Who had a better, more complete offensive game between Kobe and MJ?

[BedroomBully]

I need honest opinions here. IMO, it is close. They had similar styles, with Kobrick's being more aesthetically pleasing.

[Derivative]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/one_zpsofprexde.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/two_zpsyf3ohegq.jpg














http://replygif.net/i/1249.gif

[34-24 Footwork]

Easily Kobe.

But more complete offensive game isn't synonymous with better production.



Kobe relied on his skillset more than his athleticism.

Jordan relied on his athleticism more than his skillset.


Just depends on what you like.
Same goes for the Shaq/Hakeem argument, as well.

[34-24 Footwork]

Obviously, Jordan's perfect blend of athleticism and skill still happens to be the most productive offensive game ever.

[Derivative]

Easily Kobe.

But more complete offensive game isn't synonymous with better production.



Kobe relied on his skillset more than his athleticism.

Jordan relied on his athleticism more than his skillset.


Just depends on what you like.
Same goes for the Shaq/Hakeem argument, as well.

Jordan also played with higher IQ. Kobe took a lot of stupid shots to be honest.

[FKAri]

Jordan was smarter (or more in control of his ego), more athletic and ultimately more effective. Kobe was more skilled.

[34-24 Footwork]

Jordan also played with higher IQ. Kobe took a lot of stupid shots to be honest.

A lot easier to OVERLY RELY on skillset rather than athleticism, tbh. His overconfidence breeds a genuine belief that he can make EVERY SHOT HE TAKES.

If Curry shot 45% from the field, you guys would DEFINITELY BE saying that he takes stupid shots. But since it works, most people are quiet about it.

[BedroomBully]

Jordan was smarter (or more in control of his ego), more athletic and ultimately more effective. Kobe was more skilled.
Its hard to argue against this. I would also give Kobe the edge in footwork. But to Kobe's demise, he chucked a lot of low-percentage shots. MJ has it all in his arsenal of weapons. He would hurt you with speed, athleticism, IQ, mid-range, post up, ect.

[34-24 Footwork]

Its hard to argue against this. I would also give Kobe the edge in footwork. But to Kobe's demise, he chucked a lot of low-percentage shots. MJ has it all in his arsenal of weapons. He would hurt you with speed, athleticism, IQ, mid-range, post up, ect.

Speed and athleticism shouldn't be referenced as "weapons" within an offensive arsenal, in my opinion.

I don't think you can conflate talent w/ skill in that manner. It just gets sloppy.

Because I could ask you who has the more complete offensive arsenal? Westbrook or prime Tony Parker?

[bizil]

As some of the other posters have said, Kobe was more skilled BUT MJ was the better offensive player in terms of dominance-production. Kobe was the superior three point shooter and ball handler. That's where Kobe evolved what MJ brought to the table.

But when it comes to combining freak athletic ability AND EPIC fundamentals in one, MJ and Kobe are the top two of all time. Much more athletic than Big O, Magic, Bird, West, etc. And more fundamentally sound than Bron, Wade, Westbrook, Drexler, Nique, etc.

[BedroomBully]

Speed and athleticism shouldn't be referenced as "weapons" within an offensive arsenal, in my opinion.

I don't think you can conflate talent w/ skill in that manner. It just gets sloppy.

Because I could ask you who has the more complete offensive arsenal? Westbrook or prime Tony Parker?
Easy. Westbrook.

[BedroomBully]

As some of the other posters have said, Kobe was more skilled BUT MJ was the better offensive player in terms of dominance-production. Kobe was the superior three point shooter and ball handler. That's where Kobe evolved what MJ brought to the table.

But when it comes to combining freak athletic ability AND EPIC fundamentals in one, MJ and Kobe are the top two of all time. Much more athletic than Big O, Magic, Bird, West, etc. And more fundamentally sound than Bron, Wade, Westbrook, Drexler, Nique, etc.
Valid post. The only negative thing about Kobe was his inefficiency. He would become a chucker quite to often, becoming a detriment to his team.

[34-24 Footwork]

Easy. Westbrook.

Not sure how long you been watching basketball. Tony Parkers tear drop was more effective than anything that Westbrook had in his arsenal.

[imnew09]

The fact that you compare the GOAT offensive player with Godbe pretty sums up how great Kobes offensive game is


MJ is a top notch and no one could be compared to him aside from Kobe

[34-24 Footwork]

Valid post. The only negative thing about Kobe was his inefficiency. He would become a chucker quite to often, becoming a detriment to his team.

