Stephen A: Thunder Can't Continue with Westbrook Playing PG

[eliteballer]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:15851992

Move the man to his true position.

[bigkingsfan]

After four games, he was destroying Curry though. :roll:

[KingPush]

I noticed Stephen A started hating on okc hard after KD called him out

[Noyze]

I noticed Stephen A started hating on okc hard after KD called him out

True, but Westbrook had more turnovers in the 4th quarter then any player in playoff history.

[Asukal]

Westbrook is a walking triple double, he is a great PG. Stephen A is a hating stupid motherfvcker. :facepalm

[oarabbus]

After four games, he was destroying Curry though. :roll:


Surely that will bring him solace as he watches Curry in the finals from his couch :roll:

[Dictator]

Pass-first Westbrook is the top pg in the league. Shoot-first Westbrook is a top 10 bonehead.

[Genaro]

It's kind of old to blame Westbrook for every Thunder problem and to say he isn't a PG. SAS is about 4 years late.
Westbrook didn't shoot the ball well in the playoffs (neither did KD), but he actually gave a lot of good passes throughout the whole season. Anyone saying he isn't a PG, didn't watch Thunder games this season or it's just a moron.
BTW, if Roberson could shoot, the Thunder would have a much better offense in late games.

[Showtime80']

Yeah a walking triple double that you don't know what the hell direction is going to take the team during crunch time due to very sloppy and inconsistent decision making!!! That's cute in the regular season where the Thunder can win 55+ games and ESPN can run little fluff pieces comparing him to Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson (Ridiculous comparison on both counts!) but when it comes to MONEY TIME this is not PG you want directing your teams offense specially with the Warriors and Steph looking like they're going to be around for a while!

I have said it MULTIPLE TIMES on this site, NO TEAM will win the title with Westbrick as the PG! Book it! He's a nice little stat stuffer with a great motor but does not have the poise and IQ level necessary to attack from that position during crunch time.

[Demitri98]

I'm curious if Stephen A actually sits down and pays close attention to the game. If he did, he would see that Westbrook does a lot more good for them than he does harm. No player is flawless. He's always actively shouting and directing players before running a set, and when they execute their plays well, it always ends with a very good shot. He also played phenomenal defense on Curry as well as Green or Bogut when he switched onto them. OKC switched everything involving Klay, Curry or Green, which is why Adams or Kanter were often stuck on an island against Curry or Thompson.

[plowking]

Stephen A needs to take a look at how short the list is for guards who have averaged 24/10. Then look at the even shorter list for 24/8/10.

That is how good Westbrook is.

[CTbasketball92]

SAS is crazy. I don't think there's another PG that can do what what westbrook just did these playoffs. Beat a ridiculously good Spurs team then push a historically great team to seven games. Westbrook is an amazing point guard.

[Showtime80']

Russell Westbrick is a bone headed, low IQ player that suppresses his mental shortcomings just enough to put up good numbers but will KILL YOU in crunch time more often than not!

Again he's the bastard child of the new generation of SHOOT FIRST PG's that tragically spawned in the late 90's- early 2000's with the likes of Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury and Baron Davis!

They are all short SG's trying to play a position that goes against EVERYTHYING in their nature!

[imdaman99]

Russell Westbrick is a bone headed, low IQ player that suppresses his mental shortcomings just enough to put up good numbers but will KILL YOU in crunch time more often than not!

Again he's the bastard child of the new generation of SHOOT FIRST PG's that tragically spawned in the late 90's- early 2000's with the likes of Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury and Baron Davis!

They are all short SG's trying to play a position that goes against EVERYTHYING in their nature!
He was clutch as fk in the Spurs series, fool. He was the biggest reason the Thunder won 2 road games in San Antonio, and the biggest reason OKC stole game 1 in Golden State. Does he make mistakes? Yeah of course. Does he try to get KD the ball in crunch time? Absolutely. KD gets the ball denied from him. Is it Westbrook's fault KD gets bodied enough that someone can steal the ball from him so easily as he tries to feed him? :oldlol:

He averaged 11 assists a game and 2.56 steals in the playoffs. That is an improvement on his regular season averages. He does shoot first, but he passes 2nd and passes 3rd. You don't get 11 assists by shooting every time. So STFU and try to enjoy him and his competitiveness because there are very few in history who can do the things he can do. Francis, Marbury and Baron Davis wish they could have done the things he can.

[imdaman99]

Surely that will bring him solace as he watches Curry in the finals from his couch :roll:
Yeah, it's a shame Westbrook doesn't have Klay Thompson on his team :oldlol:

[oarabbus]

Yeah, it's a shame Westbrook doesn't have Klay Thompson on his team :oldlol:


Sure is. We're the best damn team in the league and don't ****ing forget it. Plus it's not like Westbrook has an all time great player like Kevin Durant on his squad or anything doe

[imdaman99]

Sure is. We're the best damn team in the league and don't ****ing forget it. Plus it's not like Westbrook has an all time great player like Kevin Durant on his squad or anything doe
Best damn team in the league and y'all got taken to 7 and needed a collapse by OKC and Klay to carry the team in game 6. Alright, stop with the Curry is goat narrative and the cockiness :oldlol:

Klay was far and away the best player in game 6. Durant is most definitely an all time great and better than Klay but he did not play like it.

[oarabbus]

Best damn team in the league and y'all got taken to 7 and needed a collapse by OKC and Klay to carry the team in game 6. Alright, stop with the Curry is goat narrative and the cockiness :oldlol:


You've been a Warriors hater since early last year at the least man, honestly your shit gets old.

Find ONE post by me (that isn't jokingly trolling 3Ball) where I said Curry is goat. EVER. Nah, you wont find it, but you will find a lot of posts by me saying "I give no ****s about whos the 'best player' on the dubs as long as we win"

And now you aren't even allowed to have pride in your team without people giving you shit about it when you're the defending champions. :facepalm

[imdaman99]

You've been a Warriors hater since early last year at the least man, honestly your shit gets old.

