Curry better than any other perimeter player since MJ

[NBASTATMAN]

Say what you want but his defense is pretty good in my opinion and his offense is light years better than both Lebron and Kobe... MJ is his competition... :bowdown:

[inclinerator]

kobe is about 10x better

[Cold soul]

Lol laughable not even close Curry was above average in this series at best his teammate Klay outplayed him and saved there season game 6 if anything Curry is overrated. Curry does not belong in same sentence as Kobe.

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron isn't a perimeter player

He's every position

[NBASTATMAN]

kobe is about 10x better


IN YOUR DREAMS... Kid is playing with a sprained MCL and still is avg around 27 pts 6 reb and 6 assists and beating a prime KEVIN DURANT AND WESTBROOK... Kobe never beat anyone that good ..

[SouBeachTalents]

IN YOUR DREAMS... Kid is playing with a sprained MCL and still is avg around 27 pts 6 reb and 6 assists and beating a prime KEVIN DURANT AND WESTBROOK... Kobe never beat anyone that good ..

Duncan?

[NBASTATMAN]

Duncan?


Duncan is the best but he cannot guard Kobe... When Kobe played Durant and Westbrook they busted that arse...

[NBASTATMAN]

Curry is clowning people with a BAD KNEE... :bowdown:

[Cold soul]

Curry is mad overrated never been that impressed with his abilities outside his shooting and from 3 he does nothing else on elite level he can't impact the game like other greats before him or Lebron for that matter. Luckily Curry has great system built around him along with great team and bench.

[lakeshow1]

Say what you want but his defense is pretty good in my opinion and his offense is light years better than both Lebron and Kobe... MJ is his competition... :bowdown:

He wasn't the best perimeter player on his own team this series.

[plowking]

Curry is mad overrated never been that impressed with his abilities outside his shooting and from 3 he does nothing else on elite level he can't impact the game like other greats before him or Lebron for that matter.

He is an elite game manager and passer.

He also grabs 5 boards a game for a 6'3 guard. Pretty elite once again in that regard.

[Cold soul]

He is an elite game manager and passer.

He also grabs 5 boards a game for a 6'3 guard. Pretty elite once again in that regard.

Curry isn't passer or playmaker like Nash or even Kidd for that matter not even close he's average athlete at best good for him being best shooter ever.

[G0ATbe]

Currys better than MJ, not Kobe. Its fairly close though

[Bosnian Sajo]

IN YOUR DREAMS... Kid is playing with a sprained MCL and still is avg around 27 pts 6 reb and 6 assists and beating a prime KEVIN DURANT AND WESTBROOK... Kobe never beat anyone that good ..


Lmao, Kobe is renown for playing through injuries. Broken fingers/torn muscles, **** it.

[Jacks3]

Agreed. He's the best offensive player in history when healthy.

[Cold soul]

Agreed. He's the best offensive player in history when healthy.

Lol yeah right. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I really do hate Curry his stans overrate him like crazy to insane levels...

[West-Side]

Curry is a better shooter, but still not as dominant as peak Kobe/MJ. Curry with a torn MCL would still be better from the perimeter than LeBrick. Heck, even in a wheelchair he'd be better.

[Lamar Odumbb]

IN YOUR DREAMS... Kid is playing with a sprained MCL and still is avg around 27 pts 6 reb and 6 assists and beating a prime KEVIN DURANT AND WESTBROOK... Kobe never beat anyone that good ..

If Durant and Westbrook are so good how come they have 0 titles. In 2008, Kobe didnt have Bynum and Ariza due to injury which is 2/5 of the starting lineup and he still dethroned the 2007 champion Spurs.

[Cold soul]

Curry is a better shooter, but still not as dominant as peak Kobe/MJ. Curry with a torn MCL would still be better from the perimeter than LeBrick. Heck, even in a wheelchair he'd be better.

Agreed outside shooting Curry does nothing at all-time level kids these days..

[fragokota]

Easy there kid, you didn't even see MJ play... Don't get cocky now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I actually think he's the best player since peak Shaq.

Along with that, the best offensive player since Jordan and right there with Magic in-terms of offensive impact, IMO.

[theaussieguy]

lmao he just singlehandedly beat a team with two top 5 players hitting shots in the clutch whilst only 50% healthy and he still has haters? Thats when you know ur doing something right.

[NBASTATMAN]

Curry is a better shooter, but still not as dominant as peak Kobe/MJ. Curry with a torn MCL would still be better from the perimeter than LeBrick. Heck, even in a wheelchair he'd be better.


Stop putting Kobe with MJ... He is one of the greatest but NOT MJ LEVEL...


STEPH will probably have two titles as a leader of the team.. And has 2 MVPS ... Kobe won two titles as a leader and just one MVP... Kobe played with way more talent as well... Klay and Dray are not as talented as the players Kobe won titles with EITHER....

[NBASTATMAN]

If Durant and Westbrook are so good how come they have 0 titles. In 2008, Kobe didnt have Bynum and Ariza due to injury which is 2/5 of the starting lineup and he still dethroned the 2007 champion Spurs.



