Small Ball- The Warriors Strength & Achilles Heel?

[DonDadda59]

The league has obviously moved towards the small ball paradigm the past few seasons with the Warriors being the poster children for that movement. They often put the 6'7" Draymond Green at center, play uptempo, and everyone bombs away from 3 (including Speights now too apparently :oldlol: ). Typically in response to this, most coaches try to match their lineups by going small themselves. The past 2 years, that has never worked. Teams who try to match the Warriors small ball with their own variations get absolutely run out of the gym.

But in last year's Finals, the depleted Cavs gave the Dubs a run for their money by playing with a traditional lineup (7 ft Mosgov at C, Thompson at 4, etc). They gave GSW hell and took 2 games off of them when on paper the series should've been a sweep with the Cavs missing 2 of their top 3 players.

Then this year, the same thing happened in the series with OKC. Instead of trying to go small for small, Billy Donovan stuck with a traditional lineup with Adams at center. This caused massive issues for the Warriors and they came dangerously close to losing in 6 games. I'd go so far as to say that outside of a few 4th quarters in the last 2 games when the Thunder's stars completely imploded, OKC looked to be the better team.

Same pattern seems to be repeating itself so far in this Finals series. The first 2 games saw the Cavs playing Love like he was a SG, hanging out at the 3-pt line and chucking 3s... Cavs got demolished both games. But in Game 3, out of necessity like in the '15 Finals, the Cavs were forced to go with a more traditional lineup. Tristan Thompson looked like David Robinson, the Cavs had a +20 rebound advantage, and GSW was blown out of the water.

At what point does it stop being a coincidence? Do you think the Cavs will go back to playing Euro ball once Love is back or do they stick with what gave them a blowout win? :confusedshrug:

[livinglegend]

The league has obviously moved towards the small ball paradigm the past few seasons with the Warriors being the poster children for that movement. They often put the 6'7" Draymond Green at center, play uptempo, and everyone bombs away from 3 (including Speights now too apparently :oldlol: ). Typically in response to this, most coaches try to match their lineups by going small themselves. The past 2 years, that has never worked. Teams who try to match the Warriors small ball with their own variations get absolutely run out of the gym.

But in last year's Finals, the depleted Cavs gave the Dubs a run for their money by playing with a traditional lineup (7 ft Mosgov at C, Thompson at 4, etc). They gave GSW hell and took 2 games off of them when on paper the series should've been a sweep with the Cavs missing 2 of their top 3 players.

Then this year, the same thing happened in the series with OKC. Instead of trying to go small for small, Billy Donovan stuck with a traditional lineup with Adams at center. This caused massive issues for the Warriors and they came dangerously close to losing in 6 games. I'd go so far as to say that outside of a few 4th quarters in the last 2 games when the Thunder's stars completely imploded, OKC looked to be the better team.

Same pattern seems to be repeating itself so far in this Finals series. The first 2 games saw the Cavs playing Love like he was a SG, hanging out at the 3-pt line and chucking 3s... Cavs got demolished both games. But in Game 3, out of necessity like in the '15 Finals, the Cavs were forced to go with a more traditional lineup. Tristan Thompson looked like David Robinson, the Cavs had a +20 rebound advantage, and GSW was blown out of the water.

At what point does it stop being a coincidence? Do you think the Cavs will go back to playing Euro ball once Love is back or do they stick with what gave them a blowout win? :confusedshrug:

:biggums:
They played 6'7 Richard Jefferson as the pf. How is that a more traditional lineup?
Warriors with Green 6'7 as pf and Bogut 7'0 is small ball, but Cavs with Jefferson 6'7 as pf and Thompson 6'9 as center is not small ball?

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:
They played 6'7 Richard Jefferson as the pf. How is that a more traditional lineup?
Warriors with Green 6'7 as pf and Bogut 7'0 is small ball, but Cavs with Jefferson 6'7 as pf and Thompson 6'9 as center is not small ball?

Bron was at the 4 and Bogut played all of 12 minutes in Game 3. And it's not always about sheer height, but also playing style. Thompson and Love are roughly the same size but whereas Kev is more than happy to hang out at the 3 and chuck all day, Thompson is a banger on the inside- loves fighting for boards and doesn't have an outside game to speak of. He was 5-6 on FGs and had 13 rebounds (including 7 offensive). Bron playing closer to the basket against a tiny lineup had 11 boards himself while only taking 2 3s.

Cavs +20 on the boards.

[livinglegend]

Bron was at the 4 and Bogut played all of 12 minutes in Game 3. And it's not always about sheer height, but also playing style. Thompson and Love are roughly the same size but whereas Kev is more than happy to hang out at the 3 and chuck all day, Thompson is a banger on the inside- loves fighting for boards and doesn't have an outside game to speak of. He was 5-6 on FGs and had 13 rebounds (including 7 offensive). Bron playing closer to the basket against a tiny lineup had 11 boards himself while only taking 2 3s.

Cavs +20 on the boards.

Yeah, but Thompson also played the other games. He didn't replace Love.
Jefferson replaced Love and on offense, Jefferson was also standing at the 3 just like Love.
Lebron always played close to the basket on offense. I don't get your point. He didn't change his style of play compared to games 1 and 2.
Lebron did get lots of rebounds, but Love also averaged 9 rebounds a game.
And even with Lebron at 4 instead of Jefferson, I don't see how it's more of a traditional lineup when Lebron is atually a sf.

[rmt]

Why do you think Pop has moved away from the Beautiful Game and gone to slow down, throw it into the post? You can't beat GSW at that game with great 3pt shooters like Curry and Thompson. The only chance you have is to slow it down, control the pace, limit possessions.

I felt that OKC was the better team - they outplayed them in every aspect except the 3 point line. Unfortunately, you can't go against the math. 3 > 2 and when Curry and Thompson can make those ridiculously shots ...

Was it Musgov who looked like Wilt last year?

[Akrazotile]

First of all, even though Im not a big fan of Love, I think people are downplaying the simple fact that the Cavs were finally playing at home, and the buzz of playing a big game in your arena - especially for the first time in a series - gives you a lift. It's possible this was the biggest reason for the turnaround.

As far as Love, here is what I see:

Because of his status as a 'star', the Cavs seem to feel obligated to force feed him in the post to 'get him going'. But really, he's not a great post player. He's not terrible, but he's not Duncan or Shaq obviously. He doesnt get deep position and often spends half the shot clock trying to figure out a move to put on his man from too far away and eventually puts up some awkward shot that misses. On the other hand, when he camps out at the three point line, it has little benefit because he's not an elite shooter like a Dirk or Durant, but moreover he cant out the ball on the floor and drive to the hoop like Richard Jefferson can. That's the biggest difference to me. If you swing it to RJ on the perimeter, he can knock down a shot at the same clip as Love but also has the choice of putting it on the floor and creating something. This makes the offense just flow much more smoothly.

Love just doesnt offer anything special to this team offensively. I think people believe bc he's a 4 that can shoot threes it creates a mismatch, but if you play RJ at the 4 then it still brings a defending big away from the basket, but then who also has to be able to defend off the dribble. Love is just too easy to defend. And too often they stagnate the offense by trying to give him 'requirement touches' simply because he's considered a star. But hes really not a star. And in a way, even tho he's a very smart and willing passer, the term 'ball stopper' is appropriate for him. Just not good for the offense.

[DonDadda59]

Why do you think Pop has moved away from the Beautiful Game and gone to slow down, throw it into the post? You can't beat GSW at that game with great 3pt shooters like Curry and Thompson. The only chance you have is to slow it down, control the pace, limit possessions.

I felt that OKC was the better team - they outplayed them in every aspect except the 3 point line. Unfortunately, you can't go against the math. 3 > 2 and when Curry and Thompson can make those ridiculously shots ...

I wonder if other coaches have been paying attention to what Donovan did. When teams try to match their small lineups and try to outrun/outshoot them, they get blown out and GSW looks like an ATG World Beater. When teams stay big and outmuscle them inside and slow the game down, the Warriors look average at best or like Game 3- they look like a D-League squad.

Steph also doesn't respond well to increased defensive pressure. He looks absolutely lost at times out there against the Cavs D.


Was it Musgov who looked like Wilt last year?

Yup. And Adams this year, Thompson the other night. Not hard to do when GSW's center is all of 6'7" :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Steve Adams abuse of Green is one of the major reasons they had trouble with OKC. Traditional NBA line ups and positions. Teams need to stop trying to out small ball the Warriors.

Traditional physicality and a slowed down pace disrupts their rhythm. And Curry looks pedestrian at the slightest hint of physicality. No easy three balls and he's average at best.

[Smoke117]

Steve Adams abuse of Green is one of the major reasons they had trouble with OKC. Traditional NBA line ups and positions. Teams need to stop trying to out small ball the Warriors.

Traditional physicality and a slowed down pace disrupts their rhythm. And Curry looks pedestrian at the slightest hint of physicality. No easy three balls and he's average at best.

lol...I missed your biased stupidity.

[DonDadda59]

lol...I missed your biased stupidity.

The man's not telling any lies. Steph right now is only getting garbage time points against the Cavs who are throwing the type of defensive pressure at him that perimeter ATGs like Jordan and Kobe used to see on a nightly basis. Whereas those guys had a variety of ways of scoring- post ups, mid range, etc... Steph's game is HEAVILY reliant on getting looks from 3 (over half his shot attempts).

Take that away from him, he looks like what we've seen of him the past 2 Finals vs the Cavs- a man who can't get a single MVP vote... After being the league MVP.

[Akrazotile]

As far as defending the Warriors, I really dont see it as being about the frontcourt as much as the backcourt.

The Thunder were throwing Westbrook and Roberson at the Splash bros. That's a hell of a defensive tandem. When youre used to going up against the likes of James Harden, Austin Rivers, Damian Lillard etc in the playoffs, it's a little bit of an adjustment dont you think?

Last night Lebron James himself was hounding the hell out of Curry. That shit is no joke for a point guard. He's shut down the likes of MVP Rose and FMVP Parker in big games. It aint like goin up against CJ McCollum.

It speaks to what Barkley always says about jumpshooting. Defensive pressure ramps up in the postseason and it's a lot harder to make long jumpers. Last year the Warriors faced tons of injured teams and up til the Thunder series this year they faced crappy defensive backcourts.

The splash bros are just facing better defenses the past two series. Thats the main thing IMO. Who's playin the 4 and the 5 isnt so much the issue. It's the Splash brothers that are getting stymied. We'll see if the Cavs can keep it up. They need their role players to continue to step up offensively so Lebron has the energy to guard Curry/Klay for extended periods.

[Da_Realist]

I'm so glad someone else sees this. Small ball is nothing new. It was a gimmick to change thr pace in previous ers but wasn't used exclusively because it would get destroyed defensively and on the boards and generally run down by team with quality, skilled big men and post presence. The problem is that basketball has stopped developing big men to play like big men so small ball is king now. Even big men are shooting from outside the arc these days. Many true, traditional teams with a good post presence would work GSW. They are too small.

[tamaraw08]

As far as defending the Warriors, I really dont see it as being about the frontcourt as much as the backcourt.

The Thunder were throwing Westbrook and Roberson at the Splash bros. That's a hell of a defensive tandem. When youre used to going up against the likes of James Harden, Austin Rivers, Damian Lillard etc in the playoffs, it's a little bit of an adjustment dont you think?

Last night Lebron James himself was hounding the hell out of Curry. That shit is no joke for a point guard. He's shut down the likes of MVP Rose and FMVP Parker in big games. It aint like goin up against CJ McCollum.

It speaks to what Barkley always says about jumpshooting. Defensive pressure ramps up in the postseason and it's a lot harder to make long jumpers. Last year the Warriors faced tons of injured teams and up til the Thunder series this year they faced crappy defensive backcourts.

The splash bros are just facing better defenses the past two series. Thats the main thing IMO. Who's playin the 4 and the 5 isnt so much the issue. It's the Splash brothers that are getting stymied. We'll see if the Cavs can keep it up. They need their role players to continue to step up offensively so Lebron has the energy to guard Curry/Klay for extended periods.

Valid points, I wonder last year if GSW won bec of small ball and Iggy finding his shots or bec of the injuries of Cavs PLUS JR Smith and Deldadova shooting like 20% from the field in games 3,4 and 5?
Im just confused on why Steven Adams didn't make a lot of impact inside esp in game 6 and 7? I thought he would be the major difference but what happened?:confusedshrug:

[gigantes]

...Then this year, the same thing happened in the series with OKC. Instead of trying to go small for small, Billy Donovan stuck with a traditional lineup with Adams at center. This caused massive issues for the Warriors and they came dangerously close to losing in 6 games. I'd go so far as to say that outside of a few 4th quarters in the last 2 games when the Thunder's stars completely imploded, OKC looked to be the better team...
i wasn't paying much attention to that series. was it really a case of durant and westbrook imploding for no obvious reasons, or was it more about adjustments the warriors made?

and if so, what did they do that was so effective at shutting them down...?

[Akrazotile]

i wasn't paying much attention to that series. was it really a case of durant and westbrook imploding for no obvious reasons, or was it more about adjustments the warriors made?

and if so, what did they do that was so effective at shutting them down...?


They imploded.

Even in games 6 and 7 which they lost, they got out to big leads early in the game when it was fast paced, up-and-down. The Warriors hadnt come up with any answers for them. It was just that as the game went on and became a more deliberate, halfcourt oriented offense down the stretch Durant and Westbrook just bungled possessions left and right. Really just straight up choked, which has been their M.O. late in games all season. It really wasnt anything the Warriors did.

[Remix]

i wasn't paying much attention to that series. was it really a case of durant and westbrook imploding for no obvious reasons, or was it more about adjustments the warriors made?

and if so, what did they do that was so effective at shutting them down...?
10/50 from 3. they got too caught up in trying to play better than the warriors at their game rather than playing their own game.

[gigantes]

They imploded.

Even in games 6 and 7 which they lost, they got out to big leads early in the game when it was fast paced, up-and-down. The Warriors hadnt come up with any answers for them. It was just that as the game went on and became a more deliberate, halfcourt oriented offense down the stretch Durant and Westbrook just bungled possessions left and right. Really just straight up choked, which has been their M.O. late in games all season. It really wasnt anything the Warriors did.

10/50 from 3. they got too caught up in trying to play better than the warriors at their game rather than playing their own game.
interesting.

i wonder if some journalist or writer has shed some light on all that.

was it just nerves? was it trying to show up the warriors? was there a key disagreement between the players, or between the players and the coaches? is there something flawed about the thunders' overall mindset? something else...?

there's always reasons for things, even if they're obvious or even if they're hard to pin down. maybe we'll never know. maybe john stockton and karl malone have the answers.

[Da_Realist]

10/50 from 3. they got too caught up in trying to play better than the warriors at their game rather than playing their own game.

Those 30 point victories felt too good to them. They wanted to knock the champs out instead of slowly wearing them down with body shots.

[DonDadda59]

Loved how late in the game when Kerr went ultra small and had Barnes playing the 5, Lue was just like leave Christian Thompson in there and stay big. :kobe:

Cavs proceeded to molest the Dubs from that point on. I think opposing coaches are starting to catch on.