Stacked squads rule the day - none of these guys are required to carry their team

[3ball]

.
No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career - EXCEPT Jordan, who did so by an average of 15.4 ppg:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920


Let that sink in - 15.4 ppg - no one carried a team like Jordan..

[CAstill]

Where's the context? Pretty sure since Kobe took over the Lakers he's done the same. Jordan didn't have Shaq playing along with him for the beginning of his career.

[3ball]

Pretty sure since Kobe took over the Lakers he's done the same.



Here's the stats when both guys won rings as #1 options - each stat is a LINK to NBA.com data:




............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2009....... 32.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2010....... 32.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 37.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 37.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



So old man Jordan had a FAR bigger load than Kobe.

[Quickening]

Yes in modern basketball one player outscoring his team mates by so much isn't good basketball. GSW and Spurs have shown that involving multiple players in the offence is optimal basketball.

That's why its funny that 90s fans think the bulls would beat this GSW team who average 115 ppg.

[Sakkreth]

Wait, you mean Jordan's Bulls weren't stacked ?
You went full retard.

:lol

[bigkingsfan]

Team didn't start winning until he stopped being a ball hog and tone down his shooting.

[Euroleague]

So let me get this straight....

The 90s Chicago Bulls were not stacked?

https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o7WTPx44NhnoYkNVe/200.gif

[3ball]

Wait, you mean Jordan's Bulls weren't stacked ?



Do the Cavs, Warriors, or ANY team require their #1 option to average 15 more points than the 2nd option in the playoffs?



..................PPG for #1 scorer... PPG for #2 scorer... Difference


1985 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1985-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-bucks.html):...... Jordan 29.3............... Woolrige 20.5.................. 8.8

1986 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html):...... Jordan 43.7............... Woolrige 21.0................ 22.7

1987 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html):...... Jordan 35.7............... C Oakley 20.0................ 15.7

1988 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 45.2............... C Oakley 10.8................ 34.4
1988 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 27.4............... C Oakley 12.8................ 14.6

1989 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-cavaliers.html):...... Jordan 39.8............... S Pippen 15.0................ 25.0
1989 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-knicks.html):...... Jordan 35.7............... S Pippen 14.8................ 20.9
1989 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1989-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 29.7............... C Hodges 12.0............... 17.7

1990 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bucks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.8............... S Pippen 22.5................ 14.3
1990 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 43.0............... S Pippen 20.8................ 22.2
1990 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1990-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-pistons.html):...... Jordan 32.1............... S Pippen 16.6................ 15.5

1991 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.0............... S Pippen 19.7................ 9.3
1991 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 33.4............... S Pippen 23.4................ 10.0
1991 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pistons-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.8............... S Pippen 22.0................ 7.8
1991 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-finals-lakers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.2............... S Pippen 20.8................ 10.4

[3ball]

1992 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 45.0............... S Pippen 24.0.............. 21.0
1992 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.3............... S Pippen 16.0.............. 15.3
1992 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-finals-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 19.8.............. 11.9
1992 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-finals-trail-blazers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 35.8............... S Pippen 20.8.............. 15.0

1993 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-hawks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 34.3............... S Pippen 15.3.............. 19.0
1993 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 18.3.............. 12.7
1993 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html):...... Jordan 32.2............... S Pippen 22.5.............. 9.8
1993 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 21.2.............. 19.8

1995 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-hornets.html):...... Jordan 32.3............... T Kukocs 17.3.............. 15.0
1995 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-magic.html):...... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 19.0.............. 12.0

1996 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 30.0............... S Pippen 19.7.............. 10.3
1996 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.0............... S Pippen 15.6.............. 20.4
1996 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.5............... S Pippen 18.5.............. 11.0
1996 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 27.3............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 11.6

1997 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bullets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 37.3............... S Pippen 16.7.............. 20.6
1997 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hawks-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 26.6............... S Pippen 22.2.............. 4.4
1997 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 30.2............... S Pippen 16.8.............. 17.4
1997 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-finals-jazz-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 32.3............... S Pippen 20.0.............. 12.3

[3ball]

1998 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.3............... S Pippen 18.0.............. 18.3
1998 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hornets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.6............... S Pippen 17.8.............. 11.8
1998 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.1
1998 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):...... Jordan 33.5............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 17.8
.................................................. ............................................______
.................................................. ........................15.4 average difference

[SexSymbol]

I always admire your effort as it seems that here's a lot of time spent on these lists, but Bulls had quite a good team and even you have to admit it.
Times have changed, but there aren't enough individual talent to demoralize the opposition now.
Prime Kobe could do that, I think Curry can do that, but he's not required all the time, Durant could do it if his aggressiveness was better.
tbh, all it matters is winning, doesn't matter how

[Cleverness]

Are you trying to say Klay and Draymond > Pippen and Rodman? Wow. I guess the 73 win team is better than the 72 win team

[3ball]

Are you trying to say Klay and Draymond > Pippen and Rodman?


Pippen and Rodman destroy Klay and Draymond, obviously.

But Pip and Rodman played BETTER COMPETITION, which explains why the Bulls needed Jordan to average 15 more points than his 2nd option in the playoffs - that's FAR more than anyone else has been required to do

[ImKobe]

Here's the stats when both guys won rings as #1 options - each stat is a LINK to NBA.com data:




So old man Jordan had a FAR bigger load than Kobe.

I agree if we're talking scoring load, but Jordan had less help on that end plus the league wasn't scoring as many points per game in 97 and 98 so their defenses kept them in games no matter what and Jordan got his.

Kobe averaged 29.7 on 22.6 FGA 8.3 FTA
Jordan averaged 31.8 on 25.6 FGA 9.3 FTA

Kobe was more efficient however. Both basically shot an identical % inside the arc while Kobe was much better from 3 and 5% better from the FT line

on top of that, Kobe averaged 5.5 assists to Jordan's 4.1

There really isn't much difference if you look at the production. Saying Jordan carried a "FAR bigger load" is simply not true. It's comparing 30/6/6 to 32/6/4

2 more points on worse shooting efficiency vs a few more assists.


And It's funny how you say Jordan was old when Kobe had played more games/seasons and didn't take 2 years off in the middle of his prime.

[SouBeachTalents]

Like a Bulls team that loses the best player in the league, wins 55 games and comes within a win of the ECF, that kind of stacked?

[3ball]

but Bulls had quite a good team and even you have to admit it


Jordan's cast required him to average 15 more points than his 2nd option in the playoffs, which is FAR more than anyone else was required to do.

Look at the list that was posted previously - it's insane that Jordan had to score THAT much more than Pippen every series.

Guys like Lebron and Curry have many series where they aren't their team's leading scorer, while Jordan led his team in every series by an average of 15 ppg - that's ridiculous and shows the "next level" Jordan was on

[Cleverness]

The 1993-1994 Bulls won 55 games and almost got to the finals without Jordan and Rodman :sleeping

Put Curry, Kobe, LeBron, or Shaq on that team and they'll win 72+ games easy

[NBAGOAT]

3ball's never going acknowledge it but help's more than scoring. The Bulls had an amazing defensive team and a coach who knew how to coach defense in Phil. Went from a 106.1 drtg to 102.7drtg even after losing Jordan.

[3ball]

There really isn't much difference between Kobe and Jordan's production


:kobe:

Career



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 30.1 ppg.. 49.7%.. 27.9 PER
BRYANT REG SEASON:. 25.0 ppg.. 44.7%.. 22.9 PER

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 33.4 ppg.. 48.7%.. 28.6 PER
BRYANT PLAYOFFS:. 25.6 ppg.. 44.8%.. 22.4 PER


not even close






There really isn't much difference in Jordan and Kobe's production



You're looking at old man Jordan (33-35 years old), compared to prime Kobe (29-31), yet Jordan still had better production and efficiency:




JORDAN 1996-1998 REG SEASON:. 29.6 ppg.. 48.2% fg.. 2 MVP
BRYANT 2008-2010 REG SEASON:. 27.4 ppg.. 46.1% fg.. 1 MVP


JORDAN 1996-1998 PLAYOFFS:. 31.4 ppg.. 45.9% fg
BRYANT 2008-2010 PLAYOFFS:. 29.8 ppg.. 46.4% fg


JORDAN 1996-1998 FINALS:. 31.1 ppg.. 43.4% fg.. 3 championships.. 3 FMVP's
BRYANT 2008-2010 FINALS:. 29.2 ppg.. 41.3% fg.. 2 championships.. 2 FMVP's



Jordan had better production and efficiency even though DRtg, PPG and Pace were all lower during Jordan's 2nd three-peat (1996-1998) than Kobe's championship years without Shaq (2008-2010), in both regular season and playoffs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12425070&postcount=38


So old man Jordan > prime Kobe.. Just imagine if we looked at Jordan's prime.. :eek: .. :bowdown:



CONTINUED...

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED....





Saying Jordan carried a "FAR bigger load" is simply not true.


Prime Jordan carried a FAR bigger load, and so did 2nd three-peat Jordan:

2nd three-peat Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points AND achieved a higher proportion of his team's assists than prime Kobe - this is because the mid-late 90's were the slowest pace of all-time, much slower than Kobe's 2008-2010.

So Jordan carried a bigger load offensively, while also being the far superior defender.





Kobe was more efficient however.


:kobe:

Career:



JORDAN REG SEASON:. 49.7 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 118 ORtg
BRYANT REG SEASON:. 44.7%.. 54.1 ts.. 112 ORtg

JORDAN PLAYOFFS:. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
BRYANT PLAYOFFS:. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 112 ORtg



If we only look at 2nd three-peat Jordan, he had equal shooting efficiency to prime Kobe - more importantly, he had higher per POSSESSION efficiency (ortg), which is more important than shooting efficiency - shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency.

Jordan's higher per possession efficiency was due to FAR less turnovers and better midrange efficiency.

[BedroomBully]

Its like I said in another post, I cant remember the last time a 1# option got away with CONSTANTLY playing like S#$t and his teammates out playing him! WHO in the history of the NBA has ever had that luxury?

[3ball]

The Bulls went from a 106.1 drtg to 102.7 even after losing Jordan.


Your analysis is flawed - who cares if the Bulls had lower DRtg in 1994, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3)... Accordingly, the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters:


The Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.





The Bulls had an amazing defensive team


Nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense - that's a wash among championship teams.

Otoh, great OFFENSE is usually the differentiating factor: remember, the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[NBAGOAT]

Your analysis is flawed - who cares if the Bulls had lower DRtg in 1994, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3)... Accordingly, the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters:


The Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.



Nearly ALL championship teams have a great defense - that's a wash among championship teams.

Otoh, great OFFENSE is usually the differentiating factor: remember, the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

using a raw ranking doesn't tell a complete picture. If you want a better way of telling how a team does relative to league compare them to who's in 1st place or the average defensive rating. You provided the average numbers already which say Bulls were 1.9 better than average in 3 but 3.6 better than average in 94; that's significant. Bulls were 6.4 worse than the Knicks in 93 and only 4.5 in 94 so also significant.

[3ball]

The 1993-1994 Bulls won 55 games and almost got to the finals without Jordan and Rodman


The 1994 Bulls lost in the 2nd Round without Jordan, after being 3-peat champs WITH Jordan.

If we wanted to confirm Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to come back and 3-peat again... Done and done..

Interestingly, the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.





Put Curry, Kobe, LeBron, or Shaq on the 55-win Bulls, and they'll win 72+ games easy


The 1994 Bulls were 3-peat, defending champs - so Shaq, Lebron and Curry would need to 3-peat from 1991-1993 for the Bulls to have the same team that Jordan left in 1994.

However, in order to 3-peat, the Bulls needed MJ to lead the Bulls in scoring for every playoff series by an average of 15.4 ppg - no all-time great (including Shaq, Curry or Lebron) has led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg..

Shaq, Curry and Lebron have all been carried and outscored by Kobe, Klay or Wade - they simply aren't capable of the sustained, goat offensive dominance required to 3-peat with those Bulls.

[3ball]

the Bulls' DRtg was 3.6 better than average in 94, compared to 1.9 in 1993; that's significant.


You think that losing the goat SG defender made the Bulls BETTER on defense?.. Obviously, there must be something else going on





the Bulls' DRtg was 3.6 better than average in 94, compared to 1.9 in 1993; that's significant.


In 1992, the Bulls DRtg was 3.8 better than the league avg, compared to the 3.6 you mentioned from 1994.. So the 1992 Bulls were a better defensive team, even though they were defending champs and half-assing the regular season, while the 1994 Bulls were trying to prove themselves and played all-out every possession.

In 1993, the Bulls were trying to accomplish the impossible 3-peat, so they were REALLY half-assing the regular season - their half-ass play was demonstrated by them winning only 57 games, but then defeating two 60-win higher seeds in the playoffs (NY and Phoenix).

And remember - you're saying the 1994 Bulls performed slightly BETTER defensively, which means their massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994..

[bigkingsfan]

Pippen w/o Jordan > Jordan w/o Pippen

[Cleverness]

Pippen w/o Jordan > Jordan w/o Pippen

That's because Jordan played against tougher competition than Pippen. I'll let 3ball elaborate on it

[3ball]

Pippen w/o Jordan > Jordan w/o Pippen


That's how you know the 55 games argument is bs..

The 1994 Bulls won 55 games because they were 3-peat, defending champs.. So it doesn't matter if Kobe or Lebron could coattail a ring with that ready-made team - the more important issue is whether they could 3-peat from 1991-1993, so the Bulls had a supporting cast and organization capable of 55 wins in 1994.

But only Jordan had what it took to 3-peat: the Bulls needed MJ to lead the team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - no all-time great (including Shaq, Curry or Lebron) has led their team in scoring for every playoff series, let alone by 15 ppg..

Shaq, Curry and Lebron have all been carried and outscored by Kobe, Klay or Wade - they simply aren't capable of the sustained, goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185) required to 3-peat with those Bulls.

[bigkingsfan]

1-9

[bdreason]

Modern defensive rules make it more difficult to win games by allowing one player to isolate. The Spurs showed the league the most efficient way to score against modern defenses is to move the ball from side to side and spread the offensive production around. Ironically the Spurs went back to a more isolation oriented offense this year, and that's the primary reason they lost to OKC in the 2nd round.

[sd3035]

Pippen and Rodman destroy Klay and Draymond, obviously.


I guess that means Curry >>>>> Jordan :applause: :applause: :applause:

[plowking]

Bulls are the most talented team of all time.
Pippen is basically a slightly worse Kawhi, Rodman is basically Ben Wallace but perimeter D replacing interior and rim protection... Toni Kukoc is a better Lamar Odom coming off the bench, Ron Harper was previously a 20ppg scorer before he came to the Bulls who also played lock down defense, Kerr was a better open shooter than Korver, etc.

[3ball]

Ironically the Spurs went back to a more isolation oriented offense this year


Spurs won 69 games by isolating (3rd all-time).. :bowdown:

Btw, you think Jordan was just an isolation player?... He was the Player of the Year at North Carolina, where isolation basketball wasn't played.. In the NBA, those same fundamentals allowed him to score many of his points quickly and off-ball.

So he wasn't just an isolation player, but even if he scored ALL 37 ppg on isolations, that would make him MORE goat - isolations are contested, low efficiency shots that require an offensive move, and therefore more skill than any other shot.





and that's the primary reason they lost to OKC in the 2nd round.


nonsense - OKC isolates more than any team in the league.

[bdreason]

nonsense - OKC isolates more than any team in the league.



Exactly, and the Spurs tried to beat them at their own game.



And MJ is the greatest perimeter isolation scorer ever. I remember the Bulls used to take 4 of their players and stack them on one side of the court, and just let MJ do work 1 v 1.

[3ball]

Rodman is basically Ben Wallace but perimeter D replacing interior and rim protection...


That shows how much you know - he wasn't a perimeter defender AT ALL by the time he arrived in Chicago - he was 34-36 years old and his all-star days were long gone.





Rodman is basically Ben Wallace


Wallace was 4-time DPOY, while Rodman didn't make ANY all-defense teams in 1997 or 1998 - he averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs..

He was mostly washed up as a Bull - 1996 was his last good year.. By 1997, he was the same washed up garbage that he was in 1999 as a Laker, but no one noticed because it was the MJ show.





Bulls were most stacked team ever


That's why the Bulls needed Jordan to lead the team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, by an average 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg like MJ.

They also needed him to lead the team in passing - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate FGs.

Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the best performance and biggest load ever carried.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


take 4 of players and stack them on one side of the court, and just let MJ do work 1 v 1.


It's much easier to clearout today, since 3-point shooting draws defenders further away from the ballhandler (see gif above) - we saw Blatt clearout for Lebron literally a dozen times per game in last year's Finals:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398


It was pretty ugly because Lebron has no moves and he can't shoot contested, midrange pull-ups like MJ, so his efficiency was horrific.

[bdreason]

Warriors chose to defend LeBron that way because he's more dangerous as a passer than a 1 v 1 scorer. If that were MJ, I can assure you they would have zoned him up and had a defender on the strong side of the key.

[bdreason]

And those Bulls teams were not the most stacked team ever, they were just well constructed. The 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, and 80's Celtics were certainly more stacked with talent.

I think the current Warriors are actually similar to the 90's Bulls in construction. I don't think they have the most talented roster in the league, but all the pieces fit, and all the players know their roles. Much like those Bulls teams, Warriors roleplayers get overrated because of the teams success. And I'm not saying that to try and prop up Curry. In fact, I would argue that Curry gets overrated because of the teams success as well.

[BlueandGold]

90s team really isnt all that stacked except 96 when the harper to the mix along with pippen, rodman at his defensive prime and Jordan. Then add in Kukoc and it's GFG

[3ball]

Warriors chose to defend LeBron that way because he's more dangerous as a passer than a 1 v 1 scorer.


Lebron's passing wasn't much of a threat in the 2015 Finals:

No player is a passing threat against a Finals opponent if their time of possession is a ridiculous 12 minutes, (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) like Lebron's, which was amazingly 50% higher (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) than the RS leader (John Wall's 8.2 minutes).

Overall, Lebron averages 1.0 more assists in the playoffs, with more turnovers and higher time of possession - so the notion that he's a greater passing threat than Jordan is ridiculous.. Jordan would be an equal or greater passing threat than Lebron and obviously a far greater 1-on-1 threat.







https://media.giphy.com/media/10RuiINsEB5SHm/giphy.gif


If that were MJ, I can assure you they would have zoned him up and had a defender on the strong side of the key.


MJ was already goat at navigating 4-5 defender strongsides (no spacing), he would be a wiz at destroying floods (2-defender strongsides).

Furthermore, floods can be avoided altogether by pulling up for a midrange jumper (which Jordan was GOAT at), or exploited by playing off-ball (ditto).

Otoh, Lebron's off-ball game is inferior and his midrange percentage less than 40% for 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17) (he missed 80% of his jumpers in 2015 Finals), so he can't take advantage of floods like Jordan.
.

[bdreason]

I agree MJ would destroy modern defenses. He would get to the rim and hit midrange shots at will. I was just pointing out that teams wouldn't defend him like the Warriors did LeBron. So posting a GIF of the Warriors allowing LeBron to go 1 v 1 doesn't make much sense. The number of wide open shots MJ would generate for his teammates against modern defenses would be insane as well.

[tamaraw08]

1998 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.3............... S Pippen 18.0.............. 18.3
1998 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hornets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.6............... S Pippen 17.8.............. 11.8
1998 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.1
1998 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):...... Jordan 33.5............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 17.8
.................................................. ............................................______
.................................................. ........................15.4 average difference

What about shots/game vs his teammates shots/game?:confusedshrug:
ok so MJ is GOAT, Im still intrigued how he will truly fare against
the elongated 6-8 Kawhi Leonard instead of 6-5 Craig Ehlo
or the bigger and deceptively quick Draymond Green instead of Bryon Russell where he pushed off before taking a shot.
or the fierce Tony Allen instead of an old and slow Dennis Johnson.

[tamaraw08]

1998 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 36.3............... S Pippen 18.0.............. 18.3
1998 Round 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-hornets-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 29.6............... S Pippen 17.8.............. 11.8
1998 Round 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pacers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.1
1998 Round 4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1998-nba-finals-bulls-vs-jazz.html):...... Jordan 33.5............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 17.8
.................................................. ............................................______
.................................................. ........................15.4 average difference
98 Playoffs, Jordan took 11 more shots than Pippen and their difference was only about 15 pts. Not very efficient IMO.
96-97,
MJ outscored Pippen by 12 pts and yet he took 9.9 more shots/game. Huh.:eek: :eek:

[3ball]

he will truly fare against the elongated 6-8 Kawhi Leonard


He averaged 31 ppg on 48% against back-to-back DPOY Rodman during 1988-1991 playoffs.





or the fierce Tony Allen instead of an old and slow Dennis Johnson.


In his very first playoff series, rookie Jordan destroyed the reigning, back-to-back DPOY Sidney Moncrief for 29/6/9 on 57% ts.

All-NBA defenders Dumars, Starks, and Dunn also compare nicely.





instead of 6-5 Craig Ehlo


Super-athlete Ron Harper was the 40 mpg starter and primary defender on Jordan - Ehlo averaged 20 mpg off the bench when Harper got in foul trouble






or the bigger and deceptively quick Draymond Green



Ha - fat ass Draymond wouldn't last a possession and Kerr would have to switch back..

Look how easily 35-year old Jordan blows by all-star Garnett in 1998:


http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif

[3ball]

98 Playoffs, Jordan took 11 more shots than Pippen and their difference was only about 15 pts. Not very efficient IMO.


PIPPEN. 1997 PLAYOFFS:. 41.7 fg.. 52.6 ts.. 107 ORtg
JORDAN 1997 PLAYOFFS:. 45.6 fg.. 52.4 ts.. 114 ORtg

PIPPEN. 1998 PLAYOFFS:. 41.5 fg.. 50.0 ts.. 108 ORtg
JORDAN 1998 PLAYOFFS:. 46.2 fg.. 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg


Overall, Pippen averaged a paltry 17 ppg on 40.8% in the ENTIRE 1996-1998 playoffs, including 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, and nearly the same in 1998 Finals.. That's embarrassing for a 2nd option.

Also, Jordan had higher TS, FG, and ORtg than Bird, Kobe, Wade and Pippen in regular season and playoffs.. And higher TS, FG and ORtg than Lebron in the playoffs.

take this L
.

[tamaraw08]

He averaged 31 ppg on 48% against back-to-back DPOY Rodman during 1988-1991 playoffs.



In his very first playoff series, rookie Jordan destroyed the reigning, back-to-back DPOY Sidney Moncrief for 29/6/9 on 57% ts.

All-NBA defenders Dumars, Starks, and Dunn also compare nicely.



Super-athlete Ron Harper was the 40 mpg starter and primary defender on Jordan - Ehlo averaged 20 mpg off the bench when Harper got in foul trouble





Ha - fat ass Draymond wouldn't last a possession and Kerr would have to switch back..

Look how easily 35-year old Jordan blows by all-star Garnett in 1998:


http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/6agjm-.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/EfFINb.gif

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2015/Jp9ACT.gif

Are you really going to compare the 6-4 Moncrief over the elongated 6-8
Kawhi Leonard?, really?
Ron Harper is surely super athlete, but he was more known as a scorer and not a defender back then, check the link
http://http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/ian_thomsen/02/25/ron-harper-once-lived-kevin-loves-tough-transition/ or http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/ian_thomsen/02/25/ron-harper-once-lived-kevin-loves-tough-transition/
Im not going to pretend and say I watched every MJ game but look who defended MJ in his game winning shot vs the Cavs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zveLtpgQ49Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch? or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjtRjhvQo6I
v=zveLtpgQ49Q)
Rodman defending Jordan? Maybe, all I saw from a brief check is that the 6-3 Joe Dumars was the one defending Jordan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_z_68NdbqM
Again, I said MJ is GOAT, but I'm just "intrigued" how good and effective he can be if he was guarded by taller and more athletic players.

[Suguru101]

Bulls are the most talented team of all time.
Pippen is basically a slightly worse Kawhi, Rodman is basically Ben Wallace but perimeter D replacing interior and rim protection... Toni Kukoc is a better Lamar Odom coming off the bench, Ron Harper was previously a 20ppg scorer before he came to the Bulls who also played lock down defense, Kerr was a better open shooter than Korver, etc.

Are you ****ing smoking?

Since when is Kawhi better than Pippen?

Pippen was taller and longer than Kawhi and as good or better a defender. You could say Kawhi has a better post game and is a better shooter, but they averaged about the same amount of points and Pippen's play-making/passing was leagues better. Kawhi averages like 1-2 assists per game, Pippen ran the offense and got like 6-7 assists per game.

Come on now. Come on.

[3ball]

Rodman defending Jordan? Maybe, all I saw from a brief check is that the 6-3 Joe Dumars was the one defending Jordan.


A brief check?.. So you had no idea... Show me where Lebron hit a huge playoff game-winner on Kawhi, like Jordan did Rodman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8Z2vU7TDh8&t=4m13s


Rodman guarded Jordan all the time - this is well-documented:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=5m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8Z2vU7TDh8





Again, I said MJ is GOAT, but I'm just "intrigued" how good and effective he can be if he was guarded by taller and more athletic players.



If you wonder how he'd perform against "taller, more athletic players", then you don't really think he's the GOAT.

Here's some taller, athletic players that guarded Jordan:


Dominique
Drexler
Rodman
Penny
Grant Hill
Clifford Robinson
Derrick McKey
Anthony Mason
Reggie Lewis
Stacey Augmon
Doug Christie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w21ANz87kFI&t=0m11s)
Michael Finley
Richard Dumas
Sean Elliot
Dr. J
Garnett
Eddie Jones
Michael Cooper
Rodney McCray


You should be aware that Jordan always destroyed taller SF's, because they couldn't stay in front of him - that's why coaches usually didn't guard Jordan with taller SF's for extended stretches.

But you didn't watch back then, so your going with the uninformed narrative that "MJ was just guarded by Majerle and Ehlo"





Are you really going to compare the 6-4 Moncrief over the elongated 6-8
Kawhi Leonard?, really?


No, I compared Moncrief to Tony Allen, but your reading comprehension missed it





Ron Harper is surely super athlete, but he was more known as a scorer and not a defender back then, check the link


You were wrong - you said MJ was guarded by unathletic Ehlo, when he was guarded by athletic Ron Harper for 40 mpg..

Also, Jordan used to destroy DPOY Michael Cooper - he averaged 35 ppg against Cooper in games where Cooper played 30+ minutes:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12426133&postcount=11
.

[DCL]

1988 Round 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1988-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-cavaliers-vs-bulls.html):...... Jordan 45.2............... C Oakley 10.8................ 34.4



quite ridiculous

[Euroleague]

Like a Bulls team that loses the best player in the league, wins 55 games and comes within a win of the ECF, that kind of stacked?

https://media0.giphy.com/media/sWBOpINwXnW7K/200.gif

[Euroleague]

And those Bulls teams were not the most stacked team ever, they were just well constructed. The 60's Celtics, 80's Lakers, and 80's Celtics were certainly more stacked with talent.

I think the current Warriors are actually similar to the 90's Bulls in construction. I don't think they have the most talented roster in the league, but all the pieces fit, and all the players know their roles. Much like those Bulls teams, Warriors roleplayers get overrated because of the teams success. And I'm not saying that to try and prop up Curry. In fact, I would argue that Curry gets overrated because of the teams success as well.

96 to 98 Bulls was easily as stacked as any NBA team ever.

[sd3035]

Stacked squads don't always rule. The most stacked teams ever created are 2/7 after this year's Finals

[Euroleague]

Are you ****ing smoking?

Since when is Kawhi better than Pippen?

Pippen was taller and longer than Kawhi and as good or better a defender. You could say Kawhi has a better post game and is a better shooter, but they averaged about the same amount of points and Pippen's play-making/passing was leagues better. Kawhi averages like 1-2 assists per game, Pippen ran the offense and got like 6-7 assists per game.

Come on now. Come on.

Pippen was better than Leonard at every single aspect of the game except shooting.

[livinglegend]

Here's why the Bulls were stacked:
When their best player got replaced by a d-league type of talent, they won 55 games ( and they had many key injuries, so they would win more than 60 games). STACKED!

/thread


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