Find ONE post by me (that isn't jokingly trolling 3Ball) where I said Curry is goat. EVER. Nah, you wont find it, but you will find a lot of posts by me saying "I give no ****s about whos the 'best player' on the dubs as long as we win"

And now you aren't even allowed to have pride in your team without people giving you shit about it when you're the defending champions. :facepalm
Warrior hater? Hardly, I rooted for them once the Cavs got their 2-1 lead. Warrior disbeliever? Yeah definitely, especially considering they struggled in the first series they played a team that wasn't injured and was legit :oldlol:

You have been a Warrior fan from the start though :cheers: But don't go down the same path as that retarded CurryOnlyFan :facepalm

[G-train]

OKC don't need to change anything.

[oarabbus]

Warrior hater? Hardly, I rooted for them once the Cavs got their 2-1 lead. Warrior disbeliever? Yeah definitely, especially considering they struggled in the first series they played a team that wasn't injured and was legit :oldlol:

You have been a Warrior fan from the start though :cheers: But don't go down the same path as that retarded CurryOnlyFan :facepalm

Fair enough :cheers:

[FashionIssues]

sas is the best surfer in media in terms of predictions and damage control when they don't pan out.

[BedroomBully]

Westbrook is not a true PG. Also, KD is a horrible play maker, and another turnover machine. They need a true point guard in OCK if they want to take it to the next level.

[TheReal Kendall]

Wb to me is like Tim Tebow. They don't really have a true position. Wb really not a sg even though that's what he played in college. His shot too inconsistent.

But he got heart and he'll find a way to win. He got that dog in him and he cut throat.

I been saying kd and him wasn't gonna work.

[G-train]

I been saying kd and him wasn't gonna work.

They made game 7 of WCF.
And should have won game 6.

They definitely work.

[warriorfan]

Yeah, it's a shame Westbrook doesn't have Klay Thompson on his team :oldlol:

yeah he only has kevin durant :roll:

[robby712]

Westbrook is not a bad point guard. But I agree that it's very hard to win a title with him running point. His problem is that he only knows to play at one speed, very fast. He plays with his heart and not with his head. He does not know how to slow the game and play possession by possession, and that's crucial in the playoffs. And when the game slows down, his game suffers. He can't shoot well, and he isn't a great finisher at the rim. Great in transition, but not in the half court.

[TheReal Kendall]

They made game 7 of WCF.
And should have won game 6.

They definitely work.

Yeah but they didn't win tho.

I say they don't work cause Wb needs his own team.

[imdaman99]

yeah he only has kevin durant :roll:
I'm sorry, did KD play better in game 6 or was it Klay Thompson? :lol

[bdreason]

He reminds me a lot of James Harden. Both guys are fantastic players, but you'll never win a title if they're your primary scorer, or you allow them to dominate the ball. Both players lack bball IQ, poise, and leadership abilities. And both guys rely on getting to the FT line to be efficient scorers... something that becomes less reliable come playoff time.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Westbrook is a hall of famer already you phegget

Name one better performance this post season better than Russ game 5 vs Spurs?

[MiseryCityTexas]

And people in here got the nerve to say that Westbrook is better than Gary Payton. Payton would destroy Westbrook using his back to the basket post up game alone.:oldlol: Not even sure if Westbrook is better than Steve Francis or Baron Davis.:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Anyone wanna tell me what Chris Paul, Oscar Robertson, Terry Porter, Mark Price, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Lenny wilkens, Kevin Johnson, Deron Williams, John Wall, Terrell Brandon, Sam Cassell, Mike conley, Tim Hardaway, Kenny Anderson and dozens of other "real" points did with the many amazing rosters they played with to suggest Russells way is keeping his team from doing something a "real" point would handle? You have only one ring as a key player in the group and like 5 total finals appearances in what....200 years of combined careers?

This is just another example of a player becoming a victim of only one team being able to win. So people make the jump from didnt win...to cant possibly win. And they rely on the fact that it has not happened to "prove" it never can....which is clearly ridiculous. The Thunder could have won the title this season with 1 rolled ankle at the right moment.

Westbrook is about to end up a first ballot hall of famer. And he will join a pile of "real" points who took all nba and HOF laden rosters to less success than hes had already.

People get so amped up to change a working formula because a team "only" defeated a 67 win team and lost to the best team ever by record....in 7 games....barely.

Really. That proves Westbrook cant be allowed to play the point?

But when dudes who are considered among the 2-3 best playmakers ever lose in the first round with 61 win teams and MVP teammates? When the all time assist leader for decades takes another top 50 player and 2 all stars to like 40 wins? When a guy leads a revolutionary offense to great records and MVP years and never makes the finals? What then?

What...you lose as pure point you just lost....you lose as a scoring point....you need to be a 2?

Russell and KD if healthy....would win 50 something games and knock off championship level teams forever. May win a ring...may not. Joining the dozens of other legends who didnt. Hes having one of the best peaks a point has ever had so far....

Them losing means nothing except most all time greats have to lose yearly.

They are as good now as a good number of teams that actually won......and they beat teams...that easily could have won.

They are an absolute contender with him as he is...where he is. There is little reason to assume they do any better with him at the 2.

Equally talented and more talented teams have had great pure points lead them nowhere. They found a formula that works.

Problem is people only see title....or laughingstock. So we overreact and want to get drastic. 80% of the legends you know were no more effective than Russell is just as he is. And most wouldnt get any more from this Thunder team. Being the co star on a 55-60 win team thats a tough out every year of health...is pretty ****ing great. Half the hall of fame was never a part of that.

All thats left to see is if they ever catch the series of breaks needed to go all the way. It sure as hell isnt just a matter of how good you are once you get to this level. At this level...all the teams can win with a break or two...the right bounce. The right guy out for a couple games. They are where they need to be. All thats left is to see how it plays out the next 5 years.

They dont need to really change anything.

[Dragonyeuw]

I had this conversation with someone the other day before SAS brought it up. I argued that the Thunder would be better off if they freed up Westbrook to play the 2 and bring in a defensive-minded, steady PG to run the offense. Really, the Thunder's offense still consists primarily of Durant and Westbrook taking turns, there's nothing especially cutting edge about it. Granted, I dont agree with SAS and Skip's rationale for 'why' Westbrook should move to the 2, but I do feel as though they need a less offensive-minded PG, a bit more diversity in offensive sets, and move Westbrook over to the 2 just to free him up from that responsibility of having to balance playmaking for teammates with his obvious offensive talents and mindset.