7 finals appearances.
5 championship rings.

Don't see the detriment broham.


Michael Jordan coming down 6 possessions straight and taking 18 footers each time was a detriment to his team as well. but obviously, it's something that his teammates are grateful for.

[ShawkFactory]

If you wanted to pull out ALL the stops...probably Kobe.

But Jordan was obviously more effective in what he did, and was a better decision maker overall.

People act as though Jordan's athleticism is what got him where he is. His craftiness around the rim and jumper were huge.

[BedroomBully]

7 finals appearances.
5 championship rings.

Don't see the detriment broham.


Michael Jordan coming down 6 possessions straight and taking 18 footers each time was a detriment to his team as well. but obviously, it's something that his teammates are grateful for.
Champions are team accomplishments. Yes they look great on a resume, but what about his personal achievemments?

[3ball]

.
Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 30.1 ppg.. 49.7%.. 27.9 PER
BRYANT REG SEASON:. 25.0 ppg.. 44.7%.. 22.9 PER

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 33.4 ppg.. 48.7%.. 28.6 PER
BRYANT PLAYOFFS:. 25.6 ppg.. 44.8%.. 22.4 PER


not even close

[beastee]

.
Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 30.1 ppg.. 49.7%.. 27.9 PER
BRYANT REG SEASON:. 25.0 ppg.. 44.7%.. 22.9 PER

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 33.4 ppg.. 48.7%.. 28.6 PER
BRYANT PLAYOFFS:. 25.6 ppg.. 44.8%.. 22.4 PER


not even close

The playoff numbers of Jordan are so impressive, his status as GOAT will NEVER be challenged. That PER is insane.

[BedroomBully]

.
Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 30.1 ppg.. 49.7%.. 27.9 PER
BRYANT REG SEASON:. 25.0 ppg.. 44.7%.. 22.9 PER

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 33.4 ppg.. 48.7%.. 28.6 PER
BRYANT PLAYOFFS:. 25.6 ppg.. 44.8%.. 22.4 PER


not even close
Damn 3ball, you just killed any aspirations of making this a worthy debate! MJ is by far the superior talent, but I atleast wanted to keep this debate competitive. :pimp:

[FKAri]

The playoff numbers of Jordan are so impressive, his status as GOAT will NEVER be challenged. That PER is insane.
Someone better will definitely come along. It's just a matter of time.

[beastee]

Someone better will definitely come along. It's just a matter of time.
Evolution says yes. What a time that will be. Hopefully they stay on the team they are drafted by and we can tell our grandsons how great he was. :rockon:

[3ball]

Damn 3ball, you just killed any aspirations of making this a worthy debate! MJ is by far the superior talent, but I atleast wanted to keep this debate competitive. :pimp:
Jordan was great at avoiding defenders like Kobe, but he could also attack defenders directly (https://media.giphy.com/media/2Aq4mhbE0Iko/giphy.gif) and overpower them - Kobe had to avoid defenders a little more.. Ultimately, Jordan was simply better at the many moves Kobe copied..

Btw, I posted the stats because I hadn't looked at the final stats since Kobe's career officially ended.. Gotta admit, the gap surprised me a little bit.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan.

Superior athleticism. Same skill package, foot work. Obviously considering Kobe copied his move set. But MJ had better quickness, hops and separation from defenders.

Mike's versatility of driving to the basket off the bounce, plus superior ability to finish at the rim and his wet jumper, including from 3 if you gave it to him ... Made him better and more consistent offensive package. A more trust worthy decision maker, more efficient.

Kobe was a slightly better ball handler and definitely more range. Which also made his shot selection more suspect and over confident.

Both are the best one on one, ISO players I've ever seen though. By far.

[twoonetwo1]

Did Kobe really have better ball-handling skills than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

[game3524]

Jordan is better, but from a complete offensive skill stand point, the answer is Kobe.

[NZStreetBaller]

Kobe was literally everything jordan was on a lesser level on every term by a small but noticable margin. Even their personalities were similar. The whole career accolades and stuff differ due to the circumstances around them. For instance lets say we sent kobe back to the 60s and give him bill russels team he would have more rings.

[KingPush]

Could Jordan score 60 at age 37?

[game3524]

Jordan.

Superior athleticism. Same skill package, foot work. Obviously considering Kobe copied his move set. But MJ had better quickness, hops and separation from defenders.

Mike's versatility of driving to the basket off the bounce, plus superior ability to finish at the rim and his wet jumper, including from 3 if you gave it to him ... Made him better and more consistent offensive package. A more trust worthy decision maker, more efficient.

