ESPN Insider Request: LeBron's 2-4 Finals record is one of his greatest achievements

[ArbitraryWater]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15882307/what-lebron-james-losing-nba-finals-record-really-means-nba

Anybody got it?

[Sarcastic]

Damage control :lol

[KyrieTheFuture]

Sure, it's one of HIS greatest achievements, just not one of the NBA's greatest.

[Hey Yo]

Does Michael Jordan's legacy need help? Apparently so, if we look how eager folks are to shred LeBron James for playing on the losing side in four NBA Finals.

James has been nothing short of incredible in these playoffs, reaching the NBA Finals yet again after dispatching the Toronto Raptors.

Consider this fact: James just put up a 34.5 player efficiency rating in the conference finals while no one else surpassed the 26.0 mark over the same period. Not Steph. Not Klay. Not KD. Not Russ.

Furthermore, James is dunking twice as often as he did last postseason. And the Cavs' offense has been virtually unstoppable, scoring a sizzling 116.2 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs.

However, over the next couple of weeks, there's a good chance you'll see some version of the following Finals note plastered in big-fonted memes:

James is just 2-4 for his career in the NBA Finals. What a bum! More like Le-Fraud, am I right?!

Enoooooough. Blaming James for his 2-4 Finals record is relying on the silliest stat around, and the latest desperate attempt to protect Jordan's sacred legacy.

Why is 2-4 so misleading?

Let's count the reasons.

1. Six straight Finals is basically unheard of

Seeing James at the Finals has gotten so common that it's hard to imagine the championship round without him. James has played his way into the Finals for a sixth straight season, something that hasn't been done by a player since Bill Russell pulled off the feat in 1966.

For James, it's even more remarkable once you consider that Russell's Boston Celtics needed to win only one series to reach the Finals from 1961 to 1965; James and others in this modern era needed to win three just to get there.

Getting to the Finals six straight times is an amazing accomplishment for James and his teams, even if he didn't win the title every time. The 2-4 stat is a clever sleight of hand. It turns a success into a failure, no different than walking up to a college graduate and tearing up the diploma because it didn't have summa *** laude written on it.

By citing James' "losing" record of 2-4, the implication is that we'd somehow prefer James to lose earlier in the playoffs and thereby not tarnish his precious Finals record.

Another common barb thrown at James' record is that he's always gotten an easy road to the Finals. One pretty big reason for that: Of the nine 60-win teams from the East since James entered the league, James has been on three of them. Also, the last two 60-win East teams James faced in the playoffs? He beat both.

Last season, the Cavs swept the 60-win Hawks and his Heat in 2011 needed just five games to send the 62-win Bulls -- led by MVP Derrick Rose -- packing. (And let's not forget that in 2006 a 21-year-old James took a Cavs squad that started Flip Murray and Larry Hughes to a Game 7 against the 64-18 Pistons.)

The stat you don't often hear is that James has reached the Finals in seven of his 11 postseasons, which is astounding to think about. At just 31 years old, James has already reached the championship round more times than Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, George Gervin, Alex English, Bob Lanier, Dan Issel, Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Steve Nash and Yao Ming ... combined. Yes, combined.

If you want to know how hard it is to get to the Finals even once, just ask those Hall of Famers.

[Hey Yo]

2. Michael Jordan "failed" earlier

Critics of James will point to 2-4 as both an indictment on his career and a nod of praise to Michael Jordan and his sterling 6-0 record. By slighting James, it props up Jordan's legacy as the G. O. A. T. (Greatest of All-Time).

But a fact that's rarely brought up is that James has missed the Finals just four times in his postseason career. By comparison, Jordan reached the Finals in just six of his 13 postseasons. Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

What a loser that Jordan guy was! Missed the Finals more times than he made it!

(Sidenote: It's true that James didn't make the playoffs in the first two seasons in the NBA. If we really want to blame a teenager for not going deep into the NBA playoffs, we can, while noting that Jordan didn't even arrive in the NBA until age 21. James still has reached the Finals more often already -- seven in 13 overall seasons -- than Jordan did his entire 15-season career.)

Of course, citing Jordan's 6-7 finals-appearance record is incredibly unfair to Jordan, just like 2-4 is to James. But it points to the contradiction at hand. Would we rather James lose in the Eastern Conference finals or the first round instead of competing for the title? No, we should credit James for getting so far so many times.

After all, James has never lost in the first round of the playoffs either (something Jordan suffered three times). And James has never been swept in the first round either (something Jordan endured twice).

Looking at the Finals, Jordan didn't ever have to face a 65-win team, while James has faced two in the last two seasons alone. Furthermore, Jordan enjoyed homecourt advantage in five of his six appearances, a luxury that James has only had in two of his six Finals trips, underscoring that James has overachieved in getting to the Finals with subpar rosters.

Looking at the whole picture, James has a career record of 127-65 (.661) in the playoffs, while Jordan was 119-60 (.665). Quite the difference, huh?

And yet, people scream and shout that James is a championship bust.

[sd3035]

Of course everyone would rather go 2/6 instead of 6/6, 5/7, etc

Excellent journalism :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hey Yo]

3. Championship-or-bust mentality is lunacy

Yes, winning the championship is the ultimate team goal. But it is not the only goal and it certainly isn't the most important individual achievement. Winning the MVP, for instance, is far more reflective of a player's accomplishments than touting a championship-or-bust stat that is so dependent on supporting cast, coaching and plain ol' good luck.

By the way, while we're talking about individual achievements, have you seen who leads the all-time leaderboard for win shares in the postseason?

That would be James, who just passed MJ last week. James has accumulated 40.1 playoff win shares while Jordan generated 39.8 with his play, according to Basketball-Reference.com's all-in-one metric.

Playoff Win Shares
WIN SHARES
LeBron James 40.1
Michael Jordan 39.8
Tim Duncan 37.8
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 35.6
Magic Johnson 32.6
Source: Basketball-Reference.com

The 2-4 discussion is inherently problematic because James is not 2-4, his teams were. If we graded individual careers solely based on the number of rings on fingers than Jordan is no better than Robert Horry (seven championships), Frank Ramsey (seven championships) or Tom "Satch" Sanders (eight championships).

Going by the ringzzz logic, Beno Udrih has a better NBA r

[ArbitraryWater]

thats it? Thx :cheers:

[diamenz]

for anyone else it would be, but for someone like lebron who promises not one, not two or three, flops on a regular, colludes, cramps up like a trick and whines like a bitch it really ain't shit.

[fourkicks44]

What a garbage article, I cannot believe someone got paid to write that.

It looks to me the author thinks Lebron's legacy needs help.

Utter bullshit.

[Hey Yo]

for anyone else it would be, but for someone like lebron who promises not one, not two or three, flops on a regular, colludes, cramps up like a trick and whines like a bitch it really ain't shit.
Like your boy did?

"Once LeBron James left last night

[fourkicks44]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Like your boy did?

"Once LeBron James left last night

[poido123]

2. Michael Jordan "failed" earlier

Critics of James will point to 2-4 as both an indictment on his career and a nod of praise to Michael Jordan and his sterling 6-0 record. By slighting James, it props up Jordan's legacy as the G. O. A. T. (Greatest of All-Time).

But a fact that's rarely brought up is that James has missed the Finals just four times in his postseason career. By comparison, Jordan reached the Finals in just six of his 13 postseasons. Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

What a loser that Jordan guy was! Missed the Finals more times than he made it!

(Sidenote: It's true that James didn't make the playoffs in the first two seasons in the NBA. If we really want to blame a teenager for not going deep into the NBA playoffs, we can, while noting that Jordan didn't even arrive in the NBA until age 21. James still has reached the Finals more often already -- seven in 13 overall seasons -- than Jordan did his entire 15-season career.)

Of course, citing Jordan's 6-7 finals-appearance record is incredibly unfair to Jordan, just like 2-4 is to James. But it points to the contradiction at hand. Would we rather James lose in the Eastern Conference finals or the first round instead of competing for the title? No, we should credit James for getting so far so many times.

After all, James has never lost in the first round of the playoffs either (something Jordan suffered three times). And James has never been swept in the first round either (something Jordan endured twice).

Looking at the Finals, Jordan didn't ever have to face a 65-win team, while James has faced two in the last two seasons alone. Furthermore, Jordan enjoyed homecourt advantage in five of his six appearances, a luxury that James has only had in two of his six Finals trips, underscoring that James has overachieved in getting to the Finals with subpar rosters.

Looking at the whole picture, James has a career record of 127-65 (.661) in the playoffs, while Jordan was 119-60 (.665). Quite the difference, huh?

And yet, people scream and shout that James is a championship bust.



2/7 incoming doe.


I don't care how much you fluff him up, if he wants to be regarded as one of the 10 best ever to play, you should lead your team to more championships than the half you've played.

[Hey Yo]

Remind me again who won that series and the Finals MVP?


Bulls and the guy who asked to came out of the game because of cramps.

[branslowski]

This reminds me of an old homeboy I used to chill wit...Dude could never get no pusse n we clowned him about. Then one day he got serious and said some ole be kinda like this, he was like.."I don't need to fuq none of these b!tches neway, think about it, wat if the dikk too good n she get attached and stalks me on some crazy sh!t? What if the condom break and she gets pregnant or worse, wat if she has aids? Naw I'm good, I don't need these hoes I got xvideos".

N we was like :kobe:

[game3524]

Winshares.......:oldlol:

[CurryOverLebron]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cj862z-UUAElDkG.jpg

[Lebronxrings]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cj862z-UUAElDkG.jpg
dam

[kamil]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cj862z-UUAElDkG.jpg

http://s33.postimg.org/5w5g3kuhr/THE_27_CLUB.jpg

[Blue&Orange]

Nice to know Lebrontards are retarded matter where they are, espn or insidehoops.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Winshares, a stat that's heavily reliant on TEAMS.

ESPN is a f*cking joke. They're always trying to save this clown from embarrassment. :oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

This league would of been a lot different had Kobe not being accused of rape in 04. The media has had to to go all in on James.... propping him up failure after failure.

One of Kobe's biggest sins to basketball. May god forgive him.

[NBAGOAT]

arguments were pretty poor. Hope people realize winshares were just used to make a point however to casual fans(and the rest of the winshares list is actually pretty good). The finishing statement was pretty good however. "That doesn't mean we have to tear James and everyone else down. Especially not for their achievements." Definitely applies here.

[game3524]

The irony is this article is just going to make people shit on Lebron even more. Most reasonable people expect the Cavs to lose thia series and aren't going to hold it against Lebron, but ESPN has to spin everything into some sort of positive for him.

[ArbitraryWater]

arguments were pretty poor. Hope people realize winshares were just used to make a point however to casual fans(and the rest of the winshares list is actually pretty good). The finishing statement was pretty good however. "That doesn't mean we have to tear James and everyone else down. Especially not for their achievements." Definitely applies here.

Agree, arguments could have been better.

Win-Shares does usually get the best player right which is pretty sweet if you run it down since the millenium, only last year Harden was wrong, and '02, '08 and '14 are right based on regular season only.

[Im Still Ballin]

:hammertime: :hammertime:

Top 5 Legacy: CONFIRMED

WE WIN!!!

[diamenz]

Like your boy did?

"Once LeBron James left last night’s game due to cramps, of course the jokes started flying on social media because that is par for the course now. One of the more persistent jokes was about how Michael Jordan played with the flu, he would have never come out of a game for cramps, etc, etc. Well thanks to Roland Lazenby’s “Michael Jordan: The Life”, we know that Jordan did in fact come out of Game 4 of the 1997 Finals due to stomach cramps:

It would later be learned that a Bulls team assistant had mistakenly replaced the players’ Gatorade with GatorLode, a heavy drink used for building carbs. “It was like eating baked potatoes,” explained trainer Chip Schaeffer. Down the stretch, Chicago’s players complained of stomach cramps and Jordan even asked to sit for a time, something he never did at a key moment.

So while Jordan is viewed as the most mentally tough player we have ever seen, keep in mind that His Airness also exited a Finals game because of a circumstance he couldn’t control that led to cramps.

people tend to think i give two shits about mj because he's in my avatar. **** him and his father for all i care.

but ya, alright. i'll give you that - the cramps. that still leaves the rest i mentioned. you wanna address those? naaaah u wanna nitpick.

[Real14]

There's a reason why several people call them "BSPN". Think about it.

[Hey Yo]

people tend to think i give two shits about mj because he's in my avatar. **** him and his father for all i care.

but ya, alright. i'll give you that - the cramps. that still leaves the rest i mentioned. you wanna address those? naaaah u wanna nitpick.



LOL @ at saying "I'm the one who wants to nitpik"....go look at your list.

[gigantes]

my question would be-- what were his team's season records during the seven finals trips, and how did those compare to the league best? by comparison, i seem to recall that jordan's bulls usually had the best or near-best record in the league during his six finals trips.

point is, i think an argument could be made that lebron was MORE influential and crucial to his team's success than jordan. the stats above should support that.

you could also compare this to how their teams performed without them. i know the bulls were still an elite team even while jordan was away playing baseball. what about the cavs and the heat without lebron?

[tpols]

lol.. bran stans reaching so hard.

yall will be celebrating 2/7 huh? :biggums:

[gigantes]

lol.. bran stans reaching so hard.

yall will be celebrating 2/7 huh? :biggums:
why wouldn't they?

it would be a massive achievement no matter who the star player was.

[tpols]

why wouldn't they?

it would be a massive achievement no matter who the star player was.

what is a massive achievement?

[gigantes]

what is a massive achievement?
leading a team to the finals seven times.

and not just "leading" in the traditional sense. more like, you ARE the team. it sinks or swims based on you.

not many players had that level of crucial importance. shaq and young kareem are maybe the only ones i can think of right now. even jordan and wilt are probably behind them.

[fourkicks44]

leading a team to the finals seven times.

and not just "leading" in the traditional sense. more like, you ARE the team. it sinks or swims based on you.

not many players had that level of crucial importance. shaq and young kareem are maybe the only ones i can think of right now. even jordan and wilt are probably behind them.

This is just getting stupid. Celebrating a finals loss? Really? This is what it has come to?

[gigantes]

This is just getting stupid. Celebrating a finals loss? Really? This is what it has come to?
not understanding the difference between carrying your team to the finals and losing in them?

agree... it's getting kind of stoopid.

[BlazerRed]

2. Michael Jordan "failed" earlier

Critics of James will point to 2-4 as both an indictment on his career and a nod of praise to Michael Jordan and his sterling 6-0 record. By slighting James, it props up Jordan's legacy as the G. O. A. T. (Greatest of All-Time).

But a fact that's rarely brought up is that James has missed the Finals just four times in his postseason career. By comparison, Jordan reached the Finals in just six of his 13 postseasons. Framing it another way, James is 7-4 in getting to the championship round while Jordan was 6-7.

What a loser that Jordan guy was! Missed the Finals more times than he made it!

(Sidenote: It's true that James didn't make the playoffs in the first two seasons in the NBA. If we really want to blame a teenager for not going deep into the NBA playoffs, we can, while noting that Jordan didn't even arrive in the NBA until age 21. James still has reached the Finals more often already -- seven in 13 overall seasons -- than Jordan did his entire 15-season career.)

Of course, citing Jordan's 6-7 finals-appearance record is incredibly unfair to Jordan, just like 2-4 is to James. But it points to the contradiction at hand. Would we rather James lose in the Eastern Conference finals or the first round instead of competing for the title? No, we should credit James for getting so far so many times.

After all, James has never lost in the first round of the playoffs either (something Jordan suffered three times). And James has never been swept in the first round either (something Jordan endured twice).

Looking at the Finals, Jordan didn't ever have to face a 65-win team, while James has faced two in the last two seasons alone. Furthermore, Jordan enjoyed homecourt advantage in five of his six appearances, a luxury that James has only had in two of his six Finals trips, underscoring that James has overachieved in getting to the Finals with subpar rosters.

Looking at the whole picture, James has a career record of 127-65 (.661) in the playoffs, while Jordan was 119-60 (.665). Quite the difference, huh?

And yet, people scream and shout that James is a championship bust.

That's all irrelevant when you look at the competition James has faced though. The East was a lot tougher back then.

[fourkicks44]

not understanding the difference between carrying your team to the finals and losing in them?

agree... it's getting kind of stoopid.