ODUMB DUMB SPurs had injuries to Manu who was either their second or third best player... Hard to win with a injury to one of your best players...

[Cold soul]

Stop putting Kobe with MJ... He is one of the greatest but NOT MJ LEVEL...


STEPH will probably have two titles as a leader of the team.. And has 2 MVPS ... Kobe won two titles as a leader and just one MVP... Kobe played with way more talent as well... Klay and Dray are not as talented as the players Kobe won titles with EITHER....

Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe only have one MVP reward and who gives a shit? It's media driven award this era is super weak as far as superstar players go Curry likely never wins one in either 90's or 00's.

[NBASTATMAN]

lmao he just singlehandedly beat a team with two top 5 players hitting shots in the clutch whilst only 50% healthy and he still has haters? Thats when you know ur doing something right.



THIS.... :cheers:


GUY IS AMAZING CANT EVEN HATE ON HIM... Dude is playing with A BAD KNEE TOO...

[STATUTORY]

certainly better than lebron ever was

[NBASTATMAN]

Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe only have one MVP reward and who gives a shit? It's media driven award this era is super weak as far as superstar players go Curry likely never wins one in either 90's or 00's.


This kid wins in any era besides the hand check era which would hurt him...

[Cold soul]

Stop putting Kobe with MJ... He is one of the greatest but NOT MJ LEVEL...


STEPH will probably have two titles as a leader of the team.. And has 2 MVPS ... Kobe won two titles as a leader and just one MVP... Kobe played with way more talent as well... Klay and Dray are not as talented as the players Kobe won titles with EITHER....

Curry has no case or business being mentioned in same breath as Kobe let alone Jordan.

[Smoke117]

Curry isn't even close to CP3 before he hurt his knee...:facepalm :roll:

[Cold soul]

This kid wins in any era besides the hand check era which would hurt him...

No he does not without having loaded team like Warriors sorry but it isn't happening.

[lakeshow1]

lmao he just singlehandedly beat a team with two top 5 players hitting shots in the clutch whilst only 50% healthy and he still has haters? Thats when you know ur doing something right.

:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

I actually think he's the best player since peak Shaq.
:biggums:

Player?

Better than LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Duncan and KG?! Really ... Some people are just getting drunk off this guy's koolaid.

[NBASTATMAN]

No he does not without having loaded team like Warriors sorry but it isn't happening.


I can only gauge his ability with the team he has.. I think Lebron probably means more to his team but Curry is the finisher Lebron can only dream to be

[Cold soul]

:biggums:

Player?

Better than LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Duncan and KG?! Really ... Some people are just getting drunk off this guy's koolaid.

It's pretty damn sad if they believe that garbage.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

Player?

Better than LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Duncan and KG?! Really ... Some people are just getting drunk off this guy's koolaid.

I don't think people realize just how much impact dude has on offense. Offensively, he's on Magic's level and there's a plethora of statistical data to back that up.

He's a net plus on defense too so I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. :confusedshrug: Y'all need to recognize greatness.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't think people realize just how much impact dude has on offense. Offensively, he's on Magic's level and there's a plethora of statistical data to back that up.

He's a net plus on defense too so I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. :confusedshrug: Y'all need to recognize greatness.
Where did I say he isn't great? Or that I'm not comprehending his gravity offensively? I'm not a prisoner of the moment either.

Two seasons, this season in particular, don't out weigh those other guys decades level of MVP caliber dominance.

[Young X]

:biggums:

Player?

Better than LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Duncan and KG?! Really ... Some people are just getting drunk off this guy's koolaid.Nah, he's not better than those guys man. Those guys played at a high level on offense and defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Where did I say he isn't great?

Two seasons don't out weigh those other guys decades level of MVP caliber dominance.

Dude just had an EPIC game 7 after being down 3-1, a great all-around series, and was clutch as f*ck throughout... All of this while coming off arguably the best offensive season since peak Jordan (statistically).

What I'm saying is you need to recognize just how great he is, and I'm not talking about career achievements.

[Cold soul]

Nah, he's not better than those guys man.

You got that right. :applause:

[NBAGOAT]

I don't think people realize just how much impact dude has on offense. Offensively, he's on Magic's level and there's a plethora of statistical data to back that up.

He's a net plus on defense too so I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. :confusedshrug: Y'all need to recognize greatness.

not sure if that's enough to be better than Lebron however(have a top 5 peak for him). Agree on the offensive impact however. Sounds ridiculous but yea i have him even over KG or Duncan.

Edit: I'm not sure if he has quite Magic's impact on offense since I've heard decent arguments for Magic being the best offensive player of all time.

[Cold soul]

Dude just had an EPIC game 7 after being down 3-1, a great all-around series, and was clutch as f*ck throughout... All of this while coming off arguably the best offensive season since peak Jordan (statistically).

What I'm saying is you need to recognize just how great he is, and I'm not talking about career achievements.

Curry was NOT great throughout series he has maybe two great games others were bad and average at best in game 6 he was no show until the end luckily Klay saved his ass.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Curry was NOT great throughout series he has maybe two great games others were bad and average at best in game 6 he was no show until the end luckily Klay saved his ass.