Kobe was a slightly better ball handler and definitely more range. Which also made his shot selection more suspect and over confident.

Both are the best one on one, ISO players I've ever seen though. By far.

Kobe yes, but I don't know about MJ. I would put AI ahead of Mike in that regard.

[bizil]

Valid post. The only negative thing about Kobe was his inefficiency. He would become a chucker quite to often, becoming a detriment to his team.

I agree! Kobe was part of the And 1 generation where the balance between looking good-fancy AND effectiveness was off a bit.

[jstern]

I hate the term handles, because the one thing that I admire the most about Jordan is his ability to create shots. Which is so subtle and hard for people who are not aware to notice. But then you have a player that dribbles, and dribbles, and the average person takes that to be something superior, an advantage over Jordan. Hard to explain. It's literally taking style over superior hard to understand and more effective substance.

[game3524]

I agree! Kobe was part of the And 1 generation where the balance between looking good-fancy AND effectiveness was off a bit.

That is bullshit.

Kobe in his prime was a highly efficient player. He was always above average in terms of eFG% and TS%.

[Lebronxrings]

kobe did nothing better than MJ. Nothing.

[PsychoBe]

I hate the term handles, because the one thing that I admire the most about Jordan is his ability to create shots. Which is so subtle and hard for people who are not aware to notice. But then you have a player that dribbles, and dribbles, and the average person takes that to be something superior, an advantage over Jordan. Hard to explain. It's literally taking style over superior hard to understand and more effective substance.

jordan generally did his work early and held his position, especially in the post. reggie miller referred to him as "the shaq of shooting guards" because he could not be pushed off of his spot. he also made extremely sharp cuts and even if a defender could keep up with his off-ball movement, all he had to do was make a move with his legendary first step and elevate at his sweet spot. he didn't have to work hard for his shots because he knew what he was going to do before he did it.

kobe didn't have the elevation that jordan had, so he had to rely on footwork and skill as well as his incredible basketball acumen. in fact he talked about how he would break a defender down by doing one move (maybe a jab step into a hard drive and a pull-up) then on the next possession he would do the same jab step but instead he'd jab step and straight up. then on the possession after that, he'd jab step, drive hard right, crossover to his left, and pull-up. etc, etc. he played chess out there. not saying jordan didn't either but kobe wasn't as gifted so he had to work harder.

[BedroomBully]

jordan generally did his work early and held his position, especially in the post. reggie miller referred to him as "the shaq of shooting guards" because he could not be pushed off of his spot. he also made extremely sharp cuts and even if a defender could keep up with his off-ball movement, all he had to do was make a move with his legendary first step and elevate at his sweet spot. he didn't have to work hard for his shots because he knew what he was going to do before he did it.

kobe didn't have the elevation that jordan had, so he had to rely on footwork and skill as well as his incredible basketball acumen. in fact he talked about how he would break a defender down by doing one move (maybe a jab step into a hard drive and a pull-up) then on the next possession he would do the same jab step but instead he'd jab step and straight up. then on the possession after that, he'd jab step, drive hard right, crossover to his left, and pull-up. etc, etc. he played chess out there. not saying jordan didn't either but kobe wasn't as gifted so he had to work harder.
Not bad.

[Disaprine]

op thinks comparing kobe to jordan is insulting. :roll:

[jstern]

jordan generally did his work early and held his position, especially in the post. reggie miller referred to him as "the shaq of shooting guards" because he could not be pushed off of his spot. he also made extremely sharp cuts and even if a defender could keep up with his off-ball movement, all he had to do was make a move with his legendary first step and elevate at his sweet spot. he didn't have to work hard for his shots because he knew what he was going to do before he did it.

kobe didn't have the elevation that jordan had, so he had to rely on footwork and skill as well as his incredible basketball acumen. in fact he talked about how he would break a defender down by doing one move (maybe a jab step into a hard drive and a pull-up) then on the next possession he would do the same jab step but instead he'd jab step and straight up. then on the possession after that, he'd jab step, drive hard right, crossover to his left, and pull-up. etc, etc. he played chess out there. not saying jordan didn't either but kobe wasn't as gifted so he had to work harder.

Kind of like Wizard's Jordan. Less to work with, so had to do more fakes, etc.

But my point is not about Kobe, but just people in general using the term handles when comparing someone to Jordan, as if the players that does fancy dribbling actually has an advantage over the extremely refined footwork of a Michael Jordan. Which were more than just physical advantage, but rather highly skilled well defined moves that sometimes just looked to simple.

What's actually better? A player who does one move and beats you within one second. Dozens of different way, within one second. Or a player who dribbles, and dribbles, under his legs, behind the back, whatever, and after 5 seconds he finally does a move. The first player just cut out a lot of the fat while giving the defense less of a chance to react, while minimizing his chances for turnovers, while the 2nd players as fancy as he looks sometimes gets butter fingers.

Now again, my comment is not about Kobe vs Jordan, but about the whole perception of handles.

[3ball]

Kobe played chess out there setting up defenders



Jordan taught Kobe how to set up defenders - here's Jordan doing a fadeaway first:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xCU9qNwN49z8I/giphy.gif



Then he fakes the fadeaway and turns the opposite way:


https://media.giphy.com/media/b9P0jiJTj56es/giphy.gif



Here's Jordan doing a fadeaway first again:


https://media.giphy.com/media/JyNXF9NE1S1bO/giphy.gif



Then he fakes the fadeaway and does an up-and-under:


https://media.giphy.com/media/2UhNtHvLZfPqM/giphy.gif



There are many videos and interviews where Jordan states that he is ALWAYS setting up the defender - it's one of the most important things he does.. He didn't just randomly do moves out there - considering how quickly and easily he scored, it shouldn't be a surprise that he was a perpetual schemer for his points.
.

[Im Still Ballin]

Jordan

But really when you think about it... Kobe could do everything Michael could.... MJ just did it a hell of a lot better, and when it was necessary

If you do want to nitpick it, Jordan has a more complete offensive game... But is this really an accurate statement, or was Kobe just an irrational basketball player who forced things?

[Im Still Ballin]

Plainly put... Jordan played the game the right way. Whatever the defense showed him, he countered. He didn't force particular outlets or styles of scoring unlike Kobe... Like in the GIFs above by 3ball... Jordan countered to what the defense gave him

Kobe would force up fadeaways over 3 defenders...

[3ball]

Plainly put... Jordan played the game the right way. Whatever the defense showed him, he countered. He didn't force particular outlets or styles of scoring unlike Kobe... Like in the GIFs above by 3ball... Jordan countered to what the defense gave him

Kobe would force up fadeaways over 3 defenders...



I get your overriding point, but Jordan would hoist over 3 defenders too :lol:


https://media.giphy.com/media/QshCWXdx9h7y0/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/G5Srm5EwCWqv6/giphy.gif

[CarlosBoozer]

Kobe's offense is the same way he treats women, he forces it in despite the resistance and situation.

Mj does it the right way, the perfect way if I may say.

[Im Still Ballin]

I get your overriding point, but Jordan would hoist over 3 defenders too :lol:


https://media.giphy.com/media/QshCWXdx9h7y0/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/G5Srm5EwCWqv6/giphy.gif
Don't get me wrong

Plenty of guys can play the way Kobe does

Not that it's particularly hard or something of difficulty

Jordan would probably be better at it than Kobe

[3ball]

Don't get me wrong

Plenty of guys can play the way Kobe does

Not that it's particularly hard or something of difficulty

Jordan would probably be better at it than Kobe



Oh, I just wanted to post gifs of Jordan shooting over 3 guys... and now dunking over 3 guys:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/lFE09a.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

[bizil]

That is bullshit.

Kobe in his prime was a highly efficient player. He was always above average in terms of eFG% and TS%.

I NEVER SAID Kobe wasn't efficient!! BUT Kobe would catch cases of hero ball more than MJ would. Kobe would force up more BAD SHOTS than MJ did. As efficient as Kobe was, MJ's FG% was INSANE for a perimeter player averaging 30 plus points a night. MJ shot over 50% SIX TIMES in his career. He had three other seasons where he shot 49% from the field.

Kobe NEVER SHOT 50% or over from the field. NOT ONCE!! His best FG% in a season was 47%. MJ's best FG% in a season was 54%! That's a BIG GAP in terms of shooting percentage. Kobe had VERY GOOD FG% during his career!! MJ had EPIC FG% during his career!!! Kobe had the tools to shoot AT LEAST 50% from the field.

But he was part of the new school guys who may have tried to play hero ball A BIT TOO MUCH!! Hero ball is needed sometimes, but Kobe was capable of shooting a better percentage from the field. But let's face it, guys like Kobe and AI had the new school And 1 mentality. Not saying it's a bad thing. But MJ scoring 35 points a night on 54% shooting in a season is CLEARLY MORE IMPRESSIVE!!

