How Can LeBron Be A top 10 GOAT when He CANT Take Over? No Jumpshot or 3pter LOL

[AirTupac]

Top 20 as of now. Legacy is tarnishing as we speak

[stalkerforlife]

He's not a top 10 great.

That was a marketing ploy by the NBA and his endorsers that preyed on the mindless sheep that follow the game, but don't quite understand it.

[imnew09]

Only time he took over was the GM job.

LeGm assembled his whole avengers, players , staff, coaching, yet he still losing

[AirTupac]

LeGm spent 108 mill (30 more mill than his Heat team) and still needs more help

[TomCat]

This thread is a 2 star thread.

Everyone knows Lebron is in the mid teens

[Goofsta Knicca]

LeBUM

[Eye Test]

20-30 is my range for him

[sportjames23]

This thread is a 2 star thread.

Everyone knows Lebron is in the mid teens


Out of 7?

[theaussieguy]

exactly OP, its like getting 100m from the top of everest, what ****ing good is it if you don't have the balls to get that to the very top?

An absolute waste of genetic gifts. People act like Lebron is this hard working team player. The reality is, yea he works hard, in the gym, because he enjoys looking good. The man cares more about his hairline than his jumpshot for christ sake.

[3ball]

.
Jordan shot FAR better than Curry from midrange and inside 20 feet, on 6 times the volume:




Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 48.9%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga



.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Interestingly, good shooting isn't needed to be a top scorer in today's game - Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have poor midrange and 3-point, yet they're still top scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had the goat midrange efficiency, which would give him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebrick, Westbrick and company.

[ShawkFactory]

Well at his peak he could make them.

He's had a very good career and an absolutely top 10 peak. He's borderline top 10 overall. I can see arguments for having him both inside and outside.

Depends on how his career ends.

[zeerghit]

virgins talk, f*ck lebron for his bs, but as a player, hes top 10 atleast(most likely 7-9), tell me 10 players u take over lebron?

[3ball]

you guys are funny

[LAZERUSS]

virgins talk, f*ck lebron for his bs, but as a player, hes top 10 atleast(most likely 7-9), tell me 10 players u take over lebron?

100% right on.

But he is nowhere near ESPN's #3.

[3ball]

100% right on.

But he is nowhere near ESPN's #3.


:rolleyes:

[3ball]

virgins talk, f*ck lebron for his bs, but as a player, hes top 10 atleast(most likely 7-9), tell me 10 players u take over lebron?



That's easy:


Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
Moses Malone
Dr. J
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah
Garnett
David Robinson



if you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, they do FAR better than 2/7, especially in an all-time weak conference

[tpols]

That's easy:


Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
Moses Malone
Dr. J
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah
Garnett
David Robinson



if you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, they do FAR better than 2/7, especially in an all-time weak conference
.


hell, KG did exactly that at the end of his prime, except colluding w/ nobody of top 5 caliber, he was injured a year, and he still went 1/2. :lol

[pauk]

What do you mean he cant? Like he has never done that before? Like he cant do that every game maybe, is there such a player in history? Well, as a Kobe fan, can you be more specific of what a take over is using him as an example in a Finals game or just any playoff game for example... because if Kobe has proven he can take over in the playoffs / Finals, then Lebron has aswell... i can help you with that, but you wont like the result....

If you are going by "no jumpshot or 3pt shot" (like if Lebron was Shaq or something) then you will have to remove a couple of guys from the top 10.....

[tpols]

What do you mean he cant? Like he has never done that before? Like he cant do that every game maybe, is there such a player in history? Well, as a Kobe fan, can you be more specific of what a take over is using him as an example in a Finals game or just any playoff game for example... because if Kobe has proven he can take over in the playoffs / Finals, then Lebron has aswell... i can help you with that, but you wont like the result....

If you are going by "no jumpshot or 3pt shot" (like if Lebron was Shaq or something) then you will have to remove a couple of guys from the top 10.....


shaq had elite post game and required a double .. nice try pauk.

[pauk]

if you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, they do FAR better than 2/7, especially in an all-time weak conference

Maybe, its as correct and as the same hypothetics as:

If you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with something equivalent of Jordans supporting cast, they do also 6/6, especially in an all-time weak era of competition.

[bigkingsfan]

if you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, they do FAR better than 2/7, especially in an all-time weak conference
Even if they met MJ in the finals. :eek:

[pauk]

shaq had elite post game and required a double .. nice try pauk.

Lebron didnt require a double?

Yes, nice try tpols.

[tpols]

Lebron didnt require a double?

Yes, nice try tpols.

Lebron is sagged off of all game, and is only met by rim protectors, at the rim.. which all players are met with when they reach the rim. Warriors are gluing the shooters and single coverage sagging off bron daring him to beat them with a jumper. Dont lie pauk, its not good for you.

[3ball]

Lebron didnt require a double?

Yes, nice try tpols.



In the 2015 Finals, Lebron was double-teamed a total of 18 times, or 3 times per game:



"When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team


Otoh, Jordan often faced EVERY POSSESSION double-teaming, especially against the Pistons' "Jordan Rules".. Here's an example from 1989 ECF Game 6, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. All 10 double-teams shown are shown in gifs here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88)

[LAZERUSS]

4 Time MVP, 2 Time FMVP, 2 Rings, Career 28 ppg scorer in the post-season, which includes four runs of 30+ ppg, and the highest ppg average in must win playoff games in NBA history.

Definitely Top-10.

But again...nowhere near #3.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's top 10 in my book, but I wouldn't be mad if anyone had him outside of it.

Guy has been unreliable from midrange most of his career, making him an average iso player when games slow down and there aren't enough possessions in transition. Teams sagging off and literally daring him to shoot is incredibly disrespectful. Don't think I've seen another perimeter superstar get that sorta treatment.

LeBron's passing has always been his best weapon (to a degree it frees him up to score), but his defense comes and goes. These past 2 games @ GS he's been awful on that end.

[NBAGOAT]

he's fringe top 5. How many guys have a better peak besides MJ, Shaq and maybe Kareem. Same for his prime too 09,10,12,13,14 are 5 ridiculous years. MJ(88-93) and Kareem(because of how long it was) have better primes but that's it.

[stalkerforlife]

That's easy:


Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
Moses Malone
Dr. J
Karl Malone
Barkley
Isiah
Garnett
David Robinson



if you let karl malone, garnett, isiah, Dr. J, or david robinson collude with 2 other guys with top 5 PER's, they do FAR better than 2/7, especially in an all-time weak conference

Exactly.

[3ball]

2 Rings


via collusion

fact





Career 28 ppg scorer in the post-season


Other guys averaged 27.5 ppg while still in their prime too, so Lebron's average will be lower by the end of his career just like theirs were.

Most importantly, it's statistical fact that he achieves his PPG and APG at the expense of teammates' PPG and APG:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841


Guys like Isiah, Robinson, the Malones, and Garnett didn't achieve their stats at the expense of teammates' stats and brand of basketball.





highest ppg average in must win playoff games in NBA history.


This is a lie - in 2007 Finals, he scored 25 points on 33% shooting in must-win Game 4

In 2011 Finals, he scored 18 points in must-win Game 6

In 2014 Finals, he scored 25 points in must-win Game 5

This year, he will probably be aids in the elimination game as usual.

[GINOBILI!]

Lebron didnt require a double?

Yes, nice try tpols.
The better teams play him straight up. Poorly coached teams double him and lose because of his passing.

[riseagainst]

Lebron didnt require a double?

Yes, nice try tpols.


when you are given 5 feet to shoot, that's not doubling.

:lol

[LAZERUSS]

via collusion

fact



Other guys averaged 27.5 ppg while still in their prime too, so Lebron's average will be lower by the end of his career just like theirs were.

Most importantly, it's statistical fact that he achieves his PPG and APG at the expense of teammates' PPG and APG:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841


Guys like Isiah, Robinson, the Malones, and Garnett didn't achieve their stats at the expense of teammates' stats and brand of basketball.



This is a lie - in 2007 Finals, he scored 25 points on 33% shooting in must-win Game 4

In 2011 Finals, he scored 18 points in must-win Game 6

In 2014 Finals, he scored 25 points in must-win Game 5

This year, he will probably be aids in the elimination game as usual.



It is a FACT.

15 MUST WIN PLAYOFF GAMES

478 Points
31.9 ppg

162-353 FG/FGA
.459

Of course, his eFG% is somewhat higher since I did not adjust for his 3pt FGAs.

FACT.

Highest post-season scorer in MUST WIN games in playoff history.

[3ball]

It is a FACT.

15 MUST WIN PLAYOFF GAMES

478 Points
31.9 ppg

162-353 FG/FGA
.459

Of course, his eFG% is somewhat higher since I did not adjust for his 3pt FGAs.

FACT.

Highest post-season scorer in MUST WIN games in playoff history.


Show your work or your source.. I don't believe Lebron's average was that high, and I believe Jordan's average was higher

Not that it matters - Jordan never faced a must-win game in the Finals - he won every Finals in 6 games or less, so the stat is meaningless.

Overall, Jordan averaged 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - this is more valuable and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

If Lebron averaged 6 more points with better efficiency, he'd be on another level entirely

[ballinhun8]

It is a FACT.

15 MUST WIN PLAYOFF GAMES

478 Points
31.9 ppg

162-353 FG/FGA
.459

Of course, his eFG% is somewhat higher since I did not adjust for his 3pt FGAs.

FACT.

Highest post-season scorer in MUST WIN games in playoff history.



A must win to you is facing elimination correct? Because 15 seems like alot for Bron.

[LAZERUSS]

A must win to you is facing elimination correct? Because 15 seems like alot for Bron.

Do-or-die.

These are not necessarily "elimination" games, because his team might be up 3-2. These are strictly, if his team loses, he is done.

15 of them.

[k0kakw0rld]

Top 20 as of now. Legacy is tarnishing as we speak
So you never saw a single of him taking over games? How long have you been watching the NBA? :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

Show your work or your source.. I don't believe Lebron's average was that high, and I believe Jordan's average was higher

Not that it matters - Jordan never faced a must-win game in the Finals - he won every Finals in 6 games or less, so the stat is meaningless.

Overall, Jordan averaged 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - this is more valuable and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

If Lebron averaged 6 more points with better efficiency, he'd be on another level entirely

I jotted these down without the dates, but you can go into bb-reference to confirm.

1. 27 pts on 11-24 FG/FGA
2. 24 on 10-30
3. 32 on 9-23
4. 45 on 14-29
5. 37 on 11-24
6. 25 on 8-20
7. 27 on 8-21
8. 21 on 9-15
9. 45 on 19-26
10. 31 on 9-21
11. 32 on 8-17
12. 32 on 11-26
13. 37 on 12-23
14. 31 on 10-21
15. 32 on 13-33

As for MJ, he didn't face elimination in his Finals, but he had elimination game playoff losses.

And I believe MJ was at 31.3 ppg in his must win games, and Chamberlain was #3 at 31.1 ppg.

As for must win, or series-clinching games, I know Wilt played in 37 of them, and averaged 29.5 ppg, 26.4 rpg, and shot .546 from the floor...all while just slaughtering his opposing centers, and with the majority of them against HOF centers.

[colts19]

It's hard to explain, but rarely does Bron impact on a game reflect the impact you see in a box score.

[3ball]

I believe Jordan's average was 31.3 in elimination games


Yeah, that won't cut it - you didn't provide source data for any of your stats.. I've run the numbers before and Jordan's average was higher.

Not that it matters - Jordan was too dominant for the stat to be relevant - he never faced a must-win game in the Finals, since he won every Finals in 6 games or less.





1. 27 pts on 11-24 FG/FGA
2. 24 on 10-30
3. 32 on 9-23
4. 45 on 14-29
5. 37 on 11-24
6. 25 on 8-20
7. 27 on 8-21
8. 21 on 9-15
9. 45 on 19-26
10. 31 on 9-21
11. 32 on 8-17
12. 32 on 11-26
13. 37 on 12-23
14. 31 on 10-21
15. 32 on 13-33


It's nonsensical to compare PPG, since Lebron has many series and even entire playoff runs where he wasn't his team's leading scorer, whereas Jordan led his team in scoring for every series of his career, by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. His goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest performance and biggest load ever carried.

Overall, Jordan averaged 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - this is more valuable and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers)... If Lebron averaged 6 more points with better efficiency, he'd be on another level entirely



CONTINUED....

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED ....





in elimination games



Jordan destroys Lebron in the clutch - look how much more he scored in the 4th quarter of playoffs and Finals - it's a joke:



..........PROPORTION (%) OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


............................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2012... 34.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 33.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 33.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
LEBRON 2013... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 30.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 39.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



Overall, Jordan averaged 6 more ppg in the playoffs and 8 ppg more in the Finals with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg), - this is more valuable and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 def rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.1 assist edge (with more turnovers).
.

[MP.Trey]

How can he not be a top 10 GOAT if 3ball is melting down about him?

[3ball]

How can Lebron not be a top 10 GOAT if 3ball is melting down about him


great logic.. I haven't even addressed the fantasy of Lebron's top 10 status - all i've done is post a bunch of facts and stats showing Jordan's vast superiority.

but regarding the fantasy of Lebron being top 10 - MANY players in history (maybe 100 or more) are capable of going 2/4 if they teamed up with 2 other players who were top 5 in PER.

For example, if David Robinson teamed up with Drexler and Kemp, he'd do far better than 2/4, or if Isiah teamed up with Bird and Mchale, or if Malone teamed up with Hakeem and grant hill, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc





How can he not be a top 10 GOAT


Lebron and GOAT don't belong in same sentence - Lebron has many series and even entire playoff runs where he wasn't his team's leading scorer, whereas Jordan led his team in scoring for every series of his career, by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49).. His goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the greatest performance and biggest load ever carried.

Overall, Jordan averaged 6 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) - this is more valuable and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers)... If Lebron averaged 6 more points with better efficiency, he'd be on another level entirely