Not including this game, he was averaging ~27/7/6 on 59%TS.

Look at the clutch plays he made on both ends and the job he did on Westbrook defensively. Steph definitely had a great all-around series. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Where did I say he isn't great? Or that I'm not comprehending his gravity offensively? I'm not a prisoner of the moment either.

Two seasons, this season in particular, don't out weigh those other guys decades level of MVP caliber dominance.


Yup.

kuniva, you my boy, but I gotta agree with Swish on this. Steph's great offensively, of course, but he's just so-so on the other side of the ball, and is no where near the playmaker Magic was. And like Swish said, he's only been on this level really the last two years. If he keeps this up for like 5 or 6 more years, then I can see putting him up with those players. And he's gotta be great in the Finals. Last year, he wasn't.

Clock's ticking now.

[NBAGOAT]

Nah, he's not better than those guys man. Those guys played at a high level on offense and defense.

however curry's quite a bit better than garnett and duncan on offense(no disrespect to either), imo clearly better than wade and kobe, and even a good argument for being better on offense than 13 Lebron. Yea he's the worst defender out of all these guys but he's no Nash.

[Bankaii]

There's some dumb posters ITT, but it's the usual ones.

Curry is not on the same level as Lebron, Kobe, and maybe even Wade in terms of impact. The ability to straight up put a team on your back and carry them to victory.
He gets going only when the team has a good flow and spacing.

Put Kobe on the 2006 Lakers and they miss the playoffs.
Put him on the 2013 Heat and they dont win a ring.

[Straight_Ballin]

I don't think people realize just how much impact dude has on offense. Offensively, he's on Magic's level and there's a plethora of statistical data to back that up.

He's a net plus on defense too so I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. :confusedshrug: Y'all need to recognize greatness.

I'm seeing a guy that is shooting with defenders draped all over him with a kunt hair worth of daylight. You make some you miss some, but made shots are worth the 3. Miss 5 and make 5 and you get 15 points. Miss 5 and make 5 two point shots and you get 10 points. On top that, he got Klay doing the same shit, making shots with defenders all up in their shit.

This is greatness but it's not MJ level greatness.

Only a backcourt of Dumars/Zeke or Paxton/MJ is better.

[tpols]

There's some dumb posters ITT, but it's the usual ones.

Curry is not on the same level as Lebron, Kobe, and maybe even Wade in terms of impact. The ability to straight up put a team on your back and carry them to victory.
He gets going only when the team has a good flow and spacing.

Put Kobe on the 2006 Lakers and they miss the playoffs.
Put him on the 2013 Heat and they dont win a ring.


it's better to be a GOAT level addition to an already great team and not as good a one man army, than the other way around.

one man armies never win anyway.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yup.

kuniva, you my boy, but I gotta agree with Swish on this. Steph's great offensively, of course, but he's just so-so on the other side of the ball, and is no where near the playmaker Magic was. And like Swish said, he's only been on this level really the last two years. If he keeps this up for like 5 or 6 more years, then I can see putting him up with those players. And he's gotta be great in the Finals. Last year, he wasn't.

Clock's ticking now.

Damn. Guess we're watching two different games fellas.

I can respect that you guys wanna see him do more, but its not even about jumping on that gravy train.

I never gave peak LeBron the praise I'm giving Curry. To me Lebron's jack of all trade skillset was always flawed. All-time great, but the intangibles aren't there IMO.

Steph is the REAL deal - and has the offensive numbers to show for it.


There's some dumb posters ITT, but it's the usual ones.

Curry is not on the same level as Lebron, Kobe, and maybe even Wade in terms of impact. The ability to straight up put a team on your back and carry them to victory.
He gets going only when the team has a good flow and spacing.

That's great and all, but here's the problem.

Hard data suggests everything you just uttered...is wrong.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm seeing a guy that is shooting with defenders draped all over him with a kunt hair worth of daylight. You make some you miss some, but made shots are worth the 3. Miss 5 and make 5 and you get 15 points. Miss 5 and make 5 two point shots and you get 10 points. On top that, he got Klay doing the same shit, making shots with defenders all up in their shit.

This is greatness but it's not MJ level greatness.

Only a backcourt of Dumars/Zeke or Paxton/MJ is better.

MJ was definitely better.

I wouldn't be so foolish to claim otherwise. I'd take Kareem, Magic and possibly a few others over Curry as well.

[juju151111]

I'm seeing a guy that is shooting with defenders draped all over him with a kunt hair worth of daylight. You make some you miss some, but made shots are worth the 3. Miss 5 and make 5 and you get 15 points. Miss 5 and make 5 two point shots and you get 10 points. On top that, he got Klay doing the same shit, making shots with defenders all up in their shit.

This is greatness but it's not MJ level greatness.