[bizil]

Plainly put... Jordan played the game the right way. Whatever the defense showed him, he countered. He didn't force particular outlets or styles of scoring unlike Kobe... Like in the GIFs above by 3ball... Jordan countered to what the defense gave him

Kobe would force up fadeaways over 3 defenders...

Exactly! Kobe NEVER shot over 50% from the field during his career. MJ shot over 50% six seasons. And had three more at 49%. Kobe took WAY MORE bad shots than MJ did. When people point at the difference between MJ and Kobe, the way they employed their scoring dominance was a key difference.

The shooting percentages guys like MJ, Bird, and King put up back in the day were INSANE. We are talking 30 points a night shooting over 50% from the field in certain seasons. Kobe had ALL THE TOOLS to do the same thing. But his shot selection didn't enable him to. So instead of putting up PHENOMENAL shooting percentages, Mamba put up very good shooting percentages at best.

[ShawkFactory]

Could Jordan score 60 at age 37?
Yes..

[Asukal]

Could Jordan score 60 at age 37?

He scored 51 at age 38 attempting 38 shots. What makes you think Jordan couldn't reach 60 points if he attempted 12 more shots? :hammerhead:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kobe.

[Dro]

I need honest opinions here. IMO, it is close. They had similar styles, with Kobrick's being more aesthetically pleasing.
I honestly think MJ is the most aesthetically pleasing NBA player in history pretty much...I don't even get tired of watching him shoot regular jumpshots, lol...

[Dro]

Kind of like Wizard's Jordan. Less to work with, so had to do more fakes, etc.

But my point is not about Kobe, but just people in general using the term handles when comparing someone to Jordan, as if the players that does fancy dribbling actually has an advantage over the extremely refined footwork of a Michael Jordan. Which were more than just physical advantage, but rather highly skilled well defined moves that sometimes just looked to simple.

What's actually better? A player who does one move and beats you within one second. Dozens of different way, within one second. Or a player who dribbles, and dribbles, under his legs, behind the back, whatever, and after 5 seconds he finally does a move. The first player just cut out a lot of the fat while giving the defense less of a chance to react, while minimizing his chances for turnovers, while the 2nd players as fancy as he looks sometimes gets butter fingers.

Now again, my comment is not about Kobe vs Jordan, but about the whole perception of handles.
To me, you just described James Harden....all this dribbling to do a step back, over the outstretched hands of the defender, still not a clean look, that he could have done in the first place, without wasting all that time off the shot clock and all that energy...

[Snarky Narc]

I need honest opinions here. IMO, it is close. They had similar styles, with Kobrick's being more aesthetically pleasing.
Taking dumb shots is neither aesthetically pleasing nor makes you more complete. Jordan is easily better.

[AirFederer]

Lol at Kobe more skilled :roll: :facepalm
Fvck outta here!

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ was more consistent on a night in, night out basis. Kobe maybe got a little hotter when 'in the zone' and especially from 3. Kobe had more modern handles, but good luck stripping peak MJ and he had lower TPG for his career, so I wouldn't equate more aesthetically pleasing handles with being a more effective one. MJ used more body shimmies, 'palm' show the ball, fake one high/head the opposite, without a lot of the over-dribbling that defines the games of many perimeter greats today. More decisive, sharper movements, better shot selection....more effective.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would say Kobe used more "moves" to get shots up (like a Jamal Crawford just less hairy) whereas Mike made quicker decisions because he had BOTH greater athleticism and fundamentals, which is also why dude was one of the games smartest players.

BTW, this isn't a LeBron vs Kobe debate where Kobe fanboys can use "SKILLZ" at their leisure. Aside from Bird, Jordan is arguably the most skilled player ever.

[toprange]

MJ's supreme athleticism is what separates the two. That alone boosts MJ's already great offensive and defensive skills. MJ is greater than kobe because of that. In terms of raw offensive and defensive skills they are about the same and that is why kobe is second to none after MJ

[CAstill]

I would say Kobe used more "moves" to get shots up (like a Jamal Crawford just less hairy) whereas Mike made quicker decisions because he had BOTH greater athleticism and fundamentals, which is also why dude was one of the games smartest players.

BTW, this isn't a LeBron vs Kobe debate where Kobe fanboys can use "SKILLZ" at their leisure. Aside from Bird, Jordan is arguably the most skilled player ever.



MJ/KOBE/BIRD The holy trinity of skills