That said, Kblaze makes a great point above that teams with so-called 'purer' PGs have fared worse in the playoffs and won jackshit, so...... I don't know. Crucial turnovers in crutch-time and KDs inability to properly game manage and recognize what was needed from him in games 6 and 7 blew that series moreso than whether Westbrook was running the show properly or not. They pretty much shrank under the spotlights when they got too bright.

[R.I.P.]

Well the Thuinder can

[theaussieguy]

blows my mind that people are even suggesting otherwise. The highest usage rate in the last 30 years in the playoffs????

when are u idiots going to realize there is a whole lot more to just compiling stats, u need to actually play winning basketball to win and while westbrooks boneheadedness is good for compiling stats, there becomes a point where its just detrimental to the team success given the usage rate.

[SexSymbol]

yeah, he's a good passer, but doesn't know how to run an offense.
He'd be lethal playing SG

[Meticode]

Westbrook is a walking triple double, he is a great PG. Stephen A is a hating stupid motherfvcker. :facepalm
That's not the point. The point is Westbrook lacks the decision-making to make the correct play in the correct situation. Don't get me wrong, he's the most fierce competitor in the league today, he plays probably he hardest out of anyone every single day, he keeps his emotions on his sleeve while he's on the court, and he simply great. But you can't be a walking-triple double, but shoot the ball sub-40% in a playoff series and give up several key turnovers in the 4th quarter trying to making contact to get calls in a physical playoff series.

[Meticode]

Mike Conley Jr.

[PsychoBe]

he had the most 4th quarter turnovers than anyone else in playoff history.

"real pg" tho :oldlol:

[Meticode]

Anyone wanna tell me what Chris Paul, Oscar Robertson, Terry Porter, Mark Price, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Lenny wilkens, Kevin Johnson, Deron Williams, John Wall, Terrell Brandon, Sam Cassell, Mike conley, Tim Hardaway, Kenny Anderson and dozens of other "real" points did with the many amazing rosters they played with to suggest Russells way is keeping his team from doing something a "real" point would handle? You have only one ring as a key player in the group and like 5 total finals appearances in what....200 years of combined careers?

This is just another example of a player becoming a victim of only one team being able to win. So people make the jump from didnt win...to cant possibly win. And they rely on the fact that it has not happened to "prove" it never can....which is clearly ridiculous. The Thunder could have won the title this season with 1 rolled ankle at the right moment.

Westbrook is about to end up a first ballot hall of famer. And he will join a pile of "real" points who took all nba and HOF laden rosters to less success than hes had already.

People get so amped up to change a working formula because a team "only" defeated a 67 win team and lost to the best team ever by record....in 7 games....barely.

Really. That proves Westbrook cant be allowed to play the point?

But when dudes who are considered among the 2-3 best playmakers ever lose in the first round with 61 win teams and MVP teammates? When the all time assist leader for decades takes another top 50 player and 2 all stars to like 40 wins? When a guy leads a revolutionary offense to great records and MVP years and never makes the finals? What then?

What...you lose as pure point you just lost....you lose as a scoring point....you need to be a 2?

Russell and KD if healthy....would win 50 something games and knock off championship level teams forever. May win a ring...may not. Joining the dozens of other legends who didnt. Hes having one of the best peaks a point has ever had so far....

Them losing means nothing except most all time greats have to lose yearly.

They are as good now as a good number of teams that actually won......and they beat teams...that easily could have won.

They are an absolute contender with him as he is...where he is. There is little reason to assume they do any better with him at the 2.

Equally talented and more talented teams have had great pure points lead them nowhere. They found a formula that works.

Problem is people only see title....or laughingstock. So we overreact and want to get drastic. 80% of the legends you know were no more effective than Russell is just as he is. And most wouldnt get any more from this Thunder team. Being the co star on a 55-60 win team thats a tough out every year of health...is pretty ****ing great. Half the hall of fame was never a part of that.

All thats left to see is if they ever catch the series of breaks needed to go all the way. It sure as hell isnt just a matter of how good you are once you get to this level. At this level...all the teams can win with a break or two...the right bounce. The right guy out for a couple games. They are where they need to be. All thats left is to see how it plays out the next 5 years.

They dont need to really change anything.
It all comes down to the decisions Westbrook makes in critical situations. It has shown to be his weakest point of his game and it hurt them in these playoffs committing the most turnovers in the 4th quarter in the playoffs...ever.

[DCL]

the problem with westbrook is that he's a very fine player but he *thinks* he's an all-time legend. when they're down in fourth quarters, he's probably thinking "i'm gonna take over this shit and get 20 straight points." that mentality is great if you are a real legend who's unstoppable and have the power to take over. but when you're delusional and think you're greater than what you are, it just fks everything up. there were a bunch of occasions in their last three losses when the warriors buried a 3 and westbrook immediately tried to answer back by firing back a quick 3 of his own when there was still plenty time on the clock. that's ego-checking playground basketball, but that's not wise basketball decision-making. nobody says shit if they go in, but when they're nothing but bricks in your own face, they are just stupid ass desperate and selfish FGAs.

there's an influential domino effect if your PG plays like this because when you see westbrook jack up bricks, you also see durant suddenly playing stupid ass ball too because he's probably thinking, "westbrook is totally wasting our opportunities. i have to do something before he wastes another one." both durant and westbrook played like this in game 6 when they blew a fourth quarter lead. there's no game plan in those moments when everybody is playing desperately. it's a complete melt-down. what were the stats on number of passes before FGAs went up for the thunder in second halves? they were probably pretty sad. it's ugly playground basketball when players resort to that style but CAN'T get it done.

basketball IQ is not just mastering X's and O's but also knowing your personal limitations and not trying to play beyond your true capabilities. when you don't know when to stop or change, you mess up the chemistry with the rest of the team. you only have the keys to play hero ball when you have legit skills to perform as a hero. westbrook's biggest problem is that he's simply not good enough to be doing some of the things that he attempts and that's why when he fails, we see them as ill-advised decision making.

[Asukal]

That's not the point. The point is Westbrook lacks the decision-making to make the correct play in the correct situation. Don't get me wrong, he's the most fierce competitor in the league today, he plays probably he hardest out of anyone every single day, he keeps his emotions on his sleeve while he's on the court, and he simply great. But you can't be a walking-triple double, but shoot the ball sub-40% in a playoff series and give up several key turnovers in the 4th quarter trying to making contact to get calls in a physical playoff series.

Read the bolded and tell me you agree with what Stephen A said. They almost beat the team with the most wins in NBA history and your going to tell me he doesn't deserve to be the PG anymore? GTFO here! :whatever:

[WolfGang]

Westbrook was easily the best player for OKC during these playoffs. Why are we talking about Goatbrook when Durant was a ghost the entire series? I think the coach should take the ball out of Goatbrooks during the last 6 minutes. I'm sure Kerr would.

I can see Goatbrook playing the 2 for about 10-20 minutes a game. It would shake things up.

[Klay 3D]

Westbrook would feast on the weakest SG era...but then again, he's sh!t off-ball so :confusedshrug:

[guy]

His individual assist stats are misleading. Someone on ESPN mentioned that the Thunder actually the least amount of passes in the whole regular season, despite Westbrook having so many assists. Golden State in contrast had the most. The only way that could happen is he's getting that many assists because he dominates the ball, not because he's running a relatively efficient offense.

Sure, they're still a great team, but they obviously have some flaws that holds them back. By the way, what exactly is wrong with what SAS said? If they can get Mike Conley Jr., and pair him up with Westbrook in the backcourt, why shouldn't they? You could easily move Westbrook to the 2, and they could always share ball-handling duties. He'd easily be their third best player.

[Dragonyeuw]

By the way, what exactly is wrong with what SAS said? If they can get Mike Conley Jr., and pair him up with Westbrook in the backcourt, why shouldn't they? You could easily move Westbrook to the 2, and they could always share ball-handling duties. He'd easily be their third best player.

Nothing, in no way does that adversely impact them as a team. In fact, I think it frees up Westbrook to concentrate more on scoring without having to balance that against calling plays for others. I was actually thinking someone like Rondo, but Conley would be a good fit for them too IMO.

[j3lademaster]

Surely that will bring him solace as he watches Curry in the finals from his couch :roll:Even then, it takes a huge delusional hater to not put him at the very worst a top 2 pg and top 5 player in the world.

[imdaman99]

The problem is that the entire team gets too predictable in the final minutes to close a game out. Even then, the Warriors needed some amazingly difficult 3s to even stay close in game 6. They had an all time great team on the ropes, up 8 with 5 mins left. I'd take my chances with Westbrook running the show again, he is still improving.

I'm sure there are 25+ teams out there willing to max him as their PG. I had to watch Jose Calderon :oldlol:

[chocolatethunder]

SAS is crazy. I don't think there's another PG that can do what what westbrook just did these playoffs. Beat a ridiculously good Spurs team then push a historically great team to seven games. Westbrook is an amazing point guard.

He didn't push a team to seven games. He had a team on the ropes up 3-1 and choked it away. Gotta be realistic about what happened. Straight up, they choked and gave the series away. I'm not saying he needs to be the SG but he sure as hell makes bonehead plays, plays hero ball and turns the ball over. If you can't see that then you're blind. He's awesome but getting those numbers out of him (which everyone here seems to be obsessed with) comes at a price in crunch time.

[Kblaze8855]

It all comes down to the decisions Westbrook makes in critical situations. It has shown to be his weakest point of his game and it hurt them in these playoffs committing the most turnovers in the 4th quarter in the playoffs...ever.

There arent box scores by quarter....for all time. Thats another number made up to sound shocking. Im sure its a lot. Im also sure whoever came up with it doesnt know how many turnovers bob Cousy had in the 4th quarters of the 1959 playoffs. Or Pistol Pete on the Hawks. There are playoff games from the 80s that dont have full box scores. That said...its still no doubt a lot. ANd there is also no doubt that the hundreds of points to turn it over less....almost all had less playoff success.

Think for a moment...how many points...ever...have done more as their teams best or second best player.

Off the top of my head.....

Tricky Dick Mcguire(maybe...never actually won but got as close more times)
Guy Rodgers(though he probably wasnt #2 at the time)
Cousy
Walt Frazier
Oscar on the Bucks
Some might say Jojo White...though most would say Cowens and Hondo were 1 and 2
Gus Williams though he was a straight up scorer(he put up like 3 assists a game in the playoffs the year they won)
Magic
You might give Nate Archibald 1981...others would say Parish was #2.
Isiah
Tony Parker
Steph

So maybe....7 indisputable. In 70 years. Awful lot of names of guys who dont turn it over and play closer to the style guys insist you have to to win....not in there.

When a guy like Westbrook loses...even after one of the best seasons ever...and knocking off an all time great team...and nearly another one...its often put at his feet due to style. But you have straight up pure points...HOF guys...take a team with 5 all stars and lose in the first round.

Its not as simple as....that guy cant be your point and win. The only thing simple here is....most people must lose every year.


Really.....if Klay doesnt go insane late in game 6....is Russell then an acceptable point?

The idea here is if he were moved...they could play to potential. The question I must then ask....why do so many teams with "pure" points not play to potential?

Guys like Russell who can own a series through sheer talent and force of will have proven more likely to get you over the top than more in control guys quietly running the team. Even running it on an all time great level.

Winning a title(the one and only thing anyone can say he has not done) is hard no matter what. History suggests a guard who scores his ass off is more likely to get it done than one who doesnt though. Like 9 of the guys I listed above were straight up scorers. History is full of all star points who put up just 2 turnovers a game, have two first ballot hall of fame teammates/mvps, and another 2 borderline stars and lose in the first round to a 40 something win team led by a crackhead and Bernard Kings little brother.

But the answer there isnt.....this guy cant play point. Its....lets evaluate the team as a whole.

[Kblaze8855]

Really Russell at the point is a huge reason they even got as far as they did. Its not a decent setup when hes doubling up Parkers production and destroying a near 70 win team....then unacceptable when he gets his team to game 7 vs the best team ever and they lose. That guy coming down ignoring the offense and just blowing by 3 guys for a layup whenever he wants to...his passion...his maniacal approach...is half the reason they have been as great as they have.

Four dozen calmer more in control points took talented teams nowhere. Why am I to believe one wouldnt do the same thing with this team?