Only a backcourt of Dumars/Zeke or Paxton/MJ is better.
Curry/Klay>>Zeke/Dumars

[NBAGOAT]

Yup.

kuniva, you my boy, but I gotta agree with Swish on this. Steph's great offensively, of course, but he's just so-so on the other side of the ball, and is no where near the playmaker Magic was. And like Swish said, he's only been on this level really the last two years. If he keeps this up for like 5 or 6 more years, then I can see putting him up with those players. And he's gotta be great in the Finals. Last year, he wasn't.

Clock's ticking now.

magic's so so on the other side of the ball too and is not nearly the shooter or scorer Curry is(even though some of that was by choice). Ofc Curry isn't up there with those other guys in all time rankings but he's up there if we're talking 1 year of play. For example, I have no problem saying Bill Walton's peak is right up there with the other great centers and he had like 2 great years.

[Bankaii]

it's better to be a GOAT level addition to an already great team and not as good a one man army, than the other way around.

one man armies never win anyway.
That makes no sense. My point is that Curry is great on a great team. But when that team isn't playing great his impact decreases and he isn't GOAT level.
While Lebron/Kobe can have a GOAT level impact on a great OR mediocre team.

And your one man army argument is wrong. Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, 06 Wade, etc


That's great and all, but here's the problem.

Hard data suggests everything you just uttered...is wrong.
Care to post this data?
Data also suggests that his team would still be top 5 without him too.

[TommyGriffin]

There's some dumb posters ITT, but it's the usual ones.

Curry is not on the same level as Lebron, Kobe, and maybe even Wade in terms of impact. The ability to straight up put a team on your back and carry them to victory.
He gets going only when the team has a good flow and spacing.

Put Kobe on the 2006 Lakers and they miss the playoffs.
Put him on the 2013 Heat and they dont win a ring.

Curry got you shook. :oldlol:

UMVP playing like the UMVP with both the season and his legacy on the line. 36/8/5 on 54 percent shooting in a game 7 to make the Finals. :applause:

[tpols]

While Lebron/Kobe can have a GOAT level impact on a great OR mediocre team.



just not true at all.. especially in bran's case where on great teams he marginalizes all teammates whose strength isnt shooting the ball.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Only player I think Curry is better than is CP3 (minus passing skills, and one on one defense), and he MAYBE just as good as prime Nate Archibald, prime Isiah Thomas, and prime Magic Johnson, and prime Gary Payton.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That makes no sense. My point is that Curry is great on a great team. But when that team isn't playing great his impact decreases and he isn't GOAT level.
While Lebron/Kobe can have a GOAT level impact on a great OR mediocre team.

And your one man army argument is wrong. Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, 06 Wade, etc


Care to post this data?
Data also suggests that his team would still be top 5 without him too.

Highest VORP (which is value over replacement player, so no, data does not suggest his team would be top 5 without him, and by the off chance it did, the sample would be too small anyway), highest BPM (box-score plus minus), RPM (real plus minus), PER (player efficiency rating), and the highest TS% in the LEAGUE while leading his team to the best record in NBA history...never mind shattering all the modern teams' efficiency records.

I know you're a LeBron guy, so please tell us which season, offensively, he has produced on this level.

[funnystuff]

Dude just had an EPIC game 7 after being down 3-1, a great all-around series, and was clutch as f*ck throughout... All of this while coming off arguably the best offensive season since peak Jordan (statistically).

What I'm saying is you need to recognize just how great he is, and I'm not talking about career achievements.
Did you even watch the series? Be honest. Or are you talking about another series?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Did you even watch the series? Be honest. Or are you talking about another series?

Uh oh ...

Here come the alts. :oldlol:

[funnystuff]

Uh oh ...

Here come the alts. :oldlol:
Haven't been posted here since last finals. On a real note you did say some dumb shit in this thread.


How many of those greats you named had stats fall off from regular season to playoffs? Curry shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph as those men.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Haven't been posted here since last finals. On a real note you did say some dumb shit in this thread.

I literally have no idea who you are, so I wouldn't have noticed anyway.

But apparently using facts on here to back up my posts = "dumb". You alts are clueless p*ssies. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

LOL, business just picked up. :oldlol:

[jstern]

I feel Kobe was better. A player like Kobe could produce in any era, due to having more skills, more ways to create shots. Curry, though being the greatest shooter ever, and playing with the current rules gives him the significant advantage in this era. Curry > Kobe in this era with the team he has, but Kobe > Curry as a basketball player.

[Rocketswin2013]

yeah, why not.

[3ball]

.
Jordan had superior per POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), which is more important than Curry's shooting efficiency - shooting efficiency FALLS UNDER THE UMBRELLA of per-possession efficiency.. Jordan's higher per possession efficiency was due to better midrange (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26) efficiency, and far less turnovers.

Jordan's higher efficiency is remarkable considering he carried a bigger load: he produced a higher proportion of his team's points and assists with far less turnovers, while also carrying a bigger load on defense.

Jordan was superior on both ends, even though Curry's teammates spaced the floor for him, and Jordan's didn't - Jordan's Bulls only attempted 5 threes per game in 1991, compared to 25 per game for today's teams (30 per game for the Warriors and Cavs).. Accordingly, his stats would explode in today's spaced-out game.

Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), whereas he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12373019&postcount=26).. Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism with better jumpshooting than Curry inside 20 feet.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Warriors won 73 games and made it back to the finals because they have a former NBA Allstar starter and former go to guy type of player coming off the bench. People stay ignoring this fact.:oldlol:

[MiseryCityTexas]

People also want to ignore the fact that Bogut was a former top ten NBA center in the league of his era when he was in his absolute prime before becoming a role player with the Warriors. Remember when Bogut and Brandon Jennings double handedly took the Bucks to the play-offs almost by themselves with little help in a shitty eastern conference??:oldlol:

[plowking]

Yup.

kuniva, you my boy, but I gotta agree with Swish on this. Steph's great offensively, of course, but he's just so-so on the other side of the ball, and is no where near the playmaker Magic was. And like Swish said, he's only been on this level really the last two years. If he keeps this up for like 5 or 6 more years, then I can see putting him up with those players. And he's gotta be great in the Finals. Last year, he wasn't.

Clock's ticking now.

He has had 3 great seasons, and 1 good one.

His peak level of play is on the Jordan, Shaq, Bron level right now.

Playmaker? He makes plays. He puts the ball in a 63% TS rate. He is the most efficient volume scorer ever. He can pass the ball, but it is simply more efficient for him to just score. He has put up 9apg before.

Some of you are blinded by his shooting and scoring to see how great a passer he is. Much like how it took several years for Ginobili to get his due on passing because he wasn't putting up high assist numbers. On pure ability, he is a top 5 passer in the league, probably higher.

[3ball]

His peak level of play is on the Jordan, Shaq, Bron level right now.


Lebron isn't on Jordan's level.. Jordan scored 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - these things are more important and control the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.

Furthermore, Lebron has entire playoff runs where he isn't the team's scoring leader - otoh, Jordan led his team in scoring for every series of his career, by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. No other all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan - Jordan was on another level.

Ultimately, Lebron can't match Jordan's combination of goat scoring load, team-leading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing, and best-ever defense at his position.

[NBAGOAT]

Lebron isn't on Jordan's level.. Jordan scored 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - these things are more important and control the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.

Furthermore, Lebron has entire playoff runs where he isn't the team's scoring leader - otoh, Jordan led his team in scoring for every series of his career, by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920).. No other all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan - Jordan was on another level.

Ultimately, Lebron can't match Jordan's combination of goat scoring load, team-leading (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) passing, and best-ever defense at his position.

shaq is on the level of jordan at least. DPOY level defense as a rim protector means he impacted the game more defensively and his offense is close to goat level too.

[3ball]

DPOY level defense as a rim protector means he impacted the game more defensively and his offense is close to goat level too.


Shaq was never a DPOY-level defender - he never even made 1st team all-defense and was considered a massive underachiever defensively for nearly his entire career.





Shaq impacted the game more defensively


Jordan had the greater defensive impact because there's an important concept to consider when comparing the defensive impact of guards to big men that most people aren't aware of:

Teams realize no ADVANTAGE from a center's defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center - this goes for all positions.

Accordingly, Shaq provided less defensive impact to his team than Jordan, since his impact was cancelled out by his opposing matchup more than Jordan's was - Jordan's defensive impact ranked higher among SG's (#1 all-time) than Shaq ranked among Centers (sometimes not even top 10), so Jordan provided his team with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over his matchup, than Shaq had over his.

To illustrate, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan defensive box score comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????.. Obviously, it was Jordan - again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

[NBAGOAT]

Shaq was never a DPOY-level defender - he never even made 1st team all-defense and was considered a massive underachiever defensively for nearly his entire career.



Jordan had the greater defensive impact because there's an important concept to consider when comparing the defensive impact of guards to big men that most people aren't aware of:

Teams realize no ADVANTAGE from a center's defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center - this goes for all positions.

Accordingly, Shaq provided less defensive impact to his team than Jordan, since his impact was cancelled out by his opposing matchup more than Jordan's was - Jordan's defensive impact ranked higher among SG's (#1 all-time) than Shaq ranked among Centers (sometimes not even top 10), so Jordan provided his team with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over his matchup, than Shaq had over his.

To illustrate, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan defensive box score comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????.. Obviously, it was Jordan - again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

:oldlol: i'm talking about Shaq at his best in 2000 you dimwit when his dbpm was 3.5( a number jordan never even approached). No one's arguing Shaq had a better career than Jordan, just that his peak is up there with Jordan's peak.

[3ball]

i'm talking about Shaq when his dbpm was 3.5 ( a number jordan never even approached).


You missed the point - Shaq's 3.5 is often erased by an opposing center with a HIGHER number.. Shaq gives his team no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is erased by the opposing team's center.

That happened to Jordan less often, since Jordan was the best defender at his position.





No one's arguing Shaq had a better career than Jordan, just that his peak is up there with Jordan's peak.



Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


MJ was more dominant - irrefutable stats.
.

[Bankaii]

just not true at all.. especially in bran's case where on great teams he marginalizes all teammates whose strength isnt shooting the ball.
Im done talking about anything Lebron related with you. You're delusional when it comes to him.

That statement is just moronic. Wade's production in 2011 was just as good as 2010. And Kyrie had his best season the year Lebron joined.

Stop deflecting and address the topic at hand.


Highest VORP (which is value over replacement player, so no, data does not suggest his team would be top 5 without him, and by the off chance it did, the sample would be too small anyway), highest BPM (box-score plus minus), RPM (real plus minus), PER (player efficiency rating), and the highest TS% in the LEAGUE while leading his team to the best record in NBA history...never mind shattering all the modern teams' efficiency records.

I know you're a LeBron guy, so please tell us which season, offensively, he has produced on this level.
You're only proving my point. He achieved those accomplishments due to the system implemented in GSW as well as there top notch offensive production.

I know there's no way to find these stats, but go back and watch games where Klay/Dray or GS as a whole were struggling. Curry looked absolutely normal.
Hell, it's been obvious this postseason that when his jumper doesn't fall he has nothing else to offer.

His team's postseason success without him even being on the court in the supposed "greatest conference of all time" should be example enough.
Curry simply doesn't have the type of impact to lead a mediocre team to greatness. He needs an already great team to be great himself.

In terms of pure statistical domination, 2009 Lebron had a higher PER, win share, VOPR, +/-, etc.
in terms of overall impact on the game and offensive efficiency/dominance, 2009, 2012, and to a lesser degree maybe 2013 are all on that level if the 1st 2 aren't better.
This isn't even including the playoffs, where Lebron was clearly superior in those respective seasons.

[NBAGOAT]

You missed the point - Shaq's 3.5 is often erased by an opposing center with a HIGHER number.. Shaq gives his team no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is erased by the opposing team's center.

That happened to Shaq more often than it happened to Jordan, since Jordan was the best defender at his position.




Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')



Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


MJ was more dominant - irrefutable stats.
.

we're talking about one year peaks so please don't deflect look at a 3 year prime. In 00, what you said just wasn't true. There were only 3 guys who were arguably as good defensively Drob, Mourning and Mutombo and Shaq was a legitimate DPOY candidate coming in 2nd. Great advanced numbers across the board and anchored the best defense in the league. Very few guys had higher than a 3.5 who played legitimate minutes. Your terrible logic can be used to discredit any great defensive center in the 90's and argue they weren't as impactul as Jordan on defense which is absurd :facepalm

[3ball]

That statement is just moronic.



No it isn't - Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

[3ball]

.
Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Im done talking about anything Lebron related with you. You're delusional when it comes to him

You're only proving my point. He achieved those accomplishments due to the system implemented in GSW as well as there top notch offensive production.

But that doesn't prove your point at all.

It actually reinforces mine.

Most of the stats I posted are adjusted for the individual and have VERY little to do with team play (RPM especially).


I know there's no way to find these stats, but go back and watch games where Klay/Dray or GS as a whole were struggling. Curry looked absolutely normal.
Hell, it's been obvious this postseason that when his jumper doesn't fall he has nothing else to offer.

Not even remotely true.

Dude averages roughly 6 boards and 6 assists in these playoffs, and just came off a series where he put up ~28/7/7 on 61%TS yet posters still think he was "off". :oldlol:

The guy is also a net plus on the defensive end (RPM, so in other words, not a TEAM stat) while grabbing a few steals a game.

You people have ridiculous expectations and hold him to standards you don't apply with other players.


Curry simply doesn't have the type of impact to lead a mediocre team to greatness.

What? Steph was already one of the most efficient players, and called one of the best PGs in the league back in 2014. His team? Nowhere near as "stacked" and dude still led them to the postseason in a great conference. :confusedshrug:



In terms of pure statistical domination, 2009 Lebron had a higher PER, win share, VOPR, +/-, etc.

in terms of overall impact on the game and offensive efficiency/dominance, 2009, 2012, and to a lesser degree maybe 2013 are all on that level if the 1st 2 aren't better.

How do you figure when Steph led the league in all those categories AT THE SAME TIME while also having the games BEST shooting percentage.


This isn't even including the playoffs, where Lebron was clearly superior in those respective seasons.

I can agree there, at least from on overall standpoint.

Another great series in the finals for Curry will be enough to catapult him, though. His year in totality will have either matched or surprassed LeBron...assuming he plays great here.

[Bankaii]

But that doesn't prove your point at all.

It actually reinforces mine.

Most of the stats I posted are adjusted for the individual and have VERY little to do with team play (RPM especially).
That especially helps my point.
Curry hasn't done anything near what he did this season and that due to the fact that he's never had a team as great as this current one.

Steph as a player really hasn't evolved that much from 2015, in fact his run in last year's playoffs is arguably better than this year. Two things changed, the GSW as a TEAM got better which helped open up Steph and take weight off of him and his volume/dominance of the ball have increased and that explains his increase as stats.


Not even remotely true.

Dude averages roughly 6 boards and 6 assists in these playoffs, and just came off a series where he put up ~28/7/7 on 61%TS yet posters still think he was "off". :oldlol:

The guy is also a net plus on the defensive end (RPM, so in other words, not a TEAM stat) while grabbing a few steals a game.

You people have ridiculous expectations and hold him to standards you don't apply with other players.
I "hold" Lebron to the same standards. But he hasn't had a jumper in 2 years and is still arguably the best player in the world. He's been the best passer in the playoffs with high rebounds and his defense has been great in the playoffs so far.

Dude it's been shown multiple times throughout the playoffs alone. When his 3pt shot isn't falling, his assists become lower than his turnovers and he becomes a negative on the court. This thought has been said by many (non-trolling) posters on here and professional analysts so I'm not just making it up.

And we're just going to have to disagree on defense. Dude is average. He has to be hidden on that side of the court every game and even this series he couldn't be hidden because Waiters/Roberson had big games on him ffs lol.



What? Steph was already one of the most efficient players, and called one of the best PGs in the league back in 2014. His team? Nowhere near as "stacked" and dude still led them to the postseason in a great conference. :confusedshrug:
They weren't stacked but they were definitely a solid enough team to make the playoffs.
Klay was still a sniper and putting up 18 points on good effeciency, David Lee was an allstar averaging a double double, Iggy was a veteran that led a team to a .500 record, etc.

That's still very good supporting cast. And even then he was only a good player. His greatness increased as his teammates became better overall players.

Be honest with yourself. Do you think Steph could've led the 06 Lakers to the playoffs like Kobe, or the 07 Cavs to the Finals like Lebron?




How do you figure when Steph led the league in all those categories AT THE SAME TIME while also having the games BEST shooting percentage.
So did Lebron. In 2009 he was first in win shares, 1st in offensive Winn share, 2nd in defensive win shares, 1st in BPM, 1st in VOPR, and 1st in PER.
The only thing is he beats 2016 Curry in all of these stats and was a complete 2-way player, all while being on a mediocre/average team.



I can agree there, at least from on overall standpoint.

Another great series in the finals for Curry will be enough to catapult him, though. His year in totality will have either matched or surprassed LeBron...assuming he plays great here.
I can agree IF he has a great Finals. If he did what he did last year that will hurt his overall greatness for this year.

[juju151111]

That especially helps my point.
Curry hasn't done anything near what he did this season and that due to the fact that he's never had a team as great as this current one.

Steph as a player really hasn't evolved that much from 2015, in fact his run in last year's playoffs is arguably better than this year. Two things changed, the GSW as a TEAM got better which helped open up Steph and take weight off of him and his volume/dominance of the ball have increased and that explains his increase as stats.


I "hold" Lebron to the same standards. But he hasn't had a jumper in 2 years and is still arguably the best player in the world. He's been the best passer in the playoffs with high rebounds and his defense has been great in the playoffs so far.

Dude it's been shown multiple times throughout the playoffs alone. When his 3pt shot isn't falling, his assists become lower than his turnovers and he becomes a negative on the court. This thought has been said by many (non-trolling) posters on here and professional analysts so I'm not just making it up.

And we're just going to have to disagree on defense. Dude is average. He has to be hidden on that side of the court every game and even this series he couldn't be hidden because Waiters/Roberson had big games on him ffs lol.



They weren't stacked but they were definitely a solid enough team to make the playoffs.
Klay was still a sniper and putting up 18 points on good effeciency, David Lee was an allstar averaging a double double, Iggy was a veteran that led a team to a .500 record, etc.

That's still very good supporting cast. And even then he was only a good player. His greatness increased as his teammates became better overall players.

Be honest with yourself. Do you think Steph could've led the 06 Lakers to the playoffs like Kobe, or the 07 Cavs to the Finals like Lebron?




So did Lebron. In 2009 he was first in win shares, 1st in offensive Winn share, 2nd in defensive win shares, 1st in BPM, 1st in VOPR, and 1st in PER.
The only thing is he beats 2016 Curry in all of these stats and was a complete 2-way player, all while being on a mediocre/average team.



I can agree IF he has a great Finals. If he did what he did last year that will hurt his overall greatness for this year.
Actually its dur to the fact Curry was out for two weeks with knee and ankle injures. He also had a elbow. Thats the only reason last year is better then this year playoffs. Steph is definitely better then last season. He got injured throughout the playoffs. Last year he was fully healthy

[Hey Yo]

Lmao, Kobe is renown for playing through injuries. Broken fingers/torn muscles, **** it.
allegedly....

[Hey Yo]

Actually its dur to the fact Curry was out for two weeks with knee and ankle injures. He also had a elbow. Thats the only reason last year is better then this year playoffs. Steph is definitely better then last season. He got injured throughout the playoffs. Last year he was fully healthy
Both Kerr and Curry himself said he is fine.

No excuses.

[juju151111]

Both Kerr and Curry himself said he is fine.

No excuses.
Of course players are going to say that. He not lebron with elbowgate in 10. Curry isn't a little bitch that wants a build in excuse if he lose. If he loses he will say the other team was better simple.