Not as stupid as not knowing the difference between winning and losing though.

[Mr Feeny]

2/7 incoming doe.


I don't care how much you fluff him up, if he wants to be regarded as one of the 10 best ever to play, you should lead your team to more championships than the half you've played.

Tbf if you want to be regarded as a non-terrorist, you shouldn't make threats about blowing up people's planes.

If you want to be regarded as a non-pu $$y , you shouldn't let a kid mentally eviscerates you online :lol

[Mr Feeny]

This league would of been a lot different had Kobe not being accused of rape in 04. The media has had to to go all in on James.... propping him up failure after failure.

One of Kobe's biggest sins to basketball. May god forgive him.

Nobody can manage to prop up Kobe as an elite player. The world wouldn't take seriously any argument for a career 44% scorer, 40% finals scorer and career 25% finals game 7 scorer being considered a great player:roll:

[gigantes]

Not as stupid as not knowing the difference between winning and losing though.
not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you have an actual point to make, i'll be around for a little while.

[Mr Feeny]

not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you have an actual point to make, i'll be around for a little while.

Going deep :lebronamazed:

[tpols]

leading a team to the finals seven times.

and not just "leading" in the traditional sense. more like, you ARE the team. it sinks or swims based on you.

not many players had that level of crucial importance. shaq and young kareem are maybe the only ones i can think of right now. even jordan and wilt are probably behind them.

not to be rude, but if you put russel westbrook on his own stacked team in the east by himself, or durant, or chris paul, or kawhi / curry etc they should all be able to do something similar, assuming they are always handpicking all stars for their teams. :confusedshrug:


Lebron is one of the top GOATs .. but he never embraced challenge. You are a Nets fan right? Even Jason Kidd led teams to back to back Finals and this was with no dwayne wade and chris bosh, or kyrie irving and kevin love. Nobody jumps up and down for that. Kidd was great, but he was not much better than a steve nash who never even made the Finals.


You're giving way too much credit to the individual when circumstance should have a much bigger play in the discussion.

[fourkicks44]

not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you have an actual point to make, i'll be around for a little while.

What I'm trying to get at is if leBron and the Cavs lose. Why would that be something to celebrate?

Making 6 finals in a row is immpressive, especially this day and age. But there is no second prize.

Not winning a championship, is not winning a championship, no matter how many times you do it in a row.

[ILLsmak]

This reminds me of an old homeboy I used to chill wit...Dude could never get no pusse n we clowned him about. Then one day he got serious and said some ole be kinda like this, he was like.."I don't need to fuq none of these b!tches neway, think about it, wat if the dikk too good n she get attached and stalks me on some crazy sh!t? What if the condom break and she gets pregnant or worse, wat if she has aids? Naw I'm good, I don't need these hoes I got xvideos".

N we was like :kobe:

haha, myman.

-Smak

[yeaaaman]

Sheesh I'm not sure I see the achievement about 2/7. Yes reaching the finals 7 times is rare and a great achievement in one sense. But at the same time, I don't see it as crazily shocking that Lebron reached the finals the last 2 years based off the strength of the East.

The years before in Miami, I mean he played with Wade and Bosh. Reaching the finals with those two teammates, again, to me is not SHOCKING. JVG was certain they'd break the all-time record when they teamed up, although he backed off that, the sentiment is the same - with his talent as well as Wade and Bosh, they should have been head and shoulders above the competition, which in the East they mostly were.

So congratulations to him but it's not like it was wildly unexpected for him to do that. Each of the past what 6 years were mostly expected he would make the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[gigantes]

not to be rude, but if you put russel westbrook on his own stacked team in the east by himself, or durant, or chris paul, or kawhi / curry etc they should all be able to do something similar, assuming they are always handpicking all stars for their teams. :confusedshrug:
i think lebron picking his co-stars actually made things harder for himself. it was a classical case of a superstar thinking that he knew better than the GM. result? chemistry has always been an issue, along with other various headaches for the team.

but no, i certainly don't think those other guys could have the same kind of impact that lebron does. that's part of what makes lebron so unique IMO.


Lebron is one of the top GOATs .. but he never embraced challenge...
now you're just being flat out ridiculous. the pressure and responsibility that's he's put on himself has been virtually beyond comparison.


still... i understand what you ISHers are really upset about, as i felt the same way for many years. "the decision" and his following behavior made him look like a buffoon and certainly tarnished his legacy. see, i get you guys on that.

i also understand why you are being deliberately ignorant with this "2/7" stuff, too. it's just more shitty payback on him and his supporters. the usual deal for ISH, so nothing to really get upset about.

what i do hope is that one day you lot will mature enough to realise that carrying your team to the finals seven times is a huge achievement no matter what your era or conference. even if you're a self-important jackass.

well, this was... fun? :hammerhead:

[tpols]

i think lebron picking his co-stars actually made things harder for himself. it was a classical case of a superstar thinking that he knew better than the GM. result? chemistry has always been an issue, along with other various headaches for the team.

but no, i certainly don't think those other guys could have the same kind of impact that lebron does. that's part of what makes lebron so unique IMO.


now you're just being flat out ridiculous. the pressure and responsibility that's he's put on himself has been virtually beyond comparison.


still... i understand what you ISHers are really upset about, as i felt the same way for many years. "the decision" and his following behavior made him look like a buffoon and certainly tarnished his legacy. see, i get you guys on that.

i also understand why you are being deliberately ignorant with this "2/7" stuff, too. it's just more shitty payback on him and his supporters. the usual deal for ISH, so nothing to really get upset about.

what i do hope is that one day you lot will mature enough to realise that carrying your team to the finals seven times is a huge achievement no matter what your era or conference. even if you're a self-important jackass.

well, this was... fun? :hammerhead:

yes.. I agree that hand picking stars is inferior to going the organic route. I am talking intention. Bran thought he was building a sure fire contender, and was correct the first time, but the second time was mistaken.

the point is a guy like chris paul or kevin durant could have done the same ... when the competition is a crippled derrick rose, paul george, roy hibbert, kyle lowry, demar derozan, paul millsap, and jeff teague, ANY true top 30 or so GOAT can lead a team with all stars next to him to many Finals.

there's something wrong with you if you dont get that.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron is one of the top GOATs .. but he never embraced challenge.
Drafted by and then signed on with a historically bad franchise who's never won a title, were the worst team in the league, played for Paul Silas and Mike Brown and having a revolving door of teammates in his first 7yrs...... isn't considered a challenge???

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan never lost in the Finals

6-0

Nuff said

[fourkicks44]

Jordan never lost in the Finals

6-0

Nuff said

Apparently that doesn't mean anything anymore.

These days its all about getting to the finals and losing.

The greatest players don't win anymore, it is their loses are celerbrated.

[branslowski]

Apparently that doesn't mean anything anymore.

These days its all about getting to the finals and losing.

The greatest players don't win anymore, it is their loses are celerbrated.

Yes this sh!t crazy, but all the little kids get trophies win or lose these days, at least LeBron tried his vewy hawdest.

[Mr Feeny]

Yes this sh!t crazy, but all the little kids get trophies win or lose these days, at least LeBron tried his vewy hawdest.

2 more games and your idols legacy is in dust :D

[pauk]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]3. Championship-or-bust mentality is lunacy

Yes, winning the championship is the ultimate team goal. But it is not the only goal and it certainly isn't the most important individual achievement. Winning the MVP, for instance, is far more reflective of a player's accomplishments than touting a championship-or-bust stat that is so dependent on supporting cast, coaching and plain ol' good luck.

By the way, while we're talking about individual achievements, have you seen who leads the all-time leaderboard for win shares in the postseason?

That would be James, who just passed MJ last week. James has accumulated 40.1 playoff win shares while Jordan generated 39.8 with his play, according to Basketball-Reference.com's all-in-one metric.

Playoff Win Shares
WIN SHARES
LeBron James 40.1
Michael Jordan 39.8
Tim Duncan 37.8
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 35.6
Magic Johnson 32.6
Source: Basketball-Reference.com

The 2-4 discussion is inherently problematic because James is not 2-4, his teams were. If we graded individual careers solely based on the number of rings on fingers than Jordan is no better than Robert Horry (seven championships), Frank Ramsey (seven championships) or Tom "Satch" Sanders (eight championships).

Going by the ringzzz logic, Beno Udrih has a better NBA r

[gigantes]

the point is a guy like chris paul or kevin durant could have done the same ... when the competition is a crippled derrick rose, paul george, roy hibbert, kyle lowry, demar derozan, paul millsap, and jeff teague, ANY true top 30 or so GOAT can lead a team with all stars next to him to many Finals.

there's something wrong with you if you dont get that.
and yet many haven't.

i guess we discovered the 'something' what was wrong with your faulty logic. :lol

[Magic 32]

This is another one of Henry Abbott disciples. Defending their stat hero by dancing between the raindrops of reality.

Not mentioning of the east, not naming the 60+ teams in his argument (Hawks!) and on and on.

All you need to know in the MJ vs Lebron debate....HCA.


Duncan = 7 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2016)

Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)

Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)

Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)

Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)

Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)

Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)

Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011)

Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)

Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)

Russell = 1 (1958)

MJ = 0

And Lebron was one shot away by another player from being on his way to 1-9

[diamenz]

LOL @ at saying "I'm the one who wants to nitpik"....go look at your list.

says the man that bolds phrases from people's quotes on a regular basis, and completely misses the point. generation z at it's finest.

[Hey Yo]

says the man that bolds phrases from people's quotes on a regular basis, and completely misses the point. generation z at it's finest.
I bold people's quotes so you/they know what my post is referring to. That hard for you to understand?

What are the points you made that I missed??

[HurricaneKid]

not to be rude, but if you put russel westbrook on his own stacked team in the east by himself, or durant, or chris paul, or kawhi / curry etc they should all be able to do something similar, assuming they are always handpicking all stars for their teams. :confusedshrug:


Lebron is one of the top GOATs .. but he never embraced challenge. You are a Nets fan right? Even Jason Kidd led teams to back to back Finals and this was with no dwayne wade and chris bosh, or kyrie irving and kevin love. Nobody jumps up and down for that. Kidd was great, but he was not much better than a steve nash who never even made the Finals.


You're giving way too much credit to the individual when circumstance should have a much bigger play in the discussion.

They SHOULD be able to do something similar? Then why hasn't anyone ever? Magic and Kareem had NO COMPETITION in the West. But they lost to a 40-42 win team in the middle of their run.

The last team to achieve 6 straight was the Celtics from 61-66. In 1961 there were 8 teams in the NBA and the top seed in each conference got a bye. So in order to get to the NBA Finals in 1961 the Celtics had to win ONE series. And it happened to be against a 38-41 team. That's the last time anyone has done what he did. You want to destroy him because he hasn't had a high enough level of competition when THATS THE ONLY TEAM THAT HAS EVER DONE WHAT HE IS DOING.

Would it be more impressive if he were coming out of the west every year? Of course. Does that mean this isn't amazing? Certainly not.

[diamenz]

I bold people's quotes so you/they know what my post is referring to. That hard for you to understand?

What are the points you made that I missed??

is it that hard? here's my post:


for anyone else it would be, but for someone like lebron who promises not one, not two or three, flops on a regular, colludes, cramps up like a trick and whines like a bitch it really ain't shit.

you bold out "cramps" and completely ignore everything else listed, and in the process miss/ignore the general message i'm trying to get across in response to the op.

it's whatever man. you bron stans, or any stans for that matter fail to see it any other way besides their own.

[Hey Yo]

is it that hard? here's my post:



you bold out "cramps" and completely ignore everything else listed, and in the process miss/ignore the general message i'm trying to get across in response to the op.

it's whatever man. you bron stans, or any stans for that matter fail to see it any other way besides their own.
The general message you made is "I hate LeBron"

You use a pep rally that Miami had against him by talking how many titles. Have you ever been to a pep rally? Do they tell the fans that "we're going to suck, don't bother coming to the games cause we're going to lose"

You say that he whines. He's the only player in the history of the game to question calls/non-calls?

You say he colludes. Collusion means he did something illegal or deceitful. Can you tell me by him exercising his right by being a UFA what he did was illegal and against the NBA's rules? Why didn't Stern step in?

Bottom line dude is you're just a sheep following what you think the "kewl kids" are doing.

[beastee]

Drafted by and then signed on with a historically bad franchise who's never won a title, were the worst team in the league, played for Paul Silas and Mike Brown and having a revolving door of teammates in his first 7yrs...... isn't considered a challenge???
The Bulls were a pretty bad franchise that only were competitive by signing free agents who were past their prime before Jordan got there. They had to replace coaches that were not right for MJ, and took a chance on a younger Phil Jackson. They crafted a team built around their superstar the right way and he never entertained leaving even when facing all time great teams like the Celtics and Pistons. The challenge of overtaking an incredibly tough conference and elevating his homegrown team is what truly made him the GOAT. Lebron left to an easy situation in a historically weak conference, hence his great success arriving to the Finals. He is a top 10 player, no doubt, but to try and bring Jordan down by saying he was unsuccessful in his early years just shows how hard you are trying to elevate your King, and it really cries of desperation.

[diamenz]

you're kidding me right. you know exactly what i mean when i use the word "collude". it may not be the webster's definition of the word, but you get it. he jumped ship. players that are in the goat conversation don't do shit like that.

and who holds a pep rally like that? you'd think these dudes were the second coming of the backstreet boys, lol. to come with that kind of shit and then lose in the finals that same year is pretty bad.

it's not about questioning calls. lebron james is the biggest baby the nba has ever seen ffs. dude's a straight up drama queen.

i don't hate lebron man. i think he's an incredible player and he's proved that. but it's very, very hard to respect someone like him when you measure him fully.

[Disaprine]

:roll:

the excuses never end.

[NBAGOAT]

you're kidding me right. you know exactly what i mean when i use the word "collude". it may not be the webster's definition of the word, but you get it. he jumped ship. players that are in the goat conversation don't do shit like that.

and who holds a pep rally like that? you'd think these dudes were the second coming of the backstreet boys, lol. to come with that kind of shit and then lose in the finals that same year is pretty bad.

it's not about questioning calls. lebron james is the biggest baby the nba has ever seen ffs. dude's a straight up drama queen.

i don't hate lebron man. i think he's an incredible player and he's proved that. but it's very, very hard to respect someone like him when you measure him fully.

I mean that was 5 years ago. The pep rally leaves a bad taste in your mouth but it shouldn't have much to do with rating Lebron as a player. If people thought that was bad and want to lower him in their rankings, then Karl Malone shouldn't be in anyone's top 50 for what he did. Plenty of other greats have been traded or signed with better teams. The greats who don't leave usually don't need too.

[Hey Yo]

The Bulls were a pretty bad franchise that only were competitive by signing free agents who were past their prime before Jordan got there. They had to replace coaches that were not right for MJ, and took a chance on a younger Phil Jackson. They crafted a team built around their superstar the right way and he never entertained leaving even when facing all time great teams like the Celtics and Pistons. The challenge of overtaking an incredibly tough conference and elevating his homegrown team is what truly made him the GOAT. Lebron left to an easy situation in a historically weak conference, hence his great success arriving to the Finals. He is a top 10 player, no doubt, but to try and bring Jordan down by saying he was unsuccessful in his early years just shows how hard you are trying to elevate your King, and it really cries of desperation.
Where did I bring down Jordan to elevate LeBron? I didn't write the article on the 1st page.

The poster tpols said "LeBron never embraced a challenge." His first 7yrs was def. a challenge....no?

MJ signed a 8yr deal in 1988 worth 25mil over the life of the contract. Why would he leave when he was one of the few players who could make 7 figures a year? That was great money back then.....especially for a person who has a gambling addiction.

James had a chance to leave, but signed an extension while still under his rookie contract.

What great to very good UFA's signed with Cleveland those first 7yrs? Hell, when has Cleveland ever been a destiny for UFA's over their history before LeBron got there? He got to play with Boozer his rookie year and then Boozer went back on is word and bolted.

They didn't get many lottery picks like Chicago did after drafting MJ. 2004 was the only lottery pick Cavs had James' first 7yrs there...the mighty Luke Jackson, 10th overall. Certainly not the 5th overall that the Bulls traded for.

Bottom line is that Chicago drafted / traded well and the Cavs did not. MJ got to play with the core of Pippen and Grant for 6 straight years. James got to play with a revolving door of starters his first 7yrs.

Not hard to see that he was thirsty to play with better teammates and he wasn't going to get that by staying in Cleveland.

[GoSpursGo1984]

Where did I bring down Jordan to elevate LeBron? I didn't write the article on the 1st page.

The poster tpols said "LeBron never embraced a challenge." His first 7yrs was def. a challenge....no?

MJ signed a 8yr deal in 1988 worth 25mil over the life of the contract. Why would he leave when he was one of the few players who could make 7 figures a year? That was great money back then.....especially for a person who has a gambling addiction.

James had a chance to leave, but signed an extension while still under his rookie contract.

What great to very good UFA's signed with Cleveland those first 7yrs? Hell, when has Cleveland ever been a destiny for UFA's over their history before LeBron got there? He got to play with Boozer his rookie year and then Boozer went back on is word and bolted.

They didn't get many lottery picks like Chicago did after drafting MJ. 2004 was the only lottery pick Cavs had James' first 7yrs there...the mighty Luke Jackson, 10th overall. Certainly not the 5th overall that the Bulls traded for.

Bottom line is that Chicago drafted / traded well and the Cavs did not. MJ got to play with the core of Pippen and Grant for 6 straight years. James got to play with a revolving door of starters his first 7yrs.

Not hard to see that he was thirsty to play with better teammates and he wasn't going to get that by staying in Cleveland.

2006-2007 4 Cavs averaged over 10ppg
2007-2008 6 Cavs averaged over 10ppg
2008-2009 4 Cavs averaged over 10ppg

[Dresta]

ESPN are unbelievably pathetic :facepalm

Apparently waltzing through a shit and injury-riddled conference is one of the greatest NBA achievements ever, even though it's been topped off with 2 complete disappearing acts, and two other rather underwhelming performances (with one of these soon to number 3). Utter claptrap. As if winning and performing your best on the biggest stage is not important...Lebron has only played up to his normal standards in one out of 6 finals; they can bring up his ECF PER all they like, but what about his finals PER? Or his finals shooting percentages... How can one be important, and the other not matter?

[Dresta]

The general message you made is "I hate LeBron"

You use a pep rally that Miami had against him by talking how many titles. Have you ever been to a pep rally? Do they tell the fans that "we're going to suck, don't bother coming to the games cause we're going to lose"

You say that he whines. He's the only player in the history of the game to question calls/non-calls?

You say he colludes. Collusion means he did something illegal or deceitful. Can you tell me by him exercising his right by being a UFA what he did was illegal and against the NBA's rules? Why didn't Stern step in?

Bottom line dude is you're just a sheep following what you think the "kewl kids" are doing.
Collusion doesn't mean illegal you congenital imbecile. It is enough for it to be secret, which it was, as he crudely toyed with the emotions of his hometown team to prop up his own ego, and pretended he didn't know what he was going to do right up until the last minute, when he clearly did.

[sportjames23]

Hey Yo is melting the **** down. :oldlol:

[Just2McFly]

I'm gonna put it to you like this, the people that cling to 6/6 arguments cannot apply that logic to anything else in life. It's literally nonsense, of course no one wants to lose in the finals, but losing is still losing my dude. It makes no sense to want to lose earlier to improve your record, lmao.

[Hey Yo]

2006-2007 4 Cavs averaged over 10ppg
Why include James in the starting cast??

The 3 starters in double figures were Big Z, Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden. Other starters throughout the reg. season. Eric Snow for 45gms, Sasha Pav. for 28 and Gibson for 16.


2007-2008 6 Cavs averaged over 10ppg
Yet Big Z was the only other "STARTER" to play close to the whole season (73gms)

Danny Ferry traded like a mad man and completely overhauled the team in the middle of the season.


In a complex, 11-player swap involving Cleveland, Chicago and Seattle, Ferry dealt half his active roster to acquire center Ben Wallace and forward Joe Smith from the Bulls, and forward Wally Szczerbiak and guard Delonte West from the SuperSonics.

That's 3 new starters to gel with in less than 3mos. before the playoffs start.


2008-2009 4 Cavs averaged over 10ppg
2 different starters that year from the previous year once the playoffs started...... Mo and Varejao.



Hell, let's do 2009-10

Shaq, Jamison, and Anthony Parker.....3 new starters once the playoffs started.

Like I said....revolving door of starters for James' first 7yrs in the league. But all I heard after "the decison" was ..."if he stuck around good UFA's would have come" and "Jamario Moon and JJ Hickson need time to develop" :rolleyes:

[Hey Yo]

Collusion doesn't mean illegal you congenital imbecile. It is enough for it to be secret, which it was, as he crudely toyed with the emotions of his hometown team to prop up his own ego, and pretended he didn't know what he was going to do right up until the last minute, when he clearly did.
Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Full Definition of collusion. : secret agreement or cooperation especially for anillegal or deceitful purpose.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion

Collusion- An often secret action taken by two or more parties to achieve an illegal or improper purpose.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collusion


Need any more examples you stupid fat piece of shit?

[Overdrive]

Getting to the Finals six straight times is an amazing accomplishment for James and his teams, even if he didn't win the title every time. The 2-4 stat is a clever sleight of hand. It turns a success into a failure, no different than walking up to a college graduate and tearing up the diploma because it didn't have summa *** laude written on it.

Summa *** laude is the finals MVP. Losing in the finals would mean getting all the way to the point you only have to hand in your master/doctor thesis, but you won't do it.

[diamenz]

Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Full Definition of collusion. : secret agreement or cooperation especially for anillegal or deceitful purpose.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion

Collusion- An often secret action taken by two or more parties to achieve an illegal or improper purpose.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collusion


Need any more examples you stupid fat piece of shit?

who gives a shit about the webster's definition. when it's used here, you know what it means.

[Phong]

sometimes illegal...

illegal or deceitful purpose

illegal or improper purpose

Selective quoting, huh?

Let's not pretend Lebron didn't act as if he was gonna stay and made the Cavs fire their coach and overhaul the team while knowing for a long time that he was gonna bail on them. That's the definition of being deceitful.

[Remix]

I like how the LBJ fans talk about how reaching the finals 6 times in a row is such an accomplishment. Pretty sure every LBJ led team has been favored in EVERY series - maybe except 2011 bulls. So he beat the MVP Rose-led Bulls. I'm a Bulls fan and felt like the Heat were the better team the whole time.

So which way do you want it LBJ fans? If the Finals record doesn't matter because you were underdogs, reaching the finals 6 years straight doesn't matter because you were the favorites. You choose.

[Hey Yo]

Selective quoting, huh?

Let's not pretend Lebron didn't act as if he was gonna stay and made the Cavs fire their coach and overhaul the team while knowing for a long time that he was gonna bail on them. That's the definition of being deceitful.
LOL.......yeah, he didn't want to win a title those first 7yrs. He loved having the revolving door of new starters just about every year. :rolleyes:

Dude said collusion didn't mean illegal.... I showed him it did. How is that selective quoting?

If I was trying to hide something I wouldn't have posted the word deceitful with the definition.....right?


He made the Cavs fire Mike Brown? Gotta link?

James knew for a long time he was going to bail? Exactly when and how long did he know?

Gotta link for that one also or you just talking out of your ass some more?

[eliteballer]

Playing on historically stacked teams in a historically weak conference..

[Dresta]

Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Full Definition of collusion. : secret agreement or cooperation especially for anillegal or deceitful purpose.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion

Collusion- An often secret action taken by two or more parties to achieve an illegal or improper purpose.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collusion


Need any more examples you stupid fat piece of shit?
So apparently you don't even know what "sometimes" or "or" or "often" or "especially" mean :roll:

Here's a hint: it doesn't mean always.


God you're thick.

Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition just for you:

[QUOTE]collusion |kəˈl(j)uːʒ(ə)n|
noun [ mass noun ]
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others: the armed forces were working in collusion with drug traffickers.

ORIGIN late Middle English: from Latin collusio(n-), from colludere

[warriorfan]

people who try to say that lebron didn't "collude" or whatever on this forum have brain damage

[Hey Yo]

Here's your exact words.....correct??


Collusion doesn't mean illegal

[Glide2keva]

ESPN still copping pleas for lebrun.

[ImKobe]

I like how the LBJ fans talk about how reaching the finals 6 times in a row is such an accomplishment. Pretty sure every LBJ led team has been favored in EVERY series - maybe except 2011 bulls. So he beat the MVP Rose-led Bulls. I'm a Bulls fan and felt like the Heat were the better team the whole time.

So which way do you want it LBJ fans? If the Finals record doesn't matter because you were underdogs, reaching the finals 6 years straight doesn't matter because you were the favorites. You choose.

This. He had enough help around him that he was supposed to win these series.

The toughest series Lebron had was against the out of prime Boston big 3 in a lockout year where teams had to play b2b2b games and he had one aberration shooting game in a series where Doc Rivers had Brandon Bass guard him in a Game 7.

[DonDadda59]

Damn, meltdown/excuse season came early this year. Didn't even wait for game 2 of a potential 7 game series. Bron stans were already jumping ship and shitting on another set of Bron teammates (you know, the ones he makes better) before halftime of Game 1.

I bet you if the Cavs pull off a series win, that's the last you'll ever hear about how impressive it is to get embarrassed time and time and time and time and time again in the Finals. :yaohappy:

[kamil]

LeCollusion is about to feel the wrath of karma and go 2/7! Greatest runner-up of all time!

[stephanieg]

Everyone who started ragging on LeBron after The Decision are bandwagoners. Where were you when he was crab dribbling and stiff arming his way past the Wizards? Or when he shot 35% against the Spurs and got outplayed by Tony Parker.

[Overdrive]

Here's your exact words.....correct??

Do you know what "or" means?

[kamil]

Everyone who started ragging on LeBron after The Decision are bandwagoners. Where were you when he was crab dribbling and stiff arming his way past the Wizards? Or when he shot 35% against the Spurs and got outplayed by Tony Parker.

He's still stiff arming and crab dribbling.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2cglyqs.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D9VaSNK6is0/UyYfutznV2I/AAAAAAAAD4U/k9n_yLUTfIM/s1600/1.gif

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFfh20_WgAE-R-t.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHgdSveUAAA5LeB.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/V36IbdyTv10/hqdefault.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2016/6UQyDR.gif

[sportjames23]

He's still stiff arming and crab dribbling.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2cglyqs.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D9VaSNK6is0/UyYfutznV2I/AAAAAAAAD4U/k9n_yLUTfIM/s1600/1.gif

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFfh20_WgAE-R-t.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHgdSveUAAA5LeB.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/V36IbdyTv10/hqdefault.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2016/6UQyDR.gif


Damn, how does he get away with that blatant pushing off?

I know stars get calls/get away with shit, but most of the time, it's not that damn noticeable.

[Hey Yo]

Do you know what "or" means?
Do you that the word illegal wouldn't appear in multiple sources of the definition if it wasn't considered illegal?

Understand now, Chico?