Westbrook has...if anything...proven his worth at the point. Some costly turnovers dont prove he shouldnt be at the 1 any more than Nash having 10 turnovers when he dropped 40 on the Mavs and lost in the playoffs prove he shouldnt or Jason Kidd having 14 in a game proves he shouldnt.

It just proves shit went bad at a poor time while he was fighting and forcing things....as a great player is prone to do when they feel things slipping away.

If failure or a lot of costly turnovers prove your point shouldnt be....an awful lot of the best points ever shouldnt have been either. Turnovers come with greatness and trying to impose your will. Which is why damn near any great point you check on had a lot...especially in the playoffs. Many of them more than Russell.

The entire team has to be looked at after these things(and by "these things" id like to note...we mean an incredible run against all predictions). Russell is just an easy scapegoat at the moment.

[DMAVS41]

Stephen A. is an idiot on this one.

They can't continue? They are a Durant awful game 6 performance from making the NBA finals after beating arguably the best regular season team ever...without home court.

What is he talking about?

This Thunder team needs to add one more 3/D perimeter player that is legit shooter that can allow Roberson to play a bit less. That's it...there does not need to be sweeping changes...etc.

Donovan will get much better. Kanter and Waiters will be better next year. Adams will be better next year.

You add one more rotation perimeter 3/D guy and it would be nice to have a better backup point than Foye. Minor minor changes....

People have to stop. This team just beat an all time great Spurs team and should have beaten an all time great Warriors team if Durant doesn't shit the bed at home in game 6.

Beyond stupid to make wholesale changes to this team if Durant stays.

[kshutts1]

It all comes down to the decisions Westbrook makes in critical situations. It has shown to be his weakest point of his game and it hurt them in these playoffs committing the most turnovers in the 4th quarter in the playoffs...ever.
If Westbrook makes a turnover in the first 10 seconds of the game, or the last 10 seconds... both do the exact same thing... lose your team a possession, and thus an opportunity to score.

Give me the guy that is arguably the best player in the league for the first 47 minutes and has 4 turnovers in the last minute over the guy that is "only" top 10-15 in the league for the entire game.

This thread, aside from a few posts (most notably KBlaze's) is a bunch of serious overreactions. God forbid a team barely loses to one of the greatest teams of all time :facepalm

[miggyme1]

Stephen A. is an idiot on this one.

They can't continue? They are a Durant awful game 6 performance from making the NBA finals after beating arguably the best regular season team ever...without home court.

What is he talking about?

This Thunder team needs to add one more 3/D perimeter player that is legit shooter that can allow Roberson to play a bit less. That's it...there does not need to be sweeping changes...etc.

Donovan will get much better. Kanter and Waiters will be better next year. Adams will be better next year.

You add one more rotation perimeter 3/D guy and it would be nice to have a better backup point than Foye. Minor minor changes....

People have to stop. This team just beat an all time great Spurs team and should have beaten an all time great Warriors team if Durant doesn't shit the bed at home in game 6.

Beyond stupid to make wholesale changes to this team if Durant stays.


ALLEGEDLY

[miggyme1]

If Westbrook makes a turnover in the first 10 seconds of the game, or the last 10 seconds... both do the exact same thing... lose your team a possession, and thus an opportunity to score.

Give me the guy that is arguably the best player in the league for the first 47 minutes and has 4 turnovers in the last minute over the guy that is "only" top 10-15 in the league for the entire game.

This thread, aside from a few posts (most notably KBlaze's) is a bunch of serious overreactions. God forbid a team barely loses to one of the greatest teams of all time :facepalm


:facepalm

id rather turn the ball over in the first quarter down 20 than turn it over in the last 30 secs of a tied game.

Somebody drug test this guy

[kshutts1]

:facepalm

id rather turn the ball over in the first quarter down 20 than turn it over in the last 30 secs of a tied game.

Somebody drug test this guy
If the game is tied, sure. But if it's tied, it's because you had a turnover earlier in the game that affected your scoring opportunities.

Play turnover-free basketball for the first 40 minutes, and it would be VERY hard to lose a basketball game, no matter how badly you played the last 8 minutes.

Otherwise known as... the whole game counts.

[Levity]

move westbrook to sg and he STILL dominates the ball. thats his game. and as far as we know, thats where hes at his best. what pass first PG could you realistically pair him up with? i cant see many that hed willingly want to give up the rock and playmaking to.

hes very similar to lebron in that sense. they both are very capable and proven floor generals. but there will always be that perpetual question of just how dominate they can be offensively, if they took more of a off the ball scoring role, instead of the teams sole playmaker.

and with westbrook a free agent after next season, theres no way the thunder try to implement that now, in fear of him being unhappy in that role and eventually leaving (though, i doubt he stays either way)

[WolfGang]

Really Russell at the point is a huge reason they even got as far as they did. Its not a decent setup when hes doubling up Parkers production and destroying a near 70 win team....then unacceptable when he gets his team to game 7 vs the best team ever and they lose. That guy coming down ignoring the offense and just blowing by 3 guys for a layup whenever he wants to...his passion...his maniacal approach...is half the reason they have been as great as they have.

Four dozen calmer more in control points took talented teams nowhere. Why am I to believe one wouldnt do the same thing with this team?

Westbrook has...if anything...proven his worth at the point. Some costly turnovers dont prove he shouldnt be at the 1 any more than Nash having 10 turnovers when he dropped 40 on the Mavs and lost in the playoffs prove he shouldnt or Jason Kidd having 14 in a game proves he shouldnt.

It just proves shit went bad at a poor time while he was fighting and forcing things....as a great player is prone to do when they feel things slipping away.

If failure or a lot of costly turnovers prove your point shouldnt be....an awful lot of the best points ever shouldnt have been either. Turnovers come with greatness and trying to impose your will. Which is why damn near any great point you check on had a lot...especially in the playoffs. Many of them more than Russell.

The entire team has to be looked at after these things(and by "these things" id like to note...we mean an incredible run against all predictions). Russell is just an easy scapegoat at the moment.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[miggyme1]

If the game is tied, sure. But if it's tied, it's because you had a turnover earlier in the game that affected your scoring opportunities.

Play turnover-free basketball for the first 40 minutes, and it would be VERY hard to lose a basketball game, no matter how badly you played the last 8 minutes.

Otherwise known as... the whole game counts.


otherwise known as.....an idiot on ISH

Who plays mistake free basketball until the last 8 minutes? lmao. IM DONE HERE

[90sgoat]

Westbrook passing on drives is lethal.

Westbrook shooting ill advised jumpers is the worst.

I disagree with KBlaze, you can't have your point guard consistently make poor decisions in crunch time.

Compare him to prime Tony Parker in how to make decisions.

Westbrook desperately need to understand how less is more sometimes.

[bizil]

Years ago, Larry Brown had the vision to move AI to the SG. Even though AI would have been great at PG, his thought process and explosive scoring ability was MORE like the great SG's. So Larry let Eric Snow be the PG to defend the bigger SG's. While AI could still check the PG's. AI was STILL a more talented passer than Snow. BUT Snow was a floor general FIRST who looked to pass first. When a PG HAPPENS to be score first, it can throw off the offensive chemistry of a team at times.

Magic, Isiah, and Big O were pass first PG's who HAPPENED to be alpha dog quality as well. It was the best of both worlds with those three. With Westbrook, a move to the SG could be very beneficial. However, would the Thunder try to get a big PG to defend the SG's. Or would they go after a smaller PG and let Russ defend the SG's.

Some score first PG's like Steph still are great floor generals. They just happen to be so deadly scoring they have to get up shots. But in Russ's case his floor generalship still needs to improve. Even though he has impressive assists numbers. With that said, the Thunder can still win rings with Russ at PG. But if they move him to the SG, I wouldn't blame him. He's more similar to guys like a David Thompson and D Wade than most PG's, so maybe letting him loose at the SG would be good.

[ArbitraryWater]

Its always Westbrook.. lame.

[ArbitraryWater]

Anyone wanna tell me what Chris Paul, Oscar Robertson, Terry Porter, Mark Price, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Mark Jackson, Gary Payton, Lenny wilkens, Kevin Johnson, Deron Williams, John Wall, Terrell Brandon, Sam Cassell, Mike conley, Tim Hardaway, Kenny Anderson and dozens of other "real" points did with the many amazing rosters they played with to suggest Russells way is keeping his team from doing something a "real" point would handle? You have only one ring as a key player in the group and like 5 total finals appearances in what....200 years of combined careers?

This is just another example of a player becoming a victim of only one team being able to win. So people make the jump from didnt win...to cant possibly win. And they rely on the fact that it has not happened to "prove" it never can....which is clearly ridiculous. The Thunder could have won the title this season with 1 rolled ankle at the right moment.

Westbrook is about to end up a first ballot hall of famer. And he will join a pile of "real" points who took all nba and HOF laden rosters to less success than hes had already.

People get so amped up to change a working formula because a team "only" defeated a 67 win team and lost to the best team ever by record....in 7 games....barely.

Really. That proves Westbrook cant be allowed to play the point?

But when dudes who are considered among the 2-3 best playmakers ever lose in the first round with 61 win teams and MVP teammates? When the all time assist leader for decades takes another top 50 player and 2 all stars to like 40 wins? When a guy leads a revolutionary offense to great records and MVP years and never makes the finals? What then?

What...you lose as pure point you just lost....you lose as a scoring point....you need to be a 2?

Russell and KD if healthy....would win 50 something games and knock off championship level teams forever. May win a ring...may not. Joining the dozens of other legends who didnt. Hes having one of the best peaks a point has ever had so far....

Them losing means nothing except most all time greats have to lose yearly.

They are as good now as a good number of teams that actually won......and they beat teams...that easily could have won.

They are an absolute contender with him as he is...where he is. There is little reason to assume they do any better with him at the 2.

Equally talented and more talented teams have had great pure points lead them nowhere. They found a formula that works.

Problem is people only see title....or laughingstock. So we overreact and want to get drastic. 80% of the legends you know were no more effective than Russell is just as he is. And most wouldnt get any more from this Thunder team. Being the co star on a 55-60 win team thats a tough out every year of health...is pretty ****ing great. Half the hall of fame was never a part of that.

All thats left to see is if they ever catch the series of breaks needed to go all the way. It sure as hell isnt just a matter of how good you are once you get to this level. At this level...all the teams can win with a break or two...the right bounce. The right guy out for a couple games. They are where they need to be. All thats left is to see how it plays out the next 5 years.

They dont need to really change anything.

****ing Bingo... people forgetting only one team wins. :facepalm

[miggyme1]

Years ago, Larry Brown had the vision to move AI to the SG. Even though AI would have been great at PG, his thought process and explosive scoring ability was MORE like the great SG's. So Larry let Eric Snow be the PG to defend the bigger SG's. While AI could still check the PG's. AI was STILL a more talented passer than Snow. BUT Snow was a floor general FIRST who looked to pass first. When a PG HAPPENS to be score first, it can throw off the offensive chemistry of a team at times.

Magic, Isiah, and Big O were pass first PG's who HAPPENED to be alpha dog quality as well. It was the best of both worlds with those three. With Westbrook, a move to the SG could be very beneficial. However, would the Thunder try to get a big PG to defend the SG's. Or would they go after a smaller PG and let Russ defend the SG's.

Some score first PG's like Steph still are great floor generals. They just happen to be so deadly scoring they have to get up shots. But in Russ's case his floor generalship still needs to improve. Even though he has impressive assists numbers.


why would the thunder need that when westbrook is legit 6'5???.........the thing is HE SHOULD BE PLAYING SG. HE has sg height and everything.


He isn't a undersized sg or oversized pg.....he will prolly go down as the prototype for the new "COMBO GUARD"

A 6'4-6'6 athletic freak that allows his team to interchange pieces within lineups depending on the flow of the game. Start him at sg....get a big lead you can sub your starters out and move him to pg to facilitate for the bench players..

Down late in a game??? bring back in your starters moving russ back to the 2 to focus solely on scoring WHEN his number is called.

[90sgoat]

Years ago, Larry Brown had the vision to move AI to the SG. Even though AI would have been great at PG, his thought process and explosive scoring ability was MORE like the great SG's. So Larry let Eric Snow be the PG to defend the bigger SG's. While AI could still check the PG's. AI was STILL a more talented passer than Snow. BUT Snow was a floor general FIRST who looked to pass first. When a PG HAPPENS to be score first, it can throw off the offensive chemistry of a team at times.

