Kyrie Irving leading the 2016 finals in scoring

[TheMarkMadsen]

But he sucks, right?

Kyrie: 25/4/4 on 43% vs Curry: 22/5/5 on 44%

[SouBeachTalents]

Has any non troll said this?

[1987_Lakers]

Has any non troll said this?

Exactly. Pointless thread tbh.

Edit: BTW I'm actually surprised how similar Kyrie & Curry's numbers are considering Kyrie played great in the last 2 games while people have been on Curry's case all series.

[stalkerforlife]

I'd move forward with Kyrie and Love if I was the Cavs.

Drop Bran like he dropped you.

Kyrie can carry a team offensively.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Has any non troll said this?


Hard to keep up with who's a troll and who's not, but there was a 7 page thread with more than half of the posters telling us how bad Kyrie is.

[STATUTORY]

Has any non troll said this?

Mike & Mike on ESPN will be parroting this point come Monday morning

ESPN execs writing the script at this very moment

[TheMarkMadsen]

Exactly. Pointless thread tbh.


Thread about the 23 year old leading the finals in scoring during a series that features two all time greats = pointless


:roll: :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

Hard to keep up with who's a troll and who's not, but there was a 7 page thread with more than half of the posters telling us how bad Kyrie is.

:lol

And the media is trying to say he shot them out of the game.

Kyrie is just another scapegoat.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Exactly. Pointless thread tbh.

Edit: BTW I'm actually surprised how similar Kyrie & Curry's numbers are considering Kyrie played great in the last 2 games while people have been on Curry's case all series.

How is it a pointless thread? Would it be a pointless thread if Lebron was leading the finals in scoring :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.

[KungFuJoe]

All Kyrie can do is score. That's it. Nothing else.

[Smoke117]

melting down as usual

[All Net]

Don't think people are saying Kyrie has been the problem

He had 32 last night and played well.

[jimmy77x]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.

He's 24 and all he does is chuck. Zero impact outside of one on one scoring. He can't sustain efficient play throughout a season which is why he will never be MVP or even have close to the records/accolades of curry.

[ImKobe]

Irving has played like he's supposed to but Lebron hasn't been getting it done offensively when it counts...yes he can get 30 when the game is already decided but when it's close in the 4th he shrinks under the pressure per the usual...

them triple double numbers don't mean jack when you're losing games by not showing up at home with your team up 2 points with 10 minutes left in the 4th, how you gonna end up getting blown out on your home floor in a game that is the difference between you tying the series or facing elimination on the road against a team that can count their home losses on one hand after playing a 100 games?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Don't think people are saying Kyrie has been the problem

He had 32 last night and played well.


Article is about love but video is what I'm talking about

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2016/story/_/id/16123285/nba-playoffs-2016-kevin-love-perplexed-doubters

"It was everything you hate about Kyrie"

Lmao ESPN.

[jlip]

And Kyrie leading the Cavs in scoring is partially the Cavs' problem. I will continue to repeat myself. Lebron's teams are better when he is the aggressor. Kyrie, as a scorer, is basically a perimeter version of Adrian Dantley. The individual numbers look impressive, and some of the moves are aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't contribute to optimum team basketball. So much of Irving's scoring is predicated on one- on- one/ iso play that doesn't involve any other teammate touching the ball. In pick and roll situations he is looking to score and rarely sees that the person who sets the pick is wide open for a better shot. When Lebron is aggressive, even if his shot is off, his aggression creates opportunities for others.

Wasn't there a story shortly after Lue had taken over about him saying that a certain number of passes was better for the offense, but Irving responded implying that he was going to continue to do what he's been doing?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And Kyrie leading the Cavs in scoring is partially the Cavs' problem. I will continue to repeat myself. Lebron's teams are better when he is the aggressor. Kyrie, as a scorer, is basically a perimeter version of Adrian Dantley. The individual numbers look impressive, and some of the moves are aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't contribute to optimum team basketball. So much of Irving's scoring is predicated on one- on- one/ iso play that doesn't involve any other teammate touching the ball. In pick and roll situations he is looking to score and rarely sees that the person who sets the pick is wide open for a better shot. When Lebron is aggressive, even if his shot is off, his aggression creates opportunities for others.

Wasn't there a story shortly after Lue had taken over about him saying that a certain number of passes was better for the offense, but Irving responded implying that he was going to continue to do what he's been doing?

Complete and utter rubbish.

Sorry dude, but I almost threw up in my mouth a little reading your soliloquy.

[jlip]

Complete and utter rubbish.

Sorry dude, but I almost threw up in my mouth a little reading your soliloquy.

Care to explain? I'm waiting on that laundry list of wins achieved by Kyrie dominating the scoring.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll:
Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.

Not only that, but when Kyrie has blown past Curry in their one-on-one's, he has had to deal with either Bogut or Draymond at the rim. He's certainly not getting any easy baskets against them.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.
Unfortunately, Kyrie doesn't have the benefit of sitting long stretches so that he still has his legs for the last 5 minutes. That's been the biggest difference in this series... Golden State's ability to go to their bench and, not just have it match the starters' production, but in many cases exceed it.

Kyrie or LeBron come out of the game and things immediately start falling apart. Livingston and Iggy come in the game and suddenly GS looks just as formidable, if not moreso.

Last night was a perfect example. Let's be honest about it... Kyrie was eating Curry's lunch for 3 1/2 quarters. But, he had to fight and scratch and claw so hard to help keep the Cavs in the game offensively while simultaneously chasing Curry all over the court or having to defend the much taller Livingston... it showed in the last few minutes.

You know who would have been very helpful in this series? The 2015 version of Delly off the bench. What the hell has happened to that guy in the playoffs? Not only is he a guy that the defense can literally ignore on the offensive side, Kyrie has been a much better defender than him in The Finals, even though Irving has to carry such an incredible offensive load and that's, like, Delly's only job.

Two guys can only do so much against a great team like Golden State. But, the play by Kyrie in this series, really on both ends of the floor, should be opening some people's eyes... especially considering his age.

He gives me hope that, as LeBron ages and eventually transitions to a fulltime PF, we'll still be able to contend... because he's only going to get better.

This series likely ends tomorrow, mainly because of how good the Warriors are, not anything the Cavs didn't do. I give respect where it's due. But Kyrie has been a problem for them and that's one thing that gives me hope going forward.

[34-24 Footwork]

Care to explain? I'm waiting on that laundry list of wins achieved by Kyrie dominating the scoring.

Care to explain the laundry list of wins in this series by the Cavs when Lebron is fumbling through the lane only to kick out to some random scrub behind the arc?

Shit worked with Ray Allen, Wade, Bosh, Battier and Mike Miller.

Those days are over.

[Smoke117]

Complete and utter rubbish.

Sorry dude, but I almost threw up in my mouth a little reading your soliloquy.


Then you're an idiot...because what he said is right.

[RedBlackAttack]

And Kyrie leading the Cavs in scoring is partially the Cavs' problem. I will continue to repeat myself. Lebron's teams are better when he is the aggressor. Kyrie, as a scorer, is basically a perimeter version of Adrian Dantley. The individual numbers look impressive, and some of the moves are aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't contribute to optimum team basketball. So much of Irving's scoring is predicated on one- on- one/ iso play that doesn't involve any other teammate touching the ball. In pick and roll situations he is looking to score and rarely sees that the person who sets the pick is wide open for a better shot. When Lebron is aggressive, even if his shot is off, his aggression creates opportunities for others.

Wasn't there a story shortly after Lue had taken over about him saying that a certain number of passes was better for the offense, but Irving responded implying that he was going to continue to do what he's been doing?
Did LeBron look like he was doing a great job being the "aggressor" last night? Literally the only reason the Cavs were in the game was Kyrie Irving. And, it wasn't just isolation. He was hitting spot-up threes. He even roasted Curry in the post a few times.

Also, the same people who now scream about their favorite new term -- "hero ball" -- have no problem with a certain player taking 30-footers off the dribble, so long as they go in. There is no more of a "hero ball" play in the league right now than the Curry/Thompson contested three-point heave from five-feet behind the line. They're just two incredible shooters, so it works for them.


The Cavs' offense has been humming like a well oiled machine prior to playing Golden State. The problem with the Warriors is, because they switch every screen, whether it is on the ball or off of it, they virtually force you into playing one-on-one. It's the same problem OKC had. Unfortunately, we don't have their length defensively which was the primary reason the Warriors had trouble with them. Westbrook and Durrant were doing the same kind of ISOing and 1-on-1 that LeBron and Kyrie are forced to do... and Kyrie has been one of the most consistently successful.


To use an example of how playing the Warriors is unlike playing any other team in the league...

Channing Frye had been awesome in these playoffs because he can do a reasonable job defensively against most of today's 4s and 5s and, when the Cavs go to those funky shooting lineups, it takes a big completely out of their defensive game. Unfortunately, we have a lot of those kind of guys and they are absolutely useless against the Warriors.

So, Kyrie breaking down the defense with his vast scoring skillset takes different forms depending on the opponent. Against this one, he has no choice but to try to make a play one-on-one. And, the same goes for LBJ, which is why he has been struggling too.

If/when the Warriors start losing this incredible cavalcade of defenders who can switch everything, be it to potentially age (Iggy, Livingston) or free agency (Barnes), every team in the league is going to continue to be forced to play simplistic offense against them. It's an advantage that we have a player who can still thrive under those conditions, not a hindrance.

[RedBlackAttack]

Care to explain the laundry list of wins in this series by the Cavs when Lebron is fumbling through the lane only to kick out to some random scrub behind the arc?

Shit worked with Ray Allen, Wade, Bosh, Battier and Mike Miller.

Those days are over.
Let's be honest about it... the Heat never had to deal with a team as good as the ones the Cavs are forced to go through to get a title. You can make an argument for the 2014 Spurs I guess, but they destroyed the Heat in much worse fashion than the Warriors have the Cavs, so that only further illustrates the point.

[Milbuck]

And Kyrie leading the Cavs in scoring is partially the Cavs' problem. I will continue to repeat myself. Lebron's teams are better when he is the aggressor. Kyrie, as a scorer, is basically a perimeter version of Adrian Dantley. The individual numbers look impressive, and some of the moves are aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't contribute to optimum team basketball. So much of Irving's scoring is predicated on one- on- one/ iso play that doesn't involve any other teammate touching the ball. In pick and roll situations he is looking to score and rarely sees that the person who sets the pick is wide open for a better shot. When Lebron is aggressive, even if his shot is off, his aggression creates opportunities for others.

Wasn't there a story shortly after Lue had taken over about him saying that a certain number of passes was better for the offense, but Irving responded implying that he was going to continue to do what he's been doing?
I've criticized Kyrie for his ability to lead a team but this series is hardly something you can knock him for, his play is like 80% the reason they won game 3 and were right there last game. Everything's fine in the pretty fantasy world where Lebron is constantly attacking, but what is Kyrie supposed to do when he is literally the only one out there playing like his balls haven't disappeared? When there are 4 guys on the court, including Lebron, all wanting no part of anything and just looking at Kyrie like "do something", I wouldn't blame Kyrie for going for it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Then you're an idiot...because what he said is right.

You only agree with him because your head is shoved directly up LeBron's ass. Goofy bastard :oldlol:

Most of what that guy said is inaccurate anyway, and the sample he's using is WAY small to make such a broad and absurd conclusion. LeBron doesn't NEED to monopolize the ball every possession to score just for Cleveland to be considered "better". That's sub-optimal basketball at best ie. the 2009 and 2010 Cavs.

He can start by playing better defense. Hitting jumpers. Or even just finding guys without turning the ball over like a maniac.

[stalkerforlife]

You only agree with him because your head is shoved directly up LeBron's ass. Goofy bastard :oldlol:

Most of what that guy said is inaccurate, and the sample he's using is WAY small to make such a broad and absurd conclusion.

LeBron doesn't need to monopolize the ball every possession to score just for the Cavs to be considered "better". That's sub-optimal basketball at best ie. the 2009 and 2010 Cavs.

He can start by playing better defense. Hitting jumpers. Or even just finding guys without turning the ball over like a maniac.

:lol

These Bransvestites have no shame.

[Milbuck]

You only agree with him because your head is shoved directly up LeBron's ass. Goofy bastard :oldlol:
LOL SMOKE :lebronamazed: :lebronamazed: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Smoke117]

You only agree with him because your head is shoved directly up LeBron's ass. Goofy bastard :oldlol:

Most of what that guy said is inaccurate anyway, and the sample he's using is WAY small to make such a broad and absurd conclusion. LeBron doesn't NEED to monopolize the ball every possession to score just for Cleveland to be considered "better". That's sub-optimal basketball at best ie. the 2009 and 2010 Cavs.

He can start by playing better defense. Hitting jumpers. Or even just finding guys without turning the ball over like a maniac.

Kyrie is a horrible team player though and nearly all the scoring the he does is from iso ball. For Kyrie to maximize himself he has to minimize the team. And I don't even like Lebron.

[stalkerforlife]

Kyrie is a horrible team player though and nearly all the scoring the he does is from iso ball. For Kyrie to maximize himself he has to minimize the team. And I don't even like Lebron.

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

This bitch is so ashamed of his hero right now.

[Milbuck]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

This bitch is so ashamed of his hero right now.
:roll:

[knicksman]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll:

This bitch is so ashamed of his hero right now.


:roll:

Time to quit ish smoke

[Hey Yo]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.
But he was 3-9 in the 4th quarter last night and 1 of those FG's was a layup with 31 seconds left....when the game was over.

Yet you still see it as a pretty damn good game by Kyrie?

[warriorfan]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

This bitch is so ashamed of his hero right now.

:roll:

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie is a horrible team player though and nearly all the scoring the he does is from iso ball. For Kyrie to maximize himself he has to minimize the team. And I don't even like Lebron.
...which was clearly the case when he was going insane in Game 3 and his offensive explosion almost single-handidly put the Warriors in a 20+ point hole right off the bat.

And, that's happened countless other times this playoffs. The guy is averaging 25 points per game on 58% TS with a three-to-one assist to turnover ratio. And, the Cavs have had an incredible offense in these playoffs. They just happen to be playing an incredible defensive team in the Finals that matchup perfectly... and he's still one of the reasons the offense is able to stay afloat.

It's no coincidence that Lue plays him as many minutes as he does. The Cavs' offense has looked relatively horrible with him on the bench in these Finals. Not OK. Not mediocre... horrible. And, that's usually the bench unit with LeBron on the court.

[TheMarkMadsen]

But he was 3-9 in the 4th quarter last night and 1 of those FG's was a layup with 31 seconds left....when the game was over.

Yet you still see it as a pretty damn good game by Kyrie?


Uhh yeah?

He was the only reason it wasn't a complete blowout by halftime. He was the only cavs who was playing aggressively, attacking and looking for his shot.

He dropped 32 points & looked like an absolute star for most of the game.

Would his performance have been better if he would have hit some uncontested lay ups at the end of the game when the team needed threes?

[Hey Yo]

Uhh yeah?

He was the only reason it wasn't a complete blowout by halftime. He was the only cavs who was playing aggressively, attacking and looking for his shot.

He dropped 32 points & looked like an absolute star for most of the game.

Would his performance have been better if he would have hit some uncontested lay ups at the end of the game when the team needed threes?
But the trend since the 2011 Finals is "what you do in the 4th quarter trumps anything done in the first 3 quarters if the game is close"......correct?

You could lead the team in scoring BUT.....if you have a shitty 4th quarter and the team loses......then you had a shitty game. That's the way it's been defined since the end of the 2011 Finals....correct??

Or does it only apply to certain players??

His 3rd FG of the quarter was an uncontested layup with 31 seconds left.

[jlip]

Did LeBron look like he was doing a great job being the "aggressor" last night? Literally the only reason the Cavs were in the game was Kyrie Irving. And, it wasn't just isolation. He was hitting spot-up threes. He even roasted Curry in the post a few times.



For the sake of space, I didn't copy the entire post. You're right. Lebron was not the aggressor last night. That is my point. There were several plays where he actually got into the paint, was open, and passed the ball. I remember a play in the 4th quarter with something like 6-7 minutes left in the game, and it was a six point game. Lebron got into the paint, and could have scored over whoever was in front of him, but he passed it out to someone for a three pointer, and they missed. i was screaming, "Shoot the ball, Lebron!" Right after that GSW shot a three pointer and went up nine points. Lebron was refusing to be aggressive.

Also, my disapproval of Kyrie's game, is not merely about game 4 or just this series. I know the Warriors are making a case for the GOAT team, and I never expected the Cavs to beat them. That's not really my concern, but I still stand by what I said about Kyrie's game. It is great for the individual, but overall, it is not best for the team, in my opinion. When your game is focused primarily on you "getting yours" while everyone stands and watches, even if you score 40, that usually doesn't bode well for the team. It's one thing to get hot or in a zone. It's another for that to be your default MO as a player. I've seen Irving, too many times, neglect simple passes on a pick and roll that Delly or definitely Lebron would have made that would have led to an easier basket. Also watching him dribble 8 seconds off the clock after he's crossed halfcourt ,without making one pass, then shooting is frustrating to me. It's almost as frustrating as watching Lebron pass when he's open. My position on Irving's game is not an anomaly, as Coach Lue has alluded to it recently as well as his teammates this season.

[jlip]

You only agree with him because your head is shoved directly up LeBron's ass. Goofy bastard :oldlol:

Most of what that guy said is inaccurate anyway, and the sample he's using is WAY small to make such a broad and absurd conclusion. LeBron doesn't NEED to monopolize the ball every possession to score just for Cleveland to be considered "better". That's sub-optimal basketball at best ie. the 2009 and 2010 Cavs.

He can start by playing better defense. Hitting jumpers. Or even just finding guys without turning the ball over like a maniac.

Evidently my post went way over your head if somehow you got, "LeBron monopolizing the ball every possession to score just for Cleveland to be considered "better". out of it. At no point in my post did I even remotely imply that Lebron "monopolizing the ball on every possession" was a solution. I clearly stated that Lebron should look to be the lead aggressor. The offense should run through him, and he should look for his shot more, while Kyrie should look to pass more. In no sensible world does, being the aggressor/ leading scorer naturally translate to monopolizing the ball on every possession, but somehow you managed to make that conflation. :facepalm

[RedBlackAttack]

Also, my disapproval of Kyrie's game, is not merely about game 4 or just this series. I know the Warriors are making a case for the GOAT team, and I never expected the Cavs to beat them. That's not really my concern, but I still stand by what I said about Kyrie's game. It is great for the individual, but overall, it is not best for the team, in my opinion. When your game is focused primarily on you "getting yours" while everyone stands and watches, even if you score 40, that usually doesn't bode well for the team. It's one thing to get hot or in a zone. It's another for that to be your default MO as a player. I've seen Irving, too many times, neglect simple passes on a pick and roll that Delly or definitely Lebron would have made that would have led to an easier basket. Also watching him dribble 8 seconds off the clock after he's crossed halfcourt ,without making one pass, then shooting is frustrating to me. It's almost as frustrating as watching Lebron pass when he's open. My position on Irving's game is not an anomaly, as Coach Lue has alluded to it recently as well as his teammates this season.
I'd respond to this critique a couple of ways. First, you have to remember that he just turned 24 and is obviously still growing as a player. He can score from anywhere on the court and, in these playoffs in particular, has shown promise off-the-ball and even posting up. He's also one hell of a longrange shooter, be it off-the-dribble or spotting up. Those traits alone make him more than just an "ISO specialist" as some people like to call him.

His ability to use his savant-like dribbling skills to get teammates better shots has been a work in progress... but it is progressing. You still have the occasional lost possession where he dribbles around for 15 seconds and hoists a difficult shot, but they've been far fewer this year, especially in these playoffs. He is only committing, like, 2 turnovers a game which is amazing given the way he handles the basketball. Irving has to isolate more against the Warriors specifically out of necessity because the Cavs' whole offense has frankly been shut down by an awesome defensive team that matches up perfectly. But, watch the Toronto series... or Atlanta... or Detroit. Say what you will about the East, but those are not poor defensive teams and he roasted all of them in a variety of ways.

It's no mistake that the Cavs' starting lineup of Irving-Smith-James-Love-Thompson has an offensive rating of 120.4 in these playoffs, which is just mind-boggling. You don't get to numbers like that by having an "team offense killer" on the floor. That figure out-ranks any of the most frequently used lineups of GS, OKC, SAS or anyone else.

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*78&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs


There is no denying that Kyrie formed some bad habits in his first few years in the league. But, diagnose the situation and look at the (relatively obvious) improvements. He's now had four head coaches in his near five-year NBA career. That includes his first three years spent under the watchful eyes of either Byron Scott (2 years) or Mike Brown (3rd season). Those guys aren't exactly innovative offensive minds or the kinds of guys you'd want showing a young, talented offensive player how to adapt to a complex system.

Then, think about where players like Steph Curry were in their growth as players at age 23. He was barely logging 28 minutes a game on a horrible team before being injured just 25 games into the season. People seem to want Kyrie Irving to be a finished product before he has had a chance to grow with something even resembling a healthy offensive team and/or competent coaching staff.

I can't even imagine what Pop could do with a player as offensively versatile as Kyrie Irving.

[TheMarkMadsen]

But the trend since the 2011 Finals is "what you do in the 4th quarter trumps anything done in the first 3 quarters if the game is close"......correct?

You could lead the team in scoring BUT.....if you have a shitty 4th quarter and the team loses......then you had a shitty game. That's the way it's been defined since the end of the 2011 Finals....correct??

Or does it only apply to certain players??

His 3rd FG of the quarter was an uncontested layup with 31 seconds left.


What the hell are you talking about?

Kyrie has had b2b 30pt games.. Lebron didn't have a single 30 point game in the 2011 finals... the past two games from Kyrie have been better than anything Lebron did in the 2011 finals, there is no comparison to be made here.

Lebron gets shitted on for the 2011 finals not just because of his piss poor play in the 4th, but for scoring 8 points in a game and having his ppg drop by 10ppg from the regular season to the finals.. What are you missing here?

You said that Kyrie had 3 field goals in the 4th quarter last night and you're comparing it to Lebron who had 5 field goals in the 4th quarter through the first 5 games of the 2011 finals.

Man you are dense.

[FireDavidKahn]

Yes, he does suck:oldlol:


Tom HaberstrohVerified account
‏@tomhaberstroh
Isolations in this series (thanks @haralabob):
Kyrie Irving - 18 points on 31 isos (0.58/iso)
Steph Curry - 24 points on 19 isos (1.26/iso)

[Hey Yo]

What the hell are you talking about?

[QUOTE]Kyrie has had b2b 30pt games.. Lebron didn't have a single 30 point game in the 2011 finals... the past two games from Kyrie have been better than anything Lebron did in the 2011 finals, there is no comparison to be made here.
We're not talking about game 3....when the Cavs won. you specifically said how great of game Kyie had last night.


Lebron gets shitted on for the 2011 finals not just because of his piss poor play in the 4th, but for scoring 8 points in a game and having his ppg drop by 10ppg from the regular season to the finals.. What are you missing here?
I'm missing the part where Kyrie "allegedly" choked last night because he shit to bed in the 4th quarter. Isn't that how it goes if the team loses a close game?


You said that Kyrie had 3 field goals in the 4th quarter last night and you're comparing it to Lebron who had 5 field goals in the 4th quarter through the first 5 games of the 2011 finals.
I'm comparing to players who have had bad 4th quarters. You saying Kyrie played great last night, even though he was 2-8 before the layup with 31 seconds left.... when the Cavs were up by 2 when the 4th started.

You ask why the layups from James instead of 3's. I point out Kyrie had a layup also in the closing moments and...........crickets.

Your bias is clearly showing.

[eliteballer]

A PG who has ZERO court vision.

He's just an undersized ballhogging SG who doesn't make teammates better.

OP doesn't understand the game..

[eliteballer]

He's 24 and all he does is chuck. Zero impact outside of one on one scoring. He can't sustain efficient play throughout a season which is why he will never be MVP or even have close to the records/accolades of curry.

Yup..

[eliteballer]

Tom HaberstrohVerified account
‏@tomhaberstroh
Isolations in this series (thanks @haralabob):
Kyrie Irving - 18 points on 31 isos (0.58/iso)
Steph Curry - 24 points on 19 isos (1.26/iso)

..

[RedBlackAttack]

Yeah, if these playoffs have shown us one thing, it's that Kyrie Irving "sucks." :rolleyes:

I'm sure that points per isolation have nothing to do with the fact that Golden State is a much better defensive team than Cleveland... and that Curry can pick and choose when to ISO due to the 10 different playmakers they have on the team.

The fact that Kyrie isn't scoring his points mainly out of isolations only reinforces that he can do more than isolate. His scoring average is virtually the same as Curry's in the series and they've got almost identical FG%. So, where are those points coming from?

[FireDavidKahn]

Yeah, if these playoffs have shown us one thing, it's that Kyrie Irving "sucks." :rolleyes:
0.58 PPG on ISO plays in addition to atrocious defense

ISO plays are supposed to be Kyrie's bread and butter.:roll: :roll:

[bluechox2]

lebron stans hoping this thread goes 2nd page

[RedBlackAttack]

0.58 PPG on ISO plays in addition to atrocious defense

ISO plays are supposed to be Kyrie's bread and butter.:roll: :roll:
No, the ISO plays are supposed to be his "downfall" according to his detractors. So, I ask again... where are all of his points coming from? He and Curry have averaged virtually identical numbers over the course of the series with almost identical FG%.

So.... I guess he IS more than an ISO player, no?

Btw, I'm sure you wish Rubio were involved in this conversation. :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

No, the ISO plays are supposed to be his "downfall" according to his detractors. So, I ask again... where are all of his points coming from? He and Curry have averaged virtually identical numbers over the course of the series with almost identical FG%.

So.... I guess he IS more than an ISO player, no?

Btw, I'm sure you wish Rubio were involved in this conversation. :oldlol:


Curry in the playoffs = 25/6/6 on 45%

Kyrie in the playoffs = 24/3/5 on 47%

But Kyrie sucks doe

:rolleyes: :wtf:

[eliteballer]

No, the ISO plays are supposed to be his "downfall" according to his detractors. So, I ask again... where are all of his points coming from? He and Curry have averaged virtually identical numbers over the course of the series with almost identical FG%.

So.... I guess he IS more than an ISO player, no?

Btw, I'm sure you wish Rubio were involved in this conversation. :oldlol:

The fact that you think that's all there is to it without further analysis is pretty sad.

[RedBlackAttack]

The fact that you think that's all there is to it without further analysis is pretty sad.
For lengthy analysis, click a page back. Unlike, you know, just piggybacking off of someone else's statistics posted on twitter that supports the exact opposite of his critics most often used critique... Obviously, that's next level analysis. :oldlol:

The fact that Irving hasn't been doing most of his damage in isolation situations, but is still managing to score effectively is more to my point than the detractors. Also, he's playing 40+ minutes a night on a team in The Finals and that team's starting lineup (which includes Irving) has an OffRtg of over 120 for the playoffs... none of this supports the "he sucks" narrative, which is beyond ludicrous btw. Embarrassing, in fact.

[game3524]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

This bitch is so ashamed of his hero right now.

Dude always tries to act like some impartial/unbiased fan, but he is one of the biggest Lebron stans on here.

[jlip]

I'd respond to this critique a couple of ways. First, you have to remember that he just turned 24 and is obviously still growing as a player. He can score from anywhere on the court and, in these playoffs in particular, has shown promise off-the-ball and even posting up. He's also one hell of a longrange shooter, be it off-the-dribble or spotting up. Those traits alone make him more than just an "ISO specialist" as some people like to call him.

His ability to use his savant-like dribbling skills to get teammates better shots has been a work in progress... but it is progressing. You still have the occasional lost possession where he dribbles around for 15 seconds and hoists a difficult shot, but they've been far fewer this year, especially in these playoffs. He is only committing, like, 2 turnovers a game which is amazing given the way he handles the basketball. Irving has to isolate more against the Warriors specifically out of necessity because the Cavs' whole offense has frankly been shut down by an awesome defensive team that matches up perfectly. But, watch the Toronto series... or Atlanta... or Detroit. Say what you will about the East, but those are not poor defensive teams and he roasted all of them in a variety of ways.

It's no mistake that the Cavs' starting lineup of Irving-Smith-James-Love-Thompson has an offensive rating of 120.4 in these playoffs, which is just mind-boggling. You don't get to numbers like that by having an "team offense killer" on the floor. That figure out-ranks any of the most frequently used lineups of GS, OKC, SAS or anyone else.

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*78&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs


There is no denying that Kyrie formed some bad habits in his first few years in the league. But, diagnose the situation and look at the (relatively obvious) improvements. He's now had four head coaches in his near five-year NBA career. That includes his first three years spent under the watchful eyes of either Byron Scott (2 years) or Mike Brown (3rd season). Those guys aren't exactly innovative offensive minds or the kinds of guys you'd want showing a young, talented offensive player how to adapt to a complex system.

Then, think about where players like Steph Curry were in their growth as players at age 23. He was barely logging 28 minutes a game on a horrible team before being injured just 25 games into the season. People seem to want Kyrie Irving to be a finished product before he has had a chance to grow with something even resembling a healthy offensive team and/or competent coaching staff.

I can't even imagine what Pop could do with a player as offensively versatile as Kyrie Irving.

I can respect this.

[stalkerforlife]

Dude always tries to act like some impartial/unbiased fan, but he is one of the biggest Lebron stans on here.

A lot of Bransvestites like to hide their true identity in order to seem objective and they're also ashamed.

[SteelerKobeFan]

I'd respond to this critique a couple of ways. First, you have to remember that he just turned 24 and is obviously still growing as a player. He can score from anywhere on the court and, in these playoffs in particular, has shown promise off-the-ball and even posting up. He's also one hell of a longrange shooter, be it off-the-dribble or spotting up. Those traits alone make him more than just an "ISO specialist" as some people like to call him.

His ability to use his savant-like dribbling skills to get teammates better shots has been a work in progress... but it is progressing. You still have the occasional lost possession where he dribbles around for 15 seconds and hoists a difficult shot, but they've been far fewer this year, especially in these playoffs. He is only committing, like, 2 turnovers a game which is amazing given the way he handles the basketball. Irving has to isolate more against the Warriors specifically out of necessity because the Cavs' whole offense has frankly been shut down by an awesome defensive team that matches up perfectly. But, watch the Toronto series... or Atlanta... or Detroit. Say what you will about the East, but those are not poor defensive teams and he roasted all of them in a variety of ways.

It's no mistake that the Cavs' starting lineup of Irving-Smith-James-Love-Thompson has an offensive rating of 120.4 in these playoffs, which is just mind-boggling. You don't get to numbers like that by having an "team offense killer" on the floor. That figure out-ranks any of the most frequently used lineups of GS, OKC, SAS or anyone else.

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*78&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs


There is no denying that Kyrie formed some bad habits in his first few years in the league. But, diagnose the situation and look at the (relatively obvious) improvements. He's now had four head coaches in his near five-year NBA career. That includes his first three years spent under the watchful eyes of either Byron Scott (2 years) or Mike Brown (3rd season). Those guys aren't exactly innovative offensive minds or the kinds of guys you'd want showing a young, talented offensive player how to adapt to a complex system.

Then, think about where players like Steph Curry were in their growth as players at age 23. He was barely logging 28 minutes a game on a horrible team before being injured just 25 games into the season. People seem to want Kyrie Irving to be a finished product before he has had a chance to grow with something even resembling a healthy offensive team and/or competent coaching staff.

I can't even imagine what Pop could do with a player as offensively versatile as Kyrie Irving.

I tried to convey something similar in the Kyrie sucks thread but i let my point get lost in a rant about the cavs organization.

Anyway, Kyrie is young and still learning. He's never had a stable situation around him and the cavs have been horrible at player development.

I ve liked Ky for a while though. Despite his shortcomings, he has impressed me throughout the playoffs and finals. This "Lebron can do no wrong so have to blame the teammates" rhetoric is old.

Ky is the only reason they have looked semi competitive in these finals.

[34-24 Footwork]

All the incredible work Kyrie has done in the playoffs will be forgotten and the media/Cavs fans will be willing to trade away their young talent for another 3&D player.

[knicksman]

A PG who has ZERO court vision.

He's just an undersized ballhogging SG who doesn't make teammates better.

OP doesn't understand the game..


Scorers>>>passers. Why would you want him passing when hes the best scorer on the team? Lebron should be the one playing the dray/pippen role coz hes a shit scorer

[knicksman]

Honestly, the reason why bran is a loser coz of his ego. He has the ego of a kobe yet only the skills of a pippen

[Inferno]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.

Curry was better in Game 2 and 1

[TheMarkMadsen]

Curry was better in Game 2 and 1


Game 2 yeah Curry was better. Game 1 gotta say Kyrie was better, double Currys scoring on better efficiency.

[bluechox2]

bran saw his fmvp slipping away to kyrie...so bran's brain started to notice that and lost the game

[BallsOut]

Kyrie Irving is averaging more points than Lebron in the Finals :lebronamazed:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kyrie Irving is averaging more points than Lebron in the Finals :lebronamazed:


But he needs more help guys!!

[Dray n Klay]

Kyrie scores 1 more Ppg than LeBron and the world goes crazy, Shaq literally doubles Kobe's Finals output and nobody blinks :lebronamazed:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kyrie scores 1 more Ppg than LeBron and the world goes crazy, Shaq literally doubles Kobe's Finals output and nobody blinks :lebronamazed:


That only happened in 2000 and nobody says Kobe didn't have help at that time.

Unlike you idiots who constantly trash Irving even when he leads the entire finals in scoring.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kyrie became the only player in nba finals history (at least since the 60s or wherever bball reference cuts off) to score 40+ points on 70+% FG


:applause: :applause:

Kyrie has officially cemented himself as a top 10 player and a superstar in the league.

And he's only 24

[NumberSix]

That only happened in 2000 and nobody says Kobe didn't have help at that time.

Unlike you idiots who constantly trash Irving even when he leads the entire finals in scoring.
Kobe didn't HAVE help. Kobe was help.

[Dray n Klay]

Finals averages

Shaq - 35.9 points 15.2 rebounds 59.5% FG

Kobe - 22.0 points 6.1 rebounds 42.5% FG




Its not "just 2000". Throughout their entire run, Shaq literally doubled Kobes output from 2000-2002






Kobe tried breaking that trend in 2004, but cost himself an easy win in the process of sabotaging the series :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Finals averages

Shaq - 35.9 points 15.2 rebounds 59.5% FG

Kobe - 22.0 points 6.1 rebounds 42.5% FG




Its not "just 2000". Throughout their entire run, Shaq literally doubled Kobes output from 2000-2002






Kobe tried breaking that trend in 2004, but cost himself an easy win in the process of sabotaging the series :confusedshrug:

You've made two Kobe threads and brought up Kobe multiple times in threads unrelated to him in the past ten minutes :roll: :roll:

Kobe 01 finals = 25/8/6

Kobe 02 finals = 27/6/5

So unless somebody was averaging 50ppg I'm not sure where you're getting this "doubled" thing

Anyways back to the thread.


Kyrie continues to lead the finals in scoring and set an NBA record last night for points and efficiency

:applause: :applause:

[Dray n Klay]

So unless somebody was averaging 50ppg I'm not sure where you're getting this "doubled" thing



Didnt know you were THIS clueless :lebronamazed:


Finals 2000-2002

Shaq - 35.9 points 15.2 rebounds 59.5% FG

Kobe - 22.0 points 6.1 rebounds 42.5% FG




36 and 15 IS double the production of 22 and 6, even before taking into account better efficiency :oldlol:



Shaq was literally twice as productive as Kobe + better efficiency from 2000-2002, and now you're getting your panties in a bunch cause Kyrie is scoring 0.5 more points than LeBron with half the rebounds and assists?? :yaohappy:




Reeks of insecurity, no real fan would count those rings for Kobe from 2000-2002

[NBAGOAT]

well done kyrie up to 28/3/5 on 58 ts% now. :applause: However unlike 90% of people here, I would not have a problem with either Kyrie or Lebron winning FMVP if the Cavs somehow pull this off.

[branslowski]

Didnt know you were THIS clueless :lebronamazed:


Finals 2000-2002

Shaq - 35.9 points 15.2 rebounds 59.5% FG

Kobe - 22.0 points 6.1 rebounds 42.5% FG




36 and 15 IS double the production of 22 and 6, even before taking into account better efficiency :oldlol:



Shaq was literally twice as productive as Kobe + better efficiency from 2000-2002, and now you're getting your panties in a bunch cause Kyrie is scoring 0.5 more points than LeBron with half the rebounds and assists?? :yaohappy:




Reeks of insecurity, no real fan would count those rings for Kobe from 2000-2002

Jesus Christ you're stupid, why?:coleman:

[scuzzy]

Didnt know you were THIS clueless :lebronamazed:


Finals 2000-2002

Shaq - 35.9 points 15.2 rebounds 59.5% FG

Kobe - 22.0 points 6.1 rebounds 42.5% FG




36 and 15 IS double the production of 22 and 6, even before taking into account better efficiency :oldlol:



Shaq was literally twice as productive as Kobe + better efficiency from 2000-2002, and now you're getting your panties in a bunch cause Kyrie is scoring 0.5 more points than LeBron with half the rebounds and assists?? :yaohappy:




Reeks of insecurity, no real fan would count those rings for Kobe from 2000-2002


BODIED~! :oldlol: :rockon:


My boy DnK REKKING Mark :roll:

[LeBird]

well done kyrie up to 28/3/5 on 58 ts% now. :applause: However unlike 90% of people here, I would not have a problem with either Kyrie or Lebron winning FMVP if the Cavs somehow pull this off.

Kyrie's done well and is supporting Lebron as he should. But let's stop kidding ourselves, thus far Lebron has been distinctly better than anyone in his team.

He's literally only scored 1 less point than Kyrie and is basically leading or close to the top in all other important categories.

Lebron is at a level where he goes 41/16/7/3/3 in an elimination game and nobody blinks.

[StrongLurk]

Kyrie's done well and is supporting Lebron as he should. But let's stop kidding ourselves, thus far Lebron has been distinctly better than anyone in his team.

He's literally only scored 1 less point than Kyrie and is basically leading or close to the top in all other important categories.

Lebron is at a level where he goes 41/16/7/3/3 in an elimination game and nobody blinks.

That haters are blinking a lot, practically have seizures at this point.

[Dresta]

Kyrie's done well and is supporting Lebron as he should. But let's stop kidding ourselves, thus far Lebron has been distinctly better than anyone in his team.

He's literally only scored 1 less point than Kyrie and is basically leading or close to the top in all other important categories.

Lebron is at a level where he goes 41/16/7/3/3 in an elimination game and nobody blinks.
Yeah, because he had a teammate that scored the same amount of points on what was effectively nine less shots, the same guy who led the Cavs to their other win by blowing the game open in the first quarter.

Bron hasn't been better than Kyrie just because he's desperately padding defensive boards and dominating the ball (he might have more assists, but he's also got twice as many turnovers).

[NBAGOAT]

Kyrie's done well and is supporting Lebron as he should. But let's stop kidding ourselves, thus far Lebron has been distinctly better than anyone in his team.

He's literally only scored 1 less point than Kyrie and is basically leading or close to the top in all other important categories.

Lebron is at a level where he goes 41/16/7/3/3 in an elimination game and nobody blinks.

I agree about Lebron being better at this stage it's still more likely he gets FMVP if they win. Also been better defensively and the assists especially game 5 were pretty nice. No denying Kyrie's done more than just well however, he's been fantastic and been the best scorer this series.

[NattyPButter]

All Kyrie can do is score. That's it. Nothing else.

and all Curry can do is chuck up 3's and get locked down by Kyrie...so your point?

[dubnation]

Yeah, because he had a teammate that scored the same amount of points on what was effectively nine less shots, the same guy who led the Cavs to their other win by blowing the game open in the first quarter.

Bron hasn't been better than Kyrie just because he's desperately padding defensive boards and dominating the ball (he might have more assists, but he's also got twice as many turnovers).

Kobe fan talking about efficiency? You sound so stupid it's hard to comprehend tbh

btw, he did shoot 16/30 and 4/8 on threes. He and Kyrie both killed it...

[Wally450]

Yeah, because he had a teammate that scored the same amount of points on what was effectively nine less shots, the same guy who led the Cavs to their other win by blowing the game open in the first quarter.

Bron hasn't been better than Kyrie just because he's desperately padding defensive boards and dominating the ball (he might have more assists, but he's also got twice as many turnovers).

So with LeBron missing a couple more shots, he grabs 16 rebounds, dishes out 7 assists on only 2 turnovers (One of them being one of the first possessions of the game) and plays elite defense, but Kyrie is having the better Finals because he's shooting a little better?

I like Kyrie, but he's not having an overall better impact that LeBron is having, just no.

I swear this is the only site where I hear "stat padding rebounds" also. Only other time I heard it was during last years Finals for LeBron also. The guy plays the 4 and played some time at the 5, where part of your job is to grab rebounds. But somehow when LeBron is grabbing rebounds in the flow of the game, its "desperately stat padding".

[Lebron23]

Cavaliers needs to win Game 6. It's still a do or die game for both of them.

[Nuff Said]

So with LeBron missing a couple more shots, he grabs 16 rebounds, dishes out 7 assists on only 2 turnovers (One of them being one of the first possessions of the game) and plays elite defense, but Kyrie is having the better Finals because he's shooting a little better?

I like Kyrie, but he's not having an overall better impact that LeBron is having, just no.

I swear this is the only site where I hear "stat padding rebounds" also. Only other time I heard it was during last years Finals for LeBron also. The guy plays the 4 and played some time at the 5, where part of your job is to grab rebounds. But somehow when LeBron is grabbing rebounds in the flow of the game, its "desperately stat padding".
When you watched the game were you ever wowed by any of lebron' rebounds? Now when you see Tristan Thompson rebound, don't they amaze you how he rips and forces the rebound? It's what folks like to call the "eye test." I know it sounds crazy and in no way am I saying Lebron is a bad rebounder but his numbers overstate his rebounding presence. He is not the best rebounder on his team.

[Hey Yo]

When you watched the game were you ever wowed by any of lebron' rebounds? Now when you see Tristan Thompson rebound, don't they amaze you how he rips and forces the rebound? It's what folks like to call the "eye test." I know it sounds crazy and in no way am I saying Lebron is a bad rebounder but his numbers overstate his rebounding presence. He is not the best rebounder on his team.
Thompson's role is rebounding. He's not asked to bring the ball up court, drive to the rim from the perimeter, he's not asked to run the offense or make great passes. He doesn't run the offense.

He's asked to rebound and play defense. Anytime TT scores it a bonus.

So when James or any other player grabs 15 rebounds, I don't give a shit if he "ripped them down." There is no such thing as style points when it comes to rebounding

[TheMarkMadsen]

Thompson is the best rebounder on the cavs. Get real.

He has 8 less total rebounds than Lebron in the series yet has 10+ more offensive rebounds than Lebron.

Defensive rebounds are the most overrated raw stat there is.

I swear that these bran stans don't even watch games.

[Hey Yo]

Thompson is the best rebounder on the cavs. Get real.

He has 8 less total rebounds than Lebron in the series yet has 10+ more offensive rebounds than Lebron.

Defensive rebounds are the most overrated raw stat there is.

I swear that these bran stans don't even watch games.
But when 6-24 is/was brought up...the only argument was "well Kobe grabbed 15 rebounds."........ yet 11 of those were defensive.

I guess it's safe to say that 'accomplishment" doesn't hold water anymore considering "Defensive rebounds are the most overrated raw stat there is.

Add his 2 assists to the mix and.....what an all around shitty must win game 7 for the alleged "FMVP"

[Nuff Said]

Thompson's role is rebounding. He's not asked to bring the ball up court, drive to the rim from the perimeter, he's not asked to run the offense or make great passes. He doesn't run the offense.

He's asked to rebound and play defense. Anytime TT scores it a bonus.

So when James or any other player grabs 15 rebounds, I don't give a shit if he "ripped them down." There is no such thing as style points when it comes to rebounding
I don't know how you misunderstood my post. I was not referring to style. I was referring to effort. There's a big difference between contested rebounds and easy defensive rebounds that fall your way when you're waiting under the basket for it. Lebron is a decent rebounder but he is nowhere near as effective as Thompson is. Dude's a rebounding monster.

[Smoke117]

But when 6-24 is/was brought up...the only argument was "well Kobe grabbed 15 rebounds."........ yet 11 of those were defensive.

I guess it's safe to say that 'accomplishment" doesn't hold water anymore considering "Defensive rebounds are the most overrated raw stat there is.

Add his 2 assists to the mix and.....what an all around shitty must win game 7 for the alleged "FMVP"

Kobe stans are professional hypocrites

[tpols]

So with LeBron missing a couple more shots, he grabs 16 rebounds, dishes out 7 assists on only 2 turnovers (One of them being one of the first possessions of the game) and plays elite defense, but Kyrie is having the better Finals because he's shooting a little better?

I like Kyrie, but he's not having an overall better impact that LeBron is having, just no.

I swear this is the only site where I hear "stat padding rebounds" also. Only other time I heard it was during last years Finals for LeBron also. The guy plays the 4 and played some time at the 5, where part of your job is to grab rebounds. But somehow when LeBron is grabbing rebounds in the flow of the game, its "desperately stat padding".


Lebron gets the easiest rebounds available.. you should watch shane battier's Art of the Intangible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOgNqSi17oQ). it highlights how when shane battier started at the 4, and only averaged 3 rebounds per game, yet he still had an all star level plus minus, and his teams always rebounded better with him on the court. He explains in the video how boxing out is often more important than always chasing the board. Bron is usually the safety and ball hawk, thus he gets a lot of rebounds, but it is the dirty work of all his minions that is making the space necessary. The intangibles.. brans feasting on the easiest of defensive boards, and scoring only when kyrie has put the team ahead and given them momentum. He had a great game 5 no doubt, banged the jumpers necessary to win, but it took the warriors best defender being out (and with him having campaigned for it), so let's witness how the series plays out with draymond back in..

[Uchmanmamba24]

Kobe stans are professional hypocrites
What do you know, fcukin drunkard! Lebron ******gers like you are losers in every aspect

[TheMarkMadsen]

But when 6-24 is/was brought up...the only argument was "well Kobe grabbed 15 rebounds."........ yet 11 of those were defensive.

I guess it's safe to say that 'accomplishment" doesn't hold water anymore considering "Defensive rebounds are the most overrated raw stat there is.

Add his 2 assists to the mix and.....what an all around shitty must win game 7 for the alleged "FMVP"


I'm tired of explaining context to you. Youre either too hard headed to understand or just choose not to listen. You're the most dense poster I've encountered on ish. But I love how everything you post comes back to Kobe, how about you discuss what we're discussing instead of trying to bring up a dude who hasn't been in the playoffs since 2012??

Back to the thread. Kyrie is leading the entire finals in scoring so if the cavs lose there is no excuse for "needs more help"

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lebron gets the easiest rebounds available.. you should watch shane battier's Art of the Intangible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOgNqSi17oQ). it highlights how when shane battier started at the 4, and only averaged 3 rebounds per game, yet he still had an all star level plus minus, and his teams always rebounded better with him on the court. He explains in the video how boxing out is often more important than always chasing the board. Bron is usually the safety and ball hawk, thus he gets a lot of rebounds, but it is the dirty work of all his minions that is making the space necessary. The intangibles.. brans feasting on the easiest of defensive boards, and scoring only when kyrie has put the team ahead and given them momentum. He had a great game 5 no doubt, banged the jumpers necessary to win, but it took the warriors best defender being out (and with him having campaigned for it), so let's witness how the series plays out with draymond back in..


Great post.

[plowking]

Yeah, because he had a teammate that scored the same amount of points on what was effectively nine less shots, the same guy who led the Cavs to their other win by blowing the game open in the first quarter.

Bron hasn't been better than Kyrie just because he's desperately padding defensive boards and dominating the ball (he might have more assists, but he's also got twice as many turnovers).

How is he padding boards playing PF?

Who is supposed to grab the boards? Kyrie, Shump, JR and Jefferson?

[plowking]

Great post.

Your idea of a great post is a guy attempting to shit on a player for his work rate and his ability to score the ball after he put up 41 points?

You're a moron if you actually meant that.

[tpols]

Your idea of a great post is a guy attempting to shit on a player for his work rate and his ability to score the ball after he put up 41 points?

You're a moron if you actually meant that.


bron put up 41 points last night with green out. He put up 18 points or whatever it was by the end of game 4 with green all over him before the statpad layups at the end. You have to take that with a grain of salt. Now, if bran can face him draymond mano y mano with no more bs, or antics and still dominate, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

[plowking]

I thought Iggy was the Bron stopper? Now it is Draymond? :oldlol:

You guys just keep moving the goal posts.

[tpols]

they are both crucial .. iggy is man, dray is help. both critical. watch basketball.

[livinglegend]

they are both crucial .. iggy is man, dray is help. both critical. watch basketball.

Most of Lebron's jump shots last game were on Iggy, so no Green wouldn't change much.

[Quickening]

I thought Iggy was the Bron stopper? Now it is Draymond? :oldlol:

You guys just keep moving the goal posts.
They are arguing for someone being better than LeBron when nearly every single statistic within basketball points to the opposite, of course they have to move the goal posts and make irrational points about intangibles and killer instinct :lol

[Smoke117]

they are both crucial .. iggy is man, dray is help. both critical. watch basketball.

Unlike you haters, we don't all catalog everything Lebron does or doesn't do so we can come on a forum and talk shit later. How can people be talking shit about 16 rebounds? You tards will think of anything now to bring him down. Lebron could have 50/20 in a game win tomorrow and I'm sure the only thing on the first page would be shit about refs, the jump shots he missed, and how much of it was sta tpadded. The level of cringe on ish is becoming too much.

[plowking]

they are both crucial .. iggy is man, dray is help. both critical. watch basketball.

Cop out reply. :oldlol:

Clearly Draymond is crucial.

LeBron still puts up points and grabs rebounds with Draymond in there, regardless. I'm sure he was putting up 25/10/8 prior to the last game, so he was doing everything you said.

Bron put up 41. Deal with it. Not sure why it irks you that much.

[plowking]

They are arguing for someone being better than LeBron when nearly every single statistic within basketball points to the opposite, of course they have to move the goal posts and make irrational points about intangibles and killer instinct :lol

Everything is so compartmentalised for Bron, and all his great feats they want to put in context. Well only "negative context".

It is literally only Kobe fans that do it too. The LeBron fans on here are idiots too, but they aren't anywhere near as persistent in pushing one topic like Kobe fans.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Your idea of a great post is a guy attempting to shit on a player for his work rate and his ability to score the ball after he put up 41 points?

You're a moron if you actually meant that.


Where exactly did he shit on anybody in that post. :lol :lol

His post was calm, rational and didn't include any ridiculous, overrexaggerated claims like 99% of bran stans post do.

[plowking]

Where exactly did he shit on anybody in that post. :lol :lol

His post was calm, rational and didn't include any ridiculous, overrexaggerated claims like 99% of bran stans post do.

"Bron grabs the easiest of boards"

"Only scores when the game is out of reach"

[tpols]

"Bron grabs the easiest of boards"

"Only scores when the game is out of reach"


well, bron does grab a lot of the easier boards, I applaud the longevity to always be on the court, and athleticism to get those cleared out defensive boards, but it isnt some crazy thing where anyone noticed bron was dominating on the boards all night. When tristan thompson has double digit boards you can feel that impact.. because most are generating extra possessions, and are tough 50/50 balls. Bran can grab 15 boards and no one notices a dominance on the glass because they often were cleared out defensive boards, or tip outs, or whatever, mostly a product of his absurd minutes logged and the fact both teams are running small ball line ups where hes one of the biggest guys on the court (harrison barnes was starting at center yesterday for example).

and I didnt say bron only scores when the games out of reach, just that kyrie has been the one to generate the tidal waves of offensive momentum that have turned odds in the Cavs favor. once again, I said bron was great last game, just that I want to see it again multiple times without his best competition being thrown out. bogut out is already going to hurt them. He set a monster defensive tone early in the series that will be missed going forward.

[Bankaii]

Another moment where the greatness of 2 players can't simply be appreciated because insecure Kobetards/Lebron stans always have an agenda to prove.

[Hey Yo]

I don't know how you misunderstood my post. I was not referring to style. I was referring to effort. There's a big difference between contested rebounds and easy defensive rebounds that fall your way when you're waiting under the basket for it. Lebron is a decent rebounder but he is nowhere near as effective as Thompson is. Dude's a rebounding monster.
I understood.

Thompson's able to give that effort because he doesn't have to do the things I listed in my last post. He can solely use his energy on rebounding and defense.

[Dresta]

How is he padding boards playing PF?

Who is supposed to grab the boards? Kyrie, Shump, JR and Jefferson?
We don't have the numbers in this series, but yes, Bron is notorious for padding boards, at the expense of his teammates.

That's why last year Lebron had the highest uncontested rebound percentage, whereas guys like Mozgov and TT had the lowest. Guy has always been a statpadder; even when in Miami I remember Bosh and Wade trolling him over his statpadding, when he was trying to pad his way to a triple double.

He is well-known for doing this, and it really isn't a controversial thing to say; even Stephen A. Smith (a huge Lebron homer) had to call out Lebron on his statpadding in game 4, and the complete lack of impact of his boxscore stuffing. Taking just raw stats into account when analysing a guy more focused on racking up stats than anything else is foolish, and creates a false impression.

[Dresta]

Kobe fan talking about efficiency? You sound so stupid it's hard to comprehend tbh

btw, he did shoot 16/30 and 4/8 on threes. He and Kyrie both killed it...
Erm, i'm not and have never been a "Kobe fan" you complete illiterate. And I was comparing his efficiency to Kyrie's, which was far superior. This is incontestable fact, so stop talking shit.


So with LeBron missing a couple more shots, he grabs 16 rebounds, dishes out 7 assists on only 2 turnovers (One of them being one of the first possessions of the game) and plays elite defense, but Kyrie is having the better Finals because he's shooting a little better?

I like Kyrie, but he's not having an overall better impact that LeBron is having, just no.

I swear this is the only site where I hear "stat padding rebounds" also. Only other time I heard it was during last years Finals for LeBron also. The guy plays the 4 and played some time at the 5, where part of your job is to grab rebounds. But somehow when LeBron is grabbing rebounds in the flow of the game, its "desperately stat padding".
Shooting a little better? Missing a couple more shots? What complete drivel. Well done for exposing yourself as a stan.

Kyrie had a TS% of 82%!!! Lebron 61%. And here you are harking on like that's only a small difference. Hint: that's a huge difference. Lebron's performance was good, but Kyrie's was clearly better, and had a bigger impact. Putting up 41 on that kind of efficiency destroys the opposing team. A couple of assists (LEbron had one more than Kyrie) and a bunch of defensive rebounds don't do that.

And yes, Kyrie is having the better finals, because in the two games the Cavs won, he was their most important player, and the guy who blew the game open for them. Why is that so hard for your Lebron-worshipping ass to understand?

[NBAGOAT]

Erm, i'm not and have never been a "Kobe fan" you complete illiterate. And I was comparing his efficiency to Kyrie's, which was far superior. This is incontestable fact, so stop talking shit.


Shooting a little better? Missing a couple more shots? What complete drivel. Well done for exposing yourself as a stan.

Kyrie had a TS% of 82%!!! Lebron 61%. And here you are harking on like that's only a small difference. Hint: that's a huge difference. Lebron's performance was good, but Kyrie's was clearly better, and had a bigger impact. Putting up 41 on that kind of efficiency destroys the opposing team. A couple of assists (LEbron had one more than Kyrie) and a bunch of defensive rebounds don't do that.

And yes, Kyrie is having the better finals, because in the two games the Cavs won, he was their most important player, and the guy who blew the game open for them. Why is that so hard for your Lebron-worshipping ass to understand?

what about Lebron's defense last game? Ik chasedown blocks aren't everything but he had quite a few and was pretty good on defense overall, Irving's effort has been there but he's still not great. I don't have a problem with Kyrie getting FMVP from what we seen so far but it's definitely close.

[Wally450]

We don't have the numbers in this series, but yes, Bron is notorious for padding boards, at the expense of his teammates.

That's why last year Lebron had the highest uncontested rebound percentage, whereas guys like Mozgov and TT had the lowest. Guy has always been a statpadder; even when in Miami I remember Bosh and Wade trolling him over his statpadding, when he was trying to pad his way to a triple double.


Is that really a stat? :oldlol:

So I guess Curry and Klay's open 3s are stat padding because they're uncontested shots. LeBron's assists are stat padded because the guy he passed it to was open for an uncontested shot.

Rebounding is simple. Grab the board to prevent the opposing team from getting extra possessions. Whether it be LeBron, Thompson, or Irving, you don't want a team like GS getting more possessions. Tristan Thompson had 15 rebounds himself, and LeBron had 16. They gave their team 7 extra possessions and prevented the Warriors from getting another possession 24 times. Those are more important numbers.

[Dresta]

Is that really a stat? :oldlol:

So I guess Curry and Klay's open 3s are stat padding because they're uncontested shots. LeBron's assists are stat padded because the guy he passed it to was open for an uncontested shot.

Rebounding is simple. Grab the board to prevent the opposing team from getting extra possessions. Whether it be LeBron, Thompson, or Irving, you don't want a team like GS getting more possessions. Tristan Thompson had 15 rebounds himself, and LeBron had 16. They gave their team 7 extra possessions and prevented the Warriors from getting another possession 24 times. Those are more important numbers.
No, but a guy who shoots 3s and creates his own offense is better and more impactful than a guy who just stands around waiting to be set up with an open shot--get the difference?

Just like the guy who gets loads of rebounds in traffic (TT) is more valuable on the boards than a guy who gets a large percentage of his when no-one is challenging him for it (Lebron). This isn't that hard to understand.

[Hey Yo]

Kyrie had a TS% of 82%!!! Lebron 61%. And here you are harking on like that's only a small difference. Hint: that's a huge difference. Lebron's performance was good, but Kyrie's was clearly better, and had a bigger impact. Putting up 41 on that kind of efficiency destroys the opposing team. A couple of assists (LEbron had one more than Kyrie) and a bunch of defensive rebounds don't do that.
You'd be creaming your Husky jeans if Wade ever put up 41-16-7-3-3 in a Finals game. You trying to discredit defensive rebounds is hilarious. Can't win the game if you're not rebounding / constantly giving up offensive rebounds....correct??


And yes, Kyrie is having the better finals, because in the two games the Cavs won, he was their most important player, and the guy who blew the game open for them. Why is that so hard for your Lebron-worshipping ass to understand?
How was Kyrie the most important player in game 3 and 5?

He blew the game open? The score was 51-43 at the half?

You do realize teams have comeback when only down by 8 at the half, right?

[Dresta]

You'd be creaming your Husky jeans if Wade ever put up 41-16-7-3-3 in a Finals game. You trying to discredit defensive rebounds is hilarious. Can't win the game if you're not rebounding / constantly giving up offensive rebounds....correct??


How was Kyrie the most important player in game 3 and 5?

He blew the game open? The score was 51-43 at the half?

You do realize teams have comeback when only down by 8 at the half, right?
:biggums:

Wade put up 42/13/2/2, 36/6/3/1/1, 43/4/4/3, 36/10/5/4/3 in four straight NBA finals games, winning all four, and leading his team back from the brink of defeat. If Lebron has 3 more games as good as the last one then and only then will he have performed as well as Wade in an NBA finals.

Lebron has had one good game, where his performance was actually eclipsed by his teammate, who had a better game.

And yes, Kyrie's offensive explosion created the separation that won Cleveland both games. That's undeniable. His efficiency was off the charts last game; anyone who thinks a few defensive rebounds trumps that kind of insane efficiency (on a 40 point game) is a delusional moron (like you).

[Indian guy]

Not to take anything away from Kyrie, who was incredible offensively, but LeBron's defensive dominance pretty clearly trumps their Game 5 performance in his favor, IMO.


LeBron's defense in Game 5 according to NBA sportVU stats:

3-17 FG (18%)
0-5 3P (0%)
1-6 defending rim (17%)

He's allowing 33.9% FG% against Warriors (-14.1% below average) in this series. Kyrie allowing 61% in this series.

And this isn't even getting into LeBron's dominance on the boards and his superior stat line all across the board. He led both teams in every single category. That's insane.

[Indian guy]

Dresta is a Celtic troll, btw. Can't ever recall him displaying the slightest objectivity when it comes to LeBron. His general role on this board over the years has been to troll in Heat or Cavs game threads. Poor kid still hasn't gotten over LeBron claiming his team's soul in 2011 and 2012.

Here's for memories, Dresta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7augZr9C98) :cheers:. I'm sure Game 5 retriggered something terrible for you :oldlol:

[Dresta]

Dresta is a Celtic troll, btw. Can't ever recall him displaying the slightest objectivity when it comes to LeBron. His general role on this board over the years has been to troll in Heat or Cavs game threads. Poor kid still hasn't gotten over LeBron claiming his team's soul in 2011 and 2012.

Here's for memories, Dresta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7augZr9C98) :cheers:. I'm sure Game 5 retriggered something terrible for you :oldlol:
:roll:

I'm glad you've got me so figured out dude.

[Lebron23]

Dresta is a Celtic troll, btw. Can't ever recall him displaying the slightest objectivity when it comes to LeBron. His general role on this board over the years has been to troll in Heat or Cavs game threads. Poor kid still hasn't gotten over LeBron claiming his team's soul in 2011 and 2012.

Here's for memories, Dresta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7augZr9C98) :cheers:. I'm sure Game 5 retriggered something terrible for you :oldlol:


Dude is arguably the dumbest poster in this forum. This fat @$$ is not even a Celtics fan. He's more of a Wadetard. Just like Jwrong he's hating on LeBron even when the Heat was winning in 2012 and 2013.

[NBAGOAT]

Dude is arguably the dumbest poster in this forum. This fat @$$ is not even a Celtics fan. He's more of a Wadetard. Just like Jwrong he's hating on LeBron even when the Heat was winning in 2012 and 2013.

so he's a heat fan... They actually have decent reason to hate on Bron, the insufferable stans give Wade so much shit it's pretty ridiculous.

[And1AllDay]

Kyrie has out played Curry in every game this series minus last night and Kyrie was pretty damn good himself last night too.

Love Curry but Kyrie is poised to be one of the leagues best scorers. 23 years old and absolutely holding his own against the unanimous MVP.

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[TheCorporation]

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