[Hey Yo]

Of course players are going to say that. He not lebron with elbowgate in 10. Curry isn't a little bitch that wants a build in excuse if he lose. If he loses he will say the other team was better simple.
When did LeBron say his elbow injury was the direct reason they lost?

link?

[Bankaii]

Actually its dur to the fact Curry was out for two weeks with knee and ankle injures. He also had a elbow. Thats the only reason last year is better then this year playoffs. Steph is definitely better then last season. He got injured throughout the playoffs. Last year he was fully healthy
I'm not taking anyone that uses the injury excuse seriously.

All players have nagging injuries, they play through it.
On top of the fact the medical professionals, Kerr, and Curry all said he was fine.

When he has a bad game he's hurt but time he has a good game he's the second coming of Jesus.
Just shut up if you have nothing logical to say.

[juju151111]

When did LeBron say his elbow injury was the direct reason they lost?

link?
He didn't say that. He kept bringing it up. Soon has they ask Curry about it. Im fine and im playing he never brought it up unless they asked about it. Had the ankle/elbow injures its the samething. Also i was refuting a point that Steph Curry is the same has last year which is nonsense. Clearly way more bang up this playoffs then last year.

[juju151111]

I'm not taking anyone that uses the injury excuse seriously.

All players have nagging injuries, they play through it.
On top of the fact the medical professionals, Kerr, and Curry all said he was fine.

When he has a bad game he's hurt but time he has a good game he's the second coming of Jesus.
Just shut up if you have nothing logical to say.
This wasn't no nagging injury he was out 2 weeks and my point was this year he is clearly more banged up so of course 15 Curry would look slightly better. Cirry said he was fine right after the injury and said he wanted to play. The medical staff told him not too. Players say they are fine all the time. Who is saying anything about bad games or good games. You claimed Steph Curry didnt get better and you basing this off of the playoffs. My point is he way more banged up then 15playoffs. Compare 15 Curry all 82 game woth 16 Curry.

[Hey Yo]

He didn't say that. He kept bringing it up. Soon has they ask Curry about it. Im fine and im playing he never brought it up unless they asked about it. Had the ankle/elbow injures its the samething. Also i was refuting a point that Steph Curry is the same has last year which is nonsense. Clearly way more bang up this playoffs then last year.
But if plays great one game and sub standard the next...people can't blame it on alleged injuries for the bad game or bad the first 3 quarters.

[Hey Yo]

FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8, 25.1%.


Where's Pippen's 93'-94 season? You know.... the year he put up his best statistical season of his career which so happen to be w/o MJ

[bond10]

Where's Pippen's 93'-94 season? You know.... the year he put up his best statistical season of his career which so happen to be w/o MJ

1 ppg and 1 board higher than his usual averages....not a suddenly great statistical season at all...

[juju151111]

But if plays great one game and sub standard the next...people can't blame it on alleged injuries for the bad game or bad the first 3 quarters.
You can be injured and still have good game. Its just harder to do. Isiah scared 25 points hopping around like a frog after hirting his leg. Im not saying all that. This guy tried to use the playoffs has the reason he thinks Steph didn't improve from last year. Steph is way more bang up this year. He doesn

[Hey Yo]

1 ppg and 1 board higher than his usual averages....not a suddenly great statistical season at all...
His usual averages??

Doesn't change the fact that his best statistical season was w/o MJ.

Why do you think 3-ball skipped that year? Maybe because it hurts his point?

[Dro]

I actually think he's the best player since peak Shaq.

Along with that, the best offensive player since Jordan and right there with Magic in-terms of offensive impact, IMO.
I can't really disagree with this...:confusedshrug:

[Bankaii]

This wasn't no nagging injury he was out 2 weeks and my point was this year he is clearly more banged up so of course 15 Curry would look slightly better. Cirry said he was fine right after the injury and said he wanted to play. The medical staff told him not too. Players say they are fine all the time. Who is saying anything about bad games or good games. You claimed Steph Curry didnt get better and you basing this off of the playoffs. My point is he way more banged up then 15playoffs. Compare 15 Curry all 82 game woth 16 Curry.
Again, during the Thunder series doctors said he was fine. He was more than cleared to play.

Why did this injury excuse not pop up when he came in and had a historic game his first game back?

And he surely didn't look injured when he was doing "360" dunks and showboating pre-game. Or stringing together a chain of crossovers on Adams/Ibaka. Just stop with the excuses, he was just fine.

His injury was not a tear, it was a sprain, that medically can be recovered in a week, especially when he has the best training staff in the world.

[juju151111]

Again, during the Thunder series doctors said he was fine. He was more than cleared to play.

Why did this injury excuse not pop up when he came in and had a historic game his first game back?

And he surely didn't look injured when he was doing "360" dunks and showboating pre-game. Or stringing together a chain of crossovers on Adams/Ibaka. Just stop with the excuses, he was just fine.

His injury was not a tear, it was a sprain, that medically can be recovered in a week, especially when he has the best training staff in the world.
Actually those injures is 3-6 weeks and he had ankle and elbow injury. Was out two weeks which means rust. 16 Curry is definitely better then 15. Your nuts.