Magic, Isiah, and Big O were pass first PG's who HAPPENED to be alpha dog quality as well. It was the best of both worlds with those three. With Westbrook, a move to the SG could be very beneficial. However, would the Thunder try to get a big PG to defend the SG's. Or would they go after a smaller PG and let Russ defend the SG's.

Some score first PG's like Steph still are great floor generals. They just happen to be so deadly scoring they have to get up shots. But in Russ's case his floor generalship still needs to improve. Even though he has impressive assists numbers. With that said, the Thunder can still win rings with Russ at PG. But if they move him to the SG, I wouldn't blame him. He's more similar to guys like a David Thompson and D Wade than most PG's, so maybe letting him loose at the SG would be good.

Yes.

[CavaliersFTW]

That team has made it to the NBA Finals and the WDF in the past few years with Westbrook as the PG... he also was a BEAST when KD was injured. I think he's doing beyond fine at point guard, in fact, he's one of the 5 best point guards in the NBA at minimum. What's his edge at shooting guard again?

[stalkerforlife]

Who cares about what SAS says?

Westbrook is a great player and they'll win a title if they stick together.

They almost got it done this year.

[ZenMaster]

He's right, doesn't seem like Westbrook will never get the combination of IQ, ballhandling and shooting to be a championship winning PG. Would be a great SG though on all accounts.

[bizil]

why would the thunder need that when westbrook is legit 6'5???.........the thing is HE SHOULD BE PLAYING SG. HE has sg height and everything.


He isn't a undersized sg or oversized pg.....he will prolly go down as the prototype for the new "COMBO GUARD"

A 6'4-6'6 athletic freak that allows his team to interchange pieces within lineups depending on the flow of the game. Start him at sg....get a big lead you can sub your starters out and move him to pg to facilitate for the bench players..

Down late in a game??? bring back in your starters moving russ back to the 2 to focus solely on scoring WHEN his number is called.

Westbrook AINT a legit 6'5!! If he was a legit 6'5, he would have been playing the SG THE WHOLE TIME!!! Once he left UCLA, he was moved to PG because of his height. If u read my post, I CLEARLY stated the value in Russ playing the SG. BUT I wouldn't blame OKC IF they kept him at point.

The shit I said TOTALLY went over your head!!! I was talking about the various options OKC would have IF they move Russ to the SG. I never said Russ couldn't defend typical SG's well. But when Russ is defending bigger wings, he could get exploited on the block some. So learn how to comprehend SHIT when u disagree. Pointing out options AND SAYING somebody isn't capable of something is TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

Maybe Billy WOULD RATHER have Russ using his freakish athletic ability to defend smaller PG's instead. If Russ was REALLY 6'5, he would have been an SG from DAY ONE in the NBA!! Maybe Donovan would rather have Russ DEFEND Curry THAN DEFEND Thompson!

[tamaraw08]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:15851992

Move the man to his true position.

After beating the mighty Spurs 4 years ago.
Then beating the 5 time champs again this year
then winning the 3 games vs the current champs, all of a sudden Westbrook is playing out of position. :confusedshrug:

Im not saying he is a great efficient PG but something worked, take away the injury filled playoffs the past 3 years....
How about Donovan failing to adjust.
Or lack of effective end game setplays? I mean you put Doc Rivers in that situation, he will come up with great sets.
or how about a good shooter/back up like Jamaal Crawford.

[bizil]

When u look at some of the legendary SG's in NBA history, they could have played the PG. And be GREAT AT IT. But they thought score first and were alpha dogs. So since the MOST PREMIUM ASSET in the sport is alpha dog scoring, the SG was their best spot:

MJ
West
Kobe
Wade
Pete
Monroe
AI

Thought process wise, Westbrook is MORE SIMILAR to these guys than a Magic, Isiah, CP3, Big O, etc. So I see the logic in moving him to the SG. He was an SG at UCLA but was drafted to a PG by OKC because of his height. But he's one of those RARE GUARDS who can be great at both spots. Even with his floor generalship lacking at times, his numbers can't be denied either.

[ZenMaster]

After beating the mighty Spurs 4 years ago.
Then beating the 5 time champs again this year
then winning the 3 games vs the current champs, all of a sudden Westbrook is playing out of position. :confusedshrug:

Im not saying he is a great efficient PG but something worked, take away the injury filled playoffs the past 3 years....
How about Donovan failing to adjust.
Or lack of effective end game setplays? I mean you put Doc Rivers in that situation, he will come up with great sets.
or how about a good shooter/back up like Jamaal Crawford.

Where do you come up with "all of the sudden"? Many people have been saying this for years.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Baron Davis was better than Russell Westbrook regardless of stats. Davis was a better defender, and even though Davis was a street baller type point guard that can dunk, Baron still knew how to run the offense unlike Westbrook

[MiseryCityTexas]

People were comparing Westbrook to Gary Payton, but is Westbrook even better than prime Steve Francis was? Comparing both player's stats, Westbrooks clearly a better player, but Westbrooks only better than Francis by a slight, slim margin. Francis was also a much better one on one defender than Westbrook also.

[Chadwin]

Westbrook passing on drives is lethal.

Westbrook shooting ill advised jumpers is the worst.

I disagree with KBlaze, you can't have your point guard consistently make poor decisions in crunch time.

Compare him to prime Tony Parker in how to make decisions.

Westbrook desperately need to understand how less is more sometimes.

I can excuse some of the turnovers but he should not be taking the amount of threes he does.

[Hey Yo]

He reminds me a lot of James Harden. Both guys are fantastic players, but you'll never win a title if they're your primary scorer, or you allow them to dominate the ball. Both players lack bball IQ, poise, and leadership abilities. And both guys rely on getting to the FT line to be efficient scorers... something that becomes less reliable come playoff time.
Westbrook avg. the same amount of FTA in the reg. season as he does in the playoffs.....7

Harden (since he became a starter in HOU) avg. 10FTA in the reg. season. 7 in the playoffs.

[ScarSymmetry]

Thunder allmost knocked out a team with the greatest record in NBA history. Theyll be fine.

How these "analyst" get a job is bewildering.

Skip is a poor troll and Stephen is the overreaction guy who 'calls it ive seen enough' after 1 game.

[chocolatethunder]

Thunder allmost knocked out a team with the greatest record in NBA history. Theyll be fine.

How these "analyst" get a job is bewildering.

Skip is a poor troll and Stephen is the overreaction guy who 'calls it ive seen enough' after 1 game.
No, they choked away a 3-1 lead because they make stupid plays. I don't care about how great someone's numbers are. I care about winning. For as hard as Westbrook plays, he plays dumb sometimes. They won't be fine. They are playing the same way they played under Scott Brooks and he was blamed for their inability to turn the corner. Now we have a new coach and the same results. Who's to blame now?

I'm not saying that he needs to be an SG but I am saying that when you keep coming up the same you need to look in the mirror and check yourself.

[ZenMaster]

Why do people see this as a negative? He could be a great 2 guard playing next to someone smarter who'd know when to get him the ball, be the scorer and all around player he was meant to be.

[tamaraw08]

Where do you come up with "all of the sudden"? Many people have been saying this for years.

Did they talked about this after they upset the Spurs 4 years ago?
3 weeks ago when they beat the Spurs? when they were up 3-1 vs the might GSW?
SAS have been talking almost everyday the past what, 14 years now? how many times has he brought this up?
I don't question the point, I just question the timing. These so-called analysts had to say something, why didn't they say anything when OKC was winning? bec it didn't make sense does it?
But I get the idea, it's can't be just another pure PG who can't shoot and defend. And who ever is that player is very hard to find. Who exactly do you have in mind?
And Iverson example is quite different. They didn't win just bec of AI's superb talent. the East was very weak and they played GREAT DEFENSE.

[miggyme1]

Westbrook AINT a legit 6'5!! If he was a legit 6'5, he would have been playing the SG THE WHOLE TIME!!! Once he left UCLA, he was moved to PG because of his height. If u read my post, I CLEARLY stated the value in Russ playing the SG. BUT I wouldn't blame OKC IF they kept him at point.

The shit I said TOTALLY went over your head!!! I was talking about the various options OKC would have IF they move Russ to the SG. I never said Russ couldn't defend typical SG's well. But when Russ is defending bigger wings, he could get exploited on the block some. So learn how to comprehend SHIT when u disagree. Pointing out options AND SAYING somebody isn't capable of something is TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

Maybe Billy WOULD RATHER have Russ using his freakish athletic ability to defend smaller PG's instead. If Russ was REALLY 6'5, he would have been an SG from DAY ONE in the NBA!! Maybe Donovan would rather have Russ DEFEND Curry THAN DEFEND Thompson!


Again westbrook is legit 6'5. look at him stand next to curry/craig sager both guys are 6'3-6'4. westbrook is a inch OR SO above them. he is LEGIT 6'5.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU RESPOND DUMMY.

[Dro]

He's fine at PG, wtf is going on in the world?

He doesn't even shoot well enough to play SG, teams would sag off him. At least at PG he can bring the ball up the court, get a speed edge on guys and blow passed them.

[miggyme1]

He's fine at PG, wtf is going on in the world?

He doesn't even shoot well enough to play SG, teams would sag off him. At least at PG he can bring the ball up the court, get a speed edge on guys and blow passed them.


wade




THE END

[DMAVS41]

No, they choked away a 3-1 lead because they make stupid plays. I don't care about how great someone's numbers are. I care about winning. For as hard as Westbrook plays, he plays dumb sometimes. They won't be fine. They are playing the same way they played under Scott Brooks and he was blamed for their inability to turn the corner. Now we have a new coach and the same results. Who's to blame now?

I'm not saying that he needs to be an SG but I am saying that when you keep coming up the same you need to look in the mirror and check yourself.

Durant maybe?

He did lay an egg in the biggest game of his career with a chance to close out the Warriors at home.

Talk about stupid play. How about taking 8 three pointers and 31 shots in a game he couldn't get it going.

Selfish, stupid, and simply poor play.

All this other stuff is just noise. Say something when the Thunder lose that game with Durant playing great.

But if a team is still up 8 with 5 minutes to go on the 73 win Warriors with your "best player" playing terrible in an elimination playoff game to reach the finals...you don't have a supporting cast or coaching problem.

Full stop.

Since when do people think a team/player should reach the finals and or win it all without being great?

[kshutts1]

otherwise known as.....an idiot on ISH

Who plays mistake free basketball until the last 8 minutes? lmao. IM DONE HERE
Been away for a bit due to work. Just wanna toss this hypothetical out there to illustrate my previous point...

Thunder lost a game by one point.
In the first thirty seconds of the game, Kevin Durant gets free for a fast-break dunk. He, inexplicably, misses the dunk.
In the final five seconds of the game, Russell Westbrook chooses to take the last shot himself. He misses a fifteen foot jump shot.

In this hypothetical, I believe we can all agree that Westbrook will get the vast majority of the blame... but considering the missed dunk, is that fair?

I believe that illustrates my earlier point that the entire game counts. We, as fans, just choose to focus on the end due to recency bias, and the media-created belief that "crunch time" is this mythical thing that exists, and our stars must perform admirably.

[Asukal]

Been away for a bit due to work. Just wanna toss this hypothetical out there to illustrate my previous point...

Thunder lost a game by one point.
In the first thirty seconds of the game, Kevin Durant gets free for a fast-break dunk. He, inexplicably, misses the dunk.
In the final five seconds of the game, Russell Westbrook chooses to take the last shot himself. He misses a fifteen foot jump shot.

In this hypothetical, I believe we can all agree that Westbrook will get the vast majority of the blame... but considering the missed dunk, is that fair?

I believe that illustrates my earlier point that the entire game counts. We, as fans, just choose to focus on the end due to recency bias, and the media-created belief that "crunch time" is this mythical thing that exists, and our stars must perform admirably.

LOL! Spoken by someone who never played basketball. :oldlol: :lol :hammerhead:

[kshutts1]

LOL! Spoken by someone who never played basketball. :oldlol: :lol :hammerhead:
I've played, and at a relatively high level. I just don't believe that the game is won or lost in the final minute. The final score, and the outcome, is an accumulation of the entire game.

[FultzNationRISE]

True, but Westbrook had more turnovers in the 4th quarter then any player in playoff history.

:roll:


This is Lebron’s “second option” right now

[L8krH8tr]

stop bumping old threads you stupid lonely fucc