Lebron is top 10 in Finals PPG

[StrongLurk]

top 10 in PPG averages as well as totals...Basically cements Bron's status as a top 10 player of all time AT WORSE, considering scoring isn't even his best skill :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

top 10 in PPG averages as well as totals...Basically cements Bron's status as a top 10 player of all time AT WORSE, considering scoring isn't even his best skill :bowdown:

Agreed. Top-10 all-time.

[3ball]

Lebron is top 10 in Finals PPG


You want a cookie?.. :rolleyes:

Did Lebron lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?........ No, he didn't - he had many series and even entire playoff runs where he wasn't the team's leading scorer - NO all-time great led their team in scoring for every series of their careers, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan.





top 10 in PPG averages as well as totals


MJ scored 5.5 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency across the board (TS, FG, ORtg) and clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438582&postcount=24) - these things take more energy, are more valuable, and control the game better than Lebron's 2.5 def rebound edge (with less offensive rebounds) and 1.0 assist edge (with more turnovers).

There's never been a #1 option that scored 5.5 more on better efficiency who wasn't considered the better player.

In addition to carrying a FAR greater scoring load, MJ led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.

Ultimately, MJ's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.





This cements Lebron as top 10 all-time



No it doesn't, due to collusion.. How many guys would go 2/4 if they teamed up with 2 other guys who were top 5 in PER?



What if David Robinson teamed up with Drexler and Shawn Kemp?

What if Isiah Thomas teamed up with Bird and McHale?

What if Karl Malone teamed up with Hakeem and Grant Hill?


This is why Lebron isn't top 10 all-time - MANY players in history could've done gone 2/4 by teaming up.[

[3ball]

Agreed. Top-10 all-time.



Nope, due to collusion.. How many guys would go 2/4 if they teamed up with 2 other guys who were top 5 in PER?



What if David Robinson teamed up with Drexler and Shawn Kemp?

What if Isiah Thomas teamed up with Bird and McHale?

What if Karl Malone teamed up with Hakeem and Grant Hill?


This is why Lebron isn't top 10 all-time - MANY players in history (100 or more) could've done gone 2/4 by teaming up with 2 other top 5 guys.[

[LAZERUSS]

Nope, due to collusion.. How many guys would go 2/4 if they teamed up with 2 other guys who were top 5 in PER?



What if David Robinson teamed up with Drexler and Shawn Kemp?

What if Isiah Thomas teamed up with Bird and McHale?

What if Karl Malone teamed up with Hakeem and Grant Hill?


This is why Lebron isn't top 10 all-time - MANY players in history (100 or more) could've done gone 2/4 by teaming up with 2 other top 5 guys.[

Look, I know for some reason you hate the guy.

But here is his resume...

4 time MVP
2 time FMVP
2 rings as the main guy
7 Finals (and maybe another FMVP and ring...tbd)
Scoring title.
Playoff scoring average of 28 ppg.
Top-10 in many playoff and finals statistics.
Defensive awards.
First-Teams

Now...you give me a list of Top-10 players that exceed that resume.

[3ball]

But here is his resume...

4 time MVP
2 time FMVP
2 rings as the main guy
7 Finals (and maybe another FMVP and ring...tbd)
Scoring title.
Playoff scoring average of 28 ppg.
Top-10 in many playoff and finals statistics.
Defensive awards.
First-Teams

Now...you give me a list of Top-10 players that compare to that resume.


Wilt
Russell
MJ
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem


That's 10 guys and we haven't diminished Lebron's rings due to collusion yet, WHICH IS THE ENTIRE POINT that you're ignoring - his rings are tainted by collusion.

How many guys could go 2/4 by teaming up with 2 other top 5 guys?... How many guys could go 2/7 by team-hopping twice to play with all-stars?.. you haven't answered this question, even though I answered yours.

The only guys that would underachieve by going 2/4 and 2/7 are Karl Malone-level players, not top 10, Magic/Bird/Jordan-level players..

REAL top 10 players would do better than 2/7 if they got to pick (twice) which big 3 they wanted to play with.

[riseagainst]

2/7 doesn't cement someone as top 10

[HenryGarfunkle]

Look, I know for some reason you hate the guy.

But here is his resume...

4 time MVP
2 time FMVP
2 rings as the main guy
7 Finals (and maybe another FMVP and ring...tbd)
Scoring title.
Playoff scoring average of 28 ppg.
Top-10 in many playoff and finals statistics.
Defensive awards.
First-Teams

Now...you give me a list of Top-10 players that exceed that resume.
Looks like a top 3 resume to me. :cheers:

:banana:

[HenryGarfunkle]

Wilt
Russell
MJ
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem


That's 10 guys and we haven't diminished Lebron's rings due to collusion yet, WHICH IS THE ENTIRE POINT that you're ignoring - his rings are tainted by collusion.

How many guys could go 2/4 by teaming up with 2 other top 5 guys?... How many guys could go 2/7 by team-hopping twice to play with all-stars?.. you haven't answered this question, even though I answered yours.

The only guys that would underachieve by going 2/4 and 2/7 are Karl Malone-level players, not top 10, Magic/Bird/Jordan-level players..

REAL top 10 players would do better than 2/7 if they got to pick (twice) which big 3 they wanted to play with.
You're running out of material my dude. Nobody buys the collusion argument, because it has nothing to do with basketball.

If anything, leaving a team in his prime for another BOOSTS his legacy. It took Jordan YEARS to cultivate a winning chemistry with his all-time stacked team and GOAT head coach.

LeBron had to build chemistry on the fly with a rookie head-coach and no depth...

Your argument actually helps LeBron's case. :oldlol:

Worst material I've seen from you yet.

[Straight_Ballin]

2/7 doesn't cement someone as top 10

And what makes it worse, is that the 2 rings he did win had 2 other guys on the team that were top 5 in PER!

So winning his only 2 rings under that fact and choking 5 other times despite having a team that brought him to the finals each of those years is somehow top 10 worthy. :lol

[HenryGarfunkle]

And what makes it worse, is that the 2 rings he did win had 2 other guys on the team that were top 5 in PER!

So winning his only 2 rings under that fact and choking 5 other times despite having a team that brought him to the finals each of those years is somehow top 10 worthy. :lol
2012 Playoffs: http://i68.tinypic.com/315j3o5.jpg




2013 playoffs: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2013/seasontype/3


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[imnew09]

and only 2/7

Biggest stat pat of ALL TIME

[Lebron23]

:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Straight_Ballin]

2012 Playoffs: http://i68.tinypic.com/315j3o5.jpg




2013 playoffs: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2013/seasontype/3


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Did I say top 5 PER? I meant to say TOP FOUR.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2010

Nope....joining with two other players who are TOP FOUR in PER is definitely not collusion. :roll:

[tmacattack33]

This is why Lebron isn't top 10 all-time - MANY players in history could've done gone 2/4 by teaming up.[[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Bosh went out 2012 in the second round.

Irving and Love were injured in 2015.

So, no, there are not many players who could have even gotten to the Finals those years. There's about probably about 4 or 5 in the history of the game of basketball who could have done that.

[choppermagic]

Bosh went out 2012 in the second round.

Irving and Love were injured in 2015.

So, no, there are not many players who could have even gotten to the Finals those years. There's about probably about 4 or 5 in the history of the game of basketball who could have done that.


No. It's not just about having 2 other franchise players as your teammates, its also the fact that it takes those franchise players away from your competition, making it easier to get to the finals, even if that player is injured on your team or not.

[tmacattack33]

No. It's not just about having 2 other franchise players as your teammates, its also the fact that it takes those franchise players away from your competition, making it easier to get to the finals, even if that player is injured on your team or not.

THAT is your comeback?

LOL.

Thanks for handing me the W in this little argument.

[HenryGarfunkle]

No. It's not just about having 2 other franchise players as your teammates, its also the fact that it takes those franchise players away from your competition, making it easier to get to the finals, even if that player is injured on your team or not.
Yeah, because Wade's Heat and Bosh's Raptors were such a threat before! :roll:

[Lebron23]

Yeah, because Wade's Heat and Bosh's Raptors were such a threat before! :roll:


This

Lakers fans are now dumber than Kobetards.

[Dragonyeuw]

If anything, leaving a team in his prime for another BOOSTS his legacy. It took Jordan YEARS to cultivate a winning chemistry with his all-time stacked team and GOAT head coach.



No it doesn't. Mention MJ, most people will FIRST remember the 6 titles, the scoring titles, the clutch championship winning shots, the moments etched in history( the shrug, the shot, switch the hand). People will remember Lebron's team-hopping *twice* before any mention of his accolades comes up.

[HenryGarfunkle]

No it doesn't. Mention MJ, most people will FIRST remember the 6 titles, the scoring titles, the clutch championship winning shots, the moments etched in history( the shrug, the shot, switch the hand). Mention Lebron years from now, what's the first thing people are going to mention? 2 rings? Nope. 4 MVPs? Nope. People will remember his team-hopping *twice* before any mention of his accolades comes up. He's going to be remembered for that as much as the accolades.
Let's think about it though. What's actually more impressive? Joining a team and creating chemistry on the fly... with guys who weren't even healthy for the majority of the playoff runs, or spending years building chemistry with a GOAT roster/GOAT head-coach.

What looks like the easier path to rings? So it doesn't matter what you think people will remember LeBron by, your opinion is literally irrelevant. What matters is LeBron carried the 2012/2013 Heat to back 2 back rings while winning back to back regular season MVPS and FMVP's!

And again, answer me this. Would LeBron's career look better had he originally stayed in Cleveland and didn't win any rings because his supporting cast was always lottery level bad (which was factually proven) - instead of going to the Heat and winning 2 rings with a good (not great) supporting cast?

Had he stayed in Cleveland, the same idiots would be criticizing LeBron for never winning. He finally gets a decent supporting cast and wins... he sucks because he colluded. You people are morons.

You can't compare MJ and LeBron's situations. MJ was gift-wrapped the GOAT supporting cast and the GOAT head-coach. LeBron had to create his luck by joining two injury prone playoff fodders while leading his team in every statistical category in playoff runs to multiple rings with a no-name head coach.

[Lebron23]

Top 3 greatest player of all time.

[Dragonyeuw]

Let's think about it though. What's actually more impressive? Joining a team and creating chemistry on the fly... with guys who weren't even healthy for the majority of the playoff runs, or spending years building chemistry with a GOAT roster/GOAT head-coach.

What looks like the easier path to rings? So it doesn't matter what you think people will remember LeBron by, your opinion is literally irrelevant. What matters is LeBron carried the 2012/2013 Heat to back 2 back rings while winning back to back regular season MVPS and FMVP's!

And again, answer me this. Would LeBron's career look better had he originally stayed in Cleveland and didn't win any rings because his supporting cast was always lottery level bad (which was factually proven) - instead of going to the Heat and winning 2 rings with a good (not great) supporting cast?

You can't compare MJ and LeBron's situations. MJ was gift-wrapped the GOAT supporting cast and the GOAT head-coach. LeBron had to create his luck by joining two injury prone playoff fodders while leading his team in every statistical category in playoff runs to multiple rings with a no-name head coach.

Both our opinions are irrelevant. But there's countless threads on here dedicated to Lebron's 'colluding' and '2/7' records. Now whether you agree with it or not depends on what side of the argument you're on. But overall, their legacies really aren't comparable. Asides from the ''1-9' retards which was pretty much a debunk to Lebron's losing finals record, at the end of the day MJ is viewed as a winner. A 6 time champion, with finals MVPs to match. 10 scoring titles, the highest PPG in history, etc etc. These are the things that define MJ's legacy. These are the things that will be mentioned and considered first and foremost. This board sits as a microcosm of the kinds of discussion you'll be hearing about Lebron after he retires. 'Lebron James? Arguably most gifted athlete to play the game. Great across the board stats. BUT.... he left a team twice in his prime when the kitchen got too hot. Melted down inexcusable in certain pressure situations. 2/7 finals record, by far the worst finals record out of any GOAT candidate, etc etc. *BUT* will come into any discussion about Lebron. It does now. It will in the years to come.

Also, cut the BS about MJ's GOAT roster and coach. In the first 3 peat, it was prime MJ, coming into his own Pippen and Grant, and role players. The Bulls were a contender in Pippen/Grant's second season and were basically stopped from the finals 3 years in a row by a team better than every East team Lebron's Heat faced during their run. Take the 89 or 90 Bulls, put them in 2011, and they cakewalk to the finals too. And we all know MJ isn't going to do what Lebron did against Dallas that year. Furthermore, MJ wasn't 'gift-wrapped' anything. Scottie developed into a great player over time ALONGSIDE MJ, the relationship between them was developed organically, not a manufactured pairing with an established top 3 player( at the time) in Wade and Bosh who was considered top 10-15 at the time. Lebron could afford to build something immediate on the fly with Miami because Wade and Bosh were legit stars and alphas on their own teams. Not to forget that outside the Bulls and Celtics, the Eastern conference was complete shit as it has been throughout Lebron's career. So no, you can't compare their circumstances but that's not a feather in Lebron's cap.

Phil's a great coach with an excellent sense of timing, taking on the Bulls when MJ was coming into his prime, with an upcoming Pippen, or taking on the Lakers with Shaq coming into his prime with an upcoming Kobe. Notice a pattern? Go coach the current Knicks and do something with them before I entertain any BS about him being a GOAT coach.

[branslowski]

Look, I know for some reason you hate the guy.

But here is his resume...

4 time MVP
2 time FMVP
2 rings as the main guy
7 Finals (and maybe another FMVP and ring...tbd)
Scoring title.
Playoff scoring average of 28 ppg.
Top-10 in many playoff and finals statistics.
Defensive awards.
First-Teams

Now...you give me a list of Top-10 players that exceed that resume.

Kobe

More Titles
More All NBA
More All Defensive
More All Star Selections
More Playoff points
More Scoring Title

Both 7 Finals
Both 2 Finals MVP

LeBron More Regular Season MVPs, Nash also has more than Shaq.

[feyki]

I think scoring best facet of Lebron's game . Yea , he is/was all time great defender and playmaker for his position . But his most dominant face was/is scoring .

[ImKobe]

Kobe

More Titles
More All NBA
More All Defensive
More All Star Selections
More Playoff points
More Scoring Title

Both 7 Finals
Both 2 Finals MVP

LeBron More Regular Season MVPs, Nash also has more than Shaq.

Not fair comparing Lebron to Kobe..Lebron isn't even close to Kobe's greatness when it comes to Playoffs success. 2 titles in 7 Finals in this era is absolutely pathetic.

[Mr Feeny]

Not fair comparing Lebron to Kobe..Lebron isn't even close to Kobe's greatness when it comes to Playoffs success. 2 titles in 7 Finals in this era is absolutely pathetic.You're right he's ten times better as an individual playoff performer. Absolutely not fair:banana: