Love vs. Wiggins

[SpecialQue]

Who would you rather have on your team?

[Solefade]

everything is clearer in hindsight

[GoatBoy]

Wiggins skillset would fit in perfect on this Cavaliers team, or any other team for that matter... So Wiggins

[k0kakw0rld]

Love without question

[FireDavidKahn]

everything is clearer in hindsight
It was a dumb trade for Cleveland to begin with.

Love as a 3rd option is horrible.

No defense, no go-to moves, he barely provides anything as a 3rd option.

Playoffs > regular season

Love is so much less effective in the postseason.

If they had kept Wiggins they would have a franchise cornerstone that would be ready to carry the Cavs just when LBJ starts to decline.

[Tking714]

Wiggins can't shoot; but can Iso. Lebron needs another teammate that can get buckets on his own. Irving did that last game and they won. This team would do better with Wiggins because Frye and Love are redundant

[FireDavidKahn]

Wiggins can't shoot; but can Iso. Lebron needs another teammate that can get buckets on his own. Irving did that last game and they won. This team would do better with Wiggins because Frye and Love are redundant
Wiggins is ok at shooting. Barely average at this point but better than "can't shoot". He has an elite first step + finishing moves. Plus he is developing the clutch gene:D

[ALBballer]

I still can't believe the Cavs gave up so much in that trade. Minny had little leverage after GSW was out of the picture and Cavs could of waited it out for a better deal. But I do understand the appeal of adding a 26/12 player to your team and I thought he would fit well with Lebron by spacing the floor and rebounding.

Against GSW a player like Wiggins would be better defensively but offensively he wouldn't be able to do much since GSW would dare him to shoot.

I still think Love can be a good#2 option on a team that will run some plays with him to get some easy baskets and allow him to place closer to the rim on offense.

[soots]

The 26/12 guy before he joined team Cancer

[FireDavidKahn]

I still can't believe the Cavs gave up so much in that trade. Minny had little leverage after GSW was out of the picture and Cavs could of waited it out for a better deal. But I do understand the appeal of adding a 26/12 player to your team and I thought he would fit well with Lebron by spacing the floor and rebounding.

Against GSW a player like Wiggins would be better defensively but offensively he wouldn't be able to do much since GSW would dare him to shoot.

I still think Love can be a good#2 option on a team that will run some plays with him to get some easy baskets and allow him to place closer to the rim on offense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFP5F-54Cw

[Tking714]

Wiggins is ok at shooting. Barely average at this point but better than "can't shoot". He has an elite first step + finishing moves. Plus he is developing the clutch gene:D

lol yea I get you. But everyone in the NBA is so good that 30% 3pt shooting makes you a "bad" shooter. Lebron can't afford dishing out to a 30% shooter when he has a 40% option in Love/Frye who can drag opposing forwards out too.

But no question I think Wiggins is an upgrade over anyone else on the Cavs cept lebron. Dude will be good at everything within the next couple years and he has that it factor.

[Jameerthefear]

people forget that wiggins is a bad defender right now

[FireDavidKahn]

people forget that wiggins is a bad defender right now
Better than Love.

Besides, with LeTutelage's mind Wiggins' defense would be a lot better than it is now. LeTeacher is great.

[coin24]

Most of us with a brain knew that was a horrible trade at the time.. Hilarious though:lol eat shit

[Akrazotile]

I was against it at the time and altho I havent seen much of Wiggins and it doesnt sound like hes been all that great so far, I still think it was a bad decision overall. I dont think Wiggins would be a great fit on the Cavs right now but they could have used him to make a better trade IMO.

[plowking]

I'm glad Wiggins got traded. He would have been hindered in terms of his development and made to play a role on Cleveland.
The fact that he has a little more free reign on a growing team will allow him to become the great player he is destined to be.

You simply don't trade someone as good as Wiggins for someone like Love. But I'm glad they did.

[Akrazotile]

I'm glad Wiggins got traded. He would have been hindered in terms of his development and made to play a role on Cleveland.
The fact that he has a little more free reign on a growing team will allow him to become the great player he is destined to be.

You simply don't trade someone as good as Wiggins for someone like Love. But I'm glad they did.



What is Wiggins destined to be great at as a basketball player?

[plowking]

What is Wiggins destined to be great at as a basketball player?

Physical gifts and just great natural basketball coordination. Go look at his mixtapes when he was 13. Looks like someone who was playing for 20 years.

[r0drig0lac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFP5F-54Cw
future superstar..no doubt

[r15mohd]

The Cavs built the team to face off against the Spurs and needed to play a bit bigger - they didn't see the Warriors and the more small ball oriented lineups coming in and taking over. So that's where Love's role was and intended for - it certainly wasn't a bad move, he's played pretty OK outside of this series where the matchup just doesn't benefit him

Having Wiggin's would be good for this series and really this series only - maybe against the Thunder but even then, having Love to pull Ibaka out of the paint would be essential.

[JtotheIzzo]

Wiggins can fill it up as the primary option (ie seeing the best defender).

Wiggins can hit 3s at an acceptable clip
Wiggins can post up
Wiggins can score off dribble
Wiggins has nice midrange game
Wiggins has the clutch gene

People are shitting on Wiggins' defense, but wait till this year with Thibs, so much of defense is team related, it will really take off this year and he will be transitioning to stopper.

Wiggins needs to do more in terms of usage, I think on a better team his rebounding would be higher and maybe assists too.

If he were on the Cavs, he'd see a lot more open threes, and a lot more clear paths to the basket. His ppg would be down a bit but his shooting pcts would be WAY up.

Dumb move for Cleveland, they traded an athlete and a winner for a non-athlete and non-winner.

And how many times has trading a black guy for a white guy worked out? (yes, racist)

[Vancouver-Grizz]

a starting line up with Wiggins, JR Smith, Irving and TT would create the worst ball movement team you can think of.

none of these guys can work off the ball. All of them would probably just stand there and watch LeBron go to work.

[Mawly-G]

a starting line up with Wiggins, JR Smith, Irving and TT would create the worst ball movement team you can think of.

none of these guys can work off the ball. All of them would probably just stand there and watch LeBron go to work.
Not true about JR. Dude is really effective at coming off of screens and spotting up for catch and shoot opportunities. He absolutely does not need to ball to be effective.

[DukeDelonte13]

Do people really think a sophomore who shoots .30% from the 3point line, who can't defend, who can't pass, who can't rebound, is really going to help the cavs more than a stretch 4 of Kevin Love's caliber?

Are we living in a fantasy world here?


Just because Wiggins could be better in the FUTURE doesn't mean he's better NOW.

Cavs could not afford to wait for wiggins to develop. They are in win now mode. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times. It was a rare trade that happened to be a win win for both teams.

Wiggins would be asked to be a spot up shooter and a defender on this cavs team. He is not that type of player right now.

[DukeDelonte13]

Some more food for thought...

had the trade not happened Wiggins would be putting up negligible stats on the cavs while K-Love being the primary option would be putting up his crazy numbers again.

the whole NBA universe would be saying DERRR HOW DUMB ARE THE CAVS FOR NOT PULLING THE TRIGGER THEY NEED TO WIN NOW

[HurricaneKid]

Better than Love.


KLove's DRAPM was 2.54 this season

Wiggins was -2.04

Its not a perfect stat by any imagination but if people think Wiggins would be helping this team this year they are delirious. The only thing he can do is slash with the ball and he scores at a less efficient rate then Bron, Ky, and KLove so he would be completely redundant (much like KLove, only worse).

[FireDavidKahn]

Do people really think a sophomore who shoots .30% from the 3point line, who can't defend, who can't pass, who can't rebound, is really going to help the cavs more than a stretch 4 of Kevin Love's caliber?

Are we living in a fantasy world here?


Just because Wiggins could be better in the FUTURE doesn't mean he's better NOW.

Cavs could not afford to wait for wiggins to develop. They are in win now mode. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times. It was a rare trade that happened to be a win win for both teams.

Wiggins would be asked to be a spot up shooter and a defender on this cavs team. He is not that type of player right now. No it wasn't. If you guys never win the Finals then you guys got slayed. Like I've been saying all along, Cavs would have made the Finals regardless of Love.

[FireDavidKahn]

KLove's DRAPM was 2.54 this season

Wiggins was -2.04

Its not a perfect stat by any imagination but if people think Wiggins would be helping this team this year they are delirious. The only thing he can do is slash with the ball and he scores at a less efficient rate then Bron, Ky, and KLove so he would be completely redundant (much like KLove, only worse).
Carlos Boozer also had one of the best DRTG's in the league when he was on the Bulls...

[DukeDelonte13]

No it wasn't. If you guys never win the Finals then you guys got slayed. Like I've been saying all along, Cavs would have made the Finals regardless of Love.


Cavs would have made the finals regardless of wiggins. He would have a minimal impact on this team. he doesn't do the things well that the cavs would need out of him.

[Fire Colangelo]

As a player right now? Love absolutely.

For a better fit on the Cavs though? Wiggins.

Look at what 35 year old Richard Jefferson was accomplish starting on this team..... now imagine an Andrew Wiggins lol.

[GimmeThat]

this is the second season since the trade of 2 players who don't even play the same position

What's the appeal to Lebron for playing the SF position? his ability to score while playing perimeter defense.


Kendrick Perkins is a name that doesn't get mentioned anymore

[HurricaneKid]

Carlos Boozer also had one of the best DRTG's in the league when he was on the Bulls...

DRTG is just the points/possession allowed when you are on the floor. So if you are on the floor with 4 great defenders you win.

RAPM ACCOUNTS for everyone you are on the floor with.

Nice try though.

[Goldrush25]

Love is overpaid, not worth what he brings to Cleveland.

Wiggins is not a better player than Love but he fits better. He makes everyone's role more clearly defined. He would make the game easier and more simple. Lebron wouldn't have to worry about getting Wiggins going. Love has been an awkward fit from the very beginning.

[Euroleague]

I would rather have Wiggins

Love is soft as hell, plays no defense, and can only hit those 3 pointers when no one defends him. He's also mentally weak.

With that being said, Wiggins is also overrated. He has a low basketball IQ, his decision making is poor, he's not very skilled offensively, he sucks in the half court offense, and he has no outside shot.

[Euroleague]

Do people really think a sophomore who shoots .30% from the 3point line, who can't defend, who can't pass, who can't rebound, is really going to help the cavs more than a stretch 4 of Kevin Love's caliber?

Are we living in a fantasy world here?


Just because Wiggins could be better in the FUTURE doesn't mean he's better NOW.

Cavs could not afford to wait for wiggins to develop. They are in win now mode. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times. It was a rare trade that happened to be a win win for both teams.

Wiggins would be asked to be a spot up shooter and a defender on this cavs team. He is not that type of player right now.

I'd rather have Wiggins just because Love is uber uber soft, both mentally and physically.

But yeah, what you are saying about Wiggins is true. From some of the comments being made in this thread, he officially is the new most overrated basketball player on planet earth.

[T_L_P]

On the Cavs? Love without question.

He was clearly a top ten player in 2014 (really top 5) and provided a more immediate impact for a win-now team with LeBron returning home.. Wiggins isn't even the best player on his 29 win team.

[CeltsGarlic]

Kevin Love

[FireDavidKahn]

Cavs would have made the finals regardless of wiggins. He would have a minimal impact on this team. he doesn't do the things well that the cavs would need out of him.
That's the point. Cavs make the Finals NOW regardless of Love or Wiggins. Then a few years down the road from now when LBJ starts to noticibly decline, Wiggins give them a cornerstone piece to keep up the Cavs dominance once.

[HurricaneKid]

That's the point. Cavs make the Finals NOW regardless of Love or Wiggins. Then a few years down the road from now when LBJ starts to noticibly decline, Wiggins give them a cornerstone piece to keep up the Cavs dominance once.

Without LeBron this team is garbage. Trying to push the team over the edge to win a title is far more important than going from a 7 seed to a 4 seed 5 years from now. Which is what all the reasonable folks here are trying to get through.

And Wiggins is no cornerstone. Not for a championship caliber team anyways.

[DMAVS41]

Without LeBron this team is garbage. Trying to push the team over the edge to win a title is far more important than going from a 7 seed to a 4 seed 5 years from now. Which is what all the reasonable folks here are trying to get through.

And Wiggins is no cornerstone. Not for a championship caliber team anyways.

Yep.

The future means nothing...Love/Kyrie or Kyrie/Wiggins with a declining Lebron aren't winning shit anyway.

And to the thread...Love was clearly better last year, this year, and will be for at least next year as well. Wiggins isn't moving the needle at all on this Cavs team right now.

[FireDavidKahn]

Without LeBron this team is garbage. Trying to push the team over the edge to win a title is far more important than going from a 7 seed to a 4 seed 5 years from now. Which is what all the reasonable folks here are trying to get through.

And Wiggins is no cornerstone. Not for a championship caliber team anyways.
Love ain't pushing any team over the edge. That much should have been obvious.

And Wiggins definitely has a chance to be a cornerstone. He just got done with a 21 PPG season at the ripe old age of 20. Him and Towns are going to terrorize the league in a few years.

[FireDavidKahn]

Yep.

The future means nothing...Love/Kyrie or Kyrie/Wiggins with a declining Lebron aren't winning shit anyway.

And to the thread...Love was clearly better last year, this year, and will be for at least next year as well. Wiggins isn't moving the needle at all on this Cavs team right now.
neither is Love...Which is locked into a 5 year 115 million deal.

[DMAVS41]

Love ain't pushing any team over the edge. That much should have been obvious.

And Wiggins definitely has a chance to be a cornerstone. He just got done with a 21 PPG season at the ripe old age of 20. Him and Towns are going to terrorize the league in a few years.

It will be mainly Towns...and nobody on the Cavs comes close to the potential of Towns anyway....to that point really doesn't hold.

You actually think Kyrie/Wiggins is anything of note over Kyrie/Love going forward? It's not...

And again...winning now is far more likely/important...and Love gives them a much better chance at that.

[DMAVS41]

neither is Love...Which is locked into a 5 year 115 million deal.

But he is. You can't talk about the one series in which his value isn't there like it normally is as the end all about a player.

Love has been very good for the Cavs when he's been on the court.

Also, that contract is just good. It's actually an awesome contract...both for the Cavs to keep or trade.

Teams will be lining up to take Love at 4 years 92 million or whatever it is. LOL at you thinking that is a negative...it will be one of the best contracts in the league after this summer sees absurd deals given the increase.

[HurricaneKid]

Love ain't pushing any team over the edge. That much should have been obvious.

And Wiggins definitely has a chance to be a cornerstone. He just got done with a 21 PPG season at the ripe old age of 20. Him and Towns are going to terrorize the league in a few years.

And the team became instantly better by taking the ball out of his hands and putting it back in Rubio/KATs capable hands.

He might be a player in 3-5 years but he isn't right now. He is a slasher with poor court awareness who has NO outside shot (3pt% actually DROPPED from his rookie year of 31%) And for the Cavs, they need all their assets to be contributing now. Its the quandary the Knicks are in with Melo/Zinger and why the Cavs made the deal in the first place.

The Love hate has gotten a little over the top after a single game. He was DEFINITIVELY the Cavs second best player this year. The second best player on an NBA Finals team > Second best player on a 29 win team.

[FireDavidKahn]

LOL

I guarantee you in 3 years Wiggins will be better than Love.:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Not true DMAVS, Wiggins would be alot more helpful than Love right now :confusedshrug: and going forward he will be 10x better.

[FireDavidKahn]

And the team became instantly better by taking the ball out of his hands and putting it back in Rubio/KATs capable hands.

He might be a player in 3-5 years but he isn't right now. He is a slasher with poor court awareness who has NO outside shot (3pt% actually DROPPED from his rookie year of 31%) And for the Cavs, they need all their assets to be contributing now. Its the quandary the Knicks are in with Melo/Zinger and why the Cavs made the deal in the first place.

The Love hate has gotten a little over the top after a single game. He was DEFINITIVELY the Cavs second best player this year. The second best player on an NBA Finals team > Second best player on a 29 win team.
His shooting stats for every other area on the court improved, substantially. and his 3P% dropped a whopping 1%:oldlol:

[Smoke117]

Not true DMAVS, Wiggins would be alot more helpful than Love right now :confusedshrug: and going forward he will be 10x better.

He's not going to be 10 times better...average ball handler, shitty defender, shitty playmaker...he's just going to be a Rudy Gay who shoots more.

[FireDavidKahn]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wiggian01.html

Wiggins shooting stats

AT RIM
Rookie: 66.5%
This year: 64.8%

3'-10'
Rookie: 34.7%
This year: 45.6%

10'-16'
Rookie: 38%
This year: 38.6%

16' <3 Pointer
Rookie: 30.5%
This year: 34.7%

3 Pointer
Rookie: 31%
This year: 30%


So ya, he improved a **** ton.

[FireDavidKahn]

Meanwhile Love is a 16 PPG 10 RPG shooting 41.9% overall and 36% from 3. Sure sounds worth 115 million to me.:oldlol:

But hey, this is the same team that gave TT that ridiculous contract:roll:

36% 3 point shooter for a guy whose only role is shooting the 3:roll: :roll: :roll:

[NumberSix]

Love would be a significantly better player if he wasn't 3rd option.

[ArbitraryWater]

Love would be a significantly better player if he wasn't 3rd option.

are you serious? The more you ask of Love on a title team, the more significantly he'd FALL OFF A CLIFF.... yeah, sure, he might put up numbers as first option on 35 win teams... great, that doesnt make him better, though.

[DMAVS41]

Not true DMAVS, Wiggins would be alot more helpful than Love right now :confusedshrug: and going forward he will be 10x better.

Right now?

What would he do on this team? He can't shoot at all from range...and he's not a good or smart defender yet.

He literally brings nothing to the table on this team in his current form...

10x better? LOL...:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

are you serious? The more you ask of Love on a title team, the more significantly he'd FALL OFF A CLIFF.... yeah, sure, he might put up numbers as first option on 35 win teams... great, that doesnt make him better, though.

So you think asking more of a guy on a 29 win team that doesn't have an evolved game on either end is better?

You are hating on Love for winning 35 games...when Wiggins is the 2nd best player on a 29 win team. You make Love the 2nd best player on a team and that team is winning 50 games if healthy. Holy shit man...I don't even really like Love all that much, but this is just stupid.

:roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

Right now?

What would he do on this team? He can't shoot at all from range...and he's not a good or smart defender yet.

He literally brings nothing to the table on this team in his current form...

10x better? LOL...:facepalm
....He said going FORWARD

[DMAVS41]

....He said going FORWARD

He said right now....are you high?

[DMAVS41]

Not true DMAVS, Wiggins would be alot more helpful than Love right now :confusedshrug: and going forward he will be 10x better.

:confusedshrug:

[FireDavidKahn]

So you think asking more of a guy on a 29 win team that doesn't have an evolved game on either end is better?

You are hating on Love for winning 35 games...when Wiggins is the 2nd best player on a 29 win team. You make Love the 2nd best player on a team and that team is winning 50 games if healthy. Holy shit man...I don't even really like Love all that much, but this is just stupid.

:roll:
29 wins with an incredibly bad head coach.

1) Love had a much better supporting cast
2) It took love 6 years, and the very start of his prime, to get to 40 wins:oldlol:
3) Love had a HOF coach

[DMAVS41]

Meanwhile Love is a 16 PPG 10 RPG shooting 41.9% overall and 36% from 3. Sure sounds worth 115 million to me.:oldlol:

But hey, this is the same team that gave TT that ridiculous contract:roll:

36% 3 point shooter for a guy whose only role is shooting the 3:roll: :roll: :roll:

You realize the contract is meaningless for the Cavs...right? It was either keep him or lose him for nothing. Even if you don't want him...you sign him and then trade him.

Also, that contract is just a good contract. You show your ignorance when you call that contract bad.

Lastly, when you are the 3rd option....your numbers are going to decrease. What do you expect his numbers to be with Lebron and Kyrie out there? You expect him to average 25/14 like he's the first option?

Please use your brain...please.

[FireDavidKahn]

:confusedshrug:

Not true DMAVS, Wiggins would be alot more helpful than Love right now :confusedshrug: and going forward he will be 10x better.
Helpful doesn't mean better player

reading comp 101.

[DMAVS41]

29 wins with an incredibly bad head coach.

1) Love had a much better supporting cast
2) It took love 6 years, and the very start of his prime, to get to 40 wins:oldlol:
3) Love had a HOF coach

Much better? Nah...Love never had someone as good as Towns.

I'll ask again...what is Wiggins adding to this Cavs team?

He can't defend well individually or within a team concept yet...and he's a garbage range shooter.

Please tell me what qualities he's bringing to the table.

[FireDavidKahn]

You realize the contract is meaningless for the Cavs...right? It was either keep him or lose him for nothing. Even if you don't want him...you sign him and then trade him.

Also, that contract is just a good contract. You show your ignorance when you call that contract bad.

Lastly, when you are the 3rd option....your numbers are going to decrease. What do you expect his numbers to be with Lebron and Kyrie out there? You expect him to average 25/14 like he's the first option?

Please use your brain...please.
No, but his effeciency should INCREASE A LOT being a 3rd option. Too bad it has decreased a lot:lol

The Cavs have the highest payroll in history and still wont be winning a ring.:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Helpful doesn't mean better player

reading comp 101.

hahahaahahahah.

please tell me what he's doing. I've been asking for a full page now.

please tell me what wiggins is doing for this team.

[FireDavidKahn]

Much better? Nah...Love never had someone as good as Towns.

I'll ask again...what is Wiggins adding to this Cavs team?

He can't defend well individually or within a team concept yet...and he's a garbage range shooter.

Please tell me what qualities he's bringing to the table.
I said supporting cast, not player....

[FireDavidKahn]

hahahaahahahah.

please tell me what he's doing. I've been asking for a full page now.

please tell me what wiggins is doing for this team.
Better defense
Higher % shots
Drawing more fouls

[DMAVS41]

Lets try this again. Please don't try to win an argument arguing silly semantics and making shit up.

What the **** is Wiggins doing on this team currently to make it better?

Please ****ing answer.

[DMAVS41]

Better defense
Higher % shots
Drawing more fouls

Wiggins doesn't play good defense. When did he just start getting credit for something he doesn't do?

He's less efficient as a player.

He's not getting the ball often enough (why would he) to draw a lot of fouls. He'd be a spot up shooter on offense...and he'd suck at it.

Try again.

[FireDavidKahn]

Wiggins doesn't play good defense.

He's less efficient as a player.

He's not getting the ball often enough (why would he) to draw a lot of fouls.

Try again.
-He plays better defense than Love
-Wiggins' is 54.3%, Love's is 55.3%
-Wiggins as a Free Throw rate, number of FA per FGA, of 43.7%, Love's is 32.1% ......So yes for every FA Wiggins or Love takes, Wiggins will be drawing A LOT more fouls.

[kamil]

I'll take whoever LeBron* recruited.

[DMAVS41]

-He plays better defense than Love
-Wiggins' is 54.3%, Love's is 55.3%
-Wiggins as a Free Throw rate, number of FA per FGA, of 43.7%, Love's is 32.1% ......So yes for every FA Wiggins or Love takes, Wiggins will be drawing A LOT more fouls.

Do you really not understand the change in role Wiggins would have on this Cavs team?

He'd be a spot up shooter. He's nowhere near good enough to have action run through him in the playoffs in the East...let alone in the finals. He's not seeing enough of the ball for his ability to draw fouls to come into play. Love's free throw rate was higher when he was on the Wolves than Wiggins is now. Again...are you really this stupid that you can't grasp what a change in role would do?

Love is a far more skilled and evolved offensive player that actually scares a defense from range. Wiggins literally would not be guarded outside the paint and it would kill the Cavs offense.

His defense is not good. I'm not even sure it's better than Love's overall...it would probably be better against the Warriors, but on average it's really not better. Perception is actually not reality...and we have to stop giving players credit for being good at something just because they look like they should be good at it.

[HurricaneKid]

Meanwhile Love is a 16 PPG 10 RPG shooting 41.9% overall and 36% from 3. Sure sounds worth 115 million to me.:oldlol:

But hey, this is the same team that gave TT that ridiculous contract:roll:

36% 3 point shooter for a guy whose only role is shooting the 3:roll: :roll: :roll:

Klove's postseason TS% (that you are saying is awful) is higher than any season Wiggins has had.

KLove's RAPM this season was 5.74. Wiggins' was -1.42. 80% of the NBA is between those two.

I'm curious if you can find ANY advanced stat that Wiggins outperformed Love in. Because nothing I look at indicates he is in the same league currently.

[FireDavidKahn]

Do you really not understand the change in role Wiggins would have on this Cavs team?

He'd be a spot up shooter. He's nowhere near good enough to have action run through him in the playoffs in the East...let alone in the finals. He's not seeing enough of the ball for his ability to draw fouls to come into play. Love's free throw rate was higher when he was on the Wolves than Wiggins is now. Again...are you really this stupid that you can't grasp what a change in role would do?

Love is a far more skilled and evolved offensive player that actually scares a defense from range. Wiggins literally would not be guarded outside the paint and it would kill the Cavs offense.

His defense is not good. I'm not even sure it's better than Love's overall...it would probably be better against the Warriors, but on average it's really not better. Perception is actually not reality...and we have to stop giving players credit for being good at something just because they look like they should be good at it.
You are bold to make that claim.:sleeping

Remember what type of wing LeBron played with down in Miami? A slasher....Wiggins would be playing that role and Wiggins happens to be elite at it right now.

[DMAVS41]

You are bold to make that claim.:sleeping

Remember what type of wing LeBron played with down in Miami? A slasher....Wiggins would be playing that role and Wiggins happens to be elite at it right now.

Comparing Wiggins to Wade is the bold claim mate...considering he's maybe 10% as good on his best days.

And Wade was capable of actually doing things with the ball in his hands..like setting other guys up and having an offense run through him....Wade actually played elite defense as well.

All things Wiggins can't do.

So...I'm still failing to see how a guy that can't shoot or defend...and is a poor rebounder and a poor passer...is going to be a huge benefit to a title contending team that badly needs a lot of the above.

Just take the L

[FireDavidKahn]

Comparing Wiggins to Wade is the bold claim mate...considering he's maybe 10% as good on his best days.

And Wade was capable of actually doing things with the ball in his hands..like setting other guys up and having an offense run through him....Wade actually played elite defense as well.

All things Wiggins can't do.

So...I'm still failing to see how a guy that can't shoot or defend...and is a poor rebounder and a poor passer...is going to be a huge benefit to a title contending team that badly needs a lot of the above.

Just take the L
I said he would be in Wade's role, not that he would be Wade...
1) He is a better defender than Love
2) He would draw a lot of fouls
3) Wiggins' slashing ability is a lot better than Loves jumper.

[CuterThanRubio]

Wiggins has go-to moves and is the biggest threat on the floor cutting off ball, he can posterize anyone in the league, I think he would be a great compliment to LeBron's style.

Kevin Love is garbage, how are people still defending him?

[DMAVS41]

I said he would be in Wade's role, not that he would be Wade...
1) He is a better defender than Love
2) He would draw a lot of fouls
3) Wiggins' slashing ability is a lot better than Loves jumper.

1) Debatable...I really don't think you are grasping just how not good defensively Wiggins has been so far. If there is a gap...it really might favor Love overall. I will say that against the Warriors...Wiggins would be more valuable defensively, but it is hardly a huge gap if Love is used correctly like I think he's about to be.

2) False. When Love played in Minny...he had a higher free throw rate than Wiggins. Wiggins role would be dramatically changed/reduced playing on this Cavs team and would not be seeing the ball much at all. And his terrible range shooting would kill the Cavs in many ways.

3. False. Wiggins slashing isn't really going to have a lot of room to begin with because the court would be shrunk down. Wiggins would be out there with at least one big and Lebron at pf. So already there are two guys on the court that don't/can't shoot. That court would shrink and the Lebron/Kyrie/Thompson pick and rolls wouldn't have much space at all...

Kyrie/JR/Wiggins/Lebron/Thompson simply is only a good lineup because of all the other players. Wiggins adds almost nothing to it to be honest...you'd much rather have a guy that could hit some 3's out there than any of your supposed attributes you claim Wiggins has...even though he doesn't really have most of what you claim.

[FireDavidKahn]

Kevin Love let opponents shoot 3.6% better than their average.
Wiggins let opponents shoot 0.6% better than their average.

:applause:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?CF=GP*GE*60&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1

[DMAVS41]

Kevin Love let opponents shoot 3.6% better than their average.
Wiggins let opponents shoot 0.6% better than their average.

:applause:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?CF=GP*GE*60&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1

If you want to go by stats...Love will trounce Wiggins;

Here;

DRPM

Love 2.54

(hold on...have to go to the 2nd page to find Wiggins because he's so far down)

Wiggins -2.04

There is more to defense than playing on ball...a lot more. And even in that Wiggins is hardly anything of note.

This trend will be there in pretty much every measure we have for defense. DBPM /DRAPM...etc.

Wiggins is not a good defender...stop it.

Everything you are saying would make sense if the player in question was somebody like Jae Crowder...and even with Jae Crowder I'm not sure this Cavs team is better, but at least he actually makes perfect sense and does all the things this Cavs team needs.

[FireDavidKahn]

If you want to go by stats...Love will trounce Wiggins;

Here;

DRPM

Love 2.54

(hold on...have to go to the 2nd page to find Wiggins because he's so far down)

Wiggins -2.04

There is more to defense than playing on ball...a lot more. And even in that Wiggins is hardly anything of note.
That isn't on ball...it is in every area, ie an AVERAGE.

[CuterThanRubio]

Enough with the stats

Wiggins is better than Love right now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFP5F-54Cw

^ Dropped 32 on GSW and made some good passes, hit the go ahead shot and grabbed a couple clutch rebounds to seal the game

Wiggins has better post moves than Love, that is such a joke!

[DMAVS41]

That isn't on ball...it is in every area, ie an AVERAGE.

So it's not even tracking plays in which they were the primary defender?

Hahahah....means nothing to me then.

Like I said...every measure we have for overall defense is going to favor Love. That doesn't mean Love is a much better defender, but I'm hoping this shows you how just not good Wiggins is on defense at this point.

He is not a good defender. He's actually kind of weak overall...

[feyki]

See Wiggins next year . He will be one of the best perimeter defender in the league .

[FireDavidKahn]

When Love's opponent is within 5 feet, they shoot 73.3%!
"" 5 to 9 feet, they shoot 42.9%

When Wiggins' opponenment is within 5 feet, they shoot 67.4%!
"" 5 to 9 feet, they shoot 26.3%

Wiggins wins AGAIN:bowdown:

[ImKobe]

If you want to go by stats...Love will trounce Wiggins;

Here;

DRPM

Love 2.54

(hold on...have to go to the 2nd page to find Wiggins because he's so far down)

Wiggins -2.04

There is more to defense than playing on ball...a lot more. And even in that Wiggins is hardly anything of note.

This trend will be there in pretty much every measure we have for defense. DBPM /DRAPM...etc.

Wiggins is not a good defender...stop it.

Love plays on a great team that has great defenders all around him, Wiggins plays on a young, inexperienced team that lost their Head Coach prior to the season, anyone using those numbers to compare players' defensive abilities is stupid. Kevin Love is a proven liability on the defensive end, Wiggins has room to grow and will get better as he enters his prime in a few years, Love hit his peak already.

[FireDavidKahn]

So it's not even tracking plays in which they were the primary defender?

Hahahah....means nothing to me then.

Like I said...every measure we have for overall defense is going to favor Love. That doesn't mean Love is a much better defender, but I'm hoping this shows you how just not good Wiggins is on defense at this point.

He is not a good defender. He's actually kind of weak overall...
Not what I meant. I meant it isn't just ISO plays, they also factor in Zones, Assignments, etc.

[DMAVS41]

Love plays on a great team that has great defenders all around him, Wiggins plays on a young, inexperienced team that lost their Head Coach prior to the season, anyone using those numbers to compare players' defensive abilities is stupid. Kevin Love is a proven liability on the defensive end, Wiggins has room to grow and will get better as he enters his prime in a few years, Love hit his peak already.

Great defenders all around him? What?

Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the league.

JR is nothing of note defensively.

Jefferson? Mo Williams? Injured Shump?

Lebron/TT/Delly...all good defenders...I'm not sure I'd call any of them great this year to be honest though.


In a few years? Sure, but this argument is about right now...not a few years...so that point means nothing.

[DMAVS41]

Not what I meant. I meant it isn't just ISO plays, they also factor in Zones, Assignments, etc.

And the other stats factor in everything...and account for opponent and players on the floor...etc.

And Love comes out ahead, clearly, in all of them.

So....

[DMAVS41]

See Wiggins next year . He will one of the best perimeter defender in the league .

As this is about right now...this means nothing for this conversation.

[FireDavidKahn]

Great defenders all around him? What?

Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the league.

JR is nothing of note defensively.

Jefferson? Mo Williams? Injured Shump?

Lebron/TT/Delly...all good defenders...I'm not sure I'd call any of them great this year to be honest though.


In a few years? Sure, but this argument is about right now...not a few years...so that point means nothing.
:roll:

Cleveland was the 10th ranked defense in the league despite having Love and Kyrie.

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

Cleveland was the 10th ranked defense in the league despite having Love and Kyrie.

Well, Love isn't nearly as bad on defense as you are claiming.

Minny with 28th ranked defense with Wiggins!!!!!!

I can play this game all day moron...

[FireDavidKahn]

And the other stats factor in everything...and account for opponent and players on the floor...etc.

And Love comes out ahead, clearly, in all of them.

So....
Because I am just talking about FG%...Which is weighed equally across teams irrespective of their peers. As good as DRPM is, it still is influenced by the peers around you.

DRPM also says that Dieng, ranks 20th among C's, is WAY better than Towns, ranks 66th, defensively?

:roll: Remember this is just the Center rankings.:roll: KAT was one of the better defensive bigs in the league this year.

[ImKobe]

Great defenders all around him? What?

Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the league.

JR is nothing of note defensively.

Jefferson? Mo Williams? Injured Shump?

Lebron/TT/Delly...all good defenders...I'm not sure I'd call any of them great this year to be honest though.


In a few years? Sure, but this argument is about right now...not a few years...so that point means nothing.

JR beat Shumpert out of the starting line-up because of his defense, there was a big story on how JR changed his game last off-season to focuse more on playing defense and letting defense dictate his game, he's been pretty good against the Warriors on the defensive end as Klay has looked completely shut down for the 2nd straight year going up against him, averaging 12 points on 37% shooting with 30% from 3 when he averaged 26 ppg on 45% shooting with 45% from 3 in the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs.

TT/Lebron/Delly have been great defensively. They were great in the Playoffs last year as well.

The overall argument is that the Wiggins for Love trade was a terrible move by the Cavs, which it was. Kevin Love doesn't have an impact on the Cavs' success. They look better without him for the 2nd straight season. And it's not because he's a bad offensive player. The problem is that the Cavs play worse defensively with Love on the floor, Richard Jefferson is a better fit and he's 35 years old :kobe:, and looks more active on defense than Love ever has.

Wiggins would have been a better option for this Cavs team as he could have been molded into a good/great defensive player plus he would also be their best player in transition after Lebron. Wiggins will continue to improve and his value will continue to go up while Love's is at an all-time low. Wiggins is already averaging 21 ppg on 46% shooting at age 20, surely the Cavs could have been better with him on the floor instead of Love.

[DMAVS41]

JR beat Shumpert out of the starting line-up because of his defense, there was a big story on how JR changed his game last off-season to focuse more on playing defense and letting defense dictate his game, he's been pretty good against the Warriors on the defensive end as Klay has looked completely shut down for the 2nd straight year going up against him, averaging 12 points on 37% shooting with 30% from 3 when he averaged 26 ppg on 45% shooting with 45% from 3 in the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs.

TT/Lebron/Delly have been great defensively. They were great in the Playoffs last year as well.

Referencing the playoffs last year is pretty weak. The Cavs defense overall this year, at least in the regular season, was improved from last year, but still not great.

We all know Kyrie is terrible.

Here is the thing about the JR stuff...you could say all he same things about Love. He's definitely improved as a defender on this team and within this team.

Why give him no credit? Why act like the guy playing the 2nd most minutes on a team that improved defensively didn't help?

You have all just bought into the perception that Love is a terrible defender...and it's simply not true.

What is true...is that this Warriors matchup for him is a nightmare and he needs his role altered. I've written about this many times and have been saying he needs to come off the bench and play 16 to 20 minutes a game.

But one match up does not inform the worth of a player overall or on a specific end of the court.

And with all that said...there have been no signs out of Wiggins that he's a capable enough defender to warrant thinking his value would be higher than Love's on this Cavs team overall given his inept shooting, playmaking, and rebounding offensively.

[DMAVS41]

Because I am just talking about FG%...Which is weighed equally across teams irrespective of their peers. As good as DRPM is, it still is influenced by the peers around you.

DRPM also says that Dieng, ranks 20th among C's, is WAY better than Towns, ranks 66th, defensively?

:roll: Remember this is just the Center rankings.:roll: KAT was one of the better defensive bigs in the league this year.

It's all influenced by peers around you...even your numbers....you are never on the court alone.

Which is why you can't make a lot of specific claims about things with numbers...especially on defense.

However, we can make some broad conclusions. And one, if we are being objective, is that there is nothing to the case that Wiggins is anything of note defensively right now.

Does he have potential? Yep. Will he get better? Yep.

But that isn't the argument you are making. You are saying right now he's a noteworthy defender...which is simply not true when looking at things objectively.

In the 20 or so Wolves games I watched this year...almost never did I see Wiggins and say to myself "damn...great defense"...so there is that as well.

So if I watch him and I'm not impressed...and then I check all the meaningful metrics and they are in line with my take on him. I'm pretty stuck until something changes....and I should be.

The dude can't shoot, create for others, or rebound...and he's at best an average defender.

I'm sorry, but that is not moving the needle for this Cavs team over a developed player like Love who has real skills that change how a defense can play you.

[FireDavidKahn]

My, my, my Wiggins just keeps getting more areas that favor him!

Wiggins ON/OFF:
DRTG: -2.3 :applause:

Love ON/OFF:
DRTG: +1.9

So Wiggins influences his team in a more positive way while Love does the exact opposite, the teams defense is worse with him on the court.

GO WIGGINS

[FireDavidKahn]

It's all influenced by peers around you...even your numbers....you are never on the court alone.

Which is why you can't make a lot of specific claims about things with numbers...especially on defense.

However, we can make some broad conclusions. And one, if we are being objective, is that there is nothing to the case that Wiggins is anything of note defensively right now.

Does he have potential? Yep. Will he get better? Yep.

But that isn't the argument you are making. You are saying right now he's a noteworthy defender...which is simply not true when looking at things objectively.

In the 20 or so Wolves games I watched this year...almost never did I see Wiggins and say to myself "damn...great defense"...so there is that as well.

So if I watch him and I'm not impressed...and then I check all the meaningful metrics and they are in line with my take on him. I'm pretty stuck until something changes....and I should be.

The dude can't shoot, create for others, or rebound...and he's at best an average defender.

I'm sorry, but that is not moving the needle for this Cavs team over a developed player like Love who has real skills that change how a defense can play you.I have never once said that. I said he is better than Love..Being better than Love at defense isn't something of note..it's a forgone conclusion for 90% of the league.

[DMAVS41]

JR beat Shumpert out of the starting line-up because of his defense, there was a big story on how JR changed his game last off-season to focuse more on playing defense and letting defense dictate his game, he's been pretty good against the Warriors on the defensive end as Klay has looked completely shut down for the 2nd straight year going up against him, averaging 12 points on 37% shooting with 30% from 3 when he averaged 26 ppg on 45% shooting with 45% from 3 in the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs.

TT/Lebron/Delly have been great defensively. They were great in the Playoffs last year as well.

The overall argument is that the Wiggins for Love trade was a terrible move by the Cavs, which it was. Kevin Love doesn't have an impact on the Cavs' success. They look better without him for the 2nd straight season. And it's not because he's a bad offensive player. The problem is that the Cavs play worse defensively with Love on the floor, Richard Jefferson is a better fit and he's 35 years old :kobe:, and looks more active on defense than Love ever has.

Wiggins would have been a better option for this Cavs team as he could have been molded into a good/great defensive player plus he would also be their best player in transition after Lebron. Wiggins will continue to improve and his value will continue to go up while Love's is at an all-time low. Wiggins is already averaging 21 ppg on 46% shooting at age 20, surely the Cavs could have been better with him on the floor instead of Love.

Surely? Like...my god...just no. Wiggins was the 2nd best player on a 29 win team. He isn't doing anything well enough to make this Cavs team better.

He'd be relegated to a spot up shooter....and if he isn't...it's just taking the ball out of the hands of two far superior offensive players.

A real debate would be about a guy like Jae Crowder and if he made the Cavs better...as he is actually a quality defender and shooter and fits nicely on ths Cavs team. Wiggins just doesn't make sense right now....just like he didn't last year.

You guys are literally giving Wiggins qualities he doesn't have and pretending like Love is a garbage basketball player even though he played great all year.

And **** me...I don't even like Love...thought he was vastly over-rated for years and argued with people about him.

But he's not worse than a 2nd year Wiggins that hasn't done shit in his career and has a skillset horribly suited for the Cavs.

Hey Lebron...you know how you are best suited to play with guys that can shoot and can have an impact on defense....and are smart. We are going to get you a guy that can't shoot, isn't a good defender, and has no experience or clue how to playing winning basketball. You like that idea?

[FireDavidKahn]

Wiggins "can't shoot" and yet has a much higher FG%
Love "the shooter" has the lowest FG% in his career:applause:

[DMAVS41]

I have never once said that. I said he is better than Love..Being better than Love at defense isn't something of note..it's a forgone conclusion for 90% of the league.

Again, this is simply and objectively false statement. You are just burying your head in the sand and don't want to look at anything that doesn't reinforce your flawed conclusions.

The above numbers make sense. The Wolves had a terrible defense. The Cavs had an above average defense.

You realize that if Wiggins was on the Cavs...the defense would get better without him as well playing Love's role...right?

[DMAVS41]

Wiggins "can't shoot" and yet has a much higher FG%
Love "the shooter" has the lowest FG% in his career:applause:

So...just to be clear. You are saying that Wiggins is as good of a shooter as Love...right?

Please explain your thoughts on shooting between these two players. I'm confused.

[FireDavidKahn]

Again, this is simply and objectively false statement. You are just burying your head in the sand and don't want to look at anything that doesn't reinforce your flawed conclusions.

The above numbers make sense. The Wolves had a terrible defense. The Cavs had an above average defense.

You realize that if Wiggins was on the Cavs...the defense would get better without him as well playing Love's role...right?
Fortune telling =/= fact. Love had the same impact all his years on the Wolves regarding defense.

The simple fact is that Wiggins makes his team better defensively and Love does the opposite

[FireDavidKahn]

So...just to be clear. You are saying that Wiggins is as good of a shooter as Love...right?

Please explain your thoughts on shooting between these two players. I'm confused.
I'm saying he takes smarter shots.

[ImKobe]

Referencing the playoffs last year is pretty weak. The Cavs defense overall this year, at least in the regular season, was improved from last year, but still not great.

We all know Kyrie is terrible.

Here is the thing about the JR stuff...you could say all he same things about Love. He's definitely improved as a defender on this team and within this team.

Why give him no credit? Why act like the guy playing the 2nd most minutes on a team that improved defensively didn't help?

You have all just bought into the perception that Love is a terrible defender...and it's simply not true.

What is true...is that this Warriors matchup for him is a nightmare and he needs his role altered. I've written about this many times and have been saying he needs to come off the bench and play 16 to 20 minutes a game.

But one match up does not inform the worth of a player overall or on a specific end of the court.

And with all that said...there have been no signs out of Wiggins that he's a capable enough defender to warrant thinking his value would be higher than Love's on this Cavs team overall given his inept shooting, playmaking, and rebounding offensively.


:roll: how is that weak? We saw the same teams play against eachother but Love played 0 games in the Finals and Cavs looked better than they have this year.

Cavs are 0 - 4 against the Warriors this year with Kevin Love for a damn reason.

Wiggins can score in the post, he can make plays in transition, he has potential to grow into a great player with the right coaching, we don't know how good he would have been on a contending team if he had Lebron to mentor him, it's a different situation. With Love we already know that he's a terrible fit on this Cavs' roster when they go up against the Warriors.

Wiggins on the other hand had 32 on the Warriors and beat them on their home court in OT when they were going for their all-time regular season record. Kevin Love on the other hand had 13 total points in the 2 games against Golden State, shooting 6/21, he's also 9/24 for 21 total points in the Finals

Love is the better 3pt shooter but Wiggins is hands down a better offensive player inside the arc. He has post moves. He has quickness. He is a more effective scorer at the rim. They both shot 37% on jump shots in the regular season, Love's were assisted on 86% of the time, Wiggins' jump shots were only assisted 53% of the time, as he shot quite a few off the dribble.

Love - 52% at the rim
Wiggins - 64% at the rim
Love - 43% from 3-6 ft
Wiggins - 46% from 3-6 ft

Love also shot 34% in 4th quarters of the regular season vs. Wiggins shooting 44%

I'm sorry bud, it's hard to make a case that Love is a good fit on the Cavs and it's hard to imagine that the Cavs would have been worse off with Wiggins when they don't even need Love to make the Finals and he's a bad fit against the only team they can't seem to beat in the Finals.

[DMAVS41]

Fortune telling =/= fact. Love had the same impact all his years on the Wolves regarding defense.

The simple fact is that Wiggins makes his team better defensively and Love does the opposite

This is false. For his career...Love's team had a virtually identical drtg when he's both on and off.

It's actually Wiggins that sees the defense get better.

For their careers;

Love on 108
Love off 107.9

Wiggins on 111.3
Wiggins off 110.7

What else are you going to lie about?

[FireDavidKahn]

This is false. For his career...Love's team had a virtually identical drtg when he's both on and off.

It's actually Wiggins that sees the defense get better.

For their careers;

Love on 108
Love off 107.9

Wiggins on 111.3
Wiggins off 110.7

What else are you going to lie about?
...WTF?

NOW YOU WANT TO USE CAREER STATS? A MINUTE AGO YOU WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMEONE USING LAST YEAR'S PLAY'OFFS AND YOU YOURSELF SAID RIGHT NOW

RIGHT NOW MEANS THE 2015-16 SEASON

:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:roll: how is that weak? We saw the same teams play against eachother but Love played 0 games in the Finals and Cavs looked better than they have this year.

Cavs are 0 - 4 against the Warriors this year with Kevin Love for a damn reason.

Wiggins can score in the post, he can make plays in transition, he has potential to grow into a great player with the right coaching, we don't know how good he would have been on a contending team if he had Lebron to mentor him, it's a different situation. With Love we already know that he's a terrible fit on this Cavs' roster when they go up against the Warriors.

Wiggins on the other hand had 32 on the Warriors and beat them on their home court in OT when they were going for their all-time regular season record. Kevin Love on the other hand had 13 total points in the 2 games against Golden State, shooting 6/21, he's also 9/24 for 21 total points in the Finals

Love is the better 3pt shooter but Wiggins is hands down a better offensive player inside the arc. He has post moves. He has quickness. He is a more effective scorer at the rim. They both shot 37% on jump shots in the regular season, Love's were assisted on 86% of the time, Wiggins' jump shots were only assisted 53% of the time, as he shot quite a few off the dribble.

Love - 52% at the rim
Wiggins - 64% at the rim
Love - 43% from 3-6 ft
Wiggins - 46% from 3-6 ft

Love also shot 34% in 4th quarters of the regular season vs. Wiggins shooting 44%

I'm sorry bud, it's hard to make a case the Love is a good fit on the Cavs and it's hard to imagine that the Cavs would have been worse off with Wiggins when they don't even need Love to make the Finals and he's a bad fit against the only team they can't seem to beat in the Finals.


For a few reasons;

1. They were without Kyrie last year as well....so that adds in a huge variable that you can't ignore

2. This isn't just about the Warriors series in which Love has an absolutely terrible matchup for him. The worth of a player is not encapsulated by how he plays against one team.

Like...I really have to explain this shit?

3. It's hard to make a case for Love on the Cavs? Have you watched any basketball...like at all..? God I ****ing Hate ESPN. Get back to watching T-mac and Vince Carter you clown.

[DMAVS41]

...WTF?

NOW YOU WANT TO USE CAREER STATS? A MINUTE AGO YOU WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT SOMEONE USING LAST YEAR'S PLAY'OFFS AND YOU YOURSELF SAID RIGHT NOW

RIGHT NOW MEANS THE 2015-16 SEASON

:biggums:

That was in response to a post you claimed it had been that way for Love's entire career in Minny.

I'll ask again...are you ****ing high?

:wtf:

[FireDavidKahn]

That was in response to a post you claimed it had been that way for Love's entire career.

I'll ask again...are you ****ing high?

:wtf:
It was to show a trend...

Meanwhile all you have said is RIGHT NOW and I have already given you those on the last couple pages...

[FireDavidKahn]

Here, let's do this again


My, my, my Wiggins just keeps getting more areas that favor him!

Wiggins ON/OFF:
DRTG: -2.3 :applause:

Love ON/OFF:
DRTG: +1.9

So Wiggins influences his team in a more positive way while Love does the exact opposite, the teams defense is worse with him on the court.

GO WIGGINS

RIGHT NOW

[ImKobe]

For a few reasons;

1. They were without Kyrie last year as well....so that adds in a huge variable that you can't ignore

2. This isn't just about the Warriors series in which Love has an absolutely terrible matchup for him. The worth of a player is not encapsulated by how he plays against one team.

Like...I really have to explain this shit?

No, you don't.

The point is that the Love trade was a bad move for the Cavs since he's no use to them when they go up against Golden State in the Finals.

We saw last year that the Cavs could steamroll to the Finals without needing Kevin Love's assistance, we saw that they could play competitively against the Warriors without Love. Irving was injured last year but Game 1 of the Finals Cavs almost beat the Warriors until Irving went down early in OT, this year they had their first blowout win against the Warriors when Love was out, in big thanks to Irving.

With Wiggins the Cavs have an extra slasher and a guy that they could go to in the post when their offense isn't getting to the rim or isn't getting any open 3s.

To me it's a no-brainer if you asked me to trade Love for Wiggins right now. The end game for the Cavs is to win the championship, they are not going to do that with Love.

[FireDavidKahn]

So, lets recap.

RIGHT NOW

Wiggins positively influences his teams defense, while Love negatively influences his teams defense.
Wiggins' opponents shot 0.6% better than their average
Loves opponents shot 3.6% better than their average

So Wiggins makes his team better defensively and holds his opponents to a lower field goal?

Not a better defender?:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

No, you don't.

The point is that the Love trade was a bad move for the Cavs since he's no use to them when they go up against Golden State in the Finals.

We saw last year that the Cavs could steamroll to the Finals without needing Kevin Love's assistance, we saw that they could play competitively against the Warriors without Love. Irving was injured last year but Game 1 of the Finals Cavs almost beat the Warriors until Irving went down in the 4th quarter, this year they had their first blowout win against the Warriors when Love was out, in big thanks to Irving.

With Wiggins the Cavs have an extra slasher and a guy that they could go to in the post when their offense isn't getting to the rim or isn't getting any open 3s.

To me it's a no-brainer if you asked me to trade Love for Wiggins right now. The end game for the Cavs is to win the championship, they are not going to do that with Love.

You can't make trades assuming you will only have to worry about 1 team. The revisionist history from you is absurd.

The Cavs had no ability to know that it would be the Warriors that they would have to deal with in the finals.

You realize the trade was made before the Warriors ever did anything of note...right?

Like...I know you aren't trolling, but a part of me hopes you are. You expect a franchise to not make a trade because they should know that a team that hasn't been out of the 2nd round will be a terrible match up for the player they are trading for.

I've now heard it all...

[DMAVS41]

So, lets recap.

RIGHT NOW

Wiggins positively influences his teams defense, while Love negatively influences his teams defense.
Wiggins' opponents shot 0.6% better than their average
Loves opponents shot 3.6% better than their average

So Wiggins makes his team better defensively and holds his opponents to a lower field goal?

Not a better defender?:facepalm

I've already answered this, but here it goes again.

It's easier to influence a terrible defensive team.

Let's actually recap;

1. All defensive metrics that are useful and adjust for competition favor Love.

2. Love is a far more versatile and efficient offensive player and has value when he isn't on the ball.

3. Wiggins can't shoot from range, is a poor playmaker, is a poor passer, and is a piss poor rebounder for his position...all things the Cavs would want in this situation.

You guys realize that Wiggins doesn't even do what Roberson did for OKC? Right? Like...if we are just talking about right now and winning in the playoffs.

OKC wouldn't even trade out Roberson for Wiggins...you understand this I hope.

[FireDavidKahn]

I've already answered this, but here it goes again.

It's easier to influence a terrible defensive team.

Let's actually recap;

1. All defensive metrics that are useful and adjust for competition favor Love.

2. Love is a far more versatile and efficient offensive player and has value when he isn't on the ball.

3. Wiggins can't shoot from range, is a poor playmaker, is a poor passer, and is a piss poor rebounder for his position...all things the Cavs would want in this situation.

You guys realize that Wiggins doesn't even do what Roberson did for OKC? Right? Like...if we are just talking about right now and winning in the playoffs.

OKC wouldn't even trade out Roberson for Wiggins...you understand this I hope.
:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

To win in the playoffs right now...they wouldn't.

Roberson actually does something they need in an elite fashion. Wiggins does nothing they need.

Like...you think that is a crazy statement, but the Thunder would have gotten murked by probably both the Spurs and Warriors with Wiggins instead of Roberson.

Because he's actually an elite defender...while Wiggins isn't even average yet.

[FireDavidKahn]

To win in the playoffs right now...they wouldn't.

Roberson actually does something they need in an elite fashion. Wiggins does nothing they need.

Like...you think that is a crazy statement, but the Thunder would have gotten murked by probably both the Spurs and Warriors with Wiggins instead of Roberson.

Because he's actually an elite defender...while Wiggins isn't even average yet.
:biggums:

OKC wouldn't for Roberson for Wiggins

:biggums: :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

OKC wouldn't for Roberson for Wiggins

:biggums: :biggums:


I want this to be right there for you.

Are you saying that the Thunder would have been better off with Wiggins than Roberson in the playoffs this year.

Please answer.

I'm not talking about the future...I'm talking about right now like I said twice.

I want to get you on record to see just how poorly you understand the game.

Roberson or Wiggins on the Thunder in the playoffs this year...which player make them better?

[FireDavidKahn]

I want this to be right there for you.

Are you saying that the Thunder would have been better off with Wiggins than Roberson in the playoffs this year.

Please answer.

I'm not talking about the future...I'm talking about right now like I said twice.

I want to get you on record to see just how poorly you understand the game.

Roberson or Wiggins on the Thunder in the playoffs this year...which player make them better?
Now you are splitting it up into a dozen games? No, this is 2015-16 as we have been discussing ALL ALONG.

When you take RIGHT NOW into the equation, Roberson is terrible. Having a couple hot games in the play offs is not representative of what you are.

[DMAVS41]

Now you are splitting it up into a dozen games? No, this is 2015-16 as we have been discussing ALL ALONG.

When you take RIGHT NOW into the equation, Roberson is terrible. Having a couple hot games in the play offs does not representative of what you are.

The whole season is fine as well.

Roberson is not terrible, but it isn't about that...it's about his fit on the Thunder.

And they badly need elite defense out of that position...and shooting. Obviously Roberson can't provide the shooting, but he does provide the defense.

Wiggins would provide neither.

So we can do it however you like...for all of 16...Wiggins or Roberson on the Thunder.

It has nothing to do with Roberson getting hot. He actually plays elite defense...something you just give Wiggins credit for without him actually doing it....ever.

This is why I brought up Crowder earlier...to no response of course. Wiggins obviously has more potential and will likely be a better player, but in terms of where they are now and what the Cavs need...it's not remotely close. Crowder would help them infinitely more.

You get this...right?

Lets find out;

Who would be better on the Cavs in place of Love...Wiggins or Crowder?

[ImKobe]

You can't make trades assuming you will only have to worry about 1 team. The revisionist history from you is absurd.

The Cavs had no ability to know that it would be the Warriors that they would have to deal with in the finals.

You realize the trade was made before the Warriors ever did anything of note...right?

Like...I know you aren't trolling, but a part of me hopes you are. You expect a franchise to not make a trade because they should know that a team that hasn't been out of the 2nd round will be a terrible match up for the player they are trading for.

I've now heard it all...

Called it a bad trade then and it looks like a bad trade now. A lot of people did. We all knew Love was trash defensively back then, and now it's why they are better without him on the floor.

[FireDavidKahn]

The whole season is fine as well.

Roberson is not terrible, but it isn't about that...it's about his fit on the Thunder.

And they badly need elite defense out of that position...and shooting. Obviously Roberson can't provide the shooting, but he does provide the defense.

Wiggins would provide neither.

So we can do it however you like...for all of 16...Wiggins or Roberson on the Thunder.

It has nothing to do with Roberson getting hot. He actually plays elite defense...something you just give Wiggins credit for without him actually doing it....ever.
:roll: Show me one post where I ever called Wiggins an elite defender. Go ahead.

I'll leave this forum for a month if you can find one.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: Show me one post where I ever called Wiggins an elite defender. Go ahead.

I'll leave this forum for a month if you can find one.

Answer the question please.

Your answer will be telling.

Wiggins or Roberson for the Thunder

Wiggins or Crowder for the Cavs

[DMAVS41]

Called it a bad trade then and it looks like a bad trade now. A lot of people did. We all knew Love was trash defensively back then, and now it's why they are better without him on the floor.

But Love hasn't bee trash defensively...and the Cavs certainly haven't been better without him.

And I'm still failing to see how a raw player with no experience is better suited to win now...especially when said player can't shoot, can't pass, isn't a good playmaker, isn't a good defender, is a pathetic rebounder, and doesn't know what it takes to win.

How is that better?

Do you realize that if the Thunder were in the finals right now....that you wouldn't be saying any of this?

[FireDavidKahn]

Answer the question please.

Your answer will be telling.

Wiggins or Roberson for the Thunder

Wiggins or Crowder for the Cavs
Wiggins for the Thunder
Crowder For the Thunder

This is still only assuming for 2015-16.

[FireDavidKahn]

But Love hasn't bee trash defensively...and the Cavs certainly haven't been better without him.

And I'm still failing to see how a raw player with no experience is better suited to win now...especially when said player can't shoot, can't pass, isn't a good playmaker, isn't a good defender, is a pathetic rebounder, and doesn't know what it takes to win.

How is that better?
:lol I see you reworded your stance about him as a defender. At least you admit he is better than Love. :cheers:

[FireDavidKahn]

Answer the question please.

Your answer will be telling.

Wiggins or Roberson for the Thunder

Wiggins or Crowder for the Cavs
Now find me a post where I said Wiggins was an elite defender.

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

:lol I see you reworded your stance about him as a defender. At least you admit he is better than Love. :cheers:

What?

I've said the same thing from the beginning...I'm not sure he's better at all. I think overall Love probably plays better defense actually.

It's just against the Warriors...Wiggins would be better defensively.

At least read my posts you dunce.

[DMAVS41]

Now find me a post where I said Wiggins was an elite defender.

:facepalm

You certainly act like he is.

But if you agree he's not...then there is really nothing there for him to do.

Poor defender, poor rebounder (like pathetic), poor range shooter, poor playmaker, poor passer...no experience on what it takes to win.

LOL...that isn't helping the Cavs.

[FireDavidKahn]

What?

I've said the same thing from the beginning...I'm not sure he's better at all. I think overall Love probably plays better defense actually.

It's just against the Warriors...Wiggins would be better defensively.

At least read my posts you dunce.
No you haven't. You've been saying that Love is better which is factually false for the 2015-16.

I PROVED that the team plays worse D with Love on the floor and better D with WIggins on the floor

I also PROVED that Love's opponents shoot 3.6% better than their averages while Wiggins is only at 0.6%

Wiggins sweeps it.

[FireDavidKahn]

You certainly act like he is.

But if you agree he's not...then there is really nothing there for him to do.

Poor defender, poor rebounder (like pathetic), poor range shooter, poor playmaker, poor passer...no experience on what it takes to win.

LOL...that isn't helping the Cavs.
He has just as much as Love:roll:

And I never acted like WIggins was elite. Find me ANY post where that is the case. I've ALWAYS compared his defense to Love.

[ImKobe]

But Love hasn't bee trash defensively...and the Cavs certainly haven't been better without him.

And I'm still failing to see how a raw player with no experience is better suited to win now...especially when said player can't shoot, can't pass, isn't a good playmaker, isn't a good defender, is a pathetic rebounder, and doesn't know what it takes to win.

How is that better?

Do you realize that if the Thunder were in the finals right now....that you wouldn't be saying any of this?

I'm not so sure about that.


How can you say that he hasn't been trash defensively when Draymond Green was looking like the Finals MVP with him on the court but got shut down when he was out? I saw one open 3 after another for Green when Love was his primary defender. Why was that the case? They had Love and Irving double Curry and Love wasn't fast enough on his feet to contest any of Green's shots while Lebron can do that. Warriors feasted inside in the first two games but didn't get as many opportunities with Love out. With Love on the bench, the Cavs can slot Lebron in as a PF and they look like the better team in transition with Richard Jefferson (who is still much more athletic than Love at age 35).

Wiggins' rebounding/passing ability has nothing to do with this discussion. Wiggins is not a terrible shooter, I already gave you the stats. He shot the same percentage on his jump shots as Love but wasn't nearly assisted as much on those shots.

With Wiggins the Cavs have another slasher and a presence in the post, a guy we saw dominate the Warriors to give them their only loss @ home in the regular season as they were 1 win away from 70.

[DMAVS41]

No you haven't. You've been saying that Love is better which is factually false for the 2015-16.

I PROVED that the team plays worse D with Love on the floor and better D with WIggins on the floor

I also PROVED that Love's opponents shoot 3.6% better than their averages while Wiggins is only at 0.6%

Wiggins sweeps it.


What? That isn't the measure of defense. That doesn't prove anything.

Do you honestly think the above is the sole measure of defense?

I listed far better overall metrics...they all favor Love.

You haven't proven shit you dunce.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not so sure about that.


How can you say that he hasn't been trash defensively when Draymond Green was looking like the Finals MVP with him on the court but got shut down when he was out? I saw one open 3 after another for Green when Love was his primary defender. Why was that the case? They had Love and Irving double Curry and Love wasn't fast enough on his feet to contest any of Green's shots while Lebron can do that. Warriors feasted inside in the first two games but didn't get as many opportunities with Love out. With Love on the bench, the Cavs can slot Lebron in as a PF and they look like the better team in transition with Richard Jefferson (who is still much more athletic than Love at age 35).

Wiggins' rebounding/passing ability has nothing to do with this discussion. Wiggins is not a terrible shooter, I already gave you the stats. He shot the same percentage on his jump shots as Love but wasn't nearly assisted as much on those shots.

With Wiggins the Cavs have another slasher and a presence in the post, a guy we saw dominate the Warriors to give them their only loss @ home in the regular season as they were 1 win away from 70.

You are using 1 series...specifically 1.5 games as the end all be all on the value of a player.

I don't do stuff like that...it doesn't make sense.

Wiggins is a bad range shooter. You have to actually read...that is what matters for this discussion...I shouldn't have to spell out the obvious constantly.

Wiggins is a fine mid range shooter, but that isn't what the Cavs need. They need range shooting. And Wiggins is very poor at that.

I'm guessing you think the Warriors should trade Klay...right? He's been terrible against the Cavs back to back years now. Shouldn't they get rid of him if he's not going to play great in the biggest series each year?

If it's all about the finals and 1 series...why aren't you saying the same things about Klay? Hell...he's been beyond bad.

[DMAVS41]

He has just as much as Love:roll:

And I never acted like WIggins was elite. Find me ANY post where that is the case. I've ALWAYS compared his defense to Love.

Actually he doesn't.

I'll ask again...if you agree Wiggins isn't anything special defensively.

What is he doing?

He objectively cannot shoot well from range, he both can't and wouldn't be asked to be a playmaker, he's not a good passer, he's a ****ing awful rebounder....

What is he bringing to this team? He doesn't do anything well that the Cavs need.

You still can't answer the only question that matters.

[FireDavidKahn]

Actually he doesn't.

I'll ask again...if you agree Wiggins isn't anything special defensively.

What is he doing?

He objectively cannot shoot well from range, he both can't and wouldn't be asked to be a playmaker, he's not a good passer, he's a ****ing awful rebounder....

What is he bringing to this team? He doesn't do anything well that the Cavs need.

You still can't answer the only question that matters.
You act as if Wiggins elite slashing and foul drawing abilties would be wasted. Must be why James couldn't co-exist with other slashing types

[DMAVS41]

You act as if Wiggins elite slashing and foul drawing abilties would be wasted. Must be why James couldn't co-exist with other slashing types

This is flawed for a few reasons. I'll explain a few again;

1. There was no Kyrie on the Heat. Ignoring this is beyond stupid. The Heat did not have an additional ball dominant terrible defensive guard.

2. Wiggins does not have a sliver of the overall game Wade had. Even comparing their roles is misguided. Wade was not only far more capable on defense, but could actually have the offense run through him.

3. Lebron is at a different point in his career. He doesn't have the ability to make up for things like he could back then. As good as the Heat were at times, that pairing was by no means optimal. It was just that they were both unreal good two way players. Wiggins doesn't touch that.

4. You are over-rating Wiggins and his ability to slash on a team that would be cramped with poor spacing...and you are over-rating his ability to draw fouls. Again, Love had a better free throw rate in Minny most of his years...Wiggins would be off the ball too much...and as he's not a good range shooter or defender or rebounder or passer...serves almost no purpose on this team.

[FireDavidKahn]

This is flawed for a few reasons. I'll explain a few again;

1. There was no Kyrie on the Heat. Ignoring this is beyond stupid. The Heat did not have an additional ball dominant terrible defensive guard.

2. Wiggins does not have a sliver of the overall game Wade had. Even comparing their roles is misguided. Wade was not only far more capable on defense, but could actually have the offense run through him.

3. Lebron is at a different point in his career. He doesn't have the ability to make up for things like he could back then. As good as the Heat were at times, that pairing was by no means optimal. It was just that they were both unreal good two way players. Wiggins doesn't touch that.

4. You are over-rating Wiggins and his ability to slash on a team that would be cramped with poor spacing...and you are over-rating his ability to draw fouls. Again, Love had a better free throw rate in Minny most of his years...Wiggins would be off the ball too much...and as he's not a good range shooter or defender or rebounder or passer...serves almost no purpose on this team.
:roll: The Wolves took the 29th most threes in the league and shot the 25th best percentage.

The lane was more than camped for the Wolves this year and Wiggins proved his elite ability. You need to do some better fact checking.

[ImKobe]

You are using 1 series...specifically 1.5 games as the end all be all on the value of a player.

I don't do stuff like that...it doesn't make sense.

Wiggins is a bad range shooter. You have to actually read...that is what matters for this discussion...I shouldn't have to spell out the obvious constantly.

Wiggins is a fine mid range shooter, but that isn't what the Cavs need. They need range shooting. And Wiggins is very poor at that.

I'm guessing you think the Warriors should trade Klay...right? He's been terrible against the Cavs back to back years now. Shouldn't they get rid of him if he's not going to play great in the biggest series each year?

If it's all about the finals and 1 series...why aren't you saying the same things about Klay? Hell...he's been beyond bad.

Klay has been bad, but that's because he's missed some open shots and JR has played some great defense on him

Warriors would lose a lot with Klay, who carried them when Curry was sitting during the first 2 rounds of the Playoffs. Klay is liable to go off for 37 points in one quarter or break the Playoff record in 3s and is also the best defender at his position.

When Love doesn't produce on the offensive end he's a liability for the Cavs. He isn't going to impact your game positively on the defensive end in the Playoffs when it matters. Lebron is big enough he can do the work on the boards they don't need Love's defensive rebounding ability.

Wiggins can score in the paint and you can get him some post-ups, he can have impact in other ways than just hitting the open jump shot.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: The Wolves took the 29th most threes in the league and shot the 25th best percentage.

The lane was more than camped for the Wolves this year and Wiggins proved his elite ability. You need to do some better fact checking.

Hey bruh...when you have your usage go down dramatically...you are an afterthought.

And like I said...this slashing shit is getting beyond over-rated. I mean the dude is nice and has some potential, but you make it sound like he's just getting dunks against quality teams in the playoffs. And he's not.

Smart and good teams would let him shoot from range...and he'd be almost unplayable in that role.

[ImKobe]

Hey bruh...when you have your usage go down dramatically...you are an afterthought.

And like I said...this slashing shit is getting beyond over-rated. I mean the dude is nice and has some potential, but you make it sound like he's just getting dunks against quality teams in the playoffs. And he's not.

Smart and good teams would let him shoot from range...and he'd be almost unplayable in that role.

Yet he beat the defending champions at their own house in an overtime game with jump shots and cuts to the basket when the Warriors were desperate to hit the 70-win mark :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFP5F-54Cw

unplayable :kobe:

[DMAVS41]

Klay has been bad, but that's because he's missed some open shots and JR has played some great defense on him

Warriors would lose a lot with Klay, who carried them when Curry was sitting during the first 2 rounds of the Playoffs. Klay is liable to go off for 37 points in one quarter or break the Playoff record in 3s and is also the best defender at his position.

When Love doesn't produce on the offensive end he's a liability for the Cavs. He isn't going to impact your game positively on the defensive end in the Playoffs when it matters. Lebron is big enough he can do the work on the boards they don't need Love's defensive rebounding ability.

Wiggins can score in the paint and you can get him some post-ups, he can have impact in other ways than just hitting the open jump shot.

Last year he was terrible as well though.

And the Cavs lose a lot without Love as well against every other opponent. You can't talk about one player against only one opponent and then retreat to talking about other opponents when another player is brought up.

You have to stay consistent.

So if it matters how Klay played in the season and playoffs against other teams...it matters for Love as well.

[FireDavidKahn]

Hey bruh...when you have your usage go down dramatically...you are an afterthought.

And like I said...this slashing shit is getting beyond over-rated. I mean the dude is nice and has some potential, but you make it sound like he's just getting dunks against quality teams in the playoffs. And he's not.

Smart and good teams would let him shoot from range...and he'd be almost unplayable in that role.
1) Slashing doesn't just mean getting dunks:facepalm
2) Dude was tied for 9th in the league in FTA....that's elite.

[ArbitraryWater]

Right now?

What would he do on this team? He can't shoot at all from range...and he's not a good or smart defender yet.

He literally brings nothing to the table on this team in his current form...

10x better? LOL...:facepalm

10x better isn't literal, how do I have to explain this :facepalm


So you think asking more of a guy on a 29 win team that doesn't have an evolved game on either end is better?

You are hating on Love for winning 35 games...when Wiggins is the 2nd best player on a 29 win team. You make Love the 2nd best player on a team and that team is winning 50 games if healthy. Holy shit man...I don't even really like Love all that much, but this is just stupid.

:roll:

That post had nothing to do with Wiggins, but with someone saying Love would be better if he wouldnt be the first option.

Reading bruh.. reading.


Helpful doesn't mean better player

reading comp 101.

Im supporting your case whats wrong with you :biggums:

[DMAVS41]

Yet he beat the defending champions at their own house in an overtime game with jump shots and cuts to the basket when the Warriors were desperate to hit the 70-win mark :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFP5F-54Cw

unplayable :kobe:

He wouldn't be playing that role, and my god....we are now using single games? Like...Love has had so many more great games than Wiggins has had.

A guy making some jumpshots...means nothing overall.

If Wiggins was out there playing sf next to Lebron. The other team would simply leave him be at the 3 point line. If he's not at the 3 point line...the spacing would be a disaster even with Lebron playingthe 4.

If Lebron ever plays the 3...Wiggins can't even sniff the court.

But yea...keep bringing up things in which the comparison makes no sense and his role couldn't be more different than what it would be on the Cavs.

[DMAVS41]

1) Slashing doesn't just mean getting dunks:facepalm
2) Dude was tied for 9th in the league in FTA....that's elite.

He's not getting the ball enough...we've been over this.

[FireDavidKahn]

He's not getting the ball enough...we've been over this.
...But on those possessions he would still be playing relatively the same style. Just because you take Love out and replace him with Wiggins doesn't mean the offense will stay the same:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

10x better isn't literal, how do I have to explain this :facepalm



That post had nothing to do with Wiggins, but with someone saying Love would be better if he wouldnt be the first option.

Reading bruh.. reading.



Im supporting your case whats wrong with you :biggums:


I never took it as literal...just laughing at you for thinking Wiggins is going to be dramatically better than Love. But that isn't even what this is about...so I shouldn't respond.

This is about which player is better for the Cavs right now...and it's clearly Love.

Wiggins is a talented, but raw, player that is lacking in key areas that make him a poor fit for the Cavs.

[DMAVS41]

...But on those possessions he would still be playing relatively the same style. Just because you take Love out and replace him with Wiggins doesn't mean the offense will stay the same:facepalm

I never said it would.

But you aren't taking the ball out of Kyrie and Lebron's hands at all in the playoffs.

This is the whole Bosh issue...why ever feature Bosh when you have two better offensive players.

The same thing here...the difference is that Bosh's range shooting actually helped Lebron/Wade.

Here, Wiggins slashing and ability to draw fouls just isn't moving the needle enough to make up for no range shooting, nothing of note defense, no experience, poor passing, poor playmaking, and pisspoor rebounding.

It just doesn't make sense.

And going on and on about a single game...or attributes that wouldn't even show themselves often doesn't make sense either.

The Cavs need Jae Crowder. He's literally nothing like Wiggins...

[ImKobe]

He wouldn't be playing that role, and my god....we are now using single games? Like...Love has had so many more great games than Wiggins has had.

A guy making some jumpshots...means nothing overall.

If Wiggins was out there playing sf next to Lebron. The other team would simply leave him be at the 3 point line. If he's not at the 3 point line...the spacing would be a disaster even with Lebron playingthe 4.

If Lebron ever plays the 3...Wiggins can't even sniff the court.

But yea...keep bringing up things in which the comparison makes no sense and his role couldn't be more different than what it would be on the Cavs.

Who cares, he can score against Golden State's defense like he did in the 3 games against them this season. Doesn't matter if you start him or play him as a 6th man.. He would have a positive impact.

If you leave him wide open from 3 he'll hit the 3 more often than not..he isn't Andre Roberson, and even Roberson was effective from 3 when he was left wide open. Just because he doesn't shoot that many 3s doesn't mean he isn't a capable 3-point shooter. He has a nice jump shot. He averaged 25/4/4 on 46% shooting with 50% from 3 against Golden State in the 3 games, Love scored 19 points in two games against GS in the regular season and 21 in 2 games in the Finals on bad shooting

Cavs lost by giving up Wiggins for a spot-up shooter who can't even be effective in that role when his team needs him to be. Even if Wiggins played 20 minutes a game mostly with the 2nd unit I could see him having more of an impact than Love.

[FireDavidKahn]

I never said it would.

But you aren't taking the ball out of Kyrie and Lebron's hands at all in the playoffs.

This is the whole Bosh issue...why ever feature Bosh when you have two better offensive players.

The same thing here...the difference is that Bosh's range shooting actually helped Lebron/Wade.

Here, Wiggins slashing and ability to draw fouls just isn't moving the needle enough to make up for no range shooting, nothing of note defense, no experience, poor passing, poor playmaking, and pisspoor rebounding.

It just doesn't make sense.

And going on and on about a single game...or attributes that wouldn't even show themselves often doesn't make sense either.

The Cavs need Jae Crowder. He's literally nothing like Wiggins...
Just curious as to why you assume Love has experience winning and Wiggins does not?

If we are talking about the 2015-16 season than Wiggins would have just as many play off wins as Love...

ANd where the slashing and shit come in Handy is because of the FTR.

Besides...Kyrie and JR provide enough of a threat to not camp the lane:sleeping

[DMAVS41]

Who cares, he can score against Golden State's defense like he did in the 3 games against them this season. Doesn't matter if you start him or play him as a 6th man.. He would have a positive impact.

If you leave him wide open from 3 he'll hit the 3 more often than not..he isn't Andre Roberson, and even Roberson was effective from 3 when he was left wide open. Just because he doesn't shoot that many 3s doesn't mean he isn't a capable 3-point shooter. He has a nice jump shot. He averaged 25/4/4 on 46% shooting with 50% from 3 against Golden State in the 3 games, Love scored 19 points in two games against GS in the regular season and 21 in 2 games in the Finals on bad shooting

Cavs lost by giving up Wiggins for a spot-up shooter who can't even be effective in that role when his team needs him to be.

Love is so much more than that, but I'm not going to argue with someone that thinks so poorly of Love on that front. You are just wrong about him...full stop.

As for Wiggins...he isn't doing any of that playing next to Kyrie and Lebron. Again, he's a distant 3rd option and I'm not even sure you could call him that.

Comparing him to Roberson is ignorant as Roberson is an elite defender. Wiggins isn't anything of note defensively.

And, at least at some point, you have to address the point I keep making that you can't boil down the value of a player based on a single match up. Everything you say is only specific to the Warriors. This could not be a more flawed way of looking at things.

Hell, a few pages ago you said the Cavs should have known not to trade for Love because of the bad matchup with the Warriors. Like...it's beyond revisionist history to say such.

But even if we make this all about one series...Wiggins isn't doing anything. He's going to be asked to shoot 3's and defend....and he's simply not good enough at those things to warrant taking him over Love.

[DMAVS41]

Just curious as to why you assume Love has experience winning and Wiggins does not?

If we are talking about the 2015-16 season than Wiggins would have just as many play off wins as Love...

ANd where the slashing and shit come in Handy is because of the FTR.

Besides...Kyrie and JR provide enough of a threat to not camp the lane:sleeping

I wasn't saying Love does...well, he has more experience than Wiggins of course, but that isn't the point.

If you are going to replace Love...you'd want to do it with a veteran that not only has the skills you want, but knows what it takes to win.

With Wiggins you get none of that. Virtually none of the skills you want and no experience. Hence he's not a good option over Love.

The FTR is a terrible argument. Wiggins was a high usage player playing a bunch of meaningless regular season games. In his new role playing good teams actually trying...those opportunities are few and far between.

Wiggins simply doesn't have a reliable enough skill set on either end to warrant being taken over a 27 year old Kevin Love....

If Wiggins could shoot and was a good defender...sure, but he isn't a good range shooter and he isn't a good defender. So he's not the guy the Cavs need.

[ImKobe]

Love is so much more than that, but I'm not going to argue with someone that thinks so poorly of Love on that front. You are just wrong about him...full stop.

As for Wiggins...he isn't doing any of that playing next to Kyrie and Lebron. Again, he's a distant 3rd option and I'm not even sure you could call him that.

Comparing him to Roberson is ignorant as Roberson is an elite defender. Wiggins isn't anything of note.

And, at least at some point, you have to address the point I keep making that you can't boil down the value of a player based on a single match up. Everything you say is only specific to the Warriors. This could not be a more flawed way of looking at things.

Hell, a few pages ago you said the Cavs should have known not to trade for Love because of the bad matchup with the Warriors. Like...it's beyond revisionist history to say such.

But even if we make this all about one series...Wiggins isn't doing anything. He's going to be asked to shoot 3's and defend....and he's simply not good enough at those things to warrant taking him over Love.

But the Warriors are the only team they have had to worry about the last 2 seasons

last year Love was injured for basically the whole Playoff run and you saw how great the Cavs were defensively...they haven't needed Kevin Love's help in getting to the Finals as there's no competition in the East so that's whatever

Love has other abilities but he doesn't fit with the Cavs. He can be a #1 option 25/12 guy on a medicore team that might not even make the Playoffs but he's never going to be a #1 or a #2 option on a title team. The Cavs aren't going to win a title with him on the floor unless they face the Toronto Raptors in the Finals. :oldlol:

He'd have the same kind of troubles against the Thunder or the Spurs.. if he has trouble guarding Draymond Green he'd have trouble guarding Ibaka and Aldridge, which he did in the regular season...

I'm not saying that Wiggins would be a 3rd option on the roster I'm saying it was stupid to trade him for a 3rd option who can't defend against elite NBA teams. I'd rather keep the #1 pick and have him developing and learning from Lebron than trading him for a guy who's role on the team is to shoot open jump shots and who is getting paid the max to do so...and you don't know how good of a defender Wiggins would have been on this roster, especially if he's playing JR/Shumpert role.

[DMAVS41]

But the Warriors are the only team they have had to worry about the last 2 seasons

last year Love was injured for basically the whole Playoff run and you saw how great the Cavs were defensively...they haven't needed Kevin Love's help in getting to the Finals as there's no competition in the East so that's whatever

Love has other abilities but he doesn't fit with the Cavs. He can be a #1 option 25/12 guy on a medicore team that might not even make the Playoffs but he's never going to be a #1 or a #2 option on a title team. The Cavs aren't going to win a title with him on the floor unless they face the Toronto Raptors in the Finals. :oldlol:

He'd have the same kind of troubles against the Thunder or the Spurs.. if he has trouble guarding Draymond Green he'd have trouble guarding Ibaka and Aldridge, which he did in the regular season...

I'm not saying that Wiggins would be a 3rd option on the roster I'm saying it was stupid to trade him for a 3rd option who can't defend against elite NBA teams. I'd rather keep the #1 pick and have him developing and learning from Lebron than trading him for a guy who's role on the team is to shoot open jump shots and who is getting paid the max to do so...and you don't know how good of a defender Wiggins would have been on this roster, especially if he's playing JR/Shumpert role.


Again, I want to make this clear...

Do you realize that the trade was made before the Warriors had done anything? The trade was not made after the Cavs knew the Warriors would be in the finals...you understand this...right?

Now, the problem with this is that the Warriors should have been at home right now. They were like a couple absurdly made 3's away from being at home.

There are so many variables and things that go into these things...pretending like the Cavs should know 100% who the are facing is silly.

Now, the other flaw of your argument is that Love actually has a nice little match up against teams like the Thunder. You know how the Thunder were one of the best offensive rebounding teams ever? Well, guess who you would want in there battling on the defensive glass?

You know how long the Thunder were defensively? Guess who you would ant drawing a big to the 3 point line or punishing a small in the post on a cross match?

And Love has advantages and attributes like that against the majority of the league.

Keeping the pick is the single dumbest thing to do for a win now team. Are you serious? A team designed to win now...and you want them to keep the 1 pick and develop him when you can trade the pick for a more win now ready player?

Forget Love for a second. You are actually saying the smart move would have been to keep the pick over making any trade? Like...just no...my god no.

This Cavs team is win now. As in 15, 16, and 17 will probably be the 3 best chances it has. Doesn't mean they can't/won't win later, but this team is Lebron. There isn't enough else to warrant thinking that Lebron being the 2nd or 3rd best guy could still contend.

So...ugh...just no. Trading the pick was never in doubt. The question is whether or not Love was the best they could do. I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that with Love...this team has been great for 2 years now.

Losing to an all time team like the Warriors in a nightmare match up really doesn't change much.

You act like these Warriors are easily beaten with other players...which is of course just false.

And you act like the Cavs have no chance bringing Love off the bench. Which we don't know the answer to.

Kevin Love isn't as great as a lot of people made him out to be...again, I'm not even high on him...like at all. But he's a really good player....better than really good. And he actually fits well on this Cavs team...doing better than that for an unproven guy out of 1 year in college...that is better, far better, than keeping the pick in that draft.

[FireDavidKahn]

bwahahahahaha

[DMAVS41]

bwahahahahaha

What?

What would make you post this?

Love was fine last night in his role...and if you watched that game and thought that what they need is Wiggins...you simply don't know basketball.

Did you see that one play where Love was at the elbow and JVG said he didn't like the spacing???? Guess what...that is the only place on the court Wiggins is useful...it would be a cluster ****.

Did you see them get hurt on the glass in the 2nd half? How is Wiggins helping when he's a terrible rebounder for his position?

Did you see how stagnant they got in the 2nd half? How is Wiggins helping when he's offering even less space for the offense to work?

This team just isn't beating the Warriors with Love or without him...or with Wiggins. It's not happening.

Lebron isn't good enough offensively anymore and Kyrie is too poor of a defender and decision maker. That is the real truth. Lebron has become a huge liability off the ball and against this team his on ball play has been putrid overall.

If they trade Love for something truly legit that they need...maybe, but if it's a raw... no defense, no shooting, no passing, and no reboundig player like Wiggins. It's not helping.

And that isn't even to say I don't like Wiggins. I actually liked his play this year and love his potential, but in the 3rd banana role...he just doesn't do any of the stuff you'd want on this Cavs team. If you traded Kyrie and Love...for like Mike Conley, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder. Then yea...Wiggins would be a great fit on this team and could play a role that suits him better.

But that isn't the team the Cavs have...nor is he what the Cavs need.

[Euroleague]

Love ain't pushing any team over the edge. That much should have been obvious.

And Wiggins definitely has a chance to be a cornerstone. He just got done with a 21 PPG season at the ripe old age of 20. Him and Towns are going to terrorize the league in a few years.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/5Ys9rGHaQ3fS8/200.gif

[Euroleague]

Much better? Nah...Love never had someone as good as Towns.

I'll ask again...what is Wiggins adding to this Cavs team?

He can't defend well individually or within a team concept yet...and he's a garbage range shooter.

Please tell me what qualities he's bringing to the table.

Some people here are really overrating how good of a player Wiggins is. That is for sure. However, I think he's a better fit for the Cavs.

An athletic and long 2/3 that can run the floor, finish, and that can cause some problems on defense on the half court with his ability to help cover on the perimeter, would be a better fit on this Cavs team.

Love isn't a good fit on their team. He's not a good fit chemistry wise, and he's not a good fit playing next to LeBron and Irving.

That's pretty obvious for anyone that has seen the Cavs play a game.

[DMAVS41]

Some people here are really overrated how good of a player Wiggins is. That is for sure. However, I think he's a better for for the Cavs.

An athletic and long 2/3 that can run the floor, finish, and that can cause some problems on defense on the half court with his ability to help cover on the perimeter, would be a better fit on this Cavs team.

Love isn't a good fit on their team. He's not a good fit chemistry wise, and he's not a good fit playing next to LeBron and Irving.

That's pretty obvious for anyone that has seen the Cavs play a game.

Nah...you are falling victim to only talking about this specific series with Love. I'm not even a big fan of Love. Thought they probably should have traded him to Boston if possible for some package centered around Crowder and a pick. Never bought into his numbers in Minny...etc. So this is coming from someone that isn't high on him...like at all.

But, at the same time, he's a very good basketball player that actually fits well on this Cavs team unless they are playing the Warriors. But that is true with almost all of the Cavs players. Kyrie isn't a good fit. The Warriors are letting him go 1 on 1...he's had 2 good games offensively and 2 bad games offensively...and he's had 4 poor defensive games. Lebron isn't a good fit. He can't shoot and he's a turnover machine. He iso's the hell out of the ball and causes a stagnant offense because he can't do anything unless he's singled by a smaller player or he's in transition.

JR Smith can't do anything. Frye makes Love look like a defensive stopper.

I could go on...it's easy to make Love the fall guy, and it is a bad match up for him, but it's everyone on that team. Everyone on that team other than maybe TT has a pretty bad match up and aren't playing well at all.

I'm not going to go over everything again, but the last thing this Cavs team needs as a wing player that can't shoot from 3, doesn't rebound, can't be trusted to run the offense, and plays nothing of note defense.

The problem with Love and really Frye in this series is as follows;

When they are in...the defense suffers too much (a lot of this is on Kyrie as well though as having two poor defenders/match ups is a killer) and when they are out...they can just load up on Lebron and shooters and make Kyrie go 1 on 1 (which isn't good enough over the course of a game and they will all tire out anyway)

What this team needs in place of Love is a guy like Crowder...and something else. A rock solid versatile defender that can hit 3's is what this team needs. They don't need Wiggins at all.

Even then...it's probably not enough against the Warriors....Lebron is simply too inept offensively at this point in his career to beat this team....unless he finds his shot again...which looks unlikely.

But this stuff about Love being bad for the Cavs is just false overall. The Cavs vastly improved their defense this year and Love played very well all year.

Judging a player and or team by how they play against a team like the Warriors is just really silly...

[Euroleague]

Nah...you are falling victim to only talking about this specific series with Love. I'm not even a big fan of Love. Thought they probably should have traded him to Boston if possible for some package centered around Crowder and a pick. Never bought into his numbers in Minny...etc. So this is coming from someone that isn't high on him...like at all.

But, at the same time, he's a very good basketball player that actually fits well on this Cavs team unless they are playing the Warriors. But that is true with almost all of the Cavs players. Kyrie isn't a good fit. The Warriors are letting him go 1 on 1...he's had 2 good games offensively and 2 bad games offensively...and he's had 4 poor defensive games. Lebron isn't a good fit. He can't shoot and he's a turnover machine. He iso's the hell out of the ball and causes a stagnant offense because he can't do anything unless he's singled by a smaller player or he's in transition.

JR Smith can't do anything. Frye makes Love look like a defensive stopper.

I could go on...it's easy to make Love the fall guy, and it is a bad match up for him, but it's everyone on that team. Everyone on that team other than maybe TT has a pretty bad match up and aren't playing well at all.

I'm not going to go over everything again, but the last thing this Cavs team needs as a wing player that can't shoot from 3, doesn't rebound, can't be trusted to run the offense, and plays nothing of note defense.

The problem with Love and really Frye in this series is as follows;

When they are in...the defense suffers too much (a lot of this is on Kyrie as well though as having two poor defenders/match ups is a killer) and when they are out...they can just load up on Lebron and shooters and make Kyrie go 1 on 1 (which isn't good enough over the course of a game and they will all tire out anyway)

What this team needs in place of Love is a guy like Crowder...and something else. A rock solid versatile defender that can hit 3's is what this team needs. They don't need Wiggins at all.

Even then...it's probably not enough against the Warriors....Lebron is simply too inept offensively at this point in his career to beat this team....unless he finds his shot again...which looks unlikely.

But this stuff about Love being bad for the Cavs is just false overall. The Cavs vastly improved their defense this year and Love played very well all year.

Judging a player and or team by how they play against a team like the Warriors is just really silly...

But the Cavs could get to the finals without Love. But then in the finals, against a team like the Warriors, they would be better off with Wiggins.

So regardless, Wiggins actually makes more sense for them.

[DMAVS41]

But the Cavs could get to the finals without Love. But then in the finals, against a team like the Warriors, they would be better off with Wiggins.

So regardless, Wiggins actually makes more sense for them.

I actually disagree with that.

I think they'd make the finals, but I don't think Wiggins helps them against the Warriors.

Also, they aren't for sure playing the Warriors every year. The Warriors get flat out lucky to be in the finals this year.

If it was OKC vs Cavs right now...you'd definitely want Love as it's a much better series for him.

Again though...this Cavs team is not beating the Warriors if Lebron plays like this. This team is lebron....and if he can't shoot and can't move the ball...and can't drive without turning it 6 plus times a game. They aren't winning this series even with a much better fit than Wiggins like Crowder.

Like...gives this Cavs team Crowder right now...and they are still down 3-1 in this series.

Lastly, they can trade Love and get a lot back in return. He's locked in on a good contract for 4 more years iirc...with a player option. So he's an asset even if they plan to move him.

But whether they have Love or don't...they are not beating this Warriors team with Lebron unable to shoot. They'd have to add 3 rotation players and transform the team to even have a chance with Lebron like this.

[FireDavidKahn]

Love with another great performance so far:applause:

[yeaaaman]

If the Cavs go out tonight and Love puts forth an effort like his first half in the second...I'm not sure what's left to discuss regarding him and Cleveland.

[FireDavidKahn]

Looking strong so far.:bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

Looking strong so far.:bowdown:


Pretty much co-sign with DMavs arguments in this thread and would echo what he has said. Love would be so much more important playing against a team with traditional bigs. Frankly, that's the scary part about trading him. With the Cavs' luck, we'll trade Love for a couple of wings and SA or OKC will be in the 2017 Finals.

You put him on the floor with guys like Adams, Kanter and even Roberson to a lesser extent and he'd be producing. He can pull those guys out to the perimeter where they're not accustomed to defending and he can really create matchup problems. Meanwhile, he's an excellent passer when given space to operate and said matchups to exploit.

The problem is, Golden State is too small and too athletic. They take Love's major advantage on this Cavs team away, which is his ability to either take bigs away from the basket and out of their comfort zone or exploit smaller guys who aren't accustomed to defending players with post games.

The Warriors have little guys who can defend anywhere on the court and their constant switching has even taken his spot-up jumpers away.

For all of the heat he is taking, his defense hasn't even been bad in The Finals for the most part. Sure, he's slow afoot and GSW will occasionally work him in the P&R because of it, but they do that to everyone. He is playing with intensity and effort on that end, which is why -- despite not doing anything offensively other than space the court last night -- he was not a net negative (actually had the third highest +/- I believe).


A coach like Brad Stevens would turn Love right back into the player he was in Minnesota, except better... because that Celtics team is a pretty impressive young group and Stevens is an incredible coach who badly needs an offensively versatile big man.

It's really the perfect fit and Crowder would be a great addition going against a team like the Warriors.... but I just worry about building a team to try and beat one specific other team.

The Cavs are really freaking good right now. In a lot of other years in the NBA, this team would win a championship. It just so happens that they're coinciding with this crazy Golden State team, which is a matchup nightmare for them and for Love in particular.

Plus, I really hate trading guys when their value is low. In a perfect world and against the right opponent, Love would look worth Crowder and Avery Bradley or some other dynamite combination.

Like DMavs said, his play in The Finals has cost the Cavs leverage if they do want to eventually trade Love.

Maybe you'll listen to someone else...

[IGOTGAME]

The people talking about Wiggins, have you watched more than 5 games?

Also no matter what team Love goes to, he will always be a defensive liability that needs to covered. He will also always struggle as a finisher around the basket. These are two things I don't like in my star big man.

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

OMG

I keep winning this:applause:

[DMAVS41]

No, really don't...but whatever makes you feel better.

[FireDavidKahn]

3 fouls in 3 minutes

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll:

Love is averaging

8.4 PPG on 36.8%/31.3%/69.2%
5.4 RPG
1 APG

All while maintaining a 93 ORTG and 115 DRTG

Yet some of you clowns would rather have this guy than Wiggins.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LilEddyCurry]

:roll:

Love is averaging

8.4 PPG on 36.8%/31.3%/69.2%
5.4 RPG
1 APG

All while maintaining a 93 ORTG and 115 DRTG

Yet some of you clowns would rather have this guy than Wiggins.


:roll: :roll: :roll:
Let them think what they think. Timberwolves gonna be a dynasty soon :cheers: