, that's nothing. Two buckets, that's it.

Think about this. How many games do you see throughout the year that are decides by two baskets or less? Quite a few. Hell, just for fun, let's multiply it out. Shaq scores 328 more points than Duncan in one full season. He gets 164 more baskets. Sounds a little more meaningful, doesn't it? Duncan's played 10 years. Over the course of that time, on average, Shaq's scored a total of 3280 more points than Duncan. In a 10 year stretch. That's 1640 more baskets. Sound meaningful yet? Hmm?

4 points per game more? Yeah, that's worth quite a bit.

And in reality, it doesn't even matter what the statline says for their careers. I've already posted why Shaq is better than Duncan. It was a nice, detailed post, and SURPRISE... it didn't have any stats involved. "Wow, how can you like, compare players posting stats?" By WATCHING them of course. Something I suggest you start doing. Here it is...

Right now, Duncan is the best player in the NBA. He's a defensive anchor, and a solid man to man defender. He draws doubles in the post, and is a solid passer out of those doubles. He can hit both cutters and open shooters. He doesn't force things in the post. He's got a bunch of post moves. He controls the defensive glass.

Ok, great. He's awesome. Now, take all of that (minus the team defense) and multiply it by 2. Now you have Shaq. You want to talk about drawing double teams? Duncan can only dream of creating the havoc Shaq did during the championship runs. Teams actually created defenses designed to completely collapse on Shaq. and guess what? It still didn't work. Shaq's that dominant. Solid post moves, a nice array of jumphooks and jumpshots, amazing footwork, amazing passing out of the post. And to top all of that off, he's (perhaps) the most dominant player that's ever lived. He had more power than half the centers in the league today combined (and possibly still does). He rebounded well just like Duncan. Perhaps not to his full potential, but again, that's not what we're talking about.

All of these things lead to the fact that prime Shaq is better than prime Duncan. I could break down their careers as well, even with another chip and Finals MVP in Duncan's case, and Shaq would still probably have the edge.

And again, I can't stress this enough. It's an extremely tight race. Extremely tight. And yet, the winner is never in doubt. Only a fool would take Duncan in his prime over Shaq in his prime. Their careers are closer, but when comparing who's the better player, Shaq is the winner. Undoubtedly.
That sums up my thoughts quite nicely, once again.

He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash!
lol

Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points!
lol

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq!
I bolded the words that you use WAY too much.

[poeticism707]

I love how everyone is responding, but no one is addressing how Tim Duncan is so far ahead in defensive accomplishments, all nba, etc. Let's here some sound rhetoric!

[ronron15]

the achievements were close, it was too close to call...

but one thing u left out is greatness... shaq is just greater than duncan, his game demands other things that numbers dont show

[D]

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

:rolleyes:
Once again. Shaq is a Center. Duncan is a Foward. Fowards have 2 spots available for them every year on All-NBA teams, Centers have one. Giving Shaq the disadvantage since he had to go against Hakeem, Robinson on All-NBA Teams and Ben Wallace, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Alonzo on All-Defensive teams. Duncan would most likely have no more than 5 All-Defensive Team Selections if he was Center like Shaq

Your arguments are stupid like you

[poeticism707]

Great points, but it is still close. What puts Tim Duncan over the Top? Defensive accomplishments! Also, Tim Duncan has more season MVPs than Shaq, that's it! Just like Shaq has one more title.:no:

[poeticism707]

the achievements were close, it was too close to call...

but one thing u left out is greatness... shaq is just greater than duncan, his game demands other things that numbers dont show

Why don't you just plug ESPN into the keyboard, then ESPN can type for you?

[D]

Great points, but it is still close. What puts Tim Duncan over the Top? Defensive accomplishments! Also, Tim Duncan has more season MVPs than Shaq, that's it! Just like Shaq has one more title.:no:
:rolleyes:
Defensive Accomplshments? What defensive accomplishments? Does Duncan have a DPOY? Didn't think so. How many All-Defensive Teams would he have gotten if he was a Center? Answer that one

[ronron15]

I love how everyone is responding, but no one is addressing how Tim Duncan is so far ahead in defensive accomplishments, all nba, etc. Let's here some sound rhetoric!

duncan is a better defender overall, hes been to all defensive teams more than shaq...

shaq is greater tho, he was the mvp of a dynasty, he was the most dominant player on the planet, he was the reason for the "hack-a-(whoever)* tactic...

[Timmy D for MVP]

[QUOTE=D

[ronron15]

Why don't you just plug ESPN into the keyboard, then ESPN can type for you?

didnt get that haha

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[Timmy D for MVP]

duncan is a better defender overall, hes been to all defensive teams more than shaq...

shaq is greater tho, he was the mvp of a dynasty, he was the most dominant player on the planet, he was the reason for the "hack-a-(whoever)* tactic...

Well, yes but only because he couldn't shoot free throws.

And I remember something called the Jordan rules, but that's not nearly as catchy as hack-a-Shaq.

[rzp]

Poeticism i fell bad for u...u really got owned in this thread ...anyway u are still my ISH friend :cheers:

[RidonKs]

Once again, more excuses for Shaq! Would you like to tell me why Shaq only has one more title than Duncan if he's so much more dominant? Was it the refs? Did he stub his toe? Shaq has only the best coaching (Jackson and Riley), the best sidekicks (Hardaway, Kobe, and Wade), and great physical gifts. If he did not make more o it, he is to blame!!!
God, you're a moron.

And I remember something called the Jordan rules, but that's not nearly as catchy as hack-a-Shaq.
You serious?

The Jordan Rules >>> Hack-a-Shaq

I mean, one had a freaking book made about it. Although Shaq's might've as well, I'm not sure.

[poeticism707]

Poeticism i fell bad for u...u really got owned in this thread ...anyway u are still my ISH friend :cheers:
:D :cheers:

[D]

I would doubt that actually. I think that's a low number. What is shocking though is the fact that he's never won DPoY, which is BS.

And if he had to compete over Robinson he'd get on anyway since they played on the same team Robinson would have moved to the power, unless Duncan's coming off the bench which would make Pop look like an idiot, which he's not. Just saying.....
Main point is the difference between Shaq and Duncan's awards are not as great as the numbers show. Not even close. Duncan's numbers would be reduced greatly if he played Center like Shaq. Big difference if you go against Ben Wallace, Hakeem, Mutombo for All-Defensive teams.

[KIWI]

[QUOTE=D

[poeticism707]

Only 2 people have actually addressed the numbers!

[D]

Once again, more excuses for Shaq! Would you like to tell me why Shaq only has one more title than Duncan if he's so much more dominant? Was it the refs? Did he stub his toe? Shaq has only the best coaching (Jackson and Riley), the best sidekicks (Hardaway, Kobe, and Wade), and great physical gifts. If he did not make more o it, he is to blame!!!
Also remember it was 6 NBA Finals vs. Duncan's 3 NBA Finals. Quite a difference. Shaq also did it with 3 different teams, Duncan's NBA Finals have been with the same team and same coach. It takes dominance to take 3 completely different teams to the NBA Finals. And back in the 90s Jordan's Bulls stopped Shaq from winning more. Is there a team today that good to stop Duncan?

[poeticism707]

now i don't agree Duncan is better but hes very close!

just a question had shaq been a forward how many first team defensive honors would he have had:confusedshrug:

0 :eek:

[SsKSpurs21]

poeticism707 for president! :applause:

[Timmy D for MVP]

[QUOTE=D

[Borat]

poet is an idiot, and here is the thread to PROVE it

[D]

now i don't agree Duncan is better but hes very close!

just a question had shaq been a forward how many first team defensive honors would he have had:confusedshrug:
Like Don said from post 1, it is very close. But Shaq's dominance gives him the slight edge. Shaq isn't a foward. He is too big too be a foward and wouldn't guard fowards. But you can see Duncan being a Center. He is the right size.

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[Borat]

if you wanna talk numbers, have a look at some stats from the playoffs in shaq's dominant laker years

[D]

But then on the flip side, no one would doubt Tim Duncan if he was a stat whore, and tried to go for glory instead of accept his role. His numbers would be jaw dropping, but thankfully he is team oriented, and only wants to win. So, but I see what you're saying and it's very valid, very valid indeed.
Whats your point? Duncan wasn't a stat whore sure. But your acting like Shaq was. Duncan is great and is very close to Shaq, thats already a great thing

[KIWI]

poet is an idiot, and here is the thread to PROVE it

says the guy named Borathttp://emoticons4u.com/fingers/fing02.gif

[D]

But Shaq is only 4-6! I guess you forgot to mention that Don? I guess you also forgot That Shaq has been Swept 5 TIMES in the playoffs, most of any player in NBA history? What do you think of that Don?
That is Dirk vs Warriors times 5!!!
So what if Shaq has been swept 5 times. A loss is a loss. It doesn't matter if he lost in 7 or 4. The destination is the same, home.

[Kblaze8855]

What the hell is everyone doing here? There are a few things this guy does that makes it clear neither reality or the opinions of others really is a concern.

For one he said

:


According to their career numbers and stats

Which(almost) without exception is only said by wrong people.


Secondly he has bumped a topic probably a dozen times often minutes apart just for the sake of having more people see what he had to say. The vast majority of people who do that only do it because the people who read what they say just arent impressed enough to respond.


Third....anyone who is going to judge two guys whos game goes so far beyond numbers and present literally nothing related to what happens on a game to game on the court basis.....just doesnt get basketball.

Once you remove on court play from consideration and rely on award voting(often uneven due to position difference) and stats(never accurate in judging total impact) you clearly care more for being hard to call wrong than being accurate. Because nobody can argue a number. It is what it is. Gives people who dont want to look deeper a way to claim they know what is right and it cant be argued.

Post scoring and impact on defensive gamplanning can be argued. Man to man D can be argued. Passing, intimidation, and stepping up when it matters....they can be argued.

The results of a 10 yearold media poll cant.

So its pointed out over and over and over in an attempt to frame the argument in the way they wish. Because if you make the argument about numbers(as irrelevant as they may be) its a lot easier to say "Look im right!" without needing to know what youre talking about.

They are the arguments that go on forever because you cant really talk about the numbers/awards. You can talk about basketball. But these people dont want to talk basketball because talking basketball can make you look ignorant.

But everyone looks smart when all they talk about are things nobody can argue with.

Is this really new information? Am I really the only one to notice these people?

[Timmy D for MVP]

[QUOTE=D

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[Borat]

says the guy named Borathttp://emoticons4u.com/fingers/fing02.gif

hey fool, Borat is an alias that I use occasionally to mock the fools like you on the board.

[poeticism707]

What the hell is everyone doing here? There are a few things this guy does that makes it clear neither reality or the opinions of others really is a concern.

For one he said

:



Which(almost) without exception is only said by wrong people.


Secondly he has bumped a topic probably a dozen times often minutes apart just for the sake of having more people see what he had to say. The vast majority of people who do that only do it because the people who read what they say just arent impressed enough to respond.


Third....anyone who is going to judge two guys whos game goes so far beyond numbers and present literally nothing related to what happens on a game to game on the court basis.....just doesnt get basketball.

Once you remove on court play from consideration and rely on award voting(often uneven due to position difference) and stats(never accurate in judging total impact) you clearly care more for being hard to call wrong than being accurate. Because nobody can argue a number. It is what it is. Gives people who dont want to look deeper a way to claim they know what is right and it cant be argued.

Post scoring and impact on defensive gamplanning can be argued. Man to man D can be argued. Passing, intimidation, and stepping up when it matters....they can be argued.

The results of a 10 yearold media poll cant.

So its pointed out over and over and over in an attempt to frame the argument in the way they wish. Because if you make the argument about numbers(as irrelevant as they may be) its a lot easier to say "Look im right!" without needing to know what youre talking about.

They are the arguments that go on forever because you cant really talk about the numbers/awards. You can talk about basketball. But these people dont want to talk basketball because talking basketball can make you look ignorant.

But everyone looks smart when all they talk about are things nobody can argue with.

Is this really new information? Am I really the only one to notice these people?

That's because most people on ISH and in the world think Shaq is the Hulk, and mentally think Shaq has averaged 50 pts and 50 reb through his career. This just brings everyone back to earth, knowing Shaq has been stepped over in history by TD.

[D]

What the hell is everyone doing here? There are a few things this guy does that makes it clear neither reality or the opinions of others really is a concern.

For one he said

:



Which(almost) without exception is only said by wrong people.


Secondly he has bumped a topic probably a dozen times often minutes apart just for the sake of having more people see what he had to say. The vast majority of people who do that only do it because the people who read what they say just arent impressed enough to respond.


Third....anyone who is going to judge two guys whos game goes so far beyond numbers and present literally nothing related to what happens on a game to game on the court basis.....just doesnt get basketball.

Once you remove on court play from consideration and rely on award voting(often uneven due to position difference) and stats(never accurate in judging total impact) you clearly care more for being hard to call wrong than being accurate. Because nobody can argue a number. It is what it is. Gives people who dont want to look deeper a way to claim they know what is right and it cant be argued.

Post scoring and impact on defensive gamplanning can be argued. Man to man D can be argued. Passing, intimidation, and stepping up when it matters....they can be argued.

The results of a 10 yearold media poll cant.

So its pointed out over and over and over in an attempt to frame the argument in the way they wish. Because if you make the argument about numbers(as irrelevant as they may be) its a lot easier to say "Look im right!" without needing to know what youre talking about.

They are the arguments that go on forever because you cant really talk about the numbers/awards. You can talk about basketball. But these people dont want to talk basketball because talking basketball can make you look ignorant.

But everyone looks smart when all they talk about are things nobody can argue with.

Is this really new information? Am I really the only one to notice these people?

Numbers/Awards can be good when they are valid. This one isn't valid because there is a reason for it and that is that Shaq was a Center and Duncan was a Foward. So therefore, the awards aren't that valid but you can make adjustments. In many cases though, its ok to use awards as long as they are valid

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[D]

I thought he needed one more title and finals mvp, until I actually compared their careers. Then it was obvious that if Tim Duncan walked away right now in the middle of the playoffs, it wouldn't matter, because he already has passed Shaq.
Like Don said earlier, Don doesn't like stupidity. No one is agreeing with you, even the Spur fans. You want to know why? Because they understand the opposing argument and realize that it is stronger than your argument. You haven't understood yet. The awards advantage of Duncan should not be counted too much because Duncan is a F and Shaq is a C making it tougher for Shaq to get his awards. And since that was your main argument, your done. Shaq has more titles and more NBA Finals and that puts him above Duncan

[D]

Shaq makes excuses for himself and so does everyone else. According to most, he should have won the MVP 15 years and counting. Also, we're going to throw out awards, then we are only left with titles as the man. Even then, Tim Duncan is on the verge of passing Shaq.
According to most Shaq should've won 15 MVPs? Ok kid, your delusional. Show me the most that say that and you win this argument. Otherwise, you are just talking out of your @ss and don't know whats really going on

[Borat]

oh no.. a cartoon is giving me 'the bird'.

go shag a sheep thats wearing a Duncan mask

[poeticism707]

[QUOTE=D

[Timmy D for MVP]

oh no.. a cartoon is giving me 'the bird'.

go shag a sheep thats wearing a Duncan mask

:applause:

Wow, this thread has been to mountain top, and seen the promised land.

[D]

Please Don, don't speak of stupidity as though it were a vice and then subscribe to it. Shaq is not excused for his poor performance both in All NBA selections, as well All Defensive selections. The fact Shaq didn't perform well against his competition is evident. Of course his bickering with teammates, breaking up teams, poor conditioning, delaying surgery and missing chunks of the season, etc all contributed to his lack of dominance. Shaq gets the lion's share for winning, Shaq gets the lion's share for lack of dominance in winning and losing (as the numbers show). Maybe he could have accomplished mroe, but he has no one to blame but himself. Or would you penalize Duncan for Shaq's POTENTIAL, what he has not done? Once again, is stupidity at its ugliest.
:rolleyes:

So just say your whole argument in 1 line. Duncan is better than Shaq becaue hs is a PF and Shaq is a C. Because thats all you have. Your main argument is Duncan's got more awards and that is the reason why he has more awards. Because Duncan is a PF and Shaq is a C. Not because Duncan is actually a better defender or player, but because he plays PF and Shaq plays C, and you and I both know that is why Duncan has more awards.


So with your main argument really being Duncan is a PF and O'Neal is a C, Don would say your main argument is very stupid

Don is done with this thread

[El Kabong]

Is there a specific reason why all this Shaq VS Duncan talk started up? Or is it just a case people feel a need to compare everyone to everyone else.

[IBLEEDGREEN43]

shaq is a center.. duncans a forward

[L.Kizzle]

Is there a specific reason why all this Shaq VS Duncan talk started up? Or is it just a case people feel a need to compare everyone to everyone else.
Who's know ... I'm about to start a Shaq O'Neal vs Jermaine O'Neal thread just for the hell of it.

[KIWI]

hey fool, Borat is an alias that I use occasionally to mock the fools like you on the board.

:oldlol: im really scared honestly i don't care who you are!http://emoticons4u.com/fingers/fing23.gif

[El Kabong]

Who's know ... I'm about to start a Shaq O'Neal vs Jermaine O'Neal thread just for the hell of it.
Screw that, let's start a Mugsy Bogus VS Monute Bol thread.

[beau_boy04]

Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq and Olajuwaon, unless KG wins 3 titles soon, he isn't in the Equation.


I respectfully disagree

Olajuwon > Tim Duncan

other than that we :cheers:

[Timmy D for MVP]

shaq is a center.. duncans a forward

WOw, way to state an argument that has been repeated over, and over, and over, without adding anything new to it.

:applause:

[poeticism707]

Here is a very enlightening Tim Duncan article...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070509

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

haha, finally Tim Duncan has a annoying, biased, homer, dumbass fan that Kobe and Dirk has so many of on this board.

poetcism is to Duncan what Eliteballer/konex/oneway is to Kobe, PleezeBelieve is to Lebron, and Glove20 is to GP, and Howard5Nowitzki41 is to Dirk.

...also known as "fans".

[poeticism707]

...also known as "fans".

:applause:

[Solid Snake]

You don't need awards to tell you that Shaq OBVIOUSLY plays lazy defense. That's a weak ass argument talkin bout "well what if Duncan play this position, etc," you'd have to be an absolute idiot approaching Don levels if you can't tell that Duncan gives great defensive effort, while Shaq gives less.

It doesn't take a genious to see that, one simply has to be MINIMALLY OBSERVANT.

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

If Duncan wins 2 more championships and Shaq doesn't win another championship then I don't see the problem with Duncan>Shaq.

BTW We should never compare MVP's. Shaq should without a doubt have at least 3 MVP's.

[2LeTTeRS KD]

Duncan is a great, but you can't deny he's had a relatively easy path to the finals annd did so with very few lasting memories (besides his 3 that was trumped by the Lakers 3 years back). Not discounting his greatness but he never had the type of impact of Shaq, putting up his numbers quietly and while always contributing rarely having a real dominance. No matter how many titles or MVPs he puts up I will never be able to look at him as a better or greater player than Shaq.

[poeticism707]

:sleeping

[poeticism707]

:ohwell:

[ZHAKIDD532]

shaq was once the most dominant player on the planet....
exactly, Duncan never had that dominant mentality. Shaq is the all time better player. Duncan will sustain his production longer though I think, he's definitly in better shape. He can play and be productive until he's 40, Shaq is about 34 and he's on a big decline.

[Shep]

i've said it before, i'll say it again: no, tim duncan is not greater than shaq, but he will be if he leads his team to another championship.

for people arguing shaq should have more mvp's, you're right, but only one more for '01. duncan on the other hand has won 2 mvp's but should have 4

[funkylikemonkey]

The best part about both these players is that they have a trait that can't be described with numbers. They make whatever team they're on better and here you are, comparing them with numbers.

[Timmy D for MVP]

exactly, Duncan never had that dominant mentality. Shaq is the all time better player. Duncan will sustain his production longer though I think, he's definitly in better shape. He can play and be productive until he's 40, Shaq is about 34 and he's on a big decline.

So Duncan should go on to be greater than Shaq right? Because if he sustains this level of play throughout his entire career, then he should be considered greater right? Plus there's a chance he'd win more rings in that period because that is another 9 years.

[RidonKs]

I suppose it comes down to how you want to build an alltime list. With 'greater' players, or with 'better players'. I prefer listing the 'better players' because I think that's what matters the most. The way I might make an all-time list is to see the list of every player who has ever played in the NBA, and choose who I would want to start a team with, for one year. Who's that one guy I would choose over everyone else, to lead me to a championship, if they're all in their primes.

Here's an extreme example.

Player A
2 season played, 2 championships, 2 season MVP's, 2 Finals MVP, 1st team 2 times, 1st defensive team 2 times, 45/22/9/3/6 on 50%/80%

Player B
14 seasons played, 6 championships, 3 season MVPs, 5 Finals MVP's, 1st team 8 times, 1st defensive team 5 times, 24/12/3/1/3 on 48%/75%

So Player A is just ridiculously dominant, but only played two years, He was forced to stop for whatever reason (motorcycle accident we'll say), but during the time he played, there was simply no one better. He is easily the 'better' player.

Player B on the other hand, has virtually every major accomplishment you can think of, and he has them in spades. Stats kind of look like Duncan's, but they pale in comparison to that of Player A's stats. He's definitely the 'greater' player, thanks to his awards, but certainly worse than Player B on an individual level.

I'm probably in the majority here, but I'd have Player A ranked higher on my alltime list. Despite missing out on longevity, he was quite simply the more dominating player over the time he played, and I would easily want him on my team over Player B.

That's my thinking anyways, Perhaps it's slightly scewed, but it's just my opinion. Thus, despite Duncan racking up more and more hardware (if he does), I'll always say Shaq was better, simply because during the time when both were at their best, the reality was that he was the better player. And he'll remain that way, despite Duncan's trophy case being (and constantly getting) fuller.

[dejordan]

I suppose it comes down to how you want to build an alltime list. With 'greater' players, or with 'better players'. I prefer listing the 'better players' because I think that's what matters the most. The way I might make an all-time list is to see the list of every player who has ever played in the NBA, and choose who I would want to start a team with, for one year. Who's that one guy I would choose over everyone else, to lead me to a championship, if they're all in their primes.

Here's an extreme example.

Player A
2 season played, 2 championships, 2 season MVP's, 2 Finals MVP, 1st team 2 times, 1st defensive team 2 times, 45/22/9/3/6 on 50%/80%

Player B
14 seasons played, 6 championships, 3 season MVPs, 5 Finals MVP's, 1st team 8 times, 1st defensive team 5 times, 24/12/3/1/3 on 48%/75%

So Player A is just ridiculously dominant, but only played two years, He was forced to stop for whatever reason (motorcycle accident we'll say), but during the time he played, there was simply no one better. He is easily the 'better' player.

Player B on the other hand, has virtually every major accomplishment you can think of, and he has them in spades. Stats kind of look like Duncan's, but they pale in comparison to that of Player A's stats. He's definitely the 'greater' player, thanks to his awards, but certainly worse than Player B on an individual level.

I'm probably in the majority here, but I'd have Player A ranked higher on my alltime list. Despite missing out on longevity, he was quite simply the more dominating player over the time he played, and I would easily want him on my team over Player B.

That's my thinking anyways, Perhaps it's slightly scewed, but it's just my opinion. Thus, despite Duncan racking up more and more hardware (if he does), I'll always say Shaq was better, simply because during the time when both were at their best, the reality was that he was the better player. And he'll remain that way, despite Duncan's trophy case being (and constantly getting) fuller.
so, just out of curiosity, would you rank a guy like walton over ewing / robinson / etc because his mvp season was so outstanding (according to all the old-timers he was head and shoulders above the competition that year)?

[20 Dimes A Game]

You can't PROVE anything with numbers, read the thread that someone posted a bit ago and then come back and argue your case, you can't just go on numbers.

[RidonKs]

I didn't see Walton play at all, and I only saw Ewing and Robinson at the but end of their careers. I don't have the knowledge to make that call.

However, just looking at stats, Bill's MVP year was hardly what I'd call 'dominating'. 19/15/5/2? Meh. Even if he was considered the best player in the league at the time, that line isn't any better than Robinson's 30/11/5/2/3 line, or Ewing's 29/11/2/4 line from their best years. So no, Walton's probably not better. Not to mention the fact that (I think -- you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) the center position was much better during the years Robinson and Ewing put up their numbers than it was when Walton was having the year of his life.

If I had've seen them play, and saw Walton dominating to the extent that Hakeem or Shaq might've been doing it, then yeah, I'd probably have Walton much higher. I didn't though, and that's why I've never actually made my own all-time list. I don't have enough information.

[dejordan]

I didn't see Walton play at all, and I only saw Ewing and Robinson at the but end of their careers. I don't have the knowledge to make that call.

However, just looking at stats, Bill's MVP year was hardly what I'd call 'dominating'. 19/15/5/2? Meh. Even if he was considered the best player in the league at the time, that line isn't any better than Robinson's 30/11/5/2/3 line, or Ewing's 29/11/2/4 line from their best years. So no, Walton's probably not better. Not to mention the fact that (I think -- you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) the center position was much better during the years Robinson and Ewing put up their numbers than it was when Walton was having the year of his life.

If I had've seen them play, and saw Walton dominating to the extent that Hakeem or Shaq might've been doing it, then yeah, I'd probably have Walton much higher. I didn't though, and that's why I've never actually made my own all-time list. I don't have enough information.

i didn't see him either, so i'm in the same boat. he gets a ton of love from people i respect though. anyway, i don't have a problem with this manner of gauging players. i think it's a little dumb to rank a guy like carter behind someone like sam jones who, while he was one of the greatest sgs of his era, couldn't defend vince with a step ladder and a taser. on the other hand you have to give guys their due for what they've accomplished in their time.

[RidonKs]

That's why I think two lists are needed. With one list, you don't really even have to have seen all the players play, because you can just go by stats, awards (while checking out their competition -- as we've seen in this thread must be done), championships, etc. That would be a list for the 'greatest' players.

The list for the 'better players' would have to be made by guys who have actually watched these players play though, because theat's the only way to accurately gauge just how good these guys were individually. You look at Nash, you see numbers that don't really make you 'wow' like you would with other great players, you look at his teammates, who're definitely quite good, and should get credit for a lot of the wins with the Phoenix team, and you can easily come to the conclusion that he's not that good, and that he isn't worthy of any MVP's, let alone two. However, having watched him come into his own in Phoenix, I know that he's a tremendous player who does deserve his accolades.

Some things you just can't tell from stats and awards, regarding who was actually the better player between two guys, and that's why I think ranking two lists (better and greater) is just a more accurate way to do things.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Well there in lies the key, while one player may be better that donesn't make him greater. Because it's all about how you use your talent. Tim Duncan is a basketball genious, and he has the ability to put that basketball IQ to use. That's what makes him great.

[poeticism707]

Well there in lies the key, while one player may be better that donesn't make him greater. Because it's all about how you use your talent. Tim Duncan is a basketball genious, and he has the ability to put that basketball IQ to use. That's what makes him great.

:applause:

[poeticism707]

:banana:

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[2LeTTeRS KD]

exactly, Duncan never had that dominant mentality. Shaq is the all time better player. Duncan will sustain his production longer though I think, he's definitly in better shape. He can play and be productive until he's 40, Shaq is about 34 and he's on a big decline.

Duncan is already declining and is what? 30? 31? Shaq didn't start any kind of real decline until he was 32 or 33. I don't care about conditioning when you already can show a decline in level of play from Duncan.

[King Baron]

I don't know about Duncan declining. He always shared the ball not caring about stats and was hurt last year. He seems pretty good to me this year, I don't really see a major change.

[poeticism707]

:hammerhead:

[The Answer]

This thread is ridiculous. Shaq is clearly better than Duncan.

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[RidonKs]

For ****s sake, stop bumping this stupid thread.

Ban this fool. Please.

[KIWI]

For ****s sake, stop bumping this stupid thread.

Ban this fool. Please.

agree come on bro us spurs peeps are better then this

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[bleedinpurple]

i didn't go back and read every post. Did anyone talk about professionalism and leadership? cause Shaq was WEAK in both areas.

[poeticism707]

i didn't go back and read every post. Did anyone talk about professionalism and leadership? cause Shaq was WEAK in both areas.

:applause:

[poeticism707]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

[bleedinpurple]

don't get me wrong, I respect Shaq, but I always thought he should play harder at the defensive end. Interesting that he was NEVER All-D. Reminds me of when he said, "If you don't feed the Big Dog, the Big Dog don't play D"

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[poeticism707]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

[dejordan]

shaq's career average in points, despite the fact that his numbers have slipped dramatically as he's gotten older, is still higher than duncan's best season average. that means that the best duncan ever managed to do as an offensive weapon was an average season for shaq.

and that pretty much sums them up. duncan's been basically the same high level plateau player since he came into the league. shaq has had a definite peak and definite valleys. shaq's peak towered over duncan's consistant line. shaq's valley's plummet below duncan's consistant line, but overall he still has better numbers, more titles, a better head to head record, and a better head to head average. explain to me again how it's a cut and dry argument for duncan and anyone who believes otherwise is being duped.

your whole argument seems to hinge on awards that have been handed to duncan and the fact that duncan gets to make defensive teams and all-nba teams as a 4 instead of a five. if he had to compete against ben wallace, dikembe mutumbo, and alonzo mourning at the 5 spot (as he would if he'd been drafted by a team that didn't feature one of the ten best centers ever), his all-d teams would shrink. if he had to beat out shaq to make the all-nba 1st team, those would shrink too.

i'm not saying it's definitively shaq over duncan, just that your pro-duncan agenda is clouding your argument and causing you to skew all of your facts in duncan's favor and ignore things like duncan's best scoring season being 5 points lower than shaq's. shaq's peak blocks were better. his top rebounds were better. aren't those the stats that measure a big man? so shaq had better stats and won more... again, i fail to see duncan's insurmountable argument.

and just so you know, i'm not a shaq fan. i haven't liked shaq since he ditched an orlando team that was set to become a dynasty in order to make kazaam.

[bleedinpurple]

^ hurts my eyes to look at that post.

[zebraheat]

Ridonks posted that Duncan had the advantage of playing when the small forward postion was so weak that two PF would make it into the First team.

Now, if we were really only allowed to choose one PF for the First Team, that would make things interesting, I believe it would show that Garnett would be All D first team, Duncan 2nd team.

Also align that with the All NBA selections, and suddenly poets argument is in tatters.

That being said, its common knowledge that Shaq has Legend status, Duncan as great as he is, doesn't hold that greatness status, hard to explain, but its there.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Ridonks posted that Duncan had the advantage of playing when the small forward postion was so weak that two PF would make it into the First team.

Now, if we were really only allowed to choose one PF for the First Team, that would make things interesting, I believe it would show that Garnett would be All D first team, Duncan 2nd team.

Also align that with the All NBA selections, and suddenly poets argument is in tatters.

That being said, its common knowledge that Shaq has Legend status, Duncan as great as he is, doesn't hold that greatness status, hard to explain, but its there.

Wow this thread came back to life!

First I think Timmy would still get All-Defensive first honors, for the same reason Dirk won MVP. Also, Duncan's legend status is actually there because he is widley considered the best PF to ever play the game, which means that he'll be the measuring stick for years to come.

[Timmy D for MVP]

^ hurts my eyes to look at that post.

Yeah dude seriously, dejordan would it hurt to use the enter key every onece in a while?

[geeWiz15]

no, tim duncan is not greater than shaq, but he will be if he leads his team to another championship.
that is perhaps the dumbest statement I've ever seen.

[vert48]

so, just out of curiosity, would you rank a guy like walton over ewing / robinson / etc because his mvp season was so outstanding (according to all the old-timers he was head and shoulders above the competition that year)?
I rank Walton over Ewing because he was better. Period.

[dejordan]

Yeah dude seriously, dejordan would it hurt to use the enter key every onece in a while?
i didn't know what he was talking about. i'll edit so nobody needs an aspirin. :D

[Timmy D for MVP]

i didn't know what he was talking about. i'll edit so nobody needs an aspirin. :D

:applause:

Much better man, way easier to read.

[SsKSpurs21]

something cool and enjoyable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUHBOMGbS-4&mode=related&search=

[Timmy D for MVP]

Okay I didn't want to quote dejordan, because he likes to write novels, but I will say this, a re-occuring theme in that argument is the Shaq's peak numbers out shine Duncan's. And that's true, but Duncan's consitency is part of what makes him great. I mean he has what? Like 8-9 years left in him (barring serious injury I really think he can go that long). Imagine if he stays pretty consistent which he can do I believe. The fact that ever since he arrived, SAS has been in title contention speaks volumes about what this man can do.

[dejordan]

Okay I didn't want to quote dejordan, because he likes to write novels, but I will say this, a re-occuring theme in that argument is the Shaq's peak numbers out shine Duncan's. And that's true, but Duncan's consitency is part of what makes him great. I mean he has what? Like 8-9 years left in him (barring serious injury I really think he can go that long). Imagine if he stays pretty consistent which he can do I believe. The fact that ever since he arrived, SAS has been in title contention speaks volumes about what this man can do.
i think that's a good point. i also think you can argue that duncan never gets benched at the end of games because you can take him away from the rim and let him hit clutch js instead of worrying about him at the line. duncan has an argument. i just thought the thread starter was ignoring shaq's argument and it needed to be stated again. defensive versatility, clutch performance, and consistancy vs. total stats & total titles. definitely debatable imo, though for those of you who remember shaq circa 2001, the images of him annihilating dikembe in the finals are pretty hard to shake.

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[TDMVPDPOY]

one thing alot of ppl seem to forget is, duncan is not about numbers and padding the scoresheet, he does enough ftw and shares the load with the supporting cast.

actually a better argument would take MPG into consideration and adjusted.

[beau_boy04]

it looks like Tim Duncan is on his way to get his 4th title :bowdown:

[Dhoopster]

Tim's a little low profile, but he's definitely better than Shaq!


________________
Kareem
Ford Mustang 07 by Ford Motor Company USA (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/ford-motor-company-usa-780/ford-mustang-07-5250.html)

[beau_boy04]

Terrific game by Tim Duncan today against the Suns. He did just enough to get the victory. All those blocked shots and the way he started the 3rd quarter to ignate the later comeback. :cheers:

[rzp]

Terrific game by Tim Duncan today against the Suns. He did just enough to get the victory. All those blocked shots and the way he started the 3rd quarter to ignate the later comeback. :cheers:

Horry did just enough to get the victory...

homer

[Soundwave]

Duncan is more low key, but Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.

[rzp]

Tim's a little low profile, but he's definitely better than Shaq!


________________
Kareem
Ford Mustang 07 by Ford Motor Company USA (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/ford-motor-company-usa-780/ford-mustang-07-5250.html)

are u Poeticism707? :oldlol:

[poeticism707]

are u Poeticism707? :oldlol:

Well if it isn't my old pal RZP!!!

:cheers:

[Force]

Duncan is more low key, but Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.

Yeah. very short memories. People need to go back and watch a game from Shaqs prime, also consider what he did before the league changed the rules where you can use "illegal defense" It was completely unfair those days. I think Duncan will probably end up with more rings but as far as what they did in the game, Shaq was just flat out better...a straight wrecking ball. The best thing about these two is that when it comes to the way they perform on the court, they do what is best for the team...which usually means the ball starts with touching the ball inside...

[Rockets(T-mac)]

you have to remember that shaq numbers are decreasing and that is effecting his career #s Duncan hasnt started to do that yet so wait Duncan is 35 and his #s decrease badly and than lets compare careers

[Laker4Lyfe]

Duncan is more low key, but Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.


Well I wont comment on who is better because that's basically left up to individual perceptions. However I do feel regarding Shaq that people always say "he is the most dominant" etc... but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.

You guys can say he's better than Duncan and that stats dont matter or whatever, but none of you can honestly say that with Shaq size and strength he should have done a heck of a lot more than he has.

Also, a question for those of you who say the difference is Shaq is a center and Duncan is a forward. If Shaq was the most dominant ever as claimed why is it that he wasnt able to make first all defensive team or any of those other things listed? He's the MOST DOMINATE EVER so what difference does it make that he plays center and Duncan plays forward? He should have DOMINATED the position of center correct? :confusedshrug:

Just my thoughts

[Batchoy]

but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.Then Mark Eaton, George Muressan, Pavel Podkozin should have been all-stars because they will be the biggest players when they were on the court. For that matter, any of the WWE wrestlers over 6'10" could dominate the NBA. The Big Show would be the GOAT then at over 7' 0" and 450 lbs. :banghead:

Don't try to downplay Shaq's talent just because don't like him. It takes more than just size and strength to make a great big man in basketball.







but none of you can honestly say that with Shaq size and strength he should have done a heck of a lot more than he has.Shaq probably could have done more with what he has, but don't you think 4 NBA Championships, 1 regular season MVP (should have been at least 3), 3 Finals MVP, and 2 Scoring Title's ain't that bad for an "overweight/lazy" player.






Also, a question for those of you who say the difference is Shaq is a center and Duncan is a forward. If Shaq was the most dominant ever as claimed why is it that he wasnt able to make first all defensive team or any of those other things listed?Let's see. There is only one choice for Center on the all-defensive team, while there are 2 choices for forwards. That gives Duncan twice the chance as Shaq. And I don't think Duncan would have been on all those 1st team all-defense teams as a center with Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, David Robinson, and Olajuwon as your competitors. And the term "Most Dominant Ever" was mainly about how Shaq could not be stopped on the offensive end. That didn't mean Shaq was a slouch on defense. As a Laker fan, you should have seen Shaq at his prime (1999-2003) when opposing players would think twice before they drove in the lane. Again, I know it hurts that Shaq won a Championship after leaving The Lakers, but the truth sometimes hurts.









He's the MOST DOMINATE EVER so what difference does it make that he plays center and Duncan plays forward? He should have DOMINATED the position of center correct?And he did. The only center that could compete with Shaq during his time was Olajuwon and this was before Shaq's prime. And it was during Shaq's prime that no one could compete with him.

[rzp]

Well if it isn't my old pal RZP!!!

:cheers:

:cheers:

[Laker4Lyfe]

Again, I know it hurts that Shaq won a Championship after leaving The Lakers, but the truth sometimes hurts.




Why would I be hurt? This was just a stupid thing to say. Anyway you have your opinion and I have mine, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And by the way, I felt the same way about Shaq when he WAS a Laker. I can't tell you the countless arguments I have got into with people here in LA regarding Shaq, ESPECIALLY when the Lakers where winning.

So never assume you know what a persons motives are.:no: You know what they say about that word anyway.

[Force]

Well I wont comment on who is better because that's basically left up to individual perceptions. However I do feel regarding Shaq that people always say "he is the most dominant" etc... but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.

You're an idiot. Shaq dominance wasn't just based on his size. Whats amazing is what he was able to do at his size. Look at his amazing footwork. It might be 20 years until we see a guy who is 350 pounds who has quick footwork like that. Also, how often do you see a guy that big who can get the ball and just go up and score right away??? Take a look at guys like Mutombo, Zo, Big Z, basically, pick 99% of any center you want from the history of the league. Now think about slow they are when it comes to gathering up the ball and then going up for a dunk or lay up, plus they were all much lighter than Shaq. Plus Shaq did this at 350 pounds!!! I used to always cringe when I saw centers get the ball under the rim, and then take what felt like 2 seconds just to secure the ball and bend their knees to get ready to jump. Just because you're big it doesn't mean you should kill everyone. He's an anomaly. He really is. A guy that size who can get the ball, take a jumpstop and go up and bang it whoever is in front of him...nobody has ever been able to do that the same way. There is a reason why Shaq has gotten doubled teamed more than any other big man in the history of the league.

[poeticism707]

You're an idiot. Shaq dominance wasn't just based on his size. Whats amazing is what he was able to do at his size. Look at his amazing footwork. It might be 20 years until we see a guy who is 350 pounds who has quick footwork like that. Also, how often do you see a guy that big who can get the ball and just go up and score right away??? Take a look at guys like Mutombo, Zo, Big Z, basically, pick 99% of any center you want from the history of the league. Now think about slow they are when it comes to gathering up the ball and then going up for a dunk or lay up, plus they were all much lighter than Shaq. Plus Shaq did this at 350 pounds!!! I used to always cringe when I saw centers get the ball under the rim, and then take what felt like 2 seconds just to secure the ball and bend their knees to get ready to jump. Just because you're big it doesn't mean you should kill everyone. He's an anomaly. He really is. A guy that size who can get the ball, take a jumpstop and go up and bang it whoever is in front of him...nobody has ever been able to do that the same way. There is a reason why Shaq has gotten doubled teamed more than any other big man in the history of the league.

Dominant or no, his career numbers and accomplishments don't lie, and Tim Duncan has had easily had the better career (see page 1 of this thread for comparisons). Also, don't use unprovable, subjective jargon like "Shaq has gotten double teamed more than...in the history of the league." It's too subjective, and destroys your credibility.

[Lebron23]

[QUOTE=D

[Cannonball]

[QUOTE=D

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[skillswithaz]

:pimp:
I like how you're ignoring Don's post where he owned you...

[yobore]

Shaq was better in his prime but Duncan may still end up having the better career. Normally I give it to the guy with the best prime, like Isiah over Stockton, but since both these guys are proven champions have been the best in the league, if Duncan does it for longer and wins more rings I gotta give the better career title to him. It'll take a couple more great seasons though.

[beau_boy04]

Duncan not winning a single DPOY award in his career yet is a huge travesty.

Spurs defensive rankings
97-98: 2nd
98-99: 1st
99-00: 1st
00-01: 1st
01-02: 1st
02-03: 3rd
03-04: 1st
04-05: 1st
05-06: 1st
06-07: 2nd

Over that span, only two players have averaged more defensive rpg, and only four players have averaged more bpg.

Duncan should have multiple DPOY awards by now. It's a shame the best defensive player of his generation by far may never have a DPOY to show for it. In fact, he's only twice finished as high as 3rd in DPOY voting.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Duncan not winning a single DPOY award in his career yet is a huge travesty.

Spurs defensive rankings
97-98: 2nd
98-99: 1st
99-00: 1st
00-01: 1st
01-02: 1st
02-03: 3rd
03-04: 1st
04-05: 1st
05-06: 1st
06-07: 2nd

Over that span, only two players have averaged more defensive rpg, and only four players have averaged more bpg.

Duncan should have multiple DPOY awards by now. It's a shame the best defensive player of his generation by far may never have a DPOY to show for it. In fact, he's only twice finished as high as 3rd in DPOY voting.

Are you basing it off of PPG? Or a combination of stats. Cause I believe we actually ended this year 1st in points allowed. Not sure though.

[dejordan]

^^

i think having bowen on his team steals potential voters from him and vice versa. i don't think it's right, but i do think that's the case. the credit gets spread between them.

[Timmy D for MVP]

^^

i think having bowen on his team steals potential voters from him and vice versa. i don't think it's right, but i do think that's the case. the credit gets spread between them.

Which is kinda stupid, because the only reason Bruce Bowen can be so aggressive is because he knows Timmy will be there to help him if he messes up. Tim creates jump shots for Bowen to defend because people just really don't want to take it inside on him.

[dejordan]

Which is kinda stupid, because the only reason Bruce Bowen can be so aggressive is because he knows Timmy will be there to help him if he messes up. Tim creates jump shots for Bowen to defend because people just really don't want to take it inside on him.
completely agree. bruce is able to body up like crazy because it barely matters if he gets beat off the dribble.

[poeticism707]

:sleeping

[poeticism707]

As to Don's misguided attempt to explain away Tim Duncan's many more first team all nba and first team all defense selection, consider the following. Just because TD had 2 opportunities (forward) to Shaq's 1 on first team all nba (the center), doesn't mean Shaq was robbed or TD benefited at all. Consider, since TD has been in the league 10 years, with 9 first team all nba selections. When in that time has he EVER utilized the "2nd" forward position, meaning another forward was ranked ahead of him? Only once, and most and arguably twice: last year injured with plantarfaciatius in his foot (2nd team all nba, ONLY year he's missed it), and very arguably the year KG won MVP (2004, hence making TD the "second forward" in the NBA, if he were Shaq at center he wouldn't have made it). Even with these two exceptions, and one being very arguable, Tim Duncan would still lead Shaq in first team all nba 8-7, and that's in 5 less years.

Also, we don't even need to discuss First Team All Defense, where Tim Duncan destroys Shaq 7-0, and Shaq has a pathetic 3 CAREER 2nd team all defense. Shaq is so bad defensively, he would never have made the first team even at forward either. Examining their careers comparatively, there can be only one conclusion: Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to prove it! (TD is on the verge of winning another title and finals mvp this year, which will be icing on the cake.):cheers:

[ZHAKIDD532]

Duncan'll have the same amount of rings after this year. I think Shaq will still always be better.

[AtTheDriveIn]

Stop bringing this **** back up poeticism. It's dead. No one wants to argue with you, and no one cares how you use emotions ever second posts because you have nothing else to say.

[poeticism707]

Stop bringing this **** back up poeticism. It's dead. No one wants to argue with you, and no one cares how you use emotions ever second posts because you have nothing else to say.

Please review my posts on the previous page alone. I basically submitted a doctoral thesis, and you respond with 3 sentences and four asterisks, criticizing me for emoticons. If you cannot see the stupidity in this, please do not bother to respond, nor darken the logic of this post with your low intellect. :violin:

[mhg88]

As to Don's misguided attempt to explain away Tim Duncan's many more first team all nba and first team all defense selection, consider the following. Just because TD had 2 opportunities (forward) to Shaq's 1 on first team all nba (the center), doesn't mean Shaq was robbed or TD benefited at all. Consider, since TD has been in the league 10 years, with 9 first team all nba selections. When in that time has he EVER utilized the "2nd" forward position, meaning another forward was ranked ahead of him? Only once, and most and arguably twice: last year injured with plantarfaciatius in his foot (2nd team all nba, ONLY year he's missed it), and very arguably the year KG won MVP (2004, hence making TD the "second forward" in the NBA, if he were Shaq at center he wouldn't have made it). Even with these two exceptions, and one being very arguable, Tim Duncan would still lead Shaq in first team all nba 8-7, and that's in 5 less years.

Also, we don't even need to discuss First Team All Defense, where Tim Duncan destroys Shaq 7-0, and Shaq has a pathetic 3 CAREER 2nd team all defense. Shaq is so bad defensively, he would never have made the first team even at forward either. Examining their careers comparatively, there can be only one conclusion: Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to prove it! (TD is on the verge of winning another title and finals mvp this year, which will be icing on the cake.):cheers:

That's not icing...that's the product of you getting a little too excited about Tim Duncan.

[AtTheDriveIn]

Please review my posts on the previous page alone. I basically submitted a doctoral thesis, and you respond with 3 sentences and four asterisks, criticizing me for emoticons. If you cannot see the stupidity in this, please do not bother to respond, nor darken the logic of this post with your low intellect. :violin:

Ok fine, I understand that you've done a superb job of arguing this, but if everyone else is over it, why aren't you?

You have no further arguments, that's why you put emotions there instead. There's nothing more to argue, you'd just be going around in circles over and over again.

[poeticism707]

Ok fine, I understand that you've done a superb job of arguing this, but if everyone else is over it, why aren't you?

You have no further arguments, that's why you put emotions there instead. There's nothing more to argue, you'd just be going around in circles over and over again.

Now this fair criticism!:cheers:

However, there might much more to add, and very soon: another title for Tim Duncan, and another Finals MVP.

[BlackMoses]

To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds

[rzp]

To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds

wrong...Shaq is a very consistent player...check his stats ...like 10 years 25+/10+...Shaq did not played only is his title runs :no: (u have a short memory or u are a kid like poeticism)...Shaq just didnt played in very consistent teams like TD

[BlackMoses]

wrong...Shaq is a very consistent player...check his stats ...like 10 years 25+/10+...Shaq did not played only is his title runs :no: (u have a short memory or u are a kid like poeticism)...Shaq just didnt played in very consistent teams like TD

Barry was a consistently great player too. What I'm trying to say is that Shaq has the far superior prime compared to Duncan. While both players are great overall.

[GOBB]

To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds


Hank Aaron? :roll: Barry Bonds is better than Hank Aaron...not even a debate. Barry Bonds is this generations best baseball player and has an argument for GOAT. Horrible example...try using another sport because you dont know where Hank Aaron is ranked in terms of greatness. Damn sure aint on Bonds level.

[IBLEEDGREEN43]

Hank Aaron? :roll: Barry Bonds is better than Hank Aaron...not even a debate. Barry Bonds is this generations best baseball player and has an argument for GOAT. Horrible example...try using another sport because you dont know where Hank Aaron is ranked in terms of greatness. Damn sure aint on Bonds level.

i totally agree with you on this.. bonds is on another level...

alot of people dont want to watch him break the record, or dont care.. you literally have to be in denial of sports history to not want to see him break the record.. its ridiculous

[GOBB]

:applause:

You're clapping hands unaware Barry Bonds is a better baseball player than Hank Aaron. It totally contradicts your support about Duncan being greater than Shaq. :roll:

[EricForman]

poetis.... until Duncan wins a ring this June, he ISN'T above Shaq yet... so stop bumping this stupid thread.

Even after Duncan gets his 4th in June, it's still debatable between Shaq and Duncan, but why am I explaining to you, you feel Duncan will be "inarguably top five all time" after June...

[Timmy D for MVP]

You're clapping hands unaware Barry Bonds is a better baseball player than Hank Aaron. It totally contradicts your support about Duncan being greater than Shaq. :roll:

Umm, wewll I never thought hammerin hank was the best, but when the only thing kepping 99% sure from turining into 100% sure on the steriods issue is a test for HGH, There can be much debate.

[Dizzle-2k7]

why is 5 years of dominance more valuable then an entire career of dominance?

also, td has never had any problems like shaq has. shaqs had people traded,coaches fired, etc.

[RoseCity07]

DUncan won his first champion ship in a lock out year right? Shaq was unstoppable, Duncan is stoppable.

Duncan is really good, but no where near Shaqs level.

That's like comparing Kobe to the Jordan that played for the Wizards. If Shaq were at the same point in his career as Duncan this thread wouldn't exist.

[EricForman]

why is 5 years of dominance more valuable then an entire career of dominance?

also, td has never had any problems like shaq has. shaqs had people traded,coaches fired, etc.

Why do the two Duncan supporters on this thread try to bend reailty? Why do they act like Shaq was only "elite" for a 3, 4 year stretch and the rest of his career wasn't great?

Shaq from 94 to 99, 2004 to 2005 was still pretty damn good. I dunno why you guys keep throwing that "why does Shaq's three good years put him ahead of Duncan's entire consistent career?"

[gaydad]

shaq was once the most dominant player on the planet....for a couple of years at best (the first 2 Lakers titles), and I'm not even sure of that, as Duncan was certainly the better player. But Shaq had Kobe playing second fiddle

[poeticism707]

poetis.... until Duncan wins a ring this June, he ISN'T above Shaq yet... so stop bumping this stupid thread.

Even after Duncan gets his 4th in June, it's still debatable between Shaq and Duncan, but why am I explaining to you, you feel Duncan will be "inarguably top five all time" after June...

Of course, I don't know if Tim Duncan will win another title and finals MVP this June, anything can happen (injury, for instance). But if he does, with equaling Shaq in titles at 4-4, besting him in finals MVPs at 4-3, with the superior body of work he has compared to Shaq (see page 1 of this thread), if there is even a hint of objectivity in you, then it would be clear Tim Duncan has surpassed Shaq. Again, based on their respective bodies of work, its not debatable. Shaq is a great player, but for 2 big men playing in the same era, this comparison is an easy one. Also, when I spoke of Tim Duncan being inarguably top 5 upon his next title, I meant top 5 big men (already passed Hakeem, just passing Shaq), but INARGUABLY top ten all time.

[GOBB]

Umm, wewll I never thought hammerin hank was the best, but when the only thing kepping 99% sure from turining into 100% sure on the steriods issue is a test for HGH, There can be much debate.

Ok now in English. There is no argument for Hank over Bonds unless you're a Bonds ***** and one who has ignored MLB the last 10-12 years. And will continue to do so because you are suspicious of everyone.

[ForceOfNature]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Personally, I agree with you. Duncan is a little better than Shaq historically.

[Psileas]

What Duncan fans have not mentioned is:

Duncan: Top-10 in scoring 5 times, in rebounding 9 times (twice runner-up), in FG% 6 times, in blocks 9 times, in PER rating 9 times (3 times runner-up).

Compared to:

Shaq: Top-10 in scoring 10 times (incl. 6 times at top-2), in rebounding 7 times (3 times runner-up), in FG% 13 times (9 times 1st), in blocks 12 times (once 2nd), 14 times in PER rating (5 times 1st, each of which easily beats Duncan's best one).

Also, playoff-wise (till 2006):

24.1/12.7/3.6/2.69 on 50% FG for Duncan.
25.6/12.2/2.2/2.20 on 57% FG for Shaq, including post-prime years.

Shaq has overall career dominance over Duncan.
Career-wise? Give me Shaq, either if Duncan wins it this year or not.

[poeticism707]

What Duncan fans have not mentioned is:

Duncan: Top-10 in scoring 5 times, in rebounding 9 times (twice runner-up), in FG% 6 times, in blocks 9 times, in PER rating 9 times (3 times runner-up).

Compared to:

Shaq: Top-10 in scoring 10 times (incl. 6 times at top-2), in rebounding 7 times (3 times runner-up), in FG% 13 times (9 times 1st), in blocks 12 times (once 2nd), 14 times in PER rating (5 times 1st, each of which easily beats Duncan's best one).

Also, playoff-wise (till 2006):

24.1/12.7/3.6/2.69 on 50% FG for Duncan.
25.6/12.2/2.2/2.20 on 57% FG for Shaq, including post-prime years.

Shaq has overall career dominance over Duncan.
Career-wise? Give me Shaq, either if Duncan wins it this year or not.

Now these are excellent points! However, Shaq's lack of defense (as evidenced in 0 first team all defense, only 3 2nd team all defense) has ever made him a liability, which is only one reason Duncan has the edge.

[RidonKs]

Now these are excellent points!
Why, because he used awards and statistics to prove a point, because that's all you're willing to listen to, and comprehand?

All-NBA and All-Defense only matter if you HAVEN'T watched the player or players being analyzed. They help to show off the strengths and weaknesses of players, and allow insight as to what people at the time thought of the player or players.

However, considering Shaq and Duncan are quite recent, and pretty much everyone who've replied in this thread (or are even on this board) have watched most of their careers play out, the awards aren't necissary. They aren't necissary because if you've seen both of these players play, the superior is really never in doubt.

[Wuxia]

What Duncan fans have not mentioned is:

Duncan: Top-10 in scoring 5 times, in rebounding 9 times (twice runner-up), in FG% 6 times, in blocks 9 times, in PER rating 9 times (3 times runner-up).

Compared to:

Shaq: Top-10 in scoring 10 times (incl. 6 times at top-2), in rebounding 7 times (3 times runner-up), in FG% 13 times (9 times 1st), in blocks 12 times (once 2nd), 14 times in PER rating (5 times 1st, each of which easily beats Duncan's best one).

This is somewhat misleading because Shaq is clearly in the twilight of his career. There won't be any more seasons where Shaq can crack top 10 in any of those categories. Duncan, however is in the prime of his career. He is going to rack up at least a few more top-10 in Rebounding, Blocks, and PER. Do you agree?


Also, playoff-wise (till 2006):

24.1/12.7/3.6/2.69 on 50% FG for Duncan.
25.6/12.2/2.2/2.20 on 57% FG for Shaq, including post-prime years.

Shaq has overall career dominance over Duncan.
Career-wise? Give me Shaq, either if Duncan wins it this year or not.

Not that I am diasagreeing with you, but the 2nd statline looks better to me. Anyone else notice the same thing? In reading your post, I was expecting to see some crazy dominance numbers of Shaq over Duncan, but your stats definitely does not prove your case.

[Psileas]

This is somewhat misleading because Shaq is clearly in the twilight of his career. There won't be any more seasons where Shaq can crack top 10 in any of those categories. Duncan, however is in the prime of his career. He is going to rack up at least a few more top-10 in Rebounding, Blocks, and PER. Do you agree?

He probably will, but he won't compile Shaq's "pole positions". I mean, for an elite player, it's much easier to just crack the top-10 than being No1 in a category. Shaq led the league in scoring twice and in FG% 9 times, equaling Wilt's record. And has around 10 more runner-up positions in various categories. It's like comparing Jordan's and English' scoring: Both were consistantly at top-10, but Jordan, with his 10 scoring titles, displayed a bigger dominance in this field. So goes it for Shaq's and Duncan's statistical dominance.


Not that I am diasagreeing with you, but the 2nd statline looks better to me.

So we agree here. Shaq had the better statline.


In reading your post, I was expecting to see some crazy dominance numbers of Shaq over Duncan, but your stats definitely does not prove your case.

Well, I remind you that I included Shaq's post-prime years. Duncan had produced the aforementioned up to the age of 30. If we compare them to Shaq's numbers up to 30, they become:

Duncan: 24.1/12.7/3.6/2.69 on 50% FG
Shaq: 28.2/12.7/3.2/2.25 on 56% FG

[Wuxia]

He probably will, but he won't compile Shaq's "pole positions". I mean, for an elite player, it's much easier to just crack the top-10 than being No1 in a category. Shaq led the league in scoring twice and in FG% 9 times, equaling Wilt's record. And has around 10 more runner-up positions in various categories. It's like comparing Jordan's and English' scoring: Both were consistantly at top-10, but Jordan, with his 10 scoring titles, displayed a bigger dominance in this field. So goes it for Shaq's and Duncan's statistical dominance.



So we agree here. Shaq had the better statline.



Well, I remind you that I included Shaq's post-prime years. Duncan had produced the aforementioned up to the age of 30. If we compare them to Shaq's numbers up to 30, they become:

Duncan: 24.1/12.7/3.6/2.69 on 50% FG
Shaq: 28.2/12.7/3.2/2.25 on 56% FG

Wow, that statline is still not very convincing. Do you see what I'm saying here? Duncan averages 4 less points, which is obvious since we all know that Shaq is clearly the superior scorer, but Duncan has been the better passer and defender. Looks to me like they are about dead even.

PS: You also have take in consideration that Shaq also has "more" years of declining ahead of him which will further drop his playoff numbers.

[RidonKs]

Looks to me like they are about dead even.
How so? The 0.4 assist advantage and the 0.4 block advantage only help to even out that scoring edge. It's not like those are big differences between the two. And even if you were to think that those two stats completely evened out the scoring edge, you still have to take into consideration that Shaq is one of the msot efficient scorers on the block that this league has ever seen. 57% for his career. Duncan's 50% is no small feat, but it pails in comparison to Shaq. You could bring FT% into the mix, but it's not like either player is particularly efficient in that category.

PS: You also have take in consideration that Shaq also has "more" years of declining ahead of him which will further drop his playoff numbers.
And Duncan doesn't?

[Loki]

How so? The 0.4 assist advantage and the 0.4 block advantage only help to even out that scoring edge. It's not like those are big differences between the two. And even if you were to think that those two stats completely evened out the scoring edge, you still have to take into consideration that Shaq is one of the msot efficient scorers on the block that this league has ever seen. 57% for his career. Duncan's 50% is no small feat, but it pails in comparison to Shaq. You could bring FT% into the mix, but it's not like either player is particularly efficient in that category.

And Duncan doesn't?

Yeah, if you add in the difference in efficiency, Shaq has like a 7-9 ppg advantage on Duncan, which is large -- certainly more than enough to offset the small difference in bpg.

[mavsfan4zindagi]

Hank Aaron? :roll: Barry Bonds is better than Hank Aaron...not even a debate. Barry Bonds is this generations best baseball player and has an argument for GOAT. Horrible example...try using another sport because you dont know where Hank Aaron is ranked in terms of greatness. Damn sure aint on Bonds level.

Much as I despise every single thing about Bonds, there really is no debate about this. Bonds>Aaron. The End.

[Wuxia]

How so? The 0.4 assist advantage and the 0.4 block advantage only help to even out that scoring edge. It's not like those are big differences between the two. And even if you were to think that those two stats completely evened out the scoring edge, you still have to take into consideration that Shaq is one of the msot efficient scorers on the block that this league has ever seen. 57% for his career. Duncan's 50% is no small feat, but it pails in comparison to Shaq. You could bring FT% into the mix, but it's not like either player is particularly efficient in that category.

And Duncan doesn't?

I don't think thats fair. Duncan shoots a playoff career 70% from the FT line, which is nothing to brag about but its far more spectacular than Shaq's career 50% FT. You can't say that neither guy is efficient so lets throw away those stats. Thats the same difference as comparing an 85% FT shooter to a 65% FT shooter.

I'm a huge Duncan fan but even I think that Shaq has the edge right now as far as career goes, but I have no doubt Duncan will go down as the greater player once his career ends.

I just don't think those numbers represent a jawdropping difference to convince me that Shaq was clearly a greater player based on those numbers. A good arguement for Shaq is he was more dominant in his Peek Prime than Duncan ever was.

[WeJustNeedaRing]

Shaq is the most dominate force the league has ever seen. Tim Duncan may be the greatest power foward ever but hes not greater than shaq, why would somebody even bring up this conversation shaq is better and will always be end of discussion.

[Richie2k6]

Shaq is the most dominate force the league has ever seen. Tim Duncan may be the greatest power foward ever but hes not greater than shaq, why would somebody even bring up this conversation shaq is better and will always be end of discussion.
:rolleyes:

[poeticism707]

I don't think thats fair. Duncan shoots a playoff career 70% from the FT line, which is nothing to brag about but its far more spectacular than Shaq's career 50% FT. You can't say that neither guy is efficient so lets throw away those stats. Thats the same difference as comparing an 85% FT shooter to a 65% FT shooter.

I'm a huge Duncan fan but even I think that Shaq has the edge right now as far as career goes, but I have no doubt Duncan will go down as the greater player once his career ends.

I just don't think those numbers represent a jawdropping difference to convince me that Shaq was clearly a greater player based on those numbers. A good arguement for Shaq is he was more dominant in his Peek Prime than Duncan ever was.
:applause:

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[poeticism707]

:violin:

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[poeticism707]

:confusedshrug:

[Loki]

I think if you eliminated the times when poeticism has posted :pimp: faces, this thread would be 7 pages instead of 13. :)

[poeticism707]

I think if you eliminated the times when poeticism has posted :pimp: faces, this thread would be 7 pages instead of 13. :)

I whole-heartedly disagree, Loki!

I haven't once posted this emoticon::) .

But now, it is somehow appropriate:

:)

[Timmy D for MVP]

Shaq is the most dominate force the league has ever seen. Tim Duncan may be the greatest power foward ever but hes not greater than shaq, why would somebody even bring up this conversation shaq is better and will always be end of discussion.

I'm sick of hearing this "Shaq was the most dominate force ever." Wilt Chamberlien was the most dominate to ever play teh game, period.

[EricForman]

I'm sick of hearing this "Shaq was the most dominate force ever." Wilt Chamberlien was the most dominate to ever play teh game, period.

Most dominant force that kept losing and by the time he won, he had to tone down his game and basically... STOP SCORING.

Again, I've said this countless times, stats from those days are too skewed, it means nothing.

Wilt is up there in terms of dominance, but hands down, the single most dominant ever? Not necessarily.

Shaq's 40-20s in the NBA FINALS against modern competition is more impressive than whtaever Wilt's playoff outputs were (which, by the way, were usualy lower than their regular season stats)

[Timmy D for MVP]

Most dominant force that kept losing and by the time he won, he had to tone down his game and basically... STOP SCORING.

Again, I've said this countless times, stats from those days are too skewed, it means nothing.

Wilt is up there in terms of dominance, but hands down, the single most dominant ever? Not necessarily.

Shaq's 40-20s in the NBA FINALS against modern competition is more impressive than whtaever Wilt's playoff outputs were (which, by the way, were usualy lower than their regular season stats)

Oh you're right, we must cripple a player due to his stats. Russells 11 rings, pshhh whatever, it was back then right?

Dominant: Providing superior influence, or control. Proving the most prominant/accending.

That describes Wilt better than anyone.

[poeticism707]

Oh you're right, we must cripple a player due to his stats. Russells 11 rings, pshhh whatever, it was back then right?

Dominant: Providing superior influence, or control. Proving the most prominant/accending.

That describes Wilt better than anyone.

:violin:

[poeticism707]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

[sbw19]

Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan,
during which he faced much better competition, not to mention he didn't have an ideal environment to thrive in like Duncan, i.e. an established superstar and an organization with great personnel (scouts, coaches etc..) that made the Spurs such a winning franchise of late.

[poeticism707]

during which he faced much better competition, not to mention he didn't have an ideal environment to thrive in like Duncan, i.e. an established superstar and an organaization with great personnel (scouts, coaches etc..) that made the Spurs such a winning franchise of late.

Congradulations! You've just invalidated Magic Johnson and Bill Russel's ENITER CAREER! What has he won, Bob? His own stupidity.

[sbw19]

Congradulations! You've just invalidated Magic Johnson and Bill Russel's ENITER CAREER!

No. I've pointed out two facts which helped Duncan become a winner that Shaq didn't have, and I believe them to be pertinent to this thread.

[poeticism707]

No. I've pointed out two facts which helped Duncan become a winner that Shaq didn't have, and I believe them to be pertinent to this thread.

Shaq also played with Kobe and Wade, both obviously better than any of Duncan's teammates.

Phil Jackson= 9 titles

Greg Poppovich= 3 titles

Any other baseless arguments? :confusedshrug:

[sbw19]

Shaq also played with Kobe and Wade, both obviously better than any of Duncan's teammates.

Phil Jackson= 9 titles

Greg Poppovich= 3 titles

Any other baseless arguments?
I meant during that five-year period.

But I'd have to say, the Spurs organization has been one of the best, if not THE BEST organization in the NBA during the last 10 years. And it certainly has been the most consistent.

[GOBB]

Oh you're right, we must cripple a player due to his stats. Russells 11 rings, pshhh whatever, it was back then right?

Dominant: Providing superior influence, or control. Proving the most prominant/accending.

That describes Wilt better than anyone.

Shaq or Wilt both can be argued as the most dominant ever. Not that hard...you dont have to slight Shaq because he is being compared to Tim Duncan.

[Dizzle-2k7]

shaq had penny in his first 5 years along with a pretty damn good orlando cast.

to call drob a "superstar" while he was with duncan is really reaching. he was in the twilight of his career when duncan arrived. yes, he was effective, but hardly a superstar.

shaq has played with penny, kobe, and wade. i still dont understand why someone would take shaqs 3-5 years of dominance over tim duncan's CAREER of dominance. not to mention all of shaqs antics and drama that get in the way.

tim duncan is a professional and a winner at that. end of story.

[GOBB]

shaq had penny in his first 5 years along with a pretty damn good orlando cast.

to call drob a "superstar" while he was with duncan is really reaching. he was in the twilight of his career when duncan arrived. yes, he was effective, but hardly a superstar.

shaq has played with penny, kobe, and wade. i still dont understand why someone would take shaqs 3-5 years of dominance over tim duncan's CAREER of dominance. not to mention all of shaqs antics and drama that get in the way.

tim duncan is a professional and a winner at that. end of story.

Avgs Career 26ppg at 58% FG. Postseason 27ppg 56% FG.

3 times came close to avg 30ppg in the reg season. Avg over 30ppg 3 times in the postseason for his career. Thats dominance.

Since Shaq has been in the NBA what NBA Center has come close to avg 30ppg+ for a regular season? How about 30 ppg+ in the postseason? List them all. If you cant keep your mouth shut.

[poeticism707]

Avgs Career 26ppg at 58% FG. Postseason 27ppg 56% FG.

3 times came close to avg 30ppg in the reg season. Avg over 30ppg 3 times in the postseason for his career. Thats dominance.

Since Shaq has been in the NBA what NBA Center has come close to avg 30ppg+ for a regular season? How about 30 ppg+ in the postseason? List them all. If you cant keep your mouth shut.

See career averages for both players; they don't lie, no matter how much you wish they would in favor of Shaq.

[Wuxia]

Avgs Career 26ppg at 58% FG. Postseason 27ppg 56% FG.

3 times came close to avg 30ppg in the reg season. Avg over 30ppg 3 times in the postseason for his career. Thats dominance.

Since Shaq has been in the NBA what NBA Center has come close to avg 30ppg+ for a regular season? How about 30 ppg+ in the postseason? List them all. If you cant keep your mouth shut.

I think DRob's output of 29.9 in 1995 was higher than any of Shaq's regular season average. Hakeem has averaged 30+ PPG in the PO more than once since Shaq has been in the league.

[poeticism707]

:banana:

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[sbw19]

shaq had penny in his first 5 years along with a pretty damn good orlando cast.

to call drob a "superstar" while he was with duncan is really reaching. he was in the twilight of his career when duncan arrived. yes, he was effective, but hardly a superstar.

shaq has played with penny, kobe, and wade. i still dont understand why someone would take shaqs 3-5 years of dominance over tim duncan's CAREER of dominance. not to mention all of shaqs antics and drama that get in the way.

tim duncan is a professional and a winner at that. end of story.
DRob averaged 22, 11, 3 & 3 on 51 FG% in Duncan's rookie year. Shaq almost won an MVP putting up similar numbers. He might not have been a superstar in terms of productivity, but he was no ordinary star either. But that's not here nor there. My point was clear. Duncan had an accomplished veteran presense, and a big man no less, to guide his path, alongside a more competent coach/management during the first five years of his career, which we all agree about.

And in terms of winning, Duncan would not have won more than Shaq had he played against the likes of Jordan, Hakeem etc.. if he was playing for Orlando. And Shaq proved he's a winner four times playing for two different franchises.

And Shaq has always been dominant (prior to his recent decline). That's at least 10 years of dominance, and that includes the likes of Duncan as well.

[GOBB]

See career averages for both players; they don't lie, no matter how much you wish they would in favor of Shaq.

Duncan hasnt been the scorer Shaq has been in both the regular and postseason. Fact not fiction. Its called total domination. Duncan has never been on Shaq's level in scoring.

[poeticism707]

DRob averaged 22, 11, 3 & 3 on 51 FG% in Duncan's rookie year. Shaq almost won an MVP putting up similar numbers. He might not have been a superstar in terms of productivity, but he was no ordinary star either. But that's not here nor there. My point was clear. Duncan had an accomplished veteran presense, and a big man no less, to guide his path, alongside a more competent coach/management during the first five years of his career, which we all agree about.

And in terms of winning, Duncan would not have won more than Shaq had he played against the likes of Jordan, Hakeem etc.. if he was playing for Orlando. And Shaq proved he's a winner four times playing for two different franchises.

And Shaq has always been dominant (prior to his recent decline). That's at least 10 years of dominance, and that includes the likes of Duncan as well.

Tim Duncan beat the Lakers enroute to 2 titles, Shaq beat Spurs enroute to 2 titles. Where is this so called dominance? :confusedshrug:

[poeticism707]

:confusedshrug:

[IBLEEDGREEN43]

:confusedshrug:

i hate you

[20 Dimes A Game]

Duncan will never ever have the level of complete domination Shaq had and how much fear prime Shaq puts in big men.

[sbw19]

Tim Duncan beat the Lakers enroute to 2 titles, Shaq beat Spurs enroute to 2 titles. Where is this so called dominance? :confusedshrug:

In practically every game Shaq has played while healthy before his decline, and even in many games after it. There's a clear difference between Shaq dominated, and his team winning titles. Same goes with Duncan, and all other great players. Shaq just did it better and for a longer time than any basketball great not named Jordan, Magic or Bird in the last 25 years, and that includes Hakeem and Duncan.

Btw, let me know when a Duncan-led team actually achieves a threepeat since you believe winning titles is the be-all, end-all sign of a player's dominance. :cheers:

[poeticism707]

In practically every game Shaq has played while healthy before his decline, and even in many games after it. There's a clear difference between Shaq dominated, and his team winning titles. Same goes with Duncan, and all other great players. Shaq just did it better and for a longer time than any basketball great not named Jordan, Magic or Bird in the last 25 years, and that includes Hakeem and Duncan.

Btw, let me know when a Duncan-led team actually achieves a threepeat since you believe winning titles is the be-all, end-all sign of a player's dominance. :cheers:

These are very solid points. However, the last time I checked, 1+1+1=3, whether it is consecutive or no.

[dhenk]

On the day Shaq came into the nba,I hated him...I hated the hype and the attitude...
Now,when I look back over the last decade....
he is truely -imo- the best and most dominating center in the last 20 years...
and maybe because I

[poeticism707]

Here is a system that NBA_Analyst (And ISH poster) has been working on for 2 years, and Here he compares Shaq and Tim Duncan.

Here is the system:


This system tells which of the 2 players is better TODAay... So name 2 players and I'll tell you who is better... Based on numerous amounts of things...From individual performance, to winning...System is purely Objective.....By the way, I love to get reviews!...And don't worry, it doesn't have too many errors or faults in it, I have been working on it for 2 years...It is at its finest...
(Tells which 2 players are better today, so no use of previous stats)

(YOU CAN DO HISTORIC Players as well...But be aware that the system is less accurate on historic players, but still is accurate...Historic Matchups take MUCH longer...You probably will receive results of those matchups the next day...So there is a limit from me on historic matchups...)

But lets start out, no historic players yet...



This system is broken to 4 parts

Individual Score- All stats only on player based on this year...

Team Impact Score- All stats on player impacting team based on this year...

Winning Score- How good the player has been at winning in his career, so rings, and everything... Needed, cuz rings count...

Award Score- How many awards has the player gotten in career, it doesn't factor in that as much as others... Reduced for players out of prime
[/B]

************************************************** *************
READ MORE FOR
DETAILS:

Here are all the factors again (per game)


Individual Factor


1.Scoring Score- combines, points, points per 48, and non assisted shot %

2.Rebounding Score- Combines rebounds, reb per 48, and a reb rate,

3.Assist Score- assist, assist per 48, and assist rate

4.Steal Score- steals, and steal per 48

5.Block Score- blocks, and blocks per 48

6.TO score- TOs, TOs per 48, and TO/Ast Ratio

7.3pt Score- Combines 3pt%, 3pt M, 3pt A

8.FT Score- FT % and FT M

9.FG Score- FG%, FG M, FG A, eFG%, TS%

10.PER

11.EFF

12.Defensive Counterpart PER

13.Defensive Award addition: Defensive awards total *2(Extra on defense cuz, this is one of the only places where you can measure defense in numbers)

13.Clutch- counts eFG%, wins, and points in clutch





TEAM Impact


Team Impact is the least complex...It just measures, how you well you fit into your team, and how well you and your team plays...

It uses team success, with you on and off the court...As well as how your team does period WITH you on the court

Great, because, Players need to fit in the team too, and not just take stats




WINNING

Age doesn't matter. How can age not matter when talking about awards and titles, u'll see.
I broke it down to Total titles and awards, and % titles and awards. The totals support the older players, and the % support the young ones.
Percentages work like this, if a player has won 3 titles in 10 years, then he has 30%, if a player has won 1 titles in 3 years, then 33%, and so on. You will understand more as we get the totals.


TOTALS
Titles +5
CHOOSE 1
Role Titles(R.Horry) +6
Lead Titles (B.Wallace or M.Ginobili) +10
Finals MVPs +15

Lead to Finals but lost +6
Playoff Apps +2
Led team to 50+ wins (seasons) +3
Led team to 60+ wins (seasons) +5
TOTAL:


PERCENTAGES
ROUND TO NEAREST WHOLE NUMBER
Titles + %/6
R Titles + %/4
L Titles + %/1
Finals MVP + %/1 (20- # of years played)
Lead to Finals MVP but lost + %/4
Lead to Playoffs + %/10
Lead to 50+ wins + %/8
Lead to 60+ wins + %/5
% Total:Total *1.5

Grand Total:Average % total, and total total, up to get grand total





AWARDS FACTOR

Age doesn't matter. How can age not matter when talking about awards and titles, u'll see.
I broke it down to Total titles and awards, and % titles and awards. The totals support the older players, and the % support the young ones.
Percentages work like this, if a player has won 3 titles in 10 years, then he has 30%, if a player has won 1 titles in 3 years, then 33%, and so on. You will understand more as we get the totals. But I guess it matters some with VERY young players...When the player is very young, the award section won't be added...

All-Star App: +5
MVP: +15
1st Team: +10
2nd Team: +7
3rd Team: +4
DPOY: +8
D 1st team: +6
D 2nd Team: +4
TOTAL:

PERCENTAGES
All-Star + %/5
MVP + %/1 + (20-# of years played)
1st Team + %/1
2nd Team + %/3
3rd Team + %/6
DPOY + %/2
1st D Team + %/4
2nd D Team + %/6
% Total:Total *1.5

Grand Total:Average % total, and total total, up to get grand total, and then divide by 2


ON PLAYERS THAT DON'T PLAY THIS YEAR OR YOU DON'T WANT MEASURED THIS YEAR, AWARDS WILL BE DOUBLED...



NOTE:

Even though the Award and Winning thing does take care of age differences, it doesn't do well on players that very young vs. veterans

like Anthony, Bosh, Howard, etc.

So I recommend taking the Awards especially OFF...Winning, its alrite usually...

But remember, you can still do VERY YOUNG vs. Old...

[poeticism707]

Here are the results from page 15 of the current ISH thread entitled:
Re: ***Super ACCURATE Player System***



Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal

[FONT="Georgia"]
Scoring Score: O'Neal by 6


Rebounding Score: Duncan by 6


Assist Score: Duncan by 12


Stealing Score: Duncan by 7


Blocking Score: Duncan by 2


TO Score: Duncan by 5


3pt Score: Tie


FT Score: Duncan by 6


Shooting and Scoring Score: O'Neal by 13


Clutch Score: O'Neal by 13


PER: O'Neal by 5


EFF: Duncan by 4


Individual Defense: Duncan by 23




TOTAL TEAM SCORE: Duncan by 5



TOTAL WINNING SCORE: O'Neal by 6



TOTAL AWARDS SCORE: Duncan by 24




Individual Score: Duncan by 41
Team Score: Duncan by 5
Winning Score: O'Neal by 6
Awards Score: Duncan by 24


FINAL SCORE: Duncan by 66


WINNER: Tim Duncan

It wouldn't be redundant, considering the thread, to say I told you so...:banana: :roll: :banana: :roll: :banana: :roll: :banana: :roll:

[RagingBull33]

Here are the results from page 15 of the current ISH thread entitled:
Re: ***Super ACCURATE Player System***



It wouldn't be redundant, considering the thread, to say I told you so...:banana: :roll: :banana: :roll: :banana: :roll: :banana: :roll:
That is Duncan vs. Shaq NOW. Not prime vs prime.
Face it dude, Shaq is top 3 in most dominant to ever play the game.

[poeticism707]

That is Duncan vs. Shaq NOW. Not prime vs prime.
Face it dude, Shaq is top 3 in most dominant to ever play the game.

This is a comparison of their total careers to date. I could care less about some mystical, 3 years of someone's "prime."

[poeticism707]

:s:sleeping

[poeticism707]

:rollingeyes:

[Rameek]

How many great centers did shaq face in his prime? how many great PF's did Duncan face in his prime? I think it would be easier for shaq to dominate IMHO.:cheers:

[ChrisConley]

One of the reasons Duncan is so good is his teammates. If you replace Garnett with Duncan on Minnesota for the past 10 years, they wouldn't get any more wins. From my limited Duncan watching experience (playoffs last 10 years, big national TV games), it seems to me that he can't do sh!t when he's doubled. He passes off to an excellent 3-pt shooter who knocks down a 3. Or makes a nice pass in the lane to a slasher who is a great finisher. He only dominates with single coverage (and he does dominate). Shaq throws it down with 2 dudes hanging off of him all the time.

[Blue&Orange]

Shaq dominated Mutumbo's face a lot more than Duncan.

[td21spurs]

Yeah, Duncan is greater than Shaq. who did Shaq play with during the 3 peat run? the lakers were packed with veterans that know how to win games. Glen Rice? the laker squad that lifted the lakers up, arguably the key to win the 2000 nba championship. Ron Harper? MJ's second best sidekick 1 of PJ's favorite players from the bulls dynasty. Robert Horry, Hakeem's boy. do i need to tell u that this guy is a killer. Derek Fisher. Rick Fox. Lindsey hunter. these are very reliable players. they can fulfill their roles. not to mention that Shaq had Kobe Bryant, the greatest sidekick of all time.

throughout Shaq's entire career he has been playing with top notch swingmen. Penny Hardaway(a lesser version of Kobe, 1 of the best young players at that time), Kobe bryant, and Dwade who is almost as good as Kobe in terms of skills. Shaq couldn't win a single chip with Penny because he did not have enough help, not enough well experienced players around him. and he couldn't make those players better. unlike when he's with the lakers and the heat, he had tons of veterans in both teams. and they helped him win 4 championships.

Who did Timmy have? a few players with some experiences and new guys. if the spurs didn't get Timmy, do u think that Drob could lead the spurs to the nba title? would Drob win the championship without Timmy? would TP and Manu be as affective as they are now playing with Drob? nah. Tim made them better. period. the spurs wouldn't be a contender team without Tim Duncan. how else would u explain the transformation of the spurs? Tim is the reason why the spurs have become 1 of the most successful franchises in the nba history.

Shaq definitely is 1 of the greatest big men of all time. he led the lakers to championships, the leader of the team. he is great, but sorry he is not better than Tim Duncan. :no:


From my limited Duncan watching experience.

Stfu now?

[poeticism707]

Yeah, Duncan is greater than Shaq. who did Shaq play with during the 3 peat run? the lakers were packed with veterans that know how to win games. Glen Rice? the laker squad that lifted the lakers up, arguably the key to win the 2000 nba championship. Ron Harper? MJ's second best sidekick 1 of PJ's favorite players from the bulls dynasty. Robert Horry, Hakeem's boy. do i need to tell u that this guy is a killer. Derek Fisher. Rick Fox. Lindsey hunter. these are very reliable players. they can fulfill their roles. not to mention that Shaq had Kobe Bryant, the greatest sidekick of all time.

throughout Shaq's entire career he has been playing with top notch swingmen. Penny Hardaway(a lesser version of Kobe, 1 of the best young players at that time), Kobe bryant, and Dwade who is almost as good as Kobe in terms of skills. Shaq couldn't win a single chip with Penny because he did not have enough help, not enough well experienced players around him. and he couldn't make those players better. unlike when he's with the lakers and the heat, he had tons of veterans in both teams. and they helped him win 4 championships.

Who did Timmy have? a few players with some experiences and new guys. if the spurs didn't get Timmy, do u think that Drob could lead the spurs to the nba title? would Drob win the championship without Timmy? would TP and Manu be as affective as they are now playing with Drob? nah. Tim made them better. period. the spurs wouldn't be a contender team without Tim Duncan. how else would u explain the transformation of the spurs? Tim is the reason why the spurs have become 1 of the most successful franchises in the nba history.

Shaq definitely is 1 of the greatest big men of all time. he led the lakers to championships, the leader of the team. he is great, but sorry he is not better than Tim Duncan. :no:



Stfu now?

:cheers:

[poeticism707]

NEW UPDATED STATISTICS!

Titles:

Duncan- 4
Shaq- 4

Congrads Tim Duncan and San Antonio Spurs!

[RainierBeachPoet]

another good bump

[Wo1fshadow]

Duncan got all 4 championships with 1 team whereas shaq had to move. although he got them closer (as in the year)

[haji_d_robertas]

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 4
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, both are even with 4 titles, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

You are one incredible number-crunching putz, aren't you? 1+1= Duncan! 2-3=Duncan! if x=y to the power of z, then x= Duncan!

[Myth]

I see it as Duncan had 3-4 years where he was just a monstrous beast. Duncan never had a better individual season than Shaq's best. Duncan, however, has been more consistent which payed off in a slightly better career (awards wise). Overall though, a winner is a winner. And they have each won 4 times and that is what matters. One side can argue that Duncan's longevity makes him better, while Shaq's 3 years of dominance makes him better. It all depends on your perspective.

Overall if I was asked who I'd rather have, it depends on what specifically is asked:
Who would I take for 1 year in their prime? Shaq.
Who would I take for an entire career? Duncan.

[poeticism707]

another good bump
:cheers:

[VCMVP1551]

Shaq was robbed of the MVP in 99', 00' and 05' so he should have 4. As far as All NBA Duncan just starts at PF so he can start in the all star game and be all nba first team..he really plays center. Also did Duncan ever average 38 and 17 in an NBA finals...nope didn't think so.

[Myth]

Shaq was robbed of the MVP in 99', 00' and 05' so he should have 4.

Uh? He did not deserve it in 1999. 2000 WAS the year he got it. In 2005 nobody was really deserving of an MVP, but I do agree that he should have beat out Nash for that one. Shaq did deserve it in 2001 though IMO. That should have been 3 (with 2 of them being truly deserving).

If Shaq played his seasons like he played his playoffs, then he would have deserved even more, but he didn't.

[ThaRegul8r]

Shaq was robbed of the MVP in 99', 00' and 05' so he should have 4.

Duncan deserved MVP in '99. Not Shaq.

[Lebron23]

Duncan deserved MVP in '99. Not Shaq.

http://www.patandkat.com/pat/weblog/images/webber-dunk1.jpg

Chris Webber is the real MVP in 1999 after the Sacramento Kings have a turn around season in that year.

Chris Webber stats in 1998-99

20.0 PPG, 13.0 RPG, 2.1 BPG, 4.1 APG ( lead the NBA in rebounds)

Chris Webber stats in the 2000-01

27.1 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 1.7 APG, 2.0 BPG ( 4th in NBA Voting)

Sacramento Kings: 55 Wins 27 loses

[VCMVP1551]

http://www.patandkat.com/pat/weblog/images/webber-dunk1.jpg

Chris Webber is the real MVP in 1999 after the Sacramento Kings have a turn around in that year.

Chris Webber stats in 1998-99

20.0 PPG, 13.0 RPG, 2.1 BPG, 4.1 APG ( lead the NBA in rebounds)

Chris Webber stats in the 2000-01

27.1 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 1.7 APG, 2.0 BPG ( 4th in NBA Voting)

Sacramento Kings: 55 Wins 27 loses

Good point although I stick to Shaq especially in 2001

28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 56-26 record. Shaq also turned around the season after Kobe almost chucked it away. Shouldn't have been a question.

C-Webb deserved it in 2001-2002

24.5 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.4 bpg, 61-21 record.

[ThaRegul8r]

I stick to Shaq especially in 2001

28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 56-26 record. Shaq also turned around the season after Kobe almost chucked it away. Shouldn't have been a question.

On that, I'll agree with you.

EDIT: Hold up. I just remembered that was during the Shaq-Kobe feud when Shaq said, "When the dog is fed, he’ll guard the yard. When he’s not, anybody can come in." Nah, that's not the attitude of an MVP.

[Myth]

C-Webb deserved it in 2001-2002

24.5 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.4 bpg, 61-21 record.

I don't think a 3 game difference is enough to offset Duncan's:
25.5 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 0.7 spg, 2.5 bpg, 58-24 record (with better defense).

Just my opinion though.

[VCMVP1551]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]On that, I'll agree with you.

EDIT: Hold up. I just remembered that was during the Shaq-Kobe feud when Shaq said, "When the dog is fed, he

[ThaRegul8r]

The quote is "If the big dog aint me the house won't get guarded" Shaq was telling the truth Kobe was averaging 30 ppg and Shaq about 26 but they weren't winning much and once Kobe got injured Shaq took over and the team started dominating and Kobe noticed and came back as a 26 ppg with Shaq as the 30 ppg. That is what an MVP does he turned a struggling team into one of the most dominant teams ever down the stretch and in the playoffs. Chick Hearn said they were playing as well as any Laker team. Shaq had every right to be mad about Kobe chucking early on..Shaq was coming off one of the best seasons ever in which he was the league MVP, scoring champion, 2 in rebounds, 3 in blocks, 2 in DPOY voting and had a 38 ppg, 16.7 rpg NBA finals when Kobe had a terrible finals literally carrying the Lakers during the finals not to mention leading them to 67 wins during the regular season.

I know what the quote was, I took it directly from the source. I gave the exact quote. The fact is that feud cost him the MVP. With all the publicity the whole Shaq-Kobe thing got and the way the Lakers season went up until the playoffs, he wasn't going to win MVP. It's as simple as that. I had forgotten about that.

[VCMVP1551]

I know what the quote was, I took it directly from the source. I gave the exact quote. The fact is that feud cost him the MVP. With all the publicity the whole Shaq-Kobe thing got and the way the Lakers season went up until the playoffs, he wasn't going to win MVP. It's as simple as that. I had forgotten about that.


It is stupid that the feud cost him the MVP. He was clearly the best and most valuable player in the league that year. He saved that season for the Lakers.

[poeticism707]

:pimp:

[Heilige]

:pimp:


:sleeping

[skillswithaz]

another good bump

thanks! he needed that!

[kentatm]

i would have liked to see prime Shaq play with prime Duncan.

would that team even lose?

you'd have to hope you were close late in the game and try to make them beat you at the FT is the only weakness I can see.

[poeticism707]

thanks! he needed that!
:D

[Lebron23]

This is an interesting thread because Duncan and Shaq would meet in the first round of the playoffs, and i personally think that the Phoenix Suns will advance in the 2nd round of the post season if Shaq can contained Duncan in the low posts, and if the Suns will play defense in the 4th quarter.

[VCMVP1551]

Rivalry Renwed

This could be a the best series of the playoffs!

Aside from the fact the Spurs are the defending champs and already had a great rivalry with the Suns...look at the Shaq and Duncan matchup!

2 big men who were drafted number 1 overall in the 90's with their teams hoping they would continue in the tradition of Kareem, Wilt and Russell by dominating in the paint and winning titles.

Shaq's accomplishments
1992-1993 Rookie Of The Year
1999-2000 MVP
2000, 2001, 2002, 2006 NBA Champion
2000, 2001, 2002 Finals MVP
6 Finals appearances
14 Time All Star
1992-1993 All-NBA Rookie First Team
9 Time FG% leader
8 Time All-NBA First Team
2 Time All-NBA Second Team
3 Time All-NBA Third Team
3 Time All-Defensive Second Team
1994-1995 Scoring Champion, 1999-2000 Scoring Champion

Tim Duncan's accomplishments
1997-1998 Rookie Of The Year
2001-2002 MVP, 2002-2003 MVP
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 NBA Champion
1999, 2003, 2005 Finals MVP
4 Finals appearances
10 Time All Star
1997-1998 All Rookie First Team
9 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
7 Time All-Defensive First Team
3 Time All-Defensive Second Team

Shaq's career stats
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.4 bpg, 58.1 FG%
Playoffs- 25.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.2 bpg, 56.6 FG%

Tim Duncan's career stats
Regular Season- 21.6 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 50.8 FG%
Playoffs- 23.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.8 bpg, 50.7 FG%

Shaq's Finals stats
1995 Finals
28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg, 59.5 FG%

2000 Finals
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg 61.1 FG%

2001 Finals
33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2002 Finals
36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

2004 Finals
26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.6 bpg, 63.1 FG%

2006 Finals
13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.8 bpg, 60.7 FG%

Tim Duncan's Finals stats
1999 Finals
27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 2.2 bpg, 53.7 FG%

2003 Finals
24.2 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.3 apg, 5.3 bpg, 49.5 FG%

2005 Finals
20.0 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 41.2 FG%

2007 Finals
18.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 44.6 FG%


Shaq and Duncan head to head(Regular Season)
Shaq- 23.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 54.6 FG%
Duncan- 22.0 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.4 bpg, 44.2 FG%

Shaq leads 16-11 in the regular season.

Shaq and Duncan head to head(Playoffs)
Shaq- 24.2 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.8 bpg, 53.6 FG%
Duncan- 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 2.4 bpg 48.3 FG%

Shaq leads 3 series to 2 and 14-11 in single games.


And if that didn't make this interesting enough the two of them even were the Co-MVPs at the 2000 all star game
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/51960408.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/51056426.jpg

The head to head matchups have been very even throughout the career but Shaq has put Duncan on many posters.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/51535300.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingonDuncan.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqdunkingonDuncan2.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingOnTimDuncan2.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingOnTimDuncan.jpg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NYPzTbobXVo

In the last 2 meetings with Tim Duncan Shaq has been able to shut him down

Last game during the 4th quarter when Shaq defended Duncan the whole time both were playing during the quarter Shaq held Tim to just 2 points on 1-5 shooting.

The game before that Duncan shot just 6-19 and I believe only one of those shots was made while Shaq was guarding him. Shaq guarded Tim the majority of that game.

This matchup is really what the NBA needs. Shaq and Duncan have carried the center position this era in a time when most big men would rather play on the perimeter than in the low post. As a result both have 4 ring rings and 3 finals MVP's. Both of them play the position very differently too. Shaq is a power player while Duncan is a bit more of a finesse player.

This matchup is very difficult for Duncan because Shaq dwarfs Duncan in both height and weight so Tim can't go to his bread an dbutter which is his low post game. Shaq's long arms also take away Tim's face the basket game.

[poeticism707]

Rivalry Renwed

This could be a the best series of the playoffs!

Aside from the fact the Spurs are the defending champs and already had a great rivalry with the Suns...look at the Shaq and Duncan matchup!

2 big men who were drafted number 1 overall in the 90's with their teams hoping they would continue in the tradition of Kareem, Wilt and Russell by dominating in the paint and winning titles.

Shaq's accomplishments
1992-1993 Rookie Of The Year
1999-2000 MVP
2000, 2001, 2002, 2006 NBA Champion
2000, 2001, 2002 Finals MVP
6 Finals appearances
14 Time All Star
1992-1993 All-NBA Rookie First Team
9 Time FG% leader
8 Time All-NBA First Team
2 Time All-NBA Second Team
3 Time All-NBA Third Team
3 Time All-Defensive Second Team
1994-1995 Scoring Champion, 1999-2000 Scoring Champion

Tim Duncan's accomplishments
1997-1998 Rookie Of The Year
2001-2002 MVP, 2002-2003 MVP
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 NBA Champion
1999, 2003, 2005 Finals MVP
4 Finals appearances
10 Time All Star
1997-1998 All Rookie First Team
9 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
7 Time All-Defensive First Team
3 Time All-Defensive Second Team

Shaq's career stats
Regular Season- 25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.4 bpg, 58.1 FG%
Playoffs- 25.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.2 bpg, 56.6 FG%

Tim Duncan's career stats
Regular Season- 21.6 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 50.8 FG%
Playoffs- 23.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.8 bpg, 50.7 FG%

Shaq's Finals stats
1995 Finals
28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg, 59.5 FG%

2000 Finals
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg 61.1 FG%

2001 Finals
33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2002 Finals
36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

2004 Finals
26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.6 bpg, 63.1 FG%

2006 Finals
13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.8 bpg, 60.7 FG%

Tim Duncan's Finals stats
1999 Finals
27.4 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 2.2 bpg, 53.7 FG%

2003 Finals
24.2 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 5.3 apg, 5.3 bpg, 49.5 FG%

2005 Finals
20.0 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 41.2 FG%

2007 Finals
18.3 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 44.6 FG%


Shaq and Duncan head to head(Regular Season)
Shaq- 23.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 54.6 FG%
Duncan- 22.0 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.4 bpg, 44.2 FG%

Shaq leads 16-11 in the regular season.

Shaq and Duncan head to head(Playoffs)
Shaq- 24.2 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.8 bpg, 53.6 FG%
Duncan- 25.8 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 2.4 bpg 48.3 FG%

Shaq leads 3 series to 2 and 14-11 in single games.


And if that didn't make this interesting enough the two of them even were the Co-MVPs at the 2000 all star game
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/51960408.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/51056426.jpg

The head to head matchups have been very even throughout the career but Shaq has put Duncan on many posters.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/51535300.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingonDuncan.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqdunkingonDuncan2.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingOnTimDuncan2.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/ShaqDunkingOnTimDuncan.jpg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NYPzTbobXVo

In the last 2 meetings with Tim Duncan Shaq has been able to shut him down

Last game during the 4th quarter when Shaq defended Duncan the whole time both were playing during the quarter Shaq held Tim to just 2 points on 1-5 shooting.

The game before that Duncan shot just 6-19 and I believe only one of those shots was made while Shaq was guarding him. Shaq guarded Tim the majority of that game.

This matchup is really what the NBA needs. Shaq and Duncan have carried the center position this era in a time when most big men would rather play on the perimeter than in the low post. As a result both have 4 ring rings and 3 finals MVP's. Both of them play the position very differently too. Shaq is a power player while Duncan is a bit more of a finesse player.

This matchup is very difficult for Duncan because Shaq dwarfs Duncan in both height and weight so Tim can't go to his bread an dbutter which is his low post game. Shaq's long arms also take away Tim's face the basket game.

Imagine my surprise upon randomly revisiting ISH after a decade away (feels like it, certainly) to find ANOTHER post of mine on the second page: the true and objective comparison of Duncan and Shaq!

I'm rather touched emotionally!

However, as to addressing Duncan and Shaq in the first round, I'll start another thread.

[shaoyut]

shaq pwns duncan