How much better are Bird and Magic than Lebron and Curry?

[90sgoat]

I was thinking, yes, I've been spoilt, ruined, by watching the GOAT MJ live.

No player will likely ever compare.

What about the second tier tho. Bird and Magic, how much better were they than Lebron and Curry. A lot better probably. Showtime80s can you confirm, were they tiers above?

Some old timers may regale me about Kareem and Wilt.

I was thinking, maybe even without MJ in the 1990s, at least we had those 4-5 superstar centers, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, sustained excellence.

Without MJ, I think people would be raving about Bird and Magic and I as a 90s fan would probably stan Sir Charles and Shaq.

[NBAGOAT]

lebron from even 2 years ago is comparable to Magic and Bird at their best. Curry obviously doesn't have the resume yet of those 3 but he's going have a pretty good one by the end of his career most likely.

[90sgoat]

lebron from even 2 years ago is comparable to Magic and Bird at their best. Curry obviously doesn't have the resume yet of those 3 but he's going have a pretty good one by the end of his career most likely.

Honestly, I don't think Lebron is. I do think at his peak playing with Wade, they were very good, and they were entertaining. Thing is, you can't isolate Lebron from Wade, can't isolate those 2 man fastbreaks.

As a two man group, they were up there with the best, but Lebron no, he was never on Bird or Magic level of peak excellence.

[3ball]

.
It's funny... When you consider that Lebron's defense allowed 2 role players to win FMVP by scoring 5-8 points above their average with crazy efficiency, I can't think of a major aspect of the game that Lebron is better at.

Both Magic and Bird are better offensive players, better shooters, passers, post-up players, triple-threat players, off-ball players, much smarter, and much more clutch - seriously, what area is Lebron superior?

Lebron can't shoot and is a slow, bumbling player off-the-dribble - he needed 12 minutes time of possession in last year's Finals (50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes) to average 35 ppg on 33 shots.

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.
.

[NBAGOAT]

Honestly, I don't think Lebron is. I do think at his peak playing with Wade, they were very good, and they were entertaining. Thing is, you can't isolate Lebron from Wade, can't isolate those 2 man fastbreaks.

As a two man group, they were up there with the best, but Lebron no, he was never on Bird or Magic level of peak excellence.

well we have different opinions and I definitely get the arguments for Magic and Bird. Magic is arguably the goat offensive player and Bird has the better offball play intangibles rebounding and good case for passing too. However I would say a lot of people think they're fairly comparable and possibly even that Lebron is better. Example thread on ish from 3 years ago, even the Bird stans thought it was close. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300938

[FKAri]

Honestly, I don't think Lebron is. I do think at his peak playing with Wade, they were very good, and they were entertaining. Thing is, you can't isolate Lebron from Wade, can't isolate those 2 man fastbreaks.

As a two man group, they were up there with the best, but Lebron no, he was never on Bird or Magic level of peak excellence.
You can't isolate Magic and Bird from their stacked teams either. I think Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan are right there with Magic and Bird.

[Nastradamus]

Lebron
Larry/Magic
Curry

All are ATGs though

[ClipperRevival]

Magic and Bird were killers. They wanted to win more than almost anyone else and brought it. I'll take those guys on my team any day.

LeBron? Too many flaws in his game and is presence does render other players on his team ineffective due to his style. Plus, I don't like his beta attitude. He's not a natural leader. He doesn't inspire teammates.

Curry? I'll take his shooting but if you allow 80's/90's rules on him, you can REALLY slow him down. So he's got flaws too.

[3ball]

You can't isolate Magic and Bird from their stacked teams either.


Lebron had a big 3 just like Bird and Magic, plus the 2nd best shooter ever as his 4th option.

Magic and Bird did much better with their big 3 than Lebron did, even though they played each other in the Finals 3 times (Bird's only 2 Finals losses came to Magic's big 3).

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.. With Bird and Magic, it was the opposite - their style fostered superior teamwork and brand of basketball - that's the most important reason why they're better.
.

[NBAGOAT]

It's funny... When you consider that Lebron's defense allowed 2 role players to win FMVP by scoring 5-8 points above their average with crazy efficiency, I can't think of a major aspect of the game that Lebron is better at.

Both Magic and Bird are better offensive players, better shooters, passers, post-up players, triple-threat players, off-ball players, much smarter, and much more clutch - seriously, what area is Lebron superior?

Lebron can't shoot and is a slow, bumbling player off-the-dribble - he needed 12 minutes time of possession in last year's Finals (50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes) to average 35 ppg on 33 shots.

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.

Lebron's a better playmaker(difference between passing and playmaking), transition player, ball handler, finisher, slasher, and defender than Bird(even if he's underrated there) He's a better scorer, finisher and arguably slasher than Magic. Ofc the defense isn't really that close, Magic isn't bad but he's most likely the worst defender in the top 10.

[Duffy Pratt]

It would be really entertaining watching Le Bron turn McHale into a spot up three shooter. Magic and Bird were unbelievably versatile. Either of them could fit into just about any system and make their teammates better. With LeBron, it's Bron ball only. Put Bird or Magic onto those Miami teams, and they likely do better. Put Bron on those Laker teams, and Bird has a few more rings, and Magic has more rings if you switch Bron for Bird.

There is really nothing that he does better than them except flop and chew his mouthpiece. And if you throw in the intangible of killer instinct, he is not even in the same universe.

And for the guy who thinks Bron is as good a passer, and better playmaker and ball handlers

http://youtu.be/EhnRtgBGMl4

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/dYXnTEy.gif


Lebron can't shoot and is a slow, bumbling player off-the-dribble - he needed 12 minutes time of possession in last year's Finals (50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes) to average 35 ppg on 33 shots.

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.

Bird and Magic were the opposite - they fostered superior teamwork and brand of basketball, which is why they did better with their Big 3 than Lebron did with his.

[HurricaneKid]

Magic was a defensive sieve and couldn't shoot. Court vision was among the best ever. His height allowed him to do things no PG before him was able to achieve. Today? There are lots of tall PGs. And his shortcomings would be amplified.

Bird was a legendary shooter but did you know he never hit 100 3s in a season? I think if he played today he would be a great stretch 4. And while he was a good defender in the day, he was better as he got closer to the basket and playing in space the way todays game works would be problematic for him.

Both are far from flawless and the game today isn't kind to the areas they had troubles with.

[SexSymbol]

LeBron wishes he had half the skills of bird.
Of the mentioned players, he's by far the best followed by Magic and then so far Bron, but it's pretty arguable after GSW wins it's third title in a row.
Though, I think Curry at his absolute best is better than anybody.

[3ball]

LeBron wishes he had half the skills of bird.
Of the mentioned players, he's by far the best followed by Magic and then so far Bron, but it's pretty arguable after GSW wins it's third title in a row.
Though, I think Curry at his absolute best is better than anybody.


agree with everything except that last sentence - he's just a shooter - his all-round game doesn't compare to Magic or Bird.

[3ball]

It would be really entertaining watching Le Bron turn McHale into a spot up three shooter. Magic and Bird were unbelievably versatile. Either of them could fit into just about any system and make their teammates better. With LeBron, it's Bron ball only. Put Bird or Magic onto those Miami teams, and they likely do better. Put Bron on those Laker teams, and Bird has a few more rings, and Magic has more rings if you switch Bron for Bird.

There is really nothing that he does better than them except flop and chew his mouthpiece. And if you throw in the intangible of killer instinct, he is not even in the same universe.


https://media.giphy.com/media/ObfxaAyZgFyN2/giphy.gif


Lebron can't shoot and needs an excessive time of possession to get his stats - he needed 12 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) time of possession in last year's Finals (50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes) to average 35.8 ppg on 33 shots.

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.

Bird and Magic were the opposite - they fostered superior teamwork and brand of basketball, which is why they did better with their Big 3 than Lebron did with his.

[brain drain]

When people hold the 2/7 argument agains Lebron and call Bird a killer, that's just crazy.

Bird had very stacked teams as well - and lost quite a few times against lower-seeded teams, in spite of having HCA.

How is that better?

I'll just post something from here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/62492972



Shamelessly taken from realgm:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

[brain drain]

continued:


1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

[PP34Deuce]

It would be really entertaining watching Le Bron turn McHale into a spot up three shooter. Magic and Bird were unbelievably versatile. Either of them could fit into just about any system and make their teammates better. With LeBron, it's Bron ball only. Put Bird or Magic onto those Miami teams, and they likely do better. Put Bron on those Laker teams, and Bird has a few more rings, and Magic has more rings if you switch Bron for Bird.

There is really nothing that he does better than them except flop and chew his mouthpiece. And if you throw in the intangible of killer instinct, he is not even in the same universe.

And for the guy who thinks Bron is as good a passer, and better playmaker and ball handlers

http://youtu.be/EhnRtgBGMl4

It's really hard to say who's much better I think the ultimate advantage for Lebron is he's naturally so much more athletic that he gets passes off with distance and speed faster than Bird. Magic is the only guy who had that sick speed to getting the ball.

[HurricaneKid]

https://media.giphy.com/media/ObfxaAyZgFyN2/giphy.gif


Lebron can't shoot and needs an excessive time of possession to get his stats - he needed 12 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) time of possession in last year's Finals (50% higher than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes) to average 35.8 ppg on 33 shots.

The guy is 2/7 because his ball-dominant style from the forward position invariably fosters inferior teamwork and brand of basketball.

Bird and Magic were the opposite - they fostered superior teamwork and brand of basketball, which is why they did better with their Big 3 than Lebron did with his.

Let be real. Both Magic and Bird had HoF teammates that came off the bench. LeBron had two guys in Mia that were healthy making > league min that first year and by Y4 Wade was washed.

LeBron looked pretty great last round playing almost exclusively off ball. I think LeBron himself would tell you he hated playing the brand of ball he played in the Finals last year.

[Duffy Pratt]

It's really hard to say who's much better I think the ultimate advantage for Lebron is he's naturally so much more athletic that he gets passes off with distance and speed faster than Bird. Magic is the only guy who had that sick speed to getting the ball.

In some ways LeBron is more athletic. He's faster, jumps higher, and is probably stronger (not sure on that). Both have great court vision, but Bird has quicker hands and reactions. Take a look in that video, or the one I've posted below where Bird takes a broken play or a loose ball that he has dived for and turns it into a stunning pass, nearly instantaneously. I've never seen anyone else do that sort of thing with the regularity that Bird did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mF9xdLyJGA

[Bankaii]

As players?

Lebron
Magic
Bird
Curry

Career wise:
Magic
Bird/Lebron
Curry

Anyone that doesn't think Lebron is a better individual player/talent than Bird/Magic is just dumb.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Peak

Lebron/Curry
Bird/Magic

Career

Magic
Lebron
Bird
Curry (not even close to the others, which are all top 10)

[HighFlyer23]

Lebron is in the same boat as them

Curry is not ... he still has a long way to go

[SexSymbol]

agree with everything except that last sentence - he's just a shooter - his all-round game doesn't compare to Magic or Bird.
I'm talking about stretches of pure domination.
When you can hit 6-7 threes in a quarter, you kill the competition.
None of the guys on the ATG list can do that.
Curry's definitely not just a shooter, pound for pound he's a better rebounder than bron, one of the best floor generals I've ever seen and he's a good defender to top it all off.
Also, mentally tough as hell on the court, not afraid of any big situation or anyone.

[bdreason]

Magic and Bird are top 10.

LeBron is top 15.

Curry is top 25ish, but climbing.

[PsychoBe]

As players?

Lebron
Magic
Bird
Curry

Career wise:
Magic
Bird/Lebron
Curry

Anyone that doesn't think Lebron is a better individual player/talent than Bird/Magic is just dumb.

bankaii is at it again :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hey Yo]

When people hold the 2/7 argument agains Lebron and call Bird a killer, that's just crazy.

Bird had very stacked teams as well - and lost quite a few times against lower-seeded teams, in spite of having HCA.

How is that better?

I'll just post something from here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000208-sports-and-racing-nba/62492972
:applause:

[Bankaii]

bankaii is at it again :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Look at your username.
That alone tells me your opinion on basketball is useless.
And 4 smileys? You're so desperate.