Michael Jordan Fury II

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ7iGPAW4pM


Imagine if Jordan replaced Durant or Westbrook in this tight WCF series - OKC would destroy the Warriors, proving how GOAT Jordan is.

MJ was a much smarter and superior athlete than Westbrook with better midrange jumpshooting than Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).. That's the goat.

[Straight_Ballin]

Indeed. It sucks watching inferior products but that's post 90's sports for ya.

No Jerry Rice
No Wayne Gretzky
No Jordan

At least I got to see it when it went down and I'm pretty thankful for it.

[ralph_i_el]

Indeed. It sucks watching inferior products but that's post 90's sports for ya.

No Jerry Rice
No Wayne Gretzky
No Jordan

At least I got to see it when it went down and I'm pretty thankful for it.

Yup, all the best athletes came from the exact period when you were a young adult. I'm sure that's just a coincidence and has nothing to do with nostalgia goggles.

[Straight_Ballin]

Yup, all the best athletes came from the exact period when you were a young adult. I'm sure that's just a coincidence and has nothing to do with nostalgia goggles.

It has to do with the mindet of those athletes from that time period. It's no coincidence that the best players in their respective sports all came from the same era.

[plowking]

Indeed. It sucks watching inferior products but that's post 90's sports for ya.

No Jerry Rice
No Wayne Gretzky
No Jordan

At least I got to see it when it went down and I'm pretty thankful for it.

I personally can't rate Jordan as the best basketball player. Sorry, but anyone who would lose to Kevin Hart in a 3 point contest, especially as a guard, can't be considered the best.

[andgar923]

It has to do with the mindet of those athletes from that time period. It's no coincidence that the best players in their respective sports all came from the same era.
This

No doubt there are still great stars today, but athletes from past eras had a different mindset all across.

It's also not nostalgia since most experts usually rank the 80-90s Stars amongst the best.

Even players that crossed that era and today usually state the same.

[Bless Mathews]

Goat of all goats.

[ZMonkey11]

Indeed. It sucks watching inferior products but that's post 90's sports for ya.

No Jerry Rice
No Wayne Gretzky
No Jordan

At least I got to see it when it went down and I'm pretty thankful for it.

You saw Megatron. You witnessed the best.

[Hey Yo]

Indeed. It sucks watching inferior products but that's post 90's sports for ya.

No Jerry Rice
No Wayne Gretzky
No Jordan

At least I got to see it when it went down and I'm pretty thankful for it.
The Great One's best days were in the 80's

Try again

[ShawkFactory]

You saw Megatron. You witnessed the best.
And Brady. And Peyton.

[Straight_Ballin]

You saw Megatron. You witnessed the best.

Real talk! And he was actually made out of metal and not plastic like the toys of today. When the transformers movie came out I was willing to accept them making bumblebee as a camaro, but to make megaton and soundwave transform into jets and hearing the kids ooohs and ahhhhs in the theatre while watching all the adults roll their eyes was priceless.

I wish I could have seen Jim Brown. Can't even fathom what Cleveland was like when it was winning. What a time that must have been.

[senelcoolidge]

It's insane how Jordan used to dissect opposing teams when he went to the basket. I mean the paint was so crowded with trees and he could manipulate his body to the hoop. :bowdown: It's like day and night when compared to today. Everything is a wide open 3 or an open lane to the basket.

[fragokota]

OP, don't you ever get bored trying to prove that water is wet? Seriously...

[pauk]

YESSSSS 3baaaaaaaalll.... he was great..... he is the GOAT and will be that maybe forever....

Let it gooooo..... stop being insecure for no reason whatsoever.... start appreciating basketball instead, stop neglecting everybody just because they aint Jordan....

Be a basketball fan instead....

[CuterThanRubio]

This

No doubt there are still great stars today, but athletes from past eras had a different mindset all across.

It's also not nostalgia since most experts usually rank the 80-90s Stars amongst the best.

Even players that crossed that era and today usually state the same.

You truly are SLOW!

How old are most of these "experts"?

It's nostalgia, these guys refuse to believe that the thing they grew up enjoying wasn't the best, a very narrow minded and childish viewpoint.

I would like to throw some shots at weak ass Wayne Gretzky while we are here, goalie equipment was so small in his day, it was much easier to score, he's a little wuss who would get bumped off the puck if he was around now, Mario Lemieux was better than him by far, an actual beast with size and skills.

Randy Moss is a greater athlete than Jerry Rice too, Rice played with Montana for how many years? Overrated!

:hammerhead:

[Showtime80']

Cuter than Rubio, when something is BETTER it's just BETTER!!!

Go look at ANY of the documentaries or specials done on Isiah, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Olajuwon or ANY of the greats of the 1980's and hear the guys from the 50's, 60's and 70's absolutely IDOLIZE AND EXALT THOSE PLAYERS!!! They knew that what they were watching was something special and those players from the 80's played the game with a fundamental mastery and basketball IQ level similar to those of the 60's!

That IS NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!! And anybody that's watched basketball for more than 20+ years can see the decay in the quality of the game of basketball thanks to the over the top rule changes and the horrendous decay in fundamentals that has occurred in the 21st century!!!

When something better than the 80's comes along, people from ALL GENERATIONS will recognize it, IT JUST HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!!!

It took soccer 20+ years to find a talent similar to Pele in Maradona and it took them another 30+ to find a talent in the same breath as them with Ronaldo7/Messi and that's with that sport being the MOST POPULAR IN THE WORLD with entire countries sport's resources devoted to the sport!!!

It's going to take the NBA a little bit longer and with the pathetic draft class of 2016 I can't see it happening in very long while!

[CuterThanRubio]

Cuter than Rubio, when something is BETTER it's just BETTER!!!

Go look at ANY of the documentaries or specials done on Isiah, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Olajuwon or ANY of the greats of the 1980's and hear the guys from the 50's, 60's and 70's absolutely IDOLIZE AND EXALT THOSE PLAYERS!!! They knew that what they were watching was something special and those players from the 80's played the game with a fundamental mastery and basketball IQ level similar to those of the 60's!

That IS NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!! And anybody that's watched basketball for more than 20+ years can see the decay in the quality of the game of basketball thanks to the over the top rule changes and the horrendous decay in fundamentals that has occurred in the 21st century!!!

When something better than the 80's comes along, people from ALL GENERATIONS will recognize it, IT JUST HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!!!

It took soccer 20+ years to find a talent similar to Pele in Maradona and it took them another 30+ to find a talent in the same breath as them with Ronaldo7/Messi and that's with that sport being the MOST POPULAR IN THE WORLD with entire countries sport's resources devoted to the sport!!!

It's going to take the NBA a little bit longer and with the pathetic draft class of 2016 I can't see it happening in very long while!


So you agree that athletes today are superior?

You have openly recognized that soccer is better now than before, why not basketball?

You are blinded by nostalgia like the rest of these delusional slobs!


The talent pool is deeper and kids are getting access to professional grade training, why do you think Curry and Klay are so skilled? They mastered the fundamentals before the rest of their peers could dribble without looking at the ball, its not hard to understand.


There has been no decay, there have been various improvements, you really think that illegal defense and hand checking was necessary? ( If you have to hold onto someone to keep them from getting by you then you aren't a good defender)

80s and 90s basketball was much sloppier, wild scrums in the paint off fastbreak layup attempts and boring post up play

3ball>2ball

[90sgoat]

It took soccer 20+ years to find a talent similar to Pele in Maradona and it took them another 30+ to find a talent in the same breath as them with Ronaldo7/Messi and that's with that sport being the MOST POPULAR IN THE WORLD with entire countries sport's resources devoted to the sport!!!

It's going to take the NBA a little bit longer and with the pathetic draft class of 2016 I can't see it happening in very long while!

True, Maradona might still be considered the best ever though, since neither Ronaldo or Messi have won the World Cup.

If we're talking the best since Maradona, most people have Zinedine Zidane and put him right up there.

Messi/Ronaldo have never achieved the sheer dominance of Zidane. Messi have had some really good Argentina teams and could not win. France has not won a single thing since Zidane quit.

Soccer also suffers from 'new shiny thing' syndrome and I would honestly say prime Louis Figo was better than prime Ronaldo. Figo was covered with TWO defenders on EVERY play in his prime and he was a superior playmaker to Ronaldo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gx_4P6Ofeg

[Straight_Ballin]

True, Maradona might still be considered the best ever though, since neither Ronaldo or Messi have won the World Cup.

If we're talking the best since Maradona, most people have Zinedine Zidane and put him right up there.

Messi/Ronaldo have never achieved the sheer dominance of Zidane. Messi have had some really good Argentina teams and could not win. France has not won a single thing since Zidane quit.

Soccer also suffers from 'new shiny thing' syndrome and I would honestly say prime Louis Figo was better than prime Ronaldo.

How are any of those guys better than Pele? Doesn't he have like 3 FIFA world cups?

[Showtime80']

I said mentioned in the same breath!!! A lot different than being better, right know there is NOBODY CLEARLY BETTER than Pele, Maradona or the ORIGINAL Ronaldo!!! The Brazil national team of 1970 would run CIRCLES around the present day national team, same for the German team of 1960's and 70's!

The talent pool BS is a myth, youth participation for basketball reached it's ZENITH around the mid 80's and has continued to go down ever since. Today the AMERICAN TALENT pool has decreased and the only viable minor league system the NBA has ever had, NCAA Basketball, it's probably at it's worst period it HAS EVER HAD!!! Churning out RAW, DUMB, FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED ONE AND DONES!!!! That more than anything has RUINED THE QUALITY OF THE NBA!!!

And the international talent pool is vastly overrated. This year's all-star game was AN ALL AMERICAN AFFAIR and the last true international superstar was Dirk Nowitzky who was drafted back in the late 80's!!!

80's and EARLY 90'S basketball was FASTER, HIGHER SCORRING AND MORE EFFICIENT!!! Than the crap you see today even with the increase in 3 point shooting!!!

The NBA today has NO DOMINANT POST PLAYERS and no true PASS FIRST PG's, that's why it has resorted to jacking up ill-advised 3 point shots. The easiest ways to score on the half court and the fast break ARE GONE!!!

[CuterThanRubio]

I said mentioned in the same breath!!! A lot different than being better, right know there is NOBODY CLEARLY BETTER than Pele, Maradona or the ORIGINAL Ronaldo!!! The Brazil national team of 1970 would run CIRCLES around the present day national team, same for the German team of 1960's and 70's!

The talent pool BS is a myth, youth participation for basketball reached it's ZENITH around the mid 80's and has continued to go down ever since. Today the AMERICAN TALENT pool has decreased and the only viable minor league system the NBA has ever had, NCAA Basketball, it's probably at it's worst period it HAS EVER HAD!!! Churning out RAW, DUMB, FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED ONE AND DONES!!!! That more than anything has RUINED THE QUALITY OF THE NBA!!!

And the international talent pool is vastly overrated. This year's all-star game was AN ALL AMERICAN AFFAIR and the last true international superstar was Dirk Nowitzky who was drafted back in the late 80's!!!

80's and EARLY 90'S basketball was FASTER, HIGHER SCORRING AND MORE EFFICIENT!!! Than the crap you see today even with the increase in 3 point shooting!!!

The NBA today has NO DOMINANT POST PLAYERS and no true PASS FIRST PG's, that's why it has resorted to jacking up ill-advised 3 point shots. The easiest ways to score on the half court and the fast break ARE GONE!!!

Faster and higher scoring because the DEFENSE WAS TERRIBLE!


:coleman:

Read my username, best passer in the league, son!



I can't take you seriously!

[Hey Yo]

:oldlol:


Not surprised showtime80's, 90sgoat and Straight_ Altin' are Soccer fans.

[Hey Yo]

How are any of those guys better than Pele? Doesn't he have like 3 FIFA world cups?
How can Jordan be better than Russell? Doesn't he have 11 titles?

How can Fouts be better than Dilfer? Doesn't he have a SB ring?


Nice logic :cletus:

[90sgoat]

How are any of those guys better than Pele? Doesn't he have like 3 FIFA world cups?

Pele is sort of the Wilt or Russel of soccer, he played so far back no one remembers him and there isn't much video. The game was also waaaaay different, like with basketball, much slower, much less physical, much more room to operate.

Watch this guy too, Garincha, basically created the modern brazilian type of dribbling like with Ronaldinho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeYyx87NWrU

Pele would probably be just as good, but like Wilt/Russel, he was a pioneer so he didn't have other greats to build upon.

It's also more of a question of position, soccer fans generally place more value on the '10' position, the offensive midfielder who does not only score but also sets up his teammates like Laudrup, Zidane, Cruyf.

[90sgoat]

I said mentioned in the same breath!!! A lot different than being better, right know there is NOBODY CLEARLY BETTER than Pele, Maradona or the ORIGINAL Ronaldo!!! The Brazil national team of 1970 would run CIRCLES around the present day national team, same for the German team of 1960's and 70's!

The talent pool BS is a myth, youth participation for basketball reached it's ZENITH around the mid 80's and has continued to go down ever since. Today the AMERICAN TALENT pool has decreased and the only viable minor league system the NBA has ever had, NCAA Basketball, it's probably at it's worst period it HAS EVER HAD!!! Churning out RAW, DUMB, FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED ONE AND DONES!!!! That more than anything has RUINED THE QUALITY OF THE NBA!!!

And the international talent pool is vastly overrated. This year's all-star game was AN ALL AMERICAN AFFAIR and the last true international superstar was Dirk Nowitzky who was drafted back in the late 80's!!!

80's and EARLY 90'S basketball was FASTER, HIGHER SCORRING AND MORE EFFICIENT!!! Than the crap you see today even with the increase in 3 point shooting!!!

The NBA today has NO DOMINANT POST PLAYERS and no true PASS FIRST PG's, that's why it has resorted to jacking up ill-advised 3 point shots. The easiest ways to score on the half court and the fast break ARE GONE!!!

I've followed soccer since 1990 since before basktball (I am euro).

The best players I've seen is Zidane, pre-injury Ronaldo and young Romario. All of them better than current stars.

Ronaldo pre-injury was probably the highest peak I've seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx4F-texNeU

[3ball]

You have openly recognized that soccer is better now than before, why not basketball?



The list below shows that SG's and SF's from previous eras match today's era man-for-man and are more individually-unique and one-of-a-kind in their skill (not like today's 3-and-D robots)



...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook...... Penny Hardaway
Tracey McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Klay Thompson......... Reggie Miller


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Reggie Lewis, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



^^^^^ Remember, this is just the wing players - if we add the bigs, previous eras blow today's era to Mars

[90sgoat]

:oldlol:


Not surprised showtime80's, 90sgoat and Straight_ Altin' are Soccer fans.

I don't watch soccer anymore. The whole thing became useless when Champions League became a fixture with the same teams every year and all teams in all leagues began playing the same style with 4-5-1.

[3ball]

I've followed soccer since 1990 since before basktball (I am euro).

The best players I've seen is Zidane, pre-injury Ronaldo and young Romario. All of them better than current stars.

Ronaldo pre-injury was probably the highest peak I've seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx4F-texNeU
:applause:

[3ball]

The list below shows that SG's and SF's from previous eras match today's era man-for-man and are more individually-unique and one-of-a-kind in their skill (not like today's 3-and-D robots)



...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook...... Penny Hardaway
Tracey McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Klay Thompson......... Reggie Miller


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton, Reggie Lewis, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



^^^^^ Remember, this is just the wing players - if we add the bigs, previous eras blow today's era to Mars


what did i miss

[Showtime80']

So I guess defenses today have GONE BACK to being terrible since pace, ppg and FG% are WAAYY HIGHER than those of the late 90's and 2000's!!!!

The 1980's scores and pace were high because the LEAGUE WAS LOADED!!!! Almost every team in a 23 team league had solid low post scoring and solid pass first PG's that KNEW HOW TO QUATERBACK an offense both in the half court and in the fast break!

Things started to go downhill with the draft classes of the early to mid 90's with more and more guys leaving school earlier and focusing on ATHLETICISM instead of fundamentals, call it the "I wanna be like Mike" effect!!! Those 90's hip hop knuckle heads took turns getting their sh!t pushed in by the OLDER VERSIONS of Jordan, Scottie, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Drexler, Barkley and Ewing!

[3ball]

So you agree that athletes today are superior?


No - it takes much longer than just 50 years for material advances in human evolution to occur.

Other than the Jamaicans, the best sprinting speeds have been the same or within 1 tenth for 50+ years, maybe more.. The high jump record is the same for many decades too.

A good measure of athletic prowess is dunking from the ft line - players have been doing it since Earl Manigault in the 60's and Dr. J/David Thompson in the 70's.. In the 80's, Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler all dunked from the FT line (FROM the line, not in front), while Mike Conley dunked with 2 hands from the ft line - these are all available on youtube.






The talent pool is deeper and kids are getting access to professional grade training, why do you think Curry and Klay are so skilled?


Today's 3-pointers are mostly catch-and-shoot and wide open - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404693).

So why would you be happy that today's game has devolved into wide open, catch-and-shoots, when the game USED TO entail a much higher proportion of contested shots (2-pointers) that were scored in a far more diverse ways?

Since 2-pointers are more contested and scored in more ways, the eras that shot more 2-pointers produced better players - for example, Lowry was 10th in MVP voting this year, compared to Shaq in 1996 - there are many examples like this.






80s and 90s basketball was much sloppier, wild scrums in the paint off fastbreak layup attempts and boring post up play


That's the whole point - the game was much harder with defenders not spaced out like today's game.. Highlights and pretty plays were harder to come by.. But in today's spacing, open shots and in-stride layups are the standard because there's so much more room to operate (there's spacing).






3ball>2ball


Today's 3-point focus and wide open spacing allows players to succeed with less skill than previous eras that didn't have spacing to make it easier.

Most of Jordan's widely diverse skill and tough contested, dipsy-doo shots wouldn't be NECESSARY in today's game.. I much prefer an environment where that level of skill IS needed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QJwQZHNc4
.

[Marchesk]

You saw Megatron. You witnessed the best.

No, Rice was the best. He was voted as the greatest football player of all time. Megatron not even better than Moss.

[Sarcastic]

No, Rice was the best. He was voted as the greatest football player of all time. Megatron not even better than Moss.

A case can be made that Terrell Owens and Michael Irvin are even better than Johnson.

In a few years we'll put Beckham ahead of all though.

[3ball]

I personally can't rate Jordan as the best basketball player. Sorry, but anyone who would lose to Kevin Hart in a 3 point contest, especially as a guard, can't be considered the best.



Jordan was a far better jumpshooter than Curry inside 20 feet, on 6 times the volume - he was one of the best midrange shooters of all time:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga



Interestingly, good shooting isn't needed to be a top scorer in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) and 3-point percentage, yet they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had the goat midrange efficiency shown above.. Essentially, Jordan had the same athleticism as non-shooters Lebron/Westbrook, except he shot better than Steph Curry inside 20 feet.

[diamenz]

you era stans need to just realize that times were and are just different, not better. players are a product of their era.

[Round Mound]

So I guess defenses today have GONE BACK to being terrible since pace, ppg and FG% are WAAYY HIGHER than those of the late 90's and 2000's!!!!

The 1980's scores and pace were high because the LEAGUE WAS LOADED!!!! Almost every team in a 23 team league had solid low post scoring and solid pass first PG's that KNEW HOW TO QUATERBACK an offense both in the half court and in the fast break!

Things started to go downhill with the draft classes of the early to mid 90's with more and more guys leaving school earlier and focusing on ATHLETICISM instead of fundamentals, call it the "I wanna be like Mike" effect!!! Those 90's hip hop knuckle heads took turns getting their sh!t pushed in by the OLDER VERSIONS of Jordan, Scottie, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Drexler, Barkley and Ewing!


True :applause: