Hubie Brown: Soft Modern Rules Have Taken Away Creativity and Mental Aspect of Game

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]

[Im Still Ballin]

One thing they should do is bring back some portions of the old rules for post players

The game is too much in favor of the perimeter player

Make the back to basket 5 seconds and extend it to 8 or so

An extreme would be, bring specific post up rules from the old illegal defense, like say, the weakside defender can't come over until the post up player has possession

[tpols]

every generation says the generation after them is "soft" .. Jordan's dad used to call him soft. Thats just the way it is.


despite all this talk of handchecking and movement impedment guys in west and kareem's era were frolicking up and down the court, having many more possessions and scoring than today.. lots of contested midrange chucking because players back then didnt have any range and couldnt pull the defense out to all corners of the court to create ideal spacing. It was a dumb downed era.

[3ball]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/hubie-brown-breaks-down-why-older-players-hate-on-the-modern-nba/

He's got a point...back in the day players actually needed moves; post-ups, fade-aways, footwork etc.

It was actually a lot of work to be able to attack inside and get a clean look at the rim.

Nowadays all you]ve got is the ball being swung around the perimeter until an on open 3 clear path to the lane appears.


https://media.giphy.com/media/DgY4J4qV0acw/giphy.gif

[Da_Realist]

Hubie's right. The league is dumbed down. The only ones that won't admit it are the ones that don't want to admit it.

[Bankaii]

It was actually a lot of work to be able to attack inside and get a clean look at the rim.

Nowadays all you]ve got is the ball being swung around the perimeter until an on open 3 clear path to the lane appears.
This is one of the dumbest, most inaccurate statements I've heard in a while.

[Bankaii]

Hubie's right. The league is dumbed down. The only ones that won't admit it are the ones that don't want to admit it.
The league in which current offenses and defenses are more advanced than ever is "dumbed down". Ok:oldlol:

[bdreason]

There's not enough variety on offense or defense. That's what happens when you create too many rules, and it pigeon-holes teams into playing a particular way. We need LESS rules. Let the players abilities determine how the game is played.

Although I had to root against them, I really enjoyed the way the Spurs played this season.

[Genaro]

I read it on my mind with Hubie's voice.

[nba_55]

Another oldie trying to make his era look better. :facepalm

[PsychoBe]

I read it on my mind with Hubie's voice.

same :lol

[Showtime80']

Uh, Hubie's era expands FOUR DECADES my friend!!! And after all that time HE'S FORGOTTEN more basketball than this forum collectively knows. He was actually coach of the year with the Grizz in 2004!

How can ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND look at the offenses of the teams like the Raptors and Thunder (Two of the four conference finalists) and call that crap SOPHISTICATED OR ADVANSED!?!?!? One team is lead by two guards that are ABSOULUTELY HORRIBLE from the field and the other led by a PG who makes some of the most horrible crunch time decisions ever seen by a supposedly top point guard.

You want to know why offenses in the 1980's and early 90's were quicker, more effective and more productive?!?! The league was FILLED with pass first PG's and dominant low post players!!! Those two type's of players are virtually EXTINCT IN TODAY'S NBA!!!

The modern "sophisticated NBA" offense basically consists of undersized SG's playing the PG position, dribbling the air out the ball and trying to beat defenses 30 feet away from the basket. That's it THAT'S THE MODERN SOPHISTICATION!!!

You want sophistication my friends, go watch the offenses of ANY of these teams from the 80's:

Lakers
Celtics
Sixers
Pistons
Bucks
Jazz
Mavs
Sonics
Rockets
Cavs
Suns
Nuggets

All of those teams had a solid post game, mid range game, fast break attack, timely 3 point shooting and great ball movement! They were well oiled machines compared to the crap you have today!

Take a look some time at the conference finalists from 1988 in the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons and Mavs if you want to see what basketball is supposed to look like!

[warriorfan]

Hubie Brown hasn't won a playoff game in 30 years and he says everyone else are the uncreative ones






















































:yaohappy:

[Showtime80']

Phil Jackson won 5 titles in the 2000's and he virtually ECHOES EVERYTHING HUBIE SAYS!

[ClipperRevival]

Hubie is one of the most knowledgable minds ever. He is speaking truth. Hubie has never been the bitter type anyways. He's just calling it like he sees it.

[ClipperRevival]

Hubie's right. The league is dumbed down. The only ones that won't admit it are the ones that don't want to admit it.

It's ignorance, not that these youngsters actually know the truth and don't want to admit it. These youngsters simply don't know any better. Look at some of the responses on this thread already, completely dismissing the opinion of one of the greatest bball minds to have ever walked this planet.

I've been saying the same that Hubie said over and over on this board but the truth flies right over these youngsters heads. They just can't fathom a point in time when the game was just better. Because the rules forced players to be more well rounded. Not the hands off, soft rules, p&r to free up perimeter players without having to beat their man, wide spacing era. This is not bball at the highest level but a dumbed down version of it.

[LAZERUSS]

He can say what he wants, but the reality is...in the next few years everyone, including "centers" will be shooting 3's.

The game will resemble this past All-Star game. Either wide-open 3's, or a clear path down the lane for a dunk.

[NBAGOAT]

It's ignorance, not that these youngsters actually know the truth and don't want to admit it. These youngsters simply don't know any better. Look at some of the responses on this thread already, completely dismissing the opinion of one of the greatest bball minds to have ever walked this planet.

I've been saying the same that Hubie said over and over on this board but the truth flies right over these youngsters heads. They just can't fathom a point in time when the game was just better. Because the rules forced players to be more well rounded. Not the hands off, soft rules, p&r to free up perimeter players without having to beat their man, wide spacing era. This is not bball at the highest level but a dumbed down version of it.

true but you also have to admit Hubie's always going have a soft spot for the era he coached in. I've seen a slightly older video where he talks about how the sets were better and the defenses were more physical but he was talking specifically the 70's and 80's. Also maybe the pnr game was underutilized back then and it would've been effective even with older rules. I'm surprised by how even a team known for it like the Jazz didn't use it to often. It's like the passing game in the NFL, the rule changes helped but it was underutilized before the recent changes(all the best offenses were pass heavy). Also analytics has affected it, it's understandable that older teams didn't use it as much since it was new but it's hard to fault teams for abusing it today.

[Da_Realist]

He can say what he wants, but the reality is...in the next few years everyone, including "centers" will be shooting 3's.

The game will resemble this past All-Star game. Either wide-open 3's, or a clear path down the lane for a dunk.

Yep. And it won't ever go back. The culture that created a system that taught fundamentals starting at an early age is dead. NBA basketball peaked already. The culture has changed. We live in a highlights-focused world now that started with ESPN. Highlights matter today, not fundamentals, and future stars focus on making highlights starting at 8 years old. Money, fame and publicity reward a nasty crossover, not a bounce pass. Pass first PG's and post up big men are mostly dead and will soon be as extinct as dinosaurs.

[sportjames23]

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/hubie-brown-breaks-down-why-older-players-hate-on-the-modern-nba/

He's got a point...back in the day players actually needed moves; post-ups, fade-aways, footwork etc.

It was actually a lot of work to be able to attack inside and get a clean look at the rim.

Nowadays all you]ve got is the ball being swung around the perimeter until an on open 3 clear path to the lane appears.


Hubie has spoken. :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

Yep. And it won't ever go back. The culture that created a system that taught fundamentals starting at an early age is dead. NBA basketball peaked already. The culture has changed. We live in a highlights-focused world now that started with ESPN. Highlights matter today, not fundamentals, and future stars focus on making highlights starting at 8 years old. Money, fame and publicity reward a nasty crossover, not a bounce pass. Pass first PG's and post up big men are mostly dead and will soon be as extinct as dinosaurs.

We saw examples of that in the last two games of the WCF's. The Warriors gladly traded 2-pt shots for 3 pointers. Without looking it up, they massively outscored the Thunder from the arc.

And unless a center can shoot FT's, and defend the pick-and-roll, as well as defend shooters from behind the arc, they are a liability. Instead of trading 2 points for 3, it is 1 pt for 3.

I don't like it, but if I am a coach, that is what I would have to do.

[sportjames23]

Yep. And it won't ever go back. The culture that created a system that taught fundamentals starting at an early age is dead. NBA basketball peaked already. The culture has changed. We live in a highlights-focused world now that started with ESPN. Highlights matter today, not fundamentals, and future stars focus on making highlights starting at 8 years old. Money, fame and publicity reward a nasty crossover, not a bounce pass. Pass first PG's and post up big men are mostly dead and will soon be as extinct as dinosaurs.


Yup, the NBA and, with it's changes that baby QBs and give all advantages to offenses, the NFL I grew up loving are gone forever. I watch both sports because they're my favorite sports (along with boxing, another sport ruined by those in charge) but I don't enjoy them nearly as much as I used to.

[sportjames23]

Another oldie trying to make his era look better. :facepalm


Hubie's forgot more about basketball than you'll ever know. :facepalm

[sportjames23]

Uh, Hubie's era expands FOUR DECADES my friend!!! And after all that time HE'S FORGOTTEN more basketball than this forum collectively knows. He was actually coach of the year with the Grizz in 2004!

How can ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND look at the offenses of the teams like the Raptors and Thunder (Two of the four conference finalists) and call that crap SOPHISTICATED OR ADVANSED!?!?!? One team is lead by two guards that are ABSOULUTELY HORRIBLE from the field and the other led by a PG who makes some of the most horrible crunch time decisions ever seen by a supposedly top point guard.

You want to know why offenses in the 1980's and early 90's were quicker, more effective and more productive?!?! The league was FILLED with pass first PG's and dominant low post players!!! Those two type's of players are virtually EXTINCT IN TODAY'S NBA!!!

The modern "sophisticated NBA" offense basically consists of undersized SG's playing the PG position, dribbling the air out the ball and trying to beat defenses 30 feet away from the basket. That's it THAT'S THE MODERN SOPHISTICATION!!!

You want sophistication my friends, go watch the offenses of ANY of these teams from the 80's:

Lakers
Celtics
Sixers
Pistons
Bucks
Jazz
Mavs
Sonics
Rockets
Cavs
Suns
Nuggets

All of those teams had a solid post game, mid range game, fast break attack, timely 3 point shooting and great ball movement! They were well oiled machines compared to the crap you have today!

Take a look some time at the conference finalists from 1988 in the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons and Mavs if you want to see what basketball is supposed to look like!


:cheers:

[sportjames23]

It's ignorance, not that these youngsters actually know the truth and don't want to admit it. These youngsters simply don't know any better. Look at some of the responses on this thread already, completely dismissing the opinion of one of the greatest bball minds to have ever walked this planet.

I've been saying the same that Hubie said over and over on this board but the truth flies right over these youngsters heads. They just can't fathom a point in time when the game was just better. Because the rules forced players to be more well rounded. Not the hands off, soft rules, p&r to free up perimeter players without having to beat their man, wide spacing era. This is not bball at the highest level but a dumbed down version of it.


This is why most of the time I don't waste my time arguing facts with them. They don't want to learn and dismiss everything anyone whose been watching basketball before they were born says to them. Why beat your head up against the wall? So I just have fun trolling them back.

[DCL]

hubie brown would be everyone's dad on this site.

he'd son anybody here in basketball-related discussions.

[Poetry]

He can say what he wants, but the reality is...in the next few years everyone, including "centers" will be shooting 3's.

The game will resemble this past All-Star game. Either wide-open 3's, or a clear path down the lane for a dunk.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/no.gif

[Da_Realist]

The NBA went from taped delay to primetime. That is a huge marker of success but with that success came some compromises. The push to reach more (casual) fans has changed what is stressed as important. That filters all the way down the chain to youth basketball.

There was a time when I was basically the only one in my circle of family and friends watching the NBA. I remember Tuesday and Friday night games on the TBS Superstation (Let's go to the hoop!). I was the 'weird' one that would rather watch Cleveland-Atlanta than Webster. Near playoff time, CBS would show games on Sunday afternoons. I was the only one watching. Now I can't think of one person in my life that doesn't keep up with it in some way. That is GREAT for the NBA but it's only because they watered down the product to make it more palatable to the casual fan.

Sponsors started to bring in money (good), cable network and then the internet brought 24/7 exposure (good) and the Jordan effect happened (singular talent that had amazing success by opposing the status quo and becoming the most popular athlete ever).

Now everyone from ballers to the league itself wants to recreate that. Don't get it twisted -- the league earned more money off Jordan than he ever earned. How many franchises were added during Jordan's career? I can think of five. Cha Ching. Plus... who do you think generated the mass hysteria over the Dream Team? Take Jordan off the team and they would have generated as much excitement as Dream Team II. Everyone wants to be like Mike.

The NBA has a lot riding on its success. So when it saw the quality eroding it changed the rules to hide it. The networks broadcasting it also has a lot riding on the success of the league so instead of highlighting problem areas, they focus on creating superstars even when your eyes are telling you the guy is an inefficient, low IQ chucker (hello Russell Westbrook!). Instead of talking about the bad shots and misses that kill his team, they focus on his "heart". Any kid watching wants to be just like him because he's made to look like a hero for playing the way he does.

So the league has become more individualized. Everyone wants to be the next billionaire baller so they find a niche and milk it for all it's worth. That's why most players today are one dimensional. It takes too much work to develop a post game so no one tries. Team-focused PG's aren't glamorized so everyone would rather be an SG. Ball movement is dead especially at the end of games because the stars feel tremendous pressure to be the hero or they will hear all about it from this monster the media has grown into where even bloggers and message boards have a (loud) voice. Stars need to win the game or die trying. Anything else is soft and beta.

The over-reliance of stats and accolades by casual fans that don't have the understanding to put them in the right context is also destroying the product but that's a different, more convoluted discussion.

[aj1987]

every generation says the generation after them is "soft" .. Jordan's dad used to call him soft. Thats just the way it is.


despite all this talk of handchecking and movement impedment guys in west and kareem's era were frolicking up and down the court, having many more possessions and scoring than today.. lots of contested midrange chucking because players back then didnt have any range and couldnt pull the defense out to all corners of the court to create ideal spacing. It was a dumb downed era.
Well said, tpols. They're just mad because those old farts aren't as smart as todays coaches and players.


Players foul hard, people bitch about them being dirty. They don't and those same idiots call them soft. Bunch of ****ing morons. Players back then got as many "soft" calls as players today.

[UK2K]

The NBA went from taped delay to primetime. That is a huge marker of success but with that success came some compromises. The push to reach more (casual) fans has changed what is stressed as important. That filters all the way down the chain to youth basketball.

There was a time when I was basically the only one in my circle of family and friends watching the NBA. I remember Tuesday and Friday night games on the TBS Superstation (Let's go to the hoop!). I was the 'weird' one that would rather watch Cleveland-Atlanta than Webster. Near playoff time, CBS would show games on Sunday afternoons. I was the only one watching. Now I can't think of one person in my life that doesn't keep up with it in some way. That is GREAT for the NBA but it's only because they watered down the product to make it more palatable to the casual fan.

Sponsors started to bring in money (good), cable network and then the internet brought 24/7 exposure (good) and the Jordan effect happened (singular talent that had amazing success by opposing the status quo and becoming the most popular athlete ever).

Now everyone from ballers to the league itself wants to recreate that. Don't get it twisted -- the league earned more money off Jordan than he ever earned. How many franchises were added during Jordan's career? I can think of five. Cha Ching. Plus... who do you think generated the mass hysteria over the Dream Team? Take Jordan off the team and they would have generated as much excitement as Dream Team II. Everyone wants to be like Mike.

The NBA has a lot riding on its success. So when it saw the quality eroding it changed the rules to hide it. The networks broadcasting it also has a lot riding on the success of the league so instead of highlighting problem areas, they focus on creating superstars even when your eyes are telling you the guy is an inefficient, low IQ chucker (hello Russell Westbrook!). Instead of talking about the bad shots and misses that kill his team, they focus on his "heart". Any kid watching wants to be just like him because he's made to look like a hero for playing the way he does.

So the league has become more individualized. Everyone wants to be the next billionaire baller so they find a niche and milk it for all it's worth. That's why most players today are one dimensional. It takes too much work to develop a post game so no one tries. Team-focused PG's aren't glamorized so everyone would rather be an SG. Ball movement is dead especially at the end of games because the stars feel tremendous pressure to be the hero or they will hear all about it from this monster the media has grown into where even bloggers and message boards have a (loud) voice. Stars need to win the game or die trying. Anything else is soft and beta.

The over-reliance of stats and accolades by casual fans that don't have the understanding to put them in the right context is also destroying the product but that's a different, more convoluted discussion.

The bolded is on point, but your entire post is spot on.

[Showtime80']

Add another thing to players of the 80's and 90's qualities that were better than the current ones, VERSATILITY!!!!

As tpol failed to acknowledged, the SAME PLAYERS who were stars in the "frolicking around, more possession and more scoring 80's" RULED THE LESS POSSESION, DEFENSIVE MINDED, SLOWER AND LESS SCORRING 90'S!!!!

Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwon, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Miller, Barkley etc... ALL RULED THE MID TO LATE 90'S which had LESS POSSESSIONS, WAS MORE PHYSICAL AND LESS SCORING THAN TODAY!!! That was just the GREATEST GENERATION of players the NBA has ever seen!

Remove the 3 point line and add hand checking for the 2017 season, honestly how much would the league average PLUMMET by? 90ppg, 85ppg, 80 ppg?

The present NBA is dumbed down, fundamentally flawed, uncreative and getting younger and RAWER by the minute!

[Da_Realist]

Add another thing to players of the 80's and 90's qualities that were better than the current ones, VERSATILITY!!!!

As tpol failed to acknowledged, the SAME PLAYERS who were stars in the "frolicking around, more possession and more scoring 80's" RULED THE LESS POSSESION, DEFENSIVE MINDED, SLOWER AND LESS SCORRING 90'S!!!!

Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwon, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Miller, Barkley etc... ALL RULED THE MID TO LATE 90'S which had LESS POSSESSIONS, WAS MORE PHYSICAL AND LESS SCORING THAN TODAY!!! That was just the GREATEST GENERATION of players the NBA has ever seen!

Very good point!

[brooks_thompson]

All's I know, without comparing eras, is that the NBA likely climaxed for me with the Spurs finals play in '14. My interest has waned so much in the last two years, and I don't see anything on the horizon to slow the decrease.

[Dro]

The league in which current offenses and defenses are more advanced than ever is "dumbed down". Ok:oldlol:
How is running pick and roll over and over and setting moving screens advanced?

[warriorfan]

lets get this straight

hubie cant win a playoff game in 30 years

yet he says its because the modern game wont let him be creative

what a coincidence :lol

what a salty bitch

they should take him out to the glue factory, this old piece of shit is DONE

[PP34Deuce]

I believe the difference when reading this is $$$$

Kareem and West making half a million a year.
Players that are 6th men making 15 million today.

It's similar to many sports, the game becomes entertainment. It's entertainment for the casual fan. Players are entertainer athletes now.

I don't think it's a matter of they don't know the fundamentals more so they don't need to use them.

Pure basketball is WNBA...Most of you guys should watch that if you want pure plays and movement.

[bigkingsfan]

Nobody wants to watch basketball with scores in the 80's

[Showtime80']

Phil Jackson DOMINATED the 2000's and he says the same thing as Hubie Warriorsfan, try again!!!

Hell the 90's generation (which got it's clock cleaned by the 80's guys) are twice as good as this one. Put these players in today's NBA and they would absolutely wreck the present posers a new one:

Shaq
Mourning
Webber
Kemp
Payton
Penny
Hill
Kidd
Wallace
Glen Robinson
Mashburn

[warriorfan]

Phil Jackson DOMINATED the 2000's and he says the same thing as Hubie Warriorsfan, try again!!!


How many playoff victories does Phil Jackson have with out a guy named Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant?

DAT BBALL IQ DOE!!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll:



:facepalm

[Showtime80']

How many playoff victories does Steve Kerr have without Steph Curry?!?!

None and even he thinks the present NBA is softer and caters to shrimps like Steph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

[warriorfan]

How many playoff victories does Steve Kerr have without Steph Curry?!?!

None and even he thinks the present NBA is softer and caters to shrimps like Steph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

Well Steve Kerr has along way to go still since he is close to half the age as the other two senile pieces of shit you keep sucking off

Kerr will probably never devlop a high level of bball iq though

If Kerr had any sort of BBall IQ he would of managed to put up better production than 6ppg/2assists/1 rebound per game for his career

Kerr is an awful player who piggiebacked success off of Michael Jordan, much like Phil Jackson

Just because you are in close proximity to Michael Jordan and ride his coat tails doesn't mean you know about ball

Kerr slams the modern day game because he is looking for excuses on why he was an awful bench warmer that could only manage to score 6 points a game

He is also a pretty meek individual, he knows that Jordan will find his ass and put him in his place if he puts disrespect on his name or his 90's

In Summary

Kerr is a scared cuck who rode Jordan's coattails and got his lights punched out by him when he tried to step. In return he praises the 90's so Jordan doesnt beat that ass again and it excuses why Kerr could only score 6 points per game.

[LAZERUSS]

Well Steve Kerr has along way to go still since he is close to half the age as the other two senile pieces of shit you keep sucking off

Kerr will probably never devlop a high level of bball iq though

If Kerr had any sort of BBall IQ he would of managed to put up better production than 6ppg/2assists/1 rebound per game for his career

Kerr is an awful player who piggiebacked success off of Michael Jordan, much like Phil Jackson

Just because you are in close proximity to Michael Jordan and ride his coat tails doesn't mean you know about ball

Kerr slams the modern day game because he is looking for excuses on why he was an awful bench warmer that could only manage to score 6 points a game

He is also a pretty meek individual, he knows that Jordan will find his ass and put him in his place if he puts disrespect on his name or his 90's

In Summary

Kerr is a scared cuck who rode Jordan's coattails and got his lights punched out by him when he tried to step. In return he praises the 90's so Jordan doesnt beat that ass again and it excuses why Kerr could only score 6 points per game.

Makes you wonder how the Warriors went 7-1 in the playoff games that Glass missed doesn't it? As well as GAC playing like shit in a few other's, including back-to-back blowout losses.

Here are the Warriors with an incompetent coach, and bums like Klay, Dray, Iggy, et al...and playing better without the Fragile One.

But, I wouldn't expect a Warrior-Hater to have anything good to say about Mildly Bruised Knee's surrounding cast.

[Dro]

Hubie is one of the most knowledgable minds ever. He is speaking truth. Hubie has never been the bitter type anyways. He's just calling it like he sees it.
That's what trips me out, these kids get so offended even though when Hubie's doing the games, he gives ALL THESE GUYS credit that are playing today. He gives EVERYONE their deserved props. The kids just don't like it cause he's telling the truth. Anybody older than 15 ****ing years old should be able to see the game is dumbed down...

[Optimus Prime]

Hubie laying down the truth. Like someone else already said, Hubie has forgotten more about the game of basketball than these ignorant kids will ever know in their collective lifetimes.

:bowdown:

[tpols]

Lets watch the great jerry West while hes getting hounded up the court in a Finals series from the 70s, with forearm shivers if he goes one way, and grabbin the hips if he goes another.



http://i.giphy.com/lHgJVSajXVYoU.gif


:eek: :rolleyes:


The fact of the matter is, if you watch these whole series from the 70s, players were always trying to work their way to a contested, sweet spot jumper like 15 feet from the hoop, which they didnt hit at great rates because of how contested shots that close to the hoop are. This is compounded by role players from that era having absolutely no range, so all the defenders basically already have a foot inside the paint.


Imagine if Jerry West could do this ..


http://i.giphy.com/xzXwjBZ1L395K.gif


just pull up from 30 and drain with ease .. the defense would have to be ready to leap at him that far out, at any second, which if they do gives the ball handler free reign to blow right by (you cant handcheck while youre in the air).

But in Jerry Wests case the defense knows he's looking to dribble the ball as close to the hoop as possible, hes never going to pull up from super deep, so you can sag off, hell, they even let him dribble with his right hand while going left .. :facepalm And hubie talking about pressure and physicality lmao. In the paint sure. Thats what happens when role players cant shoot and there's absolutely no spacing.



Seriously go WATCH these games on youtube.. the perimeter play is just not impressive at all. Centers are amazing, but I do wonder why there's a lack of fronting aggressiveness in ball denial. Seems like the defense just lets these guys catch in the post and doesnt even contest .. today it feels like a rugby scrum before the catch anytime a player wants to post up.

[IGOTGAME]

Lets watch the great jerry West while hes getting hounded up the court in a Finals series from the 70s, with forearm shivers if he goes one way, and grabbin the hips if he goes another.



http://i.giphy.com/lHgJVSajXVYoU.gif


:eek: :rolleyes:


The fact of the matter is, if you watch these whole series from the 70s, players were always trying to work their way to a contested, sweet spot jumper like 15 feet from the hoop, which they didnt hit at great rates because of how contested shots that close to the hoop are. This is compounded by role players from that era having absolutely no range, so all the defenders basically already have a foot inside the paint.


Imagine if Jerry West could do this ..


http://i.giphy.com/xzXwjBZ1L395K.gif


just pull up from 30 and drain with ease .. the defense would have to be ready to leap at him that far out, at any second, which if they do gives the ball handler free reign to blow right by (you cant handcheck while youre in the air).

But in Jerry Wests case the defense knows he's looking to dribble the ball as close to the hoop as possible, hes never going to pull up from super deep, so you can sag off, hell, they even let him dribble with his right hand while going left .. :facepalm And hubie talking about pressure and physicality lmao. In the paint sure. Thats what happens when role players cant shoot and there's absolutely no spacing.



Seriously go WATCH these games on youtube.. the perimeter play is just not impressive at all. Centers are amazing, but I do wonder why there's a lack of fronting aggressiveness in ball denial. Seems like the defense just lets these guys catch in the post and doesnt even contest .. today it feels like a rugby scrum before the catch anytime a player wants to post up.

It looks like players are playing behind at times because that ball denial would make a center like Duncan or Hakeem or Shaq or even Doughterty just push you up the lane for an easy drop step/go move or reverse pivot for an easy lob (ball keep high) and finish. The lack of competent post passing and competent post players is what allows for the type of post defense you see today. The rules also play a part.

[jstern]

Didn't Jerry West hit a 65 footer to win a game against the Knicks in the playoffs?

[tpols]

Didn't Jerry West hit a 65 footer to win a game against the Knicks in the playoffs?

doesnt matter because it wasnt a part of his regular arsenal to consistently keep defenses honest with.

Go watch the 1970 NBA Finals, they basically let any guard dribble the ball right to the paint 15 or so feet out unimpeded before handchecking and a crowded paint come into fruition.

If 70s guys actually had unstoppable range, with the defense having to guess where theyre going to launch from very far out, it would give them much more ability to stretch the defense and break it (if you get a defender to contest 30 feet out, you can blow by leaving the defense completely compromised, and if the defender doesnt heavily contest, you're getting hit with the most efficient shot in basketball, a steph curry 3 pt shot).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Save for Golden State (other-worldly snipers), the rest of the league relies way too heavily on 3PT shooting. The in-between game and physicality in which basketball is being played at on this level...is severely lacking.

I just wanna see more post ups, utilization of the midrange, some physicality, and for the BIGS to come back to life.

[Showtime80']

Thank you IGOTGAME!!!

Guys like Duncan, Aldridge and even Shawn Livingston for God's sake have NO TROUBLE getting the ball in the post WHENEVER they want it. Difference is, they have COMPETENT PASSERS AROUND THEM!!! They also are very good at getting position.

It doesn't matter if you have Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Mo Cheeks or Tiny Archibald running the PG spot if your center is Dwight Howard or DeAndre Jordan who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH THE BALL IN THE POST!!!

By the same token, it wouldn't matter if you have Olajuwon, Kareem, Moses, Ewing or McHale in the post if your PG is a SCORE FIRST KNUCKLE HEAD like Lillard, Westbrook, Lowry, Rose or Irving who are NEVER going to throw an entry pass to the post unless the player is absolutely open and forget about a re-post because that ain't happening!

The NBA has become a trigger happy 3 point shooting offensive flow killing spectacle led by the modern SCORE FIRST PG's due to the true low post centers and pass first PG's becoming EXTINT in the modern NBA.

[Nikola_]

Why people act in these discussions like every team had great center in the 80s/90s? That simply isnt true. More great centers, but cmon?

Bulls dominated the 90s without one.

[LAZERUSS]

doesnt matter because it wasnt a part of his regular arsenal to consistently keep defenses honest with.

Go watch the 1970 NBA Finals, they basically let any guard dribble the ball right to the paint 15 or so feet out unimpeded before handchecking and a crowded paint come into fruition.

If 70s guys actually had unstoppable range, with the defense having to guess where theyre going to launch from very far out, it would give them much more ability to stretch the defense and break it (if you get a defender to contest 30 feet out, you can blow by leaving the defense completely compromised, and if the defender doesnt heavily contest, you're getting hit with the most efficient shot in basketball, a steph curry 3 pt shot).

I watched that 70 video, and Frazier was right with West from before the half court line on. West couldn't have launched an open shot at any time in that sequence.

Secondly...there was no 3pt shot before 1979. The current NBA just shot .354 from the arc this past season. There is no way a coach would allow players to take 30 foot shots and shooting 35% in the process.

Now, I could argue that players would have have adapted to the 3pt line. FT shooting is no better today than it was in the last 50's. So, yes, players would have learned to shoot the 3 then, just as they do now. But, keep in mind that we have had the 3pt line since the late 70's (and the ABA before that)...and it has just become a major weapon in the last 10-15 years. So, it would have taken players from the 70's, probably a good 10-15+ years to begin to make it a truly efficient weapon.

[Euroleague]

Euroleague is about 10 times more physical than the NBA.

That is a fact.

I think NCAA basketball is also a lot more physical than the NBA, even though the NCAA also keeps changing its rules to become softer, because they are trying to follow what the NBA wants.

Pretty much every single player that has played Euroleague and NBA both, regardless of their nationality, says Euroleague is tons more physical than the NBA, and that the NBA has much weaker defense than Euroleague, and that the NBA is a much softer league.

Even numerous NBA coaches, that have only watched Euroleague and not coached in it, have said the same thing.

In Europe, most astute basketball fans consider the NBA to be a sports entertainment show, like the WWE, and not an actual sports competition, due to how much of a pansy soft ass candy league it is.

Honestly, there are numerous pro basketball leagues, from all around the world, that have much more physicality and much tougher defensive play than the NBA does.

I don't think it's a coincidence either, that the basketball leagues around the world that are the softest, have the least physicality, and have the worst defense, are the ones that model themselves after the NBA....like the leagues in China, Philippines, Puerto Rico, etc.

[warriorfan]

Lets watch the great jerry West while hes getting hounded up the court in a Finals series from the 70s, with forearm shivers if he goes one way, and grabbin the hips if he goes another.



http://i.giphy.com/lHgJVSajXVYoU.gif


:eek: :rolleyes:


The fact of the matter is, if you watch these whole series from the 70s, players were always trying to work their way to a contested, sweet spot jumper like 15 feet from the hoop, which they didnt hit at great rates because of how contested shots that close to the hoop are. This is compounded by role players from that era having absolutely no range, so all the defenders basically already have a foot inside the paint.


Imagine if Jerry West could do this ..


http://i.giphy.com/xzXwjBZ1L395K.gif


just pull up from 30 and drain with ease .. the defense would have to be ready to leap at him that far out, at any second, which if they do gives the ball handler free reign to blow right by (you cant handcheck while youre in the air).

But in Jerry Wests case the defense knows he's looking to dribble the ball as close to the hoop as possible, hes never going to pull up from super deep, so you can sag off, hell, they even let him dribble with his right hand while going left .. :facepalm And hubie talking about pressure and physicality lmao. In the paint sure. Thats what happens when role players cant shoot and there's absolutely no spacing.



Seriously go WATCH these games on youtube.. the perimeter play is just not impressive at all. Centers are amazing, but I do wonder why there's a lack of fronting aggressiveness in ball denial. Seems like the defense just lets these guys catch in the post and doesnt even contest .. today it feels like a rugby scrum before the catch anytime a player wants to post up.

this thread just got ended

its hilarious how people try to not act like the cocaine 70's was the weakest no D era in the history of the league

[senelcoolidge]

Nobody wants to watch basketball with scores in the 80's

Thus the NBA softened and watered down the game for the casuals. It's all open 3 pointers and clear lanes to the basket..sorry but that's just boring.

[plowking]

It's ignorance, not that these youngsters actually know the truth and don't want to admit it. These youngsters simply don't know any better. Look at some of the responses on this thread already, completely dismissing the opinion of one of the greatest bball minds to have ever walked this planet.

I've been saying the same that Hubie said over and over on this board but the truth flies right over these youngsters heads. They just can't fathom a point in time when the game was just better. Because the rules forced players to be more well rounded. Not the hands off, soft rules, p&r to free up perimeter players without having to beat their man, wide spacing era. This is not bball at the highest level but a dumbed down version of it.

You shouting ignorance when you didn't even know who defended Jordan in the first 3 games of the 96 finals. Stop using "youngsters" as if you're clued in. :oldlol:

This never became a talking point in the media until Steph Curry started dominating. They see a 6'3, boyish looking dude dominating, and they all start shouting that something has to be wrong with the era. When Bron was dominating not a word was said.

[LAZERUSS]

Thus the NBA softened and watered down the game for the casuals. It's all open 3 pointers and clear lanes to the basket..sorry but that's just boring.

EXACTLY.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The current NBA has become the 2016 ASG, except with slightly better defense.

[Showtime80']

Uh, Plowking, Kobe was talking about this stuff way back in 2014, BEFORE CURRY EVER EVEN MADE A CONFERENCE FINAL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

[plowking]

Uh, Plowking, Kobe was talking about this stuff way back in 2014, BEFORE CURRY EVER EVEN MADE A CONFERENCE FINAL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

Kobe is full of shit half the time. Like Magic, he has contradicted himself so many times.

Wilt and Russell said the same thing about the 80's and 90's btw. They said the game got softer and easier. There simply wasn't internet coverage where every old grumpy idiot could voice their opinion.

We get it, everything was better back in the day. Dial up internet is better than what we have today. Sprinters were quicker back in the day. Swimmers too. Everything is just going backwards apparently, and we have a bunch of old people to tell you so.

It literally baffles me that people like you probably sit here and do all this "back in my day" stuff, but when your parents or someone far older than you tries to preach the same shit, you brush it off. :oldlol:
Wilt literally said the same thing about Bird/Magic and Jordan, but I bet none of you will give it the slightest bit of merit.

[Da_Realist]

Why people act in these discussions like every team had great center in the 80s/90s? That simply isnt true. More great centers, but cmon?

Bulls dominated the 90s without one.

Post play was still prominent. All the great perimeter players posted up because once you master it, you are guaranteed a good shot anytime you want. Perimeter players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Drexler, Bernard King, Penny, Kobe, Payton, Pippen, Mashburn, Aguirre, Dantley, Terry Cummings, Worthy, etc could all generate a decent look for themselves or their teammates through posting up.

Imagine Durant as a taller version of Worthy. :eek: He could get a good shot anytime he wanted! And he wouldn't need to jack up long contested threes in the clutch. How efficient would he be if he could go into the post, catch the entry pass and shoot over his defender? He could see any double and easily pass to his open teammates. Just like that, OKC has something they can depend on in the clutch and would have closed GSW out.

[Euroleague]

doesnt matter because it wasnt a part of his regular arsenal to consistently keep defenses honest with.

Go watch the 1970 NBA Finals, they basically let any guard dribble the ball right to the paint 15 or so feet out unimpeded before handchecking and a crowded paint come into fruition.

If 70s guys actually had unstoppable range, with the defense having to guess where theyre going to launch from very far out, it would give them much more ability to stretch the defense and break it (if you get a defender to contest 30 feet out, you can blow by leaving the defense completely compromised, and if the defender doesnt heavily contest, you're getting hit with the most efficient shot in basketball, a steph curry 3 pt shot).

So let me get this straight.....

Your argument is this....

In the 70s NBA, they defended from the basket out to 15 feet...

Therefore, the current NBA, which defends absolutely NO PLACE ON THE ENTIRE 94 X 50 COURT, is "better defensively"...


Yeah, that makes total sense, and is completely logical.

[Showtime80']

Here's a nice little list for you Nikola that will give you a better idea about the center depth in the 80's, remember just 23 teams!!!

Kareem
Hakeem
Sampson
Moses
Parish
Ewing
Sikma
Gilmore
Donaldson
Eaton
Laimbeer
Ruland
Daugherty
Duckworth
Issel
Cartwright
Mychael Thompson
Joe Barry Carol

That's 18 CENTERS!!!!! That had an impact in the 1980's with 6 hall of famers and ALL OF THEM except for Mychael Thompson making at least 1 ALL STAR TEAM!!!

All of them could give you 18ppg+ and 8-10 rbs with consistent low post scoring on ANY GIVEN NIGHT!!!

Go ahead and make the pathetic list of centers from 2010 to 2016 and put it up against this one!

[Euroleague]

Kobe is full of shit half the time. Like Magic, he has contradicted himself so many times.

Wilt and Russell said the same thing about the 80's and 90's btw. They said the game got softer and easier. There simply wasn't internet coverage where every old grumpy idiot could voice their opinion.

We get it, everything was better back in the day. Dial up internet is better than what we have today. Sprinters were quicker back in the day. Swimmers too. Everything is just going backwards apparently, and we have a bunch of old people to tell you so.

It literally baffles me that people like you probably sit here and do all this "back in my day" stuff, but when your parents or someone far older than you tries to preach the same shit, you brush it off. :oldlol:
Wilt literally said the same thing about Bird/Magic and Jordan, but I bet none of you will give it the slightest bit of merit.


So according to you, Wilt Chamberlain, Charles Barkley (insert whatever "old" jealous retired NBA player), random people on the internet, and casual basketball fans.....

what they say or said regarding the NBA, holds the same amount of merit as what Hubie Brown says regarding the NBA....

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l4KhTSWTlozX3flvi/200.gif

[NBAGOAT]

Post play was still prominent. All the great perimeter players posted up because once you master it, you are guaranteed a good shot anytime you want. Perimeter players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Drexler, Bernard King, Penny, Kobe, Payton, Pippen, Mashburn, Aguirre, Dantley, Terry Cummings, Worthy, etc could all generate a decent look for themselves or their teammates through posting up.

Imagine Durant as a taller version of Worthy. :eek: He could get a good shot anytime he wanted! And he wouldn't need to jack up long contested threes in the clutch. How efficient would he be if he could go into the post, catch the entry pass and shoot over his defender? He could see any double and easily pass to his open teammates. Just like that, OKC has something they can depend on in the clutch and would have closed GSW out.

worthy is one of the better post up wings of all time. Some of the guys you listed even if they looked good in the post weren't efficient there at all like Mashburn. Anyway, Durant is so lanky he could never play like Worthy. He does exactly what you say right now; he takes mostly turnaround jumpers when he's posting up but it's hard to be efficient when the turn around jumper is your go to move. Durant is ball handling too much but running more off ball stuff off screens like bird or miller is his strength.

[Showtime80']

That's where you're wrong Plowking! Sure the NBA had cleaned up a lot of its act in the 1980's in comparison to the 60's and 70's but the game kept A LOT OF IT'S PHYSICALITY!!!! Notice that Wilt or Russell NEVER criticized the 80's players for being fundamentally flawed or soft the way they do now a days. They're whole point was that the game was more physical in the 1960's which it was in some aspects but still guys like Kareem who WRECKED a lot of those 60's guys were still going strong in the 80's.

I grew up in the 80's and 90's and HAVE NO PROBLEM admitting that 1960's and 70's rock and roll and (music in general) blow ANYTHING that is going on today out of the water!!!! As well as 80's early 90's hip hop overall killing everything that came after!

The 80's NBA was like the 1960's-70's rock and roll with guys like Lennon, Jagger, Plant, Hendrix, Morrison and Wilson leading the way!

You just can't touch a decade were all of these names came together:

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Isiah
Kareem
Moses
Dr J
Wilkins
Stockton
Malone
Drexler
Mullin
Olajuwon
Barkley
Ewing
McHale
Gervin

That was the PEAK of NBA basketball and thanks to YOUTUBE younger generations can see what the GOLDEN AGE was all about!!!

[NBAGOAT]

Save for Golden State (other-worldly snipers), the rest of the league relies way too heavily on 3PT shooting. The in-between game and physicality in which basketball is being played at on this level...is severely lacking.

I just wanna see more post ups, utilization of the midrange, some physicality, and for the BIGS to come back to life.

and I'm pretty sure this was a complaint in the 90's too except for post ups. Sure everyone enjoys seeing Hakeem, McHale, or Shaq in the post but there were other teams who were too reliant on posting up when they weren't good at it. It can come back if you have someone that good at it but doubt the midrange will. The best midrange guys still only shoot like 50% from there so teams will always prefer shots close to the basket or 3's.

[Showtime80']

I disagree NBAGoat!

Nobody HAS EVER complained about post ups. They are an integral part of the game and when done the right way can be a very entertaining aspect of basketball as well. The game becomes EASIER for every body else when you have a solid low post attack specially in the half court. I'm getting sick and tired of modern PG's dribbling for 10 seconds to run out the shot clock or weaving a few passes around the perimeter only to take damn FADE AWAY THREE!!!

The general complaint from the mid 90's onward was that the game became TOO SLOW, LOW SCORING AND PHYSICAL!!! Pat Riley and Mike Fratello (With the Cavs) showed the league that you could compete with Michael Jordan, Drexler, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson and Olajuwon if you just SLOWED THE GAME DOWN and turned it into a slug fest! Like Fratello said in 1995 I think "It looks a hell of a lot better on paper to loose 94-86 than 120-100"

And that was the attitude that DESTROYED offensive flow in the 1990's. People blame the Bad Boy Pistons but forget that those guys COULD SCORE WITH THE BEST OF THEM!!! Check out their series against the Blazers in 1990 which was played at Portland's pace.

[NBAGOAT]

I disagree NBAGoat!

Nobody HAS EVER complained about post ups. They are an integral part of the game and when done the right way can be a very entertaining aspect of basketball as well. The game becomes EASIER for every body else when you have a solid low post attack specially in the half court. I'm getting sick and tired of modern PG's dribbling for 10 seconds to run out the shot clock or weaving a few passes around the perimeter only to take damn FADE AWAY THREE!!!

The general complaint from the mid 90's onward was that the game became TOO SLOW, LOW SCORING AND PHYSICAL!!! Pat Riley and Mike Fratello (With the Cavs) showed the league that you could compete with Michael Jordan, Drexler, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson and Olajuwon if you just SLOWED THE GAME DOWN and turned it into a slug fest! Like Fratello said in 1995 I think "It looks a hell of a lot better on paper to loose 94-86 than 120-100"

And that was the attitude that DESTROYED offensive flow in the 1990's. People blame the Bad Boy Pistons but forget that those guys COULD SCORE WITH THE BEST OF THEM!!! Check out their series against the Blazers in 1990 which was played at Portland's pace.

Ofc but there are a lot teams who did not have big men who could post up like the guys I listed and didn't exactly do it the "right way". Just like it can be frustrating to see a team miss 5 3 pointers in a row, it can be frustrating to see a team miss 5 hook shots in a row.

[KelticForce1349]

The NBA went from taped delay to primetime. That is a huge marker of success but with that success came some compromises. The push to reach more (casual) fans has changed what is stressed as important. That filters all the way down the chain to youth basketball.

Sponsors started to bring in money (good), cable network and then the internet brought 24/7 exposure (good) and the Jordan effect happened (singular talent that had amazing success by opposing the status quo and becoming the most popular athlete ever).

Now everyone from ballers to the league itself wants to recreate that. Don't get it twisted -- the league earned more money off Jordan than he ever earned. How many franchises were added during Jordan's career? I can think of five. Cha Ching. Plus... who do you think generated the mass hysteria over the Dream Team? Take Jordan off the team and they would have generated as much excitement as Dream Team II. Everyone wants to be like Mike.

The NBA has a lot riding on its success. So when it saw the quality eroding it changed the rules to hide it. The networks broadcasting it also has a lot riding on the success of the league so instead of highlighting problem areas, they focus on creating superstars even when your eyes are telling you the guy is an inefficient, low IQ chucker (hello Russell Westbrook!). Instead of talking about the bad shots and misses that kill his team, they focus on his "heart". Any kid watching wants to be just like him because he's made to look like a hero for playing the way he does.

So the league has become more individualized. Everyone wants to be the next billionaire baller so they find a niche and milk it for all it's worth. That's why most players today are one dimensional. It takes too much work to develop a post game so no one tries. Team-focused PG's aren't glamorized so everyone would rather be an SG. Ball movement is dead especially at the end of games because the stars feel tremendous pressure to be the hero or they will hear all about it from this monster the media has grown into where even bloggers and message boards have a (loud) voice. Stars need to win the game or die trying. Anything else is soft and beta.

The over-reliance of stats and accolades by casual fans that don't have the understanding to put them in the right context is also destroying the product but that's a different, more convoluted discussion.



:cheers: Absolutely beautiful post sir! You had me nodding my head and saying amen like I was possessed by some religious spirit.

I just want to add that I can understand why some of the younger NBA fans don't like hearing Hubie's thoughts on the game today. I get it, it sucks being told that the best thing already happened before you had a chance to see it for yourself. Boxing might be the only sport where damn near everyone is ok with the 70's and 80's being the golden age of the sport.

Not too many of these kids will prop of the latest guy to put on a pair of gloves and say he is better than Ali. It's strange how they flip the script and go after Jordan with a vengeance. These same people will sit here and post how John Stockton couldn't start for most teams today. "Stockton was just a glorified Delevadova with monster PF to pass to. Of course...Malone would suck too if he had to play night-after-night against the likes of Udonis Haslem, Marcus Morris, Amir Johnson! Sorry old-timersssssssssss!!!!!

Anyway...those who don't have a healthy respect for Hubie Brown don't fully appreciate the game of Basketball.

[Da_Realist]

worthy is one of the better post up wings of all time. Some of the guys you listed even if they looked good in the post weren't efficient there at all like Mashburn. Anyway, Durant is so lanky he could never play like Worthy. He does exactly what you say right now; he takes mostly turnaround jumpers when he's posting up but it's hard to be efficient when the turn around jumper is your go to move. Durant is ball handling too much but running more off ball stuff off screens like bird or miller is his strength.

You're being nit-picky and taking the comparison way too literally. Kevin with a post game would be better because he would have another option of scoring that he really doesn't have right now. Lack of a post game would make him and his team more dependable when you need a clutch basket because there is nothing Iggy or anyone else can do with a talented 6'11" guy shooting a short midrange shot over the defense. Right now he needs to get the ball at the top of the key and beat his man off the dribble or shoot a long, contested shot. Not efficient and very easy to defend when the defense knows what's coming.

He's just one example of how the league would improve. They would have absolutely beaten GSW doing this instead of him and Westbrook trying to beat double teams on the perimeter.

[Da_Realist]

If Shaun Livingston can make a living posting up, Durant could have too. Livingston gets any shot he wants and he's very effective.

[NBAGOAT]

You're being nit-picky and taking the comparison way too literally. Kevin with a post game would be better because he would have another option of scoring that he really doesn't have right now. Lack of a post game would make him and his team more dependable when you need a clutch basket because there is nothing Iggy or anyone else can do with a talented 6'11" guy shooting a short midrange shot over the defense. Right now he needs to get the ball at the top of the key and beat his man off the dribble or shoot a long, contested shot. Not efficient and very easy to defend when the defense knows what's coming.

He's just one example of how the league would improve. They would have absolutely beaten GSW doing this instead of him and Westbrook trying to beat double teams on the perimeter.

again his body frame makes it difficult to get good position closer to the basket. They also would've beaten GSW if they had used less iso ball down the stretch in game 6. Also his post game isn't great but he has one as evidenced by this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_muizwtF7w

[nba_55]

Kobe is full of shit half the time. Like Magic, he has contradicted himself so many times.

Wilt and Russell said the same thing about the 80's and 90's btw. They said the game got softer and easier. There simply wasn't internet coverage where every old grumpy idiot could voice their opinion.

We get it, everything was better back in the day. Dial up internet is better than what we have today. Sprinters were quicker back in the day. Swimmers too. Everything is just going backwards apparently, and we have a bunch of old people to tell you so.

It literally baffles me that people like you probably sit here and do all this "back in my day" stuff, but when your parents or someone far older than you tries to preach the same shit, you brush it off. :oldlol:
Wilt literally said the same thing about Bird/Magic and Jordan, but I bet none of you will give it the slightest bit of merit.

This is something I want these Jordan and 80's fans to address. They always avoid explaining why guys like Russell and Wilt thought the league was softer in the 80's and the 90's.

[Showtime80']

Awesome post Da Realist!!! Raising a glass of Tito's Vodka with Grapefruit juice from Puerto Rico in your direction, always on point!

And a great little sentence by KelticForce:

"I get it, it sucks being told that the best thing already happened before you had a chance to see it for yourself"

That encapsulates a lot of it right there and where a lot of this "victim of the moment" glorification is rooted. NOBODY wants to arrive late to the party of the century but Jesus Christ if you have AUDIO AND VIDEO of that damn party you can still see it was bigger and better than the sh!t you went to (examples, Woodstock 69', Studio 54, Sunset Strip in the 70's-80's)

Great example with Boxing as well, that 1960s and 70's heavyweight division and 70's and 80's welter and middle weights is just HEAD AND SHOULDERS above ANYTHING that came before or after and I'm a die hard Felix Tito Trinidad fan (Go PR)

Like someone once said, "The revolution will be televised", in the 1980's NBA it ACTUALLY WAS!!!

[livinglegend]

Wilt said he would drop 70 ppg in the 90's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Russell said he would still win atleast 11 rings in the 90's and it would easier winning them!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The history is repeating itself again!!!!!!
Old delusional losers think their era is better!!!!! Nothing new!!!!!!!!
In my prime time, things were harder!!! In my prime, tv shows were better!!!!! ME, I, MYSELF!!!

[livinglegend]

Awesome post Da Realist!!! Raising a glass of Tito's Vodka with Grapefruit juice from Puerto Rico in your direction, always on point!

And a great little sentence by KelticForce:

"I get it, it sucks being told that the best thing already happened before you had a chance to see it for yourself"

That encapsulates a lot of it right there and where a lot of this "victim of the moment" glorification is rooted. NOBODY wants to arrive late to the party of the century but Jesus Christ if you have AUDIO AND VIDEO of that damn party you can still see it was bigger and better than the sh!t you went to (examples, Woodstock 69', Studio 54, Sunset Strip in the 70's-80's)

Great example with Boxing as well, that 1960s and 70's heavyweight division and 70's and 80's welter and middle weights is just HEAD AND SHOULDERS above ANYTHING that came before or after and I'm a die hard Felix Tito Trinidad fan (Go PR)

Like someone once said, "The revolution will be televised", in the 1980's NBA it ACTUALLY WAS!!!

Go watch 1980's games replays. Leave us alone and let us enjoy today's game.
We got your opinion. You don't have to repeat it 1000 times.
You won't change anyone's opinion by repeating it over and over again.

[Showtime80']

The league was softer in the 1980's than it was in the 60's, there is no denying that. The NBA was in its infancy back then and guys like Wilt and Russell stood out over EVERYBODY in the early days and thus the way to deal with them was definitely very violent!!!

However, even though the NBA in the 80's was less VIOLENT than in the 60's it was still REALLY PHYSICAL AND VICIOUS!!!! With handchecking and forearm bars in full effect, guys still taking each other out in mid air and no flagrant foul rule, the intimidation factor and physicality were still as present as ever in that decade! Go watch some of the blows and physical contact Jordan use to endure when he drove to the basket, he was ALMOST ALWAYS taking two to three guys with him towards the rim! Which makes his strength, body control and jumping ability even that much more impressive!!!

One thing YOU NEVER HEARD guys from the 60's or 70's say about the 80's players is how FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED AND HAD LOW BASKETBALL IQ like you see A TON of people saying about the NBA today.

Go watch ANY SPECIAL on Magic, Bird, Kareem, Olajuwon, Isiah, Dr J or Moses and hear ANY of the superstars from the 60's like Russell, West, Reed, Cunningham, Pettit, Baylor, Cowens, Frazier and yes EVEN WILT absolutely GUSHING COMPLIMENTS in the direction of those 80's guys! They appreciated the similar FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND AND SMART way those guys played the game pretty much the same way they did.

[Showtime80']

Here are the videos of Steve Kerr and Kobe, two guys that played and coach in the modern game talking about the softness of the current era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

Go find me a video of an 80's player or coach talking about how "soft" it was in that decade!

I'll wait...

[tpols]

If Shaun Livingston can make a living posting up, Durant could have too. Livingston gets any shot he wants and he's very effective.

Shaun Livingston has taken vast majority of his shots from the "sweet spot" 10-16 ft range that you see all the old timers work their way too. He plays just like them. And he has shot 38% from there in the playoffs. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson otoh, right now, are shooting 41% and 45% respectively from the 3 pt line and beyond !!


There's a reason Shaun rides the bench in todays NBA and guys like Curry are MVP of the league.. that style of play is incredibly inefficient by comparison. Even if you gave Livingston a +10% superstar boost to his percentage on that spot on the floor, it STILL doesnt come close to touching what Klay and Curry are doing.



And as far as softness goes, watch Shaun when he posted the Thunder up. He was getting bodied ALL DAY. Which reinforces the point that its MUCH easier to handcheck and body up on guys that play like Shaun do (back to the basket, midrange) vs trying to physically check guys who face up and drive from range.

[livinglegend]

Here are the videos of Steve Kerr and Kobe, two guys that played and coach in the modern game talking about the softness of the current era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHoD9UCBgcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

Go find me a video of an 80's player or coach talking about how "soft" it was in that decade!

I'll wait...

There are hardly any videos of 80's players talking about the game because Internet and the media was nothing compared to what it is now.

[Showtime80']

That's the whole point tpols!

Shaun Livingston is a 6'7 scrawny 185 pound scrub with a reconstructed knee who only has a turnaround jumper in his back to the basket arsenal. Believe me he would still be riding the bench in the 80's and 90's!

The point is that he gets set in the post position BETTER THAN 90% OF THE MODERN NBA!!! Which is pathetic in itself!!!

The complaint comes from watching PHYSICALLY IMPOSING GUYS like Howard, Cousins, DeAndre, LeBron, Love, Durant, Davis to name a few have basically NO ABILITY TO GET CONSISTENT POST UP OPORTUNITIES!!!

[Da_Realist]

Shaun Livingston has taken vast majority of his shots from the "sweet spot" 10-16 ft range that you see all the old timers work their way too. He plays just like them. And he has shot 38% from there in the playoffs. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson otoh, right now, are shooting 41% and 45% respectively from the 3 pt line and beyond !!


There's a reason Shaun rides the bench in todays NBA and guys like Curry are MVP of the league.. that style of play is incredibly inefficient by comparison. Even if you gave Livingston a +10% superstar boost to his percentage on that spot on the floor, it STILL doesnt come close to touching what Klay and Curry are doing.



And as far as softness goes, watch Shaun when he posted the Thunder up. He was getting bodied ALL DAY. Which reinforces the point that its MUCH easier to handcheck and body up on guys that play like Shaun do (back to the basket, midrange) vs trying to physically check guys who face up and drive from range.

You're trying too hard. I listed Shaun because he's a little guy still able to get positioning and scoring from the post. Durant could have had an effective post game if he had worked for it and he would be better because of it. He wouldn't need to be MJ or Kobe and he wouldn't need to be Olajuwon or McHale either. But he could have had another (more dependable) option if he had developed a post game. It's better than jacking up threes because you have no other option. No one is Curry except Curry.

[Da_Realist]

That's the whole point tpols!

Shaun Livingston is a 6'7 scrawny 185 pound scrub with a reconstructed knee who only has a turnaround jumper in his back to the basket arsenal. Believe me he would still be riding the bench in the 80's and 90's!

The point is that he gets set in the post position BETTER THAN 90% OF THE MODERN NBA!!! Which is pathetic in itself!!!

The complaint comes from watching PHYSICALLY IMPOSING GUYS like Howard, Cousins, DeAndre, LeBron, Love, Durant, Davis to name a few have basically NO ABILITY TO GET CONSISTENT POST UP OPORTUNITIES!!!

You said it better than I did. :applause:

[livinglegend]

Anyways, I hope the youngster don't let these old delusional nostalgic losers push them around with their outdated thoughts. These grumpy old men are the biggest enemies of evolution. DO NOT LET THEM PUSH YOU AROUND!!!
No matter how much they repeat the same thing, don't ever believe them.
They are sick.

[Showtime80']

Here are two nice little compilations livinglegend and all the youngins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bWc1qTWnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

The 1980's NBA was just HEAVEN!!! What you have now is friggin PURGATORY!!!

[livinglegend]

Here are two nice little compilations livinglegend and all the youngins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bWc1qTWnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

The 1980's NBA was just HEAVEN!!! What you have now is friggin PURGATORY!!!

Keep watching those videos and leave us alone.
We are not wasting time watching those old shits. :applause:
Have fun living in the past!!!:applause: :applause: :applause:

[NBAGOAT]

You're trying too hard. I listed Shaun because he's a little guy still able to get positioning and scoring from the post. Durant could have had an effective post game if he had worked for it and he would be better because of it. He wouldn't need to be MJ or Kobe and he wouldn't need to be Olajuwon or McHale either. But he could have had another (more dependable) option if he had developed a post game. It's better than jacking up threes because you have no other option. No one is Curry except Curry.

not a perfect example because livingston is usually postig up pg's, there's an even bigger size disparity than most sf's have vs Durant and most pg's aren't as strong as most sf's. It's easy to criticize Durant for shooting 3's when he shot poorly these playoffs but it works for him, he hasn't shot below 38% from 3 in the last 5 years and always has a high number of attempts.

[Euroleague]

This is something I want these Jordan and 80's fans to address. They always avoid explaining why guys like Russell and Wilt thought the league was softer in the 80's and the 90's.

The same reason Barkley says the crap he says. Because they were morons.

I guess taking what morons say as fact is an American thing (Trump phenomenon).

[Da_Realist]

not a perfect example because livingston is usually postig up pg's, there's an even bigger size disparity than most sf's have vs Durant and most pg's aren't as strong as most sf's. It's easy to criticize Durant for shooting 3's when he shot poorly these playoffs but it works for him, he hasn't shot below 38% from 3 in the last 5 years and always has a high number of attempts.

You can't see the forest for the trees. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/can-t-see-the-forest-for-the-trees)

[FKAri]

Here are two nice little compilations livinglegend and all the youngins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bWc1qTWnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

The 1980's NBA was just HEAVEN!!! What you have now is friggin PURGATORY!!!
The 90s were better than the 80s. The West was like a DLeague in the 80s. The Lakers got free trips to the finals. You know this.

As for today, guard play is better today then ever before and defenses are smarter today than ever before. But that's about it. It's come at the expense of other things (post play) and there are things that are other problems I have with today's game: they flat out don't call carries anymore, no handchecking means every scrub can get into the lane at will, etc.

I'm giving you an unbiased opinion as I've watched both and I can tell you what's worse and what's better. You still got your rose tinted glasses on tho.

[Indian guy]

:oldlol: @ those with obvious agendas(and we know who they are) taking this as gospel. As if this means anything. Old people have been playing the old>new garbage since the dawn of time. Go read Wilt's A View from Above that came out in '91. He utterly trashed the league. Didn't spare anyone. Said the rules were completely catered towards putting on a show for the crowd and how he'd be a far superior player in the 80's and 90's than he was 2 decades before that. How nobody could shoot anymore. How nobody was playing defense. How the league had totally softened up the rules so taking it to the rack would be easier - and everybody was just dunking because that's what was needed to sell the game. Him and Russell regurgitated the same garbage to an even more extreme level during the '97 top 50 players ceremony. And of course they were speaking the truth, right? They played in the league for so long, won MVPs, championships....how could they not know??? Clearly, no agendas there :rolleyes:

Hubie seems to be basically throwing a tantrum because the game has evolved. I don't know what creativity he's talking about. Personally, there's nothing more coma inducing for me than watching some random 80's game on YT - the offensive playbook consists of little besides post-ups and 19 footers off pin downs. And don't even get me started on the transition defense back then.

The game today has far, far superior ball movement and flow to it. And the more spacing-oriented style of play was all in response to the legalization of zones in 2002. Coaches had no choice but to adapt. You can't just continue to blindly post up bigs or go 1-on-1 from 20-feet in ala the isolation era. Not when defenders are no longer forced to stick to a defender. Zones completely constricted the court, making shooters an absolute necessity to open up the floor for drives and post ups. But then came the advanced statistics, bringing in a new-level of sophistication to the game. You have all kinds of data highlighting the inefficiency of the high-volume post up and mid-range shots, and that's how we ended up with the layups and 3's being the primary means of scoring. Teams are simply smarter today.

[bdreason]

Post play is a chicken and egg argument for me. People seem to assume that teams don't play through the post consistently because they don't have players that can score from the post. While it might be true that there are less proficient post players in the modern era, the real reason teams don't consistently play through the post is because the modern rules make playing through the post (relatively) less efficient.

Modern analytics, combined with modern rules, have shown that attacking off the dribble into the middle of the court is, by far, the most efficient way to score. The reasoning is fairly obvious. By attacking the middle of the court you create the most efficient scoring opportunities, which are FT's and corner 3's. You also create more offensive rebound opportunities. Modern rules also discourage post play. Doubling the post, and recovering from the double is easier with modern defensive rules (zone). They even have a ridiculous rule that states you can't post up for more than 5 seconds. :facepalm

If the modern rules were transferred to the 90's, you would have seen the same response from coaches. Without hand-checking, and without a big standing in the paint (3 sec rule), only a complete moron would come down the court and dump the ball into the post consistently. As a coach, it's your job to figure out the most efficient and effective way to score. In the modern league, that means High P&R/P, corner 3's, and getting to the FT line.

[Hey Yo]

Here are two nice little compilations livinglegend and all the youngins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bWc1qTWnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

The 1980's NBA was just HEAVEN!!! What you have now is friggin PURGATORY!!!
Yet there's still the same amount of teams that were considered contenders (before the season started) in the 80's as there is today.

80's East...Boston, Philly and Detroit (<<< late 80's)

West...Lakers and ????????

Such a huge difference....:rolleyes:

[Showtime80']

Wrong Fkari!

The West from 1980 to 1991 (Magic's career) had a winning% 47% against the East and that was with the NBA moving perennial 80's powerhouse Milwaukee Bucks to the East in 1981!!!

The East from 2003 to 2016 (LeBron's career) has a winning% of 42% against the West!!! Now that is a D-league!!!

Aside from some down years from 1985 to 87 the West was right there with the East in the 1980's with teams like:

Sonics- Early and late 80's
Nuggets- Entire decade
Suns- Early to late 80's
Mavs- Mid to late 80's
Spurs- Early 80's
Rockets- Early to mid 80's
Jazz- Mid to late 80's
Blazers- Early to late 80's

Here are some of the players Showtime dealt with in the West:

Gervin
Dennis Johnson
Nance
Chambers
Moses
Sikma
Drexler
Malone
Stockton
Olajuwon
Sampson
English
Lever
Aguirre
Blackman
Davis

That's just to name a few!!! Compare that to the crap LeBron has faced in the East!!!

In the 90's (specially the mid to late 90's) the NBA became FLOODED with the ME FIRST HIP HOP generation that were basically out get paid and make a brand for themselves along with the high school to pros phenomenon!!!

The 90's produced the "1/2 star players surrounded by superstars" paradigm that also permeated throughout the NBA. The title winning rosters of the 1980's BLOW OUT OF THE WATER those of the 1990's!!!

Hell check out Olajuwon's title team roster of 1994!!!! Pathetic!!!

[Rose'sACL]

Yep. And it won't ever go back. The culture that created a system that taught fundamentals starting at an early age is dead. NBA basketball peaked already. The culture has changed. We live in a highlights-focused world now that started with ESPN. Highlights matter today, not fundamentals, and future stars focus on making highlights starting at 8 years old. Money, fame and publicity reward a nasty crossover, not a bounce pass. Pass first PG's and post up big men are mostly dead and will soon be as extinct as dinosaurs.
shooting and dribbling are the most basic fudamentals of Basketball. Both those things are at an all time high.
People like you have forgotten that shooting is the most basic fundamental after dribbling. 3 players who will be at the top of 3 point shooting chart by the time they retire all play in the current league. All 3 are also great mid range shooter but only use their mid range game when 3s and layips are not available which is a smart move.

[senelcoolidge]

Just out of curiousity since I've retired from playing and I'm not longer a kid on the playground. Do kids these days emulate Lebron and Curry by chucking up shots rather than taking it to the basket or posting up? When I was a kid even with 3 pointers included it was a drive to the basket and post game mostly. Kids wanted to be Jordan and Hakeem the Dream. If you chucked up shots you weren't popular. On the playground it was a lot of up tempo taking it to the basket or inside out with post play.

[Dro]

I believe the difference when reading this is $$$$

Kareem and West making half a million a year.
Players that are 6th men making 15 million today.

It's similar to many sports, the game becomes entertainment. It's entertainment for the casual fan. Players are entertainer athletes now.

I don't think it's a matter of they don't know the fundamentals more so they don't need to use them.

Pure basketball is WNBA...Most of you guys should watch that if you want pure plays and movement.
I do.

[Dro]

shooting and dribbling are the most basic fudamentals of Basketball. Both those things are at an all time high.
People like you have forgotten that shooting is the most basic fundamental after dribbling. 3 players who will be at the top of 3 point shooting chart by the time they retire all play in the current league. All 3 are also great mid range shooter but only use their mid range game when 3s and layips are not available which is a smart move.
Which is practically never. 3's and layups seem to be always available, its whether they make the 3's or not.

[Rose'sACL]

Just out of curiousity since I've retired from playing and I'm not longer a kid on the playground. Do kids these days emulate Lebron and Curry by chucking up shots rather than taking it to the basket or posting up? When I was a kid even with 3 pointers included it was a drive to the basket and post game mostly. Kids wanted to be Jordan and Hakeem the Dream. If you chucked up shots you weren't popular. On the playground it was a lot of up tempo taking it to the basket or inside out with post play.
i just learned from you that LeBron doesn't take it to the rim. I knew NBA was playing tricks with my eyes when i was seeing LeBron Post-ups during the playoffs.

Which is practically never. 3's and layups seem to be always available, its whether they make the 3's or not.
what are you talking about? Klay goes in the post and uses his turn around jumper a lot when 3s are not available.
Also, Golden State gets good looks from 3 point range because of great ball movement and Cavs get good looks from 3 because of someone posting up and someone driving to the rim to create good looks for the shooters.
Big men have learned a new SKILL called shooting from long range to make the game more open. Unlike the rules in the 90s which made the game easy for non-shooting bigs, defenders don't have to stick to their man now if he can't shoot. This rule change has forced big men to learn the SKILL called long range shooting because if they can't shoot then it makes the game very easy for defense.
double teams or sticking close to your man were the only 2 real moves for defenses back in the 90s.

[FKAri]

Wrong Fkari!

The West from 1980 to 1991 (Magic's career) had a winning% 47% against the East and that was with the NBA moving perennial 80's powerhouse Milwaukee Bucks to the East in 1981!!!

The East from 2003 to 2016 (LeBron's career) has a winning% of 42% against the West!!! Now that is a D-league!!!

Aside from some down years from 1985 to 87 the West was right there with the East in the 1980's with teams like:

Sonics- Early and late 80's
Nuggets- Entire decade
Suns- Early to late 80's
Mavs- Mid to late 80's
Spurs- Early 80's
Rockets- Early to mid 80's
Jazz- Mid to late 80's
Blazers- Early to late 80's

Here are some of the players Showtime dealt with in the West:

Gervin
Dennis Johnson
Nance
Chambers
Moses
Sikma
Drexler
Malone
Stockton
Olajuwon
Sampson
English
Lever
Aguirre
Blackman
Davis

That's just to name a few!!! Compare that to the crap LeBron has faced in the East!!!

In the 90's (specially the mid to late 90's) the NBA became FLOODED with the ME FIRST HIP HOP generation that were basically out get paid and make a brand for themselves along with the high school to pros phenomenon!!!

The 90's produced the "1/2 star players surrounded by superstars" paradigm that also permeated throughout the NBA. The title winning rosters of the 1980's BLOW OUT OF THE WATER those of the 1990's!!!

Hell check out Olajuwon's title team roster of 1994!!!! Pathetic!!!
The Showtime Lakers were a stacked superteam as were most of the championship winning rosters (80s Celtics). So you're right they would do pretty well against other teams who played in an era with more parity. The "1-2 superstar + roleplayer paradigm" only exists because not everyone is lucky enough to have a team with James Worthy as its 3rd best player. People were up in arms about the Heat a superteam and their 3rd best was Chris fkin Bosh.

Tho I agree the highschool to pros trend did start in the 90s with a guy like KG (but didn't really get going until the 00's where it became the norm until the ban). And this did hurt the level of play because altho these were talented players most of them weren't able to realize it due to the transition.

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll: it takes way more creativity and mentality to score when you don't have people cloths-lining and body slamming each other.

[Dro]

You shouting ignorance when you didn't even know who defended Jordan in the first 3 games of the 96 finals. Stop using "youngsters" as if you're clued in. :oldlol:

This never became a talking point in the media until Steph Curry started dominating. They see a 6'3, boyish looking dude dominating, and they all start shouting that something has to be wrong with the era. When Bron was dominating not a word was said.
This is a damn lie and you know it....People been bitching about Lebron's free paths to the rim for the last decade damn near...Steph is just RIDICULOUS but lets not act like this is a new topic...

[90sgoat]

That's where you're wrong Plowking! Sure the NBA had cleaned up a lot of its act in the 1980's in comparison to the 60's and 70's but the game kept A LOT OF IT'S PHYSICALITY!!!! Notice that Wilt or Russell NEVER criticized the 80's players for being fundamentally flawed or soft the way they do now a days. They're whole point was that the game was more physical in the 1960's which it was in some aspects but still guys like Kareem who WRECKED a lot of those 60's guys were still going strong in the 80's.

I grew up in the 80's and 90's and HAVE NO PROBLEM admitting that 1960's and 70's rock and roll and (music in general) blow ANYTHING that is going on today out of the water!!!! As well as 80's early 90's hip hop overall killing everything that came after!

The 80's NBA was like the 1960's-70's rock and roll with guys like Lennon, Jagger, Plant, Hendrix, Morrison and Wilson leading the way!

You just can't touch a decade were all of these names came together:

Magic
Bird
Jordan
Isiah
Kareem
Moses
Dr J
Wilkins
Stockton
Malone
Drexler
Mullin
Olajuwon
Barkley
Ewing
McHale
Gervin

That was the PEAK of NBA basketball and thanks to YOUTUBE younger generations can see what the GOLDEN AGE was all about!!!

The fundamental flaw with 'everything is better today' is that basketball has not remained a constant outside the NBA. Music hasn't either and no one, literally NO ONE, will claim mainstream music is as good as 60-70s stuff. A major reason for why modern music sucks is MTV and music videos. Before MTV you got famous on RADIO and that meant you had to be good, you had to be an actual musician. With MTV all that changed into who looks good on camere.

Like with NBA before the big shoe deals (once again MJ unfortunately changing the game for the worse) you had to be a good basketball player to get a good contract.

Lebron got a huge shoe deal without having played a single game of professional basketball and nowadays AAU runs the show and AAU is all about those shoe deals.

Talking to millenials is difficult though because they honestly think appearance is substance, since they have grown up in the social media age where how you look trumps anything else.

Besides, if you remove 100m dash and Usain Bolt (the MJ of athletics), most athletic records are from the 80s and 90s, that includes long jump, thriple jump, 200m and 400m.

[FireDavidKahn]

The fundamental flaw with 'everything is better today' is that basketball has not remained a constant outside the NBA. Music hasn't either and no one, literally NO ONE, will claim mainstream music is as good as 60-70s stuff. A major reason for why modern music sucks is MTV and music videos. Before MTV you got famous on RADIO and that meant you had to be good, you had to be an actual musician. With MTV all that changed into who looks good on camere.

Like with NBA before the big shoe deals (once again MJ unfortunately changing the game for the worse) you had to be a good basketball player to get a good contract.

Lebron got a huge shoe deal without having played a single game of professional basketball and nowadays AAU runs the show and AAU is all about those shoe deals.

Talking to millenials is difficult though because they honestly think appearance is substance, since they have grown up in the social media age where how you look trumps anything else.

Besides, if you remove 100m dash and Usain Bolt (the MJ of athletics), most athletic records are from the 80s and 90s, that includes long jump, thriple jump, 200m and 400m.Wanna know something? They had way less stringent tests on steroids back then...

[Dro]

again his body frame makes it difficult to get good position closer to the basket. They also would've beaten GSW if they had used less iso ball down the stretch in game 6. Also his post game isn't great but he has one as evidenced by this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_muizwtF7w
I disagree, cause if you're correct then my hopes of PG ever developing a post game are out the window....

[90sgoat]

and I'm pretty sure this was a complaint in the 90's too except for post ups. Sure everyone enjoys seeing Hakeem, McHale, or Shaq in the post but there were other teams who were too reliant on posting up when they weren't good at it. It can come back if you have someone that good at it but doubt the midrange will. The best midrange guys still only shoot like 50% from there so teams will always prefer shots close to the basket or 3's.

Nah, there really was more diversity.

Utah Jazz - pick and ROLL (not pop)

Bulls - triangle cerebral motion offense

GSW - Run DMC uptempo

Sonics - tough D, varied offense

Knicks - even tougher D

Indiana - off ball jumpshooting

Hakeem - original post and 3 team

Much more variety, not even close

[Rose'sACL]

no one has still answered why bigs learning to shoot from long range is not a skill?
Shaq couldn't learn to free throws well and we have Ibaka learning to shoot from long range and getting pretty good at it in a few seasons. Ibaka learned to shoot because today's defenses for big men to learn to shoot from long range. Post-ups now a days are used to invite double-teams mostly so that 3 point shooters can get free.
Curry running all over the court to get free is apparently not creative. Setting 2, sometimes even 3 screen in one set to get a shooter free is not creative. Forcing offenses to play stretch 4s is not creative.

[FKAri]

The fundamental flaw with 'everything is better today' is that basketball has not remained a constant outside the NBA. Music hasn't either and no one, literally NO ONE, will claim mainstream music is as good as 60-70s stuff. A major reason for why modern music sucks is MTV and music videos. Before MTV you got famous on RADIO and that meant you had to be good, you had to be an actual musician. With MTV all that changed into who looks good on camere.

Like with NBA before the big shoe deals (once again MJ unfortunately changing the game for the worse) you had to be a good basketball player to get a good contract.

Lebron got a huge shoe deal without having played a single game of professional basketball and nowadays AAU runs the show and AAU is all about those shoe deals.

Talking to millenials is difficult though because they honestly think appearance is substance, since they have grown up in the social media age where how you look trumps anything else.

Besides, if you remove 100m dash and Usain Bolt (the MJ of athletics), most athletic records are from the 80s and 90s, that includes long jump, thriple jump, 200m and 400m.

lol @ athletic records. The 90's was the golden age of steroids. The 00's was the golden age of EPO. PED's are still big today but they aren't as far ahead of the testers as they were in the 90's. Testers were in the stone age and the athletes were in the space age.

[Dro]

Go watch 1980's games replays. Leave us alone and let us enjoy today's game.
We got your opinion. You don't have to repeat it 1000 times.
You won't change anyone's opinion by repeating it over and over again.
Then put him on ignore, or just put the entire thread on ignore...man this shit really pisses you dudes off doesn't it?:lol

Everybody else seems to be able to have a civilized discussion, Rose doesn't agree but he's being civil, same with some others in this thread...Its a basketball DISCUSSION forum.

[90sgoat]

Wanna know something? They had way less stringent tests on steroids back then...

Sure, the US Athletic Federation deliberately hid positive doping tests for years.

However, why is it that Carl Lewis looked like this:


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/carl-lewis-of-the-usa-waves-the-flag-during-a-lap-of-honour-after-he-picture-id53300687

And moder runners look like this:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2015/3/26/1427364418039/Tyson-Gay-009.jpg?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&

http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/article-1344428567956-146cba20000005dc-196716_636x335.jpg

Like with modern NBA players, modern sprinters look like bodybuilders.

Strange that, could it be that widespread roid use from teen years mask the real talents?

[Dro]

Shaun Livingston has taken vast majority of his shots from the "sweet spot" 10-16 ft range that you see all the old timers work their way too. He plays just like them. And he has shot 38% from there in the playoffs. Steph Curry and Klay Thompson otoh, right now, are shooting 41% and 45% respectively from the 3 pt line and beyond !!


There's a reason Shaun rides the bench in todays NBA and guys like Curry are MVP of the league.. that style of play is incredibly inefficient by comparison. Even if you gave Livingston a +10% superstar boost to his percentage on that spot on the floor, it STILL doesnt come close to touching what Klay and Curry are doing.



And as far as softness goes, watch Shaun when he posted the Thunder up. He was getting bodied ALL DAY. Which reinforces the point that its MUCH easier to handcheck and body up on guys that play like Shaun do (back to the basket, midrange) vs trying to physically check guys who face up and drive from range.
Right, because its illegal:confusedshrug:

[Dro]

Here are two nice little compilations livinglegend and all the youngins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bWc1qTWnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD7o6nCv5qw

The 1980's NBA was just HEAVEN!!! What you have now is friggin PURGATORY!!!
You think he's going to watch that?

[tpols]

Right, because its illegal:confusedshrug:


Handchecking/physicality only happened to a slightly larger degree in previous eras, because role players couldnt space the floor, and stars couldnt bait defenders with long range like they can today to get a blow by. In the playoffs especially, rules are pretty much thrown out the window. These guys pull, push, grab, hell, even soccer kick each other in the nuts and pull MMA style takedowns (my boy draymond :pimp: ) on each other all game long.


The real reason for the decrease in "handchecking" against perimeter players is less crowded paints (because better role players), and much better range from stars not allowing the sag off physical style that defenders used to be able to get away with. Basketball has finally reached its peak in terms of TEAM spacing, and efficiency. It took like 40 years after the 3 pt line was introduced for this to happen, but the time has finally come.

[Dresta]

Wilt said he would drop 70 ppg in the 90's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Russell said he would still win atleast 11 rings in the 90's and it would easier winning them!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The history is repeating itself again!!!!!!
Old delusional losers think their era is better!!!!! Nothing new!!!!!!!!
In my prime time, things were harder!!! In my prime, tv shows were better!!!!! ME, I, MYSELF!!!
This stuff is a better description of you than of Wilt or Russell tbh. Guys like that don't have anything to prove; fact is, you never saw basketball then, but want to dismiss those who played it and have been around a long time just because it suits you better to do so (i.e. believing that the era of basketball with which you are completely obsessed is better than mediocre).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Guess my post was randomly deleted... :oldlol:


and I'm pretty sure this was a complaint in the 90's too except for post ups. Sure everyone enjoys seeing Hakeem, McHale, or Shaq in the post but there were other teams who were too reliant on posting up when they weren't good at it. It can come back if you have someone that good at it but doubt the midrange will. The best midrange guys still only shoot like 50% from there so teams will always prefer shots close to the basket or 3's.

Well, there's a lot of evidence showing TOO many teams are overly-reliant on 3's. Teams that don't even have the correct personnel if you will.

In the 90s, you played off your bigs in the middle (Hakeem/Drob/Shaq/Ewing) BUT there were also teams like the Sonics, Jazz and Bulls who were mostly perimeter oriented.

Having said all of that, I get a kick out of posters saying Curry couldn't compete in the late 80s and 90s, the max physicality era. He MAY see a slight dip in shooting efficiency, but dude would be killing it during that time period as well. Definitely.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And why are people bringing up what Wilt and Russell say? There's footage on youtube along with stats that show their ridiculous claims should be taken with a grain of salt.

Pro basketball in the 50s and 60s was in its f*cking infancy. :oldlol:

The 80s and 90s was basically the golden era. You had everything. Defense, physicality, 3PT shooting, midrange, rivalries, story-lines...and the most HOFers of any era thus far.

[Dro]

Handchecking/physicality only happened to a slightly larger degree in previous eras, because role players couldnt space the floor, and stars couldnt bait defenders with long range like they can today to get a blow by. In the playoffs especially, rules are pretty much thrown out the window. These guys pull, push, grab, hell, even soccer kick each other in the nuts and pull MMA style takedowns (my boy draymond :pimp: ) on each other all game long.


The real reason for the decrease in "handchecking" against perimeter players is less crowded paints (because better role players), and much better range from stars not allowing the sag off physical style that defenders used to be able to get away with. Basketball has finally reached its peak in terms of TEAM spacing, and efficiency. It took like 40 years after the 3 pt line was introduced for this to happen, but the time has finally come.
I see what you mean and I understand your point. I'm not against the free flowing game, honestly who can watch the nba and not be entertained by the Warriors or similar teams? I would just like a balance because the nba is ugly when every team is trying to play like GS. You have roberson standing in the corner shooting 3's like he's a real threat from there which makes it easier to defend OKC. I dunno.

I will say in the playoffs though, the physicality is a lot more and the refs allow them to play more...

[Rose'sACL]

And why are people bringing up what Wilt and Russell say? There's footage on youtube along with stats that show their ridiculous claims should be taken with a grain of salt.

Pro basketball in the 50s and 60s was in its f*cking infancy. :oldlol:

The 80s and 90s was basically the golden era. You had everything. Defense, physicality, 3PT shooting, midrange, rivalries, story-lines...and the most HOFers of any era thus far.
Rivalries will die down as the best players in the game become more mature because of a more connected world. CP3 is a fierce competitor and will play as hard as he can against LeBron even though they are great friends. Did Durant and LeBron go easy on each other in 2012 finals? That is the kind of thinking we should expect from players.
They removed hand-checking and gave defenses a bigger weapon of freedom to roam.

[Chadwin]

I don't care how biased you are, you have to admit that it is easier to get by your defender in one on one coverage without handchecking.

[Dro]

I don't care how biased you are, you have to admit that it is easier to get by your defender in one on one coverage without handchecking.
That's what I'm saying, its basic logic...Guys can't crowd the paint and you can't touch them, how would it NOT be easier to get into the lane?

[CuterThanRubio]

Defenders are quicker and help defense is able to cheat off their man and double in the post, you don't need to handcheck when an entire zone can shift to protect the paint.

Perimeter players penetrated MORE OFTEN when handchecking was in place, watch some footage you will see drives to the lane on every play that isn't a post up.

Handchecking wont stop you from getting crossed, ballhandling has improved and someone like AI didn't have trouble blowing past people back then!

The league is more talented from top to bottom, guys like Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins are on bottom feeders, you can't tell me those dudes wouldn't be FEASTING in the 80s and 90s.


You want to talk about soft, players couldn't shoot well enough to they had to SHORTEN THE LINE in the 90s, what a joke!

The 2016 Wolves would be a top 5 team in those days, no question!

[Da_Realist]

So Curry's own coach, a guy who has been involved in the league on some high level capacity for almost 30 years, is a liar. Riiiight. :durantunimpressed:

[Smoke117]

If this was 20 years ago Stephen Curfraud would merely be an all star and guys like Isaiah Thomas would be bench warmers.

[CuterThanRubio]

Right, 20 years ago Curry would be a benchwarmer and LeBron would be Harold Miner....

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/tucson.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/6/78/67825f1e-da06-11e3-b5ed-001a4bcf887a/5371182835762.preview-620.jpg


:kobe:

GET REAL!

[hitmanyr2k]

You're trying too hard. I listed Shaun because he's a little guy still able to get positioning and scoring from the post. Durant could have had an effective post game if he had worked for it and he would be better because of it. He wouldn't need to be MJ or Kobe and he wouldn't need to be Olajuwon or McHale either. But he could have had another (more dependable) option if he had developed a post game. It's better than jacking up threes because you have no other option. No one is Curry except Curry.

Exactly. I said this 5 years ago :oldlol:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6070213&postcount=113


Who cares about age? Lebron has been in the league for 8 freakin seasons. Plenty of players had a low/high post back-to-the-basket game by their 8th season. The Dallas Mavericks are disrespecting Lebron putting Jason Kidd on him at times and he can't even take advantage of the matchup. Put Jason Kidd on Kobe Bryant and he's getting posted up. Put Jason Kidd on Carmelo Anthony and he's getting posted up. In the past? Put Jason Kidd on Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Penny Hardaway, his teammate Nick Anderson, Mitch Richmond, Glen Rice, Steve Smith and he's getting posted up. Hell, even Bonzi Wells comes to mind. He had a nice post game in only his 2nd year in the league.

I've been saying the last 2 years there's no reason for a player of that size with that kind of athleticism and speed not to have a post game. When those driving lanes are cut off and your shot isn't falling it's just another weapon to go to in your arsenal. It's rare that something bad comes out of a good post game. It's a high percentage shot. It's a matchup nightmare when you have a smaller player guarding you. It forces the defense to react and double which opens up passing lanes and shooters. Anything is better than sitting on the perimeter looking like an idiot with a midget guarding you.

The same can be said for Kevin Durant. He has all the length in the world and a great shooting touch. He could kill with even an average post game. Who's going to block a jumphook from him with those long arms? Instead he's either getting denied the ball on the perimeter by good defenders, shooting 30 foot shots at the end of games or forced to watch Westbrook take over down the stretch. It's just retarded. He and Lebron need to wise the f*** up.

Lebron at least wised up and developed a post game (and the same year finally won a title) but the fact that Durant is still doing the same shit 5 years later and having to watch a mental midget like Westbrook play hero ball and jack up stupid shots is ridiculous.

[diamenz]

rubio, you're so out of touch with history. just stop. you're young and naive and it's as simple as that.

[Da_Realist]

Exactly. I said this 5 years ago :oldlol:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6070213&postcount=113



Lebron at least wised up and developed a post game (and the same year finally won a title) but the fact that Durant is still doing the same shit 5 years later and having to watch a mental midget like Westbrook play hero ball and jack up stupid shots is ridiculous.

WOW. Very well said. :applause: Had he heeded what you said, he would be playing for the championship tonight.

[UK2K]

Exactly. I said this 5 years ago :oldlol:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6070213&postcount=113



Lebron at least wised up and developed a post game (and the same year finally won a title) but the fact that Durant is still doing the same shit 5 years later and having to watch a mental midget like Westbrook play hero ball and jack up stupid shots is ridiculous.
You can add ABC to that group as well.

[CuterThanRubio]

rubio, you're so out of touch with history. just stop. you're young and naive and it's as simple as that.

I'm not young and naive, I'm wise beyond my years, the voice of REASON, the much needed mouthpiece of modernization, but you are DELUSIONAL and in DENIAL, that is all!


https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/sFhwxZ0UF4B7MMCCxa5vgsaDTbc=/0x263:2039x1622/1310x873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/30627727/78670119.0.jpg

^Steve Kerr boxing out..........

Curry wouldn't find a place in the league back then! (YOU RETARD)

:hammerhead:

[FireDavidKahn]

Sure, the US Athletic Federation deliberately hid positive doping tests for years.

However, why is it that Carl Lewis looked like this:


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/carl-lewis-of-the-usa-waves-the-flag-during-a-lap-of-honour-after-he-picture-id53300687

And moder runners look like this:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2015/3/26/1427364418039/Tyson-Gay-009.jpg?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&

http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/article-1344428567956-146cba20000005dc-196716_636x335.jpg

Like with modern NBA players, modern sprinters look like bodybuilders.

Strange that, could it be that widespread roid use from teen years mask the real talents?
1) Only the uneducated or naive use pictures to try and determine if someone is using steroids or not.
2) Carl Lewis failed 3 drug tests...:facepalm

[90sgoat]

There are definitely tell tale signs of doping, every roid head will tell you, massive deltoid muscles is the major, along oversized quadriceps.

[FireDavidKahn]

There are definitely tell tale signs of doping, every roid head will tell you, massive deltoid muscles is the major, along oversized quadriceps.
Oh I know, I used to be into bodybuilding.

Mountains of evidence throughout the ages clearly indicate that steroids were rampant back then. The science, and desire to bust people, back then was abysmal in trying to catch people. The science simply wasn't caught up with the cheats.

[FireDavidKahn]

The game isn't played the way it is solely because of the length of the 3 point line. The change in the rules on defense encouraged teams to play more pack line, clogging inside the arc, hindering 1 on 1 iso ball, which in turn encouraged teams to play with better ball/player movement on offense to create reversals, off ball screens, and long closeouts, opening up jump shots and basket drives. You can indirectly credit Thibodeau for that.

The Spurs were the 2nd best team in the regular season and were 25th in 3PA and 25th in 3PM. Memphis and Miami both made the playoffs and they took/made even less than San Antonio. Philadelphia was the worst team in the league and they were 9th in makes and 8th in attempts. Half the guys that were in the top 20 of Win Shares this year were mediocre to crappy 3 point shooters. There are a variety of playing styles, you just can't see it.

The game is better now than when it was iso or 2 man PnR every possession down the floor, and much better than watching 1 guy back his man down every possession while 4 guys stand around and watch.

[CuterThanRubio]

Oh I know, I used to be into bodybuilding.

Mountains of evidence throughout the ages clearly indicate that steroids were rampant back then. The science, and desire to bust people, back then was abysmal in trying to catch people. The science simply wasn't caught up with the cheats.

Correct

Look at baseball during the 90s, the juice was flowing!

[Euroleague]

:oldlol: @ those with obvious agendas(and we know who they are) taking this as gospel. As if this means anything. Old people have been playing the old>new garbage since the dawn of time. Go read Wilt's A View from Above that came out in '91. He utterly trashed the league. Didn't spare anyone. Said the rules were completely catered towards putting on a show for the crowd and how he'd be a far superior player in the 80's and 90's than he was 2 decades before that. How nobody could shoot anymore. How nobody was playing defense. How the league had totally softened up the rules so taking it to the rack would be easier - and everybody was just dunking because that's what was needed to sell the game. Him and Russell regurgitated the same garbage to an even more extreme level during the '97 top 50 players ceremony. And of course they were speaking the truth, right? They played in the league for so long, won MVPs, championships....how could they not know??? Clearly, no agendas there :rolleyes:

Hubie seems to be basically throwing a tantrum because the game has evolved. I don't know what creativity he's talking about. Personally, there's nothing more coma inducing for me than watching some random 80's game on YT - the offensive playbook consists of little besides post-ups and 19 footers off pin downs. And don't even get me started on the transition defense back then.

The game today has far, far superior ball movement and flow to it. And the more spacing-oriented style of play was all in response to the legalization of zones in 2002. Coaches had no choice but to adapt. You can't just continue to blindly post up bigs or go 1-on-1 from 20-feet in ala the isolation era. Not when defenders are no longer forced to stick to a defender. Zones completely constricted the court, making shooters an absolute necessity to open up the floor for drives and post ups. But then came the advanced statistics, bringing in a new-level of sophistication to the game. You have all kinds of data highlighting the inefficiency of the high-volume post up and mid-range shots, and that's how we ended up with the layups and 3's being the primary means of scoring. Teams are simply smarter today.

Except that anyone that even knows basic basketball rules, knows that the NBA has no such thing as a zone defense. NBA defensive rules make a zone defense illegal.

Anyone saying otherwise, has no clue what the hell they are talking about in basketball terms.

[Euroleague]

Defenders are quicker and help defense is able to cheat off their man and double in the post, you don't need to handcheck when an entire zone can shift to protect the paint.

Perimeter players penetrated MORE OFTEN when handchecking was in place, watch some footage you will see drives to the lane on every play that isn't a post up.

Handchecking wont stop you from getting crossed, ballhandling has improved and someone like AI didn't have trouble blowing past people back then!

The league is more talented from top to bottom, guys like Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins are on bottom feeders, you can't tell me those dudes wouldn't be FEASTING in the 80s and 90s.


You want to talk about soft, players couldn't shoot well enough to they had to SHORTEN THE LINE in the 90s, what a joke!

The 2016 Wolves would be a top 5 team in those days, no question!

Except for the fact that's not allowed in NBA rules. Why do so many basketball fans not know what a zone defense is?

[ImKobe]

NBA is a business

sure the average NBA player is more athletic and has better handles than those in the 70s, that's what the league wants. Your casual basketball fan doesn't care about the fundamentals of the game. They want to see highlight plays. Handchecking existed until Pistons were excessively doing it to Kobe in the 2004 Finals and Mark Cuban got the league to make changes that allowed star players to get easier buckets.

It's not to say that one era is better than the other because of the fundamentals, to me the problem is that the game is becoming more simplistic. It's all jump shots and going to the basket. A weakling like Curry can average 30 because you can't breathe on a perimeter player without it being a foul.

[Euroleague]

NBA is a business

sure the average NBA player is more athletic and has better handles than those in the 70s, that's what the league wants. Your casual basketball fan doesn't care about the fundamentals of the game. They want to see highlight plays. Handchecking existed until Pistons were excessively doing it to Kobe in the 2004 Finals and Mark Cuban got the league to make changes that allowed star players to get easier buckets.

It's not to say that one era is better than the other because of the fundamentals, to me the problem is that the game is becoming more simplistic. It's all jump shots and going to the basket. A weakling like Curry can average 30 because you can't breathe on a perimeter player without it being a foul.

I believe hand checking was banned long before 2004 actually.

[ImKobe]

I believe hand checking was banned long before 2004 actually.

it was banned from baseline to the FT line in 94


it was completely removed 10 years later

[QUOTE]"So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I

[T_L_P]

Hubie's right. The league is dumbed down. The only ones that won't admit it are the ones that don't want to admit it.

:biggums:

I agree that it's not as creative from a players' perspective, but offensive and defensive scheming have never been more intracite.

20 years ago it was, 'move over there and I'll try to score'.

Now you need to figure out how to beat zone, players shadowing areas of the court, working out a way to get guys open through tons of screen action.

An 80s players would be lost if they had to defend or score on the 2016 Warriors.

[CuterThanRubio]

Except for the fact that's not allowed in NBA rules. Why do so many basketball fans not know what a zone defense is?

[QUOTE]Loosening the rules has allowed the best defensive minds to develop tough double-team schemes where players rotate their assignments. Led by coaches like Tim Thibodeau, formerly of the Bulls, teams have developed hybrid man-zones that flood the ball-side and leave two weak-side defenders covering three guys. It bets the defenders can rotate faster than the offense can move the ball.

[ImKobe]

Except for the fact that's not allowed in NBA rules. Why do so many basketball fans not know what a zone defense is?

Actually, zone defense has been legal since 2001 when they introduced the 3 second rule.

[Showtime80']

People DEFINITELY have the decades confused!!!

The 80's featured some of the best PASSING and TEAMWORK ever seen in NBA history!!! You forget virtually EVERY NBA PLAYER in the 1980's came from the NCAA system with REAL ZONES, NO 3 POINT SHOT to create spacing and no 3 second rule to clear down low which meant you could park 5 players in the paint and basically overcrowd the post!!! Hell Kareem wasn't ALLOWED TO DUNK IN THE 70'S!!!

There is NO ZONE, specially the current NBA's VERSION soft pseudo zone which clears the paint with the 3 second rule that's going to stop the Showtime Lakers from MURDERING the Warriors on the inside with Kareem, Magic and Worthy DOMINATING Bogut, Green and Barnes!!!! Would've been even worst against the 80's Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale, Bird and Walton!!! Those teams are NOT GOING TO BE SHOOTING FADE AWAY THREE'S during key possessions and are certainly not bailing the Warriors out with stupid after that Warriors miss a long three, they are going to be dunking on their heads after a fast break!!!

Hell Adams, Kanter and Ibaka were having A FIELD DAY against the Warriors and should've won in 6 games if Dumb and Dumber (Durant and Westbrook) had a couple of brain cells that that could allow them to make SMART DECISIONS IN CRUNCH TIME!!!!

The 80's Lakers and Celtics were just TOO BIG for this little team which only exists because of the rule changes made in the last 10 years.

Put Curry's little behind against 80's rules with the increased physicality and he would struggle to finish a season, let alone dominate ANYTHING!!!

Curry against the onslaught of the Bad Boy Pistons= RIP!

[CuterThanRubio]

People DEFINITELY have the decades confused!!!

The 80's featured some of the best PASSING and TEAMWORK ever seen in NBA history!!! You forget virtually EVERY NBA PLAYER in the 1980's came from the NCAA system with REAL ZONES, NO 3 POINT SHOT to create spacing and no 3 second rule to clear down low which meant you could park 5 players in the paint and basically overcrowd the post!!! Hell Kareem wasn't ALLOWED TO DUNK IN THE 70'S!!!

There is NO ZONE, specially the current NBA's VERSION soft pseudo zone which clears the paint with the 3 second rule that's going to stop the Showtime Lakers from MURDERING the Warriors on the inside with Kareem, Magic and Worthy DOMINATING Bogut, Green and Barnes!!!! Would've been even worst against the 80's Celtics frontline of Parish, McHale, Bird and Walton!!! Those teams are NOT GOING TO BE SHOOTING FADE AWAY THREE'S during key possessions and are certainly not bailing the Warriors out with stupid after that Warriors miss a long three, they are going to be dunking on their heads after a fast break!!!

Hell Adams, Kanter and Ibaka were having A FIELD DAY against the Warriors and should've won in 6 games if Dumb and Dumber (Durant and Westbrook) had a couple of brain cells that that could allow them to make SMART DECISIONS IN CRUNCH TIME!!!!

The 80's Lakers and Celtics were just TOO BIG for this little team which only exists because of the rule changes made in the last 10 years.

Put Curry's little behind against 80's rules with the increased physicality and he would struggle to finish a season, let alone dominate ANYTHING!!!

Curry against the onslaught of the Bad Boy Pistons= RIP!

Kanter averaged 6ppg and 4reb against GSW, that isn't "having a field day", that is called being a total nonfactor in the series!

Adams averaged 10 and 8, solid, but definitely not a game changer by any means.

Ibaka 12 and 7

Stop making things up!

Did you even watch the games?

Accept it, the Warriors have shown that they are the best team ever up to this point, nothing you say can discredit their accomplishments!

The 80s were horrible, free flowing fastbreak offensives with little defense, scoring was through the roof, teams were averaging 120+ for 82 games!

Don't even get me started on the 90s, three of the highest scoring games in regulation happened in 1990, The Suns dropped 107 at halftime, but defense was better then?

:hammerhead:

[Showtime80']

That's a total of 28ppg and 19rebs from those three OKC scrubs!!! Along with altering and intimidating the Warrior players on their drives to the basket. Can you imaging what the 80's Lakers, Celtics and Pistons front lines would do to the Warriors specially with the old REAL NBA RULES!!!

Free flowing fast breaks and post ups!!! Who knew that two of the most efficient and basic ways to score in basketball allowed teams TO SCORE MORE!!! LOL!!! That's why the present league has resorted to 3 point chucking, NO POST, MID RANGE OR FAST BREAK skills to score the ball efficiently and often!

When Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan are two of the best centers in the league and Russell Dumbrook, Kyle Lowry and Damian Lillard are top PG's you know the post game and fast break attack SUCK!!! These guys would ALL BE COMING off the bench for any of the contending teams in the 1980's! Too dumb to play in a CEREBRAL DECADE where fundamentals and basketball IQ RULED!!!

I can't stress enough the importance of the rule changes towards a softer brand of basketball and the effect it's had on the league and the creation of SOFT JUMP SHOOTING STYLES like those of the Warriors. But don't listen to me, here is Steve Kerr, Kobe Bryant and Hubie Brown again basically stating the same thing:

Hubie- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

Steve- https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=steve+kerr+compares+steve+nas h+steph+curry

Kobe- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

LOL!!! The modern NBA is basically a dumbed down, fundamentally deficient, AAU developed BFF pus!es basically having 3 point chucking exhibitions!!!

Steve Nash and Steph Curry are two time MVP's! Let that sink in for a minute!

[CuterThanRubio]

That's a total of 28ppg and 19rebs from those three OKC scrubs!!! Along with altering and intimidating the Warrior players on their drives to the basket. Can you imaging what the 80's Lakers, Celtics and Pistons front lines would do to the Warriors specially with the old REAL NBA RULES!!!

Free flowing fast breaks and post ups!!! Who knew that two of the most efficient and basic ways to score in basketball allowed teams TO SCORE MORE!!! LOL!!! That's why the present league has resorted to 3 point chucking, NO POST, MID RANGE OR FAST BREAK skills to score the ball efficiently and often!

When Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan are two of the best centers in the league and Russell Dumbrook, Kyle Lowry and Damian Lillard are top PG's you know the post game and fast break attack SUCK!!! These guys would ALL BE COMING off the bench for any of the contending teams in the 1980's! Too dumb to play in a CEREBRAL DECADE where fundamentals and basketball IQ RULED!!!

I can't stress enough the importance of the rule changes towards a softer brand of basketball and the effect it's had on the league and the creation of SOFT JUMP SHOOTING STYLES like those of the Warriors. But don't listen to me, here is Steve Kerr, Kobe Bryant and Hubie Brown again basically stating the same thing:

Hubie- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

Steve- https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=steve+kerr+compares+steve+nas h+steph+curry

Kobe- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk

LOL!!! The modern NBA is basically a dumbed down, fundamentally deficient, AAU developed BFF pus!es basically having 3 point chucking exhibitions!!!

Steve Nash and Steph Curry are two time MVP's! Let that sink in for a minute!


Nash and Curry have revolutionized the game, they are directly responsible for things being the way they are now and the reason you rage on this board on a daily basis! I love it!

(I actually high-fived Nash before, a life changing moment for the both of us, it feels great knowing that our energy combined for a split second and now my supercharged fingertips are being used to spread the revolutionary gospel and enlighten the disbelievers, I'm too powerful now, you can't stop me!)


Curry and Klay both broke the record for most threes in a 7 game series, yet you claim those SCRUBS were altering their gameplan?

The gameplan is to find open shooters, they didn't stop them from doing that whatsoever.

The 80s weren't cerebral, they were drug infested and SLOPPY!

http://media1.giphy.com/media/fOFvWgbkgkfWo/giphy.gif

Great defense Mike!

Accept it!

[Round Mound]

I Want This NBA Back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlbNaXnUV1w

:cry:

[HighFlyer23]

I Want This NBA Back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlbNaXnUV1w

:cry:


Chuck was like a freight train

We have mothers kissing and embracing their NBA player sons at the games in todays NBA

lol

[Im Still Ballin]

FYI the 3 seconds in the key was not really a new rule

It was just the only part of the illegal defense guidelines they still have today

The wordings are slightly different but they mean exactly the same thing

You have to be within armslength of your man (Or just any man today) to be able to camp in the lane indefinitely

The wording pre 2001 under the Illegal Defense Guidelines was... You can be in the paint indefinitely, given your man defender (Because you HAD to be guarding your individual man.. couldn't double off the ball and leave someone open) is determined as "Posted up" if he is adjacent and within 3 feet of the freethrow lane line... Which essentially is the same as "within armslength"

Lmao

Even the 3 seconds rule was more stringent back then

I've probably researched/discussed this topic more than anybody

The clear most hindrance to defenses today are touchy calls on the perimeter/no handchecking... Then defenses eventually evolved around 2008 with Thibs strongside flooding with the Celtics, to combat dominant perimeter players, and forcing ball movement.

However, in the paint; it's still the same as it has always been. There are no gimme fouls like on the perimeter

[Im Still Ballin]

And now the best teams are able to beat the strongside flood with spread pick and roll action, shooters everywhere... Nowdays you flood LeBron on the block, he throws a bullet pass to JR in the corner

The next evolution of defending these shooting frenzy, ball movement squads are heavy switching defenses... Allows you to stick close to shooters on the many PnR/Off-ball screening/pin down actions teams today run...

This is probably an accurate thing to say a few years ago, because many teams over the last 3-4 years incorporate switching defenses deliberately... LeBron's teams in the last 5 years have always been switch heavy... GSW are pretty switch heavy... San Antonio switched a lot this year... But it's switching given the circumstances are right... Sacramento switched a lot on defense this year and got sliced up... Mainly because we did it out of lack of effort/ferocious perimeter defenders

[Im Still Ballin]

And switching was a big part of 90's Illegal Defense basketball too.. It was just a little different because you were much more limited legislatively in how you could do so..

[Solidape]

One thing I no longer see is full court traps, half court traps......hell I don't even see anyone running a full court press, it's like dribbling past half court is automatic now

Rarely do you see players shake and bake to make a play, every play now seems to start with a high pick and roll

Lastly zone D sucks, it sucks at the park when you play ball and it sucks in the nba, I want to see man to man D.

[Im Still Ballin]

One thing I no longer see is full court traps, half court traps......hell I don't even see anyone running a full court press, it's like dribbling past half court is automatic now

Rarely do you see players shake and bake to make a play, every play now seems to start with a high pick and roll

Lastly zone D sucks, it sucks at the park when you play ball and it sucks in the nba, I want to see man to man D.
Shooters too good for a full zone to work in the NBA

But the defense in the NBA is man defense, with zone principles involved... Hybrid of the two if you will. I mean, sagging off an off-ball player with the intention to protect an area of the floor/potential path of an offensive player is essentially zone in principle. Especially given some of the weakside defensive action to flood the paint/preemptively protect the rim.. Also principles of zone...

Personally I think all the NBA needs to do is just bring balance back to the game by giving the traditional center easier opportunity... There hasn't been an MVP center since Shaq in 2000. Mainly because the post up game is so much tougher today

I'd perhaps restrict weakside post defense before the center gains possession, or do something in the form of restricting offball fronting by defenses to shut out post up players... Also extending the back to the basket rule from 5 seconds to 10

[Im Still Ballin]

You make post ups easier/more efficient.. You encourage more impactful bigmen

To me the biggest problem today is not so much offense/defense, as it is perimeter vs big man balance

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's where guards dominate today
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/ball-handler/?dir=1&sort=Points&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

Just absolutely MASSIVE offensive reliance... Some guys able to produce half their offense as a pick and roll ball handler

Chris Paul gets 51.9% of his offense as the ball handler at 0.94 PPP

Curry is the epitome of this ball handler dominance, scoring in at 1.21 PPP, but the thing is his frequency is much lower, in the 20's... GSW uses him in so many different and effective ways

[Im Still Ballin]

Just compare these two things
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/ball-handler/?dir=1&sort=Points&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

and

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/post-up/?sort=Points&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

Players are just able to slice up defenses from the perimeter as the ball handler... Scoring at higher PPP and MUCH larger volumes compared to post ups... No wonder why offenses are so plain and boring.. It's a gold mine the primeter PnR

Combine that with spot up shooting, which has gone through the roof with team defenses having to provide more help defense inside, on middle type actions like a high PnR

The ball handler is just too efficient, I think it would be worth it to make post ups more efficient

At least then there'd be much more offensive variety and big/small balance

[Im Still Ballin]

The two players with the most points scored in these scoring types

Reggie Jackson as the PnR Ball Handler: 318/715 FGs

Lamarcus Aldridge from the Post Up: 163/336 FGs

Aldridge is more efficient, but that's because his volume is much smaller

It's just too hard to get lots of effective post up volume to where Bigmen can have the same impact that perimeter players do.

It's somewhat of a predictable play, but we've seen how LeBron, Draymond and others have been able to adapt it into today's game... Just like in the past... Post ups can be very team orientated with willing passing and off-ball movement

Do we have a lack of quality post players? Yes... But the rules certainly aren't helping

I think some rules combating fronting would be a good start

[90sgoat]

Yo I'm Still Ballin imma let you finish but NBA zone is not a real zone. A real zone has a center camped in the lane, which is not possble with the Def 3. All these players back in the 00s talking about zone were talking about a real zone.

If you have Mutombo permanently camped in the paint and players then flooding strong side like they do now, how easy do you think it is to get a layup? Not very.

[Jasper]

OP -
I am sure I replied early on about this thread.
I just wanted everyone to remember that Hubie was a player first , coach second and an announcer 3rd.

I could list a ton of players or coach's that would weigh in on 'this' NBA.

Lets remember how we got here.

It was the 60's players making 50k a year.
But it was the Bulls Celtics, Lakers era of 80's 90's that made these rule changes , because of the physicality of the sport, and guys like Karl Malone that worked out 365 to take the punishment in the low post.
Scoring became harder , so rule changes were made.

As I stated before, 90% of the guys scoring 24+ points a game , if the rules were what they were , would score in the teens.....
This is not a physical NBA league , its a run and gun league , with little regard to plays or skills.
Hate to say it but kids learn from the NBA players.

We've seen big men with little to NO foot work skills.
Soon we will see wing plays not knowing how to post up , and lets not forget
how to defend or passing skills,

ITS NOT HEALTHY FOR THE SPORT.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yo I'm Still Ballin imma let you finish but NBA zone is not a real zone. A real zone has a center camped in the lane, which is not possble with the Def 3. All these players back in the 00s talking about zone were talking about a real zone.

If you have Mutombo permanently camped in the paint and players then flooding strong side like they do now, how easy do you think it is to get a layup? Not very.
An NBA zone accounts for the 3 in the key rule stipulation

Zones, by legislation have been outlawed since pretty much the beginning

1946-47
• Zone defenses outlawed on January 11, 1947.

The 3 seconds in the key rule first came around in 1981, when the Illegal Defense guidelines were introduced

[Im Still Ballin]

=================================
-----Illegal Defense Official NBA Guidelines-----
A. Technical Foul

Section I-Illegal Defenses

a. Illegal defenses which violate the rules and accepted guidelines set forth are not permitted in the NBA.

b. When the offensive team is in its backcourt with the ball, no illegal defense violation may occur.

(1) Penalties for Illegal Defenses.

On the first violation, the 24-second clock is reset to 24. On the second and succeeding violations, the clock is reset to 24 and one free throw (technical) is attempted. When a violation occurs during the last 24 seconds of any period (including overtime), regardless of the number of prior offenses, one free throw is awarded for the violation. (On all violations, the ball is awarded to the offended team out-of-bounds at the free throw line extended on either side of the court.)

EXCEPTION: If a field goal attempt is simultaneous with a whistle for an illegal violation, and that attempt is successful, the basket shall count and the violation is nullified.

[Im Still Ballin]

(2) Guidelines for Defensive Coverage

a. Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds. The defensive player must re-establish a position with both feet out of the "Insidelane" to be considered as having legally cleared the restricted area.

b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

c. An offensive player without the ball may not be double-teamed from the weakside. Only the player with the ball may be double-teamed by a weakside defensive player. Weakside and strongside restrictions shall extend from the baseline to the midcourt line.

d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "middle defensive area." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.

e. When a weakside offensive player is above the free throw line extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" extended for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is below the free throw line extended, his defensive man must vacate the "inside lane" unless his man is positioned adjacent (posted up) to the threesecond lane extended. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area, his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds. When an offensive player on the strongside is below the free throw line extended "middle defensive area," his defender must take a position below the free throw line extended immediately or double-team the ball as soon as the ball crosses midcourt. There is no 2.9 time limit. If the offensive player relocates to a position above the free throw line extended, his defender may take a similar position no farther than one defensive area away within 2.9 seconds. In all of the situations above, a defensive player may always aggressively double-team the ball regardless of his previous position on the floor.

f. When an offensive player takes a position above the tip of the circle, with or without the ball, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) from him than the "upper defensive area."

g. A defensive player must follow his weakside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is no 2.9-second time limit on this play. A defensive player must execute one of these three options or he is guilty of an illegal defense immediately.

h. A defensive player must follow his strongside offensive man, switch to another man at an area of intersection, or double-team the ball. There is a 2.9-second time limit on this play which commences when the defensive player reaches the weakside and "opens up."

i. A double team is when two or more defenders aggressively pursue a player with the ball to a position close enough for a held ball to occur. Failure to comply with paragraphs (a) through (i) above will result in an Illegal Defense violation.

[Euroleague]

:hammerhead:

These aren't your standard zone schemes, DUMMY!

Anyone that claims the NBA has a zone defense, doe snot even know how basic basketball rules work.

Zone defense is banned in the NBA. That is an absolute fact, and anyone (no matter who the hell they are), claiming otherwise is totally full of shit.

[Euroleague]

Actually, zone defense has been legal since 2001 when they introduced the 3 second rule.

